Latest / The Bob Lefsetz Podcast / Jay Cooper

Transcript

Jay Cooper · The Bob Lefsetz Podcast

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Sets podcast.
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: My guest today is Jay Cooper. Jay, you called me
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: about your old client, Rod Temperton, right, I was writing
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: about Quincy Jones. Can you tell me more about Rod?
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: Yes. Rod was originally a member of heat Wave that
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: I represented, who had a number of major hits and
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: most of them were written by Rod Temperton. And I
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: was representing heat Wave, and then Rod, when he left
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: heat Wave, retained me to continue his representation of him
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: as a songwriter. Well, it was a heat Wave. He
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: wrote Boogie Knights and Always in Forever a number of
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: other hits. And then evidently Quincy Jones had heard of
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: these records and he was doing an album with Michael Jackson,
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: and he called. I got a hold of Rod. Rod
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: told me about it, came over here into Los Angeles,
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: and Quincy hired him to come here and to do
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: an album with Michael Jackson. And that album turned out
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: to be the songs that Rod wrote for it.
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: So like back in the day with heat Wave, how'd
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: you get clients? Were you actively searching or once you
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: made your name they came to you.
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: I never actively searched, exactly but they came to be.
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: They were recommended to be by producer in London whose
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: name at the moment I don't remember.
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: Let's go back to the beginning. Did you always plan
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: to be an entertainment attorney.
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: No, I planned to be a musician from the time
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: I was a little kid. I wanted to be a musician,
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: That's all I wanted. I studied music from the time
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: I was three years old. My father was a musician,
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: and I was ready when I finished high school to
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: go off and to get on the road with a band.
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: And my parents said, no, no, you My parents were Jewish.
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: Of course, that means you have no choice. You have
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: to go to law school or medical school. So they
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: introduced me to a lawyer and they said, okay, I'll
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: go to law school, but I got to find a
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: music school too, So I founded DePaul University in Chicago,
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: where I grew up, and I had a music school
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: of law school, and it turned out they were in
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: the same building, so it was perfect. I did my
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: law classes in the morning and my music classes in
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: the afternoon, and I worked my way through school playing music,
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: playing with various bands and things like that. The Chicago
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: area and I finished law school, took the bar exam.
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: It was three days and day four I left with
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: the band and ultimately came to California. And I was
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: working here in California as a musician for a number
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: of years, and eventually that's the story I've told a
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: long time. How I got into law was through drugs.
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: What this was My music friends were getting busted for
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: possession and I was the only one they knew who
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: had a law degree, and so they asked me to
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: see if I could help them out. So I took
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: the bar exam and started doing helping them with their
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: drug cases. And while I was doing drug cases, they said,
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: can you read this record contract? Can you read this
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: television contract? Can you read this movie contract? So I
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: opened a little office in Beverly Hills, and that's where
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: I started.
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: Okay, so what were this what were you know, marijuana?
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: I won't say it's exactly legal, but close to it
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: in California. What was it like in the fifties.
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: Well, it was, it was It was not bad. It
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: was nothing particularly wrong. Musicians many were on marijuana, some
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: were on hard drugs. Bands used to have like four
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: different kinds of musicians and they would have the hard
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: drug musicians, the marijuana musicians, the drinker musicians, and the
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: straits who did nothing. And so when you lost the
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: trombone player, you had to find somebody. You had to
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: find somebody who fit in that category with the tron
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: buempare also a druggie or was he also a drinker
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: or was he something else? So musicians were not at
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: that time, and I don't and I guess since they
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: were not. They didn't carry guns, they didn't carry knives,
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: they weren't violent. They they were more i would say,
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: more mellow and interested in their in their careers and
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: their their horns than they were in anything else.
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: Now, you said your father was a musician. Was he
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: a full time musician at one time? Yes, he was,
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: And tell me more about his career.
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: He was. He was a marvelous musician. He was in
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: a very famous band called the Wayne King Orchestra. They
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: were from the They used to play the Aragon Ballroom
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: in Chicago. They had a weekly broadcast from there, and
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: he was the lead saxophone player and the singer in
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: that and he did that for many years.
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: Okay. And you started taking music lessons as young.
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: Age, Yes, they're three years old.
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: Three years old?
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: Three years old?
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: What the piano at three?
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: No, My father gave me a little soprano saxophone, a
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: very small little sopran which I still have to this day.
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: And I played it for a year or two till
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: my teeth fell out. And while I was waiting for
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: my teeth to grow in, I went to piano, and
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: then eventually to clarinet, and then back to saxophone, and
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: then added flute over the years.
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: And what instrument did he play?
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: He played saxophone, he played saxophone, and he played trumpet,
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: and he played clarinet.
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: And do you have any siblings?
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: I had a sister, yes, And was she older younger?
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: She was younger, seven years or five years younger, But
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: she never was a performer.
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: Okay, So in this era, in the thirties and forties,
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: you're playing your instrument at home? Are you playing out
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: with school bands, bands and halls? What's it like?
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: Well, of course I was in high school. I was
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: in the school band, I was in the school orchestra,
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: I was in the pep band, I was in the
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: marching band. I was doing all of that, doing my studies. Uh,
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: and then uh, forming bands outside. We would play the
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: local the local park houses and all that. The parks
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: all had a building where you could have dances and
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: things like that. And that's what I was doing, and
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: that I was playing weddings and playing dances and playing
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: various things of that nature. Yeah, enough to make a
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: living to pay my way through school.
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: And what kind of music were you playing?
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: Big band type music or big band a lot or
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: play small bands and weddings? I played Polish weddings, Jewish weddings,
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: Greek weddings, Italian weddings, played them all. We played the
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: polkas at the at the the Polish weddings, we played
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: seven eight time music. In Greek weddings, we played all
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: the Jewish music, the Klasberg type of music. Played anything.
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: And were you playing in multiple acts multiple bands?
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: Was there one multiple multiple? I was a free lance musician.
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: I'll take any call.
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: Was the union involved at all at that time?
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: Yes? I joined. I would remember the union by fifteen.
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: Yes, now the union is almost irrelevant. But was the
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: union in control? Everybody worked were a member of the union.
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: Back then, everybody worked through the union because they paid
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: you had minimum minimum per minimum salaries per gig that
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: you played, and that's where you got all your jobs.
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: You went down to the union like on Saturday afternoon
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: and you hung around and somebody say, hey, we're looking
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: for a saxophone player for Saturday night. I'm looking for
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: this for Sunday night. I'm looking for this. And that's
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: how you got your jobs.
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: So you said you graduated from law school, you took
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: the bar, and then you immediately went on the road.
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: Tell me about that.
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I got it. The first thing was I got
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: a call from a band called Larry Fhoteen. He was
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: an originally he had his own band. He was an
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: original arranger, I should say, for the Sammy Kay Orchestra.
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: And we went to New York, worked around, worked the
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: East coast. We were drove in cars, three or four
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: separate cars a group of us, and we were working
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: the west East coast. And then I got a call
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: from the band called Henry Bussey band that was a
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: big band in the days. Henry Bussy was originally a
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: first trumpet player for the Paul Whitebolt Orchestra, and then
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: he had an orchestra. He was based out of Los Angeles,
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: and I got a call they lost their elite outdo
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: player the Midwest. So I was doing a record date
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: in Cincinnati at that time with the Larry Foteen band,
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: and so I called around to see if I get
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: a sub for me, and I found a sub, and
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: I called my parents. They drove the sub down to
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: Cincinnati where I was, and they drove me to where
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: I had to meet the band with Henry Bussey band.
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: And two weeks later that same year, I was in
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: California and I said, this is for me.
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: So how did this band know of you?
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: Well, I was recommended by another saxophone player. I guess
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: he got the call and he didn't want to go out,
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: and so he recommended me somebody I hadn't met at
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: Depault at music school.
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: So, okay, you're in Los Angeles, then what goes on?
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: I'm in Los Angeles and now, of course I'm looking
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: for work and I did so many people except the band.
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: I arrived and I used to go down with my
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: horn to the Musicians Union, which was at eight seventeen
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: Vine Street in those days. I go there every day
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: with mount horns to practice because I was living in
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: a little apartment in Hollywood and you couldn't practice your
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: instruments there, so I would walk a mile to a
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: local forty seven on Vine Street. I practiced my horns,
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: and then they also had rehearsal rooms there. And then
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: one of the bands heard me playing practicing and they said, hey,
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: we need an alto player. So I joined that band.
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: It was a rehearsal band, and you met a lot
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: of musicians, with a lot of great musicians there through
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: the rehearsal band. Because we used to we used to
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: play charts for all the arrangers used to bring in
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: their charts try them out, and so we got to
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: know all the arrangers. I got to know all these musicians,
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: and I started getting calls for work and I would
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: go out with I'd go out with Nat Cole, I'd
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: go out with Bobby Darren. I was out with Frank
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: Sinatra for quite a while. I was out with I
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: went out with the Less Brown Band. I went out
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: with the Charlie Charlie Barnett band. I was part of
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: Baited Ferguson's band, and I did a lot of Latin bands.
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: I was playing Latin bands and used to Sunday night
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: on I had the Palladium Bowroom in La used to
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: have five six bands doing Latin Night. On Sunday, you'd
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: have two thousand of latinos dancing. It was incredible and
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: sometimes I'd play with four of the five bands. It
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: was just a great time. There was lots of opportunity.
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: There was ballrooms everywhere in La. There was jazz clubs,
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: there was every studio had full symphony orchestras. So you
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: had seven full time symphony orchestras in the studios. You
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: had three networks, they all had full time orchestras. And
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: there was clubs everywhere, so there were opportunities to play.
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: Was enormous. I was became the I was the benefactor
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: of that, and so the beneficiary I should say.
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: Once you were in La, did you go on the
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: road again or did you stay?
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: Yes? Yes, I would go out and go out and
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: come back. Yeah.
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: So what was it like being on the road in
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: the fifties as opposted today?
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: Well, I can't tell you about the road today, but
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: I can tell you about it then. It was. It
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: was fine, It was there was rarely any problems of
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: any sort. You would go out for three weeks, four weeks,
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: five weeks and then come back. You know, Uh, you
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: worked in the big ballrooms. There were ballrooms. Every every
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: city had ballrooms right either inside the city or on
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: the outskirts of the city, or and you had theaters
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: where they you would play between the movies. You would
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: you would be on the stage and the movie theater
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: played between that. Or the big dance halls. Every every
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: city had a big dance hall somewhere. And it was
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: wonderful to keep running into run into other bands. And
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: one of the great things was one time I was
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: with the Less Brown Band and we were in I
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: think it was may have been Salt Lake, I'm not
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: positive at the moment, but we were in the hotel.
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: And of course, when you're on the bus and all that,
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: you're dressing your jeans, your shirt, you're kind of ragged
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: and all that, particularly when you're driving three miles four
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: hundred miles a day. And we were a bunch of
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: us were standing outside when we're at this hotel, and
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: here comes the Count Basie band pulling up the stay
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: of the same hotel. They all got off the bus
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: in suits and times they looked like they just they
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: just were dressed for the case. It was just wonderful
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: to see. It was a great time. It was a
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: great time, Okay.
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: The rock and roll musicians wanted to go on the
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: road to meet the girls, to do drugs. Was it
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: the same in your era?
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: No, No, it was, it was I suppose there will
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: always be some of those. There were certainly a number
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: of people on hard drugs and things like that. But no,
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: we were all there for the music. We were there
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: for the music, not for the girls. Uh. We were
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: there for the music, definitely, okay.
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: And what was it like being Jewish on the road.
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: Nothing, You didn't know you were Jewish or anything else.
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: And what about when you had toured with black musicians?
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: What was that like? Oh, well, you had to be
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: you had to be very careful where you would stay.
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: But there was no there was no no particular, no
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: particular problem. The problem with when black musicians at that
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: time was they had to live with what they called
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: the Green Book, which I'm sure you know about, which
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: was the list of places where they could stay, where
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: they could eat. Uh. And so that was always difficult.
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: But uh, that was always difficult, probably still difficult to
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: this day. Other than that, it was generally generally fine.
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: We you know, you knew what hotels to stay at
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: you knew where they were where. It was acceptable to
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: have musicians and things like that, but generally that time
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: there was not a lot of them. There was a
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: crazy craziness going on with in the bands. It was
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: there was pretty pretty normal. People were pretty serious about
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: what they were doing.
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: So what would you and the other band members do
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: when you were not on stage, when you were on
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: the bus or in the hotel room? How would you
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: pass the time?
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: Uh? Well, I always sat in the back of the bus.
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: The leader always had in the front of the bush.
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: The girl singer always had in the front of the bus.
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: Uh So everybody had their place where they use They said,
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: I like to sit in the back. You read, you read,
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: you're looking to see, you talk to you, talk to
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: your friends. Nothing dramatic, nothing dramatic.
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: Okay. So from the time that you came to Los
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: Angeles till you opened your office, how long a period
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: of time was that?
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: About three or four years, I guess.
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: Okay. So in that three or four years, excuse me,
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: you were practicing.
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: No law, no, not at all whatsoever.
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: Okay. So you have these friends, they get into varying
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: scraps with drugs. You're a newbie lawyer, So how do
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: you figure out how to defend them?
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: You do a lot of quick reading. It was it
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: was fairly simple. Let me take an example. There was
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: a lot of clubs on Sunset Boulevard, amongst other places.
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: So I be playing that. There was the Macambo, there
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: was Ciro's, there was the Crescendo, there was the Interlude.
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: There was a number of clubs there, amongst other places,
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: of course, all around the city. So let's say we
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: were working at the Macombo, all the clubs, everything closed
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: to two in the morning. At two in the morning,
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: we will be packing up. The cops would be backstage
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: and they say to the to the guy, open up
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: your case. Okay. They opened the cases, so there'd be
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: some drugs in it. Musicians didn't. It was easy for
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: the cops because musicians didn't carry knives, they didn't carry guns,
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: they didn't resist the rest. They weren't violent. So they
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: were giving it a rest document and saying you got
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: the peer in court at such and such a time.
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: It was clearly illegal search and seizure. There was a
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: motion we used to make at that time called nine
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: nine to five. I don't know what it's called today,
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: and we may go down to the court and make
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: a motion of illegal search and season probable cause to
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: accost them, and we walk out the door. And usually
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: I'd walk out the door with a contract or motion
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: picture contract or a television contract or some kind of
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: contract to review. And so I studied a lot.
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: Okay, how long after you started practicing law did you
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: stop playing music professionally?
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: Probably another seven eight years something like that.
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: Well, really, so, did you think that you were living
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: the dream in your music career or was there a
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: rung above that you were trying to reach.
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: Well, my rung was to be a studio musician, to play,
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: to play record and all that. And I was starting
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: to get a lot of very good work in town.
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: I was achieving it. And then I was trying to
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: to do both. I was trying to do the loan,
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: I was trying to do music. So one day, when
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: I was driving home, I fell asleep at the wheel.
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: Fortunately I was not in a bad accident, and I realized,
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: I have to make a choice. I can't continue to
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: do both.
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: And how hard was it to give up the music? Emotionally?
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: Very difficult?
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: And when you stopped, did you continue to play your
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: horn or did you put it down because it was
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: too painful to play?
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: No. I continued to play my horn. I continued to
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: do things not quite as much, and I would join
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: some local My training was, my training was my teachers
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: were in Chicago Siphony, so my training, my training was
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: classical music. So I started to do with local community
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: orchestras and things like that, which I continued to do
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: for a long time.
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: Okay, so you're in Beverly Hills, you have your office.
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: What's the legal landscape like that? Are you a party
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: of one? Are there ten people like you? The big
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: law firms predate this. What's it like?
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: Well, I couldn't get a job because I was not
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: ready to give up my music. I was looking around
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: for a place. So I was trying to figure out
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: what to do. And so I got a little space.
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: It was an ad in the trades, and I got
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: a space for services. So I said, okay, I went
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: to this place on South Beverly Drive in Beverly Hills,
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: and I got a little office. I would have to
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: render certain services, like going to court for the attorney
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: there that I worked for a name with Lou Most
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: and he would pay me twenty five dollars a court appearance,
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: but I would have a little office I can work
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: out of. He never paid me the twenty five dollars,
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: so I lasted for a couple of years and then
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: left and got another office on my own. In the meantime,
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: I was continued to work and I started to work
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: with the La Philharmonic and I did that for six years.
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: Along with this, I was doing there playing their saxophone
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: work and for instance, like pictures that an exhibition with
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: the symphony, the balo, revels, bleo and things like that
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: with a saxophone with them. And then for Pop Knights,
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: I would play saxophone and clarinet for them with them
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: with the La Philharmonic, I was doing that and that
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: was terrific. Alongside while I was while I started by
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: practice of law, and I was doing some record dates
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: here and there and things of that nature. So I
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: was doing both until it became impossible.
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: And was there enough work because you were constantly in
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: contact with people.
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there was enough work. That was enough work.
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: So now you put down your horn profession and you're
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: one hundred percent of lawyer. What goes on?
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: Then? Well, okay, so I I had another, a second
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: little office on my own while I was going along,
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: and then I had moved to another one. I practiced,
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: started to get busy, and then I decided I only
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: wanted to do entertainment law and I didn't want to
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: do I was doing what they call door law. The
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: door law is whatever comes in the door. I did divorces,
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: I did adoptions, I did taxes, I did personal injury cases.
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: I did a zoning case. I did a murder case.
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: I did a robbery case, and I did I was
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: doing contract television contracts, mostly picture contracts. So one day
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: I said, I'm just want to do the entertainment stuff.
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: So I hired my first lawyer and I said, you're
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: going to do everything I don't want to do. And
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: that was Chuck Hurwitz. Eventually became Cooper and Hurwitz, and
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: after that it became Cooper Epstein at Hurwitz. Epstein was
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: somebody who had his own firm across the hall from
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: us in Beverly Hills, and he was looking to change
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: his situation and he came over with us with a
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: couple of attorneys and we started our little firm a
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: Cooper Epstein. Herwits the seven lawyers, we eventually grew to
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: about fifty.
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: Jumping way ahead, how do you transfer from Cooper Epstein
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: and Hurwitz to Greenberg Towing where you are?
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: Now? Sure? Our firm was about fifty Cooper Epstein at
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: Hurwitz and we were kind of in the middle. The
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: firms that I thought were great were much bigger or
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: much smaller, and so I went looking for a merger
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: or partner for us, and I found a firm ment
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: at Phelps and Phillips that they were interested in us.
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: Not everybody wanted to go, so we closed down. I
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: went there with about fifteen lawyers. It was not for me.
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: I discovered it as soon as I got there. This
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: wasn't for me for a lot of personal reasons which
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: I won't go into. It's a good firm with very
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: good lawyers, but it just didn't fit. It didn't fit me,
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: all right. I didn't fit it one or the other.
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: And out of the blue, Out of the blue, I
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: get a call from Larry Hoffman, who was one of
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: the founders of the firm ris. The fir was Greenberg
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: Troway Hoffman. I called me and said, we just opened
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: in California, which they did. That year, and we're looking
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: for somebody to start to our entertainment practice. You want
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: to come. Since I had only moved one time and
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: the idea of moving it was a bore to me,
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: I said, I don't think so. So he talked to
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: me as a company taking a trip, which they wanted
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: to send me at first class to the New York
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: office or Miami office and bring a friend of yours
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: and come and take a look at us. So I did.
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: I was impressed. I was impressed with a firm. I
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: was impressed with what they were doing. I had the lawyer,
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: the quality of lawyers. I came back, and the idea
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: of moving again was somewhat a boring to me, so
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: I said no. I said, well, think about it. So
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: I did. And as my life at the men at
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: Phelps was not great as far as I've concerned, what
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: I felt over there, and I was feeling really bad,
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: I said, I don't know if I could stay here.
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: I finally called Larry back after about six months, and
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: I said, Larry, you're still interested. He says, yes, come over,
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: he says, and bring and get whoever you want. So
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: I came, and I started calling the people who had
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: worked with me and for me my previous life, and
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: they started coming one by one and including my including
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: my partner, I Rapstein, and a whole bunch of them
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: came and I've been with the firm ever since. It's
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: an incredible firm. The broad knowledge and experience and quality
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: of lawyer here is phenomenal. It's a big firm, but
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: doesn't function like a big firm as far as we're concerned,
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: and I treat our department as a boutique that sits
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: in a big firm. They have made the experience quite well,
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: quite excellent. You feel like they're giving you the reins
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: and saying you run with it. It's yours. And that's
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: how it's been.
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: So how many years at Manat and how many years
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: at Greenberg DrAk.
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: I was a man at about six to seven, I
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: can't remember exactly. And here I've been here about twenty
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: years a little over.
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: Okay. So when you had fifty with Cooper, Epstein and Horoitz,
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: fifty attorneys, and you said you either had to be
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: smaller or larger, what are the advantages of now being
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: with a larger firm?
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: The advantage of being larger firm than I found here
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: is the expertise that you can find. There's an x.
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: They have an expert on everything. I don't care what
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: it is. You can send out emails I need an
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: expert on horse maneur in Colorado, and you'll get fifty
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: year responses. I'm exaggerating slightly, obviously, but there's an expert
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: on everything here. The quality of lawyer is phenomenal. The
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: willingness to share and help is phenomenal. They give you
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: the reins and they say it's yours. You do what
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: you want to do. They're not telling you how to practice,
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: they're not limiting your abilities to practice. Be straight, but
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: follow the law, do what to do, it's right, be honest,
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: and they give you the tools. And that's all anybody
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: can ask.
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: And what's it like working for somebody else? Is supposed
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: to working for yourself.
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: I feel like I'm working for myself. I don't feel
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: like I'm working for somebody else. If you want to
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: know the truth.
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: Okay, so what year did you merge with Epstein and Herwitz?
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: When when did that happen?
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: Ha? Well, I didn't merge with it. I mean I
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: chuck Herwitz. I hired I told you he works for me,
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: and I made him that. I made him a partner.
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: We merged with he had about three lawyers. What year
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: would that be It would take me a while to
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: compute that. I can't remember. But let's say I've been
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: here twenty some odd years. I was in mentat about
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: six to seven years and see ten years there. Probably
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: we were together previously twenty twenty five years.
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: I would say, okay, so now you're practicing law. Music
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: is unfortunately just a hobby. And you say, you hire
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: Chuck Herwitz to do the stuff walks in. It's not entertainment.
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: How broad is your entertainment practice? How much is television
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: movies music?
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: Fifty percent is music and fifty percent would be television
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: and motion picture.
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: And has it continued like that?
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: Yes?
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: And for the uninitiated, what is the difference in those
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: two areas. What's the difference in terms of how do
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: you see it in terms of the music business in
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: the movie business.
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I can tell you. I could tell you that
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: straightforward way, which is, in order to be an entertainment
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: lawyer in these fields, you have to know the business
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: of what you're in. You have to know the business
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: of the motion picture business. The business of television, the
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: business of music. In other words, you have to know
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: in record business, how records are made, how they're distributed,
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: what the wholesale is, what retail is, where the money
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: is flowing from? What a licensing of the music rights?
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: What is it costs for all of that? Uh is
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: a What does a record company earn when they sell
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: a record or today when they're licensing streaming services? What
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: do they get? What are the deals? Same thing in
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: motion pictures and television you have to know what does
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: the director get. What are the fees for directors? What
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: are the fees for producers? What are the fees for writers?
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: What does it cost to get an actor? What are
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: the residuals? What are net profits? What are adjusted gross profits?
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: What are the deductions can what are the various definitions
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: what can be deducted from all You have to know
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: the business, not only the law that affects it, not
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: only copy. Remember, you have to know copyright because that's
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: the very foundation of our businesses. Copyright. Copyright is the
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: reason there is a motion picture business, or a music business,
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: or television business, because it gives you a copyright, which
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: gives you ownership, protection of intellectual property rights. So you
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: have to understand in you have to understand copyright and
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: copyright law. An example of copyright is the copyright. The
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: Copyright Act is probably, I don't know, one hundred pages,
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: two hundred pages Nimber on copyright, which is the major
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: authority on copyright. It is twelve volumes interpreting the copyright law. Okay,
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: twelve very thick volumes interpreting that that small little copyright law,
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: if you will. Then, as I say, you have to
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: understand the business of the motion pictures and television and music,
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: how the product is distributed, how it's sold, how you
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: earn your money, who are the recipients of the money.
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: So you are not just a lawyer, You're a You're
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: a business person because you have to understand the entire
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: business of what you are in. And each of them
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: are different. There's a different different music and television and
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: motion pictures because the product is different, the creation of
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: the product is different, the distribution of the product is different,
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: and the moneies that you received from them is different.
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: So did you just learn through experience or do you
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: read trade papers? How do you keep up?
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: You have experience, but you read everything, reading every day.
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: You read the trades, you read the latest publications, you
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: read the latest litigation lawsuits, you read the decisions. You
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: read as much as you can about the latest deal making.
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: You attend seminars, you review, you go to you go
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: to various conferences. There's no ent toy. There's no end
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: to learning in this business. There's no time in which
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: you say I know it. There's no time in which
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: you know it at all. There will always be.
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: Now, this is your profession for a long time. Yes,
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: do you like it? Do you enjoy it?
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: I love it, and I enjoy it. I love it.
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: It's why I'm still doing it.
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: Let me ask you this. Let's just assume you were
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: working solely and I came in and I said, oh,
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: I have a recording contract or I'm an actor in
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: a movie. Do you still draft the contracts or do
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: you just make the deal and then subsidiary attorneys would
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: get it on paper, so to speak.
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: Well, at this point I have great associates for me
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: that are doing drafting and things of that nature. We
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: have our forms that we accumulated over the years. They're constant,
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: they're always out of date the day you draw them.
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: They're out of date. So we're constantly reviewing it. Fortunately
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: I'm not doing a whole lot of drafting, but I
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: have great associates that are doing the drafting. But at
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: one point I did the drafting, I did the reviewing
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: and all that. When I first entered the business record,
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: contracts are three pages. They're now seventy eighty pages. Law
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: motion picture contracts used to be very simple, very very
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: straight ahead. Now there are hundreds of pages along When
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: you do it, when you do a deal, and sometimes
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: first I have some clients that do producing, directing, acting, producing, directing,
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: ake writing, Well, it's it's you now fill about several
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: volumes of what those contracts are.
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: Okay, you're practicing law. As I say, you create your
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: own forms. To a great degree, the attorney is seeing
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: possibilities down the road, and on both sides of the fence,
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: both the companies and the talent have not foreseen certain things.
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: So to what creed do you try to dot every I,
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: cross every T How do you stop? And if you
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: ever had regrets that you haven't included or four seen.
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: Something, well, you're always trying to anticipate, and of course
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: that's what the industry is now going through with AI, right.
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: I don't think that was much anticipated some time ago,
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: and people have been thinking about it in the last
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: couple of years a little bit. It's being addressed. You're
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: always learning, and you're always playing catch up, and you're
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: always going back and look at your contracts and see,
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: you think we have covered this if we go back
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: and take a look all the time. I can't say
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: that were anybody is or we are flawless in that regard,
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: but we certainly attempt to cover the bases and try
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: and anticipate what is coming. That's why we go to seminars,
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: That's why we talk to people, That's why we review
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: all of the latest articles on all of this thing
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: and see what's happening, and then delve into our contracts
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: and see whether we've covered the basis.
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: Now, in music, there are many attorneys who charge a percentage,
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: usually five percent. How do people go by hourly? How
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: do you do it?
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: I've done it both ways, and.
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: What are the advantages disadvantages to both?
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: Okay, the advantage and disadvantage to percentage is I've talked
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: to a number of clients, a number of attorneys on
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: this twenty percent of your clients pay for pay for
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: the other eighty percent. Okay, Usually when you take percentages,
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: if you're taking only percentages, it's twenty percent of the
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: clients who pay for the pay the bill. Hourly is
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: straight straight ahead. You're either getting paid or say goodbye.
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: They're either paid the hours. So some clients we have
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: on percentage. Some clients we have an hourly. There are
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: a number of particularly the boutique the smaller firms almost
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: exclusively do five percenters are five percenters, they do very well.
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: They do very well, but are they winning all the time. No,
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: they're winning, but twenty percent better pay the bills for
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: the eighty Because we are a full service firm, in
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: which boutiques are not. So we do litigation right. Boutiques
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: do not do litigation. That's hourly. There rarely is that percentage.
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: Rarely is that percentage. Mostly that is our corporate work.
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: We do corporate work. Boutiques don't do corporork's that's our
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: that's hourly type of work. Trademark is hourly type of work.
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: So it all depends on what it is. The advantage
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: of a big firmish you can do both. You can
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: do some clients on hourly, and some clients on percentage.
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: Okay, this is a business entertainment in general that is
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: shady when it comes to payment. So let's say you're
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: on a five percent how do you know that you're
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: actually getting five percent of the total.
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: Well, hopefully, if you're representing a client, you are representing
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: a client that you can trust. I recommend that very much.
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: I wrote. By the way, I wrote an article many
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: years ago for the Hollywood Reporter. It said. The article
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: was this, I can tell by meeting somebody a client,
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: let's say somebody who is a client of somebody, who
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: the lawyer is, because clients choose lawyers would like personalities.
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: By and large, Okay, I wrote that article. It was
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: a long time ago. And in other way, somebody who's dishonest,
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: do they want an honest lawyer who is going to
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: tell them that they're dishonest? They don't. They wanted somebody
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: to see what they see. If they're a paranoid personality,
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: they want to find a lawyer who sees the same
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: things that they say. And well, it's not absolutely true
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: at all. And the thing was a humorous article. By
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: and large, there's a lot of truth to that fact.
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: They both choose lawyers that are few things the way
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: they do thinks, and I think we all generally wanted
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: to represent somebody that we feel are good people and
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: pay attention to their to their profession and their honest people.
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: Okay, so you come into the business. Recording is going
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: on pretty much the beginnings, the beginning of the century, movies,
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: television that time, there's some major changes. Let's just focus
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: on the music business for a change. The Beatles come along,
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: and they sell more product than anybody previously. Rock comes along,
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: Rock starts in the early fifties, sort of fades around
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: the decade of the City seem it is a huge resurgence.
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: How does this ultimately affect the contracts in the practice
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: of law.
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: Well, Uh, a selling of a record is the selling
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: of a record. I don't care whether it's a Beatles
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: record or an Elvis Presley record or Frank Sorata record.
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: The selling of a record is still the same the business,
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: the business aspect is still the same. Uh. The some
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: of the players are different. Some of the players are different.
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: Some of the people who handle U tip top are
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: different than the people who are who are handling classical music.
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: It's an example. Okay, there are different players with different
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: philosophies and different and different business models. So again you
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: have to understand the business that you're in, which bit
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: it is. So the music business has many, many fascets.
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: It has a there's a classical music business, and I
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: represent several major classical artists. There's a classical music business.
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: There's a pop music business. There's a jazz musical business. Uh,
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: there's a really been blues business. They're different, the numbers
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: are different, the deals are different, Uh, the payments are different.
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: So you have to So you have to learn all
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: these different fields. Simply because it's music doesn't mean there's
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: one standard fits all. It doesn't, and one contract doesn't
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: fit all. It doesn't. The contracts are different, the style
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: of making business is different. The people on the other
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: side are different. The classical music people are different people
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: than the pop music people. They don't think alike. They
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: think differently, They think in different numbers and in different
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: ways of doing business. So the music business much like
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: the motion picture but the telephon, they're it's segregated in
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: it in and of itself. So you could talk to
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: the three executives and the music business from different genres.
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: They're thinking differently and their deals are different.
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: Okay, So, but the Rocket Hero starts to flourish in
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: the mid sixties and ultimately contracts change. Okay, there's so
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: many issues. A. Did the record company want the publishing, B,
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: cross collateralization, C free goods, D the raw royalty percentage,
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: accounting windows. Was that evolving generally and you evolved with it?
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: Or did you have certain acts you made a stand
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: such that you were moving the ball for artistry further
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: down the playing field.
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: Well, the deals became when the when the record companies
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: went to what they called the three sixty deal, that's
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: probably what you're talking about, in which they not only
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: had wanted the record, they wanted the publishing, they wanted
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: the touring, they wanted their acting moneies, they wanted everything
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: else like that. A number of us was out alone,
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: A number of us set up and said hold it,
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: hold it, holdly. This is this is an overreach. Okay,
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: this is a major overreach. There was a lot of
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: fights about that. Uh at the beginning, we thought there
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: was a grab by the companies at that particular time.
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: Uh.
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: They they viewed it as they were creating an actor
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: or had an opportunity to earn all this money, et cetera.
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: And so they see there were they were a partner
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: in that or participant in that. They wanted to share
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: that we are the talent side represented. The talent said, well,
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: wait a minute, you didn't. There's nothing about this. What
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: you've done is contributed that. Yes, your business is the
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: record business. Your business is not touring, Your business is
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: not movies, your business is not publishing. It's not fair.
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: That battle goes on, that goes onto this, that goes
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: on to this day as to how far you could go.
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: Do remember that in the motion picture industry they used
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: to have they used to have contracts seven year contracts
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: are more with actors, and they would hire them and
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: they would become they would become the employees, if you will,
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: literally of the studio. And there became a revolution amongst
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: the actor talent that no, that wasn't that wasn't very good,
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: and they used what was called then the seven year
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: statue to get out of these contracts. And the studios
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: that eventually said, well, why are we keeping all these
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: people on salary? And that was so it had a
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: dual response, which was some people said gee, i'd like this,
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: I like the weekly salary, and others say no, I'm
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: free now to work for any studio I want. Not simple,
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: but actors. Actors, when they finally got rid of the
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: seven year contracts, they started making moneies which they're getting
• 47:04
  Speaker 2: up to the twenty million plus salaries and making deals
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: because they weren't tied.
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: Okay, let's stay with the movie business. Be in ultimately
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: visual entertainment. So in the late sixties and into the seventies,
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: the game flips where the talent gains an amazing amount
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: of control. So tell us what it was like then
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: and what it's really like today.
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: Well, when the talent found they got in control, would
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: you have the Tom Cruises, et cetera. Who will become
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: necessary to open a film? Right, it all became. It
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: all became about opening a film. Previous to that period
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: of time, they would put out a film. It would stay,
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: it would stay on the boards or stay at as
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: theaters for a long time. Now you got to make
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: your money over the first few weekends to see if
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: it's really sustained the film. When they found that it
• 48:04
  Speaker 2: was certain actors like a Tom Cruise as an example,
• 48:12
  Speaker 2: they that they could open a film and all of
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: a sudden make millions on a weekend, multi millions on
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: a weekend. The actors then all of a sudden gained power.
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: They said, you want me for your film, this is
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: what they're going to have to pay. And the salaries
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: rose the ten million a picture to fifteen million a picture,
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: the twenty million of picture and had more because the
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: film's companies finally decided they really needed this actor to
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: open the film. And so whether it was Julia Roberts
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: or whoever, these were the people that the studio started
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: to look for and realized that the and the actors
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: started to realize that they need us. And so the
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: attorneys who representative took advantage on their behalf to maximize
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: the income that they were receiving, including the back end payments,
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: which is now under challenge. The back end payments is
• 49:16
  Speaker 2: a big subject right now and probably is the big
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: subject of the strikes right now, the back end payments,
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: because when you get it to certain certain production companies
• 49:28
  Speaker 2: today who won't pay a back end. Back end, of course,
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: is the money you get for future distribution, future exploitation
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: of the film, and so if you have a percentage
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: of the film you're going to get paid on that.
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: Some people are making more money from the back what
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: they call the back end, than they are from their
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: front up front fees. And that's the current battle that
• 49:53
  Speaker 2: goes out to this day.
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: Okay, if you read the trades the business public, they
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: say that talent prices have gone down in the theatrical
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: business because certain name talent is not opened films, and
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: some of these films, especially the Marvel movies, et cetera,
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: it's less important who the talent is. Have you experienced this.
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: I haven't personally experienced it, but I understand it. Some
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: of those are Yeah, some of the films of Marble films,
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: I understand. Whether they say people going to go see
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: whether no matter who's in there. I don't know if
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: they're completely if that's completely true or not. I haven't
• 50:38
  Speaker 2: been able to I haven't examined any figures to that
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: aspect of it. But I don't underestimate the power of
• 50:47
  Speaker 2: the draw of certain talent in this business.
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: Okay, so let you know where the talent is on
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: strike right now. By time this year is who knows.
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: Theoretically a deal could be made, but let's just talk theore.
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: In the old days, the back end was such that
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: you went to varying platforms. Maybe you were on network,
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: then you went into syndication, then you went into physical
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: with DVDs, vhs. Whereas with Netflix, let's say they might
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: buy out the product and only have it on their platform,
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: so you could have a contract with externalities if they
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: distributed elsewhere. But if the product is paid for by
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: Netflix and sits on Netflix, how would we construct the
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: back end?
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: Netflix, to my knowledge, does not pay it back end.
• 51:38
  Speaker 1: Right, But as a representative of talent and the talent
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: is looking for more money, do you see any way
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: to do that?
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: No? Back Netflix is a great company, but they have
• 51:51
  Speaker 2: their own business model, and their business model does not
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: call for a back end at all. And they have
• 51:58
  Speaker 2: an unusual book they call it back in in which
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: they pay you negotiate a deal with them for a number,
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: and they take twenty percent of that number, and hey,
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: that's your back end, and we'll pay that out within
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: two for over the two years after the film has
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: been distributed. That's been my experience with them.
• 52:21
  Speaker 1: And is that twenty performance based No? Okay, let's talk
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: about theatrical in general. You're a student of the game.
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: What is the future of theatrical We obviously had the pandemic.
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: Business is not completely recovered. The stocks of the theaters
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: have gone up and down. The major studios are making
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: less product. By the same token, there's more indepredent product
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: than ever, although a lot of it does not get
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: theatrical distribution. What's going to happen here in the future.
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: Well, I can't predict the future. It's right now very uncertain. Uh.
• 53:07
  Speaker 2: The I like to go to I like to go
• 53:10
  Speaker 2: to the movies. Will the public continue to like to
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: go into the movies? I don't know. We had a
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: great I think you know, we had a great theater
• 53:18
  Speaker 2: complex in Hollywood, the arc Line Theaters in Hollywood, and
• 53:23
  Speaker 2: that a lot of us used to like to go to.
• 53:25
  Speaker 2: Very much gone. I don't know if it's ever going
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: to come back, but it's gone. The enthusiasm of going
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: to theaters seems to be less. With the exception of
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: Barbie Oppenheimer. So those are so those are two I've
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: only I've seen Oppenheimer. I've not seen Barbie yet, but
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: some of the some of the the people that work
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: here have seen Barbie multiple times. They adore the film,
• 53:55
  Speaker 2: and with good reason. I've heard nothing but great things
• 53:58
  Speaker 2: at every in every corner, and Oppenheimer was an incredible film.
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: But I don't know how many Oppenheimer's or Barbies there's
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: going to be. It's going to draw people to the theaters,
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: So I don't know. It's a hard one. I like
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: to go to the theaters. A lot of people have
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: got used to sitting at home and watching the thing
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: at home on their couch. What they'll like in the future,
• 54:19
  Speaker 2: I don't know. I think we're in between now and
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: I don't know where it's going to come out.
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: Okay, Now, the agencies, let's leave music aside, where the
• 54:30
  Speaker 1: agent really just books live dates. But the agents in
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: the visual entertainment field, needless to say, Mike Ovitz comes
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: in and has a lot of control packaging, etc. But
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: in terms of deals, not everybody has an agent. How
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: do you interact with the agencies?
• 54:54
  Speaker 2: Oh, well, A good portion of my clients are represented
• 54:58
  Speaker 2: by agencies, and the agencies have been very good. They're
• 55:04
  Speaker 2: out there. We don't go out there looking for jobs
• 55:06
  Speaker 2: for these people. Okay, we don't know, at least I
• 55:10
  Speaker 2: could speak for myself. I don't know what films are
• 55:14
  Speaker 2: on the boards that they're looking for talent, and at
• 55:17
  Speaker 2: which companies are looking for talent. That's that's what the
• 55:20
  Speaker 2: good agents know. They know what Paramount has got on
• 55:24
  Speaker 2: the boards. They know what Disney's got on the boards,
• 55:26
  Speaker 2: they know what Universal, they know what's coming up, and
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: they know where to call there and put up their
• 55:32
  Speaker 2: clients for the opportunities at those places. We don't know that.
• 55:36
  Speaker 2: The agents know that the ages are very good at that,
• 55:40
  Speaker 2: and so we work with the agents is far with
• 55:42
  Speaker 2: our clients because they know what's coming up and all that,
• 55:47
  Speaker 2: and they've made multiple deals, so their input all the time.
• 55:51
  Speaker 2: We may have our ideas what the deal is worth,
• 55:54
  Speaker 2: the agents also have their ideas and it's valuable input.
• 55:58
  Speaker 2: I have nothing but respect for the good agencies because
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: they're on the front lines where we are not.
• 56:05
  Speaker 1: Okay, let's flip it over to the music business. For
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: a long time there, the last decades of the twentieth century,
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: it was all about the major labels and major label
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: recording contracts. A to what degree is out of percentage
• 56:21
  Speaker 1: of your business today.
• 56:25
  Speaker 2: That would be less than fifty percent, Maybe it's around
• 56:27
  Speaker 2: fifty percent, maybe a little less.
• 56:30
  Speaker 1: And we talked about the three sixty. How have those
• 56:33
  Speaker 1: contracts change? I mean there are a lot of ways.
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: I mean, in the days of physical products, certainly the CD,
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: you have these huge advances and all sorts of other things.
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: So what's a recording contract like today?
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: It's pretty much pretty much the same question is are
• 56:52
  Speaker 2: they willing to put out as a company willing to
• 56:54
  Speaker 2: put out as much money today as they were? And
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: that'll vary, that'll vary with the talent. There's I don't
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: I don't know of a measure on that one. If somebody,
• 57:06
  Speaker 2: if there's three record companies or four record companies want
• 57:08
  Speaker 2: you're artists, it is one one type of thing. If
• 57:10
  Speaker 2: there's one record company that wants are artist, it's a
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: different deal. I don't think that has changed that much.
• 57:16
  Speaker 1: Okay, So let's assume I'm making a deal with a
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: major label. What kind of streaming rate can I get?
• 57:25
  Speaker 2: Streaming rate? Okay? That's a that's a that's a that's
• 57:29
  Speaker 2: a daily question around here. The maximum anybody is paid,
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: and there some of them are paying it, it's at
• 57:36
  Speaker 2: fifty percent of what proceeeds Okay, domestically for forty foreign Okay,
• 57:44
  Speaker 2: at source as source. Not everybody's going to get that.
• 57:48
  Speaker 2: That's that's a relatively few we'll get that, but it's
• 57:51
  Speaker 2: it's possible to get a number of the companies. A
• 57:56
  Speaker 2: number of the companies are paying at thirty five and
• 58:00
  Speaker 2: forty and those forty forty domestic thirty five for some
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: are paying less than that. The big problem we all have.
• 58:10
  Speaker 2: The big problem is not the new deals, but the
• 58:13
  Speaker 2: existing deals that were that were sitting there, in which
• 58:17
  Speaker 2: the record companies are paying streaming rate and the same
• 58:21
  Speaker 2: as they were paying for the CD rate. So if
• 58:25
  Speaker 2: the CD rate was twenty percent or twenty five percent,
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: that's what they're paying. So we're fighting with the labels
• 58:32
  Speaker 2: to say, hey, wait a minute, it's unfair this time
• 58:35
  Speaker 2: and this business and what you're making on it. You
• 58:38
  Speaker 2: got to rethink it. You got to come to the
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: table and renegotiate this thing. Every company has their own
• 58:43
  Speaker 2: philosophy on it. But that's the type of discussion that
• 58:47
  Speaker 2: should be had. Okay, even though somebody is there is
• 58:50
  Speaker 2: getting a streaming rate of twenty or twenty five percent,
• 58:53
  Speaker 2: they should be having a conversation with the label, Hey
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: that's not fair, because it isn't because they don't have
• 58:59
  Speaker 2: many factory, they don't have storage, shipping, they don't have storage,
• 59:04
  Speaker 2: they don't have any of the things that they used
• 59:07
  Speaker 2: to have with with a CD. They it. Basically, My
• 59:12
  Speaker 2: position is it's a license. It's all it is. They
• 59:15
  Speaker 2: exercise the license. Yes, they do some promotion, and no
• 59:18
  Speaker 2: question they do promotion. But the rate, in my personal
• 59:23
  Speaker 2: opinion is anything lower than forty or fifty percent is wrong.
• 59:29
  Speaker 2: And we make calls and everybody else is doing the
• 59:33
  Speaker 2: same thing, main calls. Hey, it's time to rethink this
• 59:36
  Speaker 2: with the with the labels. But I think for any
• 59:41
  Speaker 2: decent act, forty to fifty percent domesticated and throughound thirty
• 59:46
  Speaker 2: to thirty five or forty percent four and is what
• 59:50
  Speaker 2: is the goal? Everybody's not going to get it?
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: So are these there are no deductions on the fifty Okay,
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 1: So let's say I have an historic contract and they're
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: paying me a low rate. Many people don't have any leverage.
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: So how do you get these labels to cough up more.
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 2: Go out and buy an AK forty seven?
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 1: No?
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 2: You you try your best. I you know, you try
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 2: your best. If they really love the artists and they're
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 2: really interested in the artists. They want to keep a
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 2: happy artist, and most labels want to keep a happy artist.
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 2: You go in on that basis you don't have any leverage,
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 2: but you're going to say, look, it's not fair. Well,
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 2: they're not fair. Work always work. It won't always work,
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 2: but it will work. Sometimes it will work. Sometimes. I've
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 2: seen one label very positively when you have legendary, legendary
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 2: artists on the label come to the table and say, yeah,
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 2: we gotta make it right.
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 1: Okay. There have been all these issues in the music
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 1: business of contracts that have not foreseen the future. To
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 1: what degree do you have artists who have contracts there
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 1: are now revenue streams that were not foreseen in the contract,
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 1: which raise questions in bargaining power. How often does that happen?
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 2: It happens. I mean, look at all the contracts that
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 2: were done before there were streaming, lots of them. And
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 2: I'm doing battle right now. These are contracts I inherited
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 2: with a couple labels and say, we got up these
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 2: streaming rays. It's not fair to be paying twenty percent
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 2: royalty for streaming. It's just not right. And while right
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 2: now I'm in these conversations, I haven't received the know
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 2: what I'm receiving is we're reviewing it. I keep hearing
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 2: we're reviewing it. Well, I think the review time is over.
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 2: Let's get to something. But it's worth the conversation, and
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 2: everybody should have that conversation.
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 1: Okay, there are issues. We have a lot of acts
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 1: that have they had to re re record it, like Aerosmith, whatever,
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 1: ye haven't you? You get to write a reversion after
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 1: twenty five years on the original albums because they didn't
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 1: foresee any economic value after twenty five years. So when
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 1: you make a deal today, okay, is there any reversion
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 1: of the copyright? Can that be negotiated? What are the
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 1: terms there?
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 2: Negotiating the reversion is very tough. You have to have
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 2: a superstar to do that, to get an ownership. But
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 2: absent that, under the Copyright Act, there's a thirty five
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 2: year termination for any recordings that are done after nineteen
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 2: seventy eight. Okay, released after nineteen seventy eight under the
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 2: Copyright Act, so you can get it back. Now, here's
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 2: what's going on with that. Copyright Act of nineteen seventy
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 2: nineteen seventy eight provides for this or in nineteen seventy six,
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 2: commencing in nineteen seventy eight. The Copyright Act prize for
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 2: a thirty five termination right under the old Act, the
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 2: previous Act, it was a fifty six year termination. Fifty
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 2: six year termination. So you said, now you're coming up,
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 2: you got two You got two years before the thirty
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 2: five years to send your notice. You got to give
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 2: a two year notice and it's a five year period
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 2: of which you have to send it. But the termination
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 2: would be between thirty five to forty years. So you
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 2: send your notice. The first thing happens is the record
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 2: companies say, no, you're not in time too, because it's
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 2: a work for hire, work for hire, work for higher
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 2: provision in the Copyright Act says that they own it
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 2: and they own it in perpetuity, but nothing. There's no
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 2: termination right for work for hire. However, here's the situation.
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 2: It's long and a complicated reason. Under the Copyright Act,
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 2: there are nine categories that work for hire, nine categories.
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 2: Sound recordings are not one of the nine categories. Audio
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 2: visual works are one of the nine categories. As an example,
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 2: the collective works are a category but doesn't say sound recordings.
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 2: In the year to nineteen ninety nine, the RIAA Record
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 2: Industry Association of America got Congress to add a tenth
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 2: category sound recordings to the list of to the list
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 2: of nine categories which made sound recordings that work for hire,
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 2: which means you could terminate number of us. It was
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 2: Cheryl Crow, Don Henley Irving Azoff and I got involved
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 2: myself on behalf of Cheryl, and we protested the Congress
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 2: that they shouldn't have passed this law. Okay, it was
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 2: included in a one thousand page stock television amendment. Okay,
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 2: that's where it was included. I contacted Howard Berman and
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 2: then Howard Kobel. They were the Howard Cobel was the
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 2: chairman of the Appropriate Committee and Howard Berman was the
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 2: ranking member. They decided to hold hearings on this thing.
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 2: I got Cheryl Crow to go back and testify. I
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 2: went and testified, and this is the year two thousand.
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 2: The year two thousand, we had dueling professors. Helen Rosen
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 2: was the head of the RAA at that time. She testified.
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 2: We had a professor. They had a professor carry grat
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 2: carry grad. Kerry Sherman was the general consul for the
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 2: ra He testified on the other side and it became
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 2: very clear to Coward Coble and Howard Berman that they
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 2: made a mistake. They shouldn't have They shouldn't have passed
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 2: this without a hearing, with no hearing when they passed that.
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 2: So they called Kerry Sherman to myself into a room
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 2: and they said, they said, come up with language to
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 2: remove this language. And we came up with language. It
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 2: took her quite a while. The two of us came
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 2: up with the language. They finally passed it, and so
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 2: sound recordings was removed as a tenth category. Notwithstanding that fact,
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 2: the the record companies to this day claim when you
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 2: send your termination notice that it's worked for hire and
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 2: therefore there's no right to terminate. There's litigation pending on
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 2: this which has not been There is no resulve, and
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 2: the record companies refuse to acknowledge that there's a right
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 2: of termination. You're saying the is a collective work and
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 2: therefore it falls within the falls within the ten nine categories.
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 2: As I say, there's no result in litigation. So what
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 2: happens on when you send your termination notice? They say
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 2: you have no right to terminate, but let's talk, and
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 2: then they generally will negotiate and the advance and negotiate
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 2: higher royalties and things of that nature. And there's no
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 2: consistent way it's done, and they're all Every record company
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 2: is different, Every record company attrius it differently. That's the
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 2: state of the art. There's no answer to that question
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 2: except the record companies maintained it is a work for
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 2: hire and there's no right to termine it.
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 1: Okay, do you anticipate one of these cases going to trial.
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 2: There's two pending out there.
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, let's go back to the recording contract. Used
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 1: to be that lawyers would shop deals. Is that still
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 1: a factor at all? Or how many people come in
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 1: and say the label's interest in me, I need a lawyer.
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 2: Well, if the label is interested, they're not shopping. No,
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 2: I won't. I won't shop I don't know how many
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 2: attorneys are doing it shopping at this point. I won't
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 2: do it. The reason why we don't, I'll tell you why.
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 2: The reason we don't do it myself and everybody else
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 2: probably similar, which is the one thing we have is access.
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 2: I can call over and get somebody on the phone.
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 2: But if I'm calling up to find out if they
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 2: if they're interested in my latest deal. They're not going
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 2: to be answering the phone. We need, we need access
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 2: and shopping is the worst thing you can do because
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 2: now they don't want to take their call because they
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 2: don't they don't like to say a lot of people
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 2: they don't like to say no. They don't like to
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 2: tell you no. So I stay away. I'm sure a
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 2: lot of people are that stay away from shopping. It's bad.
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 2: I don't want to do it. But if the label
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 2: says I'm interested, I said, then I'll call them and say, okay,
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 2: I'll talk to you now now.
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 1: But there are fewer major labels who are putting out
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 1: less product. Yeah, so basically everybody walks through the door
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 1: has a deal or do you have other acts who
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 1: say I'm doing incredible on the road. I don't want
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 1: to make a major label deal, but I need representation.
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 2: Well I can give representation. Well, I'm not going to shop,
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 2: but maybe I can get them to a manager or
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 2: to somebody who will do that. A good manager. There
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 2: are good there are good managers who will do will
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 2: do that with with talent, they will do that, and
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 2: that's fine. I don't want to have my name attached
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 2: to it. I'm sure there's a lot of otheritorians feel
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 2: the same way. Don't want to shop.
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 1: How about the other thing in California where we've had
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 1: this issue for sixty years now, where if someone who's
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 1: not an attorney or licensed talent agent gets work, the
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 1: contract can be voided and no money is owed. What's
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 1: the status of that and what's your experience.
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 2: That hasn't That hasn't changed. Uh, that hasn't changed at all.
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 2: An agent has licensed to to solicit work, okay, and
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 2: if you don't, if you don't have that, your you're
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 2: at risk. There have been cases on that subject. I
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 2: haven't had that discussion for quite some time, but there
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 2: was who's named Matthew kates H exactly right? Oh god,
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 2: the name came out on where that name came out.
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 2: But yeah, that's it. Uh, there has I haven't had much.
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 2: I haven't seen much of that lately because I guess
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 2: talent or I actually have anybody who will go try
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 2: and shop shop for them, and they will. I feel
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 2: sorry for talent because it's hard for them to get
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 2: doors open to them, and it's hard to get into
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 2: the agencies because the agencies are busy, they they're responsible
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 2: for the any talent that they have, and so some
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 2: of them are. It's hard to get into the agency,
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 2: hard to get an agent, and they're not easy, so
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 2: the attorneys are not doing it. It's difficult to get
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 2: an agent. So when you find someone who's willing to
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 2: put their put themselves out there, nobody's trying to nobody's
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 2: right now trying to kill those people who are trying
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 2: to say no, don't do that, because the talent has
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 2: nowhere else to go. The only thing the talent can
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 2: do is keep performing showcases right and hopefully somebody shows
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 2: up that that might be interested in them. But it's
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 2: not easy. But so what we can do is sometimes
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 2: refer them to a manager, who is if we think
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 2: something is really good, we'll refer to a manager, and
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 2: the managers go ahead and notwithstanding the law, because nobody's
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 2: really interested and going after managers for trying to shop.
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 2: There's nobody interested in that because there's nowhere else the
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 2: talent has to look.
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 1: Okay, Now, there are certain managers who have handshake agreements,
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 1: others have contracts. What do you advise the talent and
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 1: what has been your experience in terms of what whether
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 1: people want a contract or not?
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 2: Well, what type of person wants to contract?
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 1: Let's say you're representing talent. Talent now has a manager, right,
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 1: some managers want paper, other managers don't. Do you advise
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 1: the act one way or another? And if there is paper,
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 1: what are the key points you're negotiating?
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 2: Well, I think there probably should be a paper the
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 2: keyboard are the royalties? Are the bed's a commission? I
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 2: should say, what's the commission? How long is the contract?
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 2: The big things are, yeah, what's the commission? And how long?
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 2: And how long is the contract? And is there a
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 2: sunset clause? Right?
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 1: Okay, So just going back to the record companies. You know,
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 1: sixty years ago you had two albums a year. The
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 1: total might be of the contract seven years might be
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 1: fourteen albums. What is what are the deliverables today? And
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 1: what are the terms today?
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 2: Well, lucky if you get one album a year now,
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 2: and usually the contracts are the contracts are usually a
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 2: lens of about how many albums? There's the four albums
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 2: are the five albums and six albums and the seven albums?
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 2: There were contracts years ago. We all remember contracts of
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 2: twenty albums and twenty two albums and twenty four albums
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 2: and things like that. Today it's usually somewhere between five
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 2: to five to six to seven albums, sometimes four, a
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 2: lot less than what it a lot less to what
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 2: it used to be. That's probably more typical somewhere there
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 2: usually five somewhere between five to seven albums, which is
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 2: still a lot on behalf of talent. I'd like to
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 2: see less. I'd like to see the more than four
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 2: quite frankly.
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 1: Okay. Then we have the seven year clause, and the
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 1: issue is whether it's it's been seven years the label
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 1: argue haven't delivered all the product. But we did have
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 1: one act of then sevenfold who left Warner and went
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 1: to Capital. What are your thoughts on that now?
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 2: Okay, I've got definite thoughts on that. Okay. California, we
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 2: have a seven year statue. Seven years statute applies to
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 2: everybody in the state of California. Seven years. And there
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 2: was a famous case on there is oliviited to Havel
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 2: then get Warner Brothers. And although she was put on
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 2: suspension because she didn't perform in certain things, the court
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 2: said in California, seven years mean seven years. Okay, seven
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 2: years mean seven years. Seven years. She's out, whether she
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 2: performed or not. Now here's another battle we had with
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 2: the recording artist coalition, which I helped form. We had
• 1:15:28
  Speaker 2: the battle of the one in the Congress I told
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 2: you about, and then this was the second battle. So
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 2: Ora comes into California and says, uha, seven years should
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 2: not apply to the record industry, and if they don't,
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 2: it should be. They first came in and said it
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 2: should be ten years for record people. Ten years eventually
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 2: what And I went up there on behalf of a
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 2: number of artists to oppose that legend. Uh. The uh
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 2: it passed and it passed anyway. Uh. And their argument was, well,
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 2: the artist is not delivering all the stuff we should
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 2: we should they should not be allowed out of their contract. Uh.
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 2: But seven years applies to everybody else in California. Why
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 2: shouldn't have applied the recording artists that placed the actors
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 2: applies to everybody else. Their arguments said, well, they committed
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 2: to the seven years that should be it should be. Uh.
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 2: And we we we made an investment in the artists,
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 2: so as they start in the film studio and make
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 2: an investment that their there are actors. And they won
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 2: the day, which basically said, if you don't deliver all
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 2: the products, even if it's on option, even if the
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 2: option was not exercised, Uh, you have to you have
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 2: to deliver the album and if you have and if
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 2: you haven't done that, you're liable for damages. You're liable
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 2: for damages were undelivered damages for what? What are the damages?
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 2: So what album sold ten million albums? Next album could
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 2: sell nothing? We don't know what are the damages. Are
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 2: the damages the basis of what you would have made
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 2: on ten million albums? Uncertain? There's no answer. There's no
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 2: answer to that at all. But they got they got
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 2: the legislature in California to agree that artists could be
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 2: sued for damage for damages for undelivered product even though
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 2: they weren't optioned in the state of California. And that's
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 2: the state of the law. Now. It's preposterous. In my
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 2: personal opinion, it should never have happened. As I say,
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 2: I opposed it on behalf of the artists. I went
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 2: up there to testifying along with Don Henley and others.
• 1:17:49
  Speaker 2: Don Henley was not my client, but we were part
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 2: of the same artist coalition. Recording Artists Coalition and we
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 2: opposed the legislation. Unfortunately, we didn't win that, or we
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 2: lost that, however you want to describe it. It's not right,
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 2: but that is the state of the law in the
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 2: state of California. So even if they haven't delivered all
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 2: the products in the seven year period, they can't get out.
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 2: They can't get out.
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 1: Okay. Let's shift to publishing for a second. So it
• 1:18:24
  Speaker 1: has been your experience with termination rights in publishing.
• 1:18:29
  Speaker 2: Been more positive, much more positive. So far. We've had
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 2: no issue with getting people out of the contract. Yeah,
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 2: I stopped out of the country. I'm sorry. We have
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 2: no problem not terminating and not getting the rights back. Correct.
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 1: Okay. So let's say you have what they call a
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 1: heritage artist, someone whose heyday of recordings is in the past,
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 1: and they walk in and they say, okay, I have
• 1:19:01
  Speaker 1: the right of termination. A lot of them will immediately
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 1: make a deal with the person who had it before.
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 1: What would you advise someone who now has an asset
• 1:19:11
  Speaker 1: which they've regained, Well, it all.
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 2: Depends on their relationship. If you're with a good publisher,
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 2: you're with a good publisher, you probably want to stay
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 2: with a good publisher. So you make it. You make
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 2: a new deal, make yourself a better deal, maybe get
• 1:19:30
  Speaker 2: some advances, better royalties, what have you. If you've got
• 1:19:34
  Speaker 2: a good publisher, why not stay with them? Don't You
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 2: don't give them the ownership necessarily, you will make a
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 2: deal for what we call an administration deal, and you
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 2: get more favorable rates instead. Instead of the publisher getting
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 2: fifty percent or twenty five percent, maybe you get them
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 2: down to ten percent, maybe even five percent. But if
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 2: you've got a good publisher, a good publisher, are you
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 2: really want a good publisher, and good publishers are very effective,
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 2: why not make a deal with them. Unless you're very
• 1:20:07
  Speaker 2: unhappy with that particular publisher, and then okay, take your
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 2: stuff back and run somewhere else. But you're still going
• 1:20:14
  Speaker 2: to have to make a deal with somebody. You can't
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 2: do it yourself. You can't do it by advise it.
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 2: I guess doing it yourself. There's too much to administrate,
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 2: there's too many licenses to do, there's too much knowledge
• 1:20:26
  Speaker 2: you need about what the latest deals are, et cetera.
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 2: So do your termination right and make a deal. If
• 1:20:34
  Speaker 2: you like the publisher, make a deal with the publisher
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 2: the same one.
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 1: Let's talk about the beginning of a contract. Sure, you
• 1:20:41
  Speaker 1: make a deal with a major label doesn't include publishing rights,
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 1: and different publishers will come and say I'll buy the
• 1:20:49
  Speaker 1: publishing or a license it. They're different deals. Do you
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 1: advise taking the money? What do you advise an act
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 1: at the beginning of their career relative to publishing.
• 1:21:01
  Speaker 2: My general advice, without anything else is, never give up
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 2: ownership of your publisher. Never give up ownership. Make an
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 2: administration deal for them to administrate for a limited period
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 2: of time, and then it gives you. If they do
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 2: a good job, you'll do another one with them. If
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 2: they're not doing any job, you'll go with somebody else.
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 2: But never ever, ever give up ownership of your copyrights.
• 1:21:28
  Speaker 1: Which brings the next question. We are now an era
• 1:21:32
  Speaker 1: where people are selling their copyrights out right Hypnosis, Primary Wave.
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 1: There are a number of these companies round hill. What's
• 1:21:41
  Speaker 1: your advice to clients on that.
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 2: That's a person, it's a personal thing. If they the
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 2: mondies are very big. Some of these copyrights have gone
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 2: for as much as the thirty times multiple s are
• 1:21:54
  Speaker 2: twenty five times multiple summer, twenty sixth summer, or twenty
• 1:21:58
  Speaker 2: or less This is a personal question. It's not that
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 2: we could have advice on them, because it's a person.
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 2: It has to do with their personal finances and their
• 1:22:09
  Speaker 2: personal future. If they if they feel that they don't
• 1:22:14
  Speaker 2: mind losing control of their copyrights and they want to
• 1:22:18
  Speaker 2: pocket a lot of money, then you do the deal.
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 2: But if you want to control of your copyrights, really
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 2: control your cover, then you don't sell because once you sell,
• 1:22:28
  Speaker 2: although you can retain limited controls, limited but limited approval rights,
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 2: I should not control limited approval rights. Again, you got
• 1:22:38
  Speaker 2: down to I've heard a songwriters say, these are my babies,
• 1:22:42
  Speaker 2: these are benter creation. Well, do you want to sell
• 1:22:44
  Speaker 2: your baby? Do you want to sell your creation? I
• 1:22:49
  Speaker 2: never advised them to sell. Unless the money is so
• 1:22:52
  Speaker 2: big that they say, wow, I can make a score
• 1:22:54
  Speaker 2: now and I don't have to worry for the rest
• 1:22:57
  Speaker 2: of my life. That's a different choice.
• 1:23:07
  Speaker 1: Okay, what we have seen in the digital era is
• 1:23:10
  Speaker 1: they said the sky was falling, you know, twenty years ago,
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 1: and now there are endless new avenues of remuteration. And
• 1:23:22
  Speaker 1: everybody I know has sold before this previous run up
• 1:23:25
  Speaker 1: it has always regretted it. So thirty X, if you're
• 1:23:29
  Speaker 1: seventy looks like a really good number. Not that many
• 1:23:32
  Speaker 1: people live to one hundred. But assuming I didn't need
• 1:23:36
  Speaker 1: the cash, what would you tell me.
• 1:23:41
  Speaker 2: Well, what's the reason for selling it? I don't see
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 2: the reason why killing it if somebody can make a
• 1:23:49
  Speaker 2: big score, and some of you see if people have
• 1:23:51
  Speaker 2: made a big score. But if you don't need the cash,
• 1:23:56
  Speaker 2: and you don't have something to do with that cash
• 1:23:59
  Speaker 2: right now, you have there's certain investments you'd like to do.
• 1:24:02
  Speaker 2: You'd like to buy this building or or buy a
• 1:24:08
  Speaker 2: yacht or whatever you have in mind, there could be
• 1:24:11
  Speaker 2: a reason to do it. But absent that, unless you
• 1:24:16
  Speaker 2: have a specific reason what you want to do with
• 1:24:18
  Speaker 2: the money, or you're fearful about the future and you
• 1:24:21
  Speaker 2: want to put this money away, those are reasons to
• 1:24:23
  Speaker 2: not to sell. But when you yours, when you sell,
• 1:24:26
  Speaker 2: you giving up a certain amount of control. It's your
• 1:24:29
  Speaker 2: I've heard songwriter say these are my babies. Well, do
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 2: you want to sell your baby? Uh? You want to
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 2: sell your You want to sell the control of this copyright?
• 1:24:38
  Speaker 2: What can be done with it? What can how it
• 1:24:41
  Speaker 2: can be used? Who who can license it or where
• 1:24:45
  Speaker 2: where it can be used? Tough questions.
• 1:24:49
  Speaker 1: And in terms of overall revenues from recordings, do you
• 1:24:54
  Speaker 1: see what do you see coming down the pike?
• 1:24:58
  Speaker 2: Revenues revenues are are very good right now and increasing
• 1:25:04
  Speaker 2: because of because of streaming. Uh. The streaming has uh
• 1:25:11
  Speaker 2: recovery has recovered the or it has caused the music
• 1:25:15
  Speaker 2: industry to recover from the adultgens that went through after
• 1:25:18
  Speaker 2: the nineties. Uh, it went really really down. Uh, and
• 1:25:25
  Speaker 2: streaming has been a savior for it. And there's uh
• 1:25:29
  Speaker 2: the royalties seemed to increase. Uh. The so it's been
• 1:25:36
  Speaker 2: a boon. It's been a boon for the for the
• 1:25:39
  Speaker 2: record industry, for the artists UH that participated. Uh. Very
• 1:25:45
  Speaker 2: it's very very good, very good to see.
• 1:25:49
  Speaker 1: Okay, there are many artists and artists are not always
• 1:25:53
  Speaker 1: informed on the economics who decry streaming payouts and and
• 1:26:00
  Speaker 1: we know that if you stream in quantity, there's a
• 1:26:04
  Speaker 1: lot of money there. What is your viewpoint overall on
• 1:26:09
  Speaker 1: streaming payouts.
• 1:26:11
  Speaker 2: Well, there's two aspects of the streaming aspect. One is
• 1:26:14
  Speaker 2: the recordings stream backs for the recording that are the streaming,
• 1:26:18
  Speaker 2: and then there's one for the songwriters. The difficulty for
• 1:26:22
  Speaker 2: the songwriters is in particular, their royalties are regulated by
• 1:26:28
  Speaker 2: the government. There are hearings that have to be held
• 1:26:32
  Speaker 2: as to what the streaming rates are for songwriters. Now,
• 1:26:38
  Speaker 2: don't I don't think that the executives of companies would
• 1:26:42
  Speaker 2: like their rates set by the government. Uh, And I
• 1:26:46
  Speaker 2: don't think and songwriters certainly don't. And it's it's they
• 1:26:49
  Speaker 2: really feel wronged that their future and their livelihood and
• 1:26:54
  Speaker 2: their income is determined by the government in the sense
• 1:26:58
  Speaker 2: that you have to has to be hearings on what
• 1:27:01
  Speaker 2: the royalty rates are for that. Now, in other words,
• 1:27:09
  Speaker 2: there's a mechanical rate which they're limited as it's been
• 1:27:12
  Speaker 2: raised a little bit recently. There's the mechanical rate. There
• 1:27:16
  Speaker 2: is the streaming rates which are regulated, has going up
• 1:27:20
  Speaker 2: a little bit for them, but it's not the same
• 1:27:25
  Speaker 2: regular regulation that the artists have. Part of their money,
• 1:27:28
  Speaker 2: the artist's monies are regulated, but a good portion or
• 1:27:31
  Speaker 2: not a good portion with the record companies where they
• 1:27:34
  Speaker 2: can make a lot of money amount of money depending
• 1:27:37
  Speaker 2: upon their deal. So the songwriters had the biggest complaint
• 1:27:41
  Speaker 2: to make it this particular point because of all the
• 1:27:43
  Speaker 2: regulations that their income is regulated by the government or
• 1:27:48
  Speaker 2: our government decree. I should say.
• 1:27:50
  Speaker 1: Prior to the digital era royalties, the record companies never
• 1:27:55
  Speaker 1: paid one hundred percent on the royalties, and if you
• 1:27:58
  Speaker 1: did audit it cost you a fortune. There was a window.
• 1:28:04
  Speaker 1: If they found money, they settled. What's the status of
• 1:28:07
  Speaker 1: the honesty of payments these days?
• 1:28:15
  Speaker 2: Okay, let me answer it this way. I've never taken
• 1:28:19
  Speaker 2: an audit. I'm not going to respond to the word honesty.
• 1:28:23
  Speaker 2: I've never taken an audit of any company where we
• 1:28:25
  Speaker 2: haven't found money. Okay? Is it mistakes? Is misallocation? What
• 1:28:33
  Speaker 2: is it we always find bundy? Okay. I've never claimed
• 1:28:39
  Speaker 2: that they're dishonest. Okay. There are so many ways that
• 1:28:43
  Speaker 2: money can be calculated in a recording contract, and so
• 1:28:47
  Speaker 2: many It comes in from so many sources, in so
• 1:28:50
  Speaker 2: many ways, through so many departments of the record company.
• 1:28:54
  Speaker 2: It's not so simple. And mistakes are made. Are they
• 1:28:58
  Speaker 2: pretty good to correct the mistakes when you order and
• 1:29:02
  Speaker 2: find them? Yes? Are they fighting you on these things?
• 1:29:06
  Speaker 2: They'll fight because are the interpretation of the language. But generally,
• 1:29:11
  Speaker 2: I have ever taken it long where we didn't find
• 1:29:14
  Speaker 2: money and then we didn't settle. I've never had a
• 1:29:16
  Speaker 2: suit one of these companies, never have had the sue
• 1:29:19
  Speaker 2: one of these companies. We always resolve it. Are there
• 1:29:22
  Speaker 2: things in there that we challenged that we never resolved? Yeah,
• 1:29:26
  Speaker 2: there are some items like interest you really can get
• 1:29:31
  Speaker 2: interest from them. Or foreign taxes is another thing. You
• 1:29:35
  Speaker 2: always fight about whether they could have deducted from taxes
• 1:29:40
  Speaker 2: paid in the United States, et cetera. But I can't
• 1:29:45
  Speaker 2: say they've been dishonest. But let's say, if there's a question,
• 1:29:48
  Speaker 2: of course, they're going to take a favorable interpretation. And
• 1:29:51
  Speaker 2: a lot of these things are our questions as to
• 1:29:54
  Speaker 2: where it belongs or what it is, or have they
• 1:29:56
  Speaker 2: allocated it right. But I've settled every audit. I've never
• 1:30:03
  Speaker 2: had to sue them. Did we get one hundred percent
• 1:30:06
  Speaker 2: of what our claims in? No, we've never gotten one
• 1:30:09
  Speaker 2: hundred percent of our claim claims in, but sufficient to
• 1:30:12
  Speaker 2: satisfy the client.
• 1:30:15
  Speaker 1: Okay, just switching to the live business for one second.
• 1:30:20
  Speaker 1: Lawyers are heavily involved in negotiating tour deals. At this point,
• 1:30:24
  Speaker 1: to what degree are you involved in that and what
• 1:30:27
  Speaker 1: is the state of the business.
• 1:30:30
  Speaker 2: Yes, we are true to a large degree the agent's
• 1:30:34
  Speaker 2: run point on the tour deals. The agents are very
• 1:30:38
  Speaker 2: They're all very good. All the agencies are very good
• 1:30:41
  Speaker 2: at that. They've got a lot of experience. But we
• 1:30:44
  Speaker 2: were there going over the scene, questioning. I'm monitoring it,
• 1:30:51
  Speaker 2: putting our opinion on whether they it's certain items and
• 1:30:56
  Speaker 2: the things that but we work alongside managers and agents
• 1:31:00
  Speaker 2: and those things, not alone.
• 1:31:02
  Speaker 1: And what's the status of insurance for cancelation of gigs
• 1:31:07
  Speaker 1: for whatever reason?
• 1:31:07
  Speaker 2: Today there's insurance that we try and maintain. I have
• 1:31:13
  Speaker 2: not had a problem, not with not getting insured. We've
• 1:31:16
  Speaker 2: always had insurance.
• 1:31:19
  Speaker 1: Okay. To what degree has your practice of law been
• 1:31:23
  Speaker 1: all consuming and to what degree it has affected your
• 1:31:26
  Speaker 1: family life?
• 1:31:29
  Speaker 2: Huh? I hadn't had a negative because I have. I've
• 1:31:35
  Speaker 2: been married a long time. She was a musician, he
• 1:31:38
  Speaker 2: is a musician herself. She's very, very understanding. So it's
• 1:31:44
  Speaker 2: never been a problem with my wife. We've been married
• 1:31:50
  Speaker 2: fifty some other year, fifty three years. That's not been
• 1:31:55
  Speaker 2: a problem. But the business is all If you're going
• 1:31:57
  Speaker 2: to do this business and do it right, whether you're
• 1:31:59
  Speaker 2: a lawyer or an agent or a manager, it is
• 1:32:04
  Speaker 2: all consuming. It takes a lot of time. It's not
• 1:32:07
  Speaker 2: a nine to five job. It's weekends, not all weekends,
• 1:32:11
  Speaker 2: but it's weekends, it's nights, it's during your vacation, etc.
• 1:32:17
  Speaker 2: It goes with the territory. We don't think about it
• 1:32:19
  Speaker 2: because we don't. It's just our job. It's just our
• 1:32:22
  Speaker 2: job to do it, and we find a way to
• 1:32:24
  Speaker 2: do it.
• 1:32:24
  Speaker 1: And how did you meet your wife?
• 1:32:27
  Speaker 2: I met her backstage at the Greek Theater. I was
• 1:32:31
  Speaker 2: representing a featured act at that time, and she was
• 1:32:34
  Speaker 2: joining the opening act.
• 1:32:37
  Speaker 1: Okay, now you are in your nineties. I don't know
• 1:32:42
  Speaker 1: whether you're comfortable saying your exact age. How much long
• 1:32:47
  Speaker 1: are you going.
• 1:32:47
  Speaker 2: To do this? I'm as long as I can. I
• 1:32:54
  Speaker 2: love my job. I love the people I work with.
• 1:32:56
  Speaker 2: I love my partners, I love my clients. Uh. As
• 1:33:01
  Speaker 2: long as I'm healthy and UH can deal with it,
• 1:33:07
  Speaker 2: I want to do it. I enjoy my I enjoy
• 1:33:10
  Speaker 2: my work. I look forward to it. I get up
• 1:33:11
  Speaker 2: every day looking forward to the day, looking forward to
• 1:33:14
  Speaker 2: the interesting. I'm learning something every day. Why why wouldn't
• 1:33:17
  Speaker 2: I What what we're gonna do is sit at home?
• 1:33:19
  Speaker 2: Uh Uh. I enjoyed. I enjoy the clients I work with.
• 1:33:25
  Speaker 2: I've got doc on wood, terrific clients. Uh uh. Interesting
• 1:33:32
  Speaker 2: interesting issues. I'm learning something new every day. Uh. I
• 1:33:38
  Speaker 2: never know enough. There's no way to know enough about
• 1:33:41
  Speaker 2: this business. There's always something to learn every single day.
• 1:33:44
  Speaker 2: Uh Uh. It keeps you going. I think it keeps
• 1:33:48
  Speaker 2: you going.
• 1:33:50
  Speaker 1: Okay, this is a business that a lot of people
• 1:33:54
  Speaker 1: and this is a thing in general today they talk
• 1:33:56
  Speaker 1: about in sports where people don't understand the history. What
• 1:33:59
  Speaker 1: the young people not know about the entertainment business that
• 1:34:04
  Speaker 1: they should know?
• 1:34:08
  Speaker 2: No? No, well, okay, what the what it's It's a business. Okay,
• 1:34:15
  Speaker 2: it's a serious business. It's not fun and games. It's
• 1:34:18
  Speaker 2: a serious business. I guess learn your business. Learn learn
• 1:34:22
  Speaker 2: what learn what you're in here was just not just law. Uh,
• 1:34:27
  Speaker 2: it's not just accounting. It's it's a business. Learn the business. Uh,
• 1:34:32
  Speaker 2: learned everything about it. There's no end to it, and
• 1:34:35
  Speaker 2: it changes on every changes on a daily basis. Who
• 1:34:39
  Speaker 2: knew that not that long ago? About streaming? Who know
• 1:34:41
  Speaker 2: anything about streaming and what it is and where it's
• 1:34:46
  Speaker 2: going and what is developed? Who knew was going to
• 1:34:48
  Speaker 2: take over the took over the business? When I first
• 1:34:51
  Speaker 2: got into this business, there was the contract I think
• 1:34:54
  Speaker 2: I mentioned earlier. It was three pages. It was three
• 1:34:56
  Speaker 2: pages long, get a Capitol Records contract. The first way
• 1:34:58
  Speaker 2: I looked at that was three pages. It dealt with
• 1:35:02
  Speaker 2: forty fives and thirty three and seventy eight's. We're a
• 1:35:09
  Speaker 2: little ways from that, and it's been exciting. It's an
• 1:35:12
  Speaker 2: exciting venture to go along to learn these things and
• 1:35:15
  Speaker 2: see what people come up with and new and now
• 1:35:17
  Speaker 2: we're going into AI and what do we deal with that?
• 1:35:19
  Speaker 2: How are we dealing with that? So we're lucky we're
• 1:35:21
  Speaker 2: studying that, trying to learn AI, trying to learn what
• 1:35:27
  Speaker 2: it means, and how to prevent rip off of our
• 1:35:31
  Speaker 2: client's voices and things of that nature. And we don't
• 1:35:35
  Speaker 2: want licensing. We have to be careful with life. We
• 1:35:37
  Speaker 2: don't want our product license into AI without our permission,
• 1:35:40
  Speaker 2: without knowing exactly what it is. And we've got to
• 1:35:43
  Speaker 2: learn all about that. You're constantly learning. Learning is what
• 1:35:46
  Speaker 2: keeps you going, not sitting on your rear end at
• 1:35:50
  Speaker 2: home reading a book.
• 1:35:53
  Speaker 1: Okay, Jay, you're you know, you're amazing, as sharp as ever.
• 1:35:58
  Speaker 1: You've seen it all and I want to thank you
• 1:35:59
  Speaker 1: for taking this time to share your wisdom and your
• 1:36:02
  Speaker 1: story with my audience.
• 1:36:04
  Speaker 2: Well, well, thank you. Uh it's been It's been a
• 1:36:07
  Speaker 2: real pleasure. I just wanted to finish with one thing.
• 1:36:11
  Speaker 2: We started off with Rod Temperton. Then, Uh, as I
• 1:36:15
  Speaker 2: told you on the phone. I think we told you
• 1:36:17
  Speaker 2: on the phone. The most amazing thing about Rod is
• 1:36:20
  Speaker 2: when Quincy heard the When Quincy heard the the recording
• 1:36:25
  Speaker 2: is by heat Wave. Uh, and he called Rod Temperton,
• 1:36:29
  Speaker 2: and Rod Temperton came into came in here. First song
• 1:36:33
  Speaker 2: Rod wrote was off the Wall. Uh, it's extraordinary. And
• 1:36:39
  Speaker 2: then the next thing he wrote that was the next thing,
• 1:36:42
  Speaker 2: or a couple of songs later he wrote was for
• 1:36:45
  Speaker 2: the next album, Thriller. He wrote, thriller. Uh, it's extraordinary.
• 1:36:49
  Speaker 2: It's this little guy from from the north of England
• 1:36:53
  Speaker 2: who came out of nowhere.
• 1:36:59
  Speaker 1: Well, okay, so when someone walks in your office, do
• 1:37:02
  Speaker 1: you know who's gonna make it? And now how big
• 1:37:04
  Speaker 1: they're gonna be?
• 1:37:05
  Speaker 2: No, you don't know. You don't know. You can guess.
• 1:37:09
  Speaker 2: You can guess as to who's not gonna make it.
• 1:37:13
  Speaker 2: You can guess who's not gonna make it. But when
• 1:37:16
  Speaker 2: somebody comes in with songs like he wrote with heat
• 1:37:19
  Speaker 2: Wave as an example as an example, you you know,
• 1:37:25
  Speaker 2: you know it's only a matter of time, and I've
• 1:37:28
  Speaker 2: had that experience with a number of artists and songwriters.
• 1:37:32
  Speaker 2: You come in and you hear some of that stuff,
• 1:37:33
  Speaker 2: you say, there's no problem here.
• 1:37:39
  Speaker 1: Okay Jay, Thanks again, many more years of practice for you.
• 1:37:43
  Speaker 2: Thank you, Thank you doctor.
• 1:37:45
  Speaker 1: Until next time, This is Bob left sex