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Sophie Chang & Her WTA Tour Journey · Yips and Giggles

• speaker-0: What's up guys, welcome to our podcast. speaker-1: She finally realized that it was all mental. What's up, y'all? Welcome back to Yips and Giggles. We have an amazing guest today, Sophie Chang. She has been playing professionally since 2015. She has a career high singles ranking of 217 and a career high doubles ranking of 59 in the world. She won a WTA doubles title in 2022 at the Hamburg European Open and achieved her best grand slam result at the US Open in 2023, where she made it to the third round in doubles. And so Sophie has actually just finished her season as a player for the Intense League, which is kind of a new modern take on professional tennis. So we'll get into her experience with that. We also discuss her master-oriented mindset, her injury struggles, how she plans to get back into playing on tour, and kind of the different factors that led to her choice in playing pro over college and how that might look a little bit different in today's landscape. We really had some great conversations. We really hope you guys enjoyed this episode as much as we did. So sit back and enjoy. How's your day going? speaker-2: Well, it was a little busy. I was just in the Jersey Shore yesterday for a pro air fork. speaker-0: you did the pro am the one on like, OK, I've done it before, too, like the one day where you play with the is it was classic center court something. Yes. Yeah. my gosh. That's so fun. How did you like it? speaker-2: It was fun. speaker-0: That's awesome. Yeah, I remember when I did it I did it three, four years ago, so it was a while now, but I luckily got paired with an AM that was like very chill and just like was so happy to be there and wanted to have fun. And I remember every single person we played against, she's like, why are they being so rude and so serious? And there was like, the pros were like trying to peg my AM and I was like, what are we doing here? speaker-1: I knew. speaker-2: No, we had that too. Like so we were in a group with two pros that I knew from the tour. And one was my is my best friend. she actually played Intense too. We roomed together for two months, two from Phillips. Do you our Alex Alexandra Mueller? I don't know if you speaker-1: I've heard the name. Yeah, yeah. speaker-0: name. speaker-2: Okay. So sh that was really fun getting to play against her, but then and Jamie Loeb was there too. speaker-1: nice. speaker-2: so I know that yeah, they weren't doing anything crazy. Although Jamie Loeb did hit my aim with the serve and my aunt got real and I I didn't know. I didn't know what happened. I was at the net and I just heard like silence and she didn't hit it that hard. And then Jamie kind of made a face and I went over to the other side and then I kinda realized like, did that hit? But the third girl in our group was speaker-0: She hit her with a serve, but you were at the net. So she hit her at the baseline. speaker-2: Mm-hmm. speaker-1: I was trying to add that up as well. I was like, wait, hold on. speaker-2: I was in the vet and she served a serve and I just heard kind of like silence and then black, you know? And then I was like, nice serve. And then I went back and the Anne was like shaking her head and there was silence and Jamie was kind of like, sorry. And then I just I just was on the phone with Jamie, like on my way, like Break before I talk to you guys, and we were laughing about it. I was like, You didn't hit that that hard. She was like, But she was salty, she was mad. speaker-1: That's too good. Any Ani's been hit a couple times with some surf. speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, I have like bad luck. Yeah. No question once. speaker-1: Yeah, yeah. speaker-2: Yeah. speaker-0: Yeah, I guess I have a soft head or something. I don't know how I got a concussion from a tennis ball, but I did, speaker-2: And then I mean I can see yeah how it would happen, but still like I'm never happening a wood. speaker-1: Yeah. I proceeded to hit her after her concussion in the head, so that was really good. That was speaker-0: You did. Our coach was like, speaker-1: He was like he was actually pissed. I was like, I'm so sorry. I didn't mean to. Like I I didn't even know what happened. I was genuinely I was like, How did I just do that? I was like, How did I just do that? Out of all the speaker-0: I don't know. I was probably standing in the wrong spot too. speaker-1: You just got up too early. speaker-2: That happened like at a program at the club that I used to train at, now I'm teaching at right now. We're having a program and this good friend of mine fell and in a point, fell and broke her wrist, but got the ball back. And then the pro handed over and hit her in the wrist. Like it was like horrible. Like it was just so quick. And then we were like, are you serious? Like speaker-1: my god speaker-2: She fell on her wrist, stood up, and then looked like the overheads hit her in the wrist. speaker-1: Poor thing. speaker-2: Yeah, yeah. She's this was years ago. She's fine now, fully recovered. But it was it was like she had a target. Yeah. Target on her wrist. speaker-1: watch out for these programs. Obviously been keeping up with all this kind of intense stuff. but we also wanted to talk about, you know, your time on the tour and things like that. But since you know the Intense League has ended, what have you kind of been up to since then? Like what's kind of your future plans now? speaker-2: so I came off tour my last tournament was Charleston Open last year. and I have a protected ranking. I had a stress fracture of my rib. And and I was a little burnt out too. Yeah, it was kind of weird. Weird from speaker-1: Crazy injury. speaker-2: service. Yeah. speaker-1: Crazy one. speaker-2: I remember I was trying to work on my serve a lot. and I think I I remember like the day it started hurting, like I kind of did something to it in a practice where I was doing a lot of serving. But the thing was then I played like five tournaments after that, like on it. It probably took it from like maybe it could have gotten better and healed to like okay, no, this is like showing up on the MRI as like a stress reaction or whatever it was. so that was minimum gonna be like a month and a half to two months recovery timeline. And I was already like as I said, burnt out. Like I was struggling that year already, just not enjoying it at all. so I just decided to at least take six months and protect my ranking. Right. And then I kind of fell into coaching and just living a normal life for the first time in my entire life. And I had the best time of my life. And so that's what I've been doing, you know, like in this past year I was I was coaching and, you know, Definitely had kind of a full circulation of clients and stuff. And then still holding on to that protected ranking. and with the intention of maybe I was gonna I was gonna gonna maybe play some tournaments after intense. And then I actually had like a strange turn of events right before. when I was get gonna get ready to play in the league because I hadn't competed obviously in over a year. And so I kinda gave myself like a two month window like from the end of March to the beginning of June when I was gonna start playing, you know, to start really ramping up training. Mm-hmm. and I'd just been coaching, but all this beginning of the year I'd had some lower back pain, which didn't like light up any warning bells in my head, but you know how we athletes are speaker-1: Ignore it. speaker-2: And then when I started training, I like put it out really bad and I was like, okay, this is like there's something kind of weird going on. So I got like two MRIs and the I got my hips and pelvis and L spine MRIs back and there was like pretty severe inflammation in the hi right hip and then a slight disc protrusion. so I ended up getting several injections. into my hip and into my spine to be able to play intense because I was starting to get really excited about playing. I was like, this is something that I've like wanted to do my whole career and I am not missing it. speaker-1: Yeah, I am speaker-2: Yeah. And so I mean, I showed up for intense not having played a singles point in over a year. Like because because that whole two month window was spent with me either being bedridden or like getting an injection or and like waiting for it to settle and like stuff like that. Right. so it's it was a bit intense to start out just speaker-1: Pun intended. speaker-2: But I actually actually well I flew home mid season to get my third shot. god. But come July, like I actually started to get closer to playing like some good tennis and stuff and felt pretty good like for that whole month of July. So speaker-1: Nice. speaker-2: in a roundabout way what I'm saying is I was able to make it through the season. but my plans after like I need to let it heal. It still does bug me sometimes and it's not healed. Like I got that to be able to play the season. So I'm in the process of talking to the WTA right now to probably repause my ranking because it actually comes unsuspended as soon as you're playing even in a league like Intense. so speaker-1: Interesting. speaker-2: it's not that I'm using it, you know? Yeah. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-2: So if you're playing any any sport or anything for money like that, then It counts like that you were reactive. Yeah. So you only have a year to use it. So this is a different injury. So I'm gonna have to give this more time. Right. speaker-0: I see. And because it's a different injury, you have the option to continue like on that frozen ranking, right? speaker-2: Yeah. I I I I'm talking to them about it, but yeah, like 'cause it shows on I have all the the imaging done and everything and the PT and stuff I've been doing it. Like it my timeline right now, my adjusted timeline would be probably to start playing some tournaments next year again. Like like I'm gonna probably end up coaching all through the winter and spring right now and delay it. if I can. speaker-1: It's probably the smart thing to do. Given the circumstances. speaker-2: Let's let's not make the same mistakes. speaker-1: Right. A hundred percent. Hundred percent. Do you enjoy coaching? Do you like it? speaker-2: I do like coaching. Really? I love coaching. I do mostly private coaching. So or like individual, let's say. Like I haven't done a ton of group clinics or summer camps and stuff like that. And I'm a big people person. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-2: and that actually was something that was really hard for me on tour. It was so isolated. and so I just feel so lucky. like I feel like I'm friends with all my clients, you know, and like I love showing up to work every day and that every person I see is like coming to see me and is so happy to see me, you know and stuff. And hopefully I can help them. Yeah. But it's you know, it's it's very fulfilling too when you see little things click and I can really work one on one with people a lot of the time. So that just it's I don't know. I I've really enjoyed coaching. speaker-1: Mm-hmm. speaker-0: Yeah, we've had a couple of golfers also on the podcast and they've talked about how isolating being on tour can be. And it sounds like just even having like that little bit of like positive interaction day to day can really just make a big difference in like your mood and especially like even coming back mentally from your injuries as well. I bet that helps a lot. speaker-2: Yeah, as I said, I I'm lucky because I I've got a great thing going here in Baltimore and it's a lot of people that have followed me through my career, you know, too. And then now I'm getting to work with them and stuff. So as I said, they really are like my tenth, you know. And speaker-1: That's good. speaker-2: so as an as more of an extrovert people person, it definitely feeds me on a day to day. Yeah. You know, getting their smiling faces. speaker-1: Yeah. that's nice. Yeah, 'cause it's always interesting seeing like a player transitioning into like a coaching position. Like how's that gonna go? 'Cause I feel like speaker-0: Some people are good and some people are... speaker-1: sometimes it just crashes in press. speaker-0: Like I tried to coach a little bit and I was not good at it. I couldn't understand how people couldn't do what I was trying speaker-1: Yeah, you're like just do this. speaker-0: That's probably how my coaches felt when I couldn't do something anymore. speaker-2: I I have gotten my some karmic retribution retribution, I'd say like in full circle, like where someone will do something to me that I'm like, I know what you're doing. I speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-2: did that. I did that to a coach before. But you know, I I think it was kind of the way I always saw the game. Like I I was a really analytical player, not tactically necessarily, but just about technique. and understanding maybe more of the sports science and the physics part of it and just kind of you know having having a lot of introspection about what was happening or or in my game to perform my best. So at least from that facet of the game, I've had a good time helping people and it seems to be going pretty successfully. But I I hope I always hope I can help people. There's definitely I'll I will say the things that I was always really good at, like that came naturally to me. Like I I was a very aggressive player. like sometimes people will bring their kids to me and be like, can you teach can you teach them how to play big, you know, like and stuff. And I while I can help, I'm like I also am like, I can teach the stuff that I had to learn, you know, better than the stuff that came naturally to me. I'm like, you know, I kind of came out of the wheel swinging. I can do the speaker-0: I like... speaker-2: winner. I can do it alright. speaker-1: No exactly. speaker-2: Some kids just they don't like that risk. speaker-1: Yeah. Some moon ballers out there for sure. Yeah. Run into those every once in a while. Well, yeah, speaking of kind of talking about the whole analytical side of things, I I watched an interview you did, it was a few years ago, and I think you were playing like an ITF World Tennis Tour event or something like that. And I really liked how you were describing the tour as like the ultimate pursuit of mastery. Cause like We we talk about that in sports psychology all the time. And it's like if you're mastery oriented, you're much more focused on, you know, like improvement and developing and like learning as you go. Whereas like being more performance oriented is, you know, just focusing on results. And, you know, sometimes you get caught in like comparison to others and things like that. And so, you know, of course there's gonna be like a blend of those two, right? Like you're never gonna just be like one or the other. But I think it's obviously more important to kind of put your energy more towards that mastery part of it. Cause you know, you'll have more resilience in the long term, you'll have more motivation, things like that. So was that something that you kind of had to learn like along the way, or have you kind of always believed in that sort of mastery approach since you started playing? Or is it kind of just like a learn as you go type thing? speaker-2: Yeah, no, it's it's one of the things that I'm I wouldn't say most grateful for. it's one of the things I'm very grateful for learning through through sport. You know, I don't even wanna excuse me, isolate it to just tennis, you know. because I I am a believer that anything you do, like any any field you're in, any art you do, any, you know, whatever you're doing, if you're pursuing it to like the terminal education level at it, you know, it is your pursuit at a trade or a skill or anything. but I think sometimes sports in their own way, kind of force that to the forefront, you know, things or like make, you know, they force you to learn how to put your focus in that area. because there's so much you can't control and the career timeline's a bit shortened, you know, and stuff. It's a little more intense and there's a lot of ups and downs. So at least for me, definitely I would say in the first part of my career, I was learning how learning that more. as as we are right now, I was on tour as a profession, like signed as a professional for 10 years from I guess. 2015 through 2025. I was playing as an amateur before that, but I would say before COVID, like those first five years, I there was a lot taught to me. I was really lucky, I was surrounded by good coaches and stuff. and just a lot that I experienced in those five years that pushed me more in that direction, you know, to bring that focus to number one, what I could control, but number two, Finding enjoyment in the pursuit of mastery and honing my craft. speaker-0: It definitely does. I mean, like you said, I think it's applicable to areas outside of athletics as well, like in your everyday life and work, in your relationships. And it's a tough skill to come by, but it's definitely valuable. And so you said you turned pro in 2015, so you were about 18 years at that time, which I imagine is again, it's tough to go. begin traveling the world as like a full-time committed professional at this point. So I'm assuming that again, that that pursuit of mastery kind of helped you navigate all those responsibilities that come with playing pro at such a young age. You know, I feel like it's more and more common nowadays to see people go to college and go pro at 22, 23 versus 18. But is there something else that, you know, especially in those early, early years again of being a pro, helped you deal with all those responsibilities and help you develop into like that better person, that better player. speaker-2: I think, you know, I kind of had a little bit of a different, well not different, I would say, but like I I I didn't really choose tennis, you know, so to say, like as my sport. You know, it was kind of something I was just always put in and I didn't play a lot of other sports. and I so I didn't really grow up with this inner child. you know, that had chosen the sport and was like fell in love with the game. So it that was actually really tough for me once I was already on the tour and I was kind of coming to this realization like I I don't really know whether I like the sport speaker-1: Right. speaker-2: I like hang on. It was always just something I did, you know Yeah, speaker-1: Like expected. Yeah. speaker-2: and I didn't know more importantly what I love about the sport, you know? And so For me, that was like probably the biggest motivation in going down that avenue is like I kind of had to figure out like what is it that you can love about like what you do and stuff. And that obviously can be a really addictive quality for s for many people in sports is like that that pursuit of, you know, gaining knowledge and gaining, you know, honing a craft and and stuff. As far as it relates to like just kind of entering the professional lifestyle on in tennis that actually what came a little more naturally to me. I I just am a very adaptable person and pretty laid back in all things outside of competing in tennis. There's things and I I've broken some rackets. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: You're not the only one having a meal. speaker-1: her moment. speaker-2: I I yeah, I I am the type of person that just kind of like when I started out on tour, my mom was traveling with me a bit more and then she kind of like backed off and it just I was traveling alone. But I I just didn't really it w it was the only the only life I really had ever known. Like that style of living out of the suitcase and being in a different place each week. But I I was kind of okay with it, you know, just like to me that was a little separate than from you know, at the real nitty-gritty of what I enjoyed in the sport of tennis. You know, that was just kind of like I was like, you know, like I I don't mind if I'm in a change of scenery every week and there's chaos going around. You know, I was always kind of like, I I can handle it. I'll figure it out, you know. But then but what so like I it was weird. I was like bet I was better at handling some of those stuff that like on the surface someone outside looking in might be like gosh, you know, that's a really weird lifestyle you're living. But the the the the meat and potatoes of what I was supposed to be doing, I was like, man, like sometimes this is making me miserable. I'm so stressed, you know, like what I I don't even know whether I like competing, you know, like so much. and stuff like that. So I had to kind of refine my focus into a direction that you know, spoke to me a little bit more. speaker-1: Mm-hmm. Do you think the the tour has kind of changed in any way since you first started? Like especially coming from like a women's player perspective? speaker-2: Although I think it's getting better. Like the level is really good. Yeah. Like I mean, I I don't want to speak for or against the some of the you know, the accommodations, let's say, like toward towards players. Right. But the level like of women's tennis is better and better, like I feel like every year. You know, like the game is just evolving and advancing. and the level of athleticism, the level whether it's the level of that or the understanding of the sport or the sport science, all the stuff that's being introduced into the mix now. And you know, like I felt like you know, I I just the level of player the l the level of play that you see in the rank in the ranking range between, you know, outside of the Grand Slams, like two hundred to 500 now is like so different from when it started, you know. Yeah. speaker-0: That's also what makes it so exciting though, right? Because you're going to be competing against such amazing players and it really just is up to who's the better player on this day. Can I prove to myself that I'm a better player? Can I grind it out? Can I push myself? So that is the one part of competing where, again, I was already burnt out when I finished. But that's the one part of competing that I really, really missed. speaker-2: I didn't enjoy that for a long time and we can we'll probably talk we'll touch on this later when you go into intense because I actually helped that helped me with that part more than just but yeah at the time like when I was on tour a lot of times I did feel that like good God like like I mean I was still improving so I I held my own with the rankings and actually you know, reach my career highs later on the later side of my career. But yeah, no it definitely can be a bit much when you're like, my God, this sixteen year old is not even turned pro yet. speaker-0: person still looks at face. speaker-2: Yeah. speaker-1: What year were you born in? speaker-0: 2000 and what? speaker-1: Excuse me to the two. speaker-0: I don't know if you've had much, I don't know, many thoughts on this or have gotten asked about this, but you were in a position where you had a scholarship offered to UVA, right? But then you ultimately decided to go pro. And obviously there's been a lot of buzz about the landscape of college athletics and specifically college tennis, like changing a lot with NIL. And now there's this five for five rule. So I think there's... speaker-2: That's the for five rule. speaker-0: So you have like five years of eligibility. Like it's not, you have five years to just. speaker-1: It's just straight up. speaker-2: Yeah. I missed it. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-2: yeah, no, I I know there's a lot of changes happening and I I rem I knew Reese before she went to school and I knew when I heard she was going into that lawsuit or whatever, yeah. I the first thing I said was like, Ooh, maybe I can go back to the speaker-0: Right? speaker-2: gold Reese. But then I did hear, yeah, like about the I I I looked it up, I was like, Can I apply now? And It was like no, you're twenty nine, you're you're old. speaker-0: They did do an age cap too, unfortunately. speaker-1: Yeah. Almost. speaker-2: yeah, no. I mean, I think it's really cool. I I can't like because I was never involved in college sports, I really I don't feel like it's my place to speak on how that affects the landscape of college athletics and stuff. 'Cause I know people that have beat my ASS on tour that are playing in college now, you know? Like they're fully pros, you know, like playing in the Grand Slam. They're they're in school and I mean, I think great, like the level of college tennis is going up. But I I again I don't know whether people are happy about keeping, you know, protecting more the student athlete side and or not. but for me at the time some people were getting the lifetime scholarships, you know, when I was deciding whether I'd go to UVA or not. I mean I I had full intentions of going to University of Virginia. I actually signed my NLI and everything and had a roommate and was planning to go. But as I said, I was playing pro tournaments as an amateur already. And when I graduated high school, I I started, I really wasn't like a top candidate, like to go pro. Like I was at my best, like maybe top 30 in the nation, top 20 in my recruiting class, but I wasn't I never played any junior slams. I wasn't traveling to play the international juniors or anything. and I just kind of finished high school and started doing like a little better on tour. Like I had some good wins and I kind of knew like that my I mean, it was my choice, like I wasn't forced into anything, but I knew my parents and my coach kind of were hoping that I'd Go pro maybe, you know, and that was actually the life I was more comfortable living at that point because I that was all I had known. I was homeschooled my whole life. I've never been to school. And yeah. And so that was behind my decision. And at the time still, there weren't many people that had successful like w risen to the top, you know, that had gone to school at all. Yeah. And now I think there's much more of a pathway and people are showing that like this is a great way to GoPro and stuff. So it's just changing, you know, it's an ever changing thing. but that was yeah, decision I made at the time. speaker-0: Yeah, like it's obviously different for every person and every person has to consider what's best for them. But some people like for like, for example, some people do maybe need those four, well, now five, five years of college to like, you know, develop and work on their game. And if they go pro at 18, they they might not be successful at all versus others who are ready like that. That's the right choice for them to go pro immediately. So, yeah, it's just it's just honestly nice that I think players have more, it's not like one or the other and you're kind of stuck with that choice forever. you have the options either way. speaker-2: I think that that seems like a good thing because I remember how difficult that decision was for me. It's scary. And I I mean, I'll be honest, like I I was very unequipped to make that decision at the time. I part of it was as I said, like my parents were very supportive of going pro and I knew and my my grandmother too at the time. I knew I have funding at that time to try pro. I didn't know whether I personally would have funding after I went to school. Right. so that was, you know, part of the decision making for me. But it was very overwhelming to feel like literally one decision just changes the entire course of your life like in a completely different direction. Because I I actually don't think I would have gone pro if I'd gone to school, you know, after so yeah, if if there's a way to like not make it like make or break, you know, I I think that that's better, but speaker-1: fully support that for sure. And I feel like even nowadays you'll see college players, they'll go off and play pro tournaments. Like they will in certain parts of the season if there's like a break or something. So like they still can go and play it. I think it's just kind of navigating like also being a teammate at the same time. Like how do you kind of balance that, you know? speaker-2: I've heard some stories actually recently about some people that are playing for a school and you know, are pro, you know, or were pro or whatever and that there is some unrest. Like I you know, again, this is very vague information, but like that there there are there are some I've heard some rumblings that there's some unrest about teammates that are going off and basically playing on the door a lot, you know. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-2: Not showing up to a lot of team practices. speaker-1: I I yeah, I can see where that would get a little sketchy. Like it's like, are you even a part of this team? Like what I don't know, like if it's it's tough because if you are missing like a team match, it's like, okay, well, you aren't really playing for this team then. You know what I mean? Like it's like, okay, I don't really know how to balance this. But yeah, it's it's definitely it's ever changing and I I don't know if I would want to be a part of it right now. It would be very overwhelming. I just be like I I don't know what to do at this point. Do you wanna get into some intense stuff now, Anya? I think that would be kind of fun. I'm speaker-0: Yeah, I'm really, really curious. speaker-1: so curious, honestly. I've been speaker-0: We've been sending each other videos and posts back and forth on Instagram. like, have you seen this? What is this? Well, we got to learn more about this. speaker-2: So this was the first season where they based it in one city. Okay. They had ten teams of, you know, the eight players, four men, four women, that like were set teams. Like there was no people coming in for weekend events or anything like that. You know, it was this is the first season they did it like that in that format. speaker-1: Right. Yeah. I first heard about it actually. I was working with a player and someone had like reached out to her about like applying for it and she was like, like 'cause she didn't really know what she was gonna do after college. And they were like, Hey, like you can come and do like a almost like an interview or whatever. she didn't she didn't get it, but she was like I was she was telling me all about it. I was like, this sounds really cool. It's almost like kind of like the wild, wild west of tennis. Like I was just like, wait. This is crazy. like that. Yeah, no, it truly is. But so how did how did you actually like get involved? Like did you apply? Did somebody like reach out to you? How did it work? speaker-2: Yeah, actually J Y. I'm not gonna say his last name because I don't know how to pronounce speaker-1: Fair enough. Fair enough. speaker-2: Jay the message name. And I I didn't know that though. I hadn't seen the message. It was like lost somewhere in my message requests and stuff. But I I went I flew into Atlanta for Atlanta Cup just to hang out with my buddy Quinn Gleason. She was playing like they 'cause they have little one off show show showcases and stuff. Right. so this was back last year. This was maybe in the beginning of December. And she was like, Hey, do you want to be my guest? Like and I had points to that were expiring, you know, and I was like, Yeah, like I just want to come see you. So I flew in to Atlanta, just stayed with her and kinda checked out the event because I had heard, you know, again, rumblings of what was going on at the wild wild speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-2: I I hung out and I met some people and they were like, would you ever want to play this, you know, and I was like, yeah, it looks like a lot of fun. I I didn't get I didn't understand the format yet or anything, but I was like, you know, okay. and it seemed like good money too. Like I I was fully I've been fully honest to people when I've talked about it. I was like, yeah, in the beginning you're kind of like, okay. I I actually get paid to just show up, you know, and like win or lose, you know, know what I'm getting and stuff. so moving into the new year. I told him I was gonna be interested in probably either I was gonna sign up for either the draft as a player or as a coach. I was considered him going as a coach because of that clause that I talked about. I knew it would un it would unbark my ranking. speaker-1: Yep. speaker-2: So gotcha. I ended up deciding that I was gonna play and go as a player, but I didn't they had a showcase for International Women's Day in Orlando in January or February, I think this year. So I went as a coach for that. because I didn't want to start the timeline that early. So that was kind of where I first really learned the format. I had it was really fun. I had a team of three women, and there was I think there was just three teams of three women and three female coaches. So it was like an all women's event. and I it was very like You know, the rules I I learned the rules as I was there. speaker-1: You're like, what does this mean? speaker-0: It's like drinking from the fire hose. speaker-2: I I don't think I used any timeouts and stuff and also the because this was this was not at the at a stadium, you know, like or anything. So this was at the national campus. Right. And I think at least in the first match, the scoreboard wasn't working. So I you're like like my phone that's right out there. speaker-0: like, on, let get my calculator out. speaker-2: Would start it when the ref said go, you know. Like Sebastian was there when he would say he would blow the whistle, I'd be Okay, start 10 minutes, and then I'd like looking at it. And I it was very fun because, like, I knew all three of the players on my team, they had been on tour too. So I just told them I was like, anything you guys need, just tell me. Like, this is a very mutual, like, coaching style we're doing. So I think we made little signals for them to tell me, like. when they wanted to be taken out or anything, you know. And that yeah, that was so that was kind of my introduction more to the event. And then I was feeling a little more prepared, as I said, knowing the rules like when we were going into the real season, but I was obviously not feeling prepared with my level of play. Fair enough. My injury. speaker-0: Can you explain like very simply or as simply as you can like the format and the rules for for those of our listeners who don't know? speaker-2: Yeah, so I'm assuming if people are familiar with traditional tennis, it's best two out of three sets. Sometimes the tiebreaker for the third, and it's a match where you have to win it and it's not time based. You have to win the final point, you know, win by two, all that good stuff. And so intense is only one serve, one toss, fourteen speaker-1: That's great. speaker-2: seconds between points, which is fourteen seconds between points is very fast. speaker-0: It's very... It is. speaker-1: Quite. speaker-2: It's by the yeah. It's by the clock. You play by the clock. So it's for how they did it this summer, it was it depends on who starts first, men or women, but it was two singles bolts. So two, let's say women start first, two 10-minute bolts of women's singles, where it would be 10 minutes of just continuous play, you know, unless you call timeout, it's 14 seconds between every point. so it would be 10 minutes women's singles, 10 minutes women's singles, and then the men would go ten and ten. And then it would be women's doubles, 10 minutes, men's doubles, 10 minutes, mixed doubles, 10 minutes. and that would be the whole arc is what they call like a match. It's not a match, it's an arc. and it's straight up scoring, one, two, three, four, five. winners are two points. and you play LETs. So like if you we were cheering if you got a LET that trickled over, we were like, tattoo. speaker-0: My last year in college, they changed the rule to you play let's two. So that was definitely an experience. speaker-2: And I'm trying to think if there's anything else. Well, so the a big thing is it's a very fan interactive, fan oriented version of the sport. Whereas in traditional tennis, they're like golf club, you know. Right. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-2: this is like they're like like they're literally like, get loud and tatterina, you know. speaker-0: Music blasting in the background. speaker-2: It's like a we had an incredible stadium they set up in assembly studios in Atlanta and it was like almost you kind of felt like you were in a cage because it was like straight up viewing. We had an upper deck and it was like right up courtside. So there were people like leaning over like, you can't serve. There was there were these one guys that were heckling me at one match and I I actually love heckling, like I think it's really funny. And they were like calling out my socks. They were like, one of your socks is higher than the other. speaker-1: My god. That's great. speaker-2: But like honestly, like I loved it. Like and and you've got your team. Like this is the most important part for me. It's like subs substitutions are allowed like any at any time. It's unlimited substitutions. So you've got your team in the player box court side. And they're obviously like cheering for you and like heckling all their team. They're like, ooh, you know, like trying to get them to single fault because there's speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-2: enough. and Yeah, it's just such an experience, like, you know, being out there. getting to play with a team was something that was so special for me. And feeling like I've got through this amazing group of people. I loved my team, like just everyone on there got along so well and they were courtside, like why you know, really earnestly cheering for you. Like in tennis that's such a rare thing because you can have friends on tour and stuff, but of course by the nature of the sport, everyone's very into like what they're doing and you might be competing against your friend the next day. Hundred percent. And getting to do all those team practices and have them there with you in the match in the like in or in the arc in those big moments, you know, with something that was really different, you know, and like being like, I have this group of people that like we're all in this together, you know. speaker-1: Yeah, I feel like for you it's almost like an extension of college tennis. Like you you've played it now. Like it's pretty much speaker-2: Pretty much living my college years. speaker-1: Yeah, exactly. It's pretty much the same thing. And I saw that you got the fan favorite award. Let's go. speaker-2: I was so surprised. I I didn't I mean, like a lot of people told me they were gonna vote for me, but it was like it was the l championship weekend when they announced it and I remember Barry the commissioner was in there and people I our my team didn't make the playoffs, so we I was just there kind of hanging out and watching the event. This is another thing is honestly like there's a side note, I don't really like watching professional tennis, like probably 'cause it's like In my work, you know, and stuff. But like I'm a bit more fast paced as a person. I we would all go to the matches and intense and watch because it was so exciting to just watch. It was just like one thing was happening after the next and it was it was very entertaining. if you like fast paced stuff. But anyway, yeah. So I was there just to watch the semifinals. And I had made a couple friends at that point, like that had come out and supported our my team and stuff, and they were there and some of my other friends were there and people kept like buying me drinks there. Like I had had like quite a few beers. And then Barry comes up to me and he's like, Don't go anywhere, Sophie. And I was like, Am I in trouble? Like you mean like I'm not Yeah I was like, did I do something wrong? He's like, No, no, just stay here. And I I like I literally I like all these thoughts were coming I was does he think I'm drunk I'm too drunk or something? Like, don't don't drive yourself. I was like, what what happened? And then yeah, and then they were like, no, no, you want a fan favorite, you know? And that was such a specimen. I just felt like so many of my people back in Baltimore had been turning it on. Like I I'm a regular at a couple little spots and they were like sending me messages that they had it on the screen, like the big screen and stuff. Like speaker-1: Thank you. speaker-2: Whenever I was finding and so it it was really special to feel that support and I'm just really grateful, yeah, about that. That was speaker-0: Well, that's just like as a testament to like, guess, like how again, like valuable of an experience it was not just for you, but like for others as well. Right. Because I guess like the point of intense tennis is just like a new way of consuming and playing tennis and maybe making it more appealing to some of the people who don't traditionally watch tennis, too. So it's it's it's it's awesome that that people are really enjoying it. It was also interesting to see how your stats really started improving in just those few short months of you playing in the league. You were a top 10 scoring leader for ARCs. So what sort of adjustments did you have to make, not only mentally, but also strategically with such a different format? And like you said, you had a little bit of that drinking from the fire hose experience with coaching, but I'm sure coming in to actually play it too is just completely different than watching from the sidelines. speaker-2: Yeah. part of my decision making in not going as a coach for the season and making that sacrifice of that I was gonna on you know unpause my ranking was that I was like honestly I love coaching and I was in the zone of coaching at that moment, but I was like, I think in the future of this league I'd be a better coach if I did play it, you know. Once because you're right, it's right completely different. but Yeah, there I I I'd say to what you guys said, like it was a very it was like kind of a two way street. Like, yeah, there was a lot of stuff that I think the event helped me with, like to work through when I was in there so thrown in as a player, you know, suddenly kind of thrown in because I'm using that term loosely, but I felt thrown in. and what my past experiences. helped how it they helped me handle that situation. Cause listen, like that first match we came out in and I played like two minutes of singles and I could not put a return in the court. I was like my God. speaker-1: Sub me out. speaker-2: I came in for singles. I was like, like I have no idea how to to put connect with the right now. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-2: Doubles is fine. I I I got my rhythm in the doubles but We still won that match, but I was like, I'm gonna sabotage this for my team if they're converting my I I told Claudio, I was like, Listen, if the if our girls are doing well, do not put me back in there. Like you let those other girls take care of it, you know. But I think being in that situation, you know, it was like kind of crazy, you know, 'cause like, you know, you we had a full arena and stuff and I was there like, my god, I'm I I'm gonna blow it, you know. But thankfully for the all the the past experiences on tour, you know, I was I kind of knew how to like navigate a situation like that. And as I said, I got my rhythm back for doubles and stuff and just kept building, building, building little bit by bit throughout the season. It was intense is doing a great job of just making this format of tennis really a lot more like a lot less crazy for you know in term if comparably to other sports because if you think about the tennis season, the professional tennis season, it is not a season. It's full year round. You can play a tournament somewhere in the world all 52 weeks later, pretty much. And it's you you play a tournament and each match could be like three hours. It you know, it could be anywhere from an hour to three and a half hours. and you're playing back to back to back days and then you finish the tournament and you go do it again next week, you know? And so in this week I play let's say I played that first match and I had a week to like, you know, be like, okay, I I'm gonna hit some returns. speaker-1: Yeah, speaker-2: Like it wasn't speaker-0: learnings. speaker-2: like, I gotta go out tomorrow and do the same thing, you know? Like so that was this and having the built-in like having a coach, having a team to work through it with, like having someone, you know, like that's another part of the tour that like I was used to like if I had a really terrible match, you know, or something, like I didn't have a coach with me or anyone any hitting partner or anything. So it was like I was trying to say, can I play with this person? Like, you know, hey, do you wanna play? You know, tomorrow and they're like, I want to play points. I'm like, Okay, I'll play points if you'll give me like five minutes of returns. Yeah. Right. Like that. And so again, kudos to the format of the league and the way they organized it for me being able to do whatever I you know was able to do in the season because it was definitely a a building a process. Like now I I did have to sit out of the third match because my back in the first month. was still kind of like getting worse each match the more I played. Like the first match it was okay. Second match I actually played the full time I could, which the most you can play is twelve minutes of singles and then the full time in doubles, mix doubles and mixed. So I played like 32 minutes in the second match and then gotcha. My I was feeling in my back. So I sat out of the third match and then came in for the fourth again. And then I got my third injection and actually felt pretty good throughout the rest of the season. So Obviously the health wise, like the pain, taking care of that helps my level go up, but just being able to like build little bit by bit off of each match, learn from things, learn from my past experiences, and then use the newer format, you know, to help me kind of get work through some things as well. that that was how I progressed through the season. I say use the the format. because it was very interesting playing where every single point counts. Yeah, it's not like you play a good game and win at 40 love. And like the if you put game and tennis 40 love versus a long deuce game, it still counts as one game, you know, or or or you win a set 7-6 or 6-0, it's the same thing. Right. And here it was literally like Every point from the first one, you know, it's it could come down to one point. We had a buzzer beater, you know, in our in our season. So like every point that you play is just another chance to score your team a point. And that that helps the mindset, you know, because it's like you kind of let go of things a lot easier, you know, and stuff. You you have less time to think, first of all, but like also it's just like, you know. It doesn't matter like what happened at the last point, you just gotta move on to the next one. Exactly. Try to win it, you know. Until your coach is like sit her down. You know speaker-1: Yeah, like you you don't really have time to think. Like it's just kinda like, all right, well we gotta go now. Like next point. I think my most difficult one would probably be the one toss, one serve. Like that's just I think I would struggle. I think I would struggle. speaker-2: was challenging because I I went through a period of time on tour where I had the yips on my toss because I was kind speaker-0: I'm gonna ask you. speaker-2: of changing so yeah and I like still to this day like part of my routine to like get ready to serve sometimes is to do a couple tosses. Like I'm not standing at the line like the my I know my opponent's not expecting this to be a real toss but I'll kind of Walk towards the line and like throw a couple balls up and then I'll go and t a serve just 'cause that was, you know, like the toss for me is always a little sus. But yeah. Like so there were times and other players did this too, where we just didn't remember and we just walked up and like threw the ball up and the other team was like that's a toss you know and then and we lose you lose the point. You're like 'cause also times you just you just mess up a toss. Like I hit one I toss one that was like there's I can't hit it and I just like hit a backhand like you know? Like there's there's times like that that happens and you just those everyone just kind of laughs off. You're just like, okay. speaker-1: Yeah, you're like, well we're we're all gonna do it. Yeah. speaker-2: But it helped me like with my toss because as I said, my my toss was always thus and it it it still is, but like it definitely gave me confidence that like by the end of the season I was like nope, I can walk up to the line and you know and get that ball in the court. Like and so that that was helpful for me, honestly. Yeah. Extending beyond intense tennis, like just for my game. speaker-1: For sure. And when you were actually serving, like were you doing like a blend of a first and second serve? Like, how did you go about that? Yeah. speaker-2: I started with no plan speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-2: because I hadn't been able to serve. So when I was like arrived in Atlanta, I was trying to be like, Okay, what am I gonna do? I w I mean speaker-1: You know? Yeah, exactly. speaker-2: okay, like my coach knew what was going on, so I was like, let's let's talk about it. Let's see what's gonna work. in the I kind of I started trying to do some kicksters, but the issue with the kickserv was that was hurting my back like a good bit, like the landing and that like just being in that contorted of a position, like 'cause you really gotta scoot under that toss for a kickserve. So I did some kickserfs and then I just kind of started to slice it more or just try to spin it as much as I could. Uh-huh. But by the end of the season, I was finding my rhythm on like a three quarter surf, I would say, you know, and there was always spin on it, but it was not just like the second a second serve. It was like I just kind of find my rhythm of like, I feel like I can go for it. I'm just trying to spin it a lot. And that was also something that I always struggled with on tour. And people always wanted me to learn more of a three quarter surf. And I didn't ever like really get to learn it. And I honestly feel like the season helped me with that. Like that it turned out to be a very good surf, like a very effective one because the fall I was bouncing a lot and stuff. So it's something that I'll take into regular tennis too. speaker-1: Yeah, that's actually I was very curious as to like is this gonna help you kind of like in the future with playing? And it sounds like it will. So that's something that I was really curious about with players, because it is so different. But do you think like in the future you would ever play again or coach again for the league? Like any future plans there? speaker-2: Yeah, hundred percent. Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. I think I alluded in the beginning, like of course a lot of players just saw you know, like a more of a financial opportunity. Like at first, like the first thing you see is like, like you're getting paid a salary because speaker-1: Finally. speaker-2: Usually it's like you lose, you're at a you're at a negative, you know. and but then As soon as they started doing like the player orientations, I would say, and having some meetings leading up to the season and we were listening to how they talked about the event and what they ex their expectations were and how they wanted this to be like we are in this together, you know, like win or lose, no matter what, you know draft pick you are or what team you're on or anything. I kind of knew right away, I was like, this is something like a lot more special. wish it was. And that season was something that was very, very precious and treasured to I think pretty much all the players, you know, like whether it was because you bonded with your team or just bonded with all the people, you know, at the league or just felt like you belonged in a league that like wanted you there, you know, as bad as you wanted to be there, you know, and stuff. And that was something, as I said, that like most tennis players have never experienced. and so I would do it again, you know, for sure. I'd I'd like want one I told JY and Barry and everyone else like I don't care. You know, I I always want to be a part of this league as long as it's going, you know. speaker-1: Like sign me up. Yeah. speaker-2: Slap me up for the wild while. speaker-1: Yeah. For the wildest. But that's good. It's so good to hear. And I feel like every single post I've seen about it, like a hundred percent what you're saying. It's everyone's like raving about it. They're like, I would do this again. I would do this again. speaker-0: And you said that it helped you get your enjoyment back almost, right? At the beginning of this episode when we were talking. How did it help with that? speaker-2: Yeah. I would say like leading up to the event in my year or over a year off tour, I really hadn't missed competing at all. Like nothing. Like you know, like yeah, yeah, like the all the Grand Slams have gone by and I've played all of them. And you know, even on the biggest stage is like I'd see my friends playing there, I'd see these moments of people winning their first slam match and I'd remember what that felt like. And there was just not like a cell in my body that was like, like I wish I was there. Like just because of all the stress and all what I knew, all of the stuff that went into it. and playing this event, like kind of finding my own way in it. And then, you know appreciating I think that aspect that I was already talking about, like the straight up scoring and like how to be a competitor in that, like with that mindset more or like that lens on helped me find like just kind of appreciation and the beauty in like what I could do out there. Cause I would find myself in these arcs in intense, you know, just in the swing of it, like, let me try to play one more point before the clock goes off. Let me try to do one more. Let me try to get one more point, one more point. Like, and then every point, you know, like was an opportunity. For my mastery or art or expression or whatever to come out. And I think that was a really cool thing, but like I hadn't ever experienced it ever, like in my career, that like purely, where it was like, that's just what you're doing out there when you're in the flow. And so leaving the event, I was like, that was the most fun I've ever had, just in the essence of competition, right? You know. And it did make me, although I know it's very different on tour, it did make me kind of like, you know, not I wouldn't say miss, but like, you know, like want to explore being an athlete, a competitive athlete again. Right. You know, like would see if I can incorporate that a little more, even if I'm not, you know, playing in the intense league, like, you know, being out there playing some pro matches and being like, can I stay in that mindset? Can I be like, You know, I'm just out here with an opportunity. Every plant's an opportunity, you know. speaker-1: That's honestly a great way to look at it. I think another thing I wanted to ask you about is obviously you are very talented on the court, but you also are musically gifted, is what I've seen, which you don't hear very often. Like athletes usually kind of stick to their own thing and they're just like, Yeah, I'll go with this. But you know, I think it's a pretty big aspect of your life. So has it almost been like an outlet for you when when you were competing, or is it kind of like You know, you keep it separate completely from, you know, your tennis life and then you have your music life. Like how does that work for you? speaker-2: Yeah. thank you. speaker-1: Very bad. speaker-2: I always told people because like as I said, I I didn't even all my ten years on tour, like I didn't really consider myself a really competitive person. You know, I was just not a person that like loved playing the game and like playing games and trying to win, you know, like yeah. And speaker-1: You're like, yeah, whatever. speaker-2: But I loved performing always. Like that was an aspect of tennis that again, like I was I learned to love early on in my career as I was like, I actually liked entertaining. And this shows up in my entire life. Like if I'm with friends, I love making people laugh, even if I'm like the fool. You know, like I I love, you know, performing and entertaining and and that whole aspect. And I always said that like I probably would have preferred to be in performing arts rather than sports. Because like, know, yeah, I like that. You know, I like being active, but I'm you know, not maybe competing against, you know, another person, you know, trying to beat someone. But the music part. So my mom was a musician. My mom got her doctorate in piano performance, was a concert level pianist, concert pianist. and so she kind of raised my older brother and I to have a little bit of a background in music theory and play a little piano and stuff. And I just loved to sing as a kid. Like I was the kid that was like always singing. I was probably really annoying. It's like the shower was on, like you hear me singing and stuff. And I'm not saying I was good at it. I just like I loved it, you know. Yeah. And I would I would dance a lot too. Again, not good at dancing necessarily, but like it was like I just was that type of kid. Right. and so when I got it how it relates to tennis is like when I was in the early part of my career, like let's say around like 2015, 2016, 2017, I always kind of maybe wanted to have, you know, maybe more of a h some more hobbies and build that for myself outside of sport. And I knew as I said, I love to sing and I wanted to learn guitar just to accompany like, you know, just for just for myself. Like if I was like in my room I wanted to be able to play something and sing along to it. And so my coach also, Ross is in a band to like a cover band covered by the Ruxtones. And so he helped me with that. Like it's he gave me my first guitar and taught me the basics. He's a drummer, but he can play guitar really well. Yeah. And I was going to a lot of his gigs and stuff, and he just helped me kind of learn the how to play open chords, you know. Yeah. And always encouraged me too. Like my parents were very encouraging, but Ross was really encouraging of like, you know, like, yeah, you have a beautiful voice. You can sing. You can sing. So it was just really something I did more as a hobby on tour, you know, like and I never performed or anything. I just would I had a travel guitar for a while that I would take with me to tournaments. And it was like something to un unwind, yeah, and get me away from that. competitive sport and into something that maybe felt more you know like I was treating my inner child, you know, too. But then for sure when I when I did the off tour, that was actually when I started to do a little more like I don't want to say performing, but like I did some open mics and I started singing some songs with my coach's band. And then we actually did a little duo together. Like a we we played like 20 songs like a little mini speaker-1: Wait, that's so cool. My coach never did that. speaker-0: Yeah, I just got yelled at all the time. speaker-2: I got yelled at too. speaker-0: We're trying something new. We're trying to end each one of our episodes with kind of a fun question about any weird superstitions that you have. speaker-2: gosh. speaker-1: be on or off of either way. speaker-0: On or off the court? speaker-2: I recently just talked about this, like I'm trying to think like to my friend because I started out having more superstitions on tour when I was younger. and like some of the basic ones like like you don't want to step on the lines or you like have to like you know, take this ball for this point or whatever, or you know, if you're winning points only on one side, you have to do something to switch it up, you know? Right. and I kind of let go of a lot of those, like when I got a little more older in my career. And she the friend I was talking to went the other way. She was like, No, I was still doing that. Like a 30 year old woman on tour. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-2: This is kind of funny. Like it's not a superstition, but the the thing that we agreed on was like they'll That there were times like in our matches w th we we gave it a loose name of called like harnessing the blessings like But we would like both like make deals like we or like you know, like sacrificial speaker-1: No dude speaker-2: Like I don't know if you like this is a shared experience or not, but we were dying laughing about the ridiculousness of this. Like we were like, have have you ever like been like, if I could if I win this match, like I will like, you know, give a body part or like I would give, like I would die tomorrow. Yeah. Like speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-2: that, you know, like that level. speaker-1: Like I will do anything. Like speaker-2: I swear, you know, if I if I if can just win this, you know. So speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-2: like embarrassing to say, but like I feel like people have gone through that level of like, you know speaker-1: for sure. Yeah, a hundred percent. speaker-0: You gotta get whatever edge you can get. speaker-1: that's so good. You're speaker-2: It is really funny. speaker-1: just saying out loud what everyone's thinking. speaker-2: Yeah. But if you haven't played tennis that what I've like I kind of like I feel like that seems like really like what? speaker-1: Extreme. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we really appreciate you coming on and talking to us. That was honestly so fun to listen to. Especially with all that intense stuff is crazy. We're gonna have to like keep up with that and keep up with you and and all your your future plans and everything. We hope your back gets better. Yeah. speaker-2: Thank you. Yeah. Well this was speaker-1: No. speaker-2: so fun. And you said like fun question at the end. I was like, all these questions have been fun. Because speaker-1: Okay. speaker-0: I'm glad. speaker-2: this is a great job. Yeah. It's been a pleasure. speaker-1: the goal. Thank you all for listening. Give us a follow here on Apple or Spotify, or you can also watch our podcast videos on YouTube to keep up with us every Tuesday. You can also find us on our Instagram or TikTok at Yips and Giggles to see what we're up to. See you next week. And of course in the meantime, don't take life too seriously and have a laugh on us.