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Missing Mom and Preacher's Wife Vanish, Picking up Kids: Car Just Found · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:00
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, the desperate search for two
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Speaker 1: Kansas moms, one of them a preacher's wife, who seemingly
0:14
Speaker 1: vanished into thin air on their way to pick up
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Speaker 1: the children. Now we learn their car has been found, What,
0:23
Speaker 1: if any clues does it reveal.
0:26
Speaker 2: I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.
0:29
Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us. I've covered a lot
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Speaker 1: of missing people cases. I can't even count them all,
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Speaker 1: but it's very rare that two women, two adults disappear
0:56
Speaker 1: at the same time.
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Speaker 2: Think about the logistics of that. Think about some guy.
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Speaker 1: Coming up and saying, hey, get in my car. How's
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Speaker 1: he going to wrangle two adult females into the car.
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Speaker 2: Why it's not going to run for it? Now, it's
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Speaker 2: different when.
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Speaker 1: You think about, for instance, libbyan Abbey, the two little
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Speaker 1: girls that were abducted and murdered in Delphi. They were
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Speaker 1: literally taken off of a trestle bridge in plain View
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Speaker 1: and directed I believe, at gunpoint down the side of
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Speaker 1: the hill underneath that.
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Speaker 2: Trestle bridge, and they were murdered.
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Speaker 1: It's easier to control children or young teens, especially teens
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Speaker 1: that have been sheltered and don't know what to do
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Speaker 1: in that situation. But two adult females, moms both of them,
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Speaker 1: You'd think they would.
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Speaker 2: Run for it or resist.
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Speaker 1: But as of right now, no sign of these two
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Speaker 1: missing moms. Veronica and Jillian with me an all star
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Speaker 1: panel to make sense of what we know right now?
2:02
Speaker 1: But straight out to Nicole Parton, joining us climeb online
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Speaker 1: dot Com investigative reporter Nicole, take a listen to this.
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Speaker 3: At six fifteen pm Saturday, Oklahoma Highway Patrol issued a
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Speaker 3: missing endangered alert for Butler and Kelly on behalf of
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Speaker 3: the Texas County Sheriffs. By Sunday evening, the Oklahoma State
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Speaker 3: Bureau of Investigation announced they would be joining the investigation
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Speaker 3: into Butler and Kelly's quote suspicious disappearance. Authorities have remained
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Speaker 3: tight lipped about any leads on the women's whereabouts, releasing
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Speaker 3: very few details in the case as we enter the
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Speaker 3: fifth day since the women were last seen.
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Speaker 1: Hey, Nicole Parton, hold on just my moment, Let me
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Speaker 1: first go to door. Nicole Vienna joining us out of LA.
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Speaker 1: Doctor Nicole is a forensic psychologist who specializes in trauma
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Speaker 1: and you know, developmental disorders. She's the CEO of Vienna
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Speaker 1: Psychological Group or CV is so long, I don't have
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Speaker 1: time to read it all. Dr Nicole, thank you for
3:00
Speaker 1: with us. You know a lot of times I hear
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Speaker 1: when a woman goes missing, somebody else say she ran
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Speaker 1: off with her boyfriend.
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Speaker 2: What boyfriend? You think this.
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Speaker 1: Preacher's wife is stashing a hot young boyfriend somewhere. That
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Speaker 1: did not happen, And it's very dismissive. I don't like
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Speaker 1: it because it seems like here's a great example, Doctor
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Speaker 1: Nicole Vienna. I don't know if you recall Stacy Peterson.
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Speaker 1: She was married to a cop, Drew Peterson. She just disappeared.
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Speaker 1: And all Peterson would say for months and months and
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Speaker 1: to this day she ran off with her boyfriend, like
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Speaker 1: it'll be a cold day at h double l that
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Speaker 1: most moms would leave their children for some guy. Really,
3:47
Speaker 1: as my grandmother would say, men are like buses. A
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Speaker 1: new one will come along every fifteen minutes. Just wait,
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Speaker 1: so you're gonna leave your children. But here's the kicker.
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Speaker 1: Not one, but two moms decide they're gonna leave their
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Speaker 1: children and run off. That's bs technical legal term. That
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Speaker 1: did not happen. They did not go willingly.
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Speaker 2: Doctor Nicole, it doesn't sound like it.
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Speaker 4: I suspect that there was probably fall play involved on
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Speaker 4: one party's end or the other.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a really good point, doctor Nicole.
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Speaker 1: One party's end or the other again with me an
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Speaker 1: all star panel.
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Speaker 2: But the first thing I like.
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Speaker 1: To do in addition to finding out about my victims,
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Speaker 1: because Kathleen Murphy, poor Nicole parton Nicole, I'm getting there.
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Speaker 1: Kathleen Murphy is with me, high profile lawyer and joining
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Speaker 1: us out of North Carolina. She's at Triangle Divorce Lawyers.
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Speaker 1: And she used to say she was in domestic law,
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Speaker 1: but that makes it sound like we're all sitting around
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Speaker 1: the fireplace having hot chocolate. Domestic law it's, you know,
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Speaker 1: like putting two whit cats and a barrel when you
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Speaker 1: go into court on a domestic like a divorce or
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Speaker 1: a custody Kathleen, have you noticed every time sometimes a
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Speaker 1: teen girl or an adult female goes missing, same second verse,
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Speaker 1: same as a first she ran off with her boyfriend.
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Speaker 1: But how often do you see a grown woman, not one,
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Speaker 1: but two of them decide to abandon their children.
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Speaker 5: Absolutely, it's very unusual to have two women who are
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Speaker 5: disappearing at the same time, both of them mothers. It's
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Speaker 5: highly unlikely that they have anything on their agenda, but
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Speaker 5: what's in the best interest of their children at that time?
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Speaker 1: You're right, and you've seen so many custody cases where
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Speaker 1: the moms go to the mat to hold on to
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Speaker 1: the children and protect the children. That's what I'm saying, Nicole, Party.
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Speaker 1: Let's set up a timeline. Nicole's joining us some crime
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Speaker 1: online dot com. Nicole, what do we know about? I
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Speaker 1: understand one of the moms was collecting her children to
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Speaker 1: throw a birthday party for them.
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Speaker 2: Let's just start at the beginning.
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Speaker 6: That's right. So the two women left Elkhart, Kansas on
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Speaker 6: Saturday morning, heading to pick up Veronica's children for their
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Speaker 6: birthday party. It was a sixteen mile trip to Eva, Oklahoma.
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Speaker 6: They were actually going to a place called Four Corners
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Speaker 6: Trading Posts.
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Speaker 1: You got to give me a little bit more information, Nicole.
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Speaker 1: They're leaving from where to go to?
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Speaker 2: Where? It's Elkhart right, Elkhart.
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Speaker 6: Elkhart, Kansas. Sixteen mile trip.
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Speaker 1: Okay, Elkhart, Kansas on Highway ninety five ish and Road L.
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Speaker 6: They were leaving from their hometown of Elkhart, Kansas. The
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Speaker 6: two moms were traveling together early Saturday morning with plans
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Speaker 6: to go a sixteen mile trip to pick up Veronica's
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Speaker 6: two children for a birthday party. They never made it
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Speaker 6: to Eva, Oklahoma, which is where they were headed Nicole Parton.
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Speaker 1: When I was preparing to discuss the case, I learned
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Speaker 1: that Elkhart is actually it's a small town. There is
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Speaker 1: a little under two thousand people that lived there as
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Speaker 1: of the last census. And that's important for one reason,
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Speaker 1: it's a smaller suspect pool. And second, I find out
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Speaker 1: and correct me if I'm wrong on this geography. But
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Speaker 1: it straddles it's very close to the Kansas Oklahoma state border.
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Speaker 2: Is that right?
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Speaker 6: That's correct.
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Speaker 1: Now another issue is it's a little under nine miles
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Speaker 1: from the Kansas Colorado border.
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Speaker 2: Is that right?
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Speaker 6: Yes? It is?
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Speaker 2: Okay, here's the problem right there.
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Speaker 1: Let me go to Dan Corsantino, joining US former police
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Speaker 1: chief also served on US Homeland Security Senior Advisory Board
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Speaker 1: at Dancorsatino dot com. Here's a problem with that, Dan,
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Speaker 1: You've got three jurisdictions involved in I don't mean three
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Speaker 1: cities in one state. I mean potentially Oklahoma, Kansas and Colorado.
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Speaker 1: Do you think they're talking to each other, because a
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Speaker 1: lot of times killers, missing people slip through the cracks
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Speaker 1: when you're dealing with cross state boundary issues.
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Speaker 7: Interstate absolutely, the question is the timing issue between the
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Speaker 7: jurisdictions and specifically the origination point, and who's going to
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Speaker 7: take the lead the information that's being disseminated by the
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Speaker 7: primary jurisdiction to the other jurisdictions and the accuracy of
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Speaker 7: the information they have at the origination point as it
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Speaker 7: evolves throughout the investigation.
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Speaker 1: Take a listen to Sidney Sumner crime online dot com.
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Speaker 8: Jillian Kelly, a mom of four, serves as a secretary
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Speaker 8: at Hugoton, Kansas, First Christian Church, where her husband, Heath Kelly,
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Speaker 8: is the pastor. The Kellys are planning a move to Indianola, Iowa,
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Speaker 8: as Heath Kelly has been called as the new pastor
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Speaker 8: of Willow Christian Church. Friendships among clergy families are easily made,
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Speaker 8: and Pastor Tim Singer of Hugoton Assembly of God introduces
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Speaker 8: the Kellys to mom of two for Ronica Butler. She's
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Speaker 8: described by friends as kind and a gardening enthusiast.
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Speaker 1: I want you to know more about the victims why
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Speaker 1: if you know more about the victims, the.
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Speaker 2: Easier it will be to identify a perp.
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Speaker 1: If this kidnapping was not random, and yes, I think
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Speaker 1: it was a kidnapping or worse, what do.
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Speaker 2: We know about them?
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Speaker 1: I mean, back to you, Kathleen Murphy, there's a big
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Speaker 1: difference if you're looking for Hey, let's just say the
9:39
Speaker 1: Long Island serial killer victims. Many of them are prostitutes.
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Speaker 1: I'm not judging. I don't care what they do for
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Speaker 1: a living. As far as I'm concerned, their life is
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Speaker 1: just as important as his preacher's wife life. But what
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Speaker 1: I'm saying is it's easier to identify potential suspects when
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Speaker 1: you have a victim, as in this case, as opposed
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Speaker 1: to an escort. Because the escort meets so many unknown
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Speaker 1: males every day. She's meeting people online, she's meeting people
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Speaker 1: out on street.
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Speaker 2: It could be anybody.
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Speaker 1: So the fact that these two women had no connection
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Speaker 1: with a large grouping of males, and I'm saying males
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Speaker 1: because typically males are responsible for more violent crime, that
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Speaker 1: gives us a much smaller suspect pool.
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Speaker 2: Kathleen, and they.
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Speaker 5: Were going to a birthday party, they were picking up
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Speaker 5: a child. How suspect is that?
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Speaker 2: It's very straightforward. We do it all day long, crime
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Speaker 2: stories with Nancy Grace.
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Speaker 1: Guys, Let's find out more about the second victim you've
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Speaker 1: heard about. Jillian Kelly, a mother a four secretary at
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Speaker 1: the Kansas First Christian Church. Her husband, Heath Kelly, a
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Speaker 1: pastor there. We know about her. What do we know
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Speaker 1: about Veronica Butler?
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Speaker 2: Listen?
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Speaker 9: Veronica Butler has been locked in a year's long battle
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Speaker 9: with her children's dad. Cole and Kendall are with paternal grandmother,
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Speaker 9: Tiffany Adams. Butler plans to host a birthday party for
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Speaker 9: Kendall and makes the forty five minute drive to her
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Speaker 9: hometown of Eva, Oklahoma to pick them up. Jillian Kelly
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Speaker 9: rides with Butler.
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Speaker 1: Okay, back to you, Nicole Parton, joining US Crime Online
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Speaker 1: dot Com investigative reporter. Let's track it. They are driving.
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Speaker 1: I believe he said fifteen or sixteen miles. Why would
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Speaker 1: that take forty five minutes.
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Speaker 6: It's a very rural area, yes, sixteen miles, but it's
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Speaker 6: a very rural area. A lot of it is. It
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Speaker 6: is ninety five Highway ninety five. But then you're in
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Speaker 6: a very rural two lane area for a portion of
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Speaker 6: the drive, So I imagine that slows it down a bit.
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Speaker 1: Okay, that makes sense, not on an interstate where you
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Speaker 1: can drive seventy five miles an hour. Right, they're in
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Speaker 1: a twenty five mph zone for a part of the time.
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Speaker 2: So they've got a forty.
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Speaker 1: Five minute drive to go through a kid's birthday party.
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Speaker 1: You'd think what could go wrong? So tell me about
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Speaker 1: their route.
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Speaker 2: They were going.
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Speaker 10: From Elkhart to where they were going to a location
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Speaker 10: called Four Corners Trading Post, which is just south of Eva, Oklahoma.
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Speaker 6: Four Corners Trading Post is in a very rural area
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Speaker 6: of Oklahoma. Honestly, there isn't much there other than this
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Speaker 6: trading post, which is an intersection of four roads coming together.
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Speaker 6: There's a lot of pig farms in the area, silos,
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Speaker 6: grain feeders, and that's about it. So that is the
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Speaker 6: meeting location where they're picking up Veronica's children for the
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Speaker 6: birthday party.
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Speaker 1: For those of you just joining us, home a police
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Speaker 1: desperately searching for two Kansas moms who seemingly vanish into
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Speaker 1: thin air. They were on their way to throw a
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Speaker 1: kid's birthday party.
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Speaker 2: One of the mom's child.
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Speaker 1: One of these women an avid gardener, and one of
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Speaker 1: them a preacher's wife.
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Speaker 2: Now, how do these two women.
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Speaker 1: Just vanish on a forty five minute drive to throw
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Speaker 1: a kid's birthday party? How does that happen? We often
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Speaker 1: hear about one woman going missing. Oh my goodness, I
13:34
Speaker 1: could name a million of them right now. Molly Tibbitts
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Speaker 1: goes missing jogging. Karina Mitronto goes missing jogging. It goes
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Speaker 1: on and on and on. Remember Missus Fletcher, she goes
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Speaker 1: missing in Tennessee and we find out a convicted felon
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Speaker 1: has taken her and killed her.
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Speaker 2: She was out jogging. We hear that a lot.
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Speaker 1: We hear about women leaving the mall and walking to
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Speaker 1: their car. Bam, they're gone. We hear about women going
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Speaker 1: to a nightclub or a bar or a restaurant. They
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Speaker 1: go missing, like Natalie Holloway, just boom gone. But how
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Speaker 1: often do you hear about a group missing? In this
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Speaker 1: case two adult women. And again, these are not women
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Speaker 1: that are on the corner selling crack. These are not
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Speaker 1: escorts that meet you know, any number of men doing
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Speaker 1: their job. These are two miles on the way to
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Speaker 1: throw a birthday party. For a kid, So it's a
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Speaker 1: very very unlikely scenario. Joining me right now, Special guest,
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Speaker 1: John Elwood, Deputy Chief at Manatee County Search and Rescue.
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Speaker 1: You can find him at Manatee County SAAR Search and
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Speaker 1: Rescue dot org. John, thank you for being with us.
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Speaker 1: You have looked for a lot of people. How often
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Speaker 1: and do two adults go missing at the same time.
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Speaker 1: I keep saying that because it's very rare. It is
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Speaker 1: a conundrum and try to figure it out.
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Speaker 11: In my experience, I've never encountered that type of scenario.
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Speaker 11: Usually it's one person that is missing, and in an
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Speaker 11: instance of a vehicle, you usually don't have what we
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Speaker 11: refer to in the industry as a scent article, a
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Speaker 11: piece of clothing, a hat, something that the person has worn.
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Speaker 11: So lots of times that kind of hampers the investigation.
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Speaker 1: Okay, hold on, I want to pick on something you
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Speaker 1: just said, John Elwood.
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Speaker 2: John, you said a scent article.
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Speaker 1: Do you believe that in this case, possibly in the vehicle,
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Speaker 1: the abandoned car, there was a scent vehicle Because right
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Speaker 1: now we're trying to nail.
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Speaker 2: Down the facts.
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Speaker 1: Nobody's talking, which I also find very odd, but don't
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Speaker 1: you believe there would have been a scent article left
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Speaker 1: in the car or could the dogs get sent off
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Speaker 1: the inside of the car.
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Speaker 11: So in most cases, especially where you were talking about,
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Speaker 11: they were in a rural town and the weather that
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Speaker 11: it's still kind of cold, one would think that there
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Speaker 11: would be you know, a sweater, a jacket, maybe a
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Speaker 11: stocking cap. In the event that we're not able to
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Speaker 11: procure a scent article, we can take swabs of the
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Speaker 11: steering wheel, the dash, the door panel, the seats where
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Speaker 11: the people had been sitting, and introduce that to one
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Speaker 11: of the canines, and then we can more or less
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Speaker 11: make an improvised scent article from that.
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Speaker 1: An improvised scent article. Wow, okay, that makes perfect sense
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Speaker 1: to me. So in your mind, is that what they
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Speaker 1: should be doing right now?
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Speaker 11: Yes, ma'am. There's a couple options that they have. First
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Speaker 11: and foremost, you can use what's referred to as a
16:50
Speaker 11: tracking or trailing canine their scent specific, meaning that they
16:54
Speaker 11: would look for one particular person. So, whether you have
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Speaker 11: a scent article or you improvise a article, you could
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Speaker 11: try to see if you've got a direction of travel
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Speaker 11: from the vehicle from the people meaning that did they
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Speaker 11: have some type of mechanical problem with the car, and
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Speaker 11: say they were in that remote area and they had
17:11
Speaker 11: no cell coverage, they may have decided to start walking
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Speaker 11: towards their destination.
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Speaker 1: Oh gosh, yes, if they had had car trouble, that's
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Speaker 1: a really good point. And from what I'm understanding, Coleparton,
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Speaker 1: the car was found abandoned about three miles and the
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Speaker 1: destination explained.
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Speaker 2: That's right.
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Speaker 6: The car was found three miles short of the destination, again,
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Speaker 6: very rural area on Highway ninety five, close to Road L.
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Speaker 6: The car was found around ten thirty am, so that's
17:42
Speaker 6: about an hour and a half after the ladies had
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Speaker 6: left to go pick up the children.
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Speaker 1: You know, I find it interesting that law enforcement is
17:50
Speaker 1: saying they find their disappearance suspicious.
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Speaker 2: Okay, we know that.
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Speaker 1: I guarantee the families of these two women have told them, Wow,
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Speaker 1: this is the I need to know a little bit more.
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Speaker 1: They're also saying at risk. That tells me they also
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Speaker 1: don't think these two women wandered off on their own.
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Speaker 1: Have you ever heard of like girls getaways? I doubt
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Speaker 1: you have those, Nicole Parton, because you actually have ten children,
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Speaker 1: one zero ten children.
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Speaker 2: Not a lot of getaways for you.
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Speaker 1: But I hear about other women having weekend get togethers
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Speaker 1: and girls' weekends. That is not what happened here, some
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Speaker 1: impromptu alone time.
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Speaker 2: Let's talk about.
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Speaker 1: The vehicle, because to me, that's the biggest other than
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Speaker 1: who they may know in their lives that may wish
18:40
Speaker 1: to do them harm. And that could be an ex.
18:44
Speaker 1: It could be a husband, it could be a boyfriend.
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Speaker 1: It could be as I said, an ex boyfriend or husband.
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Speaker 1: It could be the delivery boy. It could be the
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Speaker 1: guy at the grocery store. It could be a coworker.
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Speaker 1: So I'm not limiting this to intimate partners. Anybody in
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Speaker 1: their sphere is the first person you look at, and
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Speaker 1: then you go out like neighbors, neighbors, the next neighborhood,
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Speaker 1: over people that they may have worked with in the past.
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Speaker 1: You start looking out, and of course you look for men.
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Speaker 1: I promise you a woman did not hold them at
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Speaker 1: gunpoint and make them leave their car. Biggest clue other
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Speaker 1: than their pool of people around them, their inner circle.
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Speaker 2: You look at that car.
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Speaker 1: I want to hear everything you know, Nicole Parton about
19:33
Speaker 1: this car found abandoned.
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Speaker 6: We know that the car was a small blue SUV
19:38
Speaker 6: that the car belonged to Veronica. I spoke to an
19:43
Speaker 6: eyewitness last night who says that she was traveling on
19:46
Speaker 6: that same road and passed by and saw the abandoned car.
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Speaker 6: Her story is that at least one of the windows
19:55
Speaker 6: were smashed was broken on that car. Now police have
19:58
Speaker 6: not confirmed that, but the eyewitness said that she saw
20:01
Speaker 6: a window smashed on the car. She also says that
20:05
Speaker 6: she made a nine to one one call to report
20:08
Speaker 6: this abandoned car on the side of the road in
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Speaker 6: this rural area.
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Speaker 2: We know that local.
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Speaker 6: Authorities came out and within hours the local authorities had
20:18
Speaker 6: contacted the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation and asked for assistance.
20:24
Speaker 6: Their latest statement about the car says that based on
20:28
Speaker 6: information obtained from the victim's vehicle, investigators believe they have
20:34
Speaker 6: evidence of foul play all of this surrounding the found car.
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Speaker 1: Time is sticking by, and we all know the reality
20:42
Speaker 1: of missing people, the likelihood of them being alive after
20:46
Speaker 1: the first seventy two hours is very low. Please act,
20:52
Speaker 1: we are looking for the victims of a double disappearance,
20:57
Speaker 1: which is extremely rare to two young mothers on the
21:01
Speaker 1: way to throw a kid's birthday party vanish just three
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Speaker 1: miles before their destination. If you have information one eight
21:10
Speaker 1: hundred five two two eight zero one seven one eight
21:15
Speaker 1: hundred five to two two eight zero one seven you
21:18
Speaker 1: think that because you're a citizen sleuth, you could be
21:22
Speaker 1: wrong or it doesn't matter. Let me remind you about
21:26
Speaker 1: the citizen sleuth that realized she had spotted the van
21:32
Speaker 1: of Gabby Petito. We now know did, but we would
21:36
Speaker 1: never have found her remains. We wouldn't know what had
21:38
Speaker 1: happened to her if it.
21:40
Speaker 2: Had not been for Red Blue.
21:43
Speaker 1: And Methane I believe was their handle online. They spotted
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Speaker 1: Gabby Betito's for transit. They had heard about the story.
21:51
Speaker 1: They immediately called it him. You know where Gabby's remains
21:54
Speaker 1: were in dispersed camping way out west.
21:59
Speaker 2: What is disperse camping?
22:00
Speaker 1: That means there's no porta potty, there's no hookup, there's
22:04
Speaker 1: no parking area or street lights. You're out there with
22:09
Speaker 1: the coyotes and the rabbits and all the creatures that
22:14
Speaker 1: live in the wild West.
22:16
Speaker 2: That's where she was what was left of her.
22:18
Speaker 1: If had not been for a citizen jumping in, we
22:23
Speaker 1: may not know what happened to Gabby, But back to this.
22:27
Speaker 2: Case, two missing moms.
22:30
Speaker 1: Straight back out to Nicole parton Crime Online dot Com
22:33
Speaker 1: investigative reporter Nicole, I want to hear everything you just
22:37
Speaker 1: told us plus more because our biggest clue right now
22:41
Speaker 1: is that abandoned blue suv.
22:44
Speaker 2: We think a Toyota or a Kia.
22:47
Speaker 1: Find it really interesting, Ellie, law enforcement has not put
22:51
Speaker 1: that out there. Maybe someone saw something at a red
22:56
Speaker 1: light or a gas station.
22:58
Speaker 2: I don't know.
22:59
Speaker 1: Maybe they didn't, but maybe they did. I find that
23:02
Speaker 1: really interesting. Was the car running? Were the doors locked?
23:07
Speaker 1: Were the women's cell phones in the car? Were their
23:10
Speaker 1: pocketbooks in the car? Was the birthday cake in the car?
23:16
Speaker 1: Was it on the right side of the road. Was
23:17
Speaker 1: it pulled off the road? Was the hood up showing
23:20
Speaker 1: distress that something's wrong with the engine. All of these
23:24
Speaker 1: questions and more I need answered. But I'm not getting
23:29
Speaker 1: the information from the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation at all.
23:34
Speaker 2: I find that.
23:35
Speaker 1: Curious, and it leads me to wonder, because I've never
23:39
Speaker 1: had a problem with Oklahoma Bureau of Investigation. Ever, why
23:44
Speaker 1: are they not releasing it? What do they know that
23:46
Speaker 1: we don't know back to the car, can you answer
23:50
Speaker 1: any of those questions in cole party.
23:52
Speaker 6: We do know that it was parked on the right
23:55
Speaker 6: side of the road, so as they were driving, the
23:58
Speaker 6: car was just pulled over on the side of the road. Again,
24:01
Speaker 6: we know it was three miles from this four Corners
24:05
Speaker 6: Trading Post, which is the location where they were to
24:08
Speaker 6: meet the grandmother and pick up the children. I am
24:13
Speaker 6: being told by a witness that the hood was not up,
24:16
Speaker 6: There was no signs of car trouble. There was no
24:20
Speaker 6: one seen walking around the car as if trying to
24:23
Speaker 6: put gas in a car or figure out what's wrong
24:25
Speaker 6: with the car. A witness did say, according to them
24:29
Speaker 6: that they saw at least one window smashed out of
24:33
Speaker 6: that car. Those are things that we know. I'm also
24:37
Speaker 6: being told that the last cell phone ping from the ladies,
24:42
Speaker 6: the two mom's phones, were from that location where the
24:46
Speaker 6: car was found. Other than that, we're not being told
24:49
Speaker 6: what was inside the car, personal belongings. We're not being
24:53
Speaker 6: told if they were in the car.
24:55
Speaker 1: Now, one thing I've learned Nicole Parton and again, we're
25:00
Speaker 1: trying to put together the pieces, and we don't have
25:02
Speaker 1: all the pieces of the puzzle. Yet, that's why it's
25:04
Speaker 1: not making sense to us. Another thing I learned is
25:07
Speaker 1: that police let it slip that there was something found
25:12
Speaker 1: in the car that convinced them of foul play.
25:16
Speaker 2: Do you know what it was?
25:17
Speaker 6: I don't know. I do know that within hours of
25:21
Speaker 6: the car being found by local authorities, they did reach
25:25
Speaker 6: out to the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation within hours
25:29
Speaker 6: and said we need help on this case. And again
25:32
Speaker 6: in their latest statement, they said that based on information
25:36
Speaker 6: obtained from the victim's vehicle, that's the wording they used.
25:41
Speaker 6: Investigators believe there is evidence of foul play. They aren't
25:45
Speaker 6: telling us what that evidence is, but something that they
25:49
Speaker 6: found in the vehicle leads them to believe something very
25:52
Speaker 6: bad happened.
25:53
Speaker 1: Okay, there's one positive thing out of all that, John Elwood,
25:56
Speaker 1: Deputy Chief Manitee County Search and Rescue, is that they
25:59
Speaker 1: are calling the women victims. They're not buying into the
26:02
Speaker 1: same old story they're off with their boyfriend, or they
26:06
Speaker 1: wanted a girl's getaway.
26:08
Speaker 2: Bs so interesting.
26:11
Speaker 1: They find something in that vehicle that convinces them a
26:14
Speaker 1: foul plate. Was it blood? Was it one of the
26:18
Speaker 1: ladies or both of the ladies clothing? Was a cell
26:21
Speaker 1: phone cracked? I know the window was broken. So everybody
26:26
Speaker 1: on the panel, we're not having high ta at windsor castle.
26:29
Speaker 1: Jump in if you have an idea, any idea. We're
26:32
Speaker 1: brainstorming here. Was it a bullet, Nancy?
26:36
Speaker 5: Did somebody shoot the vehicle to get them to stop?
26:40
Speaker 1: That's a really good question because we know the window,
26:43
Speaker 1: one of the windows.
26:45
Speaker 2: Was busted out.
26:45
Speaker 1: Hey, Nicole Parton, was it a driver's window passenger front? Back?
26:50
Speaker 6: The windness said that she didn't stop, she kept driving,
26:54
Speaker 6: So it was we would have been on the driver's side,
26:59
Speaker 6: either the front or the back window, but it was
27:01
Speaker 6: on the driver's side because she could easily see the
27:04
Speaker 6: broken window.
27:05
Speaker 1: Okay, that told me a lot right there. So it
27:07
Speaker 1: is on the driver's side. It could easily have benefits
27:11
Speaker 1: a two lane. The only way to pass the car
27:13
Speaker 1: on a two lane is on the driver's side. You're right,
27:18
Speaker 1: Kathleen Murphy. Wasn't a bullet? Is Was that why the
27:22
Speaker 1: glass was smashed out? Guys, we're brainstorming here. We're thinking,
27:28
Speaker 1: we're using the only tools. We've got a little bit
27:30
Speaker 1: of information and a brain trust of all of these
27:33
Speaker 1: guests again the tip line eight hundred and five to
27:36
Speaker 1: two two eight zero one seven. With every minute that
27:39
Speaker 1: ticks by, there is less likelihood of a positive outcome
27:44
Speaker 1: in finding these two missing moms. Back to you, John Elwood,
27:49
Speaker 1: I just learned a lot from Nicole Parton and especially
27:51
Speaker 1: from the witness she managed to track down. There was
27:55
Speaker 1: no indication of car trouble. You know, when a lot
27:59
Speaker 1: of people went out again, they'll open up their gas
28:02
Speaker 1: valve and you can see that it's open, or they'll
28:06
Speaker 1: stick a rag in it, and you know they ran
28:08
Speaker 1: out of gas. And hey, Nicole, do you know when
28:12
Speaker 1: she saw the vehicle, as it relates to when the
28:15
Speaker 1: women went missing, when did she see the vehicle?
28:18
Speaker 6: She saw the vehicle shortly after ten am. She couldn't
28:23
Speaker 6: remember the exact time, but piecing it together, she was
28:25
Speaker 6: saying somewhere between like ten ten and ten twenty in
28:30
Speaker 6: that timeframe.
28:31
Speaker 1: On March thirtieth. On March thirtieth, correct, So is that
28:35
Speaker 1: in the morning?
28:36
Speaker 2: Did you say in the morning?
28:37
Speaker 6: And we were being told by the police that they
28:41
Speaker 6: found the car at ten thirty am, so they were
28:44
Speaker 6: on the scene within minutes of her seeing the vehicle.
28:47
Speaker 1: And question Nicole parton what time did the mom set
28:49
Speaker 1: out for the birthday party.
28:50
Speaker 6: We're being told they left around nine am.
28:52
Speaker 1: Oh, my stars, Dan Corsentino, that is a very tight timeline.
28:59
Speaker 1: They leave, Hey and Nicole. There's not a time change,
29:02
Speaker 1: is there?
29:04
Speaker 2: In one hour?
29:05
Speaker 1: Ding Corsantino, it's over. They leave around nine ish to
29:10
Speaker 1: go for a forty five minute drive to throw the
29:13
Speaker 1: kid's birthday party.
29:15
Speaker 2: By ten o'clock, their car is pulled off the road.
29:20
Speaker 2: We know there wasn't a car crash.
29:23
Speaker 1: We don't think they ran out of gas, they didn't
29:25
Speaker 1: have engine trouble. The window was smashed on the driver's side,
29:31
Speaker 1: and they're gone. That all happened in less than one hour.
29:36
Speaker 12: Dan, absolutely, And there's a number of, as you said
29:39
Speaker 12: so eloquently, pieces of the puzzle. One of the questions
29:42
Speaker 12: that services is was this a car dumped? Possibly the
29:49
Speaker 12: crime alleged crime took place prior to and the suspect
29:56
Speaker 12: wanted to get rid of the vehicle and dumped it.
29:58
Speaker 12: The second option is car jacket, and the car jacket
30:04
Speaker 12: could have taken place at any time in that one
30:07
Speaker 12: hour time period. You know, we mentioned who would be
30:14
Speaker 12: a suspect at one time. We'll talk about that later,
30:17
Speaker 12: but we know these two women were low rist victims,
30:20
Speaker 12: and these two women that were friends would have done
30:26
Speaker 12: everything they could, I believe to try and protect themselves
30:31
Speaker 12: from the threat that came to them.
30:40
Speaker 2: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
30:47
Speaker 1: Straight out to John Elwood Manage County Search and Rescue.
30:51
Speaker 2: Go ahead, John, Nancy.
30:52
Speaker 11: The new information being revealed about the broken window on
30:56
Speaker 11: the driver's side of the vehicle could provide a valuable clue.
31:00
Speaker 11: When glass breaks, especially you figure they're driving at speed,
31:03
Speaker 11: it may fly into the person's face, cutting them. One
31:07
Speaker 11: way you could find out if a person was injured
31:09
Speaker 11: is by the use of a human remains detection canine.
31:12
Speaker 11: That those dogs are trained to alert on the most
31:15
Speaker 11: microscopic amounts of blood. It may not be visible to
31:20
Speaker 11: the naked eye, but the dog would be able to
31:22
Speaker 11: smell that and then show an alert. And then that
31:25
Speaker 11: gives you another piece of the puzzle if the person
31:27
Speaker 11: or person's were injured.
31:29
Speaker 1: Wow, good point, guys, there is another piece of the
31:32
Speaker 1: puzzle we must address. Take a listen to Sidney Sumner
31:37
Speaker 1: Crime Online.
31:38
Speaker 8: Butler's co parenting relationship with her ex wrangler Rickman breaks
31:42
Speaker 8: down in twenty nineteen and custody arrangement shift dramatically. Most recently,
31:46
Speaker 8: Butler's two children are mainly in the care of their
31:49
Speaker 8: paternal grandmother, Tiffany Adams, due to Rickman losing interest in
31:52
Speaker 8: his parenting responsibilities. Rickman is also in the midst of
31:56
Speaker 8: several legal issues. He was charged with two counts of
31:59
Speaker 8: domestic asas and battery in late February. Despite those charges
32:03
Speaker 8: being dismissed. Rickman was last in court March seventh in
32:06
Speaker 8: regards to a fellon in possession of a weapon conviction.
32:09
Speaker 8: He was expected to report for impatient rehab in Oklahoma
32:12
Speaker 8: City on March twenty second for six months of treatment,
32:15
Speaker 8: possibly ruling him out as a suspect in Butler and
32:18
Speaker 8: Kelly's disappearance.
32:19
Speaker 1: Good Lord in Heaven, straight out to you, Kathleen Murphy,
32:23
Speaker 1: a veteran trial lawyer in domestic relations.
32:28
Speaker 2: That was a mouthful from Sidney sun Er. Did you
32:31
Speaker 2: hear all that?
32:32
Speaker 1: All that as it relates to Veronica Butler A twenty
32:35
Speaker 1: seven X. The X is nothing but trouble, Ladies. If
32:41
Speaker 1: you're listening, there's a lot.
32:43
Speaker 2: Of men out there. Don't pick one.
32:47
Speaker 1: Out of all the men that has a rap sheet,
32:51
Speaker 1: just trust me on that.
32:54
Speaker 2: Back to you, Kathleen Murphy, did you hear this?
32:56
Speaker 1: The first The one that got my attention the most
32:59
Speaker 1: is Fellon in possession of a firearm.
33:03
Speaker 2: That means he's already a convicted felon. Then he has
33:06
Speaker 2: a gun. He's not supposed to have a gun.
33:09
Speaker 1: Again, he has not been named a person of interest
33:12
Speaker 1: or a suspect. However, we also have learned he was
33:16
Speaker 1: expected to report for rehab on March twenty two for
33:20
Speaker 1: six months. He could be ruled out just based on this,
33:26
Speaker 1: So okay, all that in mine way in Kathleen.
33:31
Speaker 5: Absolutely, I heard that he is in rehab for six months.
33:35
Speaker 5: I also read that there are other family members on
33:39
Speaker 5: the father's side that may have an interest in stopping
33:42
Speaker 5: some of this visitation.
33:44
Speaker 2: Well, you know what, Kathleen Murphy, let's look at what
33:46
Speaker 2: we know. Nicole Parton.
33:48
Speaker 1: This was an arranged birthday party. The moms were having
33:52
Speaker 1: to drive forty five minutes to get there. They were
33:56
Speaker 1: supposed to meet up with the grandma and the children
33:59
Speaker 1: for the pickup at the trading post at four Corners
34:03
Speaker 1: Trading Post.
34:04
Speaker 2: So this was arranged. Who knew they were going.
34:09
Speaker 1: There, who would have possibly intercepted them? Or was this
34:13
Speaker 1: just some random carjacking or a random attack by some
34:19
Speaker 1: other creepy dude that we don't know.
34:22
Speaker 2: That's less likely, but entirely possible.
34:27
Speaker 1: Nicole, tell me about the setup for the birthday party
34:30
Speaker 1: and would you really take not only the mom and
34:34
Speaker 1: the friend.
34:34
Speaker 6: What we know is that a court order had been
34:38
Speaker 6: signed by a judge and family Court saying that Veronica
34:42
Speaker 6: could have supervised visits with the children. Those were arranged
34:46
Speaker 6: by a judge and Veronica was to travel to this
34:49
Speaker 6: four Corners trading post that was the legal required meeting
34:55
Speaker 6: spot for the pickup of the children. We know that
34:58
Speaker 6: the grandmother was allowed to be there, the grandmother's living
35:02
Speaker 6: boyfriend was allowed to be there, Veronica, and Veronica's friend
35:07
Speaker 6: Jillian is also named in this court document saying that
35:12
Speaker 6: Veronica's friend Jillian is to be there for these supervised visits.
35:17
Speaker 6: So all of those individuals knew about the meeting place.
35:21
Speaker 6: Whether they had told other friends and family members, we
35:24
Speaker 6: don't know, but there is legal document documentation in family
35:28
Speaker 6: court that this was ordered by a judge. This meeting
35:31
Speaker 6: place on these on this date with these people. Involved.
35:35
Speaker 2: Let me ask you something.
35:36
Speaker 1: The grandma was supposed to meet them at four corners
35:39
Speaker 1: trading post. Is that the paternal grandma or the maternal grandma.
35:45
Speaker 2: Is it Veronica's grandma?
35:48
Speaker 6: It is the paternal It is the father's mother, the
35:51
Speaker 6: father of the children, his mother.
35:53
Speaker 2: Two missing moms straight out to Kathleen Murphy.
35:55
Speaker 5: What Kathleen and somebody has a rap sheet that there
35:57
Speaker 5: are sex abuse, sex abuse allegation is made and supervised visitation.
36:02
Speaker 5: I don't understand why the meeting place was not at
36:05
Speaker 5: a police officer station or a police department or more
36:08
Speaker 5: public than this four corners crossroad.
36:11
Speaker 6: That's concerning to me.
36:12
Speaker 1: Dodg Nicole, Vienna joining US forensic psychologist and CEO of
36:17
Speaker 1: Vienna Psychological Group Dodgor Nicole way in Well.
36:21
Speaker 4: I think the custody issue brings up an interesting point
36:24
Speaker 4: to this whole story, because we know that custody arrangements
36:27
Speaker 4: are generally prone to conflict, right, and that's partly because
36:31
Speaker 4: of the high emotions that are involved behind there. The
36:34
Speaker 4: children are usually the last tie between the parents, and
36:37
Speaker 4: so when we see things like prior sexual abuse allegations
36:42
Speaker 4: in the background, we're going to suspect, you know, danger
36:45
Speaker 4: one party's going to be upset with the other and
36:47
Speaker 4: they're going to maybe act in ways that aren't well
36:50
Speaker 4: thought out, reckless and pulsive. And we do know that
36:54
Speaker 4: the ex spouse does have a history of substance abuse. He's,
36:58
Speaker 4: like you mentioned, he is a fella, carries a gun.
37:00
Speaker 4: We know that there was a foul play with the car,
37:03
Speaker 4: So tying it all together, it kind of makes you
37:06
Speaker 4: wonder if the X was concerned for his children, not
37:10
Speaker 4: thinking very clearly and you know, maybe waiting and looking
37:15
Speaker 4: for you know, Mom and Fred to come by, and something,
37:17
Speaker 4: you know, just terrible happened. So I really suspect that this,
37:22
Speaker 4: you know, is due to this custody dispute and the
37:25
Speaker 4: high emotions that are involved and the impulsivity that goes
37:28
Speaker 4: along with people that are involved in these disputes.
37:30
Speaker 1: And of course, John Elwood, Deputy Chief Manity County Search
37:33
Speaker 1: and Rescue, if it looks.
37:34
Speaker 2: Like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck,
37:37
Speaker 2: it is a duck.
37:38
Speaker 1: However, before we throw all the blame on the X,
37:44
Speaker 1: I'm not so sure about that. This needs a lot
37:47
Speaker 1: more investigation because if he was in rehab at the
37:50
Speaker 1: time this went down.
37:52
Speaker 2: It's not him, But I agree with doctor Nicole.
37:55
Speaker 1: That's the first place you look, but John, that's always
38:00
Speaker 1: the first place you look is at the X.
38:02
Speaker 11: Yes, ma'am. You usually have the list of potential suspects,
38:07
Speaker 11: so to speak, or persons of interest. The fact that
38:10
Speaker 11: if they did determine the window was indeed shot out
38:14
Speaker 11: and the former spouse had firearm possessions of a felon.
38:20
Speaker 11: You know, they can also use dogs are trained to
38:22
Speaker 11: do many different tasks. You could bring in a firearms
38:27
Speaker 11: canine that can check for gun residue. You can check
38:31
Speaker 11: for the presence of a firearm, and then you know
38:34
Speaker 11: the wax paraffin test that you can use to check
38:36
Speaker 11: to see if somebody has gunshot residue on their hands
38:39
Speaker 11: or clothing. So I'm sure that there's a lot of
38:42
Speaker 11: pieces that the police and the investigating agencies haven't released
38:46
Speaker 11: that would bring more clarity to the situation.
38:49
Speaker 1: Veronica Butler aged twenty seven, and Jilly and Kelly in
38:53
Speaker 1: her thirties. They're not the only victims between them, they
38:59
Speaker 1: have six children. And my experience prosecuting major felonies, investigating
39:07
Speaker 1: and reporting on them my entire career. There's no replacement
39:12
Speaker 1: for your mother. Six children between them wondering where's Mom.
39:19
Speaker 1: Won't you help us tipline eight hundred five two two
39:24
Speaker 1: eight zero one seven. There's still time to bring them
39:29
Speaker 1: home alive. Let's stop and remember American hero Deputy Sheriff
39:34
Speaker 1: Jeremy Malone shot in the line of duty Beaumont, Michigan.
39:40
Speaker 1: Deputy Sheriff Jeremy Malone leaves behind beautiful wife Hillary and
39:46
Speaker 1: three daughters, Abby, Olivia, and Brooklyn, now serving a life
39:54
Speaker 1: sentence without their dad.
39:58
Speaker 2: We remember American hero Deputy Sheriff Jeremy Malone. Nancy Grace
40:05
Speaker 2: signing off goodbye friend,