Latest / Cybersecurity Perspectives / S1:E12 - December 2025 saw the discovery of Void Link, a malware framework written in six days by an AI agent, described as a point of no return for automated threat development.

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S1:E12 - December 2025 saw the discovery of Void Link, a malware framework written in six days by an AI agent, described as a point of no return for automated threat development. · Cybersecurity Perspectives

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Cybersecurity moves fast.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_01: Working in a space measured in minutes and seconds means we can't expect to keep pace by doing the same thing over and over.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: The sharing of perspective across technologists, defenders, business, and professionals is key to unleashing internal capability.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_03: Perspective comes from sharing experiences and ideas.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome to Cybersecurity Perspectives.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, what's up?
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_04: What's going on, Owen Man?
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_04: How are you?
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: Man, I'm gonna say we've got a Nixus intro.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: Uh what trauma are you?
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: And what is what is this doing?
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_03: Dude, I'm I'm rocking sunglasses on this episode, even though no one can see me, because I am recording from sunny California.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm telling you right now, everything here is chill.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_03: It's amazing.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm gonna do this whole episode of my sunglasses, I think.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um hopefully people can revert back to other episodes to know that it's not the true Paul.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: Uh oh my goodness, dude.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: Look at this.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we're gonna, I'm telling you, we're gonna get our intro eventually.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: It'll be good.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, we try different things.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_03: What do we do?
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_03: Jazz DJ.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_03: I got I got one in the queue.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_03: I have I don't, it's I'm still perfecting it.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's like you know, hi, welcome to cybersecurity perspectives.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, it is because that would be.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_03: You know what?
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_03: You do the intro from now on, Owen.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_03: That's it.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_03: You've just proven that you're significantly better at this than I am.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_03: Now we're just wasting time for everybody at this point.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_03: You're right, you're right.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_03: So let's just go ahead and get into it.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_03: Well, listen, everybody, welcome to cybersecurity perspectives, as Owen so perfectly said.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_03: And we actually have a pretty awesome guest that we have here today.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_03: Today we have Evan O'Branevic.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_03: He's an 18-year veteran in education from classrooms to tech integrator, and he's currently the executive director of technology for his district.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_03: Evan's been doing amazing things with technology, things you wouldn't typically are associated with K-12, specifically inheriting and maintaining the district's overprovision data center, and then turning that into co-location space for other districts, and then further expanding the space to support local nonprofits and businesses.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_03: Pretty amazing stuff.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_03: Evan, thank you so much.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome and uh thanks for being on the show.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for that glowing introduction, I feel.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: I feel good.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: You guys got a good smartless intro vibe to the podcast.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe just keep that rolling, you know, the chatter at the beginning.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: That was the feedback we needed.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: That was it.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_03: This can't be boring.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_03: Like if we're being honest, people are listening to this on the commute in or on the commute out, and this can't be just all cybersecurity.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_03: We're gonna have a little fun in life, right?
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think I was just on the cusp with something else.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: And then again, another guest gave their opinion that aligned with you.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: So I I think I learned my place, right?
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_03: I love this podcast.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_03: I keep getting validated and vindicated.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_03: It's amazing.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_03: Evan, tell the list a little bit about yourself and what's going on in your life.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks again for having me.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, as you've kind of described, um started as a classroom teacher in fourth grade, uh, had originally from Michigan, moved out to Colorado, uh, did that for six years, transitioned, found a knack for technology, uh, got approached by my tech director uh out there at the time to take on a new tech integrator role.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: I was super excited about that, something I felt like I had a good passion for, but still wanted to maintain myself in the education space.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: The longer I've been in it, I just can't really see myself leaving.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: I I don't uh I don't see the the downsides yet.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there's there's some pickups for sure, but uh did that, had a great time, uh loved it, and then an opportunity to kind of get back closer.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: Now I'm back in in Traver City, Michigan, not originally from here, but to get back to Michigan, be closer to family, and just take on that next step, right?
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_00: And become a a director role and and kind of keep advancing and trying to have a bigger impact on what I'm doing has been great.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like I really lucked out kind of my landing spot um to your point, like with the data center stuff, which was just kind of a cool, hey, this is here, welcome.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: My God, well, what do we do with this?
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: But it's been a lot of fun kind of figuring that out and developing that out and kind of a feather in our caps here at TCAPS to do that.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: And then just all the other things that come with being, you know, a tech director of a somewhat large district and and the ins and outs of that, but still trying to keep the teacher perspective at heart.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that was a big kind of reason I actually, I think, a question my own self in my interview.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, guys, I'm not super technical, you know.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: I have a knack for it.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, are you sure you want me?
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: And they're like, well, we want you for that teacher perspective.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: We wanted you to help make those connections and have those conversations.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: And we have the other staff uh who are real technical with that.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, it's been a lot of fun.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: I'm super glad I'm here.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, it's been an adventure.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: That's so cool.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: That's so cool.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_03: You mentioned something that that really resonated with me.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_03: You know, we we've talked with technologists and cyber professionals and C-level executives on our show, and like we're getting unbelievable perspective.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_03: But there's one theme that I think keeps coming coming up, and you I think you said it really well a knack for technology, right?
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_03: Like, how did you know?
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_03: Like, where did that come from?
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_03: Like, when did you realize like tech was your thing?
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's uh I think it was so in the classroom, and we had just what in my kind of time there, we started to transition at my old district into a a Google for education school.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so with that, you know, came all sorts of kind of fun ins and outs, and Google's always trying to make it interesting and and keep you on your toes with how they're changing things and adapting and adding new tools.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I think a lot of teachers, you know, it's a it's a hard thing because they're also just trying to be good teachers and teach that curriculum.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but for me, like that never felt like one more thing.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: That just felt like this is awesome, like let me figure this out.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: And or I didn't take nearly as long to figure it out, right, as some of my peers.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: So then I was helping them.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, let's take a look at this.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: They're like, How do you do that?
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: I've always felt like I could explain it, right?
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: So that teacher teaching the teacher thing seemed to come through with me.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I think it was just kind of in that range.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: And then, um, you know, to the credit of my old tech director who is awesome, kind of approached me and goes, you know, I see what you're doing, I see how you're working with the other staff.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: He's like, we're developing this role, the tech integrator role.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: He's like, I'd love for you to apply for it.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's right up your alley.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: And like I said before, it was kind of like a no-brainer.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, absolutely, let's do that.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: Because like I still want to be in education, but I find myself way gravitating far more to that tech side of things, but helping kind of what does that integration look like?
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: What does that partnership look like?
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: And and I'm not here to do validation at all, but honestly, from what I've heard, um, you know, my wife is a special ed teacher in the district that I live locally here, uh, but just working with some of our clients too is that seems to be the ideal uh director of technology, right?
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: Someone that has the classroom experiences that understands the mission of the district and really tries to bring an understanding the teachers of the front lines, right?
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so that's amazing, Evan.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: Really, really just awesome to hear.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's definitely a balancing act.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: You find um, you know, you get instituted into, you know, we joke in my department, angry tech guy or girl uh saying no to this, yes to this, and then trying to translate that and being that bridge, right?
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: Of of understanding it's like teachers are just doing everything they can to get these things done, to help their students, um, which doesn't always result in the most reasonable requests or that.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, how do you find that middle ground?
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: And uh yeah, it's it's a balance though, but it keeps going.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I think, yeah, you've got to have that perspective, and that's the only way you're gonna bridge that gap and make people feel comfortable and wanting to take some of those risks and also just maintaining some of the standards you have to set, right?
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: That they don't care about in terms of technology um safety and anything like that.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: So they want to trust you, but then know that you're there to help them out.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, just to that point, that's really important.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_03: I think I may have just experienced an epiphany.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_03: So, like it's funny, you guys talking through this stuff.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_03: One of the things I like to think about, right, especially from a business perspective, is like, what's your unfair advantage?
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_03: Like, if you look at a business or if you look at an organization, it doesn't matter what it is, could be a nonprofit, could be, you know, could be our own company ourselves, like what's the unfair advantage?
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_03: What's the thing that we do that's different than everyone else?
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_03: I think I may have just figured out, based on this conversation, what education's unfair advantage is.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_03: Like in business, our entire careers, like Owen and I've I've grown up in these enterprise, big enterprise companies, and almost always like the message from the C-level executive is something to the effect of think about the business, don't be a blocker, put your put yourself in their shoes.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_03: And then in education, that tends to be something that people really do.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_03: Like there are people that start as teachers, they start as the end users and graduate into tech, right?
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_03: Whether it's a tech director or some other technology role.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_03: And as a result, they don't have to put themselves in the teacher's shoes.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_03: They've lived it, they've been there, and that's something I think super unique to K-12.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_03: I never really put that together until we're able to kind of chat through that right now.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_03: Well, this has been an amazing episode, everyone.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_03: Really appreciate your time.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_01: This is just the intro?
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_01: Or can we even do this yet?
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_01: Come on.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_03: That was uh that was easy.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_03: All right, good.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_03: Join us next week on another episode.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_03: That's too funny.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_03: What do you think?
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_03: What do you do?
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_03: You say, right, in the industry.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_03: That's it, exactly.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_03: Long form.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_03: What do you think, Owen?
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_03: You think it's time?
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: I think I feel like we're I had a couple topics, but no, I love what this done.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, let's just get in.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: Let's let's have Evan select.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_03: All right, Evan.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_03: Here's the here's how it goes.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_03: You know, we've explained this a bunch of times, so for those of you who are just joining us for the first time, the entire episode depends on Evan's selection right now.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_03: He has to choose the topic, which we're going to discuss.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_03: There are three cards in front of Owen, card A, card B, and card C.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_03: Whatever he picks, that is one of the things we're going to talk about.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_03: Evan, over to you, man.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_03: Where are we going with this?
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: You guys have taken me back to my teaching days.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: This like pop quiz.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just nervous.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, as you think about that, Evan, I've always done C's get degrees.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: C's get degrees.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_00: I was leaning towards this.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: Let's do that.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: I was leaning towards C.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to go C.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: There we go.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_01: The terrifying moment.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: So the title of this is AI Enabled Threats and Adversarial Use.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_01: So this is according to the 2026 Google Cloud Cybersecurity Forecast.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_01: December 2025 saw the discovery of Void Link, a malware framework written in six days by an AI agent.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: Described as a point of no return for automated threat development.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: So I'll read it one more time.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: December 2025 saw the discovery of Void Link, a malware framework written in six days by an AI agent, described as a point of no return for automated threat development.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_04: This is hmm interesting.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_03: You don't like like thinking about this statistic.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_03: I think this is the first one we got from Google's report.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_03: So that's kind of cool.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, it is.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_03: But in in in in my mind, like this is what I think everyone is feeling.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_03: This is what everyone's worrying about.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_03: And this is like what like the dark side of kind of this, the AI enablement that that everyone has kind of been like, you know, like thinking about and dancing around.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_03: The reality is like this is it, like the genie's out of the bottom.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_03: And like the thing that that jumped out at me from this statistic is this concept of like the point of note.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: No, I mean, for me, really quickly, and and Evan, I definitely want to get your opinion, but for me, this once like triggered one of the articles I wanted to bring up earlier is just this notion of AI being able to create, right?
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: So no longer do you need code, but someone that doesn't know anything, but it's like, hey, what do we want to do?
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: So ideation can lead to actual infiltration.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: So I was thinking, like, Evan, from your perspective, like, do a lot of kids use AI?
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: So the article that I was referring to is like unapproved AI agents being used in your actual organization, right?
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: So if you say, hey, I approve of Claude, we've locked it down, use this, it's accessible.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: But then you just see some of your faculty staff, students, or employees, right, just using ChatGPT.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: So that's like, do you see a lot of like K-12 or the students internally or the staff using things from a coding perspective that, again, most of the time is external perspective, but is there anything from an internal perspective that this kind of triggers?
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I think this is extremely relevant uh even to some of these most recent conversations and and conferences I've attended and just in general, kind of the approach or concerns with AI in education.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, it was there's been a stop go, stop, go, stop go mentality, I think, since kind of it all has blown up.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and saying that, you know, we don't want to use it, let's block it all because we're not sure where it's gonna go, we can't control it to companies in our case, right?
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: We're a Google school, so trying to find, you know, is the um controlled environment of using a Gemini and some of those related tools uh safe enough for our kids, at what level, right, do we have our kids going to do it?
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: And then the staff too, because we're all trying to learn it at the same pace, right?
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's new to everyone.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so having some of those conversations, and I will say we do not have it all figured out yet.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think anyone claim can claim that they do.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it's like looking at those and being to your point, like, okay, so if if we're gonna get comfortable with one, say in our case, Gemini, um, we know that we have teachers that are using Chat GPT because that's what they started with, or the the more kind of techie geeky ones, exploring other ones, a claw, a perplexity, just all these other ones that are out there.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, they're starting to become endless.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: And at what point are we trying to plug our fingers in the holes of the wall of the dam and stop all those and feel like, hey, we're good?
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: Versus is it more of an education perspective?
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like, are we really just trying to have those conversations with them, explain to them, you know, what the downfalls can be, why they need to model that, meaning the staff for the students, at which level they can use it or we're comfortable with them using it.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: And then after all of that, right, working within our little controlled lovely box that we have, what's happening when a kid or a teacher goes home?
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, with our students, especially our our maybe more advanced students who like to push the envelope a little bit.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I have no doubt that they are at home dabbling in some of these things and trying to figure out how that's gonna work.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_00: And so, are we on top of it enough, right?
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: From which I think is always a tough area in education, right?
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: Cybersecurity in general.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we don't tend to have all the dollars needed to do that the right way or get all the right tools and people in place.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like, are we doing enough to even stop that before we sit up or wake up one morning and something like that's happened, right?
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: Because kids have found a way, a staff inadvertently found a way to get that done.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that whole concept, uh, I think you were mentioning earlier, just the the ideation, the bycoding, right?
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: You don't need to know anymore.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: Like, and that's part of the pitch to it a lot of times, right?
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like, it's great.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: You just gotta start typing in ideas and it's it's gonna figure it out for you.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: And you're like, well, that's cool if all of your ideas are very well intentioned and good.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: So what happens when somebody has the other ideas and they're they're doing that, and it's like, how are, like I said, how are we gonna keep plugging these holes?
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I think it's definitely something that we're thinking about, worrying about, and trying to figure out what is the best approach.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think there's probably one, but to try and you know limit that that exposure.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_03: And look, to bring it back to the statistic, you're spot on, right?
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_03: Because the thing is, like, just like you described how there's all of these options out there.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_03: There's all these things that that you can use, whether it's perplexity or chat GPT or Gemini or Claude or you know, all the other different, you know, uh models that are out there.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_03: The reality is like because of that, like there's really no barrier to entry for cybercrime, right?
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_03: Like, like the reality is like it used to be there, there you cybercrime needs to be gated.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_03: Because you used to need a coder that you turned into a criminal or a coder to become criminal.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_03: Now you really just need space, right?
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you need someone like knowledge.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_03: Now you just need a criminal with an idea, right?
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_03: And the thing is, like, getting access to these things, getting access to unrestricted models is not hard.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_03: You know, like it reminds me of like one of these kind of recent memes I saw in social media where it was like, you know, uh, hey, fill in the blank, right?
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_03: Hey, model, tell me where I can get an unrestricted, uh, an unrestricted model so I can code them out.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_03: And it's like, I'm sorry, I can't help you with that.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_03: And then he responds, yeah, you're right.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_03: Tell me what sites to stay away from so I don't accidentally interact with one of these models.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_03: It's like, oh yeah, don't go to these sites to download the model, right?
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_03: So like getting these things is not hard.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_03: And the other thing that like this brings me back to is oh, and this is this actually reminds me directly of the keynote that we watched at Black Hat this year, where the the researcher came out and basically said, the economics of malware has been turned upside down.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_03: Like it used to be this like you had to spend cycles and development teams, and you had to build things like encryption software or ransomware, and had to go through the same testing and QA.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_03: And like those became the unfair advantages of those cyber criminals.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_03: But the thing is that's not the case anymore.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_03: You can vibe code malware if you have an unrestricted model overnight.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's actually the like the real gravitas of this particular statistic.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I agree.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: I think the the last one for me on this, um, and maybe we'll have time, depending upon Evan, what you've got for another card.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: But I don't know.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like, Evan, I I also admire what you're doing, but I also don't admire the position that districts are in, right?
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like from an educational perspective, we want our students, right, and our faculty and staff to be able to teach and provide the latest and greatest tools as we teach structure, right?
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: But at the end of the day, like using these new tools especially does introduce a ton of issues within your network, right?
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I think it's like, how do we allow geared education?
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: And Paul, I think that's what we talk about a lot is let's stop doing vendor-based, let's just do tool-based, right?
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: So if we're talking about why are we using things like ChatGPT or, you know, anthropic or anything else, is because we're trying to get towards information.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: Much like I had to go back to the day of go to the encyclopedia row of B for looking up this particular topic, right?
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: I think if we can start to create those avenues of safe exploration, like shoot, but it's so hard, man.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: That's what I'm finding this notion of AI.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, it's so hard to know, like, is it locked down, is it not, who has that control?
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but the more that we can do it and the more we can open it up, I think there's a lot of opportunity, hopefully in the good, right?
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: I I think and from our perspective and kind of what you see to some of what you're talking about is it it has supercharged the ability to find information and learn things, right?
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: Which is which is excellent.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I think helping coach uh the people that we have in our environment to try and continue to do that for good, um, and and and then pass along the reasons and just uh the attitude of of why we can do that so that we can really play around with such a powerful tool and and find some really cool uses of it.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: And it's also, you know, in a short amount of time, made a lot of uh armchair quarterbacks like I this is what Gemini said that it could fix my problem, right?
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: So when we get a ticket that like I I looked up this and if if I run this PowerShell command, I think it it'll just fix it.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, no, no, no, no.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we have that plot anyway, but you're just like, well.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: So we've opened up like this brand new box of now a bunch of assumed tech techies, right?
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: They're like, well, I mean, if this it's it's not lying to me.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: So this has got to be good.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then it's it's a short pathway to, like I said, potentially going malicious or just inadvertently doing something that's gonna cause a whole lot of hassle.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_03: You know, that so this is actually super interesting because I think this is a direct linkage, or that most recent story is a direct linkage between this statistic and where the rubber hits the road, not only in K-12, but every organization out there.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_03: Right?
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_03: Because to your point, people have access now to incredibly smart intelligence, right?
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_03: Like what I would call like an intern who knows everything, right?
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_03: And that's kind of where where AI is at this point.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_03: And you talk about you know, educators or administrators, whoever who are like doing the research, they want to figure out figure out what's going on.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_03: But actually said something a moment ago that actually stuck with me and I can't let it go.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_03: You talked about students who are tinkering, right?
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_03: And like here's the thing insider threat is also another major threat factor.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_03: It's a major threat vector for all of the, you know, all the organizations that are out there, right?
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_03: You have your people, they're trusted, they have access internally.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_03: But if we if we're thinking about this statistic, right?
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_03: This particular piece of malware was created in six days.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_03: It was automated threat development.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_03: Like those same tools are now available to people inside their organizations.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_03: So now this is not only accelerated all of the good, all of the great things that we're doing.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_03: It's definitely accelerated, you know, telesecurity.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_03: It's accelerated all of our clients, like everyone is able to have access to this information and solve problems and do things faster and better.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_03: But it also is true for the opposite end of the spectrum, right?
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_03: People that I would call have evil or malicious intention.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_03: So now, you know, I Evan, uh like your perspective, I'd be very curious, especially from the student side, because students are still kind of figuring out what's right or wrong.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_03: They're still kind of learning and and and engaging in that curiosity.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_03: Like moral aptitude, right?
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_03: I can I can only imagine like what kind of insider threats are emerging.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_03: As a result of this kind of technology being at kids' fingertips.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we've we've had incidences of kind of homegrown fishing campaigns all within our environment, um, trying to find different ways that eventually got reported to us, maybe after they got caught, and then saying, hey, we found this vulnerability, or you know, trying to be helpful.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, well, that's great, but you also did it first.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, having some of those conversations, but you know, those ideas are out there and those students who kind of are thinking far beyond just getting some homework done or finding an easier way to get the assignment, um, which you want to harness, but you want to harness it like we were just saying, in a way for good.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it's inevitable that you're gonna have, you know, in a in our case, a district of about 9,000 students.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: There are a couple who are just going to continue to push the envelope and something we have to be aware of.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: And and like we said, what is the right approach to try and either, you know, stop them at the gates, try and teach, or, you know, talk them over to our side of just being doing it for the sake of of good or joining with us and helping us find it out and taking that pathway as opposed to using it totally maliciously.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then um I think, you know, ease being easily influenced, you know, as a student, or even sometimes as a as a as a more inexperienced staff member to again inadvertently do something or help that process around uh that then causes potentially major havoc.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: And then we're all scrambling to figure it out.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, it is uh quite the conundrum.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, something that sometimes, not every night, sometimes snaps me awake or you look at, or you get an email and you wonder uh, you know, who who where'd this come from?
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: This is very fishy.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: How did they know this?
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so you start to like try and figure some of those those items out, but you're never 100% sure.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, it's it's something that I think is only going to increase in kind of taking up the bandwidth of what we're trying to process um in terms of what our goals and what we need to focus on are.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: But uh hopefully we can try and find a balance to it.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_03: I like there are things I did on computers when I was 14 or 15 that I will not admit publicly on this podcast.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_03: But like if I'm taking those and extrapolating them out to the power that just limitations, divulge.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_03: Divulge.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_03: Nope, sorry.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_02: Open it up.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_02: Let's go.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_02: Let's say locking it up.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_02: We're not talking about that.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_02: That will not be a stat on the car.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: Allegedly, allegedly.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: Allegedly, it is.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I allegedly did when I was 14, 15.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_03: Um, no, that uh honestly, like, I I I think we we definitely kind of gotten to the point of this one.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_03: And the fact is, like, it's a brave new world.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_03: And the thing that keeps sticking with me from this particular stat is like there is this point of no return, and this is just how things are now.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_03: There's no putting that genie back in the bottle.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_03: That's pretty wild.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: But I think I think that's the interesting point, though, right?
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's like that's the first time the internet's were introduced to school districts or people in general, right?
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like people are always gonna tinker and find ways around it.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, at least in this context, I'm trying to trying to hopefully find the positives because again, that the negatives will always be there, right?
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: We're always gonna be attacked, there's always gonna be people trying to infiltrate.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: But um, six seconds to me to create malware, shoot.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: Let's go, right?
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_01: Let's create some stuff that's really amazing to stop them or do something different, right?
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: That that's the key, I think, to what you said though, is just the speed, right?
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: Like I think there's always like every new tool has its pros and cons with just the basic internet coming in and all that.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: And if we're just seeing it, I mean, and everyone talks about it in all aspects, but especially in the the the exponential kind of like increase and what it can do, how it's going to be functioned, what people are putting it in.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like everyone, you know, every education vendor and their mother uh is adding AI to the tool because they think that's all we want.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, actually, it'd be great if you didn't.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like just keep it really simple.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like, we can have a conversation.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, I don't want because you know, you have the issues, like we said with or I said with public perception.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, you're gonna lose some people in terms of our families and the communities.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_00: They start asking the question, especially the ones who want to be a little bit more informed and engaged.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_00: And they're like, Why, why does this particular tool you guys are using?
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: It says, you know, there's no AI feature.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: Why are we doing that?
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want that.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't necessarily blame them either time.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not gonna always be the one who's like, no, no, forge ahead.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's great.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's like there are times for that, but there's plenty of times too where I'm like, yeah, no, I don't particularly love that either.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: We're we're going really fast and just kind of dropping things in without necessarily stopping back and thinking, like, what are we gaining from this, right?
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: What where is that?
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: And how can we slow roll it to maybe at least make sure it's gonna work the way we want it to?
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: I love what you said, and then I'll officially be quiet on this topic, right?
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like I've said a lot, but um Evan, I love what you said on that is that I saw the same principle with cloud, right?
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: Why are we running towards things that quote unquote are good for our business?
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_01: First and foremost, identify what your mission, your business is, and then identify your problems, right?
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: So mission-driven business like K-12s is you may not have a need for AI cranking, right, for your community.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: So let's not do that, right?
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: How are we using the application of this tool rather than we're just gonna force everything into the tool?
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't know.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: That was pretty, you know, I it was enlightening for me.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: I'm glad you kind of had that perspective.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_03: Recall BS.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_03: There's no way you stay quiet on this.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_03: Like you two are like two Ps in a pod right now.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_03: Owen is the first person to be like, no, I don't want it, I don't want AI, turn it off.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_03: It's immediate.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_03: That's it.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_03: It's it but but honestly, like I also appreciate that perspective.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_03: And I think like, you know, I think Evan, you inadvertently just picked a new card because this is another topic that I think is worth discussing.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_03: Is that we like the overload, the AI overload is is a thing.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_03: Like the fatigue is a thing, right?
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_03: Like, you know, we use it for sure, but we're because of that fatigue, we're trying to make it like an ancillary secondary thing.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_03: Like, here's the core element of what we're trying to achieve.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_03: And if you want, you can use this other thing too.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_03: But how many companies are shoving it down our throat?
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_03: And it's connected everywhere, and it's doing everything, and it's pre-processing your data.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_03: And like, I I understand how people at this point are just like, man, like this is too much, and I'm not comfortable with it.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_04: Awesome.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: So, what do you think, guys?
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, this is an amazing topic.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_01: Content.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: Do we have enough time for another card?
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_01: Should we do final thoughts?
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: What do you think, Evan?
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: You got how much time do you have?
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: I'm up, I'm up for anything.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_00: We can do another card or expand on any of this.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_03: Let's do it.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: Owen's been dying to pick another card.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_00: Let's pick another card.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_04: Give us another lab.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_04: You can pick anyone you want.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_04: We have a whole pile of each one, whatever you want to do.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_04: Uh B.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_01: B.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_01: Nice.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_01: So that is ironically a stat of the day.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_01: That is the most popular pile so far is B.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so the title of this one is AI Enabled Threats and Adversarial Use.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_01: Uh big theme.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_01: AI is, I think, in almost everything.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: Uh this comes from according to the 2026 WEF Global Cybersecurity Outlook.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: 94% of respondents identify AI as the most significant driver of cybersecurity change in 2026.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_04: Interesting.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_01: And 87% flag AI-related vulnerabilities as the fastest growing cyber risk in 2025.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: So I'll read it again.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: 94% of respondents identify AI as the most significant driver of cybersecurity change in 2026.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: So one, right, why did that change, right?
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: And 87% flag AI-related vulnerabilities as the fastest growing cyber risk of 2025.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: So clearly AI is unleashing a lot of vulnerabilities to take advantage of.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_01: Any initial thoughts, guys?
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_03: This one, I like this one, this one's interesting for me because it kind of splits, it splits a positive and a negative, right?
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_03: Like, look, I'm I'm a cybersecurity guy.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_03: I've always been a cybersecurity guy.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_03: Super lucky, right?
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_03: I I fell into something I absolutely love doing day in and day out.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_03: And the more I think about and talk about this stuff, the happier I get.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_03: So that's amazing.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_03: And I want every organization to invest in cyber and to drive change in their cyber, to evolve and to keep their controls going.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_03: And like the first part of the stat feels like that.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_03: The first part of the stat is hey, this thing is happening.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_03: There's a lot of good we can do with it.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_03: Or there's also a lot of issues we're concerned about.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_03: But in both cases, it's going to drive us to modify our cyber program, to think about the new risks, to think about the new ways we can do things, to think about how we can improve the program or what we can do utilizing this new technology.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_03: But then it kind of hits you on the back end, thanks World Economic Forum, with like the negative stat of like, oh yeah, but then also because the reason why is because 87% of us are like, yeah, this is a major issue and like we got to really deal with it.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_03: So like this one is kind of no, like this one for me kind of feels like the devil and the angel on your shoulder.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_03: On the one side, it's driving change.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_03: I think that part of that drive, part of that change is positive.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_03: But on the other side, on the other shoulder, it's like, yeah, because we opened up all kinds of vulnerabilities and reintroduced some of the older things we thought we had handled are now major issues again, things like vulnerabilities, for example.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_04: Um so yeah, that one is interesting.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think it for from my perspective, it it even runs parallel to what I was describing or we were all talking about.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: Everything's like saying we got AI integrated now.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I think cybersecurity and all they secure are no exception.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_00: That's every email pitch slash cold call I get is like, hey, by the way, this is now AI.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's AI powered, it's AI powered, it's AI enabled.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_00: And then it's like, okay, cool.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_00: That makes me feel kind of good in there.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: But then you also just have, as we are trying to suss out how are we even using, say, the these uh more basic AI tools, chatbots, things like that.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's like they're part of the risk that we are undertaking, you know, when we're using them and how the different uh information is getting put in there, what guarantees we have, in our case, again, being say a Google district that Gemini is supposedly walling off our data, great.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_00: Can I say that with 100%?
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: Probably not.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_00: I have no idea.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_00: And then what happens at some point when it just doesn't, or it decides not to, or decides to share this out, as we've seen just with some of these examples out there of, you know, AI will tend to do what it wants to do after a certain amount of time or excuse me, with enough prompting.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_00: So um I I I agree with you.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_00: I think that kind of devil and angel on your shoulders is is how we're looking at it.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's like we need to look at it, we need to use it.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think having it integrated into this stuff, especially again, like I said, for an a more understaffed, underfunded in just the terms of specific cybersecurity realm, great.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: I need all the help I could get.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_00: But then, you know, am I letting the fox into the hen house to try and protect the hens from the other foxes?
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know, you know.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's one of those that is tough to uh just manage, and especially again, not being an expert, right?
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_00: Knowing on my staff, I have some very uh awesome folks and super smart, and they're working as hard as they can to do it, but they're they're also not cybersecurity experts.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_00: So we really rely on a lot of those outside sources to help us make sure we're doing everything we can to be on top of that stuff.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_03: I and I think the I think the bigger issue here I'm not even gonna say bigger issue, like they're all huge issue topics.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_03: That's kind of the that's kind of the problem, right?
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_03: But like the other issue here is like all we really have are terms and conditions, right?
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_03: Like we trust Google to not harvest that information and and reuse it.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_03: We trust anthropic, we trust OpenAI, we trust whoever, because it's written in their terms and conditions.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_03: But we have seen lawsuit after lawsuit emerge where companies are taking information that they just haphazardly received and used it for other things or sold it or did other things with it, because at the end of the day, and we talked about this in another episode, data is our new goal.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_03: It's the new oil, right?
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_03: Like the more data an organization has, the more that they can do things with that to improve services, to monetize, like the benefits are infinite.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_03: And like, how do you trust an organization to not utilize the data when your entire organization is loading this thing with data purposely?
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_03: Here, connect to my servers.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_03: Here's my API calls, here's all the data.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna upload these files, I'm gonna tell you everything that's in my brain.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_03: Like, that's a treasure trove of information to trust based on terms and conditions that you know the organizations aren't gonna use it.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the the one thing that for me that's really sparking here is 94 uh 94% of respondents identify AI as the most significant driver in cybersecurity change.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: So I took that as internal, right?
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_01: So internal organizations, K-12s organizations, whatever it might be, they're using AI, right, at that rate.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yet 87% flag AI-related vulnerabilities as the fastest growing cyber risk.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_01: That's where I struggle, right?
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_01: So where I originally went on this is that we have one piece of technology.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_01: So if we go back to like a gardener quadrant, or we start to see different products in the past being pilfered off of like highly mature, right, very entry-level, like first adopter type of status, is AI in its generality term, which I say it so much and I really don't like, right?
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_01: Is like, what is AI?
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_01: AI is just the ability to do things right with computation at the end of the day.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_01: But that's the thing, is one product is being able to be used vastly different, right, with the same application.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_01: We can all buy Chat GPT, we can all go get anthropic, we can go all get these particular tool sets, but we can use these vastly different, right?
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's that's which is a little bit unique, I think, where a lot of different organizations have to think about.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_01: This is no longer is this tool just being deployed for businesses or districts.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_01: This tool is being deployed and it can be used the exact same way for good or for bad.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I think this is the first opportunity that we've got to start to think about hey, uh, how can we start to think about AI right usages from both our application but also the adversaries?
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_01: And it's just it's it's a new dilemma.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_04: It's just bringing in a whole heapload of stuff.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think uh in our sense too, you look at all these different products, and we're already talking about that they're introducing AI, but to what you just said, it's like, so what can we recreate, you know, with the existing AI tools that will then replace that and all lives in within the same ecosystem, um, which would be extremely beneficial.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and then, you know, thinking back to some of the other points about this, like one thing that strikes in my head too is just like, so if I have, in our case, Google, it's a walled garden, great, this is where all our data is.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_00: But what about when the call is coming from inside the house?
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_00: So, like we were just talking about earlier, like the students like have seen the examples where you press it enough, and sometimes it'll be like, oh, I did find this in the HR Google Drive.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like I'm trying to find the salary ranges for them.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_00: And they're like, great, you know, looking at that, uh, oh, here it is.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, here's a whole document up there.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, oh, that's not my document, but guess what?
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_00: Now I can see it.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_00: And in theory, it's done what they've said there, you know, what the terms and services have done.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_00: It they didn't pull that out or share that outside, but you know, someone now inside or a student who knows how to, you know, negate the right way and convince it that I can't do it or what's happening.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like all of a sudden, so what other information, right?
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_00: How are we not only worrying about those external threats and then looking at like how are we keeping all of this contained within?
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's yeah, it can it can snowball pretty quickly.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_03: Gentlemen, this feels like an awesome place to kind of give final thoughts.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_03: Like, if we're thinking about this episode, we're thinking about the two statistics we covered that I I think honestly were were inextricably, inextricably linked.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, where are your thoughts?
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_03: Like, what are your closing thoughts here?
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_03: I can tell you I learned something really critical for this episode.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_03: The first and foremost thing is never pitch Evan and lead with AI.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_03: You have to start with like core fundamental value.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_03: The second important thing here, I think, is like the theme that comes out from these two statistics.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_03: It's velocity, it's speed.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_03: Right?
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_03: These are like unbelievable changes that are happening.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_03: Whether it's coding a threat autonomously in six days, or whether it's impacting 94% of the people that have taken a survey to say, yeah, we almost have a unanimous position where we're all gonna start to change things because of what's happening.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_03: Like that's an unbelievable speed we need to deal with.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_04: And this is something that just it's not gonna go away, it's gonna continue to accelerate.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_04: How about you, Evan?
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the speed thing rings really true with me, and and education is much like steering the Titanic in the sense of how we we get things done or our pivot on there.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_00: So that that's always just a little scary uh thinking about how we're going to try and adapt.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it definitely also just, you know, and having conversations like this one and just with our other peers and going out there and seeing it's like we definitely, you know, have to find the balance um between burying our heads in the sand and sticking with what you want to ever you want to call the traditional values and just doing that, which I think there's absolutely a place for.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_00: And like Paul said, it's like, yeah, don't come to me to start off and just say, hey, it's a it's great.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, cool, but what are we here for?
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like what what's happening?
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_00: So we want to take that into consideration.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I also don't want to leave, you know, we have educators, students, all who are trying to, you know, get to those next levels.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_00: And so how are we gonna help them and do that and make sure that we're all on the same page, um, not only within my district, but then you gotta start to expand it, right?
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_00: It goes out further and further uh in doing that.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_00: And so yeah, it's just a speed thing for sure, and trying to find how you harness that speed is not an easy task, but you know, I'm hoping that you get all the right people in the room that have that same realization and can kind of work with you on it.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_01: No, that's I mean, for me, I I think I'm gonna echo a lot of the same thing, so I'll keep it kind of short here.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_01: But um clearly, speed was definitely a theme for me.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's how do we start to right in the K-12 situations, educate, right?
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_01: You have a choice, right?
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_01: At the end of the day, um, we can do these things in a certain way.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_01: But at the same time, too, is when we think about defenses, we didn't talk much about that on this cast today.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_01: But I think at the end of the day, is we understand and we should be knowing that entrance unauthorized is becoming so much more accessible.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so taking a look back in, and I know if anyone hears some of these over and over, is I go back to know your inventory, know your assets, know how you're configuring those, know how they're being used, right?
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_01: So you can limit what your actual footprint can be.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because again, it's one thing to just kind of like poke around, do things right to learn.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_01: Another thing is to do things for malicious action and those negative outputs, right?
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_01: Whether it's that France um grocery store, right, that got pounded on their um refrigerators, uh, right.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_01: So something simple as that, where you might not think that's a really big issue.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_01: But when you now take off 20 supermarkets and you start to degrade the meat, and now what does that equate from business like those are just, I think, the untold impacts.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where I want speed to be amazing for good.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_01: But we asked be aware sometimes it's appropriate to slow down, right?
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_01: Why, what, and who's making the decision.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_03: Awesome.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_03: Well, gentlemen, thank you so much for this time.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_03: This has been incredible.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_03: I hope you don't mind.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna get back to walking down Hollywood Boulevard and checking out California.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_01: Wait, the sun?
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, sorry.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna put my sunglasses back on.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_00: And what was that, Evan?
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_00: Lysane, I don't even know what that looks like.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_00: You said the sun.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_00: I'm still waiting for that.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_01: U2 in Circus, New York.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_00: There you go.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_00: Well, again, thank you.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you guys for the time, man.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely appreciate it.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, good conversation.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you guys for having me.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_00: For sure.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_03: All right, listener, appreciate you listening.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_00: Be well, stay safe.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_00: We'll talk to y'all soon.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_04: Take care.