Latest / Respec: Video Game Ramblings / The mid generation, the price crisis, and do we even need a PS6 any time soon? | Respec Ramblings

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The mid generation, the price crisis, and do we even need a PS6 any time soon? | Respec Ramblings · Respec: Video Game Ramblings

0:00
Hello, hello, and welcome to another edition
0:03
of the Respec Ramblings podcast with me, Alex
0:06
Donaldson, and I'm joined this week, just the
0:09
two of us, we can make it you and I. So I'm Ori,
0:12
how are you doing, mate? I'm good, yeah, good,
0:14
I thought. Minute, you're introducing yourself
0:16
and a guest, Alex Donaldson. I was like, has
0:19
this, he hasn't had enough sleep. I haven't had
0:23
enough sleep, but that's because there's a lot
0:25
going on. And this is a pre -record. So people
0:30
in the UK will be aware. Our US listeners probably
0:32
completely pass them by. But for most of the
0:35
UK, this week that you're listening, that this
0:38
has been released on, is half term, is the school
0:42
holidays. The kids are off for a week. And so
0:45
although you're off, aren't you, Tom? But I'll
0:49
be about and I'll be working. But my work will
0:53
be a weird combination of... you know, working
0:57
in between being a family man, as Guile would
1:00
say. And also, as we will talk about next week,
1:06
which is why topic -wise this week's a bit funny.
1:09
Unless some major news breaks, and if it does,
1:11
you might hear yours truly popping in with a
1:15
recorded later segment added on into this podcast.
1:19
But unless some major news breaks, it's sort
1:21
of the calm before the storm. except the funny
1:25
thing about being games media is the calm before
1:30
the storm is the storm so if there's if there's
1:32
big games coming out um and a busy release schedule
1:36
or you know just stuff like that or awards like
1:39
you know thinking about our end of year awards
1:41
think about the game awards that obviously is
1:43
busy for end users a little further down the
1:46
line but for us it's busy now um and so yes we
1:50
thought we would especially because we had a
1:53
sort of topic in mind, which was inspired by
1:59
you, Tom, right? Like, you know, you were thinking
2:03
we've sort of been working in separate worlds
2:07
because of what's been going on. I've been sort
2:09
of head down on some ridiculous games and you've
2:14
been doing other bits. And the news about the
2:17
PlayStation. six potential pricing got you thinking
2:21
about this generation um and there's an article
2:24
on the site but why don't you um why don't you
2:27
give your thesis yeah well it feels it always
2:31
feels a bit weird talking about what people are
2:34
going to buy and what people are going to play
2:35
in the future because realistically because we
2:38
write about video games for a living we will
2:41
be playing on the new consoles right so i'm like
2:44
is this a bit hypocritical saying actually you're
2:47
okay keeping your ps5 for another five years
2:49
but i don't i don't think i think it i think
2:53
like is a an issue people will be having to face
2:58
in the next like say xbox is out in two years
3:02
i mean xbox its own problems whether people buy
3:04
that or not but play let's focus on the playstation
3:06
right which will clearly be the main next gen
3:09
console that comes out um if that comes out next
3:13
year or the year after and it has a price of
3:16
let's say 850 quid or something right which it
3:20
might be might be around that figure um who knows
3:23
that is a lot of money right that is essentially
3:26
what you paid for two consoles uh at the start
3:31
of this gen if if not less depending on what
3:33
consoles you bought um and it is not the kind
3:37
of money you just go yeah right i'll buy that
3:39
i'm not going to buy that that is not I'm not
3:41
going to buy that as a present from a child,
3:44
for example, no chance, £850. And the argument
3:50
has been, do you need one of those new consoles?
3:54
Is there going to be a period of prolonged cross
3:58
-gen development? I think the answer is clearly
4:01
going to be yes, because we had it already, right?
4:05
Like we had, I mean, ever since... I think what
4:10
the first generation was, maybe was it PS2 to
4:14
PS3 era was the first one where you had those
4:17
PS2 games launched at the start of the PS3 era.
4:23
I don't know. I mean, it did happen because like
4:25
my favorite Final Fantasy, right? 9 is one that
4:32
came out right at the end of the PS1 generation.
4:37
And that really hurt its sales, right? Quite
4:39
famously. And the same thing happened to Final
4:42
Fantasy XII, where there was that weird thing,
4:44
at least in the West, where Final Fantasy XII,
4:47
which was really advanced and really impressive,
4:49
but it came out at the same time as bloody Oblivion.
4:54
So in terms of the RPG stakes, I think that was
4:57
one of the things that really hurt JRPGs. Japanese
4:59
RPGs for a while was the idea that... They looked
5:02
behind because you looked at Final Fantasy XII
5:04
and then you looked at Oblivion on a technical
5:06
level, what the worlds were and stuff, and you
5:07
went, oh, bloody hell, there's a world apart.
5:09
But obviously they were actually, even though
5:11
they released around the same time, a generation.
5:13
In fact, in the West, XII came out after Oblivion.
5:16
They were a generation apart. Anyway, I digress.
5:18
So it's always happened, but I get what you mean
5:20
in terms of... I guess I'm thinking more like
5:23
at the start when they had 360 carat, for example,
5:25
you had stuff like gun. and Tony Hawk's whatever
5:30
it was and they were cross -gen right like they
5:32
were better on the 360 but they were on the Xbox
5:36
and the PS2 that's true that was really common
5:39
like I think what Need for Speed Most Wanted
5:41
yeah that kind of thing Call of Duty 2 because
5:44
Call of Duty 2 big red one right on the old gen
5:47
and sometimes you get slightly different versions
5:49
but it was like from what I remember at the start
5:51
of this you had a game that was the better version
5:54
was the current gen game and then the last gen
5:57
got and obviously that has increased a lot, particularly
6:01
like PS4 to PS5, we had a lot of games that were
6:06
like cross -gen. The launch of both those new
6:10
consoles, this gen Xbox and PlayStation, were
6:13
mostly cross -gen games. Xbox launched its main
6:18
games very much across both platforms. like years
6:24
went by and you were still getting like big PlayStation
6:26
games on the PS4 like you had Gran Turismo 7
6:29
you had Horizon Forbidden West was on PS4 you
6:33
had most of the big games for a while both God
6:36
of Wars were PS4 games the new the newish God
6:40
of Wars I mean particularly Ragnarok which was
6:42
obviously well into the PS5 but it was still
6:44
a PS4 game so there was a period where you could
6:48
get by fine with the ps4 you're getting a better
6:50
experience on ps5 but it was fine if you didn't
6:53
want to and i think now the way things are and
6:58
the millions of people that own a ps5 and by
7:02
looking at these stories about prices of ps6
7:05
and going well that's an awful lot of money right
7:08
we're talking about most of the stories are americans
7:11
talking about a thousand dollars or whatever
7:12
more potentially for an xbox we don't know what's
7:15
happening with xbox yet really um or playstation
7:18
it's all rumors and speculation and insiders
7:21
knowing bits and pieces but it seems like they're
7:23
going to be expensive right yeah um and that
7:26
makes sense given how much current consoles have
7:28
increased in price and everything else it's hard
7:30
it's unlikely we're going to see a playstation
7:33
6 come out at 450 quid or whatever right it's
7:36
just not happening um so you think well can i
7:41
get by without a playstation 6 and i looked through
7:44
like the games that have come out on the ps5
7:48
over the last six years and it has been six years
7:51
this from next next month that the consoles have
7:54
been out um and i went through them all and looked
7:57
at like games that are on other gens games that
7:59
are on other platforms that could have been ported
8:02
to ps4 whatever and actually good games i came
8:06
out with a list of seven seven games that are
8:08
released by playstation on the ps5 um i like
8:13
give value to that console as as an individual
8:16
console versus everything else Yes. And obviously,
8:19
I didn't look at every single third -party release,
8:23
for example. So there are some big third -party
8:27
games that are only on this gen. They obviously
8:30
add to the value of these consoles. And there's
8:33
situations like Cyberpunk as well, right? Where
8:35
you can play that on a PS4, but my God, you don't
8:38
want to. Yes, yes. I mean, there's stuff like
8:40
that. It's like a classic end of 360 to... PS3
8:47
to PS4 era you got those games like the Far Cries
8:50
that were like terrible because they were pushing
8:52
way too much for what they were on the hardware
8:54
they were on and they came out on their next
8:55
gen and they were much better so there is that
8:58
argument that you are going to get a better experience
9:00
but I think we're at a point now where the games
9:04
we have are like really really quite impressive
9:06
like on the PS5 like supposedly everything we've
9:10
seen so far on GTA is GTA 6 has been running
9:14
on a on a PS5 someone reminded me of that the
9:16
other day that everyone was saying the GTA is
9:18
based PS5 which is insane to me that's an outlier
9:22
in terms of the amount of time and effort and
9:25
money and everything else they put into every
9:26
aspect of it but I mean that is what is that
9:30
console is capable of producing and we've had
9:33
like plenty of great looking games like we just
9:35
had Gears come out on the Xbox and that looks
9:40
great and that's on hardware that is now six
9:43
plus years old in terms of like the actual technology
9:46
in here um so i think there's still life in these
9:51
machines and i think if you're looking at things
9:53
that are gonna like take advantage of the new
9:57
new consoles it'll be things like you get on
9:59
high -end pc games where you get all the ray
10:02
tracing options and the the lighting improves
10:04
everything else and obviously the the stuff that
10:07
goes like frame generation all that kind of stuff
10:09
that you may get a more advanced experience on
10:13
a playstation 6 or a new xbox but are the games
10:16
going to be radically different probably not
10:18
um like i said it's a bit hypocritical because
10:20
i'll be like desperate to get a new console because
10:23
that's my life it's like tech and consoles everything
10:27
else but like and people are already making this
10:31
choice with the switch 2 i guess they're choosing
10:33
a switch 2 which has inferior gate like technology
10:39
based in terms of the visuals and the frame rates
10:41
everything they're not as good as the games on
10:43
playstation 5 etc in terms of the look of them
10:45
they are to be blunt downgraded versions but
10:48
they're still good enough right they're good
10:50
enough games we've seen capcom put out a lot
10:51
of games uh recently that are like good ports
10:55
of these games credit to nintendo i've noticed
10:57
some really nice quite tasty aggressive marketing
11:01
um when i went to the cinema to see street fighter
11:05
there was a switch to um There were a couple
11:09
of Switch 2 trailers in front of Street Fighter
11:12
in the cinema. And one of them was just, look
11:15
how fucking good Call of Duty looks. Look how
11:17
close it is. You can play online. It all works.
11:20
It shows people using the mouse controls for
11:22
online. And I was like, huh. We haven't seen
11:25
Nintendo make this sort of move before. And,
11:28
you know, you speak of Nintendo, it's like, I
11:30
always think of, it was around the GameCube era.
11:34
I think, maybe. Where Hiroshi Yamauchi, you know,
11:40
the big old boss with the big glasses. I don't
11:44
remember the timing, but it was definitely him
11:47
who said it. I'm looking at when he died. Yeah,
11:50
he was definitely alive for that whole GameCube
11:52
era. So it must have been then. But he sort of
11:55
described, oh, we're reaching the point of diminishing
11:58
returns. Well, you are right. You can get more
12:00
powerful. I mean, God knows. I've got a 5090
12:03
in my PC and I love it. But what I'm actually
12:06
getting out of that. extra is much less than
12:11
it was before and you can get by i mean do not
12:13
forget there will be a xbox series s version
12:18
of gta 6 i mean we'll see how it well it runs
12:21
but if it's respectable it'll be a perfectly
12:24
respectable if a bit grainy way to play that
12:28
game i want to zoom out for just a second here
12:31
and just like because not everyone maybe follows
12:33
this as closely as we do and so i think it's
12:35
a great time in the light of this topic to briefly
12:39
talk about what's happening. So let's look at
12:43
it this way, right? And we'll talk about this
12:45
in US dollars, but it's broadly the same all
12:48
over the world. Let's look at Xbox. When the
12:52
original Xbox released in 2001, it was $299.
12:55
By the time it was heading towards retirement,
12:58
you could get an Xbox for $150. So the price
13:01
halved. Xbox 360, when it released, the cheapest
13:06
one, the core without the hard drive, was $299.
13:09
By the time the Xbox 360 was moving towards retirement,
13:12
you could get one for $200. That was with a hard
13:14
drive as well. Xbox One, it was $400 at launch.
13:20
And by the time it was on its way to retirement,
13:24
it was $300. Now that one's a bit of a funny
13:26
one because all the launch Xbox Ones came with
13:29
Kinect. Then they cut that out, which was a saving
13:32
for them. But nevertheless, the price dropped
13:33
by $100. Xbox Series S. which is the weaker one,
13:38
which spec -wise is only a half step up from
13:42
the Xbox One, launched at $299 and is now $500.
13:48
Xbox Series X launched at $500 and is now $800.
13:56
So that's sort of where Xbox has gone, and it's
13:59
broadly the same for everywhere and everyone,
14:01
PlayStation, whatever. How has this happened?
14:05
Why has this happened? I mean, basically, there's
14:08
all this AI data center demand. That's the big
14:11
driver. That's caused demand for high bandwidth
14:15
memory and high capacity flash storage and all
14:19
this sort of nonsense. But actually, those data
14:21
centers aren't necessarily using the same tech
14:24
that goes in your console, with the exception
14:27
of GPU chips, which even then is not the same
14:31
because the GPU chips that go in all the consoles,
14:34
except for the Switch, are all AMD. And most
14:37
of the AI data centers, NVIDIA is the gold standard.
14:41
But nevertheless, the thing that's happened is
14:43
a lot of the manufacturers like Samsung, SK Hynix,
14:47
Micron, et cetera, because of the amount of enterprise,
14:53
I guess you would call it, like company, business
14:55
to business demand, they've shifted all their
14:58
manufacturing capacity away from consumer devices
15:01
over to the stuff they can sell. enterprise to
15:05
anthropic to microsoft to meta whoever is in
15:09
on this amazon um and that means there's less
15:13
consumer stuff and then from edge just simple
15:15
supply economic supply demand right um so all
15:18
this has pushed the prices up and i think the
15:21
big question is what's the timeline like on this
15:24
and short of a full and complete and catastrophic
15:29
ai market crash which mark my words A lot of
15:34
people will hear that and go, yeah, that's what
15:36
we want. If that happens, it will be catastrophic.
15:39
Catastrophic is the word. The damage it will
15:41
do to the world economy. I'm no great AI fan,
15:45
and I do think it's going to come down from where
15:48
it is now in the same way that things like crypto
15:50
did and stuff like that. But if it's an outright
15:53
crash, when I see some of these sales figures
15:57
for some of these companies, as in where they're
15:59
losing billions and billions of dollars. And
16:01
it does look a lot like a bubble's about to burst.
16:03
And if a bubble's about to burst, it'll be as
16:05
bad as if not worse than the dot -com bubble,
16:07
which was bad. And it'll be far more wide -reaching
16:11
than the dot -com bubble was. And if that happens,
16:15
that'll be harmful in a different way. But even
16:19
if it just slowly sort of ebbs off, a lot of
16:23
industry analysts, and I'm not talking about
16:25
games industry analysts, but more broad than
16:28
that, technology, broader... broader market analysis
16:32
they don't expect any meaningful like normalization
16:38
of the prices of memory and various other components
16:41
until somewhere between 2027 and 2030 and the
16:47
belief is that it will be the back end of that
16:50
and so if you're looking at playstation they're
16:53
like yeah we're going to launch console in the
16:54
next 18 months that means it's going to launch
16:57
in amongst all of this And I just don't know
17:03
where it goes. And so the article that you wrote
17:08
sort of posits, I guess, and it's a theory that
17:10
I do agree with, which is basically I'm going
17:12
to say it in a much less charitable way than
17:14
you. I think this generation has been kind of
17:16
mid in terms of exclusive reasons to buy these
17:21
new consoles. And when I count exclusive, obviously
17:23
you had found seven PlayStation 5 games released
17:27
by Sony that give value. to own in a PS5. And
17:31
those were, as you said, those were Returnal,
17:34
Ratchet, Rift Apart, Spider -Man 2, Astro Bot,
17:38
Death Stranding 2, Ghost of Yotei, Saros. But
17:41
also, even if we add to that things like, that
17:44
is the only way to reasonably pay Cyberpunk.
17:47
Or was. Pretty good Switch 2 version now, runs
17:50
on Steam Deck. You know, there's a lot of, will
17:52
run on an older PC now. But the point is, Even
17:57
if you start adding stuff like that in, I don't
17:59
think it's been a terribly compelling console
18:04
generation. And so if it goes on a little bit
18:06
longer, but also what are we chasing here? I
18:11
had this conversation briefly with a friend of
18:13
the pod, Chris String. Maybe we'll try and get
18:15
Dringo on to talk a little about this, in fact.
18:19
But he and I were just chatting over what's up
18:20
about it. And we were talking about this exact
18:22
Sony thing. And that was because... And part
18:25
of the story, part of what inspired you to write
18:27
what you wrote was there was a note from a leaker
18:31
that basically, who was apparently familiar with
18:35
the specs, that the PS6 storage and RAM would
18:39
be about 680 bucks, like raw cost to Sony wholesale
18:44
cost. Then you've got to build it into the machine.
18:47
You've got to buy the rest of the machine. You've
18:49
got to do the fabrication of the case, all that
18:51
sort of stuff. So the suggestion is. you would
18:54
be looking at at least $1 ,000 just off the bat.
18:58
And as James, who, you know, is often on this
19:01
pod, said on Blue Sky, he was like, he posted
19:03
that Homer Simpson meme of like, you know, and
19:05
Bart goes, this is the worst day of my life.
19:07
And Homer goes, the worst day of your life so
19:10
far. He posted that meme saying, you know, the
19:14
league says it's going to cost $680. It's going
19:18
to cost $680 right now. So far. Six months, it
19:24
might be 800. And it probably will be. And so
19:29
I guess your argument, which I sort of support,
19:33
is, and the question, be curious for listeners
19:36
of the pod what their thoughts are, is like,
19:38
do we need a PS6 at all right now? Or would we
19:44
be content to stick where we are? Like, I think...
19:47
I think if they really wanted, I mean, the situation
19:50
is different for Microsoft, needless to say,
19:53
because they're in a really bad market position.
19:55
But if you told me that the current hardware
19:58
was going to stick until 2029, 2030, maybe with
20:03
a refresh for Switch 2, like, you know, we all
20:05
want a Switch 2 with an OLED screen, stuff like
20:08
that. I'd accept something like that. But if
20:10
we're going to say we're not going to have any
20:11
new generation until then, I would be totally
20:15
content with that. Yeah. I mean, I think we're
20:19
already like, if you look at like how games are
20:22
developed and stuff, and you should get the high
20:23
end PC version, that game still exists on current
20:27
consoles. You just get the advanced stuff that
20:30
you can't get running as well on a PlayStation
20:32
5. So it's tricky because I'm like, I get excited
20:38
about new consoles, right? It's a new exciting
20:40
thing that's happening. But at the same time,
20:42
you can't look at it now and go, well, realistically.
20:46
you should buy this thing we haven't seen them
20:49
who knows what they're going to offer but broadly
20:52
it'll be better looking versions of the games
20:54
are already playing most likely maybe with a
20:57
splash of an exclusive from playstation or something
21:00
perhaps like i'd be surprised if there isn't
21:02
at least one game that is just only on the ps6
21:05
for example well so i will interrupt you and
21:07
say i know of a game that as the at least the
21:15
last I spoke to someone about it, which was about
21:17
six months, was being developed by a studio as
21:20
a PlayStation 6 exclusive. And I presume probably
21:25
would have been the tentpole PS6 game. Based
21:31
on what the development timeline on that game
21:33
was meant to be, you either delay that game or
21:36
you make that game cross -gen at this point,
21:37
I think. Hmm. Crap for the wrap of three, is
21:41
it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's just, it's,
21:47
it's, it's such a terrible, I don't know if there
21:50
is a correct, like best path forward for, for
21:54
these companies at the moment, because it's like
21:56
people say, I'll just delay it, delay it, whatever,
21:58
and wait until things are cheaper. But these
22:02
things are like the consoles are designed, right?
22:04
I imagine at this point, like, I don't know the
22:07
ins and outs of it, but if they, if they release
22:09
something later, it will come in. If it's the
22:11
same spec as it is going to be now, it'd be.
22:14
less exciting as a product because it would be
22:17
a year or two later down the line and things
22:19
would have moved on. So is it better just to
22:21
put it out there at a ridiculous price and just
22:23
sell it to people that want it at that price
22:26
and hope things get cheaper? I mean, the flip
22:28
side is though, because usually you're rating
22:30
against PC, right? So, yeah. So the argument
22:34
is if you design a machine to be released in
22:36
2028 and then you actually push it to 2029, 2030,
22:39
then... By the time it comes out, there will
22:43
have been a new generation of PC GPUs that make
22:47
it look... And even this gen, I think the irony
22:49
was the way this generation rolled out, it was,
22:53
I think, far quicker than usual that the PC GPUs
22:59
began to not just outstrip the consoles, but
23:02
actually just embarrass them. I feel like it
23:04
took a much shorter time on this cycle than it
23:07
did previously. Part of that was driven by...
23:10
the leaps and bounds Nvidia was able to achieve
23:12
with DLSS and tools like that, which in part
23:16
was driven by the need, the desire to have more
23:20
compute for AI, right? It was on those things
23:22
of the way they were improving graphics cards
23:25
for AI meant that they were getting better for
23:28
games as well. And look no further recently than
23:30
the example of DLSS 5, which whatever you think
23:33
of that technology and how valid it is and all
23:37
the rest. They showed that off in January at
23:40
CES. No, it was GTC, wasn't it? They showed it
23:45
off around March time, around GDC and GTC, Graphics
23:48
Conference time. No, I can't remember the exact
23:53
time. Anyway, no, it was CES, I think. They showed
23:56
it off in... Whenever they showed DLSS 5 off,
23:59
whenever it was, we go without research, we do
24:03
it live. Whenever they showed DLSS 5 off, it
24:06
was... There was all that bloody, all those Resident
24:09
Evil screenshots, stuff like that. But nevertheless,
24:11
there was like the kernel of something potentially
24:13
impressive there. But also they were like, oh
24:16
yeah, this is running on multiple 5090s. So thousands
24:20
and thousands of pounds of graphics cards all
24:22
allied up to each other in an array. And then
24:25
come March at GDC, I sat down, no, come Gamescom.
24:28
Yeah, it was GDC and Gamescom. Come Gamescom,
24:31
they... I went into a room and they were like,
24:34
we've got this. Not only have we got this running
24:36
on a single 5090, we even got a version that
24:39
runs on a single 5060, which in sensible times
24:43
is like a $500 graphics card, not so much anymore.
24:47
And so anyway, what I'm saying is that the rate
24:49
of iteration and improvement is way bigger now.
24:52
And so I think we are... That's a bigger danger,
24:59
the idea of if you delay the console, it'll be
25:02
outstripped because the PC tech has been moving
25:05
so fast. However, even the PC market now is having
25:08
insane arrested development. We're in a world
25:11
where NVIDIA reissued the previous generation
25:14
of graphics cards. So they bought 30 series GPUs
25:18
back because they couldn't make 40s or 50s in
25:20
the quantities they needed because of the component
25:23
shortage. We're in a world where just this last
25:26
week, I downclocked my 50 -90 to keep the temperatures
25:29
down, to keep the strain off the card when playing
25:31
games now. Because it sounds like in January,
25:34
they're discontinuing the 50 -90. Because they
25:37
can't afford, well, they can afford to keep making
25:41
them. They can afford to do whatever they want.
25:42
Jensen can do whatever he wants with all the
25:45
will in the world. But, you know, there's better
25:48
margins for them on doing all this. Again, back
25:50
to what I was saying earlier, all this enterprise
25:51
stuff. So they're actively discontinuing graphics
25:54
cards. Apparently the 5080 16 gig is going as
25:56
well, which means they'll only be the more expensive,
25:59
higher memory version of the 5080 on the market.
26:02
So here I am downclocking my graphics card out
26:05
of fear to try and make sure it lives for the
26:08
four, five, six years, however long it needs
26:09
to live for. So the world has changed there a
26:13
little bit where maybe you can just delay the
26:15
console because is the PC market going to be
26:17
moving forward in the same way? I think at least
26:20
as far as gaming consumers go. AMD and NVIDIA
26:24
are going to be focused on firmware updates,
26:26
driver updates that are going to deliver better
26:29
results with the Tensor cores and DLSS and all
26:33
those sorts of, and FSR and all that sort of
26:36
tech. As opposed to going, here's a whole new
26:40
graphics card. Again, there was supposed to be
26:42
a 50. Usually NVIDIA does a mid -generation refresh.
26:45
This has been called different things over the
26:47
years. Most recently, they've typically been
26:50
called super. So you'd have the 5080 and then
26:52
a year and a half, two years later, you'd get
26:54
the 5080 super. And then a year and a half, two
26:56
years after that, you'd get the 60 series. But
26:59
all the rumors seem to indicate that the 50 super
27:03
series was put on ice because of all the disaster.
27:08
But not disaster, they're loving it because they're
27:09
making money hand over fist, but disaster for
27:11
us. And so the question is, do those still come
27:15
out? So maybe there's a gap in the market there.
27:18
But also, absence makes the heart go fronder,
27:20
right? It will be a real event, a PS6, if it's
27:24
a bit longer. The way to look at it, I guess,
27:28
from the company side is if they wait two even
27:33
longer years, you'd get to the point where you're
27:35
seeing games pushing things too much and you
27:39
want that upgrade more, I guess. um like the
27:42
end of 360 era when things were super ropey a
27:45
lot of the time because it was just they couldn't
27:48
cope with what they're trying to do on those
27:49
machines um but yeah it's just it's a it's going
27:53
to be a hard time i would say for launching anything
27:58
like if you've got if you can get what you can
28:02
now like a particularly a switch to probably
28:04
but like i've seen some great deals on switch
28:06
to i saw what seen one for 330 quid brand new
28:09
but it seems like a price that is not going to
28:12
be for long and that could see you through for
28:16
like a whole generation pretty much right like
28:19
we're gonna it's gonna who knows how that's gonna
28:22
be coping in five years time but probably fine
28:24
and you'll get all the nintendo stuff nintendo
28:28
push out a lot of games like it's not like you're
28:30
gonna be lacking of things to do even if you
28:33
just use it just as a nintendo but also how things
28:35
like cyberpunk or call of duty run dragon's dogma
28:38
all this stuff is indicative also of I don't
28:43
think we're going to quite hit in the same way
28:45
that world where we're getting really, really
28:52
ropey games towards the end of the gen because
28:57
of the legwork that some of these frame gen tools
29:01
can do, which is really evident in something
29:04
like Dragon's Dogma on Switch. So I don't know.
29:09
I definitely think maybe we just need to push
29:12
the gen. And also, you know, we're in a great
29:16
retro revival. Like, it's a great time to pick
29:21
up a retro console and a flash cart. Naughty,
29:24
but nevertheless. Or, you know, play some more
29:29
indie games. Evercade, brilliant. Yeah, Analog
29:32
have just recently released like a refresh of
29:35
their Super Nintendo and their Mega Drive. um
29:38
it's a great time to be into retro games that's
29:41
the other thing i think there can be a joy it's
29:45
a funny difference um between games and and music
29:51
where the there's the famous like statistical
29:54
statistically proven thing where like musical
29:57
taste for most people tends to arrest in their
30:00
20s and then they tend to just listen to the
30:01
same stuff for the rest of their life maybe a
30:03
new album gets added here and there That doesn't
30:06
happen with games. Games are more like movies
30:07
where people are constantly watching and experiencing
30:10
the new thing. But maybe there's an argument
30:13
for going back and experiencing stuff, bunkering
30:18
down while all this nonsense is going on. We'd
30:22
love to know what you think of all this. If there
30:24
was a PS6 next year and a new Xbox, would you
30:28
buy it? Or would you be more inclined to wait?
30:33
And if they decided to not release it and push
30:35
it, how would you feel about that? Would you
30:37
be on board for that or would you be upset at
30:40
the idea you're desperate for new hardware already?
30:43
I think the equation inevitably is a bit different
30:46
for Xbox, but I've got a theory about Microsoft
30:48
and Xbox right now about Asher's new era that
30:51
I've been, it's been percolating in my brain,
30:54
which is I think their belief is that the future
30:59
of Xbox is in the browser. That's my guess. And
31:06
that's obviously, you know, xCloud and game streaming
31:10
and all that sort of stuff. I think that's where
31:13
they want it all to be. And I think the new console
31:16
will only almost exist as one, a North Star for
31:21
developers, two, the technology that will actually
31:25
power the servers but on an enterprise scale.
31:32
which is different costs and stuff. And then
31:35
three, you know, they release it at a very high
31:37
price to the hardcore almost in order to be able
31:41
to say that they're still in the physical, traditional
31:43
console business. But I think they expect most
31:47
people to buy a cheap streaming stick to play
31:52
on the Xbox app on their Samsung TV or their
31:55
Google phone or whatever. That's where I think
31:58
they are going as a business, where the argument...
32:01
might be we don't need to sell 100 million consoles
32:04
we're quite content to sell 10 million 15 20
32:07
million 25 million or whatever we're quite content
32:10
to sell that to our hardcore who want to own
32:13
a box but actually we a lot of call of duty players
32:17
will just be syncing a controller maybe they
32:19
go back to the xbox um one era thing where they
32:23
were going to do a like a fire stick style device
32:25
that has the xbox os on it that's designed for
32:28
game streaming but also everyone's Netflix and
32:30
stuff. That's where I think they're going. So
32:33
I think the equation is different for them where
32:36
they can just launch a super powerful, super
32:38
expensive console next year and go, if you can't
32:41
afford $1 ,500, sign up for the top two of xCloud
32:45
and you get games streamed at the quality that
32:48
they play on that new machine. I think that's
32:51
their path. But for Sony... And Nintendo, but
32:55
more so Sony, because Nintendo at least has got
32:57
a new console out there. I think they're happy
32:58
with the power level and stuff. And I think certainly
33:01
looking at stuff like Zelda and things like that,
33:03
you can see that they are, that it's working
33:06
for them in terms of the power level and what
33:09
their games look like and run like. But for Sony,
33:12
Sony seem all the noises their executives make
33:14
to be keen to keep the traditional console status
33:18
quo going. And that's where the challenge is
33:22
right now in this market. The other thing I'll
33:23
say is game development times have stretched,
33:27
right? It used to take two, three years to make
33:29
a game, to make like a, say a Final Fantasy game.
33:32
You could knock one of those out in two years,
33:35
two and a half years, three years maybe at the
33:37
outside. Now it takes six, seven years to build
33:41
one of those. And what's funny is the, so the
33:44
game development timelines have elongated. But
33:47
the console life cycles haven't elongated. And
33:50
I think that's how you end up in a situation
33:52
where you go, how come there's only seven first
33:54
party PS5 exclusives? When at the same point
33:57
in the PS4's lifetime, there were more. And at
33:59
the same point in the PS3's lifetime, there were
34:01
even more than that. And that's because the console
34:04
life cycles haven't inflated alongside the development
34:08
life cycles. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I don't
34:13
know. Well, old games are good. So that is always
34:16
an option. And on that topic, we'll take a quick
34:21
look at the Retro Respective after this very
34:25
quick break. And we are back with Retro Respective.
34:32
We'll see. Did that insert an ad for you? This
34:34
is something that's going to be happening. Maybe
34:36
it didn't. If you're a patron, you won't have
34:38
heard an ad. You would have just heard us stop
34:41
and then start again half a second later. One
34:44
of the benefits of Patreon, you don't have to
34:46
listen to the ads. And... When we introduce the
34:49
ads, it makes us sound deranged. But we're back
34:52
to just think about what happened on this day
34:55
years ago. And because we're getting into this
34:56
end of the year, there's some good ass games
35:00
this week that I'm sure you are going to have
35:03
some memory of, Tom. So let's just run down in
35:10
a relatively random order. I'm going to jump
35:12
all over the place. Pikmin is 20. What did you
35:15
make of Pikmin back in the day? I think I kind
35:20
of liked it. I'm pretty sure I imported it from
35:24
Canada because I used to get all my games from
35:27
the Canadian shop, Video Games Plus or something
35:31
like that. And I'm not a huge Pikmin fan, but
35:36
I kind of used to play quite a lot of RTS. And
35:41
this is like an easy way to get sort of that.
35:44
I know it's not really the same, but it's similar
35:46
enough. And I like it enough. I'm not desperate,
35:52
like some people are, for the next one to be
35:54
announced or everything else or new Pikmin all
35:56
the time. But it's fine. I like it enough. I'll
36:00
play another one at some point. I've got to correct
36:03
myself. It's actually 25. My God. I thought 20
36:07
sounded a bit... I put it in my head, like, where
36:09
was I at this point? And it does sound like that.
36:13
That makes me feel ancient. I just looked at
36:15
the name and assumed it was 20 and then I was
36:16
quickly like, is it? I think Pikmin's fine, but
36:22
my whole thing with Pikmin is I always get annoyed
36:24
anytime I go to Japan or whatever and go to the
36:27
Nintendo store, or the ones in the US, because
36:30
there is a disproportionately large amount of
36:33
Pikmin merch. I think there's just something,
36:37
there are people at Nintendo who hold a lot of
36:39
power and hold a lot of the keys, who clearly
36:41
absolutely chuff in love. I think it's very merchable,
36:45
isn't it? Because it's got the cuteness. It is,
36:48
but I think a lot of it is just about the certain
36:51
guys, Miyamoto included, who really, really like
36:54
Pikmin. And so they just sort of squeeze it in
36:58
everywhere. I feel like it needs a complete redo,
37:02
like a reimagining of what Pikmin is. Because
37:05
it feels like, I know they've changed over the
37:08
years, but it does feel a bit like it's just
37:11
another Pikmin every time. but yeah like i know
37:16
people want that some people just want it to
37:17
be more pikmin but like i could i could go for
37:20
like a full -on like keep the whole premise of
37:23
what they are and everything but rethink how
37:25
that actually works yeah pikmin game from the
37:27
pikmin's perspective perhaps as in what i mean
37:29
is you're sort of playing in pikmin society as
37:32
opposed to being olimar or whatever the other
37:35
dude's name is yeah um yeah so pikmin is 25 um
37:41
What else have we got? Same released in the same
37:46
week at that same time. Civilization 3. Good
37:50
one. Not my favorite, but a good one. Crash Bandicoot,
37:54
The Wrath of Cortex. Was that the first one that
37:57
was post Naughty Dog? Or was there one before
38:01
that? I feel like that was the first post Naughty
38:03
Dog. It may well have been. I feel like... That
38:06
was Traveller's Tales. So they are... well these
38:11
days lego star wars fame i always think of them
38:15
as the sonic 3d blast developers of course um
38:19
because i'm a man of of course yeah um that's
38:22
the one that my um this shows the slight age
38:27
difference between me and her which isn't that
38:28
it's only a few years but shows how quickly gaming
38:31
moved back then of like when they did that crash
38:33
trilogy i bought it and i was like oh you you
38:36
you mentioned how you because she doesn't really
38:38
play games You mentioned how you used to play
38:40
Crash. Here's the old ones. You can replay. And
38:42
it turned out, she's like, these aren't the ones
38:44
I remember. And it turned out her memory was
38:46
of this one and not of 1, 2, and 3. But I actually
38:51
remember that being quite good. Similarly, GTA
38:56
Vice City Stories feels appropriate to mention.
38:59
That is also 25. And obviously, we are about
39:02
to go back to Vice City for the third time. Fourth
39:08
time. Because Vice Citizen GTA 1, people tend
39:12
to forget that. But the levels in GTA 1 are Liberty,
39:15
Vice, and not San Andreas, whatever. Los Santos.
39:22
Yeah. So I don't really remember that. It's the
39:27
PSP one. It's the PSP one. And you play as Lance's
39:32
dad, don't you? I remember thinking it was impressive.
39:39
But I don't know if I liked it particularly.
39:42
There's probably a review by me somewhere on
39:43
the internet saying it's the greatest thing ever.
39:45
I can't remember what I wrote. See, I don't really
39:47
remember this one. I just remember Liberty City
39:51
stories more. But the one thing I remember about
39:53
this that I liked is that the protagonist of
39:56
this game is a guy who is a random... We're not
40:02
random. He is a specific person, but he's an
40:04
NPC who gets gunned down in the first 60 seconds
40:07
of the main Vice City, which I always thought,
40:09
I always like things like that. Because if you
40:12
play them the other way around, that's got to
40:14
be a shocker going into Vice City and seeing
40:16
the guy you've just spent 40 hours with get popped.
40:20
What else have we got? Some stuff turns 20. We've
40:28
got, oh. Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 3, 25. Last truly
40:33
good one, really, in my opinion. I do think 2
40:37
is probably better. Need for Speed Carbon is
40:42
20. Yeah, I think that's where I fell off. Oh,
40:46
really? Need for Speed, to a degree. I don't
40:48
think I got on board with that particularly.
40:50
I much preferred the earlier, most wanted and
40:55
stuff, probably. It was Carbon after Underground.
40:59
Carbon was, as I recall, one of those games that
41:03
you mentioned earlier where it was on PS2, but
41:09
it was a 360 and the 360 version was far better.
41:12
And yeah, this would have been a couple of years
41:14
after Underground. This would have been after
41:18
Underground 2, I think even. But I just remember
41:21
this game was like a staple. You know, this is
41:24
the exact period in which I worked in game. And
41:27
this was one of the things you sold the most
41:29
copies of. Need for Speed was so big. Like, it
41:32
was a massive thing. It was Christmas number
41:33
one every year in the UK. Yeah. Which feels weird
41:37
to think about a racing game as Christmas number
41:39
one. But that was the thing. Another thing that's
41:43
essentially been destroyed by Electronic Arts.
41:47
Which, you know, the less said about the last
41:49
few weeks on that, the better. Actually, on this
41:51
topic, also this week, Burnout 25. Yeah. I like...
41:57
I mean, Burnout, like, it's one of those games
42:01
that I didn't, like, I liked it enough, but really
42:04
Burnout was like, the later games were so much
42:07
better that it's hard to think back to the first
42:10
one particularly because my memory is basically
42:12
Burnout 3 as being, like, so good. Oh, well,
42:15
that one is the source, but I just remember Burnout,
42:18
I don't remember Burnout 2 at all, but I just
42:20
remember Burnout 1 had an art, because Burnout
42:22
3 went a bit more gritty and grainy in the art
42:25
style in the presentation. Burnout 1, everything
42:27
was very smooth. And I remember it was a game
42:31
that the magazines hyped up so much. I bought
42:35
it on GameCube. It will still be there on that
42:37
shelf somewhere. And it was like, this is one
42:40
of the graphic showcases for the GameCube. And
42:42
I do remember being dead, dead impressed with
42:47
it. God, it's a week for it, actually. I'm looking
42:51
at this list because obviously Burnout, that's
42:53
another thing that is... has been ea'd out of
42:56
existence and on the same topic neverwinter nights
42:59
2 is 30 years old this week so that was obviously
43:03
a a truly fabulous game by a little studio called
43:08
obsidian entertainment but of course it was a
43:12
sequel to neverwinter nights which was developed
43:14
by another little company called bioware So,
43:18
I mean, that's a game that's just connected to
43:21
tragedy all around, although at least Obsidian
43:22
still exists, even if their primary existence
43:24
now does seem to be as Bethesda's dog's body.
43:30
A handful of others. I told you there's a lot
43:33
because we're getting into this. This section
43:34
is going to get longer this time of year. Blood
43:37
Omen, Legacy of Kain, 30 years old. Good. Final
43:41
Fantasy Type -0, original PSP release, 15 years
43:45
old. Of course, didn't come out in the West,
43:46
but then they did. a hd remaster that had some
43:51
of the worst motion blur i've ever experienced
43:53
in my life that was a game i actually was down
43:56
to review on rpg site and i handed it off to
43:58
a different person because the motion blur on
44:01
the camera was making me feel so sick um which
44:04
is a shame because the game itself is sort of
44:07
all right um some more recent ones marvel's guardians
44:10
the galaxy is five great games haven't played
44:13
it the sort of thing that You can, on a Steam
44:16
sale, usually get this super cheap now. Switch
44:18
2 port now, isn't there, as well? Oh, yeah, the
44:20
Switch 2 port. Yeah, they added some stuff. That
44:22
game's really nice. I'd quite like to replay
44:24
that, I think. Is it out, the Switch 2 version?
44:28
I can't remember if they released it or just
44:29
announced it. No, I think it was just announced.
44:31
Yeah, it must be soon, I guess. I hope that finds
44:33
an audience on Switch 2. That was good. That
44:35
was the one of the Square Enix Marvel games that
44:38
was good. Donkey Kong Country 3, 30 years old.
44:43
I don't really like that one. I like 1 and 2.
44:46
I just don't like... I just don't like Kitty
44:49
Kong. Stupid character. Twisted Metal 2 is 30.
44:56
Titanfall 2 is 10. One of the best shooter campaigns
45:00
of all time. It's the classic. It's on sale for
45:04
£3. Everyone should buy it game. Every week it
45:06
seems to be on sale for like basically nothing.
45:08
Yeah, it's good. And then just a shout out to...
45:14
towards the end of the week the 1st of November
45:17
15 years ago which had a pretty good one -two
45:21
punch I think if you could go to a game shop
45:23
and buy both of those which was they had Uncharted
45:26
3 Drake's Deception which I don't know how you
45:31
feel Tom but for me it's actually probably my
45:35
second least favourite Uncharted game yeah I
45:39
don't I don't love it like I think it got a lot
45:42
of it was one of the Games I remember being one
45:46
of the first times, when I was in media at least,
45:49
where a game was a huge, shocking disappointment.
45:53
It got everyone expected amazingness and it was
45:57
just sort of decent. And I think that caused
46:00
a lot of negativity because it wasn't up to the
46:03
second one, obviously. I would say 2, 4, 3, 1
46:08
would be my Uncharted ranking. 3 sort of loses
46:14
me in a big way. I do like that they stole the
46:17
set piece from the living daylights. One of the
46:19
best Bond movies, um, with the ship and with
46:22
the plane and the plane and the cargo net. Cause
46:25
they literally just, they just robbed that from
46:27
that film, which is fair enough. Um, cause it's
46:30
a good film. Uh, and one of my favorite Bond
46:33
films. Um, and I liked the bar fight at the start.
46:38
That was fun. Um, And the second best Uncharted
46:43
game, actually, if you're a fan of these games,
46:46
you should go and play, which is a game that
46:47
came out this year called 007 First Life. I would
46:51
actually say I think it's better than Uncharted
46:52
4 and I would put it up there with Uncharted
46:54
2, but it doesn't have the... Obviously, Uncharted
46:58
2 has the wow factor of... The number of times
47:01
I played that level of Uncharted 2 where... it's
47:06
like the, is it a Middle Eastern marketplace
47:09
and you're up on the rooftops and there's the
47:10
helicopter and I think a building collapses and
47:14
you slide through the building as it collapses
47:16
as I recall. The number of times I played that
47:18
demo for other people, I put it on and played
47:22
it to show a mate who only owned an Xbox how
47:26
amazing it was. It was countless. I must have
47:30
played like that one 15 minute section of it.
47:32
I did that with the opening of God of War 3.
47:36
multiple times that's the sign of a good game
47:39
and the same day um sonic generations which i
47:45
consider to be the start of the moment that sega
47:47
started to turn sonic around um don't get me
47:51
wrong you know i think they still there's a lovely
47:53
charm to what was that most recent one called
47:56
sonic frontiers oh god um i didn't love frontiers
48:02
it's back in the day on video general seven the
48:06
year it came out we gave it the alternate game
48:10
award for the best game that is nevertheless
48:13
slightly crap and that was frontiers in a nutshell
48:18
where it was actually it was kind of a bit shit
48:20
but somehow it clicked and it worked i'm not
48:28
sure i want i'm curious what they're doing next
48:29
because i definitely don't just want more of
48:31
that i just want them to take like the bones
48:35
of frontiers and use those bones to make, hear
48:40
me out now, just another Sonic Adventure game.
48:43
Yeah. I want the adventure stages and all that.
48:45
I think most people want that. I think if that
48:47
is like, if they could do a proper new Sonic
48:49
Adventure, it'd be a big, that'd be a big deal
48:52
for a lot of people. It's funny, like, the funny
48:55
thing about, it just shows how time changes,
48:57
right? But like, time changes perception. But
49:00
when Sonic Adventure came out, everyone was like,
49:01
what are these fishing levels? What a waste of
49:03
time. What a pile of shit. And, Now, I think
49:07
if you did a Sonic Adventure revival and Big
49:09
the Cat was back and you had five nice fishing
49:11
stages, people would be like, this is incredible.
49:14
This is the best thing I've ever played. And
49:16
they would be right. Yeah, I don't mind a bit
49:20
of fishing in a game. I've been fishing a bit
49:23
here and there in various games. That probably
49:26
about does it. There's some I haven't mentioned
49:28
on here, but I think we can get away with that.
49:31
If any of you are truly elderly, Alex Kidd in
49:35
Miracle World is 40. But let's be honest. I can't
49:38
believe it. Who gives a damn about Alex Kidd?
49:40
I do. He always sucked. He was rubbish. I hated
49:43
that game. I played it a lot. He was correctly,
49:47
rightly replaced with our man Sonic. And that's
49:53
that. Maybe Alex Kidd strikes me as one of those
49:55
IPs that Sega's going to attempt to do an ilf.
49:58
ill force out come back up at some point in the
50:00
future now they're reviving old ip yeah i mean
50:03
maybe who knows um maybe a gritty if you're gonna
50:09
do that that's what i would do i would do some
50:11
sort of weird messed up that oh that's actually
50:14
see now i've said it i'm like that's actually
50:16
a cool idea like you could do a because isn't
50:19
the story of alex kid like he's a normal kid
50:21
that gets sucked into like fantasy land or whatever
50:25
um And so could you do one where he is, you know,
50:32
yeah, a young martial artist. I know it is actually,
50:35
he's not sucked into a world. It's just two years.
50:37
Okay, that's less interesting. Because I thought
50:39
he was just a normal kid. So I was like, you
50:41
could do him like washed up. He's an alcoholic.
50:44
I mean, they could do whatever they want. They
50:46
could change it. I mean, I don't think anyone's
50:49
going to care at this point. They've changed
50:51
the story of Alex Kidd. No. Well, you know, you've
50:55
got to respect the law. What can I say? I suppose
50:58
they did do a remaster of it, didn't they? A
51:00
couple of years ago. But anyway, those are some
51:05
old video games that you can play instead of
51:08
playing PlayStation 6 if it doesn't come out.
51:11
By the time PlayStation 6 comes out, how many
51:14
copies of Alex Kidd in Miracle World will you
51:16
be able to buy for the price of a PS6? Depends
51:20
on what happens to the retro market. Well, let's
51:22
see. Let's mark this. A copy of Alex Kidd in
51:30
Miracle World goes for, holy crap. Wow, okay.
51:36
A complete Master System copy of Alex Kidd in
51:39
Miracle World goes for £105. That's unexpected.
51:45
I thought it was going to be like 12 quid. Yeah.
51:49
I never owned it. I just had it built in, right?
51:52
Yeah. Maybe that's why, because maybe they didn't
51:55
print that many. 66 quid without the manual.
51:59
Who is collecting Master System games? Master
52:03
System stuff is so compromised and pants. I don't
52:06
even keep my Master System stuff on the shelf.
52:07
It's in the loft. Yeah. Anyway, that will about
52:12
do it for this week from us. Unless there's an
52:17
addendum on here where I return because there's
52:19
been some major video game news that you need
52:21
to know about. But fingers crossed not. We'll
52:24
be back next week. It will be a multiple podcast
52:29
week next week. There will be a review that we'll
52:34
do as a separate podcast. There'll be a normal
52:36
podcast. There'll be some stuff on the YouTube
52:38
channel. There'll be stuff on the site. I think
52:40
this week probably will have been a bit quiet
52:43
because of the holidays and also because everyone's
52:46
working on stuff that we legally can't talk about
52:49
yet. That drought is finally coming to an end
52:52
next week. So stick with us. Thank you so much
52:54
for listening. Don't forget the Patreons, people
52:58
who back us on our Patreon, which is patreon
53:01
.com forward slash respecnet, R -E -S -P -E -C
53:05
-N -E -T. You get the podcast ad free. You get
53:09
the website ad free. You get... you know bonus
53:13
features and and all that sort of stuff where
53:15
we write about things that are a bit more personal
53:18
and stuff on a separate feed and if you back
53:21
us you also get the warm fuzzy feeling inside
53:22
of knowing you are supporting independent games
53:24
media in the midst of a shed load of layoffs
53:27
where i literally got a text message going everyone
53:29
at company x is being put on notice while we're
53:33
recording this podcast it's a rough time so your
53:35
support helps an enormous amount and if you are
53:40
backer you will see Definitely me. Maybe both
53:43
of us were figuring out the game plan for the
53:45
lock -in immediately after this if you head to
53:48
your Patreon feed. So that's it from us for this
53:51
week. Tom, I hope future you has had a very nice
53:54
half -term. Yeah, at this point when you're listening
53:58
to this, I'll be on my way back from a holiday
54:00
in a caravan. So who knows? Hopefully it has
54:05
been good. I'm going to say I've had a wonderful
54:07
holiday. Manifest it from the past. fingers crossed
54:12
I expect I will have had a very busy week but
54:14
you and I will talk about this later anyway so
54:17
that's it from us so yeah until next time everyone
54:20
say goodbye Tom see ya bye bye