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The Debut Year in review with Mark Mupotsa-Russell and Kyra Geddes · The Book Deal

• 0:05
  Madeleine: This is the Book Deal podcast, a podcast all about inspiring and motivating writers.
• 0:10
  Madeleine: Where we interview seasoned and debut authors about their own writing, from the blank page to the book deal and beyond.
• 0:17
  Madeleine: We hope these stories will help you to stay positive, focused and carve your own path forward.
• 0:22
  Madeleine: I'm Madeline Cleary.
• 0:23
  Madeleine: And I'm Tina Strachan.
• 0:25
  Madeleine: And this is the Book Deal Podcast.
• 0:31
  Madeleine: The Book Deal Podcast acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters which it's recorded on, and pays respect to their elders past, present, and emerging.
• 0:40
  Madeleine: Welcome to the first of three episodes in our summer series, where Tina and I chat with some of our amazing Australian debut authors who released their books in 2024.
• 0:50
  Madeleine: In this episode, I chat with two of my wonderfully generous fellow Affirm Press authors.
• 0:56
  Madeleine: Kyra Geddes gave up a successful career in marketing to pursue her lifelong dream of writing a novel.
• 1:02
  Madeleine: Her dream was realised when her debut historical novel, The Story Thief, was published in May this year, which was the culmination of almost a decade of research and writing.
• 1:13
  Madeleine: Lovers of historical fiction, art and women's stories will delight in this novel, as it tracks through the 20th century in Australia.
• 1:22
  Madeleine: Mark Mupotsa-Russell's debut novel, The Hit Woman's Guide to Reducing Household Debt.
• 1:28
  Madeleine: And yes, Mark wins the award for best title, won the Affirm Press Mentorship Award in 2023 and was released in September this year.
• 1:37
  Madeleine: I've met Mark in person and I can hand on heart, say he is the nicest human ever, which is why I caught the shock of my life reading his novel.
• 1:45
  Madeleine: And I'm not going to explain that.
• 1:47
  Madeleine: You'll just have to read it and then you'll understand.
• 1:50
  Madeleine: Join us as we chat pathways to publication, rejections, wins, and all the feels when publishing a book for the very first time.
• 1:58
  Madeleine: Kyra and Mark, it's just so great to have you here on the Book Deal Podcast.
• 2:02
  Kyra: for having
• 2:04
  Madeleine (2): us.
• 2:05
  Madeleine (2): I'm just so thrilled.
• 2:07
  Madeleine (2): You probably, we just actually aired an episode today with Ruby Ashby, or you both know is one of the publishers that are fan press, which is our shared publisher.
• 2:16
  Madeleine (2): Um, and she brings up, and it's really, really funny.
• 2:19
  Madeleine (2): Our WhatsApp group, our firm press author, WhatsApp group, which you both are a part of.
• 2:25
  Madeleine (2): Um, and she said that a fan press are all running scared.
• 2:31
  Kyra (2): There's no need for them to be scared.
• 2:33
  Kyra (2): I think just trying to give each other some, um, you know, moral support and just share a bit of experience and hopefully save, save having to ask a lot of the same questions
• 2:43
  Mark: of a firm.
• 2:44
  Mark: Yeah.
• 2:45
  Mark: We're a few steps away from collective bargaining.
• 2:47
  Mark: I think so far.
• 2:49
  Kyra (2): Yes.
• 2:50
  Kyra (2): Quite right.
• 2:50
  Kyra (2): Not
• 2:51
  Madeleine (2): a union by no means.
• 2:53
  Madeleine (2): Well, I'll send, I'll be sure to send this episode to Ruby to just confirm that we're all, we're all good.
• 2:58
  Madeleine (2): We are.
• 2:58
  Madeleine (2): Thank you.
• 2:59
  Madeleine (2): Very much on a firm press aside.
• 3:00
  Madeleine (2): So we love it.
• 3:01
  Madeleine (2): We love
• 3:01
  Kyra: you, Ruby.
• 3:02
  Kyra: We love
• 3:02
  Madeleine (2): you, Ruby.
• 3:04
  Madeleine (2): Um, so I have been watching your experiences from afar.
• 3:08
  Madeleine (2): Um, and so you're both obviously debut authors for this year, and this is still 2024.
• 3:13
  Madeleine (2): So I can say that, um, and that does sound a little bit creepy.
• 3:17
  Madeleine (2): So I thought, well, why not bring you both on so we can have a chat it's end of the year and talk about your experiences so far.
• 3:24
  Madeleine (2): So I think that, um, you know, you've both done so well and, um, I, we all have so much to learn from the both of you.
• 3:31
  Madeleine (2): So I'm very, very excited.
• 3:33
  Madeleine (2): Um, before we jump into some of those experiences that you've had, though, I thought, why not start with the question that all authors just absolutely love and you've probably done to death.
• 3:44
  Madeleine (2): Can you give us your elevator pitches for your novels?
• 3:47
  Madeleine (2): And I might start firstly with Mark.
• 3:50
  Mark: Yeah, sure.
• 3:50
  Mark: Thank you.
• 3:51
  Mark: Yep.
• 3:51
  Mark: You know, this is the thing you hone, the thing you run into at work.
• 3:54
  Mark: Um, so my, my novel is The Hitman's Guide to Reducing Household Debt.
• 3:58
  Mark: Uh, and it's about a suburban mum with a dark past as a contract killer.
• 4:02
  Mark: Uh, she sets out to take revenge on a group of criminals who've wronged her.
• 4:07
  Mark: But she, um, can't kill him directly because she believes that that will bring karmic retribution on her family.
• 4:13
  Mark: So instead she manipulates the men into getting themselves killed through bad personality traits like their anger, ego, and greed.
• 4:20
  Madeleine (2): Oh, I love that.
• 4:21
  Madeleine (2): It is such a wonderful book.
• 4:25
  Madeleine (2): I've read it and loved it.
• 4:26
  Madeleine (2): I've never read anything like it before, so I would highly recommend it to everybody.
• 4:31
  Kyra: Um,
• 4:31
  Madeleine (2): it is, um, Yeah.
• 4:32
  Madeleine (2): I think I messaged you and I was like, Oh, at first I was like, yes, this is going to be a book for my mom.
• 4:36
  Madeleine (2): She was going to love this.
• 4:37
  Madeleine (2): It's got all the references of all my places.
• 4:39
  Madeleine (2): And then I was like, Ooh, this is crazy.
• 4:43
  Madeleine (2): And I love it.
• 4:44
  Madeleine (2): I've got it wrapped under the Christmas tree for my husband.
• 4:49
  Madeleine (2): I know he's.
• 4:49
  Madeleine (2): You love it.
• 4:50
  Madeleine (2): Oh, I was actually just talking with my husband then showing him that the amazing cover and I'm like you this is a book for you.
• 4:57
  Mark: I love to hear it.
• 4:59
  Madeleine (2): Okay, wonderful.
• 5:00
  Madeleine (2): And now Kyra, you have um, a quite a different book, I think to mark this a very, very different book in tone and everything.
• 5:08
  Madeleine (2): So my novel is the story thief.
• 5:10
  Madeleine (2): It's a historical fiction.
• 5:12
  Madeleine (2): And, um, I think the best elevator pitch came from the review I got in the Sydney Morning Herald.
• 5:18
  Madeleine (2): I love it.
• 5:18
  Madeleine (2): They described it as a family saga that doubles as a feminist reimagining of Australian history and literature.
• 5:27
  Madeleine (2): And I'm like, yes, that's exactly right.
• 5:29
  Madeleine (2): Because it is two novels in one.
• 5:31
  Madeleine (2): I kind of wanted to create a, um, a page turning, an emotional novel about one woman's life.
• 5:37
  Madeleine (2): But I also wanted to tell the story of Australia's coming of age in art and literature and as a former British colony.
• 5:45
  Madeleine (2): So, and, and the other part I haven't mentioned there is, um, the whole thing is inspired by Henry Lawson's story, The Drover's Wife.
• 5:52
  Madeleine (2): So it's a feminist retelling of that.
• 5:55
  Madeleine (2): And, uh, yeah.
• 5:56
  Madeleine (2): Lots of layers, lots of layers.
• 5:58
  Madeleine (2): And you just do it so well, Kyra, and we were messaging today, you are a master at historical fiction.
• 6:05
  Madeleine (2): I must say, I can't believe this was a debut novel.
• 6:07
  Madeleine (2): It's an incredible achievement, what you've done.
• 6:11
  Kyra (2): Thank you.
• 6:11
  Kyra (2): That's very, very generous of you coming from a very good writer, as I know you
• 6:15
  Mark: do.
• 6:16
  Mark: Absolutely.
• 6:17
  Mark: It's very generous
• 6:18
  Madeleine: of Kyra to have read a very early draft of my novel, um, which I'm very grateful for.
• 6:23
  Madeleine: So, um, yes, it's, it's amazing to have, you know, a shared journey, I think, in the historical fiction space with a firm.
• 6:30
  Madeleine: So Kyra, maybe we'll continue then with you.
• 6:32
  Madeleine: I'm really interested to know, I suppose, about that journey to publication.
• 6:37
  Madeleine: I've read that it took you 10 years to write the story Thief, and there is an incredible amount of research that's gone into it.
• 6:43
  Madeleine: So do you want to tell us a little bit about that journey and, and when did you know when it
• 6:47
  Kyra: was ready to submit?
• 6:49
  Kyra: Okay.
• 6:49
  Kyra: All right.
• 6:50
  Kyra: Well, the journey, as you said, it was a 10 year journey.
• 6:52
  Kyra: I first got the idea back in 2014 when I was at, um, uni doing my mature age degree in, in English and creative writing.
• 7:02
  Kyra: And we read Henry Lawson's story, The Drover's Wife, uh, in class and some of its best known retellings.
• 7:09
  Kyra: And even though it's a story about, um, you know, a drover's wife who is depicted as the heroine.
• 7:14
  Kyra: She remains unnamed in the story, as do her two daughters.
• 7:18
  Kyra: Um, whereas the two boys are given their names, Jackie and Tommy, and even the family dog is named.
• 7:25
  Kyra: So the story really does beg for a feminist retelling, and there's a very long tradition of those.
• 7:31
  Kyra: And I kind of fancy at the time.
• 7:34
  Kyra: Then there were no novel retellings.
• 7:36
  Kyra: There was only like poems and short stories and songs and things.
• 7:40
  Kyra: So I really kind of fancied the idea of throwing my hat in the ring.
• 7:44
  Kyra: And I thought, if I can, if I can pull off a novel and if I can do it well enough, um, I have a good chance of getting published.
• 7:52
  Kyra: And so I, I was sort of strategic about that decision, and I think that bore out, um, in reality.
• 7:59
  Kyra: Um, but then the sort of secondary inspiration for the novel snuck up on me afterwards, because some things you don't realize at a conscious level.
• 8:08
  Kyra: And it was actually a couple of years into the research and writing, that it occurred to me that, um, it was actually the setting of Henry Lawson's story, which is this like remote outback, uh, setting, red dirt floor, all those sorts of things, is actually really similar to my own first couple of years of life, um, living in the South Australian opal fields with my parents who were adventure seeking German immigrants.
• 8:35
  Kyra: Um, and so I think I saw myself, uh, not in the character, the drover's wife, but in her unnamed infant daughter, and that's who I've called Lily and imagined her life.
• 8:45
  Kyra: So I think that story came for me just as much.
• 8:48
  Kyra: I thought I was in charge, but actually I think it, it found its way to me.
• 8:52
  Kyra: So, yeah, so then it was a very, very long journey, lots and lots and lots of research because, um, The story that I, the fictional story I created, um, was spanning the first half of the 20th century, 1900 to 1954, taking in, you know, both world wars and women's suffrage and all those sorts of huge events, none of which I knew anything about.
• 9:15
  Kyra: So lots of research.
• 9:16
  Kyra: Um, but I just kind of approached the task sequentially.
• 9:20
  Kyra: Chronologically really, I just chapter by chapter and uh, it was about four or five years of actual writing.
• 9:28
  Kyra: Um, and really when I got to the end, um, that's when I felt it was ready.
• 9:33
  Kyra: Maybe it wasn't, but I felt it was ready at that point.
• 9:36
  Madeleine (2): And how many words did you have Kyra?
• 9:38
  Madeleine (2): You've told me this before.
• 9:40
  Kyra: Ah yeah, that's the embarrassing thing.
• 9:41
  Kyra: Um, so this is a family saga, let's be clear.
• 9:44
  Kyra: And so in fact there's still more of the story to be told.
• 9:48
  Kyra: But at that point I had 200, 000 words.
• 9:53
  Kyra: Yeah, yeah, so I had enough for two novels and I was hoping it could be split into two, um, but the clever folk at Affirm deemed, uh, best to put, you know, don't worry about book number two, put all of your effort into making book number one as, um, enjoyable as possible.
• 10:10
  Kyra: So we had to kind of get all of the best bits and cram them into one book, which ended up at 126, 000 words or a bit over 400 pages.
• 10:21
  Madeleine (2): You did very, very well, Mark, I might go to you as well.
• 10:24
  Madeleine (2): You have, um, such an interesting character protagonist in Olivia and, um, has been described as in your book, in your words, hit woman turned suburban working mom,
• 10:35
  Kyra: which I
• 10:35
  Madeleine (2): just think is amazing.
• 10:37
  Madeleine (2): So Kyra was sort of talking about characters developing and changing.
• 10:40
  Madeleine (2): Was Olivia inspired by, or did you have someone in mind or what sort of sparked the inspiration behind the novel?
• 10:47
  Mark: Yeah.
• 10:47
  Mark: Oh, thanks.
• 10:48
  Mark: Um, uh, so.
• 10:50
  Mark: She is, she is basically, uh, me, um, uh, as, as far as sort of, um, maybe the internal monologue or that, or that kind of idea.
• 11:00
  Mark: Um, so she's, she's based on me, but obviously, um, I don't experience the world the way a, um, uh, woman does or a middle, middle aged, um, suburban woman does.
• 11:10
  Mark: So it, it was increasing those kinds of, um, uh, factors, but I have actually had multiple, um, Uh, women in my life, including my wife, ask if she was based on them, which is probably a little concerning, um, but, um, the story started as like, um, it is like, it's about 20 years ago and it was originally going to be a screenplay.
• 11:34
  Mark: It at the time was a hit man.
• 11:35
  Mark: Um, and it was, um, really kind of like this dour existentialist kind of douche thing that I wanted to come up with just out of uni where like, um, there wasn't any real vengeance plot so much as just a guy lurking outside windows, having deep thoughts about retribution and stuff like that.
• 11:54
  Mark: horrible idea.
• 11:55
  Mark: Um, but I didn't feel smart enough to write it.
• 11:57
  Mark: And basically it got to sort of 20 years down the track.
• 12:02
  Mark: Um, and my son was about to be born and I was sort of like, Oh, well, you know, if not now, when kind of thing.
• 12:08
  Mark: Um, and so I just sort of jumped into writing it, but by then I didn't really care about that story anymore.
• 12:14
  Mark: That, that idea of tortured masculinity is so overdone in noir fiction and stuff like that.
• 12:18
  Mark: Um, so I tried to just write something that I'd enjoy.
• 12:21
  Mark: Something that I'd love.
• 12:23
  Mark: Um, and so I've tried to make her funny and, and kind of bitter and sardonic.
• 12:27
  Mark: And, um, the, the, um, her being a woman also factors well into kind of, um, some of the ideas around gender roles and stuff that I'm playing with in the book.
• 12:38
  Mark: Um, but also as just a pure plot contrivance, like, um, uh, it's, it's a very high concept kind of idea, um, as a hit woman, but I, I, you know, it's I wasn't so much interested in the, um, the TV idea that we have of a hit woman.
• 12:53
  Mark: Like, um, uh, a big part, a big kind of, um, uh, inspiration was maybe the movie unforgiven.
• 13:00
  Mark: If you know that, like, um, basically Clint Eastwood took or David Webb peoples who wrote it took the, um, we we'd had 50 odd years of like, the quick draw, um, uh, cowboy and, you know, like the noble sheriff and all this sort of stuff coming in to clean up the dirty town.
• 13:16
  Mark: And they took those and inverted those tropes.
• 13:18
  Mark: So it's not how quick you can draw a gun.
• 13:20
  Mark: It's whether you've, you're drunk enough or sadistic enough to stand there and shoot someone cold bloodedly.
• 13:27
  Mark: Um, and that noble sheriff is actually probably just a fascist.
• 13:30
  Mark: He's trying to like, kind of, you know, insert his will.
• 13:33
  Mark: He's like, Um, because there, there are hit women in the world.
• 13:36
  Mark: There are hit men and hit women.
• 13:37
  Mark: Um, they're not like this, uh, like amazing super assassin that shoots, um, the Russian ambassador from, you know, a kilometer away.
• 13:46
  Mark: It's, it's, it's more commonly, it's someone who works for like these massive crime syndicates and kind of, um, their only real qualification is whether they're willing to do the job, I think, and, um, do it on command.
• 13:58
  Mark: And so I was interested in taking someone who might have that experience.
• 14:03
  Mark: Um, but also have sort of grown up in a not totally dissimilar kind of way to me and it might be someone I know or someone I might meet and, um, just make that character as complex and interesting as possible and really weigh those consequences, like treat those consequences with real gravity.
• 14:19
  Mark: Um, so that, that was kind of what I set out to do, um, but make it fun.
• 14:23
  Madeleine (2): Oh, you did it so well.
• 14:24
  Madeleine (2): That dark humour comes through so, so clearly throughout it.
• 14:28
  Madeleine (2): Your, um, your Google searching then must've been wild.
• 14:31
  Madeleine (2): Like when you were trying to research women and, and all these types of things, international crime.
• 14:36
  Madeleine (2): Very
• 14:36
  Mark: dark, very dark.
• 14:38
  Mark: But I'm also leaning on like about, you know, 30 odd years of, um, uh, crime movies and like being way too into like Scorsese and Michael Mann and like Tarantino and stuff.
• 14:51
  Madeleine (2): Contemporary novels still have very similar kind of styles of research.
• 14:55
  Madeleine (2): Same with the historical fiction of us too.
• 14:57
  Madeleine (2): So you can't discount that.
• 15:01
  Madeleine (2): Um, okay.
• 15:02
  Madeleine (2): Kyra, I think it would be really interesting for our listeners to hear then.
• 15:06
  Madeleine (2): So you've got this manuscript, you've got your 200, 000 words.
• 15:09
  Madeleine (2): You feel like it's ready.
• 15:10
  Madeleine (2): You've spent years developing it.
• 15:12
  Madeleine (2): What,
• 15:13
  Kyra (2): what, what did you do then?
• 15:15
  Kyra (2): So at the end of that, the first thing I did was I did submit to one agent.
• 15:21
  Kyra (2): Um, and it was probably, that was probably a premature decision because I, I did actually have an introduction to one of Australia's top agents.
• 15:29
  Kyra (2): And I think even, Admitting that I had 200, 000 words was probably a big mistake.
• 15:35
  Kyra (2): Um, and she, she did read the sample chapters and she was very polite and she said she had no doubt it would find a home and it was very ambitious project.
• 15:44
  Kyra (2): But at that time she said the writing didn't grab her in the way needed to sell it.
• 15:48
  Kyra (2): But something very interesting happened after that rejection and after I picked myself up off the ground was that I then went and got two manuscript assessments.
• 15:58
  Kyra (2): Um, I actually had one lady, Laurel Cone, who's, um, uh, very well regarded here, and she just read the first 50 pages or so, and I had another lady called Philippa Donovan of Smart Quill, who's London based.
• 16:12
  Kyra (2): I wanted to get a broader perspective.
• 16:14
  Kyra (2): And she read the whole thing.
• 16:15
  Kyra (2): So, you know, I had to put a bit of a financial investment into that assessment.
• 16:20
  Kyra (2): Um, and while those assessments were taking place, I was also doing the Australian Society of Authors Pitch Perfect course.
• 16:30
  Kyra (2): And then I actually did my pitch.
• 16:32
  Kyra (2): So, um, I did the pitch before I'd had the assessments back, and I pitched to Affirm and one other publisher.
• 16:39
  Kyra (2): And Affirm was my preferred publisher because of their success with Pip Williams The Dictionary of Lost Words, and I saw some parallels.
• 16:47
  Kyra (2): So Martin Hughes had come back straight away and said, yep, please send me the sample chapters.
• 16:53
  Kyra (2): And then I said, actually, can I hold off till I've got my assessment?
• 16:57
  Kyra (2): So it ended up being, it was.
• 16:59
  Kyra (2): Nearly was over five months before I, in the end sent him, um, the chapters, which was making me nervous, but, um, yeah, it was sort of a long process because you can't, there was a lot to work with.
• 17:13
  Kyra (2): But the most interesting thing that happened at the very 11th hour, and it was, I just had this.
• 17:20
  Kyra (2): moment where I suddenly thought, Oh, um, you know, here, I've been writing the book for all these years in third person.
• 17:27
  Kyra (2): So we've got one protagonist, Lillian Holdings in close third.
• 17:31
  Kyra (2): Um, and I just thought to myself, I wonder how it would sound in first person.
• 17:36
  Kyra (2): And literally, and I just tested out one scene and it was like, you know, a revelation.
• 17:43
  Kyra (2): I was like, Oh my goodness, it's opened up entirely.
• 17:46
  Kyra (2): Um, The theory behind doing that and I'd even been to point of view courses early on, but it just, it just didn't feel right before.
• 17:54
  Kyra (2): So I did it and I sent that to the assessor and she's like, oh, yes, a lot better.
• 17:59
  Kyra (2): So, in fact, so then I just quickly changed those first 50 pages over.
• 18:05
  Kyra (2): Changing the rest of it took a little longer.
• 18:06
  Kyra (2): It's a big task.
• 18:09
  Kyra (2): So Affirm were the only ones who saw it in that first person perspective, and I sent it to Martin Hughes on the 1st of November of 22, and on the 2nd of November, he came back with the best email I've ever had in my entire life.
• 18:27
  Madeleine (2): One day.
• 18:28
  Madeleine (2): Yeah, one day.
• 18:30
  Madeleine (2): Kyra, I think that's a record.
• 18:32
  Madeleine (2): Yeah, that was.
• 18:33
  Madeleine (2): Yeah,
• 18:34
  Kyra (2): yeah, yeah.
• 18:35
  Kyra (2): It was literally and the email start.
• 18:36
  Kyra (2): I got it at 930 at night, I think and I was just, you know, reading away and then I see this thing and it starts and it says, you know, Kyra, I'm hooked.
• 18:45
  Kyra (2): You know, you're a fabulous writer.
• 18:46
  Kyra (2): This is a great idea and I see great potential at which point, I'm quite a calm person but at this point, I'm not.
• 18:52
  Kyra (2): I literally threw myself off the chair.
• 18:54
  Kyra (2): I was on the ground crying hysterically.
• 18:58
  Kyra (2): The kids run into the room and they're like, mom, are you okay?
• 19:05
  Kyra (2): Was beside myself.
• 19:07
  Kyra (2): So yeah, I have to, that was the best moment of my entire publishing journey.
• 19:12
  Kyra (2): And I don't think anything will ever top that moment for me.
• 19:15
  Madeleine (2): When people say that, they do say that, that yes, because you don't know any of the other things.
• 19:20
  Madeleine (2): Like it's just at that moment, it's just pure joy, isn't
• 19:22
  Kyra (2): it?
• 19:23
  Kyra (2): Of course.
• 19:23
  Kyra (2): And it's, you know, I can't help but crack the joke, but, um, uh, you know, with us having Affirm for a publisher, it honestly was the most affirming moment of my life validating.
• 19:36
  Kyra (2): You just, you know, and I was 10 years into this, so 10 years trying to single mindedly follow the one goal.
• 19:44
  Kyra (2): Um, and had, you know, I did that one knock back, but it hurt.
• 19:49
  Kyra (2): And so, yeah, it was pretty amazing.
• 19:51
  Madeleine (2): And obviously, you know, it's really good though, that you learned from that and you decided there's definitely would have been a temptation to send Martin.
• 19:59
  Madeleine (2): what you had at the time when he was requesting it.
• 20:02
  Madeleine (2): But it's wise and courageous, I think, to say, I'm just going to wait for this assessment.
• 20:07
  Madeleine (2): I'm going to do some extra work and have it ready.
• 20:09
  Madeleine (2): Because often you only do get that one shot with publishers.
• 20:13
  Kyra (2): Yeah, that's right.
• 20:15
  Madeleine (2): Wow.
• 20:16
  Madeleine (2): What an incredible story.
• 20:17
  Mark: Mark,
• 20:18
  Madeleine (2): can you top that?
• 20:19
  Madeleine (2): I don't
• 20:20
  Mark: think so, no.
• 20:21
  Mark: Um, I think it's really taught that, that, um, being on the floor in, uh, in two different versions, you know, like the rejection puts you there and the, um, and the acceptance puts you there.
• 20:33
  Mark: My story is sort of like, um, 20 years and 500 odd rejections.
• 20:39
  Mark: Like I was working through screenwriting, um, multiple, multiple manuscripts.
• 20:45
  Mark: Um, and I'd kind of trained this, um, this reaction in my body, I think of, of sort of like sending something off and just assuming it's a no, like, so, you know, you literally press send and then you, you build the shell immediately.
• 21:01
  Mark: Um, and it is, uh, One of those things of like my, um, my sister in law actually made fun of me for having a Yahoo email address at one stage.
• 21:09
  Mark: So I swapped to a Gmail to be a little bit more professional, which meant that that was purely my writing one, which meant I had a catalog of all my rejections, just like anytime there was an email.
• 21:21
  Mark: I knew it was going to be bad news, which is not a good psychological thing to do.
• 21:25
  Mark: And then it flipped and suddenly, you know, um, in this journey, it's been every time there's been a good news and that's amazing.
• 21:31
  Mark: But basically what it was, was that I, in my mind had, so I entered the Affirm Mentorship, um, uh, award and I'd kind of, um, in my mind, imagined that it, it closed, like that I would have heard back by, you know, X date.
• 21:47
  Mark: And it was sort of two weeks later.
• 21:50
  Mark: Um, and I, so I'd already kind of written that one off and, um, then got this spreadsheet.
• 21:56
  Mark: Yeah.
• 21:56
  Mark: Yeah.
• 21:57
  Mark: Well, the mental spreadsheet, I'm not organized as we've discussed.
• 21:59
  Mark: So, you know, there was, um, but, and then I'd get this email back and I actually.
• 22:05
  Mark: Like it snuck under the shell.
• 22:07
  Mark: It was sort of like that sun, like, Whoa, what's, what's going on.
• 22:10
  Mark: Um, and then that, that was just a wonderful time.
• 22:13
  Mark: And, um, through that, I, I did like a, um, a Veruna, um, uh, retreat, uh, for a week with, um, uh, three other writers who've remained friends, like, um, and their, their books are definitely on, on their way, they're coming.
• 22:29
  Mark: Um, and you know, did the, did this wonderful sort of thing.
• 22:32
  Mark: And then, um, uh, the book actually.
• 22:35
  Mark: There wasn't actually that much, um, that they wanted to change about it.
• 22:39
  Mark: Uh, I, I had like a, um, I think this, this is maybe projection of, of myself, but like, I'd sent it around to a few people and I'd, I'd been rejected, um, without even getting a request for sort of, um, the, the whole manuscript.
• 22:55
  Mark: Um, Whereas friends that I'd send it to who were published authors, beta readers, all that sort of stuff like that were, were like really positive.
• 23:03
  Mark: And I felt like I'd kind of done what I set out to do.
• 23:06
  Mark: Um, and so I didn't really know what.
• 23:08
  Mark: I was, what was happening, like I was, there was clearly something wrong.
• 23:11
  Mark: I think maybe I wasn't pitching the tone, like, cause the, if you describe the, the plot of this, it sounds incredibly dark and, um, and twisted and, and there is a lot of darkness, but the, um, the tone kind of was there.
• 23:23
  Mark: And I think joining, being in that competition, um, meant that they read the whole manuscript, which was sort of like a, or, you know, As much as I gave them, um, which I think was a real kind of boon for me.
• 23:35
  Mark: So, uh, that's a bit of a tip like, um, for any, any emerging authors like competitions, thumbs up.
• 23:41
  Madeleine (2): Yes.
• 23:42
  Madeleine (2): And Tina and I, we sort of battle on about competitions and how important they are.
• 23:48
  Kyra (2): Well, and that certainly worked very well for you recently, Madeline.
• 23:53
  Kyra (2): Well,
• 23:56
  Madeleine (2): we'll see, we'll see if anything comes from it, a
• 23:59
  Kyra (2): long listing alone, or, you know, a selection is incredible.
• 24:03
  Madeleine (2): Yeah.
• 24:03
  Madeleine (2): Yeah, exactly.
• 24:04
  Madeleine (2): And it's, and it's that affirmation, isn't it?
• 24:06
  Madeleine (2): Having that, you know, the validation is very important for a writer.
• 24:11
  Madeleine (2): So Mark, can you tell us a bit more about this mentorship award then?
• 24:16
  Mark: So they, they run it, um, yearly, um, a firm runs it yearly.
• 24:19
  Mark: Yeah.
• 24:19
  Mark: Absolutely.
• 24:20
  Mark: And, um, they kind of switch up the genre, um, each year, although I think they, you know, because Affirm tends to do, um, like historical fiction quite well and, and crime, um, quite well, those, those kind of appear quite regularly in general fiction and stuff like that.
• 24:36
  Mark: And basically you just get, um, uh, the Veruna session, like, like I said, and, um, it's this beautiful, um, uh, old.
• 24:47
  Mark: house in, um, the Blue Mountains that was, um, gifted.
• 24:50
  Mark: I, I think they do give you a historical tour, but at that stage, my eyes were like my skull.
• 24:55
  Mark: So I didn't remember, um, much of it.
• 24:58
  Mark: Um, but it's this gorgeous kind of place where, um, it sounds so simple and anyone who's been on a writing retreat will know what I'm talking about, but just having your meals cooked for you.
• 25:09
  Mark: And a place to kind of work, um, and not being there to be worried about like kind of, um, you know, kids, if you've got them or chores or, you know, all that sort of stuff, the amount you can get done and, and that focus time and being around with other people, you know, we, we, Had, um, uh, five o'clock wines down by the, you know, the, um, fireplace and stuff like that.
• 25:31
  Mark: And just chatting over riding and it creates that energy and yeah, it's just amazing.
• 25:36
  Mark: It's so Varun is this beautiful place.
• 25:39
  Mark: If you, if you get any chance to go there, um, they, they run things.
• 25:43
  Mark: Throughout the year, and you can just pay to go, um, you don't have to necessarily win something, um, you just have to pick your time.
• 25:50
  Mark: But basically we were there with two editors, um, uh, Laura Franks was sort of working on mine and she, she's, um, I was working with her and Ruby.
• 26:01
  Mark: Ashby or, um, uh, for the actual book.
• 26:05
  Mark: So they, they kind of shared duties there, but basically they gave like a structural, um, edit and then just sort of worked on stuff, um, throughout the week.
• 26:14
  Mark: And then at the end of that week, or maybe a couple of days before you resubmitted to sort of, or no, you chatted.
• 26:20
  Mark: And then you basically, after the mentorship, you had three months to, um, uh, resubmit.
• 26:28
  Mark: And, uh, kind of maybe, maybe get a chance of being published.
• 26:32
  Mark: And, um, so I, I was lucky enough to sort of resubmit it a few weeks after we finished and, um, uh, and yeah, got that is
• 26:40
  Madeleine (2): the most amazing opportunity to have that time pre-publication, spend it with some very experienced editors and have that opportunity.
• 26:49
  Madeleine (2): Wow, that's incredible.
• 26:50
  Madeleine (2): It's
• 26:50
  Mark: astounding.
• 26:50
  Mark: And, and even having the, you know, because you're eating dinner together as well, so you can talk shop a little bit.
• 26:56
  Mark: You know, we, we all.
• 26:58
  Mark: I assume you're kind of similar to me.
• 26:59
  Mark: Like I, I chew up these like author interviews and stuff like that.
• 27:03
  Mark: And for years I'd been like consuming every podcast and stuff that I could.
• 27:08
  Mark: Um, and so I think I had a better idea than maybe the average person of how publishing works.
• 27:13
  Mark: But once you actually get into it, it's different, completely different yet again.
• 27:17
  Mark: And, um, getting a window into it over dinner was over a delicious dinner I might add, um, uh, was pretty, pretty wonderful.
• 27:25
  Madeleine (2): Amazing.
• 27:26
  Madeleine (2): How did you find the editorial experience, Kyra, going from your 200, 000 word manuscript as well?
• 27:33
  Madeleine (2): It would have been, yeah, quite interesting.
• 27:36
  Kyra (2): Slightly traumatic, I have to admit.
• 27:38
  Kyra (2): Um, I, uh, I'm very jealous, Mark, that you got to go to Varuna as well.
• 27:43
  Kyra (2): I did try to get, get in there in the past, and it's ironic because it was actually the, um, The home of Eleanor Dark, the great Australian female writer, Eleanor Dark, and one of her novels is called Little Company, and in my book, in The Story Thief, Lillian reads Little Company, and she quotes from it, actually.
• 28:01
  Kyra: Oh,
• 28:02
  Kyra (2): wow.
• 28:02
  Kyra (2): Yeah, yeah.
• 28:03
  Kyra (2): Yeah, because it's quite funny, actually.
• 28:05
  Kyra (2): Well, no, I won't go there, because it's a bit Vera, I feel like you could give the, the tours at Veruna, the historical tours.
• 28:10
  Kyra (2): Absolutely.
• 28:10
  Kyra (2): I know, I know, and I've done a conversation, actually, with Amy Sandbrook, who was the former, um, sort of head of Veruna, so, Yeah, no, lovely place.
• 28:19
  Kyra (2): But I'm also jealous because you got to have dinner with Laura Franks because Laura was my editor, my structural editor at Affirm together with Kelly Doust.
• 28:27
  Kyra (2): So Kelly's based in Sydney and Laura and the rest of, most of the rest of the team are in Melbourne.
• 28:33
  Kyra (2): Um, and, uh, so yeah, I worked with Laura and Kelly and look, it was a really hard process for me because that book was so big.
• 28:41
  Kyra (2): So literally the, um, you know, I thought that, you know, when I, All got excited and then I got signed on all very quickly.
• 28:50
  Kyra (2): I was hoping that, um, a firm would be able to then read the whole manuscript and, you know, give me a structural edit.
• 28:58
  Kyra (2): But understandably, I can understand resource wise, I think they said, okay, you need to have the first pass at it.
• 29:04
  Kyra (2): And the task I was given was to turn my 200, 000 words into 100, 000.
• 29:10
  Kyra (2): And that was very stressful.
• 29:12
  Kyra (2): And, you know, it wasn't that I was allowed to just simply split it into two novels.
• 29:16
  Kyra (2): I was told put all the best parts in.
• 29:19
  Kyra (2): So, um, which made sense and, and makes for a better final read, but it was a hard task for me because I was so close to it.
• 29:27
  Kyra (2): So what I did was I took that 200, 000.
• 29:30
  Kyra (2): I looked for, um, a possible earlier end point, like that would have a satisfying arc.
• 29:38
  Kyra (2): Um, and so that was at about the 160, 000 word mark.
• 29:43
  Kyra (2): So I put the last 40, 000 words away for a rainy day.
• 29:46
  Kyra (2): They're still waiting for me.
• 29:48
  Kyra (2): Um, and then I, Over three months or something, I turned 160, 000 into 130, 000.
• 29:57
  Kyra (2): At which point I threw up my hands and I said, I just can't do any more.
• 30:00
  Kyra (2): Somebody has got to help me now.
• 30:03
  Kyra (2): Um, and so that's when Kelly and Laura did their structural edit and they took a couple of months for that and came back with, um, 130 had been cut down to 105.
• 30:16
  Kyra (2): Wow.
• 30:17
  Kyra (2): Yeah.
• 30:18
  Kyra (2): Yeah.
• 30:18
  Kyra (2): It was like packing up my limbs, you know, forget my darlings, my limbs were gone.
• 30:24
  Kyra (2): And, um, so, and what they did was very clever.
• 30:29
  Kyra (2): It's interesting for people to hear about it because, um, I had just worked through these 54 years of history chronologically, but also time moved in different ways.
• 30:41
  Kyra (2): So if you think of our life, of our own lives as chapters of life, there are periods of time where things slow down and periods where it speeds up.
• 30:49
  Kyra (2): And so I would skip over certain years and then I might have a few scenes or chapters that were in one particular year.
• 30:57
  Kyra (2): But we move.
• 30:58
  Kyra (2): Relatively reason, you know, relatively consistently through time.
• 31:01
  Kyra (2): What Affirm's edit did instead was, um, compress it into three more distinct timeframes into more of that classic three act structure, which I don't think I really understood, never got really taught that particular way, um, at uni or in any of my classes.
• 31:19
  Kyra (2): So they took out a lot of the early chapters where my character Lilian was a child, um, and, you know, put her more on the cusp of womanhood.
• 31:28
  Kyra (2): Then they put her as a young woman, and then later on we hit the World War II years.
• 31:32
  Kyra (2): So they cut lots of, cut lots and lots, but then they also asked me to write some new material, um, in certain areas, and they would say things like, you know, this character is too peripheral, you need to have more scenes with her.
• 31:45
  Kyra (2): So I then had to, um, well, really wrap my head around all of those changes.
• 31:51
  Kyra (2): It was very hard to take it in, in order to know it.
• 31:55
  Kyra (2): What, you know, I wanted to agree with everything, but I also, you know, when you know your book as well, you know, sometimes some of the emotional weight needs to be given enough space as well.
• 32:04
  Kyra (2): So I took about two weeks to kind of process it.
• 32:09
  Kyra (2): And then I came back and said, okay, I can do all of that.
• 32:12
  Kyra (2): But.
• 32:12
  Kyra (2): For XYZ, could we please have some flashback scenes or put some more things in?
• 32:18
  Kyra (2): Um, and so then the 105 went back to 130, didn't it, by the time I got through my next two months of writing?
• 32:26
  Kyra (2): And then it went to copy, edit, and then And they only dropped 5, 000.
• 32:30
  Kyra (2): So yeah, we ended up at 126.
• 32:32
  Kyra (2): So it was, look, I was always very, whatever you call it, clean on the line.
• 32:37
  Kyra (2): You know, I, I, I can certainly, I don't need too much assistance with grammar or anything like that.
• 32:42
  Kyra (2): I'm quite fastidious, but, um, structurally a firm did a brilliant job in making it.
• 32:49
  Kyra (2): Improving the pacing of the novel and making it more page turning because a lot of people have said to me, Oh, I couldn't put it down.
• 32:57
  Kyra (2): You know, it's a page turner.
• 32:58
  Kyra (2): And I was really stunned at the beginning because I, I don't, I never thought I'd be capable of a page turner because that's not really the type of person I am.
• 33:07
  Kyra (2): Um, I'm kind of more expansive than Um, so I am very grateful for that result, but yeah, it is a team effort at that point.
• 33:16
  Kyra (2): And, um, the, the hours that I had to put in last year doing the editing were inhumane.
• 33:22
  Kyra (2): Um, and you know, I can, I know you've been unwell Madeline as well, but you know, I had diverticulitis and I had like swollen eyes and my back was, it was not good.
• 33:32
  Kyra (2): It was not good and not sustainable.
• 33:35
  Kyra (2): And so this year has been no writing at all.
• 33:38
  Kyra (2): It's just been promoting.
• 33:40
  Madeleine (2): And you've been doing that very well,
• 33:41
  Kyra (2): Kyra.
• 33:42
  Kyra (2): You are a master at that, I must say.
• 33:45
  Mark: Agreed.
• 33:45
  Mark: That was my former,
• 33:47
  Kyra (2): that was my former career, marketing and business, so that part's easy for me.
• 33:51
  Kyra (2): That's really easy for me compared to the writing.
• 33:54
  Madeleine (2): Well, before we move on to Mark, maybe do you want to talk a little bit about Your experience promoting and any tips you have for, for debut authors for next year?
• 34:02
  Kyra (2): Oh, you know, look, there's a saying, I wasn't in advertising, I was in marketing, but there's a saying in advertising that says, I know that at least half of my advertising budget is wasted, but I don't know which half.
• 34:16
  Kyra (2): And that's probably what I would say about my efforts this year.
• 34:20
  Kyra (2): I know that not everything I'm doing is going to pay off.
• 34:24
  Kyra (2): Now, whether that's social media or whether that's doing library events or, um, you know, trying to get articles in things, I know that as a whole, what I am doing is working.
• 34:37
  Kyra (2): So, uh, you know, so it just depends how much time you've got to put in really.
• 34:42
  Kyra (2): So, um, it comes down to what you enjoy, what you've got the time for.
• 34:48
  Kyra (2): Um, you know, it is a luxury that I have had this time for it.
• 34:51
  Kyra (2): And I imagine if you.
• 34:52
  Kyra (2): Trying to hold down a job.
• 34:54
  Kyra (2): There's no way on earth you could put in as much effort as I've done into events and publicity this year, but you know, I figured 10 years in warrants at least one year of promotion.
• 35:05
  Kyra (2): That was my logic.
• 35:07
  Kyra (2): I like to leave no stone unturned and have no regrets.
• 35:11
  Madeleine (2): No, I think you've done an amazing job and it's, it's definitely something common and we've heard spoken about.
• 35:17
  Madeleine (2): You get your one month after the book's released, you get where you are the buzzy book for that month and then afterwards things do start to drop off and it's really comes to you, the individual to keep things progressing and because people do put their hearts and souls into these novels, it can be really.
• 35:35
  Madeleine (2): awful to, to watch that attention drop and slide.
• 35:37
  Madeleine (2): So trying to maintain the momentum, I think is really amazing.
• 35:41
  Kyra (2): And the, in fact, the piece of advice I would give with that, it's just a general business thing though, is take each of your wins.
• 35:48
  Kyra (2): When you get a win, whether it's a good review in the newspaper, take that win and use that to unlock the door to the next step.
• 35:55
  Kyra (2): So if you get that good piece of news, well then quickly write to your local libraries and say, this has happened.
• 36:01
  Kyra (2): I'm available for an author talk or, you know, so just take one win and use it to, to fuel the next one.
• 36:08
  Madeleine (2): Oh, that's a great tip.
• 36:09
  Madeleine (2): And actually it leads nicely into my next question for Mark before we move on to our rapid fire, which I'm very excited about on big wins.
• 36:18
  Madeleine (2): So let me just read this here.
• 36:20
  Madeleine (2): The Hitwoman's Guide to Reducing Household Debt is a spectacular debut thriller and has already secured a huge preemptive screen deal with a major producer.
• 36:30
  Madeleine (2): So when are you retiring on your millions Mark?
• 36:33
  Mark: We, we, we got a little while to go on that.
• 36:35
  Mark: We, it's all, it's all a little bit, um, uh, preemptive is probably a good word for the general as well.
• 36:44
  Mark: Like, you know, it's, it's, um, An astounding sort of thing.
• 36:47
  Mark: It came out of nowhere a little bit back in like, um, February or March.
• 36:51
  Mark: Um, so pre
• 36:53
  Madeleine (2): publication.
• 36:54
  Madeleine (2): Yeah.
• 36:54
  Mark: Yeah.
• 36:55
  Mark: Some international scouts got a hold of the manuscript.
• 36:57
  Mark: Like basically they, they saw the books in publishing, um, which is just a trade publication for anyone who doesn't know, um, uh, like announcement, which almost every kind of Book that gets traditionally published in Australia, kind of gets a little thing mentioned in books and publishing about it.
• 37:13
  Mark: So it was really strange that for whatever reason, I think the title probably had a bit to do with it.
• 37:18
  Mark: It kind of picked up a bit of interest and out of nowhere, there was suddenly a bunch of people interested.
• 37:24
  Mark: And, um, uh, so some, some, yeah, some pretty major people have grabbed it, which is, Astounding.
• 37:32
  Mark: Um, uh, I, I'm, I'm not allowed to sort of say anything about it, but it, it led to a whole bunch of me just staring out windows kind of, um, uh, gazing like, uh, it just, uh, landed Marlon or whatever.
• 37:46
  Mark: It was, um, it was, yeah, weird.
• 37:49
  Madeleine (2): It's kind of like the author's pinnacle dream, isn't it?
• 37:52
  Madeleine (2): It's
• 37:53
  Mark: to have your,
• 37:54
  Madeleine (2): your novel that what you've imagined on a screen.
• 37:57
  Mark: It it was, it was really that like, um, just inability to process any of it.
• 38:02
  Mark: And it's, it, it was that inversion of the, like the bad news email, like, because it was also the, um, because it was kind of.
• 38:10
  Mark: Multiple people in different countries, like I was literally waking up the next day to a whole bunch of good news.
• 38:16
  Mark: Like, so it was, it was a very, very intense period, but it was so wonderful and fun.
• 38:22
  Madeleine (2): Amazing.
• 38:23
  Kyra (2): And you're an overnight success, Mark.
• 38:24
  Kyra (2): It only took 20 years.
• 38:26
  Kyra (2): Yes,
• 38:26
  Mark: exactly, exactly.
• 38:27
  Mark: Yeah.
• 38:29
  Mark: First step, first step of the plane.
• 38:31
  Madeleine (2): Okay, so this is an amazing story for our aspiring authors here.
• 38:36
  Madeleine (2): So Mark, 500 rejections, your mental spreadsheet, right?
• 38:39
  Madeleine (2): Yeah,
• 38:39
  Mark: that's, that's a complete guess, but it is not by any means like an exaggeration.
• 38:44
  Mark: Like you could probably knock 250 of those out.
• 38:47
  Mark: Of like how appropriate they were, you know, I was, I was too gung ho, or like I sent it to someone who would never have picked it up no matter what and stuff, but it's, it's multiple manuscripts all around the world, like, yeah, agents and publishers.
• 39:01
  Madeleine (2): So right time, right place.
• 39:03
  Madeleine (2): And I know we've talked on the podcast before about timing during COVID everyone wanted light and fluffy, maybe dark sort of.
• 39:12
  Madeleine (2): Dark humor even was not something they wanted.
• 39:14
  Madeleine (2): And then slowly things start to change.
• 39:16
  Madeleine (2): So
• 39:17
  Kyra: you've
• 39:18
  Madeleine (2): got to persist and to have that faith, I think, in your writing and your manuscript is amazing.
• 39:22
  Madeleine (2): So, and now you have a, let me read it, a huge preemptive screen deal with.
• 39:30
  Mark: Yeah, just astounding.
• 39:31
  Mark: I did actually hear, um, uh, like I don't, I don't mean to put it in the category as this, but like, um, uh, Rebecca talked about like, um, Uh, she could tell, like, she thought of Yellow Face as her COVID novel and she could always tell a COVID novel because it was very ranty and kind of like, um, like in this bizarre kind of bitter, uh, comedic tone sort of thing.
• 39:54
  Mark: So I do think maybe there was a slot for a whole bunch of those kind of coming out.
• 39:58
  Mark: Like,
• 39:59
  Madeleine (2): yes, that kind of, yeah.
• 40:01
  Madeleine (2): Oh, that's a really good comparison.
• 40:04
  Madeleine (2): Um, well, we have now some rapid fire questions, which I'm just super excited about.
• 40:10
  Madeleine (2): Um, we're going to keep these short and sharp, and this is kind of like a, year in review, some of your challenges, experiences, and some tips I think for us for next year as well.
• 40:22
  Madeleine (2): So I'm going to start, we'll see how this goes.
• 40:27
  Madeleine (2): I'll start with Kyra.
• 40:29
  Madeleine (2): What was the best part for you of this whole experience?
• 40:32
  Kyra (2): The best part was the realization of a lifelong dream.
• 40:36
  Kyra (2): Um, Which for me, writing is all about legacy.
• 40:40
  Kyra (2): And so, you know, whatever happens going forward, um, I was here, this was me, here are my words.
• 40:48
  Kyra (2): Love it.
• 40:49
  Kyra (2): Mark?
• 40:50
  Mark: Uh, yeah.
• 40:50
  Mark: So it was the chat, it was a dual thing of chatting with Ruby and chatting with some, a person on the screen side, just basically these incredibly smart people who were taking my work seriously and like looking at the stuff.
• 41:04
  Mark: That I'd, I'd tried to lay in under the surface and, and kind of engaging with that.
• 41:09
  Mark: And there was nothing to top that.
• 41:11
  Mark: Like the immediate kind of thing was
• 41:12
  Madeleine (2): amazing.
• 41:13
  Madeleine (2): Side question.
• 41:14
  Madeleine (2): Who came up with the title?
• 41:16
  Mark: Uh, so that, that was a bit of a mess.
• 41:18
  Mark: So like basically, um, I had a title that they didn't like at the mentorship.
• 41:24
  Mark: Um, and then I talked to my agent and she said, I'll pull a, um, a title from the actual, just a line of dialogue or something.
• 41:31
  Mark: So it was called sinners like me for a little while, which is.
• 41:35
  Mark: an okay title and everything.
• 41:36
  Mark: And then I got like, um, down the track, I'd get this kind of like slight borderline sheepish email from Ruby saying, we're looking at kind of, um, cover options and, uh, they're all coming back a little bit BDSM y.
• 41:50
  Mark: She's like, can you come up with something that's a little bit more humorous and reflects the like millennial narrator, that tone sort of thing.
• 41:57
  Mark: And so I spent a weekend just coming up with a lot of bad ideas.
• 42:00
  Mark: And then that was the one that really hit.
• 42:03
  Madeleine (2): Okay.
• 42:04
  Madeleine (2): What about you Kyra?
• 42:05
  Madeleine (2): Oh,
• 42:06
  Kyra (2): with titles?
• 42:07
  Kyra (2): Yeah, was the story thief always going to be the title?
• 42:10
  Kyra (2): No, no.
• 42:11
  Kyra (2): And in fact, no, that was Kelly Doust and it is a great title because I do have the line in there.
• 42:17
  Kyra (2): So my character believes Henry Lawson stole her family story, which is why he's the story thief.
• 42:23
  Kyra (2): Um, but no, I had, um, My titles were a bit more arty and a bit more romantic.
• 42:28
  Kyra (2): So I had Woman in a Landscape, which is the name of the Russell.
• 42:32
  Kyra (2): Yes, I know exactly.
• 42:34
  Kyra (2): This is why they don't give me these, this job.
• 42:36
  Kyra (2): So it was a Russell Drysdale painting, which is my second sort of inspiration.
• 42:41
  Kyra (2): And then my other title came, was a line from Lawson's story, Castles in the Air, which has great metaphoric significance, but it does sound a bit Mills and Booney.
• 42:52
  Kyra: So,
• 42:52
  Kyra (2): um, yeah, no, it could
• 42:53
  Madeleine (2): have had.
• 42:54
  Madeleine (2): Very sort of, you know, different romantic kind of looking covers, if you'd go for that.
• 42:59
  Madeleine (2): Yes,
• 43:00
  Kyra: absolutely.
• 43:02
  Madeleine (2): Okay, what was the biggest challenge or
• 43:05
  Kyra (2): difficulty
• 43:06
  Madeleine (2): and Kyra, we'll keep with you.
• 43:08
  Kyra (2): I think for me, it was just the time sacrificed from family and friends and from just life in general.
• 43:18
  Kyra (2): The more I had to devote to this book, especially during that year of editing, um, it just felt like everything else in life was pushed to the back burner and it is a big sacrifice.
• 43:30
  Kyra (2): Definitely.
• 43:30
  Madeleine (2): Definitely.
• 43:31
  Mark: Uh, for me, social media, I, I'm not naturally a social media person.
• 43:35
  Mark: I joined Instagram about eight months before the book came out so that I could build up whatever amount of following I could have.
• 43:41
  Mark: Um, but like particularly around the launch, I just felt this thing of like needing to respond to everyone and like everything and pass on everything and like, You know, my wife still has to do all of my pictures.
• 43:52
  Mark: Like I, I take a bad picture and then send it to her and she tweaks it to make it good.
• 43:56
  Mark: So any, any quality you see on my feed, it's all my wife.
• 44:01
  Madeleine (2): Noted.
• 44:02
  Madeleine (2): I think social media is a tough one for a lot of authors.
• 44:05
  Madeleine (2): It's yeah, it's, it can be very addictive.
• 44:07
  Madeleine (2): I'm technically on a break, but I keep breaking that break.
• 44:11
  Mark: I heard your tip.
• 44:12
  Mark: Yeah.
• 44:13
  Mark: Oh, if I, the one tip I have, it, it doesn't, like properly work, but it's the, if you go on there with the intention of having fun, you give up almost immediately.
• 44:23
  Mark: Cause if you like, it's all about like the scroll, you know, like you're not actually looking for anything.
• 44:28
  Mark: If you actually try and look for something, you immediately go, this is all nothing.
• 44:32
  Mark: Yes.
• 44:32
  Mark: So yeah, I found that to help.
• 44:35
  Madeleine (2): It's been good for creating a community.
• 44:37
  Madeleine (2): I think that's been the highlight for me with Instagram, but yeah, everything else around it, it's, it's a lot.
• 44:43
  Mark: Yeah.
• 44:43
  Mark: Um,
• 44:45
  Madeleine (2): so Mark, what surprised you the most then?
• 44:47
  Mark: Um, how far are the authors will go for you?
• 44:50
  Mark: Like, um, uh, everyone seems nice, obviously, um, in the interviews and, and they, and, Everyone is so lovely, but like the things you are asking of them, like to blurb your book, which will take hours of reading or to handle your event.
• 45:05
  Mark: Like everyone has been so wonderful.
• 45:07
  Mark: Like all of the authors that have blurred my book, um, uh, brilliant.
• 45:11
  Mark: And I did a couple of events, multiple events where people have come in to sort of ask me questions and it's such an investment of time.
• 45:17
  Mark: And like, you do want to pay it forward.
• 45:19
  Mark: I want to make sure that I'm doing it as well, but it just really impressed me how quickly people just said yes.
• 45:26
  Madeleine (2): Just people love this industry so much.
• 45:28
  Madeleine (2): I think.
• 45:28
  Mark: Yeah, I think you're right.
• 45:30
  Mark: Yeah.
• 45:30
  Kyra (2): I think you're a pretty likable guy too, Mark.
• 45:33
  Kyra (2): I think
• 45:35
  Mark: it's all a facade.
• 45:36
  Mark: So you like the killer.
• 45:38
  Mark: I don't
• 45:38
  Madeleine (2): believe it.
• 45:40
  Madeleine (2): And people can't see the video, but Mark is just smiling so broadly.
• 45:47
  Madeleine (2): And what about you, Kyra?
• 45:48
  Madeleine (2): And now
• 45:48
  Kyra (2): he's blushing.
• 45:50
  Kyra (2): Yeah, I don't know what you're
• 45:51
  Mark: talking about.
• 45:54
  Kyra (2): Yeah, no, I would agree, actually.
• 45:56
  Kyra (2): Surprise and delight was just how lovely and welcoming the Australian author community has been.
• 46:03
  Kyra (2): Um, you know, I always had writer buddies all along, but it is a big jump, you know, crossing that divide from aspiring to published authors.
• 46:11
  Kyra (2): Um, But it's not, it's not a, you know, they're not cliquey.
• 46:15
  Kyra (2): People are very nice and welcoming of debut authors.
• 46:18
  Kyra (2): And yeah, I've got so many new friends that I've made, a lot of whom I started the connections actually on social.
• 46:24
  Kyra (2): So yeah, I think that's the upside of social media was you can actually make connections, particularly with authors, I think, because we're writers.
• 46:33
  Kyra (2): So you can actually send a direct message to someone and just start a little bit of dialogue and just see how people do comment.
• 46:40
  Kyra (2): And you get a feel for what kind of a person they are.
• 46:42
  Kyra (2): I think.
• 46:44
  Madeleine (2): That's a really interesting insight.
• 46:45
  Madeleine (2): I've never thought of that before, but I agree.
• 46:47
  Madeleine (2): Yeah.
• 46:47
  Madeleine (2): You can get an insight into that.
• 46:49
  Kyra (2): Uh,
• 46:50
  Madeleine (2): Kyra, do you read your Goodreads reviews or any, or your reviews generally?
• 46:54
  Madeleine (2): And, and should we be reading them next year?
• 46:57
  Kyra (2): Yes, I do read them.
• 46:58
  Kyra (2): I mean, you know, I've been really lucky in that I've had very, very few negative reviews.
• 47:06
  Kyra (2): And so there are so few that I'm able to, you know, kind of write them off as an aberration, which is good.
• 47:14
  Kyra (2): Um, I think the first time I did just before the release, I think I did read a review that came out.
• 47:21
  Kyra (2): It was on social media and the comments were really positive, but then they gave it three stars.
• 47:27
  Kyra (2): And I remember Um, I actually had this overwhelming sensation that I wanted to go into my bed and hide under the doona, and I literally, that is not something I would normally say.
• 47:38
  Kyra (2): And, and I think it was just that first time though, where, like you said Mark, you've got to steel yourself for the neg, for the rejection that's coming.
• 47:46
  Kyra (2): So I've been, you know, very, I was very steeled early on.
• 47:49
  Kyra (2): Um.
• 47:50
  Kyra (2): Luckily, I haven't needed to be.
• 47:52
  Kyra (2): I reckon the most scary was when I was fortunate enough to get a full page review in The Weekend Australian.
• 47:58
  Kyra (2): And when I was reading that, I was so nervous.
• 48:01
  Kyra (2): I literally could not feel my extremities, like my hands or my feet.
• 48:06
  Kyra (2): And thankfully, you know, there are a couple of qualifying remarks in there, which I agree with, but overall, it was really positive.
• 48:12
  Kyra (2): And basically I thought, well, if they're going to give me a positive review, I can live with anything else that comes after this.
• 48:19
  Kyra (2): So good reads.
• 48:20
  Kyra (2): Doesn't scare me.
• 48:23
  Madeleine (2): What about you, Mark?
• 48:24
  Mark: Yeah, I think, um, I think maybe, so I had an author friend kind of mention, Oh, um, I think the books, the book seems to be going really well.
• 48:33
  Mark: You can tell from how many, um, uh, Goodreads quotes, Goodreads reviews there are.
• 48:37
  Mark: And I, so I immediately, like I'd been avoiding it up to that point.
• 48:40
  Mark: And I immediately went on there.
• 48:42
  Mark: What's a good amount.
• 48:43
  Mark: And then I was trying to check into stuff.
• 48:45
  Mark: I think if you can, if you've got a bit of a bank up of reviews on there, I think it is worth going on at one stage.
• 48:54
  Mark: If only to see how incredibly subjective that stuff is, because like I got this stream and like, it hurts, like there, there is negative stuff.
• 49:03
  Mark: It's always going to hurt when you're doing something super personal.
• 49:06
  Mark: I I've.
• 49:07
  Mark: got like a reasonably varied kind of thing on there, um, that I've seen anyway.
• 49:11
  Mark: I haven't, haven't gone in there in a while, but like, as I was reading through, I'd get like, um, Oh, this book's hilarious.
• 49:17
  Mark: And then the next one is like, I can't believe, like there wasn't a single funny joke in this.
• 49:22
  Mark: Um, Oh, this is a, this is a mix of like amazing tones and like, how did it, how did the balance work so well?
• 49:28
  Mark: This book doesn't know what it's meant to be, you know, all that sort of stuff.
• 49:31
  Mark: And just immediately going like, this is, this is a personal thing.
• 49:35
  Mark: And, and like, I have had more positive ones and, and the, the, um, like the professional critics and stuff like that have, have been very kind to the book and stuff like that.
• 49:46
  Mark: And I think they've seen what, uh, at least what I was trying to do.
• 49:49
  Mark: Um, but I think Goodreads isn't, is a reader space, not an author space, because we would not.
• 49:57
  Mark: Talk.
• 49:57
  Mark: Well, I know there are some bad authors who have done this stuff in the past, but I think as a general community, the author community would not talk about each other's books this way, because we know what's behind it.
• 50:09
  Mark: And we know that you don't talk With very rare exceptions, you don't set out to write a shit book.
• 50:15
  Mark: You don't set out to write like, um, a half, a cynical book.
• 50:19
  Mark: I think that's the one that maybe people react more badly to.
• 50:22
  Mark: Like you don't mind a book that swings for the fences and misses, but if a book is kind of hitting kind of just the basic notes, very few people I think are actually setting out to write those sorts of books.
• 50:33
  Mark: Most of the time you're trying to put something interesting in there and we just wouldn't hurt each other's feelings that way, because it does hurt.
• 50:42
  Madeleine (2): Yeah.
• 50:42
  Madeleine (2): And especially, um, I think when authors are tagged on social media for a negative review, I think it's totally fine.
• 50:49
  Madeleine (2): If you've got a different subjective opinion and you didn't enjoy the book, that's fine.
• 50:53
  Madeleine (2): Engage.
• 50:54
  Madeleine (2): And I think I've heard, um, so it's having a, a beer with Robbie Arnott, which was amazing after one of his events.
• 51:00
  Madeleine (2): Um, and with Ali Parker.
• 51:02
  Madeleine (2): And I asked him this question, like, how do you deal with like negative reviews?
• 51:05
  Madeleine (2): And, and Robbie said, Oh, I just love it when.
• 51:08
  Madeleine (2): People engage with the work, particularly when it's reviewed in sort of like a critic will review it and really get into it and offer some of those qualifying things that Kyra, you were mentioning, because the fact that it's, it's such a rare thing to have someone critique your work
• 51:22
  Kyra: and having
• 51:23
  Madeleine (2): someone engaged with the matter at that level of detail is a privilege and quite incredible.
• 51:28
  Madeleine (2): I'm not sure if the same, you could apply to Goodreads reviews or reviews on social media, but it is, it is amazing that you're starting a conversation.
• 51:36
  Kyra: Absolutely.
• 51:38
  Madeleine (2): Okay.
• 51:39
  Madeleine (2): Has anyone found a mistake yet?
• 51:41
  Madeleine (2): This is, I'm about to do my final read of the Butterfly Women, by the way, over Christmas.
• 51:45
  Madeleine (2): And this is my nightmare.
• 51:48
  Madeleine (2): Well,
• 51:49
  Kyra (2): if I start there first, no, generally not.
• 51:52
  Kyra (2): I think the only thing that came up, I mean, I was absolutely fastidious with my historical research, but there was one scene that I wrote during the structural edit and I didn't get a chance to research something.
• 52:04
  Kyra (2): And it's just, there's a castle in my area and they used to, um, It was the scene of air raid, uh, drill.
• 52:13
  Kyra (2): It was an air raid shelter or for air raid drills, I should say, during World War II.
• 52:18
  Kyra (2): And I, um, apparently it wasn't under the house in the basement, as I thought it actually was in a cave.
• 52:24
  Kyra (2): So that was told to me by the owner of the property.
• 52:27
  Kyra (2): So I'm very sorry for that.
• 52:28
  Kyra (2): But, um, yeah, apart from that, no, no mistakes that I found.
• 52:31
  Kyra (2): You always claim that it's fiction as well.
• 52:33
  Kyra (2): Yes, I know, I know, but you know, but in historical fiction, we'd like to get it right.
• 52:38
  Mark: I had someone very proudly point out a plot hole and then I was lucky enough to be able to say like, Oh, actually, You remember that bit in the text?
• 52:50
  Mark: And they're like, Oh, I'd forgotten about that.
• 52:52
  Mark: So yeah, it was helpful that they, they kind of spotted the mistake.
• 52:58
  Mark: But other than that, um, not, not so far, but please don't work your way into finding them because I'm sure they're there.
• 53:06
  Madeleine (2): I'm always interested to know if people message authors and say, Oh, you didn't.
• 53:10
  Madeleine (2): You forgot a full stop here
• 53:12
  Kyra: because
• 53:14
  Madeleine (2): it's gonna happen, especially, you know, 124, 6, 000 words.
• 53:19
  Kyra: Yeah.
• 53:20
  Madeleine (2): Yep.
• 53:20
  Madeleine (2): Okay.
• 53:20
  Madeleine (2): Well that's reassuring.
• 53:21
  Madeleine (2): All right.
• 53:22
  Madeleine (2): Um, what's the one thing you wish you knew before you were published?
• 53:27
  Madeleine (2): I'll start with Mark.
• 53:28
  Kyra (2): No, Mark, do you want to answer that?
• 53:30
  Kyra (2): I'm still not sure what to say.
• 53:31
  Kyra (2): Mark was smiling, so I was like,
• 53:33
  Mark: okay.
• 53:33
  Mark: I think it is, it's relevant to obviously this chat, but like, um, uh, part of it is like not to be as stressed about the interviews, um, because like it is, it's completely understandable of how nervous Um, people get and stuff like that.
• 53:50
  Mark: But, um, like even in the debut crew, we were talking about it and people were talking about taking beta blockers and stuff like that.
• 53:56
  Mark: And like, um, it's stressful kind of, you know, building up to this stuff.
• 54:00
  Mark: But the thing to remember at the end of the day is that like almost.
• 54:04
  Mark: Um, without exception, like the interviewer is invested in your success.
• 54:08
  Mark: Like they're, they're not going to hit you with hard questions and stuff like that.
• 54:12
  Mark: And I think, you know, prepare, be, be ready, have your, understand your, um, talking points and what the sorts of questions they might ask and stuff like that.
• 54:23
  Mark: I also, I.
• 54:24
  Mark: personally exercise before I do them, get some of that, like, adrenaline out and do, do little things like that.
• 54:29
  Mark: Um, but like that buildup of like stress that you're going to say something that will somehow, um, destroy your entire career or something like that, that it's, it feels like it might be, um, it's just not, It's not like that.
• 54:44
  Mark: And um, the more you can know your subject and just sort of relax into it and, and have a conversation.
• 54:50
  Mark: I think that's, um, that, that would have helped me, uh, beforehand.
• 54:54
  Mark: I, I, I think I picked it up reasonably quickly.
• 54:56
  Mark: And I think a lot of us did.
• 54:57
  Mark: Um, cause we enjoy the, the conversation.
• 54:59
  Mark: The chats, but, um, yeah,
• 55:01
  Madeleine (2): over time, once you've done a few, you're probably sort of saying the same things over and over as well.
• 55:06
  Mark: Similar.
• 55:06
  Mark: Yes.
• 55:06
  Mark: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 55:07
  Mark: You told me what you, cause my, um, curious marketing background on PR.
• 55:11
  Mark: So yeah, talking points and all that sort of stuff.
• 55:14
  Mark: You guys
• 55:14
  Madeleine (2): should have a little business, a side hustle for the day.
• 55:18
  Madeleine (2): Let's do it.
• 55:18
  Madeleine (2): Kyra,
• 55:21
  Kyra (2): you've got your answer.
• 55:22
  Kyra (2): Yeah.
• 55:23
  Kyra (2): I don't think I've got anything really.
• 55:25
  Kyra (2): Good to say there.
• 55:26
  Kyra (2): So no, I'm going to pass on that one.
• 55:29
  Madeleine (2): All right.
• 55:29
  Madeleine (2): No, pass.
• 55:30
  Madeleine (2): That's fine.
• 55:30
  Madeleine (2): So, well, Kyra, what's next for you then?
• 55:33
  Madeleine (2): And this is a question that, you know, people often, authors often get asked when their book comes out, they go, what's next?
• 55:38
  Madeleine (2): They're like, but wait, I'm still
• 55:39
  Kyra (2): working.
• 55:40
  Kyra (2): Actually, yeah, I nearly answered that last one that way.
• 55:43
  Kyra (2): I suppose the thing.
• 55:45
  Kyra (2): One of the things I find hardest to deal with, actually, is that on day one, when you go into a bookstore to sign your freshly printed copies, the first question you get asked is, have you got another book coming?
• 55:59
  Kyra (2): And I actually found that really hard to deal with.
• 56:05
  Kyra (2): I mean, I could answer it smoothly enough.
• 56:07
  Kyra (2): But yeah, sort of.
• 56:08
  Kyra (2): No, no, not yet.
• 56:10
  Kyra (2): Like and, and, and this is the thing.
• 56:12
  Kyra (2): It it's an industry and I mean, I have that business background, so I get that it's an industry that constantly needs to be fed and um, you know, the bookshops in particular and the publishers, they do want authors who are ready with another book in the pipeline and another book, one behind that, and another one behind that.
• 56:30
  Kyra (2): And I suppose to some extent I have bucked the trend a little bit on that.
• 56:34
  Kyra (2): I have, um, not started.
• 56:37
  Kyra (2): I have actually now just done an outline for my, for a second novel.
• 56:41
  Kyra (2): I have just, but this month, so it's taken me this long to do because I really just refused to, I just didn't want to, I just wanted to give the time and space to giving this book the best chance possible to get out there in the world.
• 56:56
  Kyra (2): But maybe what I didn't really realize is that.
• 56:59
  Kyra (2): The publishers and the booksellers.
• 57:01
  Kyra (2): Would like to know that another book is coming that maybe that makes them feel it's more worthwhile to invest in you.
• 57:07
  Kyra (2): So, maybe I shot myself in the foot a bit there by being a bit too honest and saying I wasn't ready to do it yet.
• 57:14
  Kyra (2): I don't know.
• 57:14
  Madeleine (2): But I think though you have to be honest, don't you?
• 57:17
  Madeleine (2): And and I am honest.
• 57:18
  Madeleine (2): Yes.
• 57:19
  Madeleine (2): What can I say?
• 57:22
  Madeleine (2): You can't force a book if it's not ready to come out yet as well.
• 57:25
  Madeleine (2): So, yeah.
• 57:26
  Madeleine (2): No,
• 57:26
  Kyra (2): because no one's gonna write it for you.
• 57:28
  Kyra (2): No.
• 57:29
  Kyra (2): It's Let's be clear, this is not a lucrative industry, um, you know, mega, mega film deals aside, um, generally speaking, it's not a lucrative industry.
• 57:39
  Kyra (2): So it's not like you can justify it financially and when it's taking you away from friends and family and all that, you've got to be, you know, if you're going to go in, you've got to go all in.
• 57:48
  Kyra (2): And I was all in for 10 years, but I needed a little break.
• 57:52
  Madeleine (2): I think that's totally fair, especially with all the issues that you had last year with your help.
• 57:57
  Madeleine (2): So yeah, taking that time and enjoying the experience of getting out about and talking about your book.
• 58:02
  Madeleine (2): That is probably one of the best things is going to this.
• 58:05
  Kyra (2): I enjoy that and I connect with readers and that is actually really, really gratifying.
• 58:10
  Kyra (2): So yeah, absolutely.
• 58:12
  Madeleine (2): Mark, what's next for you other than mega film deals?
• 58:17
  Mark: Well, don't try and not build up to mega film deal as much in my head, because that's bound to lead to drama.
• 58:23
  Mark: So I, as I mentioned about, like, I felt like the book was doing well.
• 58:28
  Mark: Um, sorry, I thought the manuscript was solid, um, my friends were saying it was good.
• 58:33
  Mark: I was getting crickets when I'd sent it out to a handful of people.
• 58:36
  Mark: And so I just had this idea of, I don't know what the hell I'm talking about with writing.
• 58:41
  Mark: Um, I thought this book worked, but it didn't.
• 58:44
  Mark: I'm just going to write another novel.
• 58:45
  Mark: So I actually had almost the first draft.
• 58:49
  Mark: I think I had the first draft almost finished when I got the contract for this one.
• 58:53
  Mark: So I'm actually, um, in structural edits, um, for a new one.
• 58:57
  Mark: That's amazing.
• 58:59
  Mark: It's, it's, I'm really excited about it.
• 59:00
  Mark: It's this, um, road trip thriller about a mother and child kind of, um, on the run from like kind of powerful people, but it's all told from the perspective of a six year old boy.
• 59:12
  Mark: Um, so it's kind of like, I, my pitch idea for it is, um, Emma Donoghue's room on the run.
• 59:17
  Mark: Um, but like, uh, bit of Boy Swallows universe in there and stuff like that.
• 59:22
  Mark: So it's, it's, it.
• 59:23
  Mark: It was a bit, it felt like a really big swing.
• 59:26
  Mark: Um, and so far the response has been pretty good.
• 59:29
  Mark: So I'm, I'm excited about that.
• 59:30
  Mark: I'll see, we'll see how it all goes.
• 59:31
  Mark: Amazing.
• 59:32
  Madeleine (2): It's tough writing from a child's perspective, I think too, and having engaging, I just finished, um, Southern Aurora by Mark Brandy.
• 59:41
  Mark: Excellent.
• 59:42
  Mark: I heard an interview that he gave about that.
• 59:44
  Mark: And I, it, I completely agree.
• 59:47
  Mark: He's like, I would never ever do it again.
• 59:49
  Mark: And that, that was the thing.
• 59:50
  Mark: Like I would never ever do it again.
• 59:51
  Mark: There are some benefits in that, like the child doesn't understand what's actually happening kind of around them logistically most of the time.
• 59:58
  Mark: So you don't have to explain logistics.
• 1:00:00
  Mark: Yes.
• 1:00:01
  Mark: The thing is you need to get across all these things that he doesn't understand.
• 1:00:05
  Mark: He has no idea what's happening and you need to.
• 1:00:08
  Mark: Kind of imply them and like have other characters kind of talk and, and get this plot, this double plot going.
• 1:00:14
  Mark: It's, it was a nightmare.
• 1:00:16
  Mark: It's
• 1:00:16
  Madeleine (2): amazing.
• 1:00:16
  Madeleine (2): Cause as a adult, I could, I knew exactly what was going on, but, but you know, this character in his book, but the poor kid just sort of made this, it made it quite funny though, like it was sort of humorous in the, in how it was conveyed.
• 1:00:28
  Madeleine (2): So yeah, it's an excellent book for everyone who's listening.
• 1:00:31
  Madeleine (2): It's a.
• 1:00:32
  Kyra: Hmm.
• 1:00:32
  Madeleine (2): I didn't recommend it.
• 1:00:35
  Madeleine (2): Okay.
• 1:00:35
  Madeleine (2): And we're at our final question now, which is what we ask all our authors who come on the podcast.
• 1:00:40
  Madeleine (2): Um, what's your final top tip for aspiring writers?
• 1:00:44
  Madeleine (2): I'll start with you, Mark.
• 1:00:46
  Mark: Okay.
• 1:00:46
  Mark: Well, I think, um, uh, maybe I'll focus on one that's, uh, assuming as we have the book deal kind of idea, um, around the, uh, the actual launch.
• 1:00:56
  Mark: Um, your previous guest, guest Allie Parker, um, gave me the, the great tip of stay hydrated.
• 1:01:02
  Mark: Um, and I would expand on that of like, whatever you do to, um, kind of, if you've got some kind of like meditative practice, like it doesn't need to be meditation, but like swimming or cycling or exercise, eating right.
• 1:01:18
  Mark: The six weeks before launch.
• 1:01:20
  Mark: Like just build yourself up, get enough sleep, try and get ready.
• 1:01:24
  Mark: Cause it's stressful it's, and you're not going to have the opportunity.
• 1:01:27
  Mark: You're probably going to be bouncing everywhere.
• 1:01:29
  Mark: You're gonna be stressed about social media.
• 1:01:31
  Mark: So like kind of get yourself to peak performance, like some kind of athlete or something like that.
• 1:01:36
  Mark: Um, because it, it is like a really intense period or I found it incredibly intense and, um, I think I would have really suffered.
• 1:01:44
  Mark: Um, mentally, if, um, if I hadn't have kind of really pushed myself at the beginning to be kind of relaxed, de stressed, feeling fit and feeling healthy and stuff like that.
• 1:01:54
  Madeleine (2): Oh, that's such a good tip.
• 1:01:56
  Madeleine (2): Exercise to me is very important for my mental health.
• 1:01:59
  Madeleine (2): So, okay, that is a great tip for me.
• 1:02:01
  Madeleine (2): I'm going to take that one.
• 1:02:02
  Kyra: Yes.
• 1:02:02
  Kyra: Okay.
• 1:02:03
  Madeleine (2): Thanks, Mark.
• 1:02:04
  Madeleine (2): Kyra, what are you going
• 1:02:05
  Kyra (2): to leave us on?
• 1:02:06
  Kyra (2): Well, I've got a lot, lots of practical tips, but I'm going to leave them aside and just give more of a, um, something straight for the heart, which is that I think probably the hardest thing for us as, as authors and as debut authors is kind of hold two, two beliefs simultaneously.
• 1:02:24
  Kyra (2): And on one hand, I think we have to be ambitious and allow ourselves to dream big and work hard to do that.
• 1:02:32
  Kyra (2): Thank you.
• 1:02:33
  Kyra (2): And at the same time, we also have to be very measured and realistic about our expectations.
• 1:02:40
  Kyra (2): And understand the size of the market and the usual sorts of sales and all of that.
• 1:02:44
  Kyra (2): But I think you got to kind of do both and that's not, not an easy thing to do.
• 1:02:49
  Kyra (2): So, but that would be my advice to try to find a way to do both.
• 1:02:53
  Madeleine (2): That's a great tip, Kyra.
• 1:02:54
  Madeleine (2): I think it's something that we all try and balance and, and continue to do, isn't it?
• 1:02:58
  Kyra: Yeah, yeah, that's
• 1:03:00
  Mark: on.
• 1:03:02
  Mark: on point.
• 1:03:02
  Mark: Perfect.
• 1:03:04
  Madeleine (2): Absolutely.
• 1:03:05
  Madeleine (2): Thank you so much, Kieran, mark, for joining us on the Book Deal podcast.
• 1:03:09
  Kyra: Thank you.
• 1:03:09
  Kyra: Thanks Madeline.
• 1:03:10
  Kyra: Lovely chat.
• 1:03:10
  Kyra: So great.
• 1:03:12
  Madeleine (2): We hope you enjoyed this episode of the Book Deal podcast.
• 1:03:15
  Madeleine (2): Please like, follow or share this episode
• 1:03:17
  Madeleine: so we can encourage more aspiring authors.
• 1:03:19
  Madeleine: And if you have a question you'd like us to answer or ask our guests, please find us on Instagram at the book deal, or email us at the book deal@outlook.com.