Latest / This Week On ICE / What private prisons stand to gain from ICE, Supreme Court's TPS decision, and Markwayne Mullin's beef with Rand Paul

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What private prisons stand to gain from ICE, Supreme Court's TPS decision, and Markwayne Mullin's beef with Rand Paul · This Week On ICE

• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: Hello and welcome to This Week on ICE.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Kelly Kimball.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm Matt Kendrick.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_01: On Monday,
• 0:12
  the Supreme Court refused to lift temporary protected status
• 0:15
  for hundreds of
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: thousands of migrants,
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_01: which the Trump administration had attempted to end on Tuesday.
• 0:21
  The court is now expected to expedite its decision as to
• 0:23
  whether the United States
• 0:24
  might kick out the people that offered shelter from violence
• 0:27
  and persecution in
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: Haiti and Syria.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: Matt will tell us more.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: Then,
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: for decades,
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: private prison companies have been an important partner for ICE and the
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: government's immigration agenda.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: But this year and onward,
• 0:40
  private prisons stand to gain more than they ever had under
• 0:43
  Trump's plans to
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: re-engineer ICE detention in this country.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: For this story,
• 0:48
  Kelly will take us inside one private prison company's
• 0:51
  quarterly earnings report as
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: a way to gauge the new age of America's ICE detention system.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: After the break,
• 0:59
  is President Trump's nominee to succeed Kristi Noam as the head
• 1:03
  of the Department
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: of Homeland Security already on the rocks?
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: After a fiery hearing on Capitol Hill Wednesday,
• 1:08
  Mark Wayne Mullen barely skated through to a full Senate vote
• 1:12
  while promising to
• 1:13
  take a quieter approach to the Trump administration's
• 1:15
  deportation program.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: Finally,
• 1:18
  a federal judge has ended the asylum claim of the family of
• 1:22
  Liam Conejo Ramos,
• 1:24
  the young boy in the blue bunny hat who became a national
• 1:27
  symbol of the ice
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: crackdown in Minneapolis,
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: Minnesota.
• 1:31
  We'll dive into what it means for Liam and his family and what
• 1:34
  it says about the
• 1:34
  pressure the Trump administration has continued to put on
• 1:37
  families that are most
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: vulnerable to ice deportation.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: Let's dive in.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: So mad big news from the Supreme Court this week,
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: which temporarily held off on ending temporary protected status,
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_01: otherwise known as TPS for certain migrants.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: What's the upshot?
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yes,
• 1:56
  so the Supreme Court issued what's called a writ of certiorati
• 2:00
  for temporary
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: protection status in these cases.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: That's a fancy way of saying that they're going to hear this case.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: And uniquely,
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: in this particular case,
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: compared to other cases about temporary protected status,
• 2:11
  they refuse to allow the status to expire while the case is
• 2:16
  being heard in front of
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: the Supreme Court.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: We've already seen other migrants from Nepal,
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: Honduras,
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: Nicaragua have their TPS expire while their court case is in process.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: We saw that as well with Venezuelans last year.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: But in this particular case,
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: for Haiti,
• 2:30
  which has a particularly large number of folks in the United
• 2:33
  States under TPS,
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: over 300,000,
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: and for Syria,
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: which is much smaller in terms of the raw numbers,
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: but also very dangerous situation in that country,
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: it means that they can stay in this country
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: For how long?
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: Not exactly clear,
• 2:49
  because the court would like to have an expedited hearing on
• 2:54
  this and make an
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: expedited decision.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: So it might be by the end of April,
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: these protections have been reviewed by the court and may expire,
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: may not expire.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: But in the meantime,
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: at least for the next month or so,
• 3:06
  it gives relief to these folks who are here under this special
• 3:09
  status and allows
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: them to seek either alternative status in the United States,
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: an asylum claim perhaps,
• 3:16
  or at least get their affairs in order while they prepare for
• 3:19
  possible disruptions
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: to their lives.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: We've talked about TPS before on this podcast,
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: but for those that are new to this podcast,
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: what is temporary protected status and how did it start?
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: In 1990,
• 3:32
  Congress passed a bill allowing for this particular status in
• 3:37
  countries that have
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: had major political upheaval,
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: violence,
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: environmental catastrophes,
• 3:44
  any number of sort of extraordinary circumstances that would
• 3:47
  make it dangerous for
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_00: people to remain in that country.
• 3:50
  It's been applied to a wide variety,
• 3:53
  and oftentimes that has proved temporary.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: So for example, an early country that got this TPS status
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: would be Bosnia and Herzegovina.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: During the breakup of Yugoslavia, there was, of course, a civil war.
• 4:04
  And Bosnia in particular was subject to attempts at genocide
• 4:10
  and ethnic cleansing
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: on the part of ethnic Serbs.
• 4:13
  And so a lot of Bosnians were able to come to the United States
• 4:16
  with this temporary
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: protected status,
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: escape that civil war.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: So when you have TPS,
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: you can also apply for a work permit in the United States,
• 4:24
  and you can apply for travel documents that would let you enter
• 4:27
  and leave the
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: United States.
• 4:29
  So it's a really important tool in the migration apparatus to
• 4:33
  kind of affect
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: emergency relief for these folks.
• 4:37
  And basically what the government is arguing here is based on a
• 4:42
  claim that outgoing
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: secretary of the Department of Homeland Security,
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: Kristi Noem,
• 4:47
  made that Syria and Haiti are now stable enough that these TPS
• 4:51
  applications should
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: no longer apply to them.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: That's simply not true.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: Haiti, in particular, is extremely dangerous.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_00: The vast majority of the capital,
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: between 85% and 90% of the physical area of the capital,
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: Port-au-Prince,
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: is controlled by armed gangs,
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: extremely violent armed gangs.
• 5:08
  Formal government has been in absolute chaos since the
• 5:10
  assassination of President
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: Jovenel Moise in 2021.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: We also saw the ousting of Acting President Ariel Henry.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: in 2024 on the ground, people face daily violence.
• 5:23
  And it's especially dangerous for women and girls because these
• 5:27
  armed groups in the
• 5:28
  capital use systematic rape as a method to intimidate and
• 5:32
  control neighborhoods and
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: individuals.
• 5:34
  So sending folks back to Haiti again,
• 5:37
  about 300,000 people are protected by TPS.
• 5:40
  Sending folks back to Haiti would put them at extreme risk for
• 5:43
  their lives.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: And anyone with any any stretch of empathy can imagine
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: how dangerous and how scared these folks are.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: Syria,
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: I think,
• 5:52
  is probably the slightly better argument in that the Assad
• 5:57
  government and the
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: crackdown by the Assad government was what allowed TPS to come through.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: So in 2011, we all know the Arab Spring happened.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: Bashar al-Assad,
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: the leader of Syria at the time,
• 6:08
  faced the protests and the uprising against his regime with
• 6:12
  extreme violence.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: And Syria has been in an attractable civil war until very recently.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: when a group called Hayat Tahrir al-Sham,
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: excuse me,
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_00: I don't speak Arabic,
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: so I'm sure I'm mispronouncing that,
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: they overthrew the Assad government.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: So there's the argument there that Assad's not in charge anymore.
• 6:29
  It's undercut,
• 6:30
  though,
• 6:31
  by the amount of violence that certain communities still face.
• 6:33
  So there's a group called Alawites who were very aligned with
• 6:36
  the Assad regime.
• 6:37
  They're kind of an ethno-religious group,
• 6:39
  as well as Druze,
• 6:40
  another ethno-religious group.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: They continue to face persecution under this new regime.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: Also, in the northeast of the country, there are Turkish-backed groups.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: that continue to clash with Kurdish militias in the Northeast.
• 6:52
  In addition to that,
• 6:53
  Israel has conducted multiple strikes in Syria over the last
• 6:57
  year.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: So the situation is very insecure.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_00: These folks would face risks to their lives if they were sent back.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: Nonetheless,
• 7:04
  the government is arguing that the original circumstances that
• 7:07
  created TPS are no
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: longer present,
• 7:10
  and it would like to argue to the court that TPS should be
• 7:13
  revoked on that basis.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: How is the court expected to rule on this?
• 7:19
  doesn't look great for tps it is it is unique that that they
• 7:23
  have preserved the
• 7:24
  status temporarily while they hear the case so there might be a
• 7:27
  ray of sunshine
• 7:28
  there but venezuelans who also face great insecurity and
• 7:32
  economic collapse in their
• 7:33
  country saw tps for them revoked last year by the court in fact
• 7:37
  it upheld that
• 7:38
  decision twice it made a ruling in may that went through an
• 7:40
  appeals process it made
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: the same ruling in october so tps disappeared for them
• 7:45
  I don't think that anybody has high hopes that the six to three
• 7:49
  conservative
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: majority,
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: half of which was appointed by Trump during his first term,
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: will rule against the government as it seeks to end this TPS.
• 7:58
  So it's very likely that the court will at least narrowly rule
• 8:03
  against continuing
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: TPS for these folks.
• 8:06
  We've seen DHS make attempts to revoke the TPS status of people
• 8:09
  from many different countries.
• 8:10
  So it makes me think,
• 8:11
  you know,
• 8:11
  we're talking right now about Syrians,
• 8:13
  Haitians.
• 8:14
  But what about migrants with TPS from other countries,
• 8:17
  let's say Myanmar,
• 8:18
  Nicaragua,
• 8:19
  Yemen?
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, all of those countries are up for having their TPS revoked.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: Basically,
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_00: the way it works is that TPS is renewed on a regular basis,
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: and DHS is allowing those renewals to expire,
• 8:33
  essentially saying that they don't want to extend the status
• 8:36
  any further to,
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: I believe,
• 8:38
  all 13 of the countries that currently have some sort of TPS
• 8:42
  applied to them.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: So besides Ukraine,
• 8:44
  sudan lebanon and el salvador which all have status that will
• 8:49
  come up for renewal
• 8:50
  this year between may and october for each of those countries
• 8:55
  all of these other
• 8:56
  countries have had their tps expire in the case of venezuela
• 9:00
  it's fully removed and
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: the court has upheld that this was part of the
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: as I understand it,
• 9:08
  Kristi Noem's attempt to maximize the pool of deportable people
• 9:12
  to meet a quota
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: that the Trump administration had set of 3,000 arrests per day,
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: leading to this mass deportation effort.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: But basically,
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: it seems very likely that unless Mark Wayne Mullen,
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_00: who we'll also talk about in a bit,
• 9:27
  radically change its course at DHS with regard to temporary
• 9:31
  protected status.
• 9:33
  The 1.3 million people in this country who are subject to that
• 9:36
  status are at risk
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: of losing it and being deported.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: We will continue to keep a finger to the pulse of this as it goes along.
• 9:44
  Now,
• 9:44
  we did just mention some of the private prison involved in this
• 9:49
  mass deportation effort.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: And Kelly,
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: you listened in on an earnings call for a company called CoreCivic,
• 9:54
  which is one of the largest private for-profit prison companies
• 9:58
  in the country.
• 9:59
  And they've been seeing a spike in revenues recently from
• 10:02
  contracts to run ICE
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: detention centers.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: So how's business these days?
• 10:08
  Business is booming for this particular private prison and for
• 10:12
  private prison.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's one among three major private prisons that contract with the federal
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: government to house ICE detainees.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_01: So I did listen to their quarterly earnings report.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_01: It was hosted by CoreCivic's CFO and CEO,
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_01: and they were basically in community with all of its investors.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: They just made more money than it ever has in decades.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: And when we look at the contracts that they have,
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: they have some with state,
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: they have some with federal.
• 10:37
  When it comes to ICE alone,
• 10:39
  it drove a 100% increase in revenue year over year.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: And they house nearly one in four ICE detainees currently in the country.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: And as we all know,
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_01: ICE has about 70,000 detainees,
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: which is the highest ever on record in this country.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_01: So with every escalation that ICE has had with this immigrant crackdown,
• 11:02
  CoreCivic and other private and for-profit prisons in this
• 11:05
  country have pretty much
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: everything to gain financially.
• 11:09
  So you're saying they doubled their revenue last year based on
• 11:12
  like 100% increase in revenue.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: That's incredible.
• 11:15
  So how dependent in the end are they on ICE contracts for their
• 11:20
  business for profit?
• 11:22
  The way that I see it is that this isn't really a private
• 11:24
  prison company.
• 11:26
  It's more of an immigration detention company that does some
• 11:29
  state prison work on the side.
• 11:31
  That is how much money and how dependent they are on the
• 11:34
  federal government for these contracts.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: And over the last year,
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: in this quarterly earnings report,
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: they mentioned that they opened up four new facilities,
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: which they intend to use to house detainees.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: they're poised to open up something like 3000 more beds.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: So something else that they had,
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: something else that they had mentioned,
• 11:51
  they threw a lot of backup napkin numbers and they threw around
• 11:54
  this number of,
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: it costs about $125 per detainee per diem.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I did the math and that is the cost of detainees in federal prisons.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: But technically speaking,
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: these ICE facilities,
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: these are for people that are not convicted of a crime.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: So if we're only investing that much money per person,
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: in facilities and treating them as if they are criminals.
• 12:17
  What does it say about the quality of life that these people
• 12:19
  are having in these in
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_01: these detention centers?
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, they're going to make a lot of money this year.
• 12:24
  And there's also going to be more people in detention than ever
• 12:27
  before in severely
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: questionable quality of facilities.
• 12:31
  You know,
• 12:32
  I took a peek at the call as well after you sent me the
• 12:34
  recording.
• 12:35
  And one of the things that stood out was the way that they
• 12:38
  talked about the Dilley
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: facility in Texas as like this top of the line,
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: best standard of care in the whole industry,
• 12:46
  while we've seen measles outbreaks and allegations of horrific
• 12:49
  conditions and abuse
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: at the Dilley Center.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: So it's night and day, right?
• 12:54
  And obviously,
• 12:54
  if you're on a shareholder call,
• 12:56
  you're going to spin it the best you can.
• 12:57
  But it was pretty sickening to hear the way that people at this
• 13:03
  company were
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: talking about this horrible prison.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: ICE has had these contracts with for-profit prison companies for decades.
• 13:11
  I think they said on the call,
• 13:12
  actually,
• 13:13
  that CoreCivic's first client was ICE decades ago.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: You're expecting things to change in the future.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I was wondering if you could tell us why.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_01: So as it happens right now,
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: in the eyes of DHS and ICE,
• 13:28
  private prisons are not moving fast enough for the amount of
• 13:31
  detainees they intend
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: to have moving forward.
• 13:35
  So what they're doing is that they're still going to maintain
• 13:38
  and still probably
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_01: grow these contracts with
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: for-profit private prisons,
• 13:43
  but it's also in lockstep with this larger scheme that they're
• 13:47
  building called the
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: ICE Detention Re-Engineering Initiative.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_01: So out of the windfall from the big,
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: beautiful bill,
• 13:53
  they're gonna pour $45 billion into not only opening up these
• 13:57
  contracts with
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: private prisons like CoreCivic,
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: but also opening up more and more warehouses.
• 14:02
  And we've talked about warehouses from like the first episode
• 14:06
  on this podcast,
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: They're going to keep putting those up because they are faster to build,
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: cheaper to build,
• 14:12
  and it allows them to put ever more detainees in the facilities
• 14:15
  at a much faster
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: rate.
• 14:17
  Do you know if they're going to contract with companies like
• 14:20
  CoreCivic to run those
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: warehouse facilities?
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like,
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: in other words,
• 14:24
  is the government putting up the walls and the cages and then
• 14:27
  having someone else
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: run it?
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: Or is DHS also running that?
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: Do you know?
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: That's an excellent question.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: At least on this one particular call with CoreCivic,
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: they described the warehouses as a very separate thing.
• 14:38
  And investors were wondering if it was even a competitor to
• 14:41
  CoreCivic's facilities and services.
• 14:44
  So something that a lot of experts are saying is that this
• 14:46
  would be the most
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: dramatic reshaping of
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: our ICE detention system since its significant expansion in the 1990s.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, make it the jump with a $45 billion investment.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_01: That's serious money.
• 15:00
  And we're going to really see that the shape of ICE detentions
• 15:04
  really transform in
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: just a matter of months.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: When I'm thinking about the private prisons specifically,
• 15:09
  they're already opening up four facilities that had remained
• 15:12
  dormant for quite some
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_01: time.
• 15:14
  And they're already saying that they're going to make money on
• 15:17
  those facilities
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_01: within the first quarter of this year.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: So things are already moving fast.
• 15:22
  DHS wants to move even faster,
• 15:24
  and we're going to see things transform pretty quickly.
• 15:27
  So with this $45 billion investment that DHS is pouring into
• 15:31
  this re-engineering
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: initiative that they're calling it,
• 15:34
  I think something that really underscores the attitude that
• 15:37
  they're having is put
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: perfectly by acting ICE director Todd Lyons.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: And he said, this is going to be Amazon Prime, but with human beings.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: And one more thing about that.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: I wanted to do some number crunching on what $45 billion looks like,
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: because that's a really big number.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's hard to describe what that means.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: With $45 billion,
• 15:58
  the United States could have built anywhere from $87,000 to
• 16:01
  $110,000 affordable
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: housing units in this country.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: So roughly 800 to 1,000 complexes of 100 units each.
• 16:11
  If you do that math and I splice together a number of different
• 16:15
  affordable housing
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_01: studies done in this country,
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: we could have really made something constructive with this.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: It could also,
• 16:22
  that same money can construct anywhere from 300 to over 700 new
• 16:27
  public schools in
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: this country.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: We're using that 45 billion to detain migrants.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: Really disturbing.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for looking into that, Kelly.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 16:36
  We're going to take a little break and we'll be right back to
• 16:38
  talk about Mark
• 16:39
  Mayn-Mullen's mess of a Senate hearing this week and the sad
• 16:43
  final result of Liam
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: Coneco-Ramos family asylum hearing.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: We'll be right back.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_01: Hi folks.
• 16:52
  We're ever so grateful that so many of you have come along with
• 16:55
  us for the ride.
• 16:57
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• 16:58
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• 17:01
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• 17:05
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• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: keep producing this show on a topic so close to our hearts.
• 17:10
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• 17:12
  coming down the pike for you.
• 17:14
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• 17:15
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• 17:17
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• 17:18
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• 17:20
  and our Substack will do so much for us to grow in these early
• 17:24
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• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: All right, back to the show.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome back to This Week on Ice.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: So Matt, it sounds like there was more fun on Capitol Hill this week.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: Tell us a bit about the welcome that Mark Wayne Mullen got in the Senate.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it was a little rockier than expected.
• 17:49
  So Mark Wayne Mullen is the Trump administration's nominee to
• 17:53
  succeed Kristi Noem
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: as the secretary of Homeland Security.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: He's a senator,
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: a member of the Cherokee Nation,
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: famously a mixed martial art,
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: trained kind of guy.
• 18:04
  But he went up against the Senate's Homeland Security and
• 18:10
  Government Affairs
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: Committee,
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: which is chaired by Rand Paul.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: Now, Rand Paul...
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: does not like Mark Wayne Mullen.
• 18:17
  Rand Paul called him a snake,
• 18:19
  said he was unfit to be leading a large government agency.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: Remember, this is a Republican senator from Kentucky.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_00: Rand Paul said that he had anger issues, said he would vote against him.
• 18:29
  He asked Mullen why he had expressed support for the man who
• 18:34
  attacked Paul and
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: broke three of his ribs in 2017.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: You might remember that.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: Do you remember that incident?
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: It was a while ago, but...
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: Everything you just shared is lore that I was not aware of.
• 18:45
  So if you see me shaking my head,
• 18:47
  it's just me being like,
• 18:48
  well,
• 18:49
  who is this man?
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_01: What?
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: Not familiar with that story.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: Go right ahead.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: Rand Paul was apparently doing lawn work back in Kentucky in 2017,
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: and a neighbor he had a disagreement with came and tackled him.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: Rand Paul's an old guy.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: They had a physical confrontation.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: He ended up breaking three ribs.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, no one should support political violence.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: And as odious as you might find Rand Paul,
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: he doesn't deserve to be attacked on the steps of his house.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: And Mark Wayne Mullen had said recently that he saw why
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: Rand Paul would be attacked by this guy.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: Basically,
• 19:26
  it's the kind of language and trolling that a lot of right-wing
• 19:29
  folks are using
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: right now.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: So Paul came at him in this hearing and wouldn't vote for him,
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: repeatedly questioned his leadership ability.
• 19:41
  Both Paul and the Democrats on the committee had some pretty
• 19:44
  pointed questions
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: about a trip that Mullen took in 2016 where he claimed he,
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: quote,
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: smelled war.
• 19:52
  And when pressed on this,
• 19:54
  he claimed like,
• 19:54
  oh,
• 19:55
  I can't tell you what this was about.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's classified.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so the committee adjourned to a SCIF,
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: a Secure Compartmentalized Information Facility,
• 20:06
  where he could allegedly share these classified details of
• 20:10
  whatever trip that he
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: took.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: Some people are describing this as like stolen valor,
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: when people pretend that they were in the military,
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: but they actually weren't,
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: et cetera,
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: et cetera.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: Paul said he would vote against him.
• 20:20
  And it looked for a moment like he might not have the votes to
• 20:25
  go on to the full Senate.
• 20:27
  It looked for a moment like he didn't,
• 20:28
  but ultimately,
• 20:29
  did he have the votes for confirmation?
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: So even though Paul did vote against him on Thursday morning,
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: John Fetterman of Pennsylvania switched sides,
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: went from the Democrats to the Republicans,
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: voted with the Republican majority on this committee.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: So it was an eight to seven decision.
• 20:47
  He passed through the committee and now will go to the full
• 20:51
  Senate for confirmation.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: He's very likely to get the simple majority he needs there.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: Republicans control 53 seats.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: Even if Rand Paul votes against him again in the Senate,
• 21:02
  There are two other Republicans and John Fetterman has been
• 21:05
  consistently voting
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: with Republicans on this DHS thing.
• 21:08
  Basically,
• 21:10
  Fetterman feels that the mini shutdown confrontation is
• 21:15
  spurious.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: He wants to see that all reopened.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: He's voted with the Republicans to reopen it, every vote they've held.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: As part of that, he wants to see Mullen confirmed.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: So it's also probably why Paul felt so comfortable attacking Mullen,
• 21:31
  is he figured that Fetterman would kind of replace him as the
• 21:35
  eighth vote to get
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: him past committee.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: But it's not a great way to start one's tenure.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: What could we glean about any changes Mullen wants to make at DHS?
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: He was promising to be much more chill.
• 21:49
  He was basically saying he didn't want to be in the headlines
• 21:51
  all the time.
• 21:52
  He was saying that he wanted ICE to pull back from kind of
• 21:56
  frontline enforcement
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: where they're barging down people's doors.
• 22:00
  He also tried to give the Democrats a little bit of a bone and
• 22:06
  say that he would
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: reverse the guidance from Kristi Noem that allowed
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: ICE agents to use what's called an administrative warrant,
• 22:16
  which is just a warrant signed by an ICE agent to barge into
• 22:20
  people's homes.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: In almost all cases, those are basically just pieces of paper.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: If police or law enforcement wants to get into your home,
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: they need a warrant signed by a judge,
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: which gives the judge oversight over their activities.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: And Mullen was saying that he would revert to that.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: Democrats didn't seem to buy it on his word alone.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: They were saying, like, this needs to be a law.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: We can't just take your word for it.
• 22:43
  It does seem to be part of a pattern among ICE recently where
• 22:47
  they're realizing
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: that they overstepped in Minnesota.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: They need to pull back a little bit.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think that means they're going to stop harassing immigrants,
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: but they will do so more quietly and in a less public way.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that has a lot to do with the midterms.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: We see Trump's polling in the toilet, as we've already discussed, from
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: the ice thing.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: Now the Iran war is stretching on.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: We're seeing energy prices rise with the Strait of Hormuz being blocked.
• 23:16
  And all of it is adding up into this pretty intimidating
• 23:19
  landscape for Republicans
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: to run in this midterm election.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I think as a result,
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: the guidance from on high is take it down a notch,
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: at least on immigration,
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: which if Republicans win the midterms,
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: they can always kick back up into high gear for at least another year.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_01: Okay,
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 23:37
  much to discuss and much to look toward as Mullen settles into
• 23:43
  his new rule,
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: potentially.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:46
  So for our last story this week,
• 23:47
  some very disappointing news from Minnesota.
• 23:50
  Kelly,
• 23:51
  what's going on with Liam Conejo-Ramos and his family's asylum
• 23:55
  claim?
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 23:56
  And I am apologetic to end on such a sad note for this
• 24:00
  particular episode.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: Basically,
• 24:02
  an immigration judge this week has ended the asylum claims of
• 24:05
  Liam Conejo-Ramos and
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: his family,
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: according to their Minneapolis lawyer.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: As we may remember,
• 24:11
  Liam Conejo-Ramos and his father were detained by ICE in
• 24:15
  Minneapolis earlier this
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: year during ICE's Operation Metro surge.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: They had detained Liam Conejo-Ramos in the driveway of the family's home,
• 24:24
  And then ICE agents basically forced Liam Conejo Ramos to knock
• 24:27
  on his family's
• 24:27
  door and basically use Liam as bait to coax all of the family
• 24:32
  out of the home so
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: that they can all be detained by ICE.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: So the family was detained, but then released in early February.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: And their asylum claim was basically up in the courts for some time.
• 24:44
  That judge basically says that they're ending the asylum claim
• 24:48
  and they have to be
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_01: deported to return to Ecuador.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: So does that mean they will be deported?
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: Is there any other avenue for appeal for them?
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_01: So basically, his family's lawyer has appealed this claim.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: If that appeal is denied, they will be deported to Ecuador.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, this isn't just Liam Conejo Ramos, but his entire family.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: So he has a 13 year old brother.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: He has two parents, Adrian Conejo Arias and Erika Ramos.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: Erika is pregnant with the couple's third child.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: The entire family would be deported if their appeal is denied.
• 25:22
  That's very scary,
• 25:23
  especially given the state of instability in Ecuador recently.
• 25:28
  One would wonder why is the Trump administration picking on
• 25:31
  this one particular family,
• 25:32
  right?
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: Why is that?
• 25:33
  I think Liam Conejo Ramos's case underscores the narrative that
• 25:38
  Trump is trying to
• 25:39
  say about the pressure he wants to put on families most
• 25:42
  vulnerable to deportation.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: So this particular family is,
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_01: I see them as being used as an example to say,
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: this is the pressure that we are going to put your family under.
• 25:52
  We are not beyond the idea of using your children as bait to
• 25:56
  get you out of your
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: home and detain you.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: And we're going to detain you and then we're going to deny your claim,
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: your asylum claim,
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: and then we will deport you back to your country.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: This narrative fits really well with Trump trying to,
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: the Trump administration,
• 26:09
  trying to pressure people to simply self-deport and not even go
• 26:13
  through the
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: hullabaloo altogether.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, very sad, very sad.
• 26:17
  I'm holding my fingers crossed for their appeal,
• 26:19
  but it seems that they're facing steep odds.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_00: That's it for us this week.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_00: As always, you can reach us at thisweekonice at gmail.com.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: And if you like this podcast, please share it with a friend.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: It means a lot to us.
• 26:32
  In the meantime,
• 26:32
  stay safe,
• 26:33
  look out for your neighbors,
• 26:34
  and we'll see you next week.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_01: See you next week.