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1-800-1800: The Substance · 1-800-1800

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breaking news breaking breaking we watched a movie from seven
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months ago hello hi
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wait ring ring hello hey who is it movie phone hello you've
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reached 1-800-1800
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SPEAKER_02: 1-800-1800 i have a burning question 1-800-1800
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SPEAKER_01: I have a burning question.
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SPEAKER_00: We wish we were talking about a good movie.
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SPEAKER_00: We're talking about a bad movie.
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SPEAKER_02: We're talking about a bad movie called The Substance.
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SPEAKER_02: Academy Award nominated.
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SPEAKER_02: It also won one Academy Award for Best Makeup and Hairstyling.
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SPEAKER_02: Madeline disagrees.
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SPEAKER_00: Within maybe five minutes of the movie starting,
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SPEAKER_00: Mabel,
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SPEAKER_00: not knowing what we were in for,
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SPEAKER_00: said Demi Moore was robbed of Best Actress.
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SPEAKER_02: I kind of...
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do think she was robbed but I actually think Mikey Madison was
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better now that I've
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seen both I just felt so much sadness seeing Demi Moore looking
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like the older
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version of Mikey Madison not winning the Oscar which is what
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the film is really
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about yeah and like is Demi Moore gonna have another
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opportunity to win best
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actress has she not won before no that's the thing I just like
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an underdog
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SPEAKER_00: I think people would argue that Mikey Madison is the underdog.
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SPEAKER_00: To me, it was like, I just had a basically 40 year career.
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I guess Mikey should be so lucky.
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SPEAKER_00: Mikey was in like an indie movie.
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SPEAKER_02: It was good.
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SPEAKER_00: I didn't see it.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I know.
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SPEAKER_02: Okay,
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SPEAKER_02: so the reason we're doing this episode,
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SPEAKER_02: which deviates from our usual fare,
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is because we had the pleasure of attending a book club at
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McNally Jackson last
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SPEAKER_02: month where they read one of our books.
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SPEAKER_02: Sorry, I'm seeing something over your notes that's making me laugh.
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SPEAKER_00: Let's carry on.
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SPEAKER_00: Please don't read my notes yet.
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SPEAKER_02: I'm curious what you're looking at.
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SPEAKER_02: The ball vagina?
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SPEAKER_02: Back vagina.
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SPEAKER_02: So we went to the book club at McNally Jackson.
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It was actually so adorable and so cool because we got to sit
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in a room with 10
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SPEAKER_02: plus people all holding a copy of one or two by HD Everett.
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SPEAKER_00: And most of them have even read it.
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_02: If they hadn't read the whole thing, they'd read most of it.
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SPEAKER_02: It was so cool.
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SPEAKER_02: It was honestly so cool.
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SPEAKER_00: It was really cool.
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I just never thought we would get to see something like that in
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all of our days.
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SPEAKER_02: It just, you know, these books exist for us in such a real material way.
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SPEAKER_02: But I sort of assume most people on earth have not heard of them,
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SPEAKER_02: touched them,
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SPEAKER_02: read them,
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SPEAKER_02: thought about them.
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SPEAKER_02: But then we got to sit with these people who had done all that stuff.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I know.
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SPEAKER_00: It was awesome.
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SPEAKER_02: It was really cool.
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SPEAKER_02: And everyone at the book club was like, so this is the substance.
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SPEAKER_02: And we, of course, were like, what's that?
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SPEAKER_02: So apparently there is a film called The Substance.
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SPEAKER_00: I had heard of it.
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SPEAKER_02: I'd heard of it.
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SPEAKER_02: I actually knew a lot about it.
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SPEAKER_00: People had said to me, you won't like that.
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SPEAKER_00: Don't watch it.
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SPEAKER_02: People had said to me, do not go to see that.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_02: Oh, I'm Mabel, by the way.
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SPEAKER_02: Madeline.
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SPEAKER_02: I think we should start by talking about one or two.
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yeah okay so the book club was for one or two which is a book
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we published it came
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out in mid-mart one or two is about a woman who gains all of
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this weight sitting at
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home kind of like eating bonbons and being sort of a while her
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husband is in
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colonial india serving in the british army then he falls off a
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horse or gets
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tuberculosis or something she falls off a horse he gets tb okay
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both are true
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SPEAKER_00: Um, and get sent home.
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SPEAKER_00: She gets a letter.
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He's coming home in two weeks and she has to lose like 125
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pounds in two weeks,
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which is as impossible as it is today was even more impossible
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in the 19th century.
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_02: And first she's turning to her doctor.
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SPEAKER_02: Who's giving her all these sort of like tinctures, pills, potions.
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SPEAKER_02: He's also telling her to diet and exercise,
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SPEAKER_02: which she absolutely refuses to do,
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SPEAKER_02: which I understand.
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SPEAKER_02: And so then she does something crazy and,
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She calls her poor friend who lives down the hill and brings
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her up to her house
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SPEAKER_00: and says,
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SPEAKER_00: go fetch me a medium.
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The friend goes into the city to meet this medium who then
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summons her spirit guide
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SPEAKER_00: named Sal,
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SPEAKER_00: I believe.
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SPEAKER_00: Salvatore.
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a jew huge plot point and this spirit head comes up and tells
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her that it's
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possible for her friend to lose the weight they have to do this
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sort of seance yes
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and they do it over the course of a week and she's sort of like
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in the movie
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version she's kind of like you can see her fluctuating like
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between big and you
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know what i mean like it's like she's throbbing and between the
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two sizes and
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SPEAKER_02: The poor friend has to be behind a curtain.
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SPEAKER_02: She can't see what's going on on the other side.
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SPEAKER_00: She can hear, though.
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_02: And weird stuff's happening.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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In my visual of the scene,
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though,
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she's like throbbing thin and thin and fat.
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SPEAKER_00: Kind of.
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SPEAKER_00: Cartoon style.
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SPEAKER_00: Cartoon style.
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SPEAKER_00: Kind of thing.
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SPEAKER_00: And then it works.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00: I was like, what?
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SPEAKER_00: But there are unintended consequences.
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SPEAKER_02: As always.
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SPEAKER_02: As always.
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SPEAKER_02: Her name is Frances, by the way, the woman who's gained all this weight.
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SPEAKER_02: Frances loses the weight, but the weight does not just go away.
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SPEAKER_02: It takes material form as her younger self, Fanny.
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yeah fancy fancy fanny means back vagina my great-grandma's
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name was fanny she's
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lost the weight but the weight has taken human form as fancy
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and so now there's two
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francis bethunes or fancy wayland the unmarried girl and then
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francis bethune who's
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SPEAKER_02: sort of the evil older woman crotchety
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SPEAKER_02: And now she's like achieved her result of a thinner physique,
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SPEAKER_02: which she's hoping her husband,
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SPEAKER_02: when he comes back,
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SPEAKER_02: will love.
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But she's created this real confusion because now who will her
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husband recognize as
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SPEAKER_02: the true woman?
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SPEAKER_02: The older thin one or the younger thin one?
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_02: And so I see why people told us to watch The Substance.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah, of course.
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SPEAKER_00: It's the same plot.
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SPEAKER_02: It's the same, but I think there's some really important differences.
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SPEAKER_02: Should we talk about what The Substance is now?
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SPEAKER_00: You have to do it.
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SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
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SPEAKER_02: Okay.
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SPEAKER_02: So the substance begins.
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SPEAKER_00: Should we say before that for the,
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SPEAKER_00: maybe the,
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SPEAKER_00: after the first half hour,
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SPEAKER_00: I just was walking in and out of the room,
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SPEAKER_00: like groaning.
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_02: If you were watching the movie, you had your head inside your t-shirt.
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SPEAKER_00: So I don't totally know what happened.
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SPEAKER_02: And I, for some reason, was just eyes wide open.
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SPEAKER_02: Enjoying.
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SPEAKER_02: Not enjoying.
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SPEAKER_02: I was squirming.
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SPEAKER_02: But I was watching.
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SPEAKER_02: Because I knew it was important.
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SPEAKER_02: So the movie begins with a shot of an egg.
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SPEAKER_02: A cracked egg.
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SPEAKER_02: into which someone injects a substance and which yields a second yolk.
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SPEAKER_02: Thus begins a kind of recurring image of sort of cellular division.
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And then we cut to Demi Moore looking ravishing with her long
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dark tresses,
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SPEAKER_02: wearing a cute little blue leotard.
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SPEAKER_02: And she's turning 50 and she's an exercise instructor on TV.
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SPEAKER_00: Kind of like a Jane Fonda type, it seems.
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SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
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SPEAKER_02: Jazzercise.
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But she once was seemingly a very successful actress,
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a young starlet,
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beloved by all.
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SPEAKER_00: Sort of a Jane Fonda type, it would seem.
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Did you know about the Jane Fonda thing where she thought she
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invented bulimia?
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SPEAKER_00: Yes, of course.
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SPEAKER_02: Anyway, again, sort of a Jane Fonda thing.
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SPEAKER_02: So Demi Moore is turning 50.
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Dennis Quaid is her evil boss who's disgusting and eating a
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bunch of shrimp.
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I read on the Wikipedia page that he ate like a kilogram of
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shrimp filming that scene.
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SPEAKER_02: And he basically fires her and says she's too old.
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SPEAKER_02: And she, meanwhile, gets into a horrific car accident through
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out of which she remains completely unscathed yeah that was
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confusing she like gets
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t-boned and is like the car flips eight times and then she's at
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the doctor and the
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doctor's like clean bill of health can i say something yeah i
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thought in that scene
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that it was gonna be revealed that she was already taking the
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substance or whatever
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SPEAKER_00: because it was so miraculous that she was fine
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SPEAKER_02: Well, I think a lesson we didn't talk about yet.
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SPEAKER_02: We've been trying to not talk about the movie until right now.
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SPEAKER_00: Failing to do so, but.
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SPEAKER_02: Because we couldn't help talking about it, dreaming about it.
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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I feel like that was also a great lesson of the film where it's
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like she survived death already.
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SPEAKER_02: Like she could have died in the car accident and taken that as a miracle.
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SPEAKER_00: Do you think the whole thing was a dream?
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SPEAKER_00: Jacob's Ladder style?
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SPEAKER_02: Oh, maybe she's dead the whole time.
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SPEAKER_02: I mean, I have a lot of problems with this film.
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SPEAKER_02: So she survives,
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SPEAKER_02: and then the nurse at the doctor's office...
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SPEAKER_00: Who was supposed to be hot,
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SPEAKER_02: I guess,
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SPEAKER_02: was so scary looking.
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SPEAKER_02: He's like, you're a great candidate for the substance.
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SPEAKER_02: And what's so crazy to me is why a male nurse would take the substance.
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SPEAKER_02: Like, you...
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are given this amazing opportunity that no one in human history
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has ever been able
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SPEAKER_02: to have,
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SPEAKER_02: which is being able to be the perfect younger version of yourself,
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SPEAKER_02: and you choose to work in a hospital?
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SPEAKER_00: I'm sorry.
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SPEAKER_00: Maybe he's a generous spirit.
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SPEAKER_02: I just don't get it.
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SPEAKER_02: I thought that was the biggest hole in the movie.
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Actually,
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the biggest hole in the movie...
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Well,
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I think here's the thing.
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SPEAKER_00: Should I keep going with the plot?
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SPEAKER_00: Oh, sorry.
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SPEAKER_02: The nurse is like, you're a great candidate for the substance.
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SPEAKER_02: At first, she's like, no way am I doing that.
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SPEAKER_02: She drinks a bunch of martinis,
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SPEAKER_02: gets drunk,
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SPEAKER_02: calls the substance hotline,
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SPEAKER_02: and they give her instructions.
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SPEAKER_02: She goes and picks it up.
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SPEAKER_02: She injects herself, and then she thinks there's no...
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reaction yet and then margaret quali is born out of her back
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sort of like adam and
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eve style mabel is saying this all very quickly this all takes
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place over the
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course of an hour so she's on the floor of her bathroom her
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whole back has opened
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up and given birth to margaret quali who then lives for seven
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days is like this
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SPEAKER_00: elbow that comes out of her back it's really gross really gross
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Margaret Qualley is cast to replace Demi Moore as the
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jazzercise instructor on TV.
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SPEAKER_00: Her name is Sue.
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SPEAKER_02: She, for some reason, names herself Sue.
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SPEAKER_00: I'm Sue.
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SPEAKER_02: I'm Sue.
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And the only rule of the substance is that you have to switch
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back every seven days.
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SPEAKER_02: And they do that for like maybe two weeks.
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SPEAKER_02: They switch back and forth as instructed.
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SPEAKER_02: And then the whole thing goes to shit.
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SPEAKER_02: And basically,
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SPEAKER_02: Margaret Qualley keeps stealing time,
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SPEAKER_02: which leads to Demi Moore's increasing decrepitude.
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SPEAKER_02: But the thing is, it's not really Margaret versus Demi.
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It's actually the other rule of the substance is that you need
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to remember that you are one.
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SPEAKER_02: You're always one person.
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SPEAKER_02: I wrote it down.
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SPEAKER_02: Everything is you, a perfect balance of seven days each.
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SPEAKER_02: You can't escape from yourself.
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_02: And I have a note about that also,
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SPEAKER_00: which was like,
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SPEAKER_00: it was unclear whether consciousness was shared.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00: I know like our memories passed between them.
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SPEAKER_00: It doesn't because it seemed that way at first,
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but then there's like all of these scenes where they wake up in
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the apartments
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SPEAKER_00: different and they're mad.
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SPEAKER_00: So like,
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SPEAKER_02: and like when Demi Moore starts aging rapidly,
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SPEAKER_02: she calls the substance hotline to like get a refund.
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And they're like,
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it's you like she's Margaret quality is not doing this to you.
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SPEAKER_02: You are doing this to you.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00: And then she's like banging her head against the wall going, stop it.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00: Stop it.
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So just to get to the end of the movie,
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Margaret Qualley is getting more and more successful.
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SPEAKER_02: And so she keeps stealing more and more time.
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SPEAKER_00: Spoiler alert.
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SPEAKER_00: We've spoiled everything.
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SPEAKER_02: So then at the end of the movie, Demi Moore is like a monster of herself.
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SPEAKER_00: When you say a monster of herself, you mean just a very old woman?
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SPEAKER_02: No, she's more than just an old woman.
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You said to me while we were watching,
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no old woman has ever looked like that.
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SPEAKER_00: She's like bald.
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she's like older than old she's like 700 years old yeah and so
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then it all goes to
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a head she looks like gollum comes to a head yeah who i think
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is supposed to be
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like eternal no he's supposed to be like 700 years old he's the
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blueprint um so
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because you know sometimes sorry it flashes back to gollum like
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as a young man and
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he's just like a regular hobbit but then he's become so like
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like withered with age
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SPEAKER_00: and greed and his hair is
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you know incredible um so then margaret qualley has the biggest
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gig ever she's to
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host the new year's eve show which is a huge responsibility but
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she's run out
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SPEAKER_00: basically she's the new dick van dyke
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SPEAKER_00: It does take place in an alternate 1950s media universe.
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SPEAKER_00: Who does New Year's Eve now?
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SPEAKER_00: Andy Cohen.
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and Anderson Cooper.
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SPEAKER_02: And who watches?
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SPEAKER_00: Old people.
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SPEAKER_02: Old people, yeah.
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SPEAKER_02: But this movie's not really for old people.
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SPEAKER_00: It's very confusing.
13:29
So then it's New Year's Eve and Margaret Qualley has run out of
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the substance.
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She can't keep milking Demi Moore's body for spinal fluid to
13:38
make herself young and beautiful.
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SPEAKER_02: And so then she's at the New Year's Eve show.
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SPEAKER_02: She's about to go on air.
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SPEAKER_02: All her teeth are falling out.
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SPEAKER_02: Her ear falls off.
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SPEAKER_02: She runs home and she decides to split herself.
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SPEAKER_02: She gives herself the substance, which you're not supposed to do.
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SPEAKER_00: Single use only.
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so it's like demi more split herself into demi and margaret and
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then margaret
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splits herself into margaret and monstro eliza sue who goes
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back to the new year's
14:03
eve show and is like a horrible monster has like is like
14:09
wearing a gown with like
14:10
boobs coming out of like every side of her she has like eight
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faces and 25 boobs
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SPEAKER_00: she like super glues a picture of demi more's face onto her face
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and then she just explodes with bursts of blood like a fire
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hose amount of blood
14:26
all over the audience and they all try to kill her but
14:29
basically like the remaining
14:32
like blood sack placenta version of demi more like crawls her
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way back to the
14:37
hollywood walk of fame where she dissolves on her own star yeah
14:42
and that's how the
14:43
SPEAKER_00: movie ends yeah
14:44
SPEAKER_02: So I guess I have my first question.
14:48
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
14:48
SPEAKER_02: Is do you agree that one or two and the substance are worth comparing?
14:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
14:54
SPEAKER_00: I think there's like an obvious kind of,
14:56
SPEAKER_00: um,
14:59
SPEAKER_00: lesson of like in pursuit of these like better versions of ourselves,
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SPEAKER_00: we abandon the lives that we have,
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which are actually preferable or like better than kind of this
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fantasy that
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SPEAKER_00: ultimately destroys you.
15:14
SPEAKER_01: Mm hmm.
15:15
And I guess like the lesson of both of them is that the pursuit
15:18
of beauty is always
15:20
SPEAKER_02: something about death.
15:22
SPEAKER_00: Well,
15:22
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
15:23
SPEAKER_00: like it's it is like when we talked about this,
15:26
there's a there's a scene at which like Demi Moore has this
15:30
kind of run in with the
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SPEAKER_00: hot nurse who's an old man at a coffee shop,
15:34
SPEAKER_00: like the other the other self of the nurse.
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SPEAKER_00: Who was the most,
15:38
SPEAKER_00: like,
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SPEAKER_00: incel,
15:39
SPEAKER_00: you know,
15:39
SPEAKER_00: who he looked exactly like in the hot version is Elliot Rogers,
15:43
SPEAKER_00: who shot up UC Santa Cruz.
15:45
SPEAKER_00: Like, very, like, that face really freaked me out.
15:49
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
15:50
SPEAKER_00: I found it really unbecoming.
15:53
SPEAKER_00: Anyway,
15:54
SPEAKER_00: so she runs,
15:55
SPEAKER_00: and he's basically,
15:57
SPEAKER_00: like,
15:57
it gets lonelier and lonelier in the week that you have to be
16:00
your un-hot self.
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SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
16:02
And so she goes home and calls this guy that she had run into
16:05
who she like went to
16:05
SPEAKER_00: high school with who said she was beautiful and asked her on a date.
16:08
SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
16:08
SPEAKER_02: he said,
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SPEAKER_02: I wrote it down,
16:10
SPEAKER_02: like,
16:10
SPEAKER_02: you're still the most beautiful girl in the whole wide world.
16:13
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
16:13
SPEAKER_00: And during the scene, I was like, oh, this is sort of sweet.
16:15
SPEAKER_00: And Mabel was like, why?
16:17
SPEAKER_00: Because she needs male validation.
16:18
SPEAKER_00: But it's like,
16:19
SPEAKER_00: ultimately,
16:20
I think it was like a gesture towards not giving up on the
16:24
version of herself that
16:25
SPEAKER_00: was not Margaret Qualley hot and being like,
16:29
SPEAKER_00: I too can have a life.
16:30
SPEAKER_00: I don't need to just sit and wait for the hotness to come.
16:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
16:34
SPEAKER_00: which is the moral.
16:35
I think if like in a,
16:37
in a moral universe where I agreed with what this movie is
16:40
about.
16:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
16:43
SPEAKER_00: And that is also sort of the thing with one or two where it's like,
16:48
SPEAKER_00: had she just let,
16:49
SPEAKER_00: let it be and like,
16:50
let her husband come home and see her and maybe like tried to
16:53
take care of herself
16:53
SPEAKER_00: in a natural way,
16:54
SPEAKER_00: but like,
16:55
SPEAKER_00: you know,
16:55
SPEAKER_00: also accepted things as they were in the relationships that she had.
16:58
SPEAKER_00: We have no idea.
16:59
SPEAKER_00: Like it could have been a happy ending and same with this.
17:02
SPEAKER_00: Like, had she just gone on that date?
17:05
SPEAKER_02: Or just like retired.
17:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
17:07
SPEAKER_02: Well, I read that Demi Moore didn't identify with Elizabeth Sparkle.
17:11
SPEAKER_02: That's her full name, by the way.
17:14
SPEAKER_02: Because Elizabeth Sparkle doesn't have a family.
17:17
SPEAKER_02: And I was thinking a lot about that.
17:19
SPEAKER_02: Like...
17:20
SPEAKER_02: It is lonely to,
17:21
SPEAKER_02: at age 50,
17:22
look back and have nothing but your career and then for your
17:25
career to be taken
17:26
SPEAKER_02: away from you.
17:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
17:28
SPEAKER_02: And instead, Demi Moore has this other light.
17:33
SPEAKER_02: What I was thinking a lot about was how she does have nothing.
17:37
SPEAKER_02: She doesn't have love anymore.
17:39
but she does that's why I'm saying it was like nice that she
17:42
was like oh I'll still
17:43
make an effort towards this thing and I think that it would
17:46
have been good for the
17:48
movie and for the like psyche of people watching the movie if
17:52
she had followed
17:53
through on that yeah but instead she just like starts
17:56
critiquing her appearance and
17:57
comparing herself to like unconscious Margaret Qualley who's
18:01
lying naked on the
18:01
SPEAKER_02: floor
18:03
SPEAKER_02: I also, there's another quote I have read about Margaret Qualley.
18:08
Margaret Qualley has said like complicated things about the
18:10
film where it's like
18:11
SPEAKER_02: kind of unclear how she feels about it.
18:13
SPEAKER_00: Like she didn't like it.
18:14
Like basically she's like,
18:15
my ass was in the movie more than my face,
18:17
which is true.
18:18
I didn't say this to you while we were watching,
18:19
but I was thinking about that the whole time.
18:20
SPEAKER_02: Like, yeah.
18:21
the director who's a woman's fixation on Margaret Qualley's ass
18:25
and then also there
18:26
are a lot of shots of Demi Moore's ass yeah and they are
18:29
different and like the
18:31
it's just interesting to me like I think probably every woman
18:35
has a different thing
18:35
that they're worried about showing their age and I was like
18:38
okay so this woman the
18:39
SPEAKER_02: director like clearly is obsessed with her ass yeah
18:42
SPEAKER_02: Um, and there's so much ass stuff.
18:45
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
18:45
SPEAKER_02: There's this crazy scene where it's back to the point of like,
18:49
SPEAKER_02: who's who,
18:49
SPEAKER_02: and are they the same person to me more sabotages Margaret Qualley by,
18:53
SPEAKER_02: I guess,
18:53
SPEAKER_02: eating an entire chicken,
18:55
SPEAKER_00: which makes no sense,
18:56
which then like pops out of Margaret Qualley's butt during a
19:00
dance shoot for her
19:01
SPEAKER_02: job.
19:02
SPEAKER_02: And then she has to like rip it out of her belly button.
19:04
SPEAKER_02: It's, I mean, just like the most revolting thing ever.
19:07
SPEAKER_02: Um, yeah, wait, I was going to say something else.
19:10
SPEAKER_02: Um,
19:11
Well,
19:11
I was,
19:12
I wrote down in my notes that it's not about weight and age is
19:16
different.
19:17
SPEAKER_02: Like I think the fundamental difference,
19:19
and maybe this is like too obvious is that one or two is about
19:23
weight and the
19:24
SPEAKER_02: substance is not about weight.
19:26
SPEAKER_00: Well,
19:26
SPEAKER_00: except that one or two in one or two,
19:30
SPEAKER_00: like the result of the weight loss is that there are two skinny women,
19:34
SPEAKER_00: one of whom is young and one of whom is old.
19:37
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
19:38
SPEAKER_02: That's the age similarity.
19:39
SPEAKER_02: Well,
19:39
SPEAKER_02: I also had a thought we,
19:41
one of the really interesting conversations that we had at
19:43
McNally Jackson with all
19:45
SPEAKER_02: the book club attendees was about like,
19:47
SPEAKER_02: you know,
19:48
SPEAKER_02: what would have happened?
19:49
SPEAKER_02: Like we,
19:49
SPEAKER_02: and as you were saying,
19:50
like what would have happened to Francis if she had just waited
19:54
and also what will
19:54
SPEAKER_02: happen to fancy because ultimately no spoiler,
19:57
SPEAKER_02: but like fancy wins and she gets to be the wife of
20:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
20:02
SPEAKER_02: And,
20:03
SPEAKER_02: but I had this thought while we were watching the movie of like,
20:05
SPEAKER_02: is fancy also going to get fat?
20:09
SPEAKER_00: No way to know.
20:11
SPEAKER_00: And like, but like maybe if she doesn't, it doesn't matter.
20:14
SPEAKER_00: Like that's kind of the thing.
20:15
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
20:16
SPEAKER_02: And that's in that way.
20:17
SPEAKER_02: Like these,
20:21
restrictions that Demi Moore and Frances Bethune place on
20:25
themselves are so
20:26
SPEAKER_02: arbitrary because you can't really control it.
20:29
SPEAKER_02: Margaret Qualley is literally a temporary solution.
20:32
SPEAKER_02: You could only be her for seven days.
20:34
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
20:35
Another fundamental difference I feel between the two pieces of
20:39
media is that and
20:41
what I love about one or two is that it takes this like very
20:44
material experience
20:46
like seemingly the most superficial of things like your body
20:49
and your vanity and it
20:52
SPEAKER_02: shows how that like resonates within the spirit world and like I love the
20:57
metaphysical aspect of one or two and I think that's kind of
21:00
like its major
21:01
SPEAKER_02: contribution and my problem with the substance is
21:04
is that you know it's basically like a startup like the
21:08
instructions that Demi
21:10
Moore has the branding of the substance was so like do you
21:14
remember that Judy
21:15
disaster kit no this was like this thing that came out I think
21:20
in like 2020 it was
21:21
like this orange like disaster kit for girls I think that was
21:25
um invested in by do
21:27
SPEAKER_02: you know that one of Kourtney Kardashian's friends
21:31
SPEAKER_02: I think this is actually discussed on the Kardashians.
21:33
SPEAKER_02: It really is like gay best friend is.
21:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I know the guy.
21:37
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's funny.
21:38
But also what it reminded me of is first during COVID before
21:41
PCR tests were like
21:42
SPEAKER_02: easily accessible.
21:44
SPEAKER_02: My dad and I both purchased this like psychotic Silicon Valley,
21:48
SPEAKER_02: like at home PCR system that was basically this like little machine.
21:53
SPEAKER_02: that would like heat up your test.
21:54
It was like you had to,
21:56
it was really hard to get them,
21:57
but I managed to get one.
21:58
I actually recently threw it out and the instructions for the
22:01
substance were
22:01
SPEAKER_02: exactly like the instructions for this COVID test.
22:04
SPEAKER_00: Will was at a party and took one of these and found out he was positive,
22:07
SPEAKER_00: like in a room full of people.
22:10
Yeah.
22:12
SPEAKER_00: Who are all watching the machine going, get out.
22:16
But like,
22:17
again,
22:17
the thing with the COVID test machine is that that was a
22:20
company.
22:21
SPEAKER_02: I paid a lot of money to buy the machine and buy the test.
22:24
SPEAKER_02: But to me, more gets the substance for free.
22:27
SPEAKER_00: So like, yeah, the finances of the substance don't make sense.
22:30
yeah and like one or two it's about like messing with the
22:33
spirit world basically
22:34
and like the consequences are that your younger self is
22:36
materialized but in in the
22:38
substance like who gains and who's losing and like who like why
22:45
did the makers of
22:46
the substance care that like elizabeth sparkle does it but also
22:49
that this male
22:50
nurse does it like are they feeding well they weren't like
22:53
seeking her out but like
22:55
it's a weird cult thing where like the nurse is like you're a
22:58
good candidate
23:01
yeah it doesn't make sense like i just found that to be a major
23:04
flaw well because
23:05
he doesn't work for the substance and actually it turns out he
23:08
doesn't even like
23:09
SPEAKER_00: taking it
23:10
SPEAKER_02: Did you see Baby Girl?
23:11
SPEAKER_02: Is that what it was called?
23:12
SPEAKER_02: The Nicole Kidman?
23:13
SPEAKER_00: No, I didn't see that.
23:14
SPEAKER_02: You haven't seen like a movie in two years, I think.
23:16
SPEAKER_02: No.
23:16
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
23:18
Baby Girl was another 2024 movie that we're discussing six
23:21
months too late,
23:21
but in which Nicole Kidman has this like torrid affair with a
23:24
young man at her
23:25
SPEAKER_02: company.
23:26
And it's kind of also about like lost youth in that Nicole
23:31
Kidman's character
23:32
SPEAKER_02: basically has like the perfect life and is married to Antonio Banderas,
23:37
SPEAKER_02: but he can't make her orgasm.
23:39
SPEAKER_00: Wait, why was it?
23:39
SPEAKER_00: Oh, I have another Antonio Banderas movie comparison to make after this.
23:43
SPEAKER_00: Oh, I know which one you're going to do.
23:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
23:44
SPEAKER_02: But so in the movie,
23:46
SPEAKER_02: though,
23:46
Nicole Kidman's character plays a CEO of a startup that's
23:49
basically Amazon that has
23:51
SPEAKER_02: like uses robots to do like package delivery.
23:55
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
23:55
SPEAKER_02: Like drone delivery.
23:57
SPEAKER_00: Sick.
23:57
I just felt like that too was such a wasted aspect of the movie
24:01
where like you kind
24:02
of see the metaphor because Nicole Kidman is like selling a
24:06
product that basically
24:07
SPEAKER_02: does away with human intervention.
24:09
SPEAKER_02: Like it doesn't need to be touched by human hands.
24:13
But then she's like comes to realize that like she needs sex
24:17
and she needs
24:17
connection and she can't keep living the perfect life if it
24:20
means that she can't
24:21
SPEAKER_02: orgasm.
24:21
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
24:22
SPEAKER_02: And but again, it was like kind of like ambiguous.
24:25
And I feel like these movies keep just like throwing in these
24:27
things about like
24:28
SPEAKER_02: technology and startups and economy and capitalism,
24:32
SPEAKER_00: but they don't have anything to say about them.
24:34
SPEAKER_00: Well,
24:34
SPEAKER_00: also,
24:35
this is making me think of something that's like a critique I
24:37
often have of writers
24:38
SPEAKER_00: as well,
24:38
SPEAKER_00: where it's like...
24:41
don't invent a like you're a filmmaker you're not a Silicon
24:44
Valley like founder so
24:47
don't invent a company that's like it's not going to be a good
24:50
idea yeah if do you
24:51
know what I mean no one came up with that idea for it's a bad
24:54
idea and like I feel
24:56
like writers often also will like write a funny character and
24:58
if the writer isn't
24:59
SPEAKER_00: funny it's like okay it's not funny like I don't know what to tell you
25:04
SPEAKER_02: Well,
25:05
the other thing we were talking about when we were trying not
25:08
to talk about the
25:08
SPEAKER_02: movie this morning,
25:09
SPEAKER_02: but we were talking about the movie,
25:10
SPEAKER_02: was how the whole...
25:13
SPEAKER_02: I hated the entire stylized universe.
25:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
25:17
SPEAKER_00: so,
25:17
SPEAKER_00: like,
25:17
SPEAKER_00: the branding of the substance is,
25:20
SPEAKER_00: like,
25:20
SPEAKER_00: was very,
25:20
SPEAKER_00: like,
25:21
SPEAKER_00: Helvetica,
25:21
SPEAKER_00: like,
25:22
SPEAKER_00: 2011,
25:22
SPEAKER_00: like,
25:23
SPEAKER_00: startup.
25:24
SPEAKER_00: It was, like, Firefest.
25:26
SPEAKER_00: It was Firefest.
25:27
SPEAKER_00: And,
25:27
SPEAKER_00: like,
25:28
SPEAKER_00: I do think the entire movie existed in the aesthetic universe of,
25:32
SPEAKER_00: like,
25:32
SPEAKER_00: an American apparel ad plus,
25:35
SPEAKER_00: like,
25:36
SPEAKER_00: NBC American Idol era.
25:39
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
25:39
SPEAKER_02: And it was like, I don't know.
25:42
SPEAKER_02: It was so, I was saying this to Madeline, like a problem I had with it.
25:45
What I thought was interesting at first was how it was like
25:49
pretty not in this
25:52
SPEAKER_02: current technological moment.
25:53
Like Demi Moore uses a landline and then Margaret Qualley sees
25:57
the ad for the
25:58
SPEAKER_02: casting call for the Demi Moore's old role in a newspaper.
26:03
SPEAKER_02: So it belongs in this sort of like, like, did you see Bottoms?
26:07
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
26:08
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
26:08
So Madeline hasn't seen any movie,
26:11
but in Bottoms,
26:11
like they don't use smartphones.
26:13
And I just thought that was like actually kind of interesting
26:15
to make a movie about
26:16
SPEAKER_02: contemporary high schoolers where they only use flip phones.
26:18
SPEAKER_02: So like that had kind of like a point of view,
26:20
SPEAKER_02: but then halfway through the substance,
26:22
SPEAKER_02: they just start using iPhones.
26:24
SPEAKER_00: It's Jimmy Moore.
26:25
using it though or is it just margaret quality when she doesn't
26:27
go on a date with
26:28
fred he starts texting her oh yeah and it's like but she had a
26:32
at the beginning
26:32
bidding at the beginning of the movie had taken his number on a
26:35
piece of paper
26:36
which i thought was sort of like a nod to the 80s yeah because
26:39
of course i've never
26:40
given someone my number it was like wet and so the like
26:45
complete breakage there
26:47
SPEAKER_02: halfway through the movie took me out
26:49
SPEAKER_00: Can I offer an explanation for the poorest that equality of the movie?
26:52
SPEAKER_00: It's French.
26:53
SPEAKER_00: It's French.
26:54
SPEAKER_00: The director is French.
26:55
SPEAKER_00: And it was filmed in France.
26:57
SPEAKER_00: But it's not even that it was filmed in France.
26:59
SPEAKER_00: It didn't.
26:59
Like,
26:59
it's not that it looked like France and they couldn't achieve,
27:02
like,
27:02
a Los Angeles look.
27:03
SPEAKER_00: It's that, like...
27:04
SPEAKER_00: There is something fundamental about the French,
27:06
SPEAKER_00: like,
27:07
and their taste that they live in a universe where they have
27:10
the best taste.
27:11
SPEAKER_00: And it is so, like, they love graffiti.
27:15
SPEAKER_00: Like, they love, like, red denim.
27:16
SPEAKER_00: Like, it makes no fucking sense.
27:18
SPEAKER_00: Like, and it's so actually, like, stuck in 2010, 2011, I think.
27:24
Like,
27:25
they will never move past that kind of,
27:27
like,
27:27
80s neon,
27:28
like,
27:29
American apparel thing.
27:31
SPEAKER_02: Well,
27:31
SPEAKER_02: it's so interesting because I feel like when we do what we normally do,
27:35
SPEAKER_02: which is talk about the 19th century,
27:36
it's all about how Americans and British people were just
27:39
trying to be as cool as
27:40
SPEAKER_02: the French.
27:41
SPEAKER_02: So something happened.
27:42
SPEAKER_02: I think it kind of ended with the 60s.
27:44
That was the last time the French were like actually way cooler
27:47
than that.
27:47
Now I think the way that French culture is cooler than American
27:50
culture is when
27:50
French culture is trying to sort of be like American culture
27:54
and actually it's just
27:55
SPEAKER_02: kind of weird.
27:55
SPEAKER_02: It's like alternate version of American culture.
27:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
27:58
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, what's good of good French thing right now?
28:01
SPEAKER_02: Like Chanel sucks.
28:03
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
28:03
SPEAKER_02: Jacquemus sucks.
28:04
SPEAKER_02: Jacquemus.
28:06
SPEAKER_02: And I don't know about anything else.
28:08
SPEAKER_00: My favorite like,
28:10
like high end fashion right now is like all British people that
28:12
are good at it.
28:14
SPEAKER_00: JW Anderson.
28:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
28:18
um okay so yeah and the other thing was just the cultural
28:23
references of the film
28:24
like the idea that a hot young new thing on hollywood stage
28:29
would be an exercise
28:31
instructor on nbc or something but like a daytime television
28:35
exercise instructor
28:39
SPEAKER_00: and is there a show like that on
28:42
SPEAKER_02: I don't think they make shows like that anymore.
28:44
SPEAKER_00: I don't even remember there ever being a show like that.
28:47
SPEAKER_02: Well, Jane Fonda's also wasn't cable.
28:49
SPEAKER_00: No, it was like a tape.
28:50
SPEAKER_00: That was like direct to TV and direct to consumer.
28:52
SPEAKER_00: You bought an exercise tape.
28:54
SPEAKER_00: There's also like scenes where she's like,
28:56
SPEAKER_00: when Demi Moore's being pathetic,
28:58
SPEAKER_00: she's like sitting,
28:58
SPEAKER_00: eating,
28:59
SPEAKER_00: like,
29:00
SPEAKER_00: we were talking about this,
29:01
SPEAKER_00: like...
29:02
The way that she is being gross is sitting in a chair in her
29:06
apartment eating an
29:07
SPEAKER_00: entire turkey that she cooked for some reason.
29:11
SPEAKER_00: Watching the Home Shopping Network.
29:13
SPEAKER_00: That is not how you would do that today.
29:15
SPEAKER_00: Today you would order...
29:17
door dash from 20 different places and like you know have like
29:21
packages every it
29:22
actually wouldn't be about like the carcass of the food it
29:24
would be about all of
29:25
the packaging because like that's the reality that we live in
29:28
yeah and instead she
29:29
just pastes newspapers to her huge window with egg yolk which
29:32
is a craft project
29:34
SPEAKER_00: she like wheat pastes her window speaking of loving graffiti
29:39
SPEAKER_02: I mean, yeah, I think the ordering food point is a really good one.
29:43
SPEAKER_02: And like,
29:43
SPEAKER_02: I feel that in this version of my life,
29:47
SPEAKER_02: that's a real version of my life where,
29:48
SPEAKER_02: you know,
29:49
SPEAKER_02: I try really hard to be successful and I work really hard all the time.
29:52
Like I have in my,
29:54
the back of my mind,
29:54
I talk about this in therapy a lot.
29:56
SPEAKER_02: Like what, what would I do if I gave up?
29:59
SPEAKER_02: Like, I know exactly what I would do.
30:01
SPEAKER_02: The first thing I would do is I'd go to a bodega and buy a vape.
30:04
SPEAKER_02: Like I, and then I would start eating like, yeah.
30:07
SPEAKER_00: And yeah,
30:09
it's just funny to me as you're saying like I would but I would
30:12
never start doing
30:13
the art of French cooking like if I gave up I know what I would
30:19
do like I would sit
30:20
on my phone I would download TikTok I would start vaping and I
30:23
would order Shake
30:24
Shack and I would have the best time ever but I don't do that
30:27
because I also know I
30:28
would feel terrible but I actually think if I started doing art
30:30
of French cooking I
30:31
might feel pretty good the other thing you know the book Mating
30:35
by Norman Rush yeah
30:36
SPEAKER_02: of course
30:37
SPEAKER_02: which you told me to read.
30:38
SPEAKER_02: One of my all-time favorite books.
30:39
SPEAKER_02: Which I didn't like as much as you did, but I did love it.
30:42
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
30:44
SPEAKER_02: It just was sort of a slog to me.
30:47
SPEAKER_02: Anyways.
30:47
SPEAKER_00: We won't go into it.
30:49
SPEAKER_02: There's two things in that book that I think about all the time.
30:52
SPEAKER_02: One is the idea of a...
30:54
SPEAKER_02: She talks about the refuge fantasy.
30:56
SPEAKER_02: Do you remember this?
30:58
Instead of having this fantasy version of excess and giving up
31:03
that I'm describing,
31:04
SPEAKER_02: you also in your mind have this fantasy version of what you would do.
31:07
SPEAKER_02: Not if you gave up, but if you decided to protect yourself.
31:12
SPEAKER_02: It's a privileged fantasy where you are able to do what you want to do.
31:16
SPEAKER_02: My refuge fantasy is I move back to California and I learn how to surf.
31:21
yeah i've heard you say that and that i've heard you threaten
31:24
that one before i oh
31:26
i that one's also looms really large in my mind um i guess
31:29
that's my like upstate
31:30
gardening fantasy exactly you just like you we are both lucky
31:34
that we have parents
31:34
who live in beautiful places where they and my dad is like
31:37
please come home please
31:38
come home your mom was like please come home so our parents are
31:42
literally begging
31:42
SPEAKER_02: us to
31:43
just give in yeah but then of course my what i always say to my
31:47
dad is you're also
31:48
pushing me to be successful like you're telling me two
31:51
conflicting messages one is
31:52
that you want me to come home and give up and one is that you
31:54
want me to like go
31:55
out there and be the best i can be like pick a side well that's
31:58
sort of what the
31:59
SPEAKER_00: substance is about well here's the here's the thing okay we also had the
32:02
conversation that we shouldn't have had before recording this
32:05
of if we would take
32:05
the substance do you want to ask me if i would take the
32:08
substance would you take
32:09
SPEAKER_00: the substance
32:11
SPEAKER_00: Here's what I felt watching the movie is like,
32:14
SPEAKER_00: I already feel hot and like successful half the time and disgusting.
32:21
SPEAKER_00: And like, I'm like being a slob and watching TV half the time.
32:25
SPEAKER_00: So I don't need it.
32:28
SPEAKER_02: No, I don't need it either.
32:29
I mean,
32:30
if I actually took the substance and I unleashed a younger
32:34
version of myself.
32:35
SPEAKER_00: Because would it be like an eight-year-old also?
32:38
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
32:38
SPEAKER_02: Because unlike Demi Moore and unlike Margaret Qualley,
32:43
SPEAKER_02: my 20s are not defined by perfect physical fitness.
32:46
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
32:47
SPEAKER_02: I would,
32:48
SPEAKER_02: yeah,
32:48
the self I would want to unleash would be the eight-year-old
32:51
who could have dreamed
32:52
SPEAKER_02: bigger.
32:52
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
32:54
SPEAKER_02: Like my regrets,
32:55
I already am so steeped in regret that my most profound ones
32:59
are about how,
33:00
SPEAKER_02: you know,
33:00
SPEAKER_02: like what classes I chose to take in college or where I decided to go,
33:04
SPEAKER_02: or,
33:04
SPEAKER_02: you know,
33:05
SPEAKER_02: like how I took my parents' divorce or something.
33:07
SPEAKER_02: I was just gone,
33:09
SPEAKER_02: you know,
33:10
SPEAKER_02: or not asking for things I should have asked for as a kid,
33:13
whether that be support or going to camp or going to like a
33:17
summer art program.
33:17
SPEAKER_00: I thought you did go to camp.
33:18
SPEAKER_02: I went to camp until it burned down.
33:21
SPEAKER_02: And then I never,
33:22
not asking for them to rebuild your camp they did rebuild it
33:25
but after my summer
33:26
camp burned down I just never did anything in the summer ever
33:29
again and I wish that
33:31
I had just done what I wanted to do which was go to like a
33:34
summer art program but
33:35
what would have happened I'm happy with how my life turned down
33:38
so the answer is no
33:39
I wouldn't take the substance yeah because also yesterday when
33:42
we so yesterday we
33:43
SPEAKER_02: recorded a different podcast and we were
33:47
Sometimes we go through moments where we're just completely
33:49
haunted by our
33:50
SPEAKER_02: physicality,
33:51
SPEAKER_02: and I was in that moment yesterday.
33:55
It was a really difficult day for me to have to film myself and
34:00
imagine my image
34:01
SPEAKER_02: shared on the internet.
34:03
SPEAKER_02: It was really difficult for me, and I was just hating myself.
34:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
34:07
SPEAKER_00: But like, do you think Margaret Qualley doesn't have days like that?
34:09
SPEAKER_02: No, of course she does.
34:10
But also yesterday I was comforted by feeling like,
34:13
well,
34:13
I do have something to say.
34:14
SPEAKER_02: You know, even if I feel I'm really ugly, I do have thoughts.
34:18
SPEAKER_02: And the thing that was missing from the substance was thought.
34:21
SPEAKER_00: Thought.
34:22
SPEAKER_00: Any inner life.
34:23
yeah yeah and I love having an inner life because even like I
34:27
thought maybe
34:28
Margaret Qualley would come and there would be some sort of
34:30
like development or
34:31
like you know like shared intellectual life between them or
34:34
something but Margaret
34:35
Qualley comes and basically is just like sucking and fucking
34:38
and like contracting
34:40
SPEAKER_00: and pumping like she's like not doing anything no no
34:45
SPEAKER_02: I mean,
34:46
SPEAKER_02: the other thing I thought about this film,
34:48
SPEAKER_02: which makes me know it's not a very good film,
34:50
SPEAKER_02: is that when I was watching it,
34:51
SPEAKER_02: I just was thinking about every other movie.
34:53
SPEAKER_02: How soon it would be over.
34:55
SPEAKER_01: How soon it would be over.
34:57
Well,
34:57
that,
34:57
but also how every aspect of it was referencing another movie.
35:02
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
35:02
and i know all film is probably referential all media is but i
35:06
thought it was like
35:07
no this was crazy like i just was in my list of things i was
35:11
writing down or
35:12
there's like 45 other films mentioned like i wrote down
35:14
benjamin button i wrote
35:15
down freaky friday i wrote dorian gray yeah i mean i wrote down
35:19
barbie the most
35:21
kind of obvious like intentional ones for stanley there were
35:24
like a bunch of
35:25
SPEAKER_00: stanley kubrick references both to the shining and to space odyssey
35:30
and then the Carrie thing but like they were such empty like
35:37
the thing about that's
35:38
ironic about that film referencing Kubrick which it does from
35:41
the outset there's
35:42
like this hallway with this carpeting that's very much like
35:45
meant to be the hallway
35:45
in The Shining and by the end of the movie the whole thing gets
35:48
covered in blood
35:48
SPEAKER_00: which is like that scene where the blood comes out of the elevators and
35:51
SPEAKER_00: Have you ever seen The Shining?
35:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you were looking at me so blankly.
35:55
SPEAKER_02: I know what you're talking about, but I've not seen it.
35:57
SPEAKER_02: Why do I need to see it?
36:00
SPEAKER_00: But Kubrick does nothing.
36:03
Every single aspect of his creation of those scenes is so
36:08
carefully thought out and
36:09
does nothing without an immensity of symbolic weight that
36:14
people to this day are
36:15
talking about whether or not that hallway means that he filmed
36:19
the moonlight.
36:19
ending like it's just like so like layer like upon layer upon
36:23
layer whereas this is
36:24
just like we're making a movie about blood and doubling which
36:28
is the twins in that
36:29
SPEAKER_00: hallway which is like now we made the carpet yeah it's just like what
36:36
it made me worried i think there's also there's something about
36:39
watching a movie
36:40
that you've been hearing about since september yeah and then
36:44
seeing it and thinking
36:45
this is this is what they were talking about yeah there's no
36:49
there there there's no
36:50
there there um it also had four endings but we don't have to
36:54
get into that no i
36:55
don't even i can't even tell you what i kept being like thank
36:57
god it's over thank
36:59
SPEAKER_02: god it's over it was never over
37:01
SPEAKER_00: Thank God it's over.
37:02
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
37:03
SPEAKER_02: some things I thought were interesting,
37:06
SPEAKER_02: and you and I,
37:07
one of the things we discussed before recording that we can
37:09
talk about now is,
37:10
SPEAKER_02: like,
37:11
SPEAKER_02: the casting of Margaret Qualley.
37:12
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
37:13
SPEAKER_02: And her sort of innocence and naivete.
37:16
SPEAKER_02: And...
37:17
And I was thinking a lot about something that does really
37:20
remind me of one or two
37:21
SPEAKER_02: is what it would be like to be born as a fully grown woman.
37:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
37:24
And I thought the scene of Margaret Qualley coming into her
37:27
body was really
37:28
SPEAKER_02: interesting where she's in the bathroom and she's sort of like,
37:32
SPEAKER_02: she's fetal-like.
37:34
SPEAKER_02: And she actually looks like, I've attended a horse birth.
37:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, of course.
37:38
SPEAKER_02: Back at summer camp, I helped a horse give birth.
37:41
And there's something when other mammals give birth and they're
37:44
like walking within an hour.
37:46
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
37:46
SPEAKER_02: It's, you know, it's the most beautiful thing in the world.
37:49
SPEAKER_02: And Margaret Qualley,
37:49
SPEAKER_02: like a little baby colt,
37:51
SPEAKER_02: sort of with her big bony limbs,
37:53
SPEAKER_02: sort of comes into herself.
37:55
SPEAKER_02: And then unlike a little horse who then,
37:57
SPEAKER_02: you know,
37:57
SPEAKER_02: starts suckling from its mother,
37:59
Margaret Qualley wipes the steam off the mirror and starts
38:02
checking herself out.
38:03
SPEAKER_00: And starts feeling herself up.
38:05
SPEAKER_00: But it's also like in one or two, like Fanny, Fancy, why do we do that?
38:10
SPEAKER_00: Fancy, like, isn't aware of her...
38:15
beauty yeah like the fact that the first you don't know you're
38:19
beautiful that's
38:19
what makes you beautiful the first Bruno Mars no it's One
38:24
Direction um the first
38:29
thing that she does like as this newly embodied being which is
38:33
like why I assumed
38:33
they shared consciousness is check out her ass which is
38:36
something you would not
38:38
like no child like sees the mirror like Lacan was not writing
38:41
about the mirror
38:42
SPEAKER_00: stage being like and then these little kids look at their heart
38:44
hot asses like it's not what kids think about when they see
38:49
themselves if we're
38:50
taking it metaphorically women are born and then they are
38:54
evaluated for their
38:55
physical attributes and i thought seeing a baby check
39:00
themselves out in the mirror
39:02
SPEAKER_02: was kind of profound okay
39:05
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it didn't move me.
39:06
SPEAKER_00: It disturbed me.
39:07
I guess what I'll say to that is like the thing that is like my
39:10
overarching
39:11
SPEAKER_00: criticism is like,
39:13
is that how the world actually treats women or is that how
39:18
media treats women and
39:20
SPEAKER_00: then like proliferates these ideas in the world?
39:23
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
39:24
SPEAKER_00: Like that movie to me was like,
39:28
reinforcing all of these stereotypes about the way that the
39:31
world interacts with
39:32
women and the way men interact with women that are obviously
39:35
like true and i've
39:36
reflected in my lived experience but also are like many people
39:41
don't treat me that
39:42
way and it's really hard to recognize when they don't because
39:46
of media like this
39:47
SPEAKER_00: yeah like isn't it time to disrupt the narrative yeah
39:50
SPEAKER_02: Well,
39:51
SPEAKER_02: yeah,
39:51
SPEAKER_02: I mean,
39:51
I think the problem with many of the sort of quote-unquote
39:55
feminist films of the
39:56
last 10 years have been that they regurgitate the most vile
40:01
ideas about women,
40:02
SPEAKER_02: like Gone Girl or Promising Young Women.
40:05
SPEAKER_02: And about men.
40:06
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
40:07
SPEAKER_02: No, they're depraved.
40:08
SPEAKER_02: And also my problem generally with the 21st century is that...
40:13
SPEAKER_00: Get in there.
40:15
SPEAKER_00: Tell the 21st century what's wrong with it.
40:17
SPEAKER_02: So first of all, you're fat.
40:21
SPEAKER_02: No, the 21st century is too skinny.
40:22
SPEAKER_02: It's morally bankrupt.
40:25
SPEAKER_02: I guess I just think that everything is just too intense.
40:29
And you can basically get all of these ideas about how to
40:32
mutilate people and how
40:33
to rape people and how to hurt people from these movies that
40:38
are supposed to be
40:38
SPEAKER_02: critiquing those cultures.
40:40
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
40:40
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
40:41
it's like i don't believe in true crime either no true crime is
40:44
the worst thing
40:44
that's ever happened to humanity true crime is like how to
40:47
murder people 101 well
40:49
it also like trains you like i have gone through periods where
40:53
i really listened to
40:54
true crime like particularly when i was working on treehouse
40:56
masters are you
40:58
SPEAKER_02: allowed to say you worked on treehouse masters on this podcast
41:01
SPEAKER_00: That's up to you, I think.
41:03
SPEAKER_00: I'm proud of it.
41:04
SPEAKER_00: I always bring it up.
41:05
SPEAKER_00: Definitely allowed to say it.
41:07
SPEAKER_00: But basically when I worked on that show,
41:09
SPEAKER_00: I was like traveling a lot in all of these random places.
41:11
SPEAKER_00: And I was also listening to true crime a lot because I was like,
41:14
SPEAKER_00: because it's a genre that has so much content.
41:17
SPEAKER_00: And so like when I was eight hours a day,
41:19
SPEAKER_00: like driving around,
41:20
SPEAKER_00: picking stuff up,
41:21
SPEAKER_00: like from the most random places and like working alone on set,
41:25
SPEAKER_00: like it was just like,
41:26
SPEAKER_00: I always had it in my ear and
41:28
SPEAKER_00: And as a result, I'm in all these new places.
41:31
SPEAKER_00: And my assumption is that everyone there is out to get me.
41:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
41:34
SPEAKER_00: Which is true.
41:36
And it teaches you to interact with the world in this like
41:38
really insane way.
41:40
And I think films like this do the same thing where it's
41:43
regardless of like.
41:44
whether or not it's true it's training the girls who see it to
41:49
meet the world as if
41:50
the only thing that that the world will care about is how they
41:53
look because that is
41:55
still what the film is saying it like doesn't challenge that
41:58
assumption at all and
41:59
so then like you interact with a man and it's like the
42:03
assumption is that that's
42:04
the only thing he cares about and so when you do meet someone
42:06
who isn't like that
42:08
SPEAKER_00: it like you have to move through your own assumptions rather than like
42:12
being able to accept that someone might be interested in other
42:15
things about you
42:16
yeah it's really nefarious I'm thinking about Barbie yeah which
42:21
is you know
42:22
refreshingly not about a woman being yeah it's kind of about
42:26
the fact that you can
42:27
be hot and also other stuff but also it's about like I don't
42:32
know do you think if
42:33
Barbie and Ken really got sent to the real world they would
42:36
come back and be like
42:38
SPEAKER_02: sexist and terrible
42:40
only ken was well i know but like is that really what you think
42:44
ken would get from
42:45
coming into the world that's what i'm questioning too i'm like
42:47
maybe he would be
42:47
like they have some new technology i'm interested in or like i
42:51
learned how to read
42:52
you know yeah well ken also like has never like it's just so
42:56
fucking people are so
42:57
SPEAKER_00: stupid
42:57
Ken has never,
42:59
Ken has never seen a woman that doesn't look like Barbie
43:02
before.
43:02
SPEAKER_00: There's no reason because in Barbie world, everyone's a Barbie.
43:07
And so there's no reason to assume that he would see like you
43:09
or I and be like,
43:10
SPEAKER_00: you know what I mean?
43:12
SPEAKER_00: Like he doesn't know.
43:13
maybe he would assume we too were barbies or like he would like
43:17
find something
43:17
attractive like there's just no the assumption that because he
43:22
dates barbie and has
43:23
lived in barbie universe means that everyone else is not good
43:27
enough in comparison
43:28
is like that's not ken that's saying that that's us that's
43:31
saying that well isn't
43:33
SPEAKER_02: that a profound metaphor
43:35
I did think about Barbie while watching the substance in this
43:38
weird scene.
43:38
SPEAKER_02: So most of the movie takes place in Demi Moore's bathroom,
43:42
SPEAKER_02: which I was like,
43:42
SPEAKER_02: no woman of a certain age has a bathroom with no natural light.
43:45
SPEAKER_02: First of all.
43:46
SPEAKER_00: I mean, that bathroom was also the shower was like a prison stall.
43:50
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
43:51
SPEAKER_02: And it had hospital tile.
43:52
SPEAKER_02: Like it was like a place where you like wash.
43:55
SPEAKER_00: You know what?
43:56
And again,
43:56
I will say like European bathrooms have a lot to learn from
44:00
American bathrooms.
44:01
SPEAKER_00: And that is what was happening there.
44:03
yeah like european people do not have bathrooms in a way that
44:08
you or i would
44:09
recognize as like what a successful woman's bathroom would look
44:11
like when i studied
44:12
abroad at oxford i had a bathroom in my dorm room that had and
44:16
this is common in
44:17
other parts of the world no division between shower and
44:20
anything else so you would
44:21
SPEAKER_02: shower and then the whole bathroom would be wet and like
44:25
so if i showered and then like at any point in the next 12
44:27
hours had to use the
44:28
bathroom i had to like tiptoe over the suds on the floor like
44:32
it was just one of
44:33
the grossest things ever so anyway throughout like sorry like
44:37
in europe if you go
44:38
to like a really fancy restaurant and go to the bathroom it is
44:41
still like the train
44:42
it gets the same as the train station or so it's like it's
44:45
crazy also like toilets
44:47
SPEAKER_02: just don't flush that well in europe these poor people
44:52
And like when my siblings who both live in Europe come home,
44:55
they're like,
44:56
I love this flush.
44:58
SPEAKER_02: Like the toilet in my apartment,
44:59
SPEAKER_02: which is from like 1942,
45:01
SPEAKER_02: uses probably 12 to 17 gallons of water for each flush.
45:05
SPEAKER_02: And it is fantastic.
45:06
SPEAKER_02: Like anything you put in there, it's like, bye.
45:09
SPEAKER_02: Whereas in Europe, it's like,
45:11
you gotta be really careful yeah but anyway so the movie takes
45:14
place in the
45:15
bathroom and I did think it was weird how for the first few
45:17
switchbacks between
45:18
Demi and Margaret Margaret just leaves Demi Moore's body lying
45:22
on the floor of the
45:23
bathroom naked it's like you can't really have company over if
45:25
you have no she has
45:26
SPEAKER_00: a housekeeper yeah
45:28
SPEAKER_02: It's so weird.
45:29
SPEAKER_02: And so anyway, Margaret Qualley at some point kind of comes to that fact.
45:33
And so there's this weird scene where she knocks on the walls
45:37
of all of her rooms.
45:38
SPEAKER_00: Which is how contracting works.
45:42
SPEAKER_02: No, no, I know that.
45:42
SPEAKER_02: But I just thought
45:43
SPEAKER_00: No, no, I'm saying it was not.
45:45
SPEAKER_00: It was, like, so stupid.
45:46
SPEAKER_02: Well,
45:47
SPEAKER_02: but no,
45:47
SPEAKER_02: people...
45:47
SPEAKER_02: I do work in construction,
45:49
SPEAKER_02: and people actually...
45:49
SPEAKER_02: That is,
45:49
SPEAKER_02: like,
45:50
SPEAKER_02: a thing people do.
45:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but she lives in an apartment building.
45:53
It's not like she,
45:53
like...
45:53
She found,
45:54
like,
45:54
a random hidden room in her apartment building.
45:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, that made no sense.
45:59
SPEAKER_00: So then she... It's like those TikToks of people who, like...
46:02
have a hole in their bathroom wall and look in and there's like
46:04
a whole other room
46:04
in their apartment that they didn't know about have you seen
46:06
those basically she
46:10
does that well my it also seemed to be carpeted like i can't so
46:15
anyway margaret
46:16
quali then does this full-on construction project in her
46:19
apartment and at that
46:20
point i wrote down in my notes construction barbie she's
46:23
wearing like hot pink
46:25
SPEAKER_02: wearing um protective glasses and
46:27
SPEAKER_00: And like weirdly,
46:28
whoever the set dresser was like decided that this like
46:32
completely fantasized
46:34
construction project needed all of like the accoutrement of a
46:36
real construction
46:37
SPEAKER_00: project.
46:39
SPEAKER_00: I guess my question is in one or two versus in the substance,
46:44
SPEAKER_00: like to the point of Margaret Qualley's casting,
46:47
like there is a difference in the way that women's physiques
46:52
are received and
46:55
SPEAKER_00: judged today.
46:56
mm-hmm basically I was thinking during it that Margaret Qualley
47:00
like may or may not
47:01
have been miscast we won't get into it because I know we
47:03
disagree on it but miscast
47:06
because she has like a very specific type of physique that I
47:09
didn't think was
47:11
appropriate to what she was supposed to be famous for which is
47:14
like fitness model
47:15
which is a different is today just a different category of
47:18
thing a fitness model is
47:20
SPEAKER_00: like
47:22
SPEAKER_02: I think there's a lot to say about what you're saying.
47:24
I think it all ultimately goes back to the complete lack of a
47:27
coherent cultural
47:29
SPEAKER_02: universe that the movie belonged to.
47:32
Again,
47:33
why is the most famous girl in the world teaching a jazzercise
47:37
class on TV?
47:38
SPEAKER_02: For sure.
47:38
SPEAKER_02: Because you were kind of like...
47:40
SPEAKER_02: She doesn't look like she's teaching that class.
47:43
SPEAKER_02: No.
47:43
And something that I actually thought was really interesting
47:45
about her casting and
47:46
the fact that she doesn't look like she's an exercise coach is
47:50
the fact that I
47:50
SPEAKER_02: think what she's ultimately selling is like her nubile perfect self,
47:57
SPEAKER_02: which no amount of jazzercise could ever give you.
47:59
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
48:00
SPEAKER_02: Like it's classic Hollywood where you could buy the product,
48:04
SPEAKER_02: but it will never make you into Demi Moore.
48:07
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
48:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
48:08
SPEAKER_02: I should...
48:08
SPEAKER_02: And we also said at one point,
48:10
SPEAKER_02: like,
48:10
SPEAKER_02: I should be so lucky as to age like Demi Moore.
48:12
SPEAKER_00: Oh, my God.
48:13
If I was as hot now as Demi Moore at 62 is today,
48:18
like...
48:18
My life would be awesome.
48:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
48:22
SPEAKER_00: But,
48:22
SPEAKER_00: okay,
48:23
SPEAKER_00: my point with bringing this up again,
48:25
SPEAKER_00: because I actually think you're right that it's,
48:26
SPEAKER_00: like,
48:27
SPEAKER_00: not productive to have that conversation,
48:28
SPEAKER_00: maybe,
48:29
SPEAKER_00: is,
48:29
SPEAKER_00: like...
48:31
SPEAKER_00: The difference is that between the 19th century and today is that,
48:35
SPEAKER_00: like,
48:36
SPEAKER_00: so much of Margaret Qualley is on display to us in that movie.
48:39
SPEAKER_00: Like, you're right, we see her ass more than her face.
48:41
SPEAKER_00: That,
48:42
SPEAKER_00: like,
48:42
SPEAKER_00: I'm able to make such a,
48:44
SPEAKER_00: like,
48:45
SPEAKER_00: minute judgment of,
48:46
SPEAKER_00: like,
48:47
SPEAKER_00: oh,
48:47
SPEAKER_00: well,
48:47
SPEAKER_00: she's not quite,
48:48
SPEAKER_00: like,
48:48
SPEAKER_00: muscular enough or something.
48:49
SPEAKER_00: Whereas in the 19th century, you just either were big or small.
48:52
SPEAKER_00: And, like, your shape was kind of determined by your clothing.
48:55
SPEAKER_00: So it was, like, beyond just being, like...
48:59
thin or fat you couldn't you didn't register as like a type in
49:04
the 21st century
49:05
there's so infinite ways that I can be imperfect so even if I
49:10
you know had the
49:12
SPEAKER_02: perfect weight or something if I wasn't toned in a particular way yeah
49:16
SPEAKER_02: I would hate myself like,
49:18
and that's ultimately why I wouldn't take the substance is
49:21
because I know that even
49:23
SPEAKER_02: if I had eight out of 10 things I want,
49:26
SPEAKER_02: there would be two things I didn't have.
49:27
SPEAKER_02: And I would hate myself for those things.
49:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
49:30
SPEAKER_02: Um, which is great.
49:33
SPEAKER_00: Well,
49:33
SPEAKER_00: I'm also thinking about the fact that like,
49:36
SPEAKER_00: like,
49:36
SPEAKER_00: for example,
49:37
SPEAKER_00: like,
49:38
SPEAKER_00: even if I lost 20 pounds,
49:40
SPEAKER_00: I would still like have a short waist.
49:42
SPEAKER_00: And like,
49:42
so clothes still wouldn't fit the way that I wanted them to
49:45
because of the way
49:46
SPEAKER_00: clothes are made now.
49:47
SPEAKER_00: Whereas in the 19th century, all of my clothes would be tailor made.
49:49
SPEAKER_00: It wouldn't matter.
49:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
49:51
So you're saying we should get whole new wardrobes custom made
49:54
to our bodies.
49:54
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
49:55
SPEAKER_02: I would love that.
49:56
I do think that's like a huge,
49:58
I mean,
49:58
that's the thing people talk about.
49:59
SPEAKER_00: I'm not making this up.
50:00
The kind of like internalized corset where like before ready to
50:03
wear became a
50:04
SPEAKER_00: thing,
50:05
it didn't like the way that you compared yourselves to other
50:08
people was less
50:10
SPEAKER_00: systematized because I couldn't be like,
50:12
oh you you were a size small and i'm a size large or whatever
50:16
it's like you know i
50:17
didn't know what size i maybe i knew my measurements but even
50:20
those measurements so
50:21
SPEAKER_00: like variable
50:24
SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
50:24
SPEAKER_02: no,
50:25
like much more well-educated and well-versed fashion historians
50:30
talk about the way
50:31
SPEAKER_02: that standardized sizing creates diet culture too,
50:35
SPEAKER_02: or creates this culture around femininity where,
50:37
SPEAKER_02: yeah.
50:39
SPEAKER_00: Where you have to fit the clothes, the clothes don't have to fit you.
50:42
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
50:43
SPEAKER_02: And the way that sizes are developed are so crazy and inconsistent.
50:47
SPEAKER_00: And, like, to the point of whatever, like, things still not fitting.
50:50
SPEAKER_00: It's,
50:50
SPEAKER_00: like,
50:51
SPEAKER_00: yes,
50:52
SPEAKER_00: like,
50:52
SPEAKER_00: weighing a certain amount or,
50:53
SPEAKER_00: like,
50:53
SPEAKER_00: having a certain amount of,
50:55
SPEAKER_00: you know,
50:55
SPEAKER_00: like,
50:56
SPEAKER_00: muscle in certain places or whatever will adjust that.
50:59
SPEAKER_00: But also, like, my bone structure is different from your bone structure.
51:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
51:03
SPEAKER_00: Like...
51:04
well i have a question yeah well i mean to wrap up that thought
51:08
yeah it's like
51:09
yesterday we both tried on the same pair of pants and like nope
51:12
no pants have ever
51:14
it was the opposite of the sisterhood of the traveling pants
51:18
like no pants have
51:19
SPEAKER_00: ever looked so different on two people
51:21
So one other thing I wanted to talk about that I was thinking
51:23
about during the
51:24
SPEAKER_02: movie,
51:25
SPEAKER_02: and I wrote in my notes,
51:26
SPEAKER_02: you are your daughter's mistakes.
51:29
SPEAKER_00: What is that?
51:30
SPEAKER_02: That's something I thought about.
51:31
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
51:32
SPEAKER_02: Because I guess the sort of elephant in the room is mother-daughter.
51:36
And are Demi Moore and Margaret Qualley comparable to a mother
51:40
and a daughter?
51:41
SPEAKER_00: Well, she says like her mother watched Elizabeth sparkle.
51:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
51:45
SPEAKER_00: Margaret Qualley says that.
51:46
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
51:47
SPEAKER_02: And I guess I was,
51:50
SPEAKER_02: you know,
51:50
SPEAKER_02: maybe it's about split selves and your younger self and your older self.
51:54
SPEAKER_02: But I think the kind of more obvious point of comparison.
51:58
SPEAKER_02: Sue equals use.
51:58
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
52:03
SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
52:03
SPEAKER_02: because I was like,
52:04
why on God's green earth would they name Margaret Qualley's
52:07
character Sue?
52:08
SPEAKER_02: So I was thinking maybe it's an anagram.
52:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
52:11
SPEAKER_02: For use.
52:13
SPEAKER_02: Maybe.
52:14
SPEAKER_02: It's so crazy.
52:15
SPEAKER_02: I was thinking about,
52:17
SPEAKER_02: I mean,
52:17
SPEAKER_02: my experience of womanhood has been a lot about,
52:19
SPEAKER_02: like,
52:20
SPEAKER_02: learning lessons from my mom.
52:22
SPEAKER_02: My mom telling me what she regretted and me trying to work against that.
52:25
SPEAKER_02: Like, because I was thinking about Freaky Friday because there...
52:29
SPEAKER_02: Is,
52:30
SPEAKER_02: you know,
52:30
there is a one scene kind of where they're sort of both
52:33
conscious at the same time
52:34
SPEAKER_02: and they're looking at each other and trying to murder each other.
52:36
SPEAKER_02: And I was thinking about Jamie Lee Curtis and Lindsay Lohan.
52:39
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
52:40
SPEAKER_02: And,
52:40
SPEAKER_02: you know,
52:41
in Freaky Friday when they kind of they run into each other to
52:44
try to switch back.
52:46
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
52:46
SPEAKER_00: And I have to tell you,
52:47
SPEAKER_00: I don't think I've seen the Lindsay Lohan,
52:49
SPEAKER_00: Jamie Lee Curtis version of that movie.
52:51
SPEAKER_00: That is crazy.
52:53
SPEAKER_00: You know, they're making a sequel, right?
52:55
SPEAKER_00: Called Freakier Friday.
52:56
It can't be true that I haven't,
52:58
but the version that is in my memory is the one from the 70s.
53:01
SPEAKER_02: That's so funny.
53:02
SPEAKER_02: Wow.
53:04
SPEAKER_02: I actually saw this mommy influencer who I like,
53:07
SPEAKER_02: um,
53:07
SPEAKER_02: post on her stories,
53:08
videos of herself telling her kids that Lindsay Lohan is one
53:11
person after they
53:12
SPEAKER_02: watched the parent trap.
53:13
And they're like,
53:15
and I just remember so well when I had that epiphany and it
53:19
broke me.
53:19
SPEAKER_02: Wow.
53:20
SPEAKER_02: The kids are crying.
53:21
SPEAKER_02: It's like, why do you share so much?
53:23
SPEAKER_00: She's such an amazing actress.
53:26
Well,
53:27
because we all contain multitudes and it's shocking to see that
53:29
portrayed.
53:30
SPEAKER_00: I think that's what the substance is about.
53:32
SPEAKER_00: We all contain old and young.
53:34
SPEAKER_02: Well,
53:34
SPEAKER_02: and I also wonder,
53:35
like Margaret Qualley is interesting and so is Demi Moore
53:38
because Demi Moore has
53:39
SPEAKER_02: daughters and Margaret Qualley is also the daughter of a famous woman.
53:42
actress and Demi Moore's daughters are not like famous per se
53:44
but they're in the
53:45
public eye yeah and I kind of I why didn't Margaret Qualley's
53:48
mom what's her name
53:50
Andy McDowell yeah Andy McDowell would not get cast as Demi
53:52
Moore that might have
53:53
been more because it was like a humiliating role I'm sure she
53:55
didn't want to do it
53:56
yeah also this is like the Margaret Qualley being so like golly
54:01
of it all like
54:02
that's how Andy McDowell is even more so I think it's so
54:06
charming it's so charming
54:07
I love them but I just don't think it would have worked for
54:09
Elizabeth Sparkle to be
54:10
SPEAKER_00: like
54:11
sweet she has to be so like yeah like sweet tea like yeah andy
54:14
mcdowell is so that
54:17
she's still charming as hell but it just wouldn't have quite
54:21
like i think even the
54:22
margaret quality was like really playing that down about
54:24
herself and it was still
54:25
kind of coming out in ways where i was like what yeah doesn't
54:28
totally make sense
54:29
SPEAKER_00: with this sort of like like sad like lonely la woman
54:35
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
54:37
SPEAKER_00: It's too sociable.
54:38
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
54:39
SPEAKER_02: You know what I was also thinking about?
54:41
How when either you or I write anything,
54:44
we tend to use the phrase like primordial ooze.
54:48
SPEAKER_02: And then we both edit it.
54:49
SPEAKER_02: That does come out a lot.
54:51
we both edit primordial ooze out of one another's writing
54:55
because of course it is
54:56
gratuitous and unnecessary yeah but i at the end of the movie
54:59
no spoiler to me more
55:01
is basically just a face floating in primordial yeah and she's
55:05
just sort of you
55:06
know rolling along the sidewalk um and i thought how great it's
55:10
finally appropriate
55:11
for us to use that phrase yeah i can't wait wait can i ask one
55:15
other question and
55:16
SPEAKER_00: then we can finish
55:18
SPEAKER_00: What do you think was up?
55:19
SPEAKER_00: So basically like in the moments where they're doubling,
55:23
SPEAKER_00: there's this like flashing red,
55:26
SPEAKER_00: like,
55:26
SPEAKER_00: you know,
55:27
SPEAKER_00: like streetlights on the highway.
55:30
SPEAKER_00: Who fucking knows what it was.
55:32
SPEAKER_00: And then it ends with this kind of like gasoline fire,
55:36
SPEAKER_00: like heart,
55:39
SPEAKER_00: this like flaming heart on fire.
55:41
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
55:43
SPEAKER_00: In this like sequence of sort of like abstracted, like road signs.
55:47
SPEAKER_00: You're asking me what I think was going on there.
55:49
I just found it to be so symbolically bizarre that that was
55:54
what the visual for
55:55
SPEAKER_00: this like cellular division.
55:57
Well,
55:58
again,
55:58
this is where I feel like the whole project...
56:00
It's like entropy?
56:01
SPEAKER_02: It was like morally bankrupt or symbolically bankrupt.
56:04
SPEAKER_00: What's your symbol?
56:06
We've been walking around New Haven seeing children wearing
56:10
t-shirts that on the
56:11
SPEAKER_02: back say,
56:11
SPEAKER_02: what's your symbol?
56:12
SPEAKER_00: And we thought it was some sort of cult,
56:14
but it actually turns out that it was God sending us a note
56:16
about this film.
56:18
SPEAKER_02: I don't know what the fuck the symbol was here other than the egg.
56:20
SPEAKER_02: What's your symbol?
56:21
SPEAKER_00: What's your symbol?
56:23
SPEAKER_02: My symbol is I will not be watching this movie ever again.
56:26
But I'm really glad we did this because I think it's fun for us
56:29
to talk about
56:30
SPEAKER_02: things other than the 19th century sometimes.
56:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I would love to do it again sometime.