Latest / Thinking Class / #106 - Driss Ghali - France’s Identity Crisis: Violence, Islamism & The Risk Of Social Fracture

Transcript

#106 - Driss Ghali - France’s Identity Crisis: Violence, Islamism & The Risk Of Social Fracture · Thinking Class

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Hello, classmates, and welcome to Thinking Class.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'm John Gillam and today I'm speaking to Driss Gali.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: Driss is a political author and speaker who was born in Morocco and educated in Europe.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: Driss graduated from prestigious French universities and then spent a lot of time in a corporate career focused on high-tech companies.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: Now Driss is an intellectual and observer of human nature as it is, ugly and splendid at the same time.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: Since 2017, Driss has written books about violence and identity and frequently appears in French media to talk about immigration, diversity, the Middle East, and French politics.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: One of his books has been translated into English entitled A Counter History of French Colonization.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: In this episode, Driss and I think out loud about the reasons for rising violence and civil unrest in France, and why prominent voices believe that this could lead to civil war.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: Why there is an increasing number of French Muslims that are supportive of Islamist positions and Sharia law over the law of the Republic, the question of assimilation and integration in second, third, and fourth generation immigrants, whether civil war is possible in the event of a government led by the national rally and the need for a bold leader and a new vision for France's future and much, much more.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: Both of my conversations with Driss have been deeply gratifying regardless of the nature of our conversation.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's quite deep, it doesn't bode well for the future, and many of the issues France are facing Britain is facing too.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: As ever, like, subscribe, follow, and share Thinking Class on your podcast platform of choice, YouTube, and Substack.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: Enjoy the show, classmates.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for the invitation.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's my pleasure to have you back.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: Our last conversation uh proved to be popular, I suppose, morbidly popular, considering what we were talking about with the um the nature of French society uh today, specifically with regards to the relationship between uh France, um, its former imperial possessions and now um the peoples from that part of the world, North Africa and beyond, of which you are uh a Moroccan, so you you you know uh intimately about this, and about your book, in which you argue that actually France, since the end of its imperial project, has been suffering a reverse colonization.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: And we we spoke a lot about the cultural differences that have come to the fore and the civil conflict that is now brewing there.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought we could talk about some recent news items which um are by no means um I would say spectacular or indeed unique.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: They seem to be quite regularly reported on now in France, if you know where to go looking for them.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: But I thought we could start off with the civil conflict.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: Recently, an article was written and published in, and excuse me for my terrible uh French pronunciation, Valleur Actuelle, which is a uh good, it's good as well.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's a Parisian magazine, and it was written by uh uh a private security consultant who used to command the National Police's response unit for urban violence, and he's called Jean-Louis Sanchet.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: And effectively, in the article it says that there are now 28 knife attacks per day in the country, and he believes that on current trajectory, France is headed toward civil war um by 2030.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: Before I start throwing out more statistics at you, what what prospect do you think there is?
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_00: Or do you think, as some critics would say in response to this article, that this is just a right-wing fantasy, a kind of um morbid um hope that there's going to be blood spilled on the streets or that someone else might do the dirty job for them?
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um do you do you think uh these um articles suggest or these news items suggest that there is trouble afoot and it is imminent?
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_03: I think that trouble is is imminent uh for two reasons, one empirical and one more ideological, more theoretical.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_03: The empirical one is the statistics you gave.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_03: I had in mind 120 uh white arm attacks per day.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_03: Well, you have uh less uh a lesser amount, but that's uh the idea is there.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_03: Uh the uh the the amount of violence in France is uh exploding by uh by virtue of uh the confessions of the Ministry of the Interior, which are which which are always uh which is always uh downsizing, actually, the the the phenomenon.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_03: But they they what is uh paradoxal and fascinating is that the number of homicides is steady, but the uh uh the intents of homicide, the um the um the um the assaults are exploding, the rapes are exploding.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_03: And someone in France explained that to me uh is that uh thanks to the uh emergency paramedics, they can preserve life because the the SAMU in France, SAMU is a system, uh public system of uh uh paramedics, ambulances and so on, medicalized ambulances, they are very efficient.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_03: It's one of the rare things that Macron didn't jeopardize.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_03: Uh and it's for free.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, we paid by taxes, but it's really an excellent spot.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_03: And they they stabilize the the situation, they stabilize the body, but people are left with sequels, physical and mental.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_03: So the the the and the left always says, yeah, you are a fascist because uh the the number of homicid the homicide rate is steady.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_03: That's that's true.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_03: That's thanks to the paramedics.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_03: Uh but you have you must look at the the assaults, uh the sexual violence that are really uh on the rise, which is uh always the the the the prelude to civil war or big turmoil, because uh in the history of humanity uh uh violence is uh rarely uh uh a volcanic eruption.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_03: You have steps that build uh violence because violence is an epidemia, and in France we are seeing this epidemic, people get disinhibited by contagion, like with uh the virus, any virus.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_03: Uh uh and you see it in suicides.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_03: When you have a suicide somewhere and the media reports it, you have a wave of suicides the following days.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_03: And unfortunately, we we uh because when someone makes something, he he makes it legitimate.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_03: So when someone kills his neighbor, somewhere in our reptilian brain, something happens and you see it.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_03: So uh uh there is a trend.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_03: Mr.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_03: Macron, who is the president, who is not a fascist, of course, uh, unless if you if you define as fascist someone who uh replaces his own people with people coming from overseas, which is a kind of fascism, but anyway, Mr.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_03: Macron uh says on TV, prime time, that uh he uh France is facing civil war.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_03: It was in the debate, I think it was in 2022, I'm not sure, or 2017.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_03: It was a presidential debate, prime time, uh uh in front of Marine Le Pen.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_03: Marine Le Pen said, if I became president, I will um prohibit the Islamic will in the streets.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_03: And he said, if you do so, we will have civil war.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_03: Mr.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_03: Macron said it.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_03: So uh we are not here in uh in the in a cavern with uh fascists, proto-fascists making conspiracies.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_03: We're talking about the head of the the state.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_03: Um and my last uh I I I now let's talk about uh ideological stuff.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I mean um what is France living, what is France going through is colonization.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_03: And when you have colonization, you have violence.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_03: The colonizer is violent.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_03: He has two uh characteristics, features.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_03: First, despise for the native culture.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_03: The same happened in the with the British in India or with the French in Algeria.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_03: You come, you say, okay, we are cleaner, we are wiser, we are more, we are smarter, and uh we invented the I don't know, Industrial Revolution.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_03: So we we must rule.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_03: And you see it now with the with some Muslims in France, but not only Muslims.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_03: They came and they said the France are not uh, they don't they don't believe in Allah, their women are uh prostitutes, they are decadent, they are not Muslim, so we will dominate.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_03: You have you have this despice, uh, which is a colonial feature, actually.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_03: And the second uh uh feature of the colonizer, the invader, is its violence.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_03: Uh allow me to be uh to say some profanities.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_03: There is uh to colonize someone, you have to kick his ass.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_03: An ass is being kicked in France every day.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_03: Hundreds or maybe tens of uh stabbings.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_03: Uh you had the Bataclan, which is a colonial uh the the the each bombing is not only Islamic bombing.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_03: Bataclan, Nice, whatever, Charlie Hebdo, each attacks.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_03: Uh it's not Islamic only, it's a colonial crime.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_03: It's a new people that say, now I'm the ruler.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_03: It's not it's like a mob hit.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_03: I'm taking over this territory, and I'm doing it by the very efficient way that is called terror.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_03: I'll kill your boss, I'll kill your uh I will kill your musicians, I will kill your your your uh your cops, I will kill your women, uh uh, I will uh decentralize your churches, which is happening on a regular basis in France.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_03: So you are having a colonial attack, so uh uh uh uh it's which is violent, and there will be one day, no surprise, will be one day a reaction from the French people, which can uh lead to a civil war or some kind of insurrection.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_03: We don't know.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_03: Because in the his in this history of colonization, sometimes you had no resistance, you had a kind of small pockets of resistance, but you had no mass movement to say no to the invader.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_03: So uh we don't know, but uh uh what is seems quite sure is that uh violence will be escalating.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: Your uh explanation that this the these are the acts of colonizers, I'll put my mind uh I'll I'll I'll try to uh assume the mind of um those who would have a more typical view of um a sociological explanation.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_00: I think people would come back and say, no, no, no, what's going on here through this violence is because these groups of people are feeling rejected by the state.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: So what do you make of that?
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: Is there is there anything, uh is there any substance to that argument?
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: Or do you think this is largely uh driven by ethnic factors, i.e., showing that you openly belong to another people and trying to make claims on the country, as you've said, or that you're openly belonging to another religion, as you said, or do you think that there is substance to the argument you'll get from those that are more concerned with your stereotypical social justice argument saying these people just feel rejected and they're lashing out at the state?
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: Is that a substantial claim to make?
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_03: I think that um we have to hear what people are have to say.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_03: We have to hear what they uh the the signature, we have to read the signatures in each crime.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_03: And there is a pattern there.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_03: Uh racist insults, uh the use of al-Aqbar, which is a desacralization of this um Islamic uh I would say uh saying.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_03: Because as a Muslim, I am really ashamed that to see that Al-Aqbar now is a kind of uh Mayday kind of alert.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_03: People get uh look for uh for for refuge, which is but uh it's not coming from it's not by accident.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_03: Uh in in a small place called Krepol, a small village, I think it's between Lyon and the Alpes.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not very good at geography.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_03: Um they used they had a ball, a ball, a ballroom, a ball, um the village, yeah.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_03: And uh it was I think it happened two years ago, and um of course uh a party is uh is inhabited mostly by teens, teenagers, and young people.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_03: Uh they can uh handle the alcohol and and dance the all night long.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_03: Uh and the group of Arabs came from a nearby city.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_03: Uh they came from a depressed area, and they tried to get access to the to the to the party.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_03: I think they were prevented at the first time, and then they were allowed, which is a classic in every party.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe there were racism there, I don't know.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_03: Uh uh anyway, um, but uh to live is to hear no uh 100 million times and to cope by it.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_03: Uh to uh being a man is uh coping with frustration.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_03: Anyway, they were allowed in, they tried to mess with some girls, and they uh they uh faced uh a reaction there and they killed a guy called Thomas, stabbed him, uh 16 years old, and they stabbed also uh security uh guards and um um they they came and they they said we came to kill white people.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_03: So we we have to hear the people, we we have to hear the the signal to read the signature around it.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_03: They didn't do that because they feel uh poor or or uh uh ejected from the the labor market.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_03: Um more than that, uh in some um terrorist attacks, you had uh uh like in Bataclan, you had the discrimination made by the terrorists between Muslims and non-Muslims.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_03: The mainstream media don't talk about that that much, but they they were uh discriminated.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_03: It happens.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_03: I heard myself uh Moroccan um coach and wellness coach who uh was she was spoken on the Moroccan radio.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_03: So without French people, uh it was a Moroccan-Moroccan debate, and she was talking about she was reporting her last trip to Paris, she was um assaulted in Champs-Élysées by an Arab and uh with a gun, and uh she started uh uh chanting the Quran because she took, she thought she will die, she would die, and when he understood that she is Muslim, he left.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_03: So you have discrimination there.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_03: So uh we are not in a Marxist situation, and my last uh argument there will be that these people are the best, I mean, the Muslims that are if they're not they're not only Muslims, because the colonization is not only made by Muslims.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_03: You have people from every several countries in the world, several uh civilizations, but these are the the Muslims, the Africans, the Pakistanis, the Bengalis that are uh the best treated in the world, because it's hard to be Moroccan in Morocco, it's easier to be Moroccan in France.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_03: You have access to free health, you have access to a more or less decent uh public school, uh public education system, you are in a relatively healthy democracy, far better than the Moroccan one or the Algerian one, you know.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_03: Uh so uh uh if if uh the sociological explanation were to be true, Morocco should be in civil war.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_03: Mali should be in civil war, which is the case, but for other reasons, you know.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_03: Um these populations are quite at their places, at their home places, the countries of origin where they are really discriminated, where they are really uh uh victims of tyranny of some kind of structural injustice, and they are far more turbulent in France, where they are for the first time in history, in generation, treated like human beings.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_03: So we are really not in a Marxist situation.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_03: We are in in a clash of civilizations, which make it which makes it really dramatic because you have uh uh I can you can make me rich, but you can't make me your clone.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_03: I will never be uh a Scottish man or British or Finnish.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_03: I can maybe convert to Catholicism, but uh identity is fixed.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_03: Uh and that's the that's a tragedy.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_03: Uh you see it in the USA with the black with the with the Black America, 15 years, uh 500 years after discovery, 300 years of democracy more or less, black America is still a country apart in America, and they are all Christian.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_03: Because identity uh can get fossilized, and can uh uh and and you have black people in the middle class or in the high on the in the establishment that really feel uh uh hatred towards the the white America, which is a the American tragedy.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_03: So my point is that uh if it were a Marxist problem, I would be far more optimistic.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_03: Because you can buy uh you can improve the your the conditions of living, but you can't uh make people forgive who they are.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: There are lots of strands to pull on here, and I'll try and pull on the right one first.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: So you you talking about the nature of people who are arriving in France and for the first time being treated actually with human dignity compared to all of their previous uh ancestors, and yet as you've talked about clinging not just to ethnicity, which I think is the the obvious thing that you're going to cling to in some respects, is that for those people who haven't forgotten that history is real, and but and by those people I mean largely non-Europeans and people who are derived from European stock, I think uh the liberal worldview has done a lot for us to live so much in the present and so much as consumers in some way that we have forgotten any sense of duty and obligation to what came before.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: Though I would say France in comparison to Britain probably does a better job because you're always calling to mind your national myths and you there seems to be much more of a we're attached to a culture, which we we don't have as much in in Britain these days.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: But anyway, we would we would really struggle, I think, with all of the various um speech codes and um um political um um uh tools that have been developed to stop us from recognizing ancestral heritage because it's too much like um racial supremacy for liberal subjects' minds.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: But I suppose what you're describing here is that there are no scruples for those people who've just arrived, is they're recognizing their difference, and they are in their own way honouring that difference.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: And uh there was something that I read, and this was actually quite remarkable to me, and I'm sure this happens probably in Britain.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: We have sizable um minorities, both religious and ethnic, of similar makeup to France, and um it was in the very infamous riots in Dijon in 2020.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, uh there were Chechens and Arabs that didn't identify with being French, but with their own religious denominations of Islam.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: And in the end, the only way the riots ended was because the local imams managed to quell it.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_00: They didn't listen to the law or the authority of the republic.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: So I suppose uh I if I can convert this into a question, is uh I've I've read and I've never looked into it about the Mexicanization of France, that there is there are territories that are no longer under jurisdiction of the republic, um, and they have their own law and authority figures.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: So besides that Dijon example, do you think that is quite widespread throughout France, or is that you know just one example amongst examples?
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_03: There is a trend, there's a there is an evolution, things are getting worse, um, especially in some cities that are uh that manage to create uh uh anarcho culture a stable uh anarcho-culture.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_03: You have in some cities in France, like Marseille, like Nîmes, you have uh people that are that have been living under the the the control of uh narco mafias for over five ten years.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_03: So you create the habit of uh abiding by new rules, uh which is very dangerous because uh one thing is to fear the the the the drug dealer or the thief, the other
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: thing is to uh get accustomed uh to obey him for example in some areas people are obliged to keep their uh to keep their um to unlock their doors because the to allow the thieves the the the drug dealers to uh hide there or to physically or to uh stock in their apartments in their flats drugs so they are not stupid they they they they hide the drugs cocaine or whatever in uh apartments of old ladies or women with kids and so on to uh obstaculate the to hinder the police work um so i won't say we have a mexicanization uh because uh uh but we will have uh uh i don't think it's um i don't think it's better what we'll have a a um a a disaggregation of the the the the social uh the social uh the corpse the the the of the nation because in mexico you have um a kind of insurrection of the cartels that builds on the mexican tradition of decentralization private violence uh uh mexico has uh an insurrection has a revolution each hundred years 2010 one uh 1910 and 1810 so there is a cycle in Mexico uh uh in the in the genetics of this country there is something there that is a contradiction that uh that has not been uh solved by the Mexicans uh in France we are going I think through a a kind of condominium a double power in some areas where the drug dealers are ruling uh are are ruling some areas but they don't want to take care about everything the government is still paying the the the the food stamps the the schools the the housing allowances and so on and so on um um i know i'm not sure if mexico is better than france or whatever i i i uh the the the uh so it this is the end of the republic because the republic was supposed to be uh one union one unity and all the for all the people to be ruled one by one single law so in some kind in some places in france you have two laws the law of the of the mafia and the law of the of the republic um it will of course um uh reflect in politics you will have uh uh mayors dip uh member of parliaments elected by the by the by the drug dealers i mean by the money of the the cocaine it's maybe it's already the case um the big question is uh will france be be able to cut to to stop it to stop defect this evolution we can talk about that and if it will merge with islamism because for the moment we're talking about criminal gangs most of them are foreigners most of them are from algeria some part of the Comorse Islands which are Muslim islands in the Indian Ocean let's say African uh continent uh but they are they don't have a manifesto a religious manifesto for the moment uh we'll see if they will merge with them um anyway uh it is something else to add to the disaster named Emmanuel Macron because he had seven years to make something about that and he uh refused to uh tackle the problem his his justice minister who in my point of view should uh uh I don't know be put in jail but should be removed from the country I I I am uh for the uh opening of the the Bany in Cayenne you know papillon yeah yes not for a long time uh uh verdict but uh something like two to three years you know to uh make an example make an example and do what Mao did well the reeducation camps of the intellectuals because this guy who is a lawyer was a lawyer of big criminals terrorist or mafia so he he he was aware of he he was he was in the system uh he his his his his uh uh nickname was the terminator i no the the no not the terminator the the uh uh the acquitator in france acquitté is the to to make you innocent yes yes to we would say to acquit acquit acquit yeah i mean it's derived from french obviously yeah latin latin so i i i think his nickname was the acquitator okay which is fine uh the right to defense is uh democratic no no problem about that he became justice minister uh and in marseille uh the judge uh a pool of judges went to paris to the uh assembly national assembly to make a testimony to uh talk about what they were living what are living now in marseille and they said we are afraid and we are on the brink of becoming anarcho state three years ago and this guy he came and he told them he reprimanded them and he said you uh you cannot uh create this sense of uh distress in the public opinion and and and uh so and we are we are paid the price today they just killed uh uh the brother of a candidate of um uh uh environmentalist candidate for the next election municipal because we will have municipal elections in March and they he they they just killed the brother of a guy who was left wing who said I will if I became member of the money municipal council I will fight the narcos and he killed his brother as an advertisement and this minister now former minister he went to the funeral which is scandalous you know which is scandalous you know and and uh um we are paying uh I mean the the danger are not the narco or the Islamists that the danger are all elites that allow this to degradate to this point let's think about let's think about the impact then of um various various strands that you've identified here and we've we've mentioned Islamism a few times so I think I think we'll we'll need to get into this but we I I I do so with the utmost respect I I know you are also Muslim and actually we were speaking before we started to record and it would actually be quite interesting before we get into some of the news items to um actually have you have the opportunity to um describe some distinctions because um I know having followed your work that you are um you're committed to justice you're um trying to tell the truth that you are actually pro-France and pro-French civilization and Western civilization all the rest of it um but you're also a very complex thinker in that you recognize the nature of the civilization of which you originally from in in North Africa but you are obviously open to um and I think this is diplomatically describing things you're you're open to challenge you're open to attack is probably better to say so and I'd imagine you get it from a lot of angles so you're going to get it from Moroccans who'll and North Africans will call you a race traitor you'll probably get it from people on the right wing of France who don't really care what you've got to say you're Muslim and you're the enemy so you should be gone and um there is also I would say and this is just from readings that I do and the English language part of the internet there now seems to be this growing feeling that when the term Islamism is used in media reports that that we are trying to make a distinction that isn't there that Islamism is simply Islam and so we need to we need to stop with this uh because it is a it's a colonizing conquering religion and so what I thought might be useful before we get into the the the news cycle so to speak is you respond to some of those things.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: So first of all the difference between Islam and Islamism because I don't want someone like you getting an unfair rap when as far as I can tell regardless of whether you're talking about the French or Moroccans or Moroccan French and all the rest of it you're just trying to say things how they are right um I think that that that um Islam is like a volcano you know like in Hawaii or the etna or in I don't know Sumatra is a volcano and a volcano it can it's very powerful so Islam is a superpower it's converted in millions of people in Nigeria in did a blast in Asia now Islam is is taking uh step in in uh in Mozambique eastern Congo which is an historical uh achievement knowing the story of what is Africa what is animism and so on so on so it's a superpower but uh the volcano can of course kill you it can uh it's it's can uh it can uh uh burn you so uh but a volcano can also fertilize the surroundings so this is the complexity of of Islam in comparison to what Christianity became today a very civilized religion and so on um or Buddhism or whatever uh so Islam is is this primordial power energy and um you uh what Muslim try to do the Islamic community try to do is to um cope with it so I I I always say that uh uh it's a filtering machine uh the Islamic community communities there is no one there is no Islamic community per se the Algerian hate the Moroccan the Moroccan hate the Algerians Pakistani are going to kill Indians and so on you have Muslims in India um the no Arab country would like uh to receive uh Palestinian refugees no one not even Saudi Arabia or Egypt so there is no umma it's it's uh it's a fantasy but there is kind of of course we are a self-consciousness we have self-consciousness we but uh I mean uh in the Islamic community uh we are like a big family we have the people that do really lots of filtering like myself that get uh that stand at a safe distance from the volcano and take only the heat and the the shock the the spiritual uh uh shock the spiritual energy because they recognize their their uh um vitamins something that can feed their mind and their soul because they they uh they feel it's it it's feeds it feeds them better than christianity or judaism or buddhism or whatever and you have the people that are close to the volcano that are Islamic jihadist Daesh Al-Qaeda they are all Muslims so this is the big uh issue we we face in the Islamic world we cannot ostracize al-Qaeda or Daesh they are Muslims Islamic the Muslim brotherhood are orthodox Muslims I can't say that they are wrong from the the religious point of view so this is why they have uh you say in France they have a boulevard it's it's uh it's a piece of cake for them to to to to expand because it's uh it's a field day as we say in USA because they're really the orthodoxy the issue is that all the the the opportunities that a great part of the Muslim world uh is far away uh but uh deep in its heart is far away from this orthodoxy we recognize that they are right that they are in the they are the orthodox but we we we understand deep inside us that it's not feasible because if you apply the sharia the Islamic law you will you won't have a financial system you won't have capitalism your daughter will be veiled uh she will be quite sold in a marriage so uh uh we make the the the the the the trade off but we are not uh uh courageous enough to uh publicize it to publicize it we we we we we keep our mouth shut and we keep the floor for al-Qaeda and uh and uh and and and I don't see any evolution on that end unfortunately because the Islamic world is uh uh for two trends for two uh drivers first one the Islamic world is uh uh making euthanazi of its good elites when a good elite starts to emerge it's killed forced to exile it's it lives in London in Miami in New York in Paris or in Dubai because uh we are lacking now political elites in the uh in the Arab world for example uh we have no more uh socialist parties basist parties we have the the Islamist versus the the the dollarist the the the the the uh the moneymakers the the oligarchs which is the same in which happens in Morocco in Egypt uh because uh the the good people are expelled from politics they are told to to to go to Dubai to make money or to make startups in the USA so uh how can we make reform and the second stuff is that um the the the orthodox are very violent and they are right to be violent because only violence makes change happen quickly and the moderates they are not violent i don't have uh an a k-47 i don't know how to fight with the with the with the knife so that's why uh uh we are we we need uh uh we are very fragile that's why uh the the uh all the islamic world i mean all the arab world is ruled by uh military regimes monarchies uh authoritarians that keeps the orthodox from killing us because we are we are not able to defend ourselves so that's the big drama of of the uh of the and and you feel it in in the uk today or in france the moderates the muslim moderates are not able to they they are they don't have any weight they can be the majority we don't care because they are afraid uh uh uh and there is also some kind of um uh there is a lack of um of co of of awareness of of the stakes what is at stake today is uh the end of of the western world i think it's it's worth fighting but i don't feel it in the Islamic communities of europe they are they are very passive out of fear but also out of lack of of awareness of of what's going on uh in the west and i say if we lose the west where are we going to live you know uh we can't nobody wants to to go back to the Muslim world unless on holidays so where are we going to live if we ruin the West of if or if we let the West ruin itself because the West is also suiciding making suicide by by alone with wokeism and uh and uh and all what you what you had in mind that was a that was a fascinatingly frank answer uh and I think quite quite illuminating um and I it's probably a good segue into some of the news items which have been covered here on this side of the the the channel so to speak um we um have read that um according to a recent study that was cited in the Daily Telegraph that a majority of young French Muslims now rank sharia law above the law of the republic.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it was let me find it here at 50% 57% of Muslims aged 15 to 24 believe Islamic law should outrank French legislation in areas such as ritual slaughter of animals, marriage and inheritance and this is a steep rise from three decades ago when just 36% of French Muslims of the same age felt that Sharia should take precedence.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_00: So it also goes on to say that a third of those surveyed approved of all or part of Islamist positions in 2025 which is double the proportion expressed in 1998.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_00: Let's hear from you why you think that might be the case because here's what I think could be behind it, at least with regards to the initial period or the initial tranche of people having moved over from these Muslim countries.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_00: From what you've just described it sounds to me like some of those first peoples arriving in France would have been escaping some sort of disorder, tyrannical rule.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_00: And in your case I know your grandfather actually fought alongside the French one as part of the empire in the big wars of the 20th century.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_00: And so you actually have you make the argument for there being these close links and actually you besides being from different civilizations you're actual actually brothers on the front line.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_00: So does it is it right in thinking that really what's happened here is that you've got lots of people initially escaping and thank goodness I'm not around that anymore.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so you actually have just a lot more moderates and then where this the kind of more orthodox views are now more commonplace is this because these are more recent arrivals who've grown into a big diaspora which can't be broken down and have gotten there because it's just easier to arrive and frankly do have that colonizing mindset that you've mentioned.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_00: And so when we talk about there being second generation issues it's not just that it's because they've got all of these other arrivals coming saying no no this is the stake I'm planting in the ground we're Islamising France.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_00: Or is it something else like what what because when we talk about clash of civilizations and people hoping that things might get better and we'll learn how to live together um all the data seems to be going in one direction but I don't really know why that is.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_03: I I think all you covered is is right the difficulty of of of uh making a uh a comprehensive answer here is that it's um a set of of streams uh irrigating the minds of the people and that that uh make up at the end uh this uh claim uh to be uh to prefer Sharia to to the French law uh I think you could have added also the decadence of France France today is not the France the first generation met in the 60s 50s 70s uh when uh they came in the 60s 70s it was the goal still or Valérie Discardest now you have uh Macron who uh uh a kid a kid uh that is uh that has no I when I mean a kid a young man that has that doesn't want to act as the king of France and we are talking about people coming from feudal uh cultures where the king is important the emperor is important not democratic uh cultures where where symbols are important when so they uh so you you uh the the in the times of the goal attacking a policeman was unthinkable today it became normal and uh he's accused of racism and you attack uh a police station and you leave uh free waiting for your trial which is what was not the case in France in the 70s in the 70s we had the death penalty abolished in 81 by the by the left so uh uh uh the the France is less impressive and nobody wants to join a team of losers you know the people in the street in the in Piccadilly circus for example uh they're wearing uh the the shirts of I don't know New Manchester or Barcelona they don't wear the the loser's team shirt so the people are are the third generation is thinking that look France is losing the battle each day we see the the the the French police being attacked with no reaction um so let's join the likely the ones that are likely to to prevail which is a Human reaction.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_03: Also, Islam made great progress thanks to terrorism.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_03: Nobody talks about that, but that's true.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_03: 9-11, Bataclan, the London attacks, Barcelona attacks, Madrid attacks, 2004, Colonel, I mean the Berlin attacks.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_03: They are bright successes if you are cynical, because they transmitted the message that Islam is going to win.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_03: Or at least Islam is dangerous, you better be cautious.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_03: So people are not willing to support France now.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_03: They are willing to support the winners.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_03: Because we are afraid by nature and we are attracted to the to the to the uh the one who seems powerful.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_03: Um another uh item, you touch about that.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_02: The diasporas now are the the are the the new political actors of the West.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_03: You have a Muslim diaspora, I mean Moroccan one, Turkish one.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_03: We don't speak that much about Turkey, but it's important.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_03: Turkish one, Afghan one.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_03: So the people now are uh in the 60s they were migrants were isolated.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_03: They had to make an effort, at least to learn the language.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_03: Today you move from Morocco to the Moroccan diaspora in Holland or in Germany.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_03: You are still in Morocco because you talk to Moroccans, uh, you have WhatsApp.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_03: So you you have IA for translation, you don't need uh you have Uber eats, Uber food uh for uh for getting a job.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_03: So you don't have to make an effort.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_03: Uh you you you uh you manage to uh to rent a flat thanks to the diaspora, you you you you marry in the diaspora.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_03: So you don't have this uh effort to be made in order to integrate or to try to get closer to the West.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_03: Um I my last word would be the following uh the third generation, the fourth generation are suffering from a Malaise, an identity Malaise, because they were told they're French, they have French passports, but they feel they're not French.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_03: They are suffering, they have a mental health, I mean, issue.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_03: Uh because uh uh um their grandparents, they were not French.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_03: The people that came in the in the 70s, they were they were they felt them about themselves, they are Moroccans that will eventually come back to Morocco.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_03: Uh so the uh Algerians that will eventually come back to Algeria.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_03: So they didn't have this challenge, the identity challenge.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_03: Their grandchildren, they are born French and they feel, they know instantly that they're not French.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_03: So they are torn away by this malaise.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_03: And one way to try to alleviate uh the malaise, the suffering, is to say they embrace Sharia.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_03: For a moment, this is a declaration, which is of course important, but uh it's a wish.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_03: They wish to alleviate their pain, and they're pain, they're living the pain caused by the clash of civilization that is an intimate clash.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_03: It's not something that happens in Afghanistan or in the news.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_03: It's in them because they are torn by two identities.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_03: And Jesus said, uh, you cannot have you cannot have two masters because we will end up uh loving one and hating the other.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_03: This is what happens now in uh with the diversity.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_03: Uh these people they are trying to make a choice between their origin and their uh destination.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know, which is which would be France.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_03: And uh I kind of understand what's happening, which is an internal drama with political, with cataclysmic political repercussions on the vote, on solidarity.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_03: Imagine if tomorrow we have a war in France.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_03: I don't feel that these people will work with France, will fight with France.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not I'm not sure.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_03: If you don't feel uh if you don't feel uh linked in your body and soul to your uh French citizens, co-citizens, you will not uh spill your blood for them in in Ukraine, Germany, or whatever.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_03: I don't feel that.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_00: Let's linger on the future.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um and we'll we'll do two we'll do two scenarios, one being let's say someone's granted the um permission to create a new France, which is something that we spoke about last time, um, which you said there will be tears, and um we need to accept that things have changed.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and just before we get into that, the second thing that we can explore is separately what would happen if there was a regime change, um, specifically under Jordan Bardella.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_00: Last time Le Pen hadn't been banned from running.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_00: Bardella is now running ahead in the polls, and we can take a look at what that looks like.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_00: One thing I will say just before we get into those is the point you made about this internal drama, which could perhaps is irresolvable.
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um and it goes all the way back to that clash of civilizations point that we've talked about a few times and the fact that people do have ethnic and religious belonging, which is deeply rooted.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_00: You touched on an aspect people don't often touch on, which is the mental health side of things.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_00: And cultural belonging is something that we all actually want and need.
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_00: And you could argue from the angle of those who are part of Western nations which have torn themselves away or had previous generations bulldozed, tradition, heritage, culture, cultural belonging.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_00: We live in a state of social anime and isolation.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_00: And we uh to use some words of an English writer, Paul Kingsnorth, we are um affected by the poison gas of consumer capitalism that's like our life now, um, is we don't feel part of anything.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_00: We don't know our own history, and we're told it's uniquely bad.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_00: So we're demoralized as Westerners go.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_00: And then the point you're saying is that these large diasporas, even if they've they are second, third, fourth generation and they are French, they don't feel it, and they perhaps never will, but because they are feeling disconnected, it makes them depressed.
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_00: So even though they're in a land which finally treats them with human dignity, right, right, they also can't quite make peace with it.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_00: And so I suppose this feeds into your answer on the new France, right?
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_00: Is if if someone was granted the permission to go, right, let's try and make the best of what we've got here.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_00: I know you have made the argument or the made the case that you need to figure out who's not up for it, who's recently arrived and they need to go.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_00: But what does a new France look like?
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_00: Where do the tears come from?
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_00: And actually, based on all the things that we've said, is it possible?
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_00: Because this clash of civilizations, this internal drama, feels like it may, it may well be unbridgeable, but maybe it's not.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_03: I think that uh you have the answer there.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, you have something to build on.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_03: Uh it's unbridgeable.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_03: It's unbridgeable.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_03: Uh what you can what you can do is think uh make conclusions from it and try to build something positive.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_03: Uh it's unbridgeable, of course, uh, but some people fill the gap.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_03: Some Arabs, some blacks, some people from Pakistan, Bangladesh, whatever, they really assimilate.
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_03: Or if they don't assimilate fully, they live in good intelligence with the French people.
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_03: You have French police today.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_03: I I know at least two uh heads of uh unions of the French police officers that are from Morocco.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_03: Two girls, not non-veiled.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's a miracle.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_03: It's crazy.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_03: I think they're doing a good job.
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not a policeman, so I can't assess the job, but they're really making a good job.
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_03: Um you have a French troop called uh La Légion Étrangère.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_03: You have the same something similar in in the UK, maybe.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_03: I'm sure, I'm sure.
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_03: That came from the colony, uh, but she's made mainly from uh foreign uh born uh soldiers.
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_03: It's an elite troop.
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_03: So I mean uh uh the bulk I mean the we'll have to uh to to to to to work by uh case by case.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_03: Uh in the new France, uh we will have to make first uh some uh make a great reset on uh uh make a revolver a more mental revolution.
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_03: First, say what we have said.
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_03: Uh we cannot assimilate the book.
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_03: So some people will have to leave.
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_03: Some people will stay with us, but they can't assimilate.
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_03: Uh so they will have uh another citizenship status.
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_03: I call it the associate status.
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_03: They can work, they can pay tax, they can get the NHS, but they can't get elected.
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_03: Because we are building here a civilization.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_03: We have what what is at stake here is not an economy.
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_03: Economy can be robotized.
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_03: Tomorrow we'll all be uh homeless uh jobless, homeless, I don't know, but jobless.
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_03: And we all and IA will do the job.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_03: What is at stake here is uh the life, the civilization, the way of life.
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_03: So uh uh we can make discrimination, which is not a bad word, uh on the on the level of uh assimilation.
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_03: Um behind that, there is uh a recognition that the republic is dead.
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_03: The republic is dead because uh um uh you can't uh in order to save France, you will have to kill the republic because the republic prevents you from discriminalizing the citizens on the level of assimilation to the Western culture.
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_03: It prevents you from making mass migration because it's not democratic, you can't treat people from their passport and tell them to go back.
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_03: You can you can you can't even deport the uh the illegal alliance today per European laws and so so the republic is gone.
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_03: And you can't also um uh uh revive the Brit the Christian faith under the republic because republic is built, uh tailor-made for fighting the Christian faith.
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_03: The French Republic, it's a republic of maçons, a republic of anti-clerical elites, the law of laicity, you know, the the separation between the church and the state.
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_03: It was uh nice and sweet in the 90s 10 because uh it was a clash between uh Christianity and and masonry or socialism, let's say.
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_03: Today we have a clash between Islam and Christianity.
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_03: So you have to uh to let Christianity fight back.
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_03: Today in France, Christianity is uh handcuffed, it can't fight back, you can't go in the street with a cross.
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, you can do that, but you can enter in the in a public building with a cross.
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_03: Uh you can't uh have uh public funding for some churches and so on and so on.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_03: You can't uh have uh faith exposed on TV freely.
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_03: Uh so the new France will get rid of the public.
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_03: It will go into a new system.
• 55:53
  SPEAKER_03: If you want, if you would like to say France, that is more of an imperial system where you have two speeds, and you have uh a great reset totally of this this the the the the the the the religious uh issue, and also we have to understand um people now are are there is an epidemic in the world of moving.
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_03: People are uh there's a pandemia of moving, mobility.
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_03: People would like to move, they feel they are entitled to move.
• 56:25
  SPEAKER_03: It is the uh the guilty is the West, because uh thanks to WhatsApp, Snapchat, colonization, whatever, people they want they won't like to see, they see that they're connected to the world, so they like to move.
• 56:39
  SPEAKER_03: Uh by the way, uh the the burden of immigration is higher in Saudi Arabia than in Europe, or in the UAE than in Europe, because the the the the uh the Indians from the subcontinent of India they are moving like crazy.
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_03: The Indian diaspora is is is a phenomenon per se.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_03: Anyway, uh what I mean is that we have to make a great reset in our migration laws, uh allow short-term stays uh and uh restrain long-term residency.
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_03: Um people sometimes they come to us to get health because in their countries the elites are corrupt, they can't give them help.
• 57:22
  SPEAKER_03: Why do not uh revive the uh the Christian charities and make hospitals in Cairo or in Casablanca instead of having people move to Paris to get uh it will be uh less expensive for us to pay to bring them health in their country than to have them in our countries.
• 57:44
  SPEAKER_03: This is kind of uh this is kind of pragmatism.
• 57:48
  SPEAKER_03: Uh um uh because we have to understand that the game has changed.
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_03: And uh uh we we can't build um uh uh Chinese wall around us all the time.
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_03: We have to to to give some slack, but we have to work for our interest.
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_03: Because what would be the good the the only good solution, which is unfeasible, because we are not able to do it, and because the world will not accept, uh, is to colonize back the North Africa and Africa and change the elites because migration is the fruit of the broken elites of the South.
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_03: People they don't want to leave their countries.
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_03: Of course, they want to travel the world, okay.
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_03: But they don't want to leave the countries.
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_03: Nobody wants to leave Nigeria or Morocco or Egypt.
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_03: But the countries are unbearable, unleavable.
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_03: Lack of health, lack of justice, lack of uh education, I mean, unbearable for the masses.
• 58:44
  SPEAKER_03: Because the local elites, they don't feel concerned by the the the the quality of life of the population.
• 58:53
  SPEAKER_03: They have other priorities.
• 58:55
  SPEAKER_03: Not only looting.
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not talking about the, I'm not saying that all the elites of the soft are looters.
• 59:00
  SPEAKER_03: For example, in Morocco, the elites are obsessed by infrastructure, hardware, high-speed train, solar panels, solar energy.
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_03: They don't want to talk about uh public health.
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_03: What can I do?
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_03: So uh uh so the ideal solution that is not practical is to change the elites.
• 59:19
  SPEAKER_03: But we, of course, uh the the UN won't won't let us, and we don't have the uh I don't see Macron doing it.
• 59:25
  SPEAKER_03: Uh he's not able because you have to be a real leader to do that, and we don't have this generation anymore.
• 59:31
  SPEAKER_03: So uh the the new France will uh to be a uh to make uh uh summary, it will not be a republic.
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_03: Uh it will be um uh um more Christian, I mean, in order to to resist to the Islamic challenge, and it it will set up a new paradigm uh with its vicinity.
• 59:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um we cannot um I mean we cannot uh keep business uh as usual.
• 1:00:11
  SPEAKER_03: I mean we went too far in in in immigration.
• 1:00:18
  SPEAKER_03: We went too far.
• 1:00:19
  SPEAKER_03: So uh uh and it's like uh a drug.
• 1:00:23
  SPEAKER_03: The people in the south are addicted to this migration, to to feel entitled to move, and so we have to be very smart, but uh to to to in order to be smart, we have uh to get get rid of the handcuffs we we uh we put to ourselves that are the republic, the human rights paradigm, and so on, so on.
• 1:00:49
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you've given me lots of things to think about with regards to the conversation we're having here in in Great Britain, which is certainly adjacent to what's happening in in France.
• 1:01:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um but but very briefly exploring the other scenario.
• 1:01:05
  SPEAKER_00: So let's start thinking about potential regime change in France.
• 1:01:09
  SPEAKER_00: So as I mentioned in the lead up to this particular section, um when we last spoke, Le Pen hadn't yet been banned from running.
• 1:01:18
  SPEAKER_00: She has been now.
• 1:01:19
  SPEAKER_00: Jordan Bardella seems to be running in the running highly in the polls.
• 1:01:22
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, he shows that it shows that he would win in the first and second rounds.
• 1:01:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't know much about the policy platform.
• 1:01:29
  SPEAKER_00: That's not what we need to talk about.
• 1:01:30
  SPEAKER_00: But let's just imagine it it starts to go for a bit of a pushback against what is being referred to as Islamo-leftism.
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_00: So you've you've got the um kind of Islamic N-CLABs and ethnic N-Clabs that are there.
• 1:01:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then you have generally the left-wing supporters of uh um any of these groups in the name of anti-racism.
• 1:01:55
  SPEAKER_00: Presumably Bardella would try to bring the laws of the republic to bear.
• 1:02:00
  SPEAKER_00: He would try to um make sure the constitution was adhered to and law and order would attempt would would the goal would be to enforce it.
• 1:02:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um the fictional 2030 scenario that Jean Um Louis uh Sanchier had come up with in the in the article was that if Bardella, he didn't say Bardella, but if anyone tried to put this in place, that you would start to see a pushback immediately that it's Islamophobic, it's exclusionary, and we would the physical manifestation would be blockades, demonstrations, physical attacks, looting, theft.
• 1:02:43
  SPEAKER_00: Let's fast forward to Bardella.
• 1:02:45
  SPEAKER_00: If Bardella does any of the things that people would expect him to do, do you think that would be a flash point and you would see um physical physical reaction on the strip cities uh streets of France?
• 1:03:00
  SPEAKER_03: It's likely, it's likely this is why we have to give a deep dive in the history of colonization and uh take the the um the lessons, the unheard lessons of colonization, because uh France colonized the Arab world, part of it, and even if it was wrong, because colonization is wrong, even if France was wrong in Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, and don't talk about Senegal and so on, let's talk about the Arab countries, it had uh no unanimity against it.
• 1:03:38
  SPEAKER_03: You had people in Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia working with France.
• 1:03:42
  SPEAKER_03: They were not traitors, they understood that the independentists were crazy.
• 1:03:47
  SPEAKER_03: Especially in Algeria, they were terrorists, FLN.
• 1:03:50
  SPEAKER_03: So the uh Muslims in Algeria were collaborating with France actively to keep the colonization in place, however, under a softened version, less discrimination, less apartheid, a gradual transition to independence in 20, 30 years.
• 1:04:09
  SPEAKER_03: Uh and they were more, uh their numbers were higher than the numbers of the dissidents, the independentists.
• 1:04:17
  SPEAKER_03: You had uh around 150,000 Muslims in the French army in Algeria, and we you had at the maximum 50,000 members of the guerrilla.
• 1:04:27
  SPEAKER_03: Three to one.
• 1:04:29
  SPEAKER_03: And you and you had few desertions in the French army, in the Muslims in the French army, the Muslims fighting their own brothers.
• 1:04:37
  SPEAKER_03: What I'm trying to say is that if Mardella is serious about reform in France, he has to keep this in mind that he has not against him a Muslim bloc.
• 1:04:50
  SPEAKER_03: He has a block, he has not a block, he has uh factions with people willing to shake his hand under conditions, and you have to prepare to prepare these conditions and to allow this uh this handshake to be to happen.
• 1:05:07
  SPEAKER_03: You can co-opt Muslim elites in France uh by the uh in the administration, in the public service, in the economical elite, cultural elites, uh you have you you you you can build bridges, but you have to be very smart and make Machiavelli politics.
• 1:05:24
  SPEAKER_03: If I were uh French minister, I would have my own team, I won't say of jihadists, but of Islamists.
• 1:05:32
  SPEAKER_03: Because if there is a if we if our diagnosis is right, if we say that there is an identity malaise in the Muslim youth in France, black also, but let's say Muslim, so these people will look for psychologists, shrinks that are the Islamic groups that tell them don't worry, Islam is the solution, alleviate your pain.
• 1:05:55
  SPEAKER_03: I will give you some some mental uh sense of belonging so on.
• 1:06:01
  SPEAKER_03: If I were the Minister of the Interior, I would have my own groups of Muslim, fake Muslim brotherhoods, doing this job, but for me, in order to keep me to keep an eye on what's going on and to keep the people in a bubble harmful.
• 1:06:15
  SPEAKER_03: So what I'm calling for is a revolution in the in the in the internal uh uh uh management of the the the Muslim bloc uh the the the the Muslim world in France uh divide to conquer co-opt the right people uh and come on with a new project Mr.
• 1:06:34
  SPEAKER_03: Badella if he would like to avoid civil war he has to come with a new what is the the the the exciting project for the Muslim that will work with France the loyalist the status quo uh conqu in my point of view a new project should be revamping totally Europe get rid of Germany because uh we are making Europe for the German interests so France is getting poorer um poorer less important uh less industrialized for the the sake of Germany uh this is a failure Europe had failed because Europe was supposed to be a power multiplier for France which is not the case it's a power multiplier only for Germany and the UK was wise to leave really wise uh so uh if I I I I think that an exciting project would be to say okay we will redo Europe rebuild Europe under our conditions we will dominate the Germans I don't mean you I don't mean we don't need to invade Prussia again but we need to to to which would make which will uh by the way it's only a joke but it will allow us to forget about uh the ethnic tensions if you have a common enemy you forget about Islam and uh LGBT and whatever you you you go for war you you you become brother again but it's uh at the very expensive price but a new Europe where France is the leader maybe with uh with Italy and and uh and the the the the Latin world let's recreate a Latin power in Europe maybe uh no i'm just you know uh making uh uh elucations you know uh um this may be uh because uh this maybe create uh an exciting uh uh project i'm thinking about uh sometimes about a confederation between the uh france and the the the North Africa you can think about linking the governments not in a federation but a kind of confederation where we multiply power for example the the the the the dream of the Arabs is to conquer Africa to Islami to make it Muslim because we used to go to Africa to take the the slaves nobody talks about that please don't talk about that because it's racist but the the Muslim slave trade is uh higher than the triangular trade made by the the the the Western powers in the uh after the Middle Ages anyway uh uh France also has some stacks in Africa we can build something there uh connect these ambitions at least for example have a common military power to intervene in Sahel the Moroccans have a strong elite force that can do the job with the French uh we can um uh um um fight climate change together uh we can create a kind of circulation of elites or even of students uh under conditions what uh what what I'm talking about is to create desire appetite of power of prosperity because uh if we remain on the defensive mode we don't have that many allies internally and externally so uh uh to to answer the question but Bardera should be uh prepare uh uh uh the context he cannot you know just start and make the the the the the what has to be done by the way he's very young which is not uh it's not it's not it's not his fault but he's young and uh he has I have the impression he has no staff and uh we re let's remember uh the first term of Mr.
• 1:10:12
  SPEAKER_00: uh Trump all the the the the the the issues he had all the uh and he came back with a stab that is uh very very strong so I'm quite I'm quite worried yes well we we have uh something similar going on here with regards to a total loss of faith in the traditional two-party system so the Conservatives and Labour Party both polling at historic lows though the Labour Party even lower than the Conservatives such as their unpopularity since they rose to power last year um and so we have Reform UK which is currently seen as the front runner to be making a government in 2029 and we have a similar conversation going on which is because everyone's so fed up and so and sees that the system has no legitimacy now people are starting to hope that reform might come along and fix everything.
• 1:11:10
  SPEAKER_00: But of course the British state is so um hampered by whether it's high debt, inefficient bureaucracy just generally things don't work and the very resistant civil service uh i e the people who are that yes yeah um so there's the risk that reform get in on this huge mandate and then can't actually do anything or the problems are just too great.
• 1:11:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so the system loses then all legitimacy because the gr the great white hope has just has just disappeared and it sounds like something similar to Jordan Bardella is he could cut get in on a wave of optimism but problems are too great or he doesn't have the people to execute the plan or as you've said the plan might be too too uh crudely put together it might focus on things as these wide issues but actually there's a lot of depth in there that you need to be careful of yeah um yeah well Driss as ever it's been a fascinating conversation I hope we have many more of them um you did mention you were working on another book I don't know if it's too soon for you to start saying when we might expect that to be published I know you're currently writing it um what or if not is there anything else we can expect from you in the near future to be um to be alive and uh to be alive and in good shape to tackle next year and uh that I I'm feeling that things will will accelerate in France and that we must be in good shape to to to to be ready.
• 1:12:53
  SPEAKER_00: Elections uh in city councils uh in March I'm not sure that Mr Macron will end up his uh his term I'm not sure so maybe we have uh a new uh parliamentary election cycle and maybe presidential we don't know uh so um I am working short term on this new book I hope it will be uh in the streets by March maybe earlier I hope in English also and uh I hope that uh I I'll um the main issue with with in my position is that to to to fully uh cope with the status of uh uh lonely wolf because I'm not in a party so I'm I don't have a family that supports me that gives me instructions which can be boring or and support and uh and um so it it's uh one must build uh steel inside to to to to keep the the to keep on track and not to go back to be a salary man and and drink uh caiperinias and say I don't care about uh Jordan Bardella or France because uh the the the the likely outcome of of all this is is is that uh the the the the revolution the revolutions we fear or we desire happen and nobody takes notice about you you know it's uh this is the law of history so what the the temptation is there to say okay uh I don't care uh uh and I'll and I'll come back to uh an easier life I'm no hero at all because the real heroes are dying uh but uh what I'm telling you is that um uh this is why the the the the the the the establishment is so strong because uh he he makes a life miserable for dissidents whistleblowers lonely thinkers what are called lonely wolves you know solitary wolves uh people that that that that are not for sale and that are not uh uh uh ready to enter uh uh a team you know uh to be tagged right wing left wing uh muslim in Muslim brother it's so easy to be a Muslim in a Muslim brotherhood or in Rassemblement national with drama because yeah um uh but I think that there is a in these transition times we need someone that is people that are really thinking outside of the box otherwise we'll we will uh we will uh we will we will I don't know if you feel but everything feels uh sterile you know there is less less lack of fecondity you know of of blossom in the in the in the in the public life we are all you know I mean people are in boxes and they they're living a character and we we have to allow some agility and uh that's the that's the challenge to to pay the bills keep the mind uh good mindset and keep on um uh trying to think outside the box so not close not too distant from the people but not too close to them you know it's uh but it's a hobby for uh for uh it's also a hobby i i like it i'm not complaining um it's actually fascinating to hear your um internal battle so to speak with regards to how you choose to do work it's something that i think i'm on a similar path to you but i'm further back on it i'm not there yet so i was i feel like that lone wolf that point you make about the the power of the establishment and how hard it makes life for anyone who is dissident or just doesn't agree with the current way of things and and I mean that from the progressive left agenda which has pushed on everyone to even the rising populist wave which I am sympathetic to in many respects but also totally not wanting to go and jump on the bandwagon and be a party man and um I I even just left um employment within a company as someone who is salaried to go self-employed to do contract work to allow me to do more independent work on the podcast and writing and come up with some broadcasting ideas that are focused on the issues I care about.
• 1:17:16
  SPEAKER_00: But the point you just made the lone wolf um yeah I've I've felt it all the way up to now and feel it again and you're right you sometimes you feel like you would actually quite like the support of a party or some sort of a foundation or something which you uh attach your identity to but I've always never felt comfortable doing that.
• 1:17:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's more being the observer and the commentator rather than being a part of it.
• 1:17:45
  SPEAKER_00: Even though I recognize the need for them and it's just a natural human instinct but um yeah I'm gonna take away you as inspiration because thank you you you talking away I definitely should yeah we do need to steal ourselves for the fight and things do feel very sterile and uncreative but at the same token it feels like things are happening right and they need to happen and you need creativity and different ideas otherwise you get rubbish.
• 1:18:12
  SPEAKER_03: Right right right and and uh I uh um uh we are at this this from change I think uh few inches from change uh and one must also it's an advice I'm uh older than you much older uh sorry allow me to give you an advice or to give an advice to the audience um one should uh remain at its at its position I'm no leader I'm not the goal I'm no Napoleon so I'm looking for the leader who I would be able to assess or at least to help from a distance because uh uh the the founder of the Muslim Brotherhood he was he had he had our profile more or less he was a guy from um he was a teacher of I think Arabic he was not a military guy he was not a fighter but he went so far as to build an organization get uh jailed and so on so on i i'm i'm not i'm not this kind of profile i don't uh this is not my set of uh skills um so i think that uh in order to suffer less and to be more confident one must understand his profile and stick to it and there is providence there is god uh we will meet the the the the right people if in this life if it's if the revolution or the change is is is uh meant for this existence uh because there are exceptional guys and women also uh in the field uh i'm i'm not i don't think that the human the white race or the european man is is is over i don't think so we have he's uh under uh sedation by the poison of capitalism is for sure but i i i think that we we uh there are uh uh springs of of of of of vitality uh what we need is is is a big a push from the from the man uh uh upstairs well let's wait for that providential push yeah uh dress thank you it's been my pleasure bye bye to speak again thank you bye bye bye