Latest / Booked On Rock with Eric Senich / [EP 434] Metallica, Megadeth, Anthrax & Slayer: The Rivalries That Shaped Metal’s Big Four with Daniel Bukszpan

Transcript

[EP 434] Metallica, Megadeth, Anthrax & Slayer: The Rivalries That Shaped Metal’s Big Four with Daniel Bukszpan · Booked On Rock with Eric Senich

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: When they fired him, after he woke up hungover on
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: the floor of the music building in Queens, New York,
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: which I believe Scott Ian described as a shithole, they're like, okay,
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: you're fired, your bus leaves in an hour, and he's like, okay,
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: don't use my music. They used his music. We're totally booked.
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: Rock and roll! Well, I think I'll leave you to
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: your reading. Little Hand says it's time to rock and roll.
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: Rock and roll!
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: We are totally booked.
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: Welcome back to Booked on Rock, conversations with authors, musicians,
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: and insiders revealing the stories behind classic rock's greatest songs, albums,
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: and artists. I'm Eric Senech. If you're watching on YouTube,
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: hit like and subscribe. If you're listening, follow Booked on
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: Rock on your podcast app. Helps me show potential guests.
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: There's an audience for their stories, so I can keep
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: bringing you conversations just like the one you're about to
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: hear with Daniel Oxman, who is returning today. This time
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: to talk about his book, Heavy Metals, Big Four, How Metallica, Megadeth, Anthrax,
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: and Slayer Reshaped Metal to explore the creative breakthroughs, bitter rivalries,
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: and unlikely decisions behind that rise. Daniel, good to see
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: you again.
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: It's wonderful to be here. Thank you for having me back.
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: I appreciate it very much.
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: Listen, last time I saw you, I was telling you
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: it was on Facebook and you're doing a promo for
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: the book and you're talking about all the places you
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: can read this book. There you are on your toilet.
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: Yes, where all my greatest thoughts are murdered.
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: You will go to any measure to.
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: Promote these books. Listen, I'm not going to pretend I
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: have not read many books on the toilet and that
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: there's just something about that room. You know, maybe it's
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: the isolation. I don't know.
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: That was so great. Who put that together? Is it
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: all you? Did somebody help?
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: Oh, my son did it.
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: He's 19.
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't. know anything about like video editing or
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: anything like that. And he was like, I got you.
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: Don't worry.
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: Oh, I love it. And like you said, it did
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: so well. People were loving it.
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah. You know, I, I, I don't understand like how
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: any of these things work and I'm not like, Oh,
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: you know, you know, how are the, how are the impressions?
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: You know, how are the views across vertical? Like, I'm
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: just not, are we trending?
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: Uh, yeah, but apparently, uh, if I film myself on
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: the toilet, people will watch it.
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: That goes viral. Who knew?
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: Who knew?
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: So this is surprising to read that back in the 80s,
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: you were working at a record store, and they would
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: play these albums by these four bands, and people were like,
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: can you turn this off?
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: And I mean, it's hard to believe, but I guess
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: what were you hearing in that music that they weren't
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: hearing yet?
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: To me... It just didn't sound like anything else. And
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: every time I put it on, I was just like
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: kind of amazed at like, you know, like all the
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: twists and turns that the music takes, you know, to
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: say nothing of just how aggressive and fast and everything
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: it was. I should explain that the record store was
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: right next to Lincoln Center, which is where they have
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: operas and classical performances and stuff like that. And a
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: lot of the people who came in, you might call
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: yuppie scum, I think was what they were known as
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: at the time. And they didn't want to hear this stuff. And,
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: you know, I mean, I get it. It's not for everybody.
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: But it was like you put the tone arm on,
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: among the living would start. And just like all these
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: people would go up to my poor supervisor and be like, oh,
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: my God, take this off. Put on some Crosby, Stills,
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: and Nash. And, uh, no, it was what, to me,
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: the surprise is more that it got popular than like that.
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: It wasn't because, you know, at the, at the time
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: in the eighties, when that music was still kind of
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: new and breaking through, I had no expectation that it
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: would ever get popular. I thought it was completely uncommercial.
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: The mainstream will never go for this stuff in a
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: million years. And also it's like so fast and angry
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: and all of that, it'll just burn itself out. And
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: by like 1989, these bands won't even be together anymore. I,
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: I really saw it that way at the time, but
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: the way it actually played out, you know, with Metallica
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: being the biggest band on earth, I just never saw
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: that coming, you know, and it's, it's still a little amazing.
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you're right. Back in the early to mid eighties,
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: it was a little hard to take. It was, uh,
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: but what was the, what was the moment? What was
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: the breakthrough moment? I mean, I know one by Metallica
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: was a huge moment, but, It had already started building.
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, one, you know, and that album, Injustice
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: for All, really benefited from the fact that Metallica were
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: just always touring and, you know, they really did it
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: the right way. They just played constantly, you know, any
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: place that would have them. Opening for Ozzy Osbourne, also
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: on the Ultimate Sin tour in 1986, really contributed moved
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: the needle uh in a lot of ways for them
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: i think that if we're going to talk about like
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: what was sort of like the the linchpin moment that
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: might that might have been it but leading up to
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: that moment they really got where they got on hard
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: work and on touring and they continued after that to
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: just work hard and tour uh when they broke through
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: with a video and with that album uh You know,
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: to me, there's just nothing commercial about that album at all.
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: And Justice for All, I really feel like it was
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: just the culmination of all their hard work and really
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: doing it, you know, from the grassroots up in a,
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: you know, very do-it-yourself kind of a way. You know,
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: they had, you know, they were on Elektra. So, you know,
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: they had major label money and that sort of thing.
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: But it was always a question of, will the public
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: accept this music? And I was as shocked as anybody
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: when they did. Yeah, it's crazy.
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the video for one was so dark. We're talking
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: about a time when we got glam metal where it's
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: all party rock.
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but that may have been a piece of it though.
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: Maybe it just came along at the right time when
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: maybe people were starting to get past that a little
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: bit and wanted something a little more underground, just a
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: little different from what was out there already that they
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: knew about. You know, that 1989 when they famously lost
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: the heavy metal Grammy to Jethro Tull, a moment we all, well,
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: those of us who were around at the time, but we,
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: you know, we all were like, absolutely couldn't believe that happened. Every,
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: you know, Metallica just performed and it just felt like, okay, well,
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: this is it. This is the coronation. Jethro Tull, you know, but, uh,
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: Lars Ulrich said like, what really mattered is just that
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: they got nominated at all. And I know everyone says
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: that when they don't win the Oscar, they don't win
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: the Grammy, whatever. But he was like, you know, the,
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: the real victory there was just, it showed a lot
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: of people. There's this music out there that is just
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: not like the rest of what you've got going on
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: out there. Uh, and it just, it put that on
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: a lot of people's radar, uh, getting on MTV did also. And, uh,
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: But again, in both of those cases with the Grammys
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: and with MTV, I feel like Metallica had already done
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: the very hard work of just, you know, really bringing
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: it from the ground up. And, you know, I don't
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: think they would have been, you know, signed to Elektra.
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: I don't think they would have had a video done.
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: I don't think they would have gotten a Grammy if
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: they hadn't done all that first. You know, the music
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: industry didn't really open doors for them. They barged through.
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: And the music industry had to kind of accept it. Right.
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah. The fans were speaking up.
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: The numbers kept growing amongst the fan base.
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: The fans spoke. That is absolutely one instance I can
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: think of where it was just absolutely the fans spoke.
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: And even, you know, with the Black Album, I would
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: say the same thing. The fans spoke. And, you know, again,
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: we perhaps like to rag on, you know, that period
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: a little bit or whatever. But, you know, if you
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: look at that video of the performance they did in
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: Moscow in 1991, I think it was called the Tushino Airfield.
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: Those people are pretty enthusiastic in the crowd. And, you know,
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: you can't create that. You can't. There's no record company
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: with the money or any of it to create, like,
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: this huge seething mob of people. Right after a coup attempt,
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: by the way, like, there had been, like, just a
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: few weeks before that, like, there had been an attempt
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: to overthrow the government. So it's still a very dangerous
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: country at the time. And the people are like, we
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: don't care. Metallica, go. That, you know, I don't know
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: how many bands they would do that for, you know?
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they have such an interesting history, too. You go
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: back to the Dave Mustaine years. Anthrax's Scott Ian considered
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: Dave Mustaine Metallica's driving artistic force, according to the book.
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: Talk about what led to the band firing him in 1983,
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: and then how different do you think not just Metallica's
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: story would be, but metal history, if he remained in
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: the band?
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: He liked a bit of the drop, as the Brits say.
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: He did enjoy drinking. As we know, he liked some
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: other things, too. But at the at the time, the
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: issue was his drinking. You know, that's what he was
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: kicked out for. You cannot say enough about this guy's
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: guitar playing, though. And that had to be like really
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: difficult decision to lose him. Uh, you know, regardless of,
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: you know, how many problems there might've been or whatever, because,
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: you know, the guy's just like a phenomenal guitar player.
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: You can't, you cannot take that away from him. Uh,
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: but you know, I mean, the fact that he, you know,
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: kind of brushed himself off and now there's mega death,
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: you know, you, you can't stop him either. You know, I,
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: I kind of agree with what Scott Ian said that he,
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: that he is arguably the godfather of thrash metal. uh,
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: we must give it to him. We must give him
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: credit for that. Uh, you know what I mean? There's,
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: there's some video out there of him, like in the
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: last couple of shows that he played with the band,
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: you know, and he's, he's great, you know, and, um,
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: that had to be an incredibly difficult decision for them. But,
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: you know, he, he later ended up saying like, it
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: was a Dave problem. Dave said that, you know, and like, I,
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: You know, I got fired from my band and lost
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: two of my friends because I was drinking too much. And,
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: you know, he said this like much later after it happened,
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: but he was like, I probably would have fired me too.
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: But he acknowledges all of that, you know, to his credit.
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: But yeah, no, I, that had, but that had to
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: be a really tricky place for them to be in,
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: you know.
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: But isn't it crazy? There is no big four. It's
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: down to three bands if he stays in Metallica.
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the big three.
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: That's all we would have.
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: People wonder what Metallica would have been like if Cliff
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: Burton lived, but what if Dave Mustaine remained in the band?
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: So many what ifs. What ifs. What if there had
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: been bass on Injustice for All?
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: There are so many what ifs, but the story is
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: what it is. Yeah.
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: After they fired Metallica, they reworked the song Mechanics into
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: The Four Horsemen for Kill Em All in 1983. He
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: did get songwriting credit, but he still felt betrayed.
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, when they fired him, after he woke up
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: hungover on the floor of the music building in Queens,
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: New York, which I believe Scott Ian described as a shithole.
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: I think that was his description of it. They're like, okay,
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: you're fired, your bus leaves in an hour, and he's like, okay,
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: don't use my music. They used his music. Yeah, I mean, yes,
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: he was credited for it, but I'm that was pretty clear,
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: don't use my music. You know, and I completely understand,
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: you know, between that and, you know, the four-day bus
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: ride that he had to take back to California. I mean,
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: that is all just really hard stuff. You know what
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: I mean? I really, my heart really goes out to
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: him that he had to go through all that, especially
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: at such a young age. But the fact that he, like,
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: overcame that And, you know, really made a name for
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: himself anyway. I have huge respect for that. That's massive.
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: I don't know if I have the, you know, the
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: strength and the stick-to-itiveness for that. You know, that I
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: could see for a lot of people, you know, they
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: get fired from the band and put on the bus,
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: and that's the last you hear of them. Sure. But
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: he's not a normal guy.
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, because he could have drank himself into oblivion
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: at that point. He drank himself to death.
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he continued to. He continued to drink. He made
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: all that incredible, extremely technical music while he was not
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: exactly lucid all the time. That's another thing. When you
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: listen to everything up to Rust in Peace, those albums
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: were all made while certainly he and Dave Ellison are
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: using heroin. which I would think would make your playing
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: a little sloppy, but somehow these are like the most
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: technically brilliant albums, uh, of the, of the decade.
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: Really.
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: I don't know how they did that.
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: You know, I guess you chalk it up to youth
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: in some aspects.
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: I guess.
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: Uh, let's even, uh, spare her a moment to give
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: thanks for the fact that he's still alive.
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: Right. And that's, that's my point too, is he, He
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: could have been a casualty after.
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: He gets kicked out by Metallica.
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: I mean, he could have just thrown in the towel.
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: Fade to Black is one of my favorite songs. Ride
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: the Lightning is my favorite Metallica album from 1984. And
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: you write about James Heffield losing his prize amplifier. And
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: that inspired the song. How did that experience develop into
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: such a deeply personal song?
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: He said himself that he never... felt like he wanted
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: to take his own life. Like, you know, he wasn't
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: really writing from experience. He was just kind of, like, miserable,
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: you know, because his stuff had been stolen. And it
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: just kind of flowed into that. Like, it was really
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: as simple as that. I think really, like, not enough
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: is said about his abilities as a lyricist and his
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: abilities to, like, really get things across. You know, Juan
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: is a good example of this, too, of kind of
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: taking on the personality of someone else that he sings from,
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: you know, uh, disposable heroes, I think is like there,
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: they have a lot of songs that, uh, from my perspective,
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: he's singing from the point of view of someone else. Uh, that's,
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: that's my read on it. And, you know, again, for
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: fate to black, it was motivated by him losing, losing
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: this ant, but it, it resonated so much with so
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: many people. who did have those kinds of problems and
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: were thinking about, you know, maybe I'm going to end
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: it all. And it struck a chord with them. There
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: was one psychiatrist who I read an article by who
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: said that he believes that song saved people's lives. And
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: I'm inclined to agree. I mean, I just, I remember
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: at the time that it was, there was something about
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: it that, you know, that and a few other things
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: that they did made them, you could get a little
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: bit more emotionally close to their music than you could
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: to Slayer, say. And they just did a really good job,
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: I think, of like, you know, putting themselves in someone
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: else's shoes when it came to writing lyrics.
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there is something melodic to that album, which is
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: why it it connected with somebody like myself who was
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: not into thrash at all. And that around 1988, I
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: think I first heard it. My older brother had the cassette.
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: I wasn't into that music at all, but yet that
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: album is the one that pulled me in. So something
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: to be said there that if they had that songwriting ability,
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: which is kind of that, that is kind of what
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: they did on the black album in a sense with
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: ride the lightning. It's kind of mixed some, I don't
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: want to say pop elements, but you know, the.
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: Music, Yeah.
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: I mean, you had melody. Right. Yeah.
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: I remember, you know, first hearing all this music and
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: I was listening to the song Ride the Lightning specifically.
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: And it has that middle section, like that whole instrumental
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: middle section with the guitar solo and all that. It's
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: incredibly melodic stuff. And I remember the first time I
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: heard it. Being like, oh, this is why Metallica is
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: the band out of all of them that everyone really
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: likes the most. And that even people I knew who
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: didn't listen to any metal at all still liked Metallica.
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: And what I said in the book was that they
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: always remember to put music in their music. And I mean,
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: that's a little silly, but there was always melody. they
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: always had that going and, you know, not so much
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: that it became pop, but enough that anyone could kind
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: of latch onto it and, you know, get taken, taken
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: along for the ride that way.
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: You look at a song like, you know, for whom
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: the bell tolls or creeping death, that's incredibly melodic stuff.
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: It's heavy as hell, obviously the descending chromatic riff on,
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: for whom the bell tolls and the, intro of the
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: song is easily one of the heaviest things I've ever
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: heard in my life, but it's still incredibly melodic, the
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: whole song. And they really had that going for them.
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: That was a real ace in the hole for them,
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: I think.
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: You talked about middle sections. Orion from Master of Puppets
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: from 1986, you call it the album's show stopper. Talk
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: about that middle section, why you feel it reveals Cliff
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: Burton's musical contribution to.
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: The surviving band members to this day say, like, that
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: was pretty much all him. He pretty much, you know,
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: provided that, provided the direction for it. And, you know,
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: there's some stuff on YouTube that's isolated, that's his isolated
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: bass on that song. And the first time I heard it,
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: I didn't even know that it was bass in a
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: lot of the parts. I thought it was lead guitar
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: in various parts of it. I was shocked. Uh, to
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: learn that, like how much of it was really bass
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: and was, you know, his ideas and everything. Um, I
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: also remember, uh, for fun, I love to watch YouTube
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: reaction videos of like young, uh, people from Gen Z
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: hearing this music for the first time. And I saw, uh,
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: I can't remember. I think, uh, Her name is Pink Metalhead,
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: I think. She's a YouTuber. And I watched her react
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: to Orion for the first time. That part of the
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: song happens, and when it's over, she's like, that was
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: the most beautiful thing I've ever heard in my life. And, like,
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: she's crying. And that was not that far off from
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: how I reacted the first time I heard it. It
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: was just, like, a magical, maybe... is the only word
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: I could use. And I, I'd never heard anything like it.
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: And to this day, uh, you know, when I listened
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: to it, it's just, it's this incredibly centering piece of
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: music for me that it kind of like, I was like, oh, right. Yeah. Okay.
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: This is what I like in life. This is this song,
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: you know? Yeah.
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: What a musical mind. Yeah. His death, his death in
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: 86 was just so tragic and they went on without him.
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: As we know, obviously they, his parents gave Jason Newstead, uh,
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: They're a blessing, but the band's unresolved grief helped kind
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: of shape the way they treated Jason, right? They didn't
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: treat him so well in the beginning.
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: I mean, they went back on the road six weeks
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: after the bus accident, which is insane. I think most bands,
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: if they had something like that happen to them, that
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: would be the end of the band. You would never
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: hear from them again. Uh, instead they went back on
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: the road six weeks later. Uh, you know, and I
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: think you can't really question as a business move, uh,
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: whether that was the right thing to do or not,
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: because clearly it was, but, uh, you know, the effect
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: it probably had on them emotionally to just go on,
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: you know, and they look over and it's someone else's
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: playing over there, you know, and they're all like 23
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: years old or something. You know what I mean? That's,
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: that's like a horrible thing. Yeah, and they said themselves
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: they got through it with liquor, which led to other problems,
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: you know. But, yeah, I mean, I really am kind
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: of amazed at how they just kept coming at you
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: all the time, no matter what happened to them. Because, yeah,
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: I mean, really, that should have been the end of
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: the band right there. But, no, in November, they're back
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: on the road, which is bonkers. Yeah.
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: But do you think they've directed that grief towards Jason?
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: Because they all say that that's exactly what happened. You know,
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: and there are people like, you know, in the band's organization,
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: you know, who are like, it was not cool the
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: way they treated him. Jason himself is very gracious and
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: magnanimous about the whole thing. And he's like, look, that
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: was being in Metallica was the greatest experience of my life.
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: It was everything I wanted to do. I owe those
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: guys everything. I played sold-out arenas for 15 years. You know,
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: if you're a professional musician, that's exactly what you want.
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: He speaks very well of them today. So he's not
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: hung up on it. But yeah, I mean, you can
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: see some moments here and there where it's a little like,
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: that maybe was not so fantastic. There's great temptation to
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: say that their grief over Cliff is why there's no
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: base on injustice for all. And I could certainly imagine
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: feeling like that was just purely a dig at him.
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: You think so?
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: No, I don't. The explanation that they gave, you know,
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: they were doing the Monsters of Rock tour at the
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: time when they were mixing it and their ears were
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: completely shot. I believe that, you know, that's like that happens. Uh,
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: you know, and the, and the machine was going really
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: fast and there's no time to remix it. And, you know,
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: they've got all these international dates booked. It was going
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: really fast, you know, and, um, Anthrax had kind of
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: a similar thing happen with state of euphoria with their
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: 1988 album where they had like an iron maiden tour
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: booked and, and there was just this much time, a
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: specific set amount of time to do the whole next record.
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: And they felt like, you know, Probably we needed another
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: month or two for it to really cook and really
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: be right the way we wanted it. But everything was moving. And,
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: you know, business considerations sometimes can overrule artistic considerations, especially
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: when you're young and new. And, you know, if you're
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: Stevie Wonder, they'll wait for you and you can do
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: whatever album you want, take as long as you want.
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: No one's going to stop you. But these were still
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: relatively new guys, and they just didn't have years in
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: the business yet and didn't really know how to be like, no, wait,
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: pump the brakes. We need to do this differently.
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: That's a good segue to get into the sound of
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: Slayer's album, Rain and Blood, from 1986. We'll get into
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: Slayer now. That album was produced by Rick Rubin. Strips
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: away the heavy reverb. Yep. How do you feel that
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: decision affected the sound of the album? Positive, negative?
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: In my opinion, it was brilliant, exactly what needed to happen.
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: And I have said previously that he earned all of
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: his money by walking into the studio, going up to
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: the reverb knob, and just turning it off. Miracle. Because
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: the previous Slayer albums, it's just a sea of reverb.
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: It's really hard to pick anything out. And it wasn't
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: until they took all that away that you could really
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: hear what they were doing. And it was actually incredibly
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: precise music. But prior to that, with all the reverb,
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: you couldn't really tell. It just kind of sounded like
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: this wash of mud that was very hard to see
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: any of the details in. There is no such problem
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: on Rain and Blood. And I think, to me, it's
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: one of the best sounding albums ever made. Just it's
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: everything it needed to be. And, you know, might be
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: nice if it was longer than 29 minutes. But at
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: the same time, I don't want to change anything about it.
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: You know, it's perfect. It's exactly what it needed to be.
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: And of the big four and all the records they made,
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: that's my favorite one to this day. And that's no
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: disrespect to any of the other bands, but I still listen.
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: I'm 57 years old. And I still listen to Rain
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: and Blood all the time. You would have thought I
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: would have outgrown it by now.
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: Nothing doing. Yeah.
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: Well, one of the tracks on that album prompted Columbia
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: to refuse distribution, which was Angel of Death, which Jeff Hanneman,
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: the guitarist, wrote about the Nazi doctor Josef Mengele.
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So- Did his intention differ from what the critics heard?
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: What was his take on it?
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: Oh, his father was a World War II veteran who
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: had killed Nazis and actually had taken, like, artifacts off
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: of their bodies. Brings them home. He has this huge
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: collection that, like, you know, little Jeff Hanneman as a
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: child is looking through, you know, seeing the SS medals
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: and all that sort of thing. And to him, it's
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: all like, wow, that's really interesting stories from my dad. Uh,
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: but for a lot of people, uh, just the subject
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: matter is enough to make them just not want to
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: hear it. Uh, I kind of get it. And I
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: can remember a lot of times where I would be
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: playing that record for people for the first time. That's
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: the first song. And the first word is Auschwitz right there.
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: You're going to lose people, you know, who they they're not,
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: and they're not even going to want to hang around
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: for the explanation. Of like, no, actually, it's Jeff Handman's fop.
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: They just they hear that. It's like, goodbye out. And
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: I get it, you know, but it was a good
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: thing that they didn't listen to Columbia and that they
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: kept it on the record because that song, you know,
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: that's that's there more than a feeling. Right.
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: That may be their best.
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: They close every show with it. That's the one. That's
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: their free bird. That's the one everyone wants to hear.
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: And I can't imagine that record starting with Piece by
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: Piece instead. It just wouldn't work. But yeah, my God,
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: I can never say enough about that song or that album.
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: Daniel Buckspan, our guest. Brand new book, Heavy Metal's Big Four,
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: How Metallica, Megadeth, Anthrax, and Slayer Reshaped Metal. It's out
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: November 10th. So by the time you're listening to this,
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: that book is out now. So let's talk about Anthrax now.
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: Guitarist Dan Spitz called Joey Belladonna the Steve Perry of
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: aggressive metal. Yes. Yeah. How did his melodic voice help
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: the band find that identity? You point to the band's
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: second album, Spreading the Disease, as that one where he
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: stands out. That's from 1985.
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: Oh, sure. Well, I do want to take a moment
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: to mention Neil Turbin, who's on the first album, Unfistful
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: of Metal. Very good singer. Total Rob Halford worship. If
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: you listen to that, pretty much from the second the
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: guy opens. his mouth, it's like, oh, this guy listens
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: to a lot of Rob Halford. And, you know, Joey Belladonna,
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: I feel, was maybe a little bit more versatile. You know,
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: and it wasn't all beautiful either. Like, there's stuff he does,
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: certainly on Among the Living, that's like very metal, you know? Um, no,
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: but they said like when he came into audition for
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: the first time, he looked like a member of white
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: snake and the first song he did was hot blooded
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: by foreigner. Great tune, by the way. Um, but no, it,
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: it didn't sound like everything else, you know, and it,
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: I feel like it gave them, you know, a pretty distinct, uh,
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: sort of a flavor. Uh, I thought it was a
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: little weird when they got rid of him. Cause I
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: just didn't really see anything wrong with his singing, but
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: you know, in the nineties, it really got to be like,
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: if you sound too much like a classic metal singer, uh,
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: you may encounter problems. Uh, but I, I always liked him.
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: I always thought he was good for what they did. And, uh, just,
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: he he's done some things, you know, the, him being
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: back in the band, I think kind of speaks for itself. And,
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: you know, that he's really kind of considered the voice
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: of Anthrax, even though they've had three singers. Again, that
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: speaks for itself. He's kind of the last man standing,
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: you know?
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: I think I still have the cassette single of I'm
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: the Man. I think I have it in my attic somewhere.
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: It started as a novelty B-side in 1987, but then
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: huge crowds, they knew every word when they played it.
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: In England. In England.
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: Why were they able to connect so strongly with metal fans?
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: Did the success of the Run DMC Aerosmith Walk This
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: Way help pave the way for that?
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: Maybe. I just think rap itself, from what I remember,
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: because I was like 16, 17 around the time this
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: was happening, Run DMC, I think, should definitely get more
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: credit in this discussion. They really kind of put things
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: on the map. For white audiences, shall we say, for
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: white rock audiences.
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: Just did an episode on Live Aid. I forgot they
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: were at Live Aid.
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Oh, yeah. What was it?
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: Run D & C.
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: And the people they paid and everyone, you know, I
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: can barely remember it.
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: But that just shows you they were crossover.
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they were a big deal, you know, and I
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: remember that. at the time that, you know, them being
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: kind of like along with everything else people were listening to, like,
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: you know, Phil Collins, Michael Jackson, Madonna, they were kind
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: of in the mix there. I think it was just
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: music people just sort of gravitated to right when they
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: heard it. And it's a lot of fun. And anthrax weren't,
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: the thing about them is they were not afraid to
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: be seen smiling or enjoying themselves or doing fun things.
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: Scott Ian said, there's no smiling in Slayer. There is
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: smiling in Anthrax. And that I think is one of
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: the things also that set them apart was you could
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: tell they were having fun with it and they were
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: enjoying what they were doing. It wasn't grim, you know,
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: the whole time. But I also know some people who just,
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: who like hated them for that. And, you know, we're like,
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: oh my God, what are the, oh, they're bringing rap
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: into the, oh God, this is horrible.
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: Sure. Oh, yeah, because that's early on in the game still.
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and there were a lot of, like, rock people,
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: I remember at the time, who not only didn't like rap,
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: but thought it was this, like, passing thing.
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: Sure.
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: And it'll be gone in two years. And the exact
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: opposite happened, as we know. And there got, I remember
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: there got to be a lot of overlap, you know,
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: but I think, like, Rage Against the Machine usually are
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: the ones who really get credited with, like, melding rap
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: and metal in a way where it was its own
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: genre by itself. But there was a lot leading up
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: to that. You know, Public Enemy sampled Slayer on one
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: of their records. You know, so there had already been
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: some kind of, like, you know, cross-pollinization going on by
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: the time Rage came along. But I feel like Anthrax
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: were a really big part of that, and they definitely...
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: belong in that discussion for sure.
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: Isn't it crazy right now rap rap went on to
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: become the rock and roll of this generation in that
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: it's dangerous it's music your parents don't want you to
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: listen to.
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: Rock became safe uh and to be honest with you
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: i felt like thrash metal was maybe like the last
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: gasp of not safe rock And eventually, yeah, like hip hop, rap,
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: stuff like that, it just seemed a lot more dangerous
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: to white audiences.
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: And where rock had become kind of like, all right,
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: we've done that already. That's, you know, it's played out.
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: I mean, when I started hearing Highway to Hell in
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: Disney films, I was like, wow.
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: It's like something has changed. Yeah.
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: I mean, the essence of rock and roll is it's
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: just supposed to scare the shit out of your parents.
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: Like they do not want their children listening to this.
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: No, they're using... That's the excitement of rock and roll. Well,
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: they're using Stairway to Heaven in... There's this new version
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: of Chronicles of Narnia.
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: I saw that trailer, yeah.
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and that song has never been licensed before. I'm
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: old enough to remember people saying, if you play that
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: song backwards, it has satanic messages that will creep into
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: your soul. And now it's in the Narnia movie. A
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: lot has changed. You know, since we were younger people,
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: you know, and even though Billy Corgan of Smashing Pumpkins
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: had this fascinating theory that it was actually the CIA that,
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: you know, made rock kind of like get pushed to
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: the side.
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: I heard him talk about that.
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: No, that's not what happened. I'm sorry. Rock, it kind
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: of ran out, you know, like by the 90s, it
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: was kind of like. okay, we get it. You know,
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: rock guitars. Great. We got it. Uh, and it was
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: time for the next thing, you know, and there are
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: a lot of people, uh, like metal people who are
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: like Nirvana killed metal. And it's like, it didn't things end.
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: That's what happened. And certainly I remember like in the
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: late eighties, metal was just, it just became so oversaturated.
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: And there was so much on MTV and everything. And
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: so many of these bands were just awful and were
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: formed solely because metal was popular. The clock is ticking
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: once you're doing that. Also, the grunge bands that came along,
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: I believe, got treated even worse than the thrash metal
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: bands did and were the kind of beloved... for an
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: even shorter period of time. It's the music business. That's
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: what they do, and that's how they treat artists.
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, if there is a chance for rock and roll
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: to come back, it would be something like that. I
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: tell you, one band that I'm loving is this... Have
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: you heard of Wet Leg?
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: That girl's the shit, man. She's got an attitude. She's
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: got stage presence. The lyrics are... Again, this is not
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: something a parent would want their kid to listen to.
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: And I'm like, I watched... I don't know how I,
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: I don't know how I got, got turned on to them,
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: but I was like, yeah, this is rock and roll.
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: It's got attitude. It's, it's got some swagger. It's dangerous. It's,
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: it's raunchy and it's, and it's catchy at the same time.
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: I love it.
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: I love it. I'm liking also that we're seeing a
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: lot more women, uh, playing rock now. Like the, I,
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: I feel like the, a lot of the gatekeeping, uh,
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: maybe hasn't ended, but there have just been too many, uh,
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: you know, talented women musicians coming in to stop them.
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: And I feel like in the last 10 years, especially,
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: they've been like really asserting themselves, especially in metal. It's
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: fantastic to see. I love it. You know what I mean?
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: If there's going to be some kind of renaissance for
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: the music or anything like that, I believe they're going
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: to be leading the way.
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: And that's not just me trying to be woke because
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: Democrats won the election. I honestly believe that. Yeah. Sorry.
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: No, I didn't hear.
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: Did that happen? Did that happen? Yeah, I don't know.
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: That was in the news? There were some rumors about it.
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: So Megadeth is next. Let's talk about them. Hangar 18
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: from 1990's Rush and Peace. 11 guitar solos.
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: 11 guitar solos.
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: But it's interesting. You say it doesn't sound like Dave
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: Mustaine and Marty Friedman are just taking turns. It feels
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: like it's more of a natural musical conversation between the two.
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think so. Marty Friedman does not agree. He
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: said something recently that he felt like he and Mustaine
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: maybe didn't mesh together as well as he would have liked.
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: I thought they sounded fantastic together. I thought they complemented
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: each other incredibly well. I think in the book I
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: even compared them to the two guys from Thin Whizzy,
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: which I don't know if they would agree. either Thin
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: Lizzy or Megadeth, you know, but I mean, they're, you know,
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: they're just, they're incredibly good musicians and they're going to
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: be sensitive. to what they're hearing the other guy do.
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: Especially when you have someone like Marty Friedman, who's just
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: like mad scientist level musician, you know, they sort of
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: can't help but respond to each other. But that's always
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: been in the picture, though, with Megadeth. The other guitar
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: player who's not Mustaine kind of has a job to
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: do also. I have to be as good as this guy. Originally,
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: when the band was starting out, they had Kerry King
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: from Slayer come in just at the very beginning. And
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: Dave Ellison was saying that they had a lot of
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: guitar players come in. And Kerry King was the only
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: one who could immediately mirror what Dave was doing and
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: just get every bit of it note for note perfectly.
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: I cannot say enough about what an amazing guitar player
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: Dave Mustaine is and how if you want to be
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: in that band, you've got your work cut out for
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: you because you must be, if not his equal, you
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: have to at least be his counterpart. Otherwise, it's going
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: to be like, oh my God, that's amazing. Wait, who's
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: this guy? He sucks. Oh my God, that's amazing. Wait,
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: this guy sucks. Everything has to be at the same level.
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: What I like about Megadeth is, and I can't say
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: I'm a huge Megadeth fan where I know every single song,
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: so I could be off on this, but songs like
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: Symphony of Destruction, there's a groove to Megadeth that sets
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: them apart from Metallica and those other bands. It's got
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: a really cool... And like you say, Mustaine on guitar,
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: those riffs are undeniable. Was a song like Symphony of Destruction,
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: was that the band at their peak?
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: I would have to put it at Rust in Peace myself,
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: I think is kind of, but you know, I mean,
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: at the same time.
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: It was the commercial peak, but artistically.
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: No, musically, I feel like that album is pretty hard
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: to beat. Peace sells also, I feel is pretty hard
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: to beat. One thing I must say, however, this is
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: very important. I have never been able to get behind
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: Dave Mustaine's voice. That has been a huge problem for
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: me that I've never been able to get past. Fantastic
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: guitar player, incredible musician. I can take nothing away from
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: him as far as that's concerned. Get a singer, please.
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: I beg of you. But again, I think it's a
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: little too late for that.
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: Are you in the minority on that or are there
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: others that feel that way?
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: Uh, no, I've, I've talked to a lot of, uh,
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: one guy I talked to was like, yeah, it sounds
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: like someone stepped on a cat.
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: Which I don't know about, but, uh, it, it works
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: for what they do. Uh, I don't, you know, I mean,
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: I don't think he could sing like, uh, I don't
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: think he could sing ballads very well. I don't, you know,
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: I couldn't see him singing blues.
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: I think it works for certain songs. Like you mentioned
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: smashing pumpkins, Billy Corgan has that voice too, where it
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: works really well.
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: He fucking sucks. I absolutely hate everything about everything. Okay.
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: Cause I feel like his voice fits in really well
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: in certain songs. And then others it's, it's kind of
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: like what you say about mistake.
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: Oh my God. No, no, my God. I would, I
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: would rather listen to Dave Mustaine all day. Yeah. Two
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: minutes of Billy Corgan is that's like someone putting a
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: screwdriver in my ear. And personally.
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: So in other words, you're not a fan.
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: Uh, well, are we talking just about his music or
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: his shit personality?
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: So over two. Okay.
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Um, you know, he just, he, he just needs
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: anytime he starts talking or whatever. I'm just like, can you,
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: can you like not, can you just not. Yeah.
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: Not a fan.
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: Huh?
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: And I've, I've like, I, yeah, I remember when, Gish
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: came out. I think that was their first record.
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: That was the first one.
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And all my friends were like, oh my God,
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: you've got to hear this. And I was just like,
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: what's wrong with you? This is awful. What the hell
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: are you talking? But again, I am wrong. They have
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: sold millions of records. People love them. Fine. But my,
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: oh Jesus. Oh God. No, absolutely not.
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: No, but I love it, man. You're honest. That's your opinion.
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: That's this is all subjective. This is all subjective, which
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: you need to talk about opinions. The black album, right?
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: That, that one elicits quite a few opinions. You do
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: praise sad, but true, but you find the faster songs
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: like holier than now, less convincing. What makes the slower
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: approach work better for you? I would think the faster would.
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: The slower stuff to me sounds more sincere and like
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: what they really wanted to do with that record. And
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: the faster stuff just sounds like they're trying to check
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: a box. And I think that would be a much
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: stronger record if they had left Holier Than Thou or
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: The Struggle Within, if those just weren't on the record.
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: I don't think they really add anything. And to me,
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: it's kind of them going like, look, we didn't totally
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: sell out. Look at us.
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: Right, right, right. That's to appease the older fans who
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: maybe wanted something like that.
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: And it didn't. So it didn't even work for that reason. Uh,
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: but yeah, I mean, I think when, when that record
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: sticks to what, uh, like the God that failed, I
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: think is great. Um, uh, Oh, my friend of misery,
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: I think is great. There are these like Epic tracks
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: on that album, uh, that I, I'm like, yeah, more
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: of this. This is great. Uh, I do not like
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: the ballads that will not surprise you. Although I'm not
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: mad at them for doing it. but I just, I
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: felt like that record is kind of at its best,
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: you know, when it's like sad, but you know, the
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: kind of more plodding light heavy.
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: So you're not a fan of the unforgiven.
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: It's not terrible. Uh, and, uh, nothing else matters is
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: just awful. Like, um, like that's, that's almost Billy Corgan
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: level for me. So the unforgiven sounds amazing compared to that,
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: you know? Um, But I will also say that I
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: wish that And Justice for All had the production of
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: the Black Album. Because just with some bottom end, my God,
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: And Justice for All would be unstoppable.
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: That was Bob Rock on Black Album, yeah.
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, he got them exactly what they wanted.
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: And in terms of the slower songs being what they
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: really wanted to do and you feeling like those are
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: the things that sell the best for them. I remember
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: feeling kind of the same way when Load came out,
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: where I was like, the stuff that they're doing here
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: that's like the most experimental and more out there seems
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: to be what they really want to be doing. And
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: there are all these other songs on there that are
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: like more straightforward, but they're kind of filler. Like, it
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: doesn't feel to me like Cure or King Nothing is like...
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: like what, what's the artistic reason for those to be
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: there where like, you know, even something that gets a
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: lot of guff, like mama said, uh, which I know
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: a lot of people like just started rioting in the
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: streets when that happened. I listened to it and I'm like, no, that's,
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: that's interesting. And they wanted to do that. And I
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: think that's cool, man.
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah. They got some, some balls to some of the decisions.
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: I mean, Lulu with, with Lou Reed, I mean, I
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: knew they were going to face backlash on that. They
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: knew it.
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah. And, or how about St. Anger? St.
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: Anger. I mean, that's the courage to do that and
• 47:14
  Speaker 2: knowing like, we're going to get shit on here. We,
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: you know, we're hoping that we're going to gain some traction,
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: maybe gain some fans here, but get ready. Cause we're
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: going to get, we're going to get hit with shrapnel
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: here when this comes out.
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: I mean, as they were getting hit with shrapnel for
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: fade to black, uh, just any, any, Any deviation they made,
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: I mean, I remember there were people saying Master of
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: Puppets was them selling out. Crazy.
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: If they only knew, those fans.
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: Get ready.
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but I mean, you look back now and really
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: it's like every record is different. Yeah. That's the point.
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: And I have to say, I feel like that has
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: really helped guarantee their success because there's always this element of,
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: you know, wow, there's a new Metallica record coming out.
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: I have no idea what it's going to sound like.
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: There are a lot of people, of course, who are like, wow,
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: there's a new Metallica record coming out. I hope this
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: is the one where they go all the way back
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: to sounding like Master of Puppets again. It will never happen.
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: No, because they're going to tell you we already made
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: Master of Puppets.
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And I should say also, I'm one of those
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: people where if I hear they're having a new album out,
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: I'm like, maybe, maybe this time, maybe. And it never is. Right, right.
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: But no, I never succeeded in sitting through all of Lulu.
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: because that's just pain. Yeah. But I respect the hell
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: out of them. I'm with the same mindset. Let's alienate
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: all of our fans. Let's get rid of everybody.
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, just so courageous artistically, yet I will never listen
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: to it. I think I listened to it to finish once.
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: And I just cannot listen to it ever again. However,
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: I just find that that's, again, I respect them. Because
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: I just did an episode, Daniel, on Lou Reed's Metal
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: Machine Music.
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: David Holzer wrote a book on that. Nobody's taking a risk.
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: That i mean that is it's one hour of guitar
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: feedback yep i mean that is that's amazing to me.
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: There might be there might be like some grateful dead
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: encore or some butthole surfers encore right that's just an
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: hour of feedback but nobody was like okay we're gonna
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: package that and release it to.
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: The public yeah yeah within a couple weeks time uh
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: RCA was like the most returned album. People were like,
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: and the author, David Holds, was saying one guy he
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: talked to, he thought it was a dud, like it
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: was a misfire when he got it. It was a mistake.
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: Buys another copy. It's the exact same thing. And he's like, oh, shit,
• 49:54
  Speaker 2: this is not a mistake.
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: That's what happened to me with Injustice for All. I
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: thought something was wrong with my speakers. Right, with the bass.
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: And so I bring it to other people's houses and
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: be like, maybe this time. But no, that was... what
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: they meant. No, but I met metal machine music is like, that's,
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: that's on the list of like top five. Like we're
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: getting rid of everybody. Anybody who ever bought one of
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: my records, see, you know, suck on this, see how you.
• 50:21
  Speaker 2: Can make this. But as a music fan, a rock fan,
• 50:23
  Speaker 2: like a rock journalist kind of mindset that I have,
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: I'm fascinated with that story.
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: Like absolutely.
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: What would compel somebody to do that? You know, it's like,
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: I would rather hear why a kiss made music from
• 50:34
  Speaker 2: the elder than You know, rather than maybe a hit album, maybe.
• 50:38
  Speaker 2: You know what I mean? Like, those stories are just fascinating. Like,
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: what would compel a man to put out an album?
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: Music from the Elder is actually my favorite Kiss album.
• 50:45
  Speaker 2: There you go.
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: And I actually pitched to Quarto that I want to
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: do a Music from the Elder book. Oh, please. And
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: minutes later, I get this email back from my publisher. No. Okay. Which,
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: I get it. I understand.
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: Didn't you?
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: The story of like that they, they had this, this,
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: like this great idea and we're going to, and it's
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: going to be a movie and we're going to have sequels.
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: And then it's just like rejected.
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: Did you read, I was a Julian Gill wrote a
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: book on that.
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: Oh, he did. Oh, okay. I thought no one, but
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: no one wrote a book on that. No one talks
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: about it. No one, you know, it's, it's really considered
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: like just, they, they just went off. That's terrible. Uh,
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: I think there's great stuff on that record. I also
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: agree with Paul Stanley, who said of his own singing
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: on it, that there are some things where he sounds
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: like alfalfa from The Little Rascal.
• 51:40
  Speaker 2: But there's some great moments on there. Some really cool
• 51:43
  Speaker 2: tracks on there.
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: Under the Rose. Under the Rose is fantastic.
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: And all the Ace stuff on there. But yeah, yeah,
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: here it is.
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: And Lou Reed co-wrote some of the songs. Yeah, you're right.
• 51:55
  Speaker 2: That's speaking of.
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 51:58
  Speaker 2: Let's see.
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: Julian Gill, Tim McFate wrote Odyssey music from the elder.
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: That's a book that is out there, a free plug.
• 52:08
  Speaker 1: Gene and Paul didn't try to stop it. Right. Right.
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: But getting back to, to your book, which is out now.
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: Let's finish out with a few more questions. Cause I
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: want to ask you about the, the big four show
• 52:21
  Speaker 2: at Yankee stadium, 2011. That's Scottie and talked about that. And,
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: his greatest moment as a musician. What did that night
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: represent in your opinion?
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: It represented as, as he said in his own memoir.
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: And as I quoted in my book, maybe we just
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: stayed around long enough that we outlasted all the bullshit.
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: And that's absolutely how I see it. You know, in the,
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: in the nineties, this music really, there's this huge downturn.
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: And like, I think of the, of the four bands,
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: I think Anthrax got it the worst because, Like, they
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: really had problems. Everyone had a little bit of a,
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: you know, like even Load did not sell as well
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: as the Black album, you know. It did well, but
• 53:05
  Speaker 1: you just, the glory days are over. Slayer probably did
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: okay because they were just never the most commercial ones
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: of them anyway. And they stuck to their, like, we're fast,
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: we're satanic, it's devil music. So there wasn't really a
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: cliff for them to fall off of. But Anthrax, especially
• 53:28
  Speaker 1: with Sound of White Noise, were ascended. They were doing
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: really well. And then the label is just like, we're
• 53:35
  Speaker 1: not even going to promote your records. They really got
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: treated badly by their label, and the 90s were incredibly
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: difficult for them. And to me, the big four shows were...
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: In a lot of ways, it was like for all
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: four of them to be like, wow, we got through that.
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: We survived that. That's amazing that we're still intact on
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: the other end of it. You know, and I'm going
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: to include Slayer in this too. They're all still together,
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: all these bands. You know, Slayer only get together for
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: a few shows or whatever, like the 40th anniversary thing
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: they just did for Rain and Blood. But people are
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: still going. People still want to hear it. Uh, and
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: the big four shows to me were all of them
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: kind of saying like, okay, we're all pushing 50 here and,
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: you know, we kind of proved what we have to
• 54:30
  Speaker 1: prove and we're still out there. And so maybe this
• 54:34
  Speaker 1: is a really good time to kind of, you know,
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: like shed all the like beef we've had with each
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: other or, you know, like whatever stupid problems we had
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: along the way and just be grateful that we're all alive. And.
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: still playing this music and a stadium full of people
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: still wants to hear it. That's, I mean, to me,
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: it's a celebration of, wow, people still give a shit. Yeah.
• 54:57
  Speaker 2: You went the distance, man. You kept going.
• 54:59
  Speaker 1: And, and still they kept going.
• 55:01
  Speaker 2: You kept going.
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 55:05
  Speaker 2: All right. Let's finish with a quick fire. Big four round. Okay.
• 55:09
  Speaker 2: Which big four band has the best debut album?
• 55:12
  Speaker 1: I'm going to really get in trouble and say Anthrax.
• 55:15
  Speaker 2: Okay. Yeah.
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: No one agrees with me. Right.
• 55:19
  Speaker 2: Who has the strongest singer?
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: Uh, for that, I would have to say Metallica. Okay.
• 55:26
  Speaker 2: The best guitar duo.
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: Uh, I'm going to go again with, uh, Dave Mustaine and, uh,
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: Marty Friedman. Although massive respect to Chris Poland. He's fantastic.
• 55:38
  Speaker 2: Best drummer of the big four.
• 55:40
  Speaker 1: Dave Fonbardo. Okay.
• 55:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I think most people would agree.
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Charlie Benanti is just like a hair behind him, though.
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: If only Dave Lombardo was not there, he would be
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: number one for me.
• 55:55
  Speaker 2: And a big Kiss fan, Charlie Benanti.
• 55:57
  Speaker 1: I know, yeah, but I don't hold that against him.
• 56:00
  Speaker 2: And who is the best live band?
• 56:03
  Speaker 1: That would have to be Slayer. Okay. Yeah, I nearly
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: got killed at a couple of their shows. And to me,
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: that's the barometer of how good is this band. How
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: close to death did you come?
• 56:15
  Speaker 2: All right for everybody watching and listening do you agree
• 56:18
  Speaker 2: disagree with daniel where uh do you agree or disagree
• 56:22
  Speaker 2: let us know leave your picks in the in the comments.
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: And they will have all kinds of problems with everything
• 56:27
  Speaker 1: i just said.
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: That's it for the last hour yes slinging shit your
• 56:31
  Speaker 2: way so but that's okay that's okay we like opinions
• 56:34
  Speaker 2: we welcome opinions heavy metals big four how metallica mega
• 56:37
  Speaker 2: death anthrax and slayer reshaped metal out november 10th so
• 56:40
  Speaker 2: by the time this episode is out the book is
• 56:42
  Speaker 2: out it's wherever books are sold Look for it at
• 56:45
  Speaker 2: your nearest bookstore, independent bookstores maybe. Hopefully have a copy there.
• 56:49
  Speaker 2: If not, tell them to get one, booktownrock.com. You can
• 56:51
  Speaker 2: find your nearest independent bookstore. And Daniel, where can people
• 56:54
  Speaker 2: find you online?
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: My website is notoriousbuk.com. And I'm on Facebook and Instagram
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: just under my own name, Daniel Buckspan. And I'm out there.
• 57:08
  Speaker 1: So come and find me.
• 57:11
  Speaker 2: Awesome. And you got plans for the next book? In
• 57:15
  Speaker 2: the works?
• 57:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's done already. It comes out next year. It's
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: 99 Moments That Defined Heavy Metal. Oh, cool. It comes
• 57:22
  Speaker 1: out next September. Okay. And I'm in discussions for other stuff, too.
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: So you have to invite me back to hear about that.
• 57:31
  Speaker 2: Don't give up on that music from the other book,
• 57:33
  Speaker 2: because I will have you on for that one.
• 57:36
  Speaker 1: I wanted to write this big four book since I
• 57:38
  Speaker 1: was 18. Really? So 39 years. Hopefully it takes a
• 57:43
  Speaker 1: little less time to do a music from the elder book.
• 57:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, let's see. But you're welcome back to do that
• 57:49
  Speaker 2: one too.
• 57:50
  Speaker 1: When I'm 96, I'll come back on.
• 57:53
  Speaker 2: All right, Daniel. Thanks so much, man. I always love
• 57:55
  Speaker 2: talking to you.
• 57:55
  Speaker 1: Thank you for having me.
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: That's it. It's in the books.