Latest / WCHS Network Podcasts / Let's Talk with Carl Lee: Diminishing Black Participation in Baseball and Defining Greatness in Sports

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Let's Talk with Carl Lee: Diminishing Black Participation in Baseball and Defining Greatness in Sports · WCHS Network Podcasts

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Yeah, you gotta work. You gotta work, cry sign It's mine gotta
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show. Everybody is mine. Sign you gotta work, cry Son Another mind
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from Saga Dog to day Line, Don't Tell You Gotta Burt. Welcome to
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Let's Talk with Carl Lee, where sports, culture and community intersect. Joined
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Carl and frequent co host Hollis Lewis as they dive into engaging conversations with guests
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from all walks of life. Let's Talk is probably presented by Attorney Frank Walker
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Real Talk, Real Experience, Real Results, Frank Walker Law dot com.
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Let that conversation begin on Let's Talk. Welcome to Let's Talk with Carl Lee,
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where we dive into and attack sometimes I think, Hollis. We attack
0:54
some issues and have some disagreements, which is always always pretty good. We
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are proudly sponsored by Attorney Frank Walker, Real Talk, Real Experience, Real
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Results. You can visit Frank Walker at Frank Walker Law dot com for more
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information, and you can catch all of our shows on Sunday at one o'clock
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and Thursday at seven pm on five ad WHS. If you miss any of
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the episodes, you could go to wchsnetwork dot com slash Let's Talk and listen
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to it online. You can follow us on Facebook at Let's Talk with carl
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Lee for updates and more. So today's show we have we have a gentleman
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that I know from way back in the day in high school. Was a
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baseball player. One of the interesting things to me was he was one of
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the first black baseball players that I saw that played at South Charleston High School.
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He was all state player seventy eight, seventy seventy was it top?
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And let me just bring you in, Todd, Let me bring you in,
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Tyrone Hall. How were you doing, my brother? Oh yeah,
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I'm doing good, brother man. Hello everybody, West Virginia man, I
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love you guys. Yeah. I was South Charleston High Actually I from about
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seventy six, seventy seven seventy eight, graduating seventy eight. But I played
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baseball, was All state seventy seven and seventy eight. And one of one
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of the things that well, let me make sure that you know my my
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co host is Hollis Lewis. Hey, how you doing, sir? Hey?
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How you doing all right? I coached Hollis and I coached Hollis at
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West Virginia State super successful brother here in the state of West Virginia. He's
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doing all the little political stuff and being great at it. So I'm super
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proud of him, and and and he is. He's a great guy.
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Even though on this show we tend to fight. So so trust me,
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if you go back, I know you have been talking about trying to go
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back and check some of the some of the episodes, you will catch us
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doing some kind of fighting, some kind of disagree because that's and at the
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end of the day, that's that's the enjoyment of the show, all right.
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So let's jump into this this topic that can always be a little I
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guess it can always be a little bit of a touchy touchy feeling for some
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folks. But there's been this conversation, this talk about the decline of black
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athlete black baseball players at the professional ranks. I think it's like a six
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or seven percent. It's down from like fifteen. I think it was highest
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thirty one at one point, as Hollis is saying it was, it was
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thirty percent, and it's dropping. But when you go back to tell me
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some of the like it was it was loan super low numbers back in the
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day. So tell me kind of a little bit about what your experience was
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as one of the few black baseball players. And let's start with your high
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school at South Charleston High School. How was How was that? Because you
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were good and and I remember you playing and all of that. Tell me
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did you feel any of that or what was happening? You know? Manuh,
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to be honest, I at that time, I have to go back
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even before high school for me when it comes to baseball, because as you
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know, as we grew up called, I mean, it's it was a
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love, man, that you had of that game early on, where I
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played little league and Babe Ruth and and high school. You had just had
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the love for the game. And it's just sad to see where that today
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it really is. But school, you know, I you know, when
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we played baseball, I mean, let's take a look at it. I
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was the only black guy on my high school team. And uh, at
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that point in time. Now, even though we were a powerhouse baseball team
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at that time and coming from South Charleston as well as you know all the
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other sports, we performed well then as well. But uh, you know,
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it's just sad to see where it's at and where it's going. And
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I did build that, no doubt about it in many ways. You know,
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various places I went to play and and things of that nature. Being
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black was was was something that you know, it was, Uh, it
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was. It was tough you go in the communities that you hear that in
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word and and uh but we would just overlook that and just uh just play
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ball. And uh but it's just for me, uh, looking at the
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numbers and where baseball's at today. Uh because right now and I live out
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in Seattle, Washington, and you know, I've gotten involved with baseball,
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and you know, it was a hot topic for me because I don't see
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many African American players out in the sport today. And I'm talking a little
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league and I coach out here. And what levels have you coached at?
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You mentioned little league? Have you coached at the high school level or I
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have coached not at the high school level? Actually I coached. And the
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reason I did this, I think for me, why it's so important.
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Man, This game is established early on in the hearts of little children,
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and I'm talking ages eight, nine, ten, eleven, like it was
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for me, and I wanted to get involved with Little League and Babe Ruth
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baseball. Now they call select baseball and high school level select baseball. Ill
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I did coach a select team out here that was high school level, but
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not in the high school and uh, but you know, and one of
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the things that's always puzzled me why I would always say to myself, where
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are the black athletes? Where are they at? Now? Let me ask
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you this, do you do you think it was because of the Little League
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programs moving out of the inner cities and being more travel ball as opposed to
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you know, community baseball. You know, there is no doubt about it.
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To me, no doubt about it. And what I mean by that
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is, you know they say when you ask people this question, they said,
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well more most kids nowadays, they sit behind a little computer. They
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want to they want to, you know, if they played in sports,
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are going to play basketball, play football. They want to be like Lebron
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James or or you know, or Carl Lee or you know some of the
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guys, some of the great uh you know that's out here today. But
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the truth of the matter is, no one's is going into these inner city
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commun unities and helping these kids to recruit these guys come out in these communities
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like they did when I grew up, because the love is still there.
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These kids still want to play, trust me, they want to play.
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If you think about it, baseball is a summer sport pretty much work back
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where we were from, because we had the you know, we had the
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four seasons. You know, you don't play a lot of baseball back in
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in December, January, February, but the warmer months. So you think
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about kids back at home where I came up from, out of Charles,
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South Charleston, West Virginia. You know, in the summertime, man,
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we have nothing else to do growing up, So baseball was huge for us.
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I mean, getting outside playing baseball all day long. And so to
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me, it starts there and I and that there and this is what I
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see, guys. And I've traveled all over the world. I remember going
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Overseas and helped starting a baseball program over there. There was no black kids
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in baseball, you know. And I traveled all over the place out here
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playing a little league in select baseball. They're just they're just not a veilament.
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And I don't know the answer to that, but but I but I
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noticed that well, let me ask you this because I know that I recently
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heard something that as far as Major League Baseball their investment into Latin America,
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where they're making these you know, building these whose complexes and facilities and making
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these investments, and a question was posed to why, now, why isn't
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Major League Baseball making those same investment into inner city youth baseball programs. Yeah,
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that's a great point, you know. Matter of fact, I did
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back in the day when I was coaching, uh, you know, and
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uh, I read up on some things. And you're right about that.
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Because there's a program they called they call it rb I. Okay, one
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of the things. It's called RBI. It's called Reviving Baseball in the Inner
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City, Uh, you know, within the inner city. But these programs,
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this this program RBI was was international as well, so that it was
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it looked good on the behalf of the sponsors of the people putting this information
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out there. But there was no action steps, man, you know,
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and and we know action steps are required. And that's why when you go
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into the communities, no one's even never heard of it. You can.
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I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I was. One of the interesting components to
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me is you can. You can pretty much go find a football field just
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about anywhere that you can go work out. You can do that. Yeah,
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baseball fields anywhere close to an inner city? Is that even? Is
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that a thing? Like? Because to me, I'm going to make the
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case if you want me to be involved in something, you've got to put
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the you got to put the platform in my community. Yes, yeah,
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you know, Carl, I'm so glad you mentioned that, because that's one
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of the problems that I ran into a lot when I would put together a
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team because I worked at community centers and things out here just to go in
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these communities to help out with with with with youth, you know. And
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and when we try to put a team together, we we try to find
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a field to play on. There's no there's no field to play on.
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We can't. We'd have to go miles away just to pick do a pick
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up baseball game. I not talking like thirty miles away. Me mays on
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some field that's empty that we can go and that's not locked up, you
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know, that's not has has a lock and key or locked out, and
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we'd have to jump the freaking fence to get these kids out there. Just
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so we can go and play pick up baseball because all the organized fields even
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out here, were controlled, and I remember several times we're being kicked off
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the field. Now I'm just taking kids out with me just to play the
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game, you know, and uh, you know, because again it's even
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in the little leagues out here, it's so controlled. Let me let me
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ask you this as far as being like a little league coach, baseball coach,
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I know out here, one of the major issues is that a lot
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of kids, they're not like, you know, three and four sport athletes
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like you know obviously when we were when we were kids, a lot of
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kids they played basketball year round, or they played football and basketball half the
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year. So coming up, what was the effects of or coming up as
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a coach, what has been the effects of like a you basketball and then
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like these, you know, people concentrating on one sport, not not given
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baseball just a try or chance. Yeah, because I think we've made here's
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here's the Here's to me. I think the problem with that is that we
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waited too long to try to reach these kids with you. That's a good
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point, you know, just think about that first act. Now these kids
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have settled in I mean, you know they're they've kind of given up on
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baseball because no one tried to reach them. And I mean I'm talking years
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ago. So now when you go in and talk to a kid or a
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parent of these kids about baseball, you know there's there hasn't been an interest
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there because it's been that way for so long. And this is why we're
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seeing the decline in the leagues. And I'm not just talking the MLB.
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Look at the college teams, Look at you can go, look at the
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high school teams. You can just keep going all from there. I mean,
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it really is because we've we've turned our eyes away from the inner city
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as if these kids are not interested or if these kids can't play, and
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we know that's not true. Well, let me ask this question, because
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I wonder about this a lot of times, Like you know, my role
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model is that I've said a thousand times, one hundred thousand times, it
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was Robert Alexander, So I could and so football so because he was a
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football player. Has has the has professional baseball, has collegiate baseball, high
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school baseball? Even giving are they celebrating that black baseball player enough to make
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kids want to play? I mean cause you know what I'm saying, Like
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if I if I'm playing youth baseball and I'm seven eight years old, I
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don't know if I got to see somebody that I want to be like because
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everybody says, oh, I want to be like him, or everybody's running
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around saying, oh, I'm Robert Alexander. You know what I'm saying,
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Like, I don't know what that that doesn't feel like that's a thing to
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me in baseball or we don't. It's not celebrated the black as the black
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baseball players, the great black baseball players. While they may get in the
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Hall of Fame, I don't know if if it trickles down to these kids
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across the country to say I want to be like Hank Aaron. Yeah,
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yeah, Carl, that's that's that's such a good point because think about that
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for a second. I remember the kids. One of the things that really
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inspired me was the guys who came way before me that I used to sit
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around watch and listened my dad and my uncles and people talk about with Jackie
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Robinson, you know, Babe Ruth, I mean up, Babe Ruth.
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But uh, Hank Aaron, but and Willie May's. I used to go
15:33
out and and make those Willie maids catch it. I'd have people throwing the
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ball over my head, and I'll go out into a field, uh and
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catch the ball over my head, just several times. That's all I would
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do is throw it over my head. I'll catch it backwards. I'd practice
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that because you had these guys ahead of you you wanted to be like,
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and there were many of them. There's there's many many of them that that
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that was in the forefront of the the young black kids. You're right today
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that's not so, but it is that way in the NBA. It's that
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way in the NFL. For some reason, that is no longer the case.
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And I really don't have the answer to that. So let me know,
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we joke. Let me ask you this, just as far as your
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experience as a coach, how do we start to make that outreach. How
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do we, you know, get kids interested in the game again. We
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got to get players we whatever. Look here, I think you know it's
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sad to say, but I think from the sixties up into the eighties,
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I believe you know, the league if you look at uh, we had
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maybe at all the players on the base on an MLB roster, I think
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there's maybe like seven hundred and eighty maybe seven hundred ninety players. You know,
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back in the day it is close to thirty percent because those players were
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of black black players. Uh now, I think that's down less than six
17:03
percent. So we have to find those players. And these guys got to
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give back, man, I mean you've got to and I and I and
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I and and there's players out there that's trying to do that. I know
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Cec Sabaskian, he was a pitcher for the for the Yankees. He's given
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back. You know, Derek Jeters, he's he's getting involved. It's these
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it's these nickname players that we have to contact that hey, man, come
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on, get on board with this because it's it's such a it's such a
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rich American sport, not just in America, but in our community that's been
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lost and it's and it's and it's such a shame for if I think,
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and I think out of the players right now, and I think if you
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if you take less than six percent of the players out of seven undred and
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eighty players, I think you come up with like forty forty four forty five
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players total. That's crazy, MLB man, And that is absolutely crazy.
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And some of those may be even considering from other nationalities, like you know,
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different places, uh, other than the United States. So this is
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where it starts. And we gotta to me, we have got the focus.
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It starts man with your first love as a kid, man, and
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we got to get these kids involved. So what would you what would you
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say to parents though? So what would be your your plea to parents to
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this end? Hey, my my plea to parents is get them, get
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them out of the house, get him out of the house. Man.
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In the summertime, this is why it's so easy for these kids to get
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involved in the wrong things rather than the right things, because they're sitting around
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and they're doing nothing. If they're not playing football, not playing basketball.
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Baseball is a summer sport. Kids are out of school, but they have
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no place to go. They can't there's no facilities out there just for them
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to go play at, or no one's coming reaching these kids in the community.
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And I'll just do it. The research on this RBI pro, you
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know, and it's and it sounds great, and you know, they even
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have it out here, you know. But and Nike's founding and Nike's one
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of the big responsors of this now and as well too. But how far
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reaching is this program and what is it doing? You know? And and
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I don't see it out here. I haven't seen it out here. I
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go to all these games all the time because I love the sport and I
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like to love giving back to younger kids, especially when I find a kid
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that really wants to play. And there's every now and then you'll find that,
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and you want to just help that kid to advance and and and and
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to get placement on some team somewhere, because if they don't, you know,
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there's no place to play these these these these teams today, even in
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the Little League. I mean, it's so hard that you only have so
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many players they can pick up on this team, you know, and uh
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and and and you know, you're looking at maybe fifteen kids on this one
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team, but you know, and you have thirty kids that come out and
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play. So a lot of the kids on the team, these these parents
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are are well af off or they you know, they they're they're selected,
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they're put on this team automatically. Whereas a little black kid, you know,
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it's hard for them because now there's so much money they got to come
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out of the pockets with matter FIVET up front. Nowadays, it's not a
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lot of the equipment and the travel and all the costs that's involved. When
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you talk to these parents, they'll tell you we don't have that kind of
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money, you know. And it's and it's it's it's one of the issues
20:25
that that is is that is relevant and uh and we and I see it.
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I come across it quite a bit. And there was one kid,
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a couple of kids. I's just I'd go pick them up, take them
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to practice, take them back home after practice. You know, we practiced
20:40
every other day. But it you know, this is what it was like
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because people did this for me. I remember people doing this for me when
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I was a kid, because I didn't have a way to the practice.
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I didn't have a way to the game. I didn't have to pump my
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bike, get on that little bicycle and ride the practice ride to the game
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and every time. And that's because I wanted to play that game so bad.
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And I'm thankful that I have people like that to do that for me.
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But I think we need mentorship, and I think we need mentorship of
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people that plan the sport to give back to what to this love of the
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game, Because I think the love is still there, we just got to
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we have to bring it back to our communities. And that's the issue that
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I see. Let me ask a question that might be a little bit off
21:25
off subject to coma Celebrate Recovery Team young men, young men's group age sixteen
21:33
to twenty five you're involved in that, tell us a little bit about what
21:37
that is, what what your goal is from it and all of that.
21:41
Man. You know, I'm involved in a church group out here for many,
21:45
many years and it's called Celebrate Recovery. And I picked this group to
21:52
be involved with because it's from dealing with kids from the age of six team
22:00
to twenty five years old, struggling out here without any direction, not knowing
22:06
where they're going, what they're doing, and a lot of times fathers are
22:10
out of the house and some are in the house. But you know,
22:12
it's a drug issue. For our main focus is focusing on chemical dependency because
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you see a lot lot out here. Man, the drugs are this this,
22:23
These drugs are really bad and they're targeting these little kids with this ventanyl
22:27
And so we offer a place for these kids to come and once a week,
22:33
we show up every Tuesday and they can talk about things and they and
22:37
are and I'm head of that group and this good stuff to about thirty thirty
22:41
people. Some of these kids are some of these kids are are coming out
22:47
of programs. They've been you know, they've been through the through the system.
22:53
They have to show up every week. I sign off and they go
22:56
back. And if they don't sign off, if they don't show up,
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I can't mark them off, and then they can go and they spend time.
23:03
They spend time behind bars. So I feel like I wanted to do
23:07
something to try to help and reach these young kids who have no mentorship.
23:12
Man. Now, I couldn't imagine coming up. I know, Carl,
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you know this man. We had others over us that always spoke into us,
23:22
you know, and uh and thank god I was able to listen to
23:26
some of those uh, those people that were ahead of me. So it's
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my way of giving back with this what we call celebrate recovery, that's dealing
23:33
with kids that's like the struggling with chemical dependency, anger issues and all these
23:37
things. Gives them a place to come once a week for an hour and
23:42
a half to talk about it. And we always say, what goes on
23:47
the group stays within the group. And it allows me to to to really
23:52
focus in and try to help those ones that really wanted to be helped.
23:56
And that's what it is. Yeah, what prompted that? What prompted you?
24:02
I mean and and let me just say this to the listeners. Tie
24:07
has always been that guy that kind of marched to his own drum, you
24:11
know, to the beat of his own drum. And but was always a
24:15
good guy, always always to me, doing the right thing. And it's
24:22
and it's so in a way, it doesn't surprise me that you would do
24:26
that. But I'm just trying to figure out, like, what was it
24:30
that you saw a kid, it was somebody that you saw that was in
24:34
bad shape? What what what motivated you to get into that the whole recovery
24:41
part of it? What? What what prompted that? Yeah? For me,
24:47
there was one of the things like I said, I'm a church going
24:48
guy, you know, and uh, and I would see people come in
24:52
and I spose I was. I was a coach for years out here,
24:56
and uh, and I think it it's born from there. First of all,
25:02
from coaching because I would see kids that would show up that were not
25:08
available. Even though they're there, they're not there right. And I can
25:11
tell, man, from the experience of traveling all the world I was in
25:15
the military, I've seen a lot, experienced a lot, and I've seen
25:19
kids. You know, you can tell when someone's struggling, man, when
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someone's being you know, that's just having a hard time in life and really
25:29
just giving up on themselves and not believing of anything that can happen to them.
25:33
That's good. But what I did notice about this is that as when
25:37
I was coaching at that level, especially at that high school level, it
25:42
was hard to get these kids to open up about their lives and what they're
25:47
doing. And you know, they couldn't play high school baseball because they didn't
25:51
have degrades or or sports you know they having. And I would just start
25:56
talking to them, man, just being there for them listening. I just
26:00
wanted to be somebody that put a hand on their shoulder and just listen to
26:03
them and tell them how much I care about them and invite them to this
26:07
program. And from there, you know, that's where it comes from to
26:11
me, because I feel like I had that in my life and I feel
26:15
that I could help someone, and I feel like I can give this back
26:18
to you know, this is I feel like this is this is why I'm
26:22
here. We're here for a purpose. It's not just to live this great
26:26
life, but we're here to give back. Man, if you can change
26:29
a life, even if it's just one, that makes a huge difference in
26:33
our society. And this is what it really boils down to, you know.
26:37
And uh and so that's that's where it was born from. And uh
26:41
and in inviting people, have them to bring their friends, you know,
26:45
because there's there's there's many people that they know that's in the same same boat
26:48
that they're in, and that's what would happen. And it continued from there.
26:52
Well all right, well one of my last question, my last question
26:57
is is you and I grew up. We were we were close friends.
27:04
We had Yeah, we we we did a lot of good stuff, bad
27:08
stuff together. When you no, I ain't gonna tell it. I gonna
27:15
let it. I'll just let them have to figure out where we what we
27:19
did or where we did it at because somebody might be a result of it.
27:22
So I ain't even gonna go there. Let me ask. Let me
27:26
ask the question though, because I'm wondering and we didn't talk in detail about
27:32
this, and you know, I don't want to go too far into it.
27:36
But when you look back now and you and you realize that Robert Alexander
27:41
is gone, Alan Hawkins is gone, you know, those were guys that
27:45
we would be around and we're you know, we're part of definitely part of
27:52
your time. How does that? How does that reflect on you? You
27:57
know? What do you know? Do you do? I know, I'm
28:00
sure they come across your mind every now and then. What what what does
28:04
that do for you? You know, because I can, I can make
28:07
the case for me. Man, it's it's it's it's a blessing to still
28:11
be here, but it is it is hard to think that the guy that
28:15
did all this for me from a mental and physical piece is gone. And
28:21
then Alan was just a fun loving guy that you had a great laugh and
28:27
and now those guys are gone and they were part of the neighborhood. Oh
28:32
man, you know, you're really touching on some stuff now because if oh
28:37
my gosh, you know, like we talked before, Carl, you know
28:40
as well as I know, Man, we grew up with some of the
28:42
best dudes ever, you know, in our communities, our families, and
28:47
they were just so real, so authentic and transparent about their lives and im
28:52
and not only that, but some of the best athletes I've ever ever seen,
28:56
no matter where I've been, you know as well. And we know
29:00
that finally early on, way before us, people really didn't look back in
29:04
West Virginia for talent back in early, back in the days. But they
29:08
foundly, they finally explored, and they finally realized, Man, there's more
29:14
talent in there. There. There's just there is just about anywhere else extremely
29:18
amazing talent that guys had come way before me and you man, could be
29:23
great players in the NFL whatnot. But when it comes to Robert and you
29:29
know, and Allen and some in yourself and some of the other guys man
29:33
that we knew, we were so blessed. I can't tell people enough how
29:41
blessed we were because we it was such a closest, it was such a
29:47
brotherhood. I mean, it was just it was just amazing. Man.
29:52
You just don't see that anymore, you don't come across it. But it
29:56
meant so much to me because, oh my gosh. I mean, it
30:00
was everything, and it inspired me. It encouraged me to be better.
30:04
You know, when I came back, man, I was even in high
30:07
school. Man, I was probably a buck twenty five at the best.
30:11
You know, Blum twenty five man with a Afro. Man, they go
30:15
af rom and but I could play that game. You know. I could
30:18
play baseball, played basketball, play I didn't play football. But you know,
30:25
then I was so proud, man, so proud of where we came
30:29
from in that same area. Man. You know, as I know,
30:32
with how many great people, how many great athletes, man, we came
30:34
across, but just great people. And then with Roberts being gone and Alan
30:40
being gone, it shook me. It really shook me. And uh,
30:44
you know, but you know, I'm extremely thoughtful of these things and thankful,
30:49
man, of everything that we've we've had and we experienced. All Right,
30:55
Well, my brother, we're gonna we're gonna jump off of here and
30:56
take a quick break. I truly truly appreciate you coming on, man,
31:00
And uh, I'm again glad we got back in touch and we'll I'm sure
31:04
we'll be chatting going down the road. Man. I just want to say,
31:08
Man, I know this guy. Man, if you are listening to
31:11
this podcast, man, stay with it, Man, share with other people,
31:15
because this guy is so legit. He's always been someone who has always
31:19
inspired others to be better than themselves. And I'm so proud of you for
31:25
the voice that you have back there and and all the great things you accomplish.
31:30
Man, But you're a better person than even all of that. So
31:33
I'm just so proud of you. I love you, brother. Can't wait
31:36
to catch up with you when you come out to Seattle. And now I've
31:37
said you got to come out here and I'll come come, come on,
31:41
now, come on, all right, and so better when I get back
31:45
that way. You're the first person I'm gonna look up. Man. Sounds
31:48
good. Man. I can't wait to tell the family and said, hello,
31:52
love you guys. Man, keep doing what you're doing. Brother,
31:53
appreciated. Man, love you too, all right, Thank you? All
31:57
right, guys. Ye, all right, ladies and gentlemen. We're going
32:00
to take a quick break and we will be right back. Let's Talk with
32:05
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33:00
This is Let's Talk with Carl Lee. Now back through the conversation.
33:06
All right, ladies and gentlemen, welcome back. I want to give another
33:09
shout out to our sponsor, Frank Walker Law. Real talk, real experience,
33:15
real results, and for more information you can email him at Frankwalkerlaw dot
33:21
com. Hollis I enjoyed that conversation with with with my boy, and I
33:30
know that you have a couple of other things that you wanted to get in,
33:37
so shoot him out to me definitely. I want to say, like,
33:40
that's such an important conversation as far as like how do we just expand
33:45
Major League Baseball? Because I know, even myself growing up, I was
33:49
a fan, and you know, I looked up to like Harry Davis,
33:52
Darryl Strawberry and the likes. But kind of moving forward now, ESPN they
33:57
released their top hundred professional app since the year two thousand, So these are
34:02
just the top professional These are number one professional athletes and just since the year
34:07
two thousand. Now again, when we say athlete, right, I know
34:14
we talked about this prior. Are we talking just in its you know,
34:21
in its most basic most Webster Dictionary term when we say athlete or do we
34:27
mean athletic? Are we just talking about somebody who plays a professional sports?
34:31
And how do we are we ranking this on like or our thoughts on the
34:37
dominance of that person in says sport or just their athletic ability playing that sport.
34:42
How do you how do you process it and think about that? My
34:45
first, my first thought in as you were talking this came to my mind.
34:52
You as a former athlete, me as a former athlete, when you
34:57
say the most athletic, that's different than being a good athlete or even a
35:05
great athlete in your sport. Yeah, just a pro athlete. There's a
35:09
whole lot of pro athletes that don't necessarily or shouldn't necessarily qualify as an athletic.
35:16
Okay, okay, yeah, yeah, I like it. And here's
35:21
here's here's the two divisions I'm gonna give you. I am one hundred percent
35:25
sure that Tom Brady is on that list, for sure. I'm one hundred
35:30
percent sure that Randy Moss is on that list. Yeah. Now, when
35:34
you started talking about best athlete, there's no question, there's no question that's
35:38
Randy Moss. There's no question that no one's going to even try to compare
35:43
Tom Brady as an athlete or athlete or athletic. Yeah, great, athletic.
35:52
I like this athletic. He's an athlete, he's an athlete, for
35:55
sure. Great. I'm gonna make the case the goat as a quarter I
36:00
would agree, and so, but if you're trying to rank him as an
36:06
athlete. No, yeah, okay, So so for this list, we're
36:12
just gonna say professional athlete, just somebody who was dominated, somebody who's there
36:16
in their particular sport. Now, again that becomes a little bit hard to
36:20
rank, but we'll just go we're gonna go to top ten. So at
36:22
number one, they got Michael Phelps swimmer. Number two, they got Serena
36:27
Williams. Number three, they got Lionel Messi soccer. At number four,
36:30
they got Lebron James. Number five is Tom Brady, number six is Roger
36:36
Federal tennis. Number seven is Simone Boles gymnastics. Number eight is Tiger Woods
36:43
golf, number nine is Hussein Bolt track, and number ten is Kobe Bryant
36:47
basketball. Now, since the year two thousand, I just read you the
36:52
names. Who do you think is missing? Who would you put in that
36:57
top ten that's not there? How would you adjust stat easily? Easy?
37:04
I'm and I'm home based Brandy Moss. You've hitting Ready Moss in that top
37:08
ten athlete professional, professional athlete, professional again, and I'm saying the most
37:15
athletic. We're saying he dominated at their professional Yes, I'm still put I'm
37:20
still putting them in. But and here's my here's my thing in that list.
37:23
One of the things that I caught in the list as you were naming
37:28
them, it was a lot of those were single sports, individual sports.
37:36
Boat. Yes, Simon Biles, you had a couple of t you had
37:39
two Serena and Roger federal tennis players. Yeah, you're you're right. You
37:44
see what I'm saying. And Michael Phelps swimming right. Part of that is
37:46
because now as a as an individual athlete, you're performing, so you're as
37:52
athletic as anybody in your sport because you're winning. Okay, Now, when
38:00
you start talking about a teamwork, could Randy Moss be great without a great
38:07
quarterback? Yes, I'm thinking he could. Mean he was, he was.
38:12
Yeah, it wouldn't make any difference who he had. He's gonna show
38:15
up on the feet. I think it makes some difference. I mean,
38:17
we got to the Raiders. That was that was kind of a whole mess
38:21
in itself. But but but he was also a little bit older at that
38:25
time too. No, that was before he went to the Patriots. Oh
38:29
well, yeah, I can see that. I can see that. So
38:32
that quarterback kind of matters a little bit. It does, But again,
38:36
in the in the in the team sports, in a team sport, it
38:39
does kind of require you to have assistance to get there, to be in
38:45
that top in that top tier and in that top ten. Who did you
38:52
have that was? Was there was there a team sport guy or lady in
38:55
any couple? It was like I said, you had Lebron James, Lebron
38:59
James, Tom Brady, uh and Kobe Bryant okay, and Messi Okay.
39:06
So so my question really is to this to this list? Is this list
39:12
the just the best basketball, best football, best soccer best? I know,
39:16
but I'm just saying any one of those sports, who's the best?
39:20
Are they just saying this athlete in this sport is the best ever? Or
39:27
athletic? Well, I don't see you don't. I don't think they're saying
39:32
these are the best athletes like the most athletic people. They're just saying.
39:37
I think what this list is saying is like number one, who's the best
39:40
athlete as far as who's the most dominant, who's the most game changing in
39:45
their particular sport? Because what this and and I'll say who I think should
39:51
be on this list? Number one? I would have who's same boat way
39:53
higher because he's number nine on this list. I don't know how you look
39:59
how you win his stat who was so dominant in the one hundred and two
40:02
hundred. I mean this guy, would you know with ten meters left be
40:07
looking back jogging? He was absolutely dominant as a sprinter. And who I
40:12
would add to this list And I don't see how you can't add this.
40:15
You gotta add Floyd Mayweather. I just don't see how you don't have Floyd
40:20
Mayweather in the top ten. He was, you know, he's the most
40:22
decorated, one of the most decorated fighters in history. He was totally dominant
40:28
in his sport. And I just don't know how you don't have him in
40:30
the top ten. You do have to have him. Yeah, he's just
40:37
like number twenty five on the list. Yes, And again on what bothers
40:44
me about the list, okay, is it's truly like we're trying to narrow
40:52
down what we think the list is right, which is the person the best
40:58
athlete in a sport, and then once you have it in a sport where
41:02
they rank against the other best player in that sport. You see what I'm
41:07
saying. And so when you start doing that. You know, was Tiger
41:13
Woods better in golf than Roger Federick was in tennis? Okay, that's a
41:22
good that's you see what I'm saying. That's a good argument. And so
41:25
when you start trying to make those comparisons, the interesting piece to me is
41:31
if you're gonna make it on, if you're gonna say, okay, we
41:35
only are taking the top players in the sport, male or female. Now
41:39
we're gonna now we're gonna line them up one, two, whatever, mm
41:44
hmm, Well was was Lebron? Is Lebron better? Is he more dominant
41:54
in basketball than Kobe? And you gotta give it up that even like and
42:00
that's another argument I would have even Lebron, I mean, being at what
42:05
they have he met number what is he number this? Look here he's number
42:10
four four, I mean number four. I got you on that, But
42:14
I mean he may have to be higher just because of his longevity being that
42:21
dominant for that long. He's been dominant since day one. He's been the
42:24
guy since day one, and he really hasn't necessarily slowed down yet. Michael
42:30
Phelps swimmer, Yeah, okay, absolutely dominating. He he he he dominated.
42:38
I mean every every race and swimming. Right, But but but that
42:44
that's only four years, four for four years. You know what I'm saying
42:46
again, is it? But does that make it tougher or does that make
42:50
it not easy? I won't say easier. But do we compare how do
42:52
we compare that against a Lebron James who had to do it season season season
42:58
season season? And I think that I think that I think that matters a
43:04
whole a bunch. I don't think you know now, Serena Williams, Yeah,
43:10
I don't. I don't have an argument. I don't have an argument
43:14
with her because when when you But when you because when you see her at
43:16
the top of her game, when she came into the into the whole tennis
43:20
thing, right, she was, she was dominant. And the same argument
43:23
I would have for Lebron James, I would have for Serena because from day
43:28
one they have had the expectation and they and they bid it and succeeded,
43:34
and they kept going and keep going, and Lebron off literally off the radar.
43:39
Yeah, they set a whole nother standard. I'll make the case for
43:44
Tom Brady set a standard too, that was that was off the chart.
43:50
And see that, and I'm glad you said that because to me it made
43:52
me think, I just don't know if you rank an Olympic athlete over a
44:02
quote unquote professional athlete again, because is there a more pressure from that Olympic
44:08
athlete because they only get to do it once every four years? Or is
44:12
it like or do we or do we rank the consistency of a Lebron James
44:16
or Tom Brady having to do it season after season after season like which one
44:21
sees the other one? You see what I'm saying? Yeah, season after
44:25
season seems and how many ever seasons that Lebron has under his belt, like
44:35
I would I would like to think that that that is definitely gonna be harder.
44:42
And you know when you start talking about somebody who's how old is Lebron?
44:46
Now he's I think forty is Yeah, he's forty ish and so he's
44:52
doing this year in and year out, not building up for one big moment,
44:58
you know, And I'll make is that more pressure you building up for
45:02
the one big moment? Because I love the Olympics and I think me and
45:06
you both in this conversation, do we love this, but imagine doing the
45:08
training you said, you do run up the hills, liftingways, doing all
45:12
that, and you gotta do that for three and a half years to get
45:15
to that one moment. And you see what I'm saying, you want because
45:21
you can't get lady, you can't drop off you and then you can't get
45:27
there and have a have a slow start. You can't get there and have
45:30
a slow so you can't mess up. It's just here because now you got
45:34
to talk about another four years and do you have another four years to do?
45:37
You have another four years? See, that's that's what I'm saying.
45:39
Like, so do you rank those Olympic athletes higher or do you lower?
45:44
Because again, obviously they compete within that four years, but the moment is
45:46
the Olympics. Yes, keep it, yes, because they may win and
45:50
lose during yeah, the World Championship, but by the time it's Olympic time,
45:55
but they're ready. That's what it is. That's that's what they're going
45:59
for. Yeah, and then listen, let's just switch it slightly because on
46:04
the list they also have auto racers. So they got Lewis Hamilton, who
46:09
I think he does the F one. How do you feel about I mean,
46:17
I don't think so I don't because because that's the I mean, I'm
46:20
not taking athletic. I don't know how athletic it is to drive a fast
46:24
car, that's my question. Yeah, I don't know. It takes a
46:28
skill set. I don't know if that's athlete. And with that, are
46:34
we saying athletic is only a physical thing? Are we saying it's a mental
46:39
hand eye court Because I'm saying because obviously, I mean, I guess there's
46:43
some physical things you have to do to prep to be an auto racer,
46:45
but I would imagine there's more eye awareness, responsive hand eye thing. You
46:52
know what I'm saying. I'm with you, I just need to get a
46:55
car racer. Yeah, I mean because yea, because we're not trying to
47:01
down play car racing. We're just trying to try to figure out where the
47:07
where the numbers and who should be in those numbers. Because when you when
47:10
you when you put an auto racer in there. When I saw it,
47:14
when you send it to me and I saw that, I was like,
47:16
and I was and I was thinking, and I was truly thinking straight athleticism.
47:22
Yet that's what I think when I hear these lists. But I don't
47:24
think that's what the people who you know, form these lists are thinking.
47:28
They think if they are there, their way off, their way off.
47:31
I don't think because you can't have jokers. Who plays for the dimer Nic
47:36
he's not a great athlete, but I would say Grady is not a great
47:38
athlete, a great quarterback. Go. But I think they're thinking of,
47:44
like, you know, where you rank again in your professional sports, and
47:47
how you are your performance or your domination or you changing the game within your
47:52
professionals. To your point, if if with the reality of the training that
47:58
is required for one performance, basically the Olympics, if you've won, if
48:06
you dominated the Olympics in your field, are you I mean, that's a
48:17
that's a that's work. Yeah, And to me, does that sit you
48:22
above? You know, I'm working. I'm working sixteen eighteen weeks to get
48:29
ready for you know, a sixteen week season, and Okay, that's a
48:32
lot of work, a lot of running and all that stuff. But then
48:36
you get another one. But yeah, you know, I got time.
48:39
I could have an every season and a bad season and a season, or
48:45
you can just have a bad game or two. Yes, that doesn't necessarily
48:47
mean you're gonna you know that you lose it all. Yeah. And and
48:52
the thing with the Olympics that we you know, we didn't discuss is that
48:55
you're competing against the world, right, So it's not like again and I
49:00
know, you know, sports have gotten more global, you know you look
49:02
at the NBA, right, But even with that, you're not necessarily still
49:06
competing against the world, right, right, Yeah, because there very well
49:10
could be an athlete somewhere that could be a running back, yeah, could
49:16
be a receiver that we don't know. Yeah, but even not even taking
49:21
the hypothetical, there's probably a great swimmer, there's a great ping pong,
49:24
there's a great track athlete. As far as Olympics standards, that like,
49:29
we don't know that person, you know what I mean. So it's like
49:32
you have to weigh that as well. And then then let me ask you
49:36
about they got Barry Bonds on the list at number thirty eight. Now,
49:43
to me, there was no greater time when we just we're talking about baseball
49:49
to them watching Barry Bonds play. I remember we was at State. We
49:52
would literally jump out of meetings, go to Gore Hall and be huddled around
49:59
the TV in the commons area to watch Barry Bond's, Mark Maguires and the
50:04
associate. So I mean when we think of baseball players, right, we
50:08
don't necessarily think of quote unquote athleticism like obviously like a Ricky Henderson, but
50:14
we're thinking hand our, coordination, the ability to perform. Like I said,
50:20
you know when you don't got a lot of chances. See, I
50:24
think you know my argument, my my argument with the list, and and
50:31
again I know he's a great basketball player, okay, and and and he's
50:38
in the Hall of Fame all of that kind of stuff. Fourteen time All
50:45
Star? Which is which is? Which is? I mean, literally great
50:52
Tim Duncan at sixteen, I don't It's not that I don't like him,
50:57
but sixteen you think that's too hot. I think that's too Shock's below him
51:01
in seventeen. But Patrick Mahomes is eighteen. But okay, with Shaq,
51:08
you know, maybe Somemers he played in the nineties two and then Mahomes is
51:13
still kind of bubbling, so maybe I don't know. I mean Alex Felix,
51:17
who dominated as a tracking field athlete at the four hundred to eight hundred
51:23
those Braist two hundred, she's sixty three she's the most decorated female track athlete
51:30
of all time, and she's sixty three. And then and then I see,
51:35
I thought your main problem with the list is that we don't got a
51:39
Darrell Reeves. We don't got a a Reid on the list. Like how
51:45
you ain't got those guys, Daryl Green, Well, no, this ain't.
51:49
It's two thousands. Oh yeah, yeah, I'm talking two thousands.
51:52
Randy Moss is twenty seven. Randy Moss is twenty seven, Yeah, twenty
51:59
seven. And again when when you say Randy Moss, I'm saying Randy Moss
52:05
could do any one of the sports. He could. He could do track,
52:09
he can he could do basketball, he could do all of these kinds
52:14
of things. And twenty seven. Yeah, man, I mean I don't
52:19
know. I mean, I'm gonna make the case if there was of the
52:23
football players and they ain't a lot of twenty six and bruh, it ain't
52:29
a lot of football. They got Brady, they got Aaron Donaldson, they
52:31
got Rogers, they got Manny Moss. Like it ain't a whole bunch of
52:37
football players on here. They got revs. They got reverses ninety six.
52:43
I playing corner, you dominating as a corner. You shut down Randy Moss,
52:47
Mega tron you I don't bru, I don't know see and and and
52:52
to me, when you put it they got everyed in ninety nine, I'm
52:55
sorry. Okay, so you put you put Aaron don Donald right and at
53:00
twenty okay, now right, he's a pro bowler, he's all those kinds
53:06
of things, right, Hall of Fame Rod, But he's not like that's
53:12
like did he did he? I mean, how many other players do you
53:16
know that dominated? Did you? Could you could say dominated the game bigger
53:22
than him in this era? I would say probably in the twenty first century
53:29
he would definitely be that guy. He could be in for this list.
53:34
Yeah, he can be in twenty first century. I'm just not sure twenty
53:38
when he can't be twenty Mayweather's twenty five, That's what I'm saying. Randy
53:47
Moss is twenty seven, and that's wild to me. And like I said,
53:51
look at this they got They got Darrell Reeves at ninety six, they
53:55
got Ed Reed at ninety nine, and they got Charles Woodson at a hunt
54:00
like I don't know how. And again we are football guys, I get
54:04
it. But God told you a couple of weeks ago. Playing cornerback or
54:08
defensive back position in football, particularly in a time where you can't really touch
54:14
people like that, that athleticism and ability to be great at that position is
54:20
next level. And I don't know if they, the writers of this really
54:23
understood that. Well, I don't know if they ever really think I don't.
54:28
I don't know if that if if that's an understandable point. And again
54:32
I would love, I would love to have this list as the most athletic.
54:38
Give me the top fifty athletic individuals, male or female. Okay,
54:45
give me that, because we can say what we want about who it's judgmental,
54:50
who's the best baseball player, who's the best hitter, who's the best
54:52
quarterback, who's the best ride receiver? All those kinds of things are questionable,
54:55
right and opinionated. But I've when you get and not saying that the
55:01
best athletes because I want that, because I think where Randy Moss is being
55:09
cheated in this list. He goes to, he goes to the top,
55:15
He goes to literally the top tier, no question, top ten, maybe
55:21
even top five of actual athletes on the list. Yeah, I mean I
55:27
agree with it. And I'm looking at the methodology in which they used to
55:30
formulate this list, and it wasn't one in which they just asked, you
55:36
know, a panel or asked a group of individuals, Hey, just give
55:38
me list out your top hundred. It's like they provided these different panels different
55:45
names, and then they went head to head and you know, some of
55:50
them were you know, they got to jot down who they thought was this
55:52
or that. The list started at two hundred and sixty and then got paired
55:57
down to one hundred individuals. So know, maybe the methodology a little bit
56:02
questionable as well, well is it if you're asked and we and we were
56:07
running a little bit over But when you asked that question, if you were
56:10
part of that panel and you you have to have a favorite, you know,
56:16
there's gonna be somebody's name that you know, yeah for sure, and
56:20
you're going to think that that athlete is ranked high then maybe somebody else.
56:27
Again if it's me, I can't see a list that Randy Moss is not
56:30
on the top of when it comes to athleticism a sport, being a dominant
56:37
person in the sport for sure, and from day one, yeah, yeah,
56:42
So there is no issue about being a freshman, a rookie or none
56:46
of that kind of stuff. It's like walking in and dominating when you get
56:51
there, and then like I mean, even a guy like Alan Iverson's yeah
56:54
the list, yes kind of, they got Jason Kidd on the list,
56:57
but don't got al Alanson took a team would virtually no Hall of Famers two
57:01
championships. So I don't know, man, you know, it's all subjective,
57:06
but I would really but I'm in agreement with you that I would really
57:08
like to see a list where we're saying who athletic would not necessarily athlete or
57:14
professional dominating, Who's the greatest? Who are the top athletic professional athletes or
57:19
whatever of all time? And I like to see them. I think that's
57:22
I think that's a great list. And I think we would find more more
57:25
females on that list as well. Yeah, I agree. All right,
57:29
Well, ladies and gentlemen, we are we're a little bit over, but
57:32
we wanted to make sure we got this in. We appreciate it and hope
57:37
you'll be back with us again soon. Let's Talk with Carl Lee is presented
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