Latest / Citizen Frame / Wishmaster Special with writer, Peter Atkins

Transcript

Wishmaster Special with writer, Peter Atkins · Citizen Frame

0:00
Music.
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Careful what you whisper hey everybody welcome back
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to another exciting episode of citizen frame we're finally wrapping
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up halloween month halloween month and a half halloween
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two months now we're bleeding into christmas it's taking a chore it's taking
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a chore on us but we finally are wrapping up with the long-awaited special with
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uh pete atkins screenwriter novelist and so forth renaissance man they are the
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renaissance man bit of a strength but god bless you yeah,
1:04
now he's all the way you're california man now aren't
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you i don't know i don't know whether i like
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it being expressed quite that way here but yeah you live
1:12
in california i've lived off my life in california now i
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realize yeah yeah oh you have okay well well
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i'm so old that it's not quite half my life but
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i've lived i've lived here 31 years
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ah okay cool all right now you but you're originally from liverpool yes the
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liverpool man okay so let me ask you this before i have to end the call are
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you a liverpool fan of do you follow premier league listen i know a trap when i hear one.
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Yeah so let me say this my dad
1:50
used to take me to anfield when i was a little kid
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but the truth is and much to my dad's disappointment i was one for the arts
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not the athletics yeah so to be honest okay i was i was kind of i was a liverpool
2:05
supporter rather than everton by default because that's what me house was.
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I mean, me dad's house. Yeah.
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But the truth is I wasn't really that into it.
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No, I was into it in 1966 when Alf Aerosmith played for the reserves.
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I don't know if I remember his name, but, um, yeah, I wasn't now living here.
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I'll sometimes watch premier league. I mean, obviously we didn't have the premier
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league, which is first division when I was a kid, But I'll put a Premier League
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game on on Saturday morning if they carry it here.
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Not so much to enjoy or appreciate the football, because I'm just ignorant.
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I don't really know what's good about it.
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But just the little sort of touch of home, like, look at those arseholes in the crowd.
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Look at snowing on them, poor fuckers. They're in shorts. My God. What?
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So it's probably, it's probably a little nostalgia for you as well.
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Yeah. That's what I was going to say. Yeah. It's just a little touch of home.
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So that's cool. I get it. I do like to, you know, pick fights with me,
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American friends who try to explain American football to me.
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And I just say the thing about, cause you know, they call it soccer, not football.
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And I say, the thing about soccer is the whistle blows and you play for 45 minutes.
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And then the whistleblowers and you have a little rest and then the whistleblowers
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and you play for 45 minutes.
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American football, it drives me insane. They stop every football game.
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It's a strategic game, man.
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Strategic. I know it is. I appreciate in the abstract, I understand a lot.
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But you see, I think with you growing up in, or half growing up in Boston, Kieran.
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You get that on a cellular level. the way we understand or don't quite understand soccer or cricket.
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It's like it's just there. It's part of the culture. And if you don't grow up
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with baseball and American football, it's difficult to... Yeah,
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it's tough to adapt to. I agree.
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Boston, then Minnesota. Big baseball, football time, especially ice hockey. Yeah, right.
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I could play ice hockey tonight in Belfast. It's that fucking cold.
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But that's another story. But yeah, Peter did notice that you were actually
4:35
drinking from a cup that's actually an England football team cup.
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Funnily enough, this was a gift from our mutual friend Steve Jones and his partner
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Mandy Slater because I don't know if you know this about Mandy Trev,
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she wins things all the time. Yes.
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Yes. Computations. Yes.
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And whenever they come to visit, it's like, here's the swag bag.
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Yeah. And Mandy will just hand over, you know, bars of chocolates.
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Licensed mugs t-shirts hats yeah
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because she's just got so yeah so i
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this is how ignorant of football i
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am kieran i didn't realize it was
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an england football the three lines is
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the all right yes that's that's that they have on
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their shirt yeah yeah i had it for about a year before
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somebody said that so i was oh really oh i thought it
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was just a riff on the flag or something yeah yeah
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now you in the
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set could be wrong in the 70s this is
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an interesting little fact you started along
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with two other names we're all going to be familiar with unless
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i'm wrong doug bradley and clive barker who this
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dog company theater group yes is this
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correct yeah yeah when i
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think theater group and no disrespect i don't think i want
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to think clive barker or yourself i would think doug bradley because he's an
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actor right so i always forget there's you know playwrights did you start more
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of a playwright well that kind of group we're all we were all performers i i
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won't dignify us with the word actors and but we were performers.
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It had i i don't know how much time you
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want to waste on this it was we were
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we it was fringe theater avant-garde theater
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workshop theater so yeah we all
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had input into productions but clive certainly
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emerged as the playwright for the company and was very much the artistic director
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of the company but he and i technically were actors alongside dog and i've been
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saying for 40 years and nobody will ever stop me.
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There was only one worse actor than me in dog company.
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And that was Clive Barker because we were, as we both fucking terrible.
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Doug was great. There's a guy called Phil Rimmer who, who didn't stay in the
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arts or entertainment, unfortunately, he was a great comic actor.
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We had Lynn Darnell, who was the first Mrs. Doug Bradley, Julie Blake.
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Basically, those five, that was the core group of what became Dog Company.
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It was slightly bigger than that when we started in 1974.
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And then by the time I left after that core group of five, I left in 1980, I think.
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And we brought in Ollie Parker and Mary Roscoe.
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We were such a little cult that even though I was leaving, I supervised the
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auditions for my replacements for some reason.
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I still don't understand maybe maybe clive just needed some company but me and clive auditioned,
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ollie and mary and they were picked to be in dog
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company and the reason i mention that specifically is they're both
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lovely people and still working to this day ollie went
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on to be quite a significant director mary most
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recently was in ted lasso for example but ollie
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even though he wasn't part of the liverpool mafia of me
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clive and dog he too became part
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of the hellraiser and nightbreed family ollie
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famously plays the part that dog was offered instead of pinhead which is the
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delivery man the moving guy yes yeah the delivery guy who ends up head first
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in the mattress to let julia yes that's ollie in both movies ollie plays delivery
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man in hellraiser That's right.
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And of course, there's Pelican in Nightmare. I realize this is very inside baseball,
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but I assume your viewers are probably. Yeah.
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A lot of our viewers will be more really interested because,
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you know, I mean, horror is definitely going to be the target audience.
9:02
Yeah. Genre of choice, I guess you can say, but no, I mean, it's,
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it's cool stuff because obviously you're known more for it as the writing,
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the novels, Morningstar, Big Thunder.
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I want to read this book just for the title, Stacy and her idiot.
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Just a short story. It's a standalone little ebook on, on Amazon,
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but it's, it's part of a short story collection of mine called rumors of the
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marvelous, but thank you. Yes. I was proud of that title.
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I thought, I thought that it's a catchy, you're going to want to read it, right? So thanks.
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Yeah. Yeah. Somebody, I think fantastic fiction. One of the websites has it
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listed as a novel and I don't know how to get in there and explain to them that it isn't. But.
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Funnily enough, it's about, I mean, she's American Irish, but she's genetically
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a tough-as-nails Belfast lesbian occult detective is the lead of that story.
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I've read the story, the collection, Rumours of the Marvelous,
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and I was actually just rereading some of your fiction recently,
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Pete, while I was reviewing the new Alchemy Press book, We'll Always Have Alchemy.
10:20
And the return of Boy Wonder, isn't it?
10:24
Boy Justice. Boy Justice. Sorry, sorry. My apologies. Boy Justice.
10:28
No, it's all right, because legally I couldn't say Boy Wonder. Yeah.
10:32
Yeah. Yeah. Good stuff. No, thanks.
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The reason I bring up the relationship with Bradley and with Barker is because
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you made the transition to film with Hellraiser 2.
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That was your first screenplay right it
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certainly was yeah we um i mean if you want the the eyes dotted and the t's
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crossed we had we'd scammed a couple of grants out of the merseyside arts association
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so we'd made a couple of art house movies independent this is way back still in the.
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Dabbled in film as as indies
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before but yes my my professional
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entry was was literally
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where because clive had done the first
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one obviously written dead directed hellraiser yeah so my entry into the fresh
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and literally came up when clive phoned me and said have you ever written a
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screenplay and i said no he said okay look a producer's going to call you in
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five minutes And he's going to ask you if you've written a screenplay. Just tell him you have.
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So that's what happened. So it was all built on a lie.
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Well, is that pretty much the true? Is that the experience of most Hollywood stories, isn't it?
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Yeah, exactly right. Yeah. Exactly.
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So when it comes to the big boy, well, actually, I want to embarrass you real quick.
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Yeah. No offense. let's talk about the software porn,
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that you wrote about it's called the Inside Out series Inside Out 1 and Inside
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Out 2 and they are collectible, they're anthology tales I guess,
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kind of like Tales from the Crypt but for pervs,
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and well Trevor would love it,
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Trevor's favorite thing is porn he's got the full set, he's got the box set
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behind him, I can see it exactly, yeah we can see what?
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The box set yeah yeah.
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But what when you did I believe you did the Hellrages first Hellrages 2 and
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then 3 came out then you or no maybe it was just Hellbound first came out and
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then you did these collective short,
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films like for it was for like HBO or Cinemax or something like that it wasn't
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you know the point of yeah you're doing you know Debbie Does Dallas,
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But was that something that's fallen in your lap?
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Like I said, yourself included there.
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You've got Alex Jopane, Tony Randall, we're all part of that group.
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So did that just, someone just call you up? Do you have an agent that kind of
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makes those kind of offers or what, how does that work?
13:24
Sure. Yeah, you're exactly right. It was...
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I think it was between Hellbound and Hellraiser 3.
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I might have been working on a version of Hellraiser 3, but not the version
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that ended up getting made.
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Because I think they were, I think the inside outs were 89, 90-ish, maybe. I don't know.
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But you're exactly right to point out that sort of odd Venn diagram of arthouse
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indie directors and porn.
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Because what it was it was a co-production between propaganda films which i
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want to shorthand it and say was david lynch's company i don't think it was
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david lynch's company but i would probably say it was david lynch.
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Well we when we parked in the
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the parking lot for story meetings lynch's spot was
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right there so it was like and i'm still you know i'm still
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relatively new to the business i don't think i'm not even sure i'd
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moved here yet so the thrill pull it
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because you used to see the propaganda logo on the
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end of twin peaks yes so pulling into the parking lot and it's just a little
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shit you know a little one-story adobe building somewhere in hollywood i can't
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remember what it was but i'd pull in and there would be the sign propaganda's
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logo and there'd be a parking,
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spot reserved for david lynch and it was like i'm in fucking hollywood now this is great,
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but it was a it was a co-production between
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lynch had nothing to do with it and i do not
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want to sully the great man's name by suggesting that
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neither he nor mark frost were involved in this show which as you say was called
15:09
inside out but what it was is they had done a co-production deal with the playboy
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channel so i guess i guess it's playboy channel money and propaganda films and,
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contact sheet you know who can we phone who do we know and as you say you get odd people in there.
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And the executive producer the guy we dealt with
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when we were doing the scripts i just
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did two episodes tony randall who
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i'd worked with on hellbound obviously he directed
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those two scripts and he he
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directed at least one more in the series
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but i wasn't involved in it i can't remember who wrote that one but
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i think tony had three episodes and i had two alexander
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pain as you say couple of other names that went to
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do you know well that's i mean it's well
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it's one of the main reasons about 20 randles because you like you said you
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work with them so it's such a small click it's such a big vast hollywood scene
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that you would end up in this tiny little pond within a larger pond yeah you
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You know, and you end up, you know.
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But again, this was after Hellbound.
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It was, yeah. Yeah, so it was in between. Oh, but you know what?
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I am very grateful to that show because I wasn't in Hellbound because it was
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produced in England, even though it was American money.
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I wasn't, didn't qualify me to join the Writers Guild.
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So I wasn't protected. protected and you
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know i don't get any residuals for hellbound for example which
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is really annoying because that's the one that sells most secondary would have
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bought me isn't hellbound i haven't seen it in a while and forgive me for that
16:57
one but i've seen all the hellraiser films and if i'm not mistaken isn't hellraiser
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2 the most well-received one.
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Well, yes and no. We actually got pretty bad reviews at the time.
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Okay. Not only, it was funny, we got the bad reviews we wanted,
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which were bad reviews from mainstream press.
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Like there's a rag I'm sure you guys are familiar with called the Daily Mail. Yes.
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Yeah. Burn in hell. Yep.
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Some, oh, I was about to use the word I'm not allowed to use.
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Care anymore i was just about
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to say some fucking twat at
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the daily mail sean usher by the way
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i will name the guilty party because he named us
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turned out he was a horror writer himself i found
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out decades later but he reviewed hellbound
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and called in the review for
17:58
the jailing and he named us of.
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Peter atkins tony randall and clive barker who
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should be jailed for inflicting this kind
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of nauseating filth in the public
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unbelievable yeah oh yeah it was great it
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was like oh yes that's that's that's the best press
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you can get for a horrible press you can get exactly from the
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mainstream but also to be honest the
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the genre press because they
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knew an american had been brought into direct hellbound
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so the uk genre press was
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a little sniffy about hellbound because they
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thought who are these guys and why are
18:38
they messing with clive barker's vision and obviously
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you know they didn't know five and i's history there would be 20
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year friends and colleagues at that well probably
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only about 12 years because we were so young back
18:51
then but been together a long long time so we
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didn't get great reviews but it's a
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very long-winded answer kieran i'm sorry time has been
19:01
time's been very kind to hellbound and.
19:04
Now i won't say
19:07
it's always number one in the hellraiser polls
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but it kind of is or at least it's it's up there
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with the first one people so you kind
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of like do you feel like it's more of a like most horror
19:19
films especially in the 80s especially if i think of carpenter it
19:22
is more of a cult status yeah the
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hellraiser movies were never i mean the people who
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love them love them we have we have it's still
19:31
you know to all farts like me it's still really touching
19:34
that after like 35 years you still get people into this stuff but it's they
19:42
were never nightmare on elm street or friday the 13th or halloween we never
19:46
got those kind of numbers they were they were profitable films because they
19:51
were relatively inexpensive,
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but they were b-movie is a loaded obviously i don't know i i'll interrupt you
20:00
there because you know what i i feel as you as you're talking about them the
20:04
hellraisers and this might i might be completely wrong.
20:08
Almost come off more like art house cinema than they do the traditional movies.
20:12
You just mentioned Nightmare on Elm Street and Friday 13th, which is just body
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count where the hell raisers are more thought provoking, a little more raw,
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a little more really think about what they're trying to do here. That kind of thing.
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Maybe that's more depth. I think without doubt.
20:30
Yeah. Keep it up lads. Yes, absolutely. Cause cause cause you're dealing with
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fucking intellectuals here. Of course. Well, let's go back to your porn again.
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I do want to wrap that story up, actually, because I'm sure this will happen
20:45
a lot through the course of the conversation.
20:47
There will be a lot of danglers and sub clauses that we don't get back to finish.
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I want to say two things. Another later Dog Company member who I didn't audition,
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it was literally later than me, but Simon Bamford was also technically later
21:04
part of Dog Company who went on to be the Butterball Sanabite in the Hellraiser movies.
21:10
So Dog Company was a sort of compost heap from which the nightmare blooms of Hellraiser in there.
21:18
That was one dangling. And I want to confirm your opinion about the Inside Out
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show with the very pithy phrase that I was given as instruction when I was hired to do them.
21:31
The exec producer was a guy called Alan Poole, P-O-U-L, who again,
21:36
I think had worked with Lynch or, but again, like the names you mentioned,
21:41
Kieran, he, his credentials were arthouse indie credentials, not porn credentials.
21:48
So, but he'd been hired to be the exec producer on this thing.
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And when you were describing it earlier, the phrase, I remember to this day
21:59
that Alan said to me was, okay, here's what we're doing.
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The twilight zone with tits give me some of that and that was that was the log
22:08
line for the show what would rod sterling think.
22:14
Give me a drink i'm not sure rod would
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object to a well yeah yeah yeah exactly if
22:20
it was intrinsic to the story and theme you know
22:23
of course naturally yeah but yeah
22:26
but that was that was the phrase he used twilight zone with
22:29
tits that was our instrument i can't speak for
22:32
that because i never i never viewed him but uh well let's
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let's jump into it i think we need to jump into the big boy here i
22:39
would just i would just like to say that should have been the tagline they should
22:41
have that on the posters twilight zone with tits couldn't
22:45
agree more yeah couldn't agree more sorry kieran well
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they can re-release him now yeah all right um there's a there's a few of them
22:53
it's not just episode one and two it's like there's like oh yeah yeah i just
22:57
did two episodes there was yeah you just did a couple yeah there were two seasons
23:01
in fact i think and it was like there's two seasons but i think there's more oh.
23:07
This was a time where Showtime was doing this kind of stuff with Red Shoe Diaries. With David Duchovny?
23:14
It was David Duchovny started on that. So yeah, it wasn't out of place.
23:19
I mean, we talk about softcore porn. Guys, it's very soft.
23:22
I mean, I don't think porn's even being used in the title, but Wes Craven started
23:26
on that route back in the early 70s.
23:29
There was also The Hunger around about, well, that was later in the 90s.
23:33
It was a little later because I know there was another show called Perversions
23:37
of Science, which was a Tales from the Crypt spinoff.
23:39
I wrote an episode for that as well, as did Dave Scow.
23:43
I don't know if you... David J. Scow is probably a name.
23:46
Yes, wrote The Crow and stuff. He contributed to The Phantasmagoria.
23:50
Yeah, like your good self. Yes, he had a regular column. Yeah, exactly.
23:54
And is a great novelist and short story writer in his own right.
23:59
But that's enough about Dave.
24:02
Dave and I are both a vintage 1955, you know, where
24:06
we're tribally linked but yeah
24:09
dave and i both wrote an episode of perversions of science and and
24:12
dave i didn't write anything for the hunger but i
24:15
think dave wrote an episode for yeah yes he
24:18
did write one because whenever we did the fantasy
24:21
tales special of phantasmagoria we reviewed it
24:24
because the story of dave's was originally appeared
24:27
in fantasy tales ah right right
24:30
yeah yeah and i think the hunger
24:33
didn't they adapt one of ramsay's as well ramsay didn't do the galley
24:36
play but ramsay and graham masterton did
24:38
a couple kim newman as well yeah right yeah
24:42
yeah so yeah for brand lovely
24:45
and a few others i think you know who would be sort of well-known sort
24:48
of british genre writers yeah right yeah
24:52
yeah so there was inside that was a three or
24:55
four years before those ones but perversions of science and
24:58
the hunger and looking back inside
25:01
out they obviously thought at that stage there was just the notion of twilight
25:07
on with heads how do you put it tactfully these days twilight female actors
25:13
um with with horror tropes yeah they thought that was the ticket you know it
25:18
was and i think all those shows did.
25:22
I mean very few of them were renewed there was never a second season of perversions
25:25
of science yeah yeah and i don't think there was a second season of the hunger
25:29
but you know they they did,
25:31
all right yeah kept some of us off the streets gave us a job perversions of
25:37
science by the way was non-erotic there was just a weird name what it should
25:42
have been called was weird science because,
25:45
tales of the cryptos i'm sure you guys know some of your viewers might not tales
25:50
of the crypt is based on an EC comic book. Yep, the old comic books.
25:54
Yeah, right. And a sister publication from EC, which is more science fiction
26:00
than horror, was called Weird Science. So...
26:05
The show perversions of science was meant to be weird science to,
26:10
to match tales from the crypt.
26:13
But 10 years earlier, they'd leased the title weird science to that.
26:19
Do you remember the Kelly Lee? The movie movie.
26:21
Yeah. We did that one for the podcast. Yeah. Right.
26:25
I remember it. Well, as a kid, that was seen as, she looked good coming out
26:29
of that vat, didn't she? Oh yeah, absolutely.
26:32
It's, it's good fun. the philipia and anthony michael
26:35
hall star a young anthony michael hall right it's
26:38
one with like he has the bra on his head or something you know doing the i haven't
26:43
seen it since it came up but that sound that sounds about right yeah yes so
26:49
the the late 90s were coming up and 97 to be exact and a big resurgence for
26:56
our boy west craven god love him.
26:59
With scream and he started producing a
27:02
lot of these other outside the box or all these horror
27:05
mainly for dimension entertainment and so forth and i mean what a grouping here
27:10
you got robert kirschman directing who is the head of knb you got greg detourneau
27:16
doing the visual effects with robert kirschman who's also part of knb you've
27:20
got yourself you probably shouldn't use the phrase head of KNB.
27:25
I think it was, it was an egalitarian. Yes.
27:29
Of Bob. It's their name. Yes. Greg. Yeah. Right.
27:32
Yeah. KNB is their initials. I think Bob thought he was the boss,
27:36
but I'm kidding. I'm kidding.
27:39
Even I even noticed if you got a Harry Benford, DD for the score.
27:43
Oh yeah. And let me ask you this when it comes to the approach of being asked to do this. Yeah.
27:53
Now, I noticed this Wes Craven presents, so I'm going to assume he had nothing really to do with it.
27:58
I'm assuming they put his name on it to kind of promote it a little more because he was hot ticket.
28:04
And this is more of a Kurtzman project, pet project. And how did you get involved?
28:11
You are 50% correct. Oh, okay. That's pretty good. That's pretty good.
28:21
Wes was approached later in the process.
28:26
So you're such a cynic here. And this is terrible.
28:30
I just believe that we all live in the same big horror house.
28:36
No. Yeah. It was, they came to
28:40
Wes before we shot it, but long after I'd written two or three drafts and,
28:48
And your implication, your offensive implications, sir, is that they bought
28:53
his name to put on the movie, which is technically correct.
28:59
Weirdly, in the same way that Clive, because of contractual disputes,
29:03
Clive had nothing to do. I mean, other than creating it in the first place.
29:07
Clive had nothing to do with Hellraiser 3. But then when Miramax distributes
29:11
it, they wanted the brand name back.
29:14
So they, they paid for the Clive Barker presents credit on Hellraiser three.
29:22
Okay. And this was a somewhat similar situation.
29:24
However, I do want to say that I met, I met Wes all of twice. It was a lovely guy.
29:32
Very, very nice. Very calm. I mean.
29:35
Who's around to call me a liar now that wes has gone very
29:39
complimentary about the script which he might have just been nice
29:41
but it was fantastic to hear you know it's yeah of
29:45
course and his production partner marianne maddalena
29:48
was a genuine producer on the movie and so
29:51
so we what would you say wes craven's company
29:54
was involved as one
29:57
of the production production companies that made it but wes
30:01
read the script didn't really have notes on the script but was
30:04
very kind and complimentary and more importantly and
30:08
bob is very good about acknowledging this in
30:11
post-production i mean wes was very
30:14
hands-off you know executive producers don't really produce any
30:18
yeah i know and that's what that's kind of where
30:20
i was going yeah i got you know it wasn't like he was hanging over bob's shoulder
30:25
saying why don't you point the camera there but in post-production during the
30:29
edison apparently wes was really great and would come into the room and help
30:34
okay help Bob and the credited editor credit edit.
30:39
You just, and it just had such a professional eye that, you know.
30:43
It, Bob wasn't a virgin. He directed one previous movie, the demolitionist,
30:47
but he said, Wes was great.
30:50
Just in terms of like, you could cut five frames earlier, just like real sort of insider knowledge.
30:56
This will make it tighter. This will pace it up. So he, yeah,
30:59
because it's a, it's a sophomore outing technically as a director.
31:02
So it's nice to have that.
31:04
That veteran behind you do you
31:07
want that yeah so i
31:09
feel he he earned his no he does
31:12
and now now i feel bad now i feel bad and then
31:15
and then the only other thing and i'm not saying this in any any
31:19
negative way at all but it wasn't a bob project
31:23
bob was hired later it actually
31:27
original and again this is this weird crossover that you've
31:30
mentioned before kieran a former producer
31:33
of david cronenberg's movies a guy called pierre david
31:36
who'd produced at least
31:39
two of the early cronenbergs if not
31:42
three he had a small production company
31:45
that i literally forget the name of now
31:48
was it image might have been image and a
31:52
friend of my a person who'd become a friend of mine who'd been an executive
31:56
at new world was working for pierre he called me out of the blue and this would
32:04
be i don't know 95 96 his name is eric solsky but another one we lost way too early.
32:12
He's Hellraiser connected as well. He wrote some comic book stories for the
32:16
Hellraiser comic book and died of 50, which is fucking terrible.
32:22
But Eric calls me and says, we'd become friends, you know, we'd hang out and
32:27
see movies and go get drunk together and stuff.
32:30
But he calls me and says, do you want to write an evil movie,
32:33
an evil genie movie for Pierre David?
32:36
Who's the Cronenberg producer. I mean, yeah. And I said, as any thinking man
32:41
would, I was fucking down to evil genie movie.
32:44
That's the dumbest idea I've ever had. I'm not coming in to pitch some.
32:49
And Eric soft me and says, you don't have to pitch shit.
32:53
Hellraiser three is a hit and peer will pay you to write an evil genie movie.
32:58
Do you want the job or not?
33:00
At which point I suddenly thought, you know, an evil genie movie. That is a great idea.
33:09
So that's what I, um, i wrote
33:12
i went in and met eric and pierre
33:15
and the guy who actually produced the movie a
33:18
guy called clark peterson the real
33:21
sort of on-set producers were clark yeah i gave trip
33:24
it and then you know the 17 executive
33:28
producers all of whom contributed in the way executive producers do yeah the
33:33
on-set producers were the core yeah yeah people actually did some work you know
33:39
we're yeah with clark peterson and dave trepid so i went in and met with clark and eric and pierre,
33:48
god this is how long ago it is obviously the internet existed because it's 1996.
33:56
But we weren't all using it yet
33:58
so they literally handed me they'd you know they'd been to the xerox machine
34:04
with reference books a big pile of xerox articles about jinn and ifritz and eastern mythology um,
34:17
Which was, you know, I thought it was very decent of him. It's funny you say
34:21
it because there's a scene in the film where you kind of poke fun.
34:25
Some of the writing. When this isn't Robin Williams, Aladdin,
34:29
this isn't blah, blah, blah. This is a real, this is a real killing thing.
34:33
And then there's a whole story that's given to you by Jenny O'Hare's character.
34:40
She is so fucking great in that scene. Yeah. She is. Yeah. She's the one who knows all.
34:47
And pretty much just tells her this is not you know
34:50
disney and and that's where all that data dump
34:52
is that you just said yes i'm folding two
34:55
scenes together i'm sorry she's great in that scene but
34:59
of course later there's a scene where but you
35:03
know she she's not who we think she is at that point
35:06
yeah and she did that i don't
35:09
know if it was technically one take but it she really had
35:12
for a day she came in did both scenes headed back
35:15
to her car in the parking lot and i ran out after
35:18
her and said you know that was fucking fantastic because the
35:22
thing about horror movies i'm not telling you guys anything you
35:25
don't know the thing about horror movies is if you get
35:27
real actors sneering at it
35:30
it comes over in the performances and you
35:33
know jen jenny is not a horror person but
35:37
she just came in and acted the balls off the thing so i
35:40
just i went out and thanked it for it because it's funny you say that because
35:44
one of her performances i think is wonderful in m night's movie called devil
35:50
i don't know if you ever saw yeah right right she's that's the elevator one
35:55
right that's the elevator one yeah and yes spoiler alert people who haven't seen it,
36:00
she's the villain and she plays it so well oh if you haven't seen it too bad too late.
36:08
But yeah when she when she played that part I saw it again Wismaster when she'd
36:14
seen where she's taking over possessed reminds me of the kind of how she played it in Devil and,
36:20
Well, it was a dry run for her, wasn't it? This is why she could kill it in
36:23
Devil, because she'd done it earlier and hours. That's right.
36:28
But yeah, you're right. She's the mouthpiece for the, this is a real mythology
36:34
with complicated theological structures and Ahura Mazda and all that stuff.
36:41
I also love, Pete, by the way, I must say, the references to some,
36:47
well, within the names, of some of the characters to the likes of August Derleth,
36:53
Dennis Hitchison, I believe.
36:56
Yeah.
36:58
Every character and every named building is named after a horror film.
37:04
I saw Kane Hodder and his name was Jay Voorhees on the name badge. Yeah.
37:13
It definitely nods the hat and winks at the audience for sure.
37:17
And I think that's what I love about the film. especially with all the cameos,
37:21
Kane Hodder, Robert England, Joseph Pilato, Reggie Bannister,
37:24
George Buckflower, who was a John Carpenter regular who just sadly passed.
37:27
And obviously, sadly passed himself just recently, Tony Todd.
37:31
Tony just died a couple of months ago. Yeah. Nobody saw that coming and that
37:35
was just heartbreaking. It was too bad. Oh, yeah.
37:38
Yeah. Because I think Tony and I are the same age. He might be like a year older than me.
37:44
But although you guys being kids, you might just three. I'm in my 30s.
37:52
He's not in his 30s. 70. He was 69 years old. I think he was born a year before me.
37:58
And that's not that old. I mean, it's terrible. Not at all.
38:03
And he plays the brilliantly named Johnny Valentine here.
38:09
I love that name. I don't know how sort of in the woods you want to get with this stuff, but just...
38:18
Well, I'll tell you about the, what it was is the reason for all those cameos.
38:22
Obviously I'd put all those gags in the script anyway. Well,
38:25
not, not gags, you know, cause nobody's going to, a gag spoils a horror movie.
38:31
If it throws you out, if it makes you think, Oh, ha ha ha.
38:34
He's made a joke about Algernon Blackwood. Then you're not in the movie.
38:40
So they were just, you know, most people don't know what the August Derleth
38:44
is. Most people don't know why it would be called Blackwood house.
38:48
Most people, you know, so it doesn't matter. So they were just in there for
38:52
the connoisseurs such as yourselves.
38:54
George Groomart and stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah.
38:58
Yeah. We had Jack Finney, Beaumont. Yeah. All of them. All of them.
39:02
I think literally, I just looked over there at my shelves and thought,
39:07
Oh, can't say block. Everybody knows him.
39:11
I think there was, I think there was a professor Lieber in there though.
39:14
That might've got cut out. Yeah.
39:16
I noticed, If you watch Scream, Wes Craven's, that whole film was piled with references like that.
39:25
Right, though I suspect that was Kevin Williamson's. Kevin Williamson, yeah.
39:29
I mean, I'm not taking anything away from Wes. But Kevin being at least a generation
39:37
younger than me, I think even more so was aware of the rich history he could
39:42
play with when he was doing that.
39:44
But what i was going to say about tony tony todd is so i've done all those.
39:51
Invisible cameos in terms of authors names and stuff and then when we were going into prep,
39:58
bob had i'd done about three drafts and then
40:01
they went they sent it to bob when they
40:04
were looking for directors and then bob came on he and i clicked immediately
40:07
both monster kids both grew up loving this
40:10
shit so it was really great process for
40:13
me and him and at
40:16
one point talking about one of the scenes
40:19
he said oh i could it wasn't
40:23
reggie but let's say for argument's sake he said oh i could get reggie bannister
40:26
to do that and a little light went
40:29
on in my head and i said all right you've
40:32
got everybody's phone number haven't you because you
40:35
know because he was the kenny k and b he'd applied
40:38
makeup to all these people to kane
40:41
to robert you know exactly and
40:44
so 99 of the
40:48
cameo casting as opposed to the name check that just came out of it's very old-fashioned
40:53
word now but rolodex and kids if you're watching a rolodex was a physical equivalent
40:59
of your contact list on your iphone so all those things came out of bob's rolodex he would just.
41:06
Robert Englund, Cain Hodder, Reggie as a Slay, Buck Flowers.
41:11
But the one I can take credit for is Tony, because not that I had anything to
41:17
do with Candyman, but because of the Venn diagram crossover. Yes, with Clive.
41:22
Yeah. Shannon Golding, who was an executive for Clive, which was the bigger
41:27
company making the movie, she said she wanted my help to get Tony Todd.
41:34
So we had we had a conference called
41:37
me shannon and tony and it was funny because
41:40
tony was very nice very sharp very
41:43
funny but he didn't want to i
41:46
mean like all actors he wanted to work but he didn't want to come in
41:49
because you know he's a he's a he's a bouncer
41:52
he's a bouncer who gets killed in a two and
41:55
a half page scene so he
41:58
wasn't in any way unpleasant but he sort of
42:01
pushed me a bit and said well you know who is this guy why would we
42:04
interested in being this guy so i just
42:06
had to sort of make it up on the spot and it
42:09
was like well you know it's tony that you know the way
42:12
backstories work i mean this guy he's too cool to be
42:15
about i'm just make bullshit bullshit bullshit bullshit
42:18
it's too cool to be a bouncer so you know he's got a
42:20
complicated life and he's probably hiding from something
42:24
and i'm i'm going on and i can hear okay little hmm
42:27
from from tony and then and
42:30
then it nearly got me he said yeah yeah so
42:34
you really thought about this guy i'm this is not verbatim it's it's 30 years
42:39
ago but suddenly he said oh so you really thought about this guy huh and i said
42:43
oh yeah yeah and he said what's his name and i said what because it was just
42:48
the bouncer in in the in the draft that tony dread and he said what's his name i said.
42:54
It's a it's a cool name and he
42:57
said what what's his name and by this
43:00
stage we were teasing each other like i could
43:03
tell he was gonna say yes but yeah yeah me a
43:06
bit and he says what's his name for the third time
43:08
and i said his name tony is johnny
43:12
copacetic and he barks a
43:16
laugh i says copacetic that's that is two on the fucking nose man that is two
43:23
on the nose and i said and i just finished my second novel big thunder in which
43:30
a resurrected pulp hero from 90 doesn't matter.
43:35
Valentine dyson was the name of a character in big thunder so he says copacetic
43:40
is two on the nose So I said, you're right. It's Johnny Valentine.
43:44
And Tony goes, I like that.
43:48
And that's how we got him so so he wasn't the rest
43:51
is history yeah the rest is history so and
43:54
you know it was to some extent bullshit because
43:57
obviously none of that history is in there in
43:59
the scene but it was and this is you know
44:03
it's this is acting in miniature in a way this is
44:06
how acting works just that conversation meant that
44:08
all that shit was in tony's head which you
44:11
know he's a great actor anyway he didn't need that conversation with me but
44:16
even though whatever bullshit i came up with for the backstory on the phone
44:22
call none of it's in the movie but i would yeah i would carried it with him
44:25
you know yeah i would have to say as as a viewer once you hear the name.
44:31
Johnny valentine i know with tony's great voice
44:34
you immediately as a viewer say this guy has
44:37
a history this guy what was he some sort
44:40
of you know was he or
44:43
not on the side of
44:46
the law exactly hiding from why is
44:49
he yeah so it just shows you the sort of the importance
44:52
of a name like that especially with someone like tony
44:55
todd well yeah because it because i always say
44:58
this for all the actors i've been lucky enough to work with
45:01
it's one you know you can
45:04
write a piss elegant line for penhead or a funny line
45:07
for the gin or whatever but if you don't have the
45:10
actor actors of the caliber to
45:13
deliver that shit with both commitment and internal
45:17
spin it's meaningless you know
45:20
if you get a shitty actor nobody's i
45:24
remember one time i won't name the movie
45:27
or the people involved but there was
45:31
a scene playing in a movie i'd written and a
45:36
friend of mine i'm probably name him actually it was neil gaiman had called
45:41
me after he'd seen the movie and he said i was watching whatever it was and
45:47
he said and halfway through the conversation in the kitchen i suddenly thought
45:51
well there's nothing wrong with this dialogue pete's not doing a bad job.
45:56
But he'd thought I'd done a bad job because it was not well performed or directed.
46:04
And it was interesting that it was very kind of him to say that.
46:07
But he had that revelation of, oh, no, you know what? Those lines aren't bad.
46:14
It's just the delivery. so anyway that
46:17
proves a negative what i'm saying that it's like yeah you
46:20
really it's such a blessing to
46:23
have actors that will commit
46:26
and deliver and the funny thing is
46:29
when you talk about that you know horror movies a lot of horror movies probably
46:33
wishmaster itself can get a teasing or slasher
46:36
films in general get teased because of acting or whatnot right most horror films
46:41
do actually but the funny thing is to pay back what you said it is it's got
46:46
to be really hard for to be in a horror film because most horror films you a
46:51
believe it or not have to have comedic timing.
46:55
Because of this a lot of it's self-aware now and but
46:59
you got to play it straight at the same time and that's
47:02
not easy to do especially when you're covered in latex
47:05
i mean this is the really impressive thing obviously
47:09
i had nothing to do with the nightmare movies but we were lucky enough
47:12
to get robert in for wishmaster so so
47:16
i feel a familial connection so you know robert
47:19
buried under latex dog buried under latex
47:22
in the hillroids movies andrew buried under latex in wishmaster you know three
47:27
fucking hours in the chair they're miserable but they still manage to come in
47:33
and and do what you're talking about kieran convey that thing that they need
47:37
to convey hey, get the timing right.
47:39
Put just enough of a twinkle in the eye that it's not undercutting what's going on. But so...
47:47
And, you know, I was particularly lucky that Doug and Andy, Andy Devoff in Wishmaster
47:54
were just, you know, great, great, great at delivering that kind of dialogue and stuff.
48:00
And Andy Devoff is great with those sort of snarling lines, you know,
48:05
those one liners, you know, and that way delivers them in that sort of snarling sort of way.
48:10
Oh yeah he was great he was great and obviously it's like in a weird way and
48:18
i think we all felt this at the time certainly by the time we'd finished even
48:22
if not when we were doing it.
48:24
It's a 1997 movie but it's really a sort of farewell to the 80s you know sort
48:29
of doffing of the cap to 80s horror so that sort of character horror yeah character
48:35
in makeup horror because as you mentioned earlier,
48:40
the new wave was already happening because we've had scream.
48:43
Well, I mean, you do have the ghost face killer and scream obviously,
48:47
but it's a different ghost face killer every movie, but there is some continuity
48:53
there, but, and soon we were going to get sore and hostile and torture porn.
48:57
Yeah. The old, yeah. I'm going to call it torture porn.
49:00
Yeah. Right. So that, that, that, whatever that,
49:04
that creature driven character, the creature-driven thing
49:07
of your freddies your leather faces your
49:10
pinheads your michaels your jasons that
49:15
was sort of we were at the end of
49:18
that cycle yeah so master i think is a kind of you know what do you call senior
49:24
class reunion kind of thing yeah yeah it was almost like a swan song you know
49:29
saying goodbye to the the classic 80s to the to the new self-aware horror or
49:34
the torture point that we're about to get. Right, right.
49:37
Yeah. Now, what I loved about Wismash, and I want to go over this real quick, because, uh...
49:42
Is a it doesn't overstay its
49:45
welcome it's an hour and a half b there's not
49:49
a dull moment in the entire film i'm watching
49:51
it and it's just about this asshole going
49:55
from point a to point b to point c and and
49:59
killing people in different ways so technically it's a slasher film but smartly
50:04
slightly a little more smarter smarter than the slasher film because the way
50:08
it's executed it's smart enough to know he's got to go from the construction
50:14
worker to the pawn salesman.
50:17
To get the opal into Alexander's hands.
50:21
And it's how he tracks her down each step of the way.
50:25
And it's clever when he goes to the police department, gets the cop,
50:29
get her address, all these different ways. And that's where I find the film
50:33
is quite smart and clever.
50:34
It's how he gets to point A, how he gets to point B. you know and that's and
50:39
you don't cheat and i kind of i really i really admire that,
50:43
but the but the the icing on
50:46
the cake for wishmaster to me is the visual effects i think the visual effects
50:52
in this film still hold out it is a young it's got some young cgi in there which
50:57
works quite well with mixed with practical some mat all this right we just talked
51:03
about it when we're saying goodbye to the 80s,
51:05
we're kind of, sadly, we're getting away from practical at the time,
51:08
and everything's going to CGI.
51:09
So it was almost like passing up the torch to a newer technology.
51:13
And I think Wismaster really does that well.
51:16
And that's good. I was to Kurtzman and Craig Nuttero and the KMB team.
51:21
Oh, yeah. No, they were fantastic. And, yeah, I mean, they were the kings of that stuff.
51:26
They were the kings of practical physical effects for that.
51:31
Well, I don't want to limit the reign, I was going to say, for that decade.
51:35
Obviously, it's longer than the decade. Yeah, they started with the Reaminator.
51:39
Is that where they kind of started? I think, K&B. I don't know if that's the
51:43
first credit. I can't remember, yeah. But yeah, yeah.
51:46
And, you know, because Greg Nicotero is like.
51:49
I don't know if he's technically showrunner, but he's, he's a big exec producer
51:53
on walking dead and he's still doing, you know, lots, lots of good practical effects there.
51:59
And I mean, thanks for that care. And I agree. Obviously that's no credit.
52:03
I mean, I had to invent the debt, the deaths, but that's what I want to ask
52:07
me, dude, you either got to be fucking batshit crazy. I am.
52:11
Or psychotic or something to be able to come up with such these,
52:15
these clever little, these deaths.
52:18
I mean, the kate harder one was brilliant and the tony
52:20
todd one was even funnier you know you want to escape yeah yeah
52:24
right uh you know i i thought that was
52:26
a bit a little bit awkward the way he manipulated him into that one but i i
52:32
was some of the other deaths the more sort of the ones you know in persia at
52:37
the beginning you know where the i found them particularly effective you know
52:40
like the guy who's like turns into like he's half snake and stuff or are the
52:44
there's this other guy who,
52:46
well, his skeleton self comes in a really gruesome manner, which is great,
52:50
comes out of his skin, and then later on, we also have the statues coming alive
52:55
and stuff, which is great.
52:57
Yeah, they're very great. Harry House in stop motion was being used then.
53:02
And my favorite sequence you just talked about there, Trevor,
53:05
is she's walking down the hall of statues.
53:09
That is some of the funnest stuff.
53:12
Just so fun. I agree. I thought that I was really, really impressed.
53:18
I was on set throughout Wishmaster. Most writers don't get that luxury,
53:23
but I was there throughout, and it was great.
53:26
So I saw everything shot, and I've got to admit, I think I admitted it to Bob at the time.
53:34
On set, I wasn't sure the statues were going to work because,
53:39
you know, I could see the actors' body language settling into place as they did it.
53:45
And I thought, everybody's going to know those are people.
53:49
But they didn't. You know, when I saw the dailies the next day,
53:52
the rushes, it was like, fucking hell. They're great effects. They look like statues.
53:56
You know what's a great effect as well around this point in the film as well?
54:00
It's the first time you watch it. even on a rewatch I'd forgotten about it because
54:04
it'd been a few years whenever Jack the Ripper jumps out of the painting oh
54:08
yeah I'd forgotten that too I thought that was Dr.
54:12
Jekyll I think it's Jack the Ripper I think it's Dr.
54:16
Jekyll it's a Victorian London top-hatted badass killer yeah Dr.
54:25
Jekyll could be Jack the Ripper what makes you guys think dr jekyll wasn't jack
54:31
the repper there you go there you go wow you're so creative,
54:37
i've no idea you know what i would literally have to go and look at the script,
54:42
because it's one of them obviously.
54:47
To remember which one yeah i think it was jack the repper i think that makes
54:53
more sense i guess But you know what? I'm not sure.
54:57
I think that might be... There were a couple of gags in... Because obviously,
55:01
it's not like KNB need me to invent deaths.
55:06
They can invent lots of deaths. It's what they specialize in.
55:12
I did invent most of the deaths for the thing, but they are utterly capable
55:17
of doing it. And there were a couple of things where they had...
55:21
Like they had existing bits or props, you know what I mean?
55:26
And, and it might be that the Jekyll and Hyde or Jack the Ripper,
55:31
they might've had the costume or the portraits that might, it will have been in by the sound.
55:40
The production draft will have had that in, but it might, I might possibly not
55:44
even have invented that.
55:45
The only reason I thought it was Hyde because he comes out and he's very monstrous
55:50
looking with the sharp teeth yeah it looks like he's transformed into something
55:55
and that's why I thought it was Hyde not Ripper the more I think about it I mean I don't know,
56:00
there's almost like a Phantom of the Opera type sort of Doctor Mr.
56:05
Hyde sort of look up at him you know you see you've uncovered the secret subtext
56:10
of Wishmaster which is the proof that the Phantom Mr.
56:14
Hyde and Jack the Ripper the same guy well there you go Exclusive, yeah.
56:20
There you go. Some exclusive. And then Sherlock Holmes comes to investigate
56:25
them, but it's foiled by Dracula.
56:28
The 1890s, fucking hell. All that shit going on.
56:32
The Penny Dreadful era, yeah. Yeah, exactly. But can I just,
56:36
I want to rewind just for one second to give credit where it's due.
56:40
Because my old mate, Gary Tunnicleff, who is another Hellraiser alum, you'd mentioned the...
56:48
Guy whose own skeleton climbs out of his body yeah best effect of the movie
56:53
i love that effect well that was good that you see but now you'll never get
56:57
a bob kurtzman interview kieran you just he's just just because that well sorry
57:03
i gotta get credit where credit's due man,
57:05
yeah they hired because it was so effects heavy so effects driven even it's
57:11
that's why they went for bob you know after handed it in i think with clark
57:15
peterson the producer i'd mentioned earlier,
57:18
He said, we're going to have to find a director who not only,
57:21
you know, knows how to shoot effects,
57:24
but he didn't say can do it on the sheet, but that's why Bob's name came up
57:30
because it was like, wait, if we get him to direct,
57:33
we kind of get KMB into the bargain, you know? Exactly.
57:37
They did the same thing with Carl Buechler who sadly passed.
57:40
Carl Buechler was a. Right.
57:42
Yeah. He did. We famously talked about his, how we got screwed over with Friday 13th, new blood.
57:48
Where the MPAA and this producer on the set had destroyed his vision.
57:55
But it's kind of like stuntmen now directing action films. It kind of makes sense. Right. Right.
58:01
And I got to ask you one thing though. Finally getting a category,
58:05
right? There's some people are going to get a category next year. They should.
58:09
I think they're talking about that. They're finally going to give.
58:13
John Bruce will probably get it.
58:15
And stuntmen. Oh, But I was just going to say, so because it was so effects
58:19
heavy, the producers said, we're going to have to get a second effects unit
58:24
in because KNB are working 24-7 anyway.
58:28
So we brought Gary in and he did several of the gags. But yeah, the skeleton one is...
58:36
I also really like the one... I'll raise a tonic.
58:39
I also really like, well obviously the birth of the gin is great with the guy
58:45
who sadly Verne Troyer who played Mini Me he sadly passed away in recent years as well,
58:53
But also there's the bit where the chin rips, peels off the guy's face in the
58:58
morgue, you know, before he does that thing to the morgue attendant's eyes,
59:03
you know, that's quite, yeah, that's pretty cool, gruesome effect and makeup.
59:08
Pretty handsome, yeah. Yeah. I think we're going to...
59:11
Oh, good fun, right? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. It's horror. It's got to be good fun.
59:16
But I think we're going to wrap things up a little bit here.
59:19
But I got to ask you something about Robin England. what the hell was that thing coming out of his mouth.
59:26
What Robert Englund I thought he'd get more of a,
59:31
cooler death because he was kind of each caused everything kind of technically
59:35
but I what was that thing that flew out of his mouth was he giving birth to
59:40
another genie I don't know,
59:43
and you know I really should re-watch these movies before.
59:49
I think I think I am remembering this correctly. I might not be.
59:55
I think what I said was that he was basically just turning himself inside out,
1:00:00
that his intestines were coming out.
1:00:03
But again, I think that was an example of K and B browsing the shelves.
1:00:10
We got this dangling thing here. Okay. Okay.
1:00:14
No, that makes sense. It's almost like an inside-out version of himself.
1:00:22
Yes. I think that was a mutation of what I'd... Because it's easy, isn't it?
1:00:28
Big mouth, type, type, type. Oh, and then he turns himself inside out.
1:00:32
It's like, yeah. And then some poor bastard has got to spend seven days building
1:00:37
a bagpipe pump to get these external lungs working.
1:00:42
But I think it was that. I think it was a combination of...
1:00:45
What I'd said blithely in the script and what they had in the trick bag, you know? Yeah.
1:00:54
It looks very, let me ask you this before we let things go here.
1:00:58
And first and foremost, I got to say thank you so much for taking this time to talk to us.
1:01:03
Well, we're always, we're always fan boys first.
1:01:07
And it's always nice to the artistic process, artistic process going from the
1:01:12
head to the screen, you know, and what changes or what doesn't.
1:01:16
And what kind of mentioned you in the beginning of the podcast was what I was
1:01:22
impressed with, especially these days, you'll have story by 12 people,
1:01:27
and then you'll have script written by 17 other people.
1:01:31
But Wishmaster, story by and only by you.
1:01:37
So that's a rarity you see these days where you get soul credit.
1:01:41
Well, yeah. I mean, thanks.
1:01:44
It's it's even rarer now unfortunately but yeah oh god yeah yeah used to be that studios.
1:01:54
I have no idea what it was like in the 30s and
1:01:57
40s in the studio system because they
1:02:00
had writers were on staff they were salaried
1:02:03
employees in the 30s and 40s so i
1:02:06
think it would often be a case of well let's pull ben hecht off this movie this
1:02:11
week because we need a dialogue polish on this movie so there'd be all kinds
1:02:15
of that was actually charles mccarthur's line even though you think it's in
1:02:19
the pg woodhouse novel so there's all kinds of shit like that and then,
1:02:25
in the but basically the shorthand
1:02:28
is they figured we were fungible we were
1:02:31
movable modular parts a writer is a
1:02:33
writer oh we did this we didn't quite like that
1:02:36
draft and rather asking him or
1:02:39
her to fix it it's here's a
1:02:42
different one see if they make something we like and yeah that's that's not
1:02:47
the way it should be done no and it rarely produces good results every now and
1:02:53
then you get these odd things where you have to acknowledge for whatever reason
1:02:59
the chem like casablanca.
1:03:02
Is it was written by howard not howard
1:03:05
deutsch that's leah thompson he sees howard karch
1:03:10
um he wrote it and then
1:03:13
because again it was a studio system i think literally
1:03:16
they needed him for another job like i don't think they fired him per se but
1:03:20
they needed him for something else so they brought in the epstein brothers jules
1:03:24
and philip epstein so that is an example where yeah they just got rid of one
1:03:31
writer brought in writer B they were still,
1:03:35
famously the movie the script wasn't even finished when they started shooting it but.
1:03:41
Casablanca is one of the rare examples where it feels seamless.
1:03:44
It's like, oh, this, this is a brilliantly conceived through line, single vision script.
1:03:51
It actually wasn't, but, but I'm in no way disagreeing with you,
1:03:56
Kieran. I'm just giving a sort of famous.
1:03:59
Well, yeah, sometimes maybe the one example.
1:04:02
Yeah, no, no, I understand. But there's a lot of these films that when we're reviewing them,
1:04:06
we're always saying that there's one we just recently did,
1:04:10
the substance which had such potential but
1:04:14
then it went all over the place and you had
1:04:16
us and then it's almost like they swapped screenwriters out
1:04:19
and threw in a body horror and i like or it
1:04:22
just it just didn't it did a mix in match well and
1:04:26
that's kind of what i was going with where you have multiple multiple cooks
1:04:29
in the kitchen i guess you can say oh where it could affect you have no idea
1:04:33
how well you do sorry you do have an idea i apologize but it's worse than you
1:04:39
think i That was one of the great things that the Writers Guild won for writers,
1:04:46
along with residuals and health care and pension.
1:04:49
Because if you left it to the studios, none of us would get any of that.
1:04:53
But the other thing the Writers Guild won 70 years ago was the right to determine the writing credits.
1:05:02
So the producers can't say, oh, my cousin wrote this, or I owe this girl a favor.
1:05:08
Only the writers guild can determine the writers
1:05:11
credits and i worked on the screen credits committee as a volunteer and the
1:05:16
credits review committee as a volunteer which you tend to after you've been
1:05:20
in the business for a while you want to give back to the guild and one of the
1:05:23
ways you do it is to help on the various committees the voluntary committees.
1:05:29
To do with the screenwriting life. So I was involved for quite a while with the credit process.
1:05:36
And there's always an arbitration and anonymous scripts are sent to three qualified
1:05:42
screenwriters to give their verdict on, well, whose script ended up on screen.
1:05:48
So you often get these sort of unfortunate like three-way credits,
1:05:53
but it's because their peers,
1:05:56
their fellow screenwriters looked at it and thought well you
1:05:59
know they used this guy's act one this woman's
1:06:02
act two i mean i'm simplifying obviously but
1:06:05
you do get that and one of the things you do when you volunteer to give back
1:06:12
to the guild is you are sworn to secrecy on terms of but i'll tell you what
1:06:17
the number of fucking a-listers who want to steal credit from poor writers would
1:06:22
make your head spin No, see, that's not cool.
1:06:25
Disgusting. That's not cool. They come in there and make this special,
1:06:27
because if they disagree with the arbitration, they have to appeal to the committee,
1:06:32
so you get three of us to come in.
1:06:34
And anyway, I can't name names. But separately from that. It's okay. I don't mind.
1:06:43
Professionalism is not an option with our podcast. I would say a couple of names
1:06:48
you wouldn't be surprised to find out they were assholes.
1:06:50
And a couple of names you might be heartbroken
1:06:54
to find out they were asshole credit oh i see those are
1:06:57
the ones i don't want to know about yeah but what
1:07:00
i was actually going to say is the worst example because yeah they do that with
1:07:04
for especially on big studio projects yeah trev come in do a draft and by the
1:07:09
way they'll pay you you'll do very nicely out of it they'll pay you they'll
1:07:13
pay you for your draft and then they won't like where you went in act two by Trev,
1:07:19
Kieran, come in, do a draft, and they'll pay you.
1:07:22
You'll do very well. They'll give you a nice fee. You'll write a draft.
1:07:26
Two, three, four, five writers. Again, a movie. Can I mention it?
1:07:33
It was a big, this is at least 20 years ago. I'm missing the substance.
1:07:38
You can, you can give me the title.
1:07:39
Well, yeah, but you're not sworn to secrecy. Yeah.
1:07:43
Oh, okay. But anyway, it was, it was a big movie. It was a flop.
1:07:47
It was a big movie, but it was a live action adaptation of an older property. Okay.
1:07:54
Oh, the, okay. Oh, what year was that?
1:07:58
Don't get paid in trouble, Karen. you
1:08:02
know what i you know what this i think
1:08:05
this actually made the trades because it was
1:08:08
it broke the records at the time it was the flintstones yeah
1:08:12
which was not a good movie no offense to
1:08:15
the writers who labored hard on it but 17
1:08:20
writers now they didn't know
1:08:22
that piece of shit credit 17 so the
1:08:26
poor arbiters had to read 17 more than
1:08:29
one draft by 17 writers and
1:08:32
decide which of these poor long-suffering bastards ended up with enough in anyway
1:08:39
that that was exceptional but i was i was on the committee then not doing the
1:08:45
arbitrations myself but i looked at that and I thought, these poor bastards,
1:08:49
this is, this is just ridiculous.
1:08:52
17 writers. Damn. It's kind of like that, it's kind of like that famous joke,
1:08:58
where they talk about Beyonce's, that song, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh,
1:09:03
oh. It took like nine writers and ten producers.
1:09:06
Well, he made a rap city was written by one man. Yeah.
1:09:11
And that's the way it should be, I think, when it comes to screenwriting.
1:09:14
It is the way it should be. I mean, yeah, there's a whole...
1:09:18
Well that's a whole separate episode yeah exactly
1:09:21
i agree 100 because the weird thing about
1:09:24
i don't know which beyonce one it is but i know you
1:09:27
know there are certainly 12 writers credited several of their
1:09:29
songs and half of it is because of the
1:09:32
rise of sampling because it's not that it took
1:09:35
12 people to write it it's for royalties well
1:09:39
yeah it's like let's say if they're using a
1:09:42
sample from something that
1:09:45
would have involved two if they were using a sample of
1:09:48
a squeeze song for example which sounds unlikely for
1:09:52
a beyonce record but you never know but if they were going to use a sample from
1:09:56
a squeeze song you've already so you've already got chris diffard and glenn
1:09:59
tilbrook because they wrote that song so they would have to get a credit because
1:10:02
the sample is in there yeah and they bring in these days they bring in what
1:10:07
they call a track guy who will do a backing track but won't do a melody.
1:10:11
Then they'll bring in a top-line person, usually a female session singer. Yeah.
1:10:17
But then added to that, you've also got four other samples that are in there.
1:10:21
So if you've got a 10 second sample of a London McCartney song,
1:10:25
a 10 second sample of an Elton John and Bernie's open song, a 10 second sample of a Chris Difford.
1:10:30
And you've got six people already working on this song.
1:10:36
Yes. They're just the samples, you know, so, but they, you know,
1:10:40
a lot of people could be dead.
1:10:43
But their estates will receive royalties. yeah
1:10:47
of course of course of course so i mean
1:10:50
ridiculous as it is and i agree with you it's ridiculous i'd
1:10:54
rather see 12 names on it because what it means is that the poor bastard who
1:10:59
sung the sampling is oh they're getting the credit where credit's due yeah yeah
1:11:04
yeah because the credit fair enough fair enough so you know yeah i suppose in
1:11:09
an 80s world and in the end you know It's the artifact that matters.
1:11:13
I couldn't agree more intellectually and creatively with the notion that can't we keep it clean?
1:11:19
If Freddie Mercury, like you say, if Freddie Mercury can write Bohemian Rhapsody,
1:11:24
can't you just, can't one or two of you write, write us on board?
1:11:29
Or without taking somebody else's work, can you at least make it,
1:11:31
you know, do something on your own?
1:11:33
No, I don't like the new stuff, so I don't mind putting it down.
1:11:37
It's a different, it's a different mindset and it's, And those things become
1:11:43
tools of the creative process.
1:11:46
Like, I mean, because you do get these amazing things where,
1:11:50
oh God, who are the great?
1:11:52
Well, Dr. Dre, I guess, is the really great example where he'll listen to everything and.
1:11:59
Not just R&B music or rap music or whatever you would imagine his roots are.
1:12:06
You get Dr. Dre samples on Tupac records that are like, this is a Labby Sifra
1:12:12
drumbeat from a singer-songwriter folk album from 1975.
1:12:18
Elton John and Tupac, posthumously, after Tupac's death, that ghetto gospel.
1:12:25
And they're not two artists you would automatically put together.
1:12:28
You know Tupac and Elton John yeah yeah no
1:12:32
that's another good example because Dre and Tupac did
1:12:35
California you know which is that's right yes great
1:12:38
anthem but that propulsive piano I gather
1:12:42
I mean I don't know this for a fact I've read this I and there's
1:12:44
no reason it's not true I gather that propulsive piano
1:12:48
is a sample from a Joe Cocker and the Grease Band
1:12:51
record from 1972 yeah and
1:12:55
obviously it doesn't sound anything like Joe Cocker it's a great
1:12:57
record california and dr dray had the ear to hear that around whatever it was
1:13:04
and he oh just i'll have that and he put that in and then looped it so you get
1:13:08
this great pulse of that thing so yeah and like i'm saying in the end it's the
1:13:14
artifact that matters if you make something great.
1:13:18
Then the as long as you don't cheat or steal
1:13:21
or not credit people in a way it
1:13:24
does you like pop art in the 1960s you
1:13:28
know there was this explosion warhol doing soup
1:13:31
cans it's like well somebody designed that soup can you know so
1:13:35
warhol is stealing that design the other
1:13:38
big pop art painter roy lichtenstein just painted full-size reproduction of
1:13:44
comic book panels it's like well that's jack kirby's fucking work yeah not yours
1:13:48
so so in a way that sort of art eating itself thing yeah has always happened,
1:13:57
well as I say we've had that we've had that argument a lot with the podcast
1:14:00
where well this film seems very familiar well everything's been done you know
1:14:06
all you can do is kind of tweak it and make it your own a bit you know,
1:14:11
what I want to certainly agree with is you know with these yes it is jarring
1:14:16
when you see all these you know writer's credits on a film and you think it's
1:14:21
going to be a hodgepodge of all these things and sometimes it is sometimes it
1:14:24
isn't But I think for the sake of the writers,
1:14:27
it's great that they're getting their credit and paid their due as opposed to
1:14:32
them not being, you know.
1:14:34
And yet, of course, you know, I don't know what happened to the human brain
1:14:40
somewhere between being 68 and being 32.
1:14:45
But, yeah, I instinctively assume the traditional notion of the single signature
1:14:51
work, the painter who paints his picture, the musician who composes his tune.
1:14:56
But, you know, if you end up with something good, then you end up with something good.
1:15:00
And in terms of what you're saying Kieran, my favourite quote on this and I
1:15:05
know you but my favourite quote which sums all this up, when somebody pointed
1:15:09
out to Mick Jones of The Clash you remember The Clash fellas Oh absolutely,
1:15:15
still play them that one of their songs sounded like something else,
1:15:20
the poet philosopher Mick Jones replied, there's only 12 fucking notes in the
1:15:26
old bleeding universe, of course they sound like something else.
1:15:31
12 bleeding notes in the old fucking universe that's true,
1:15:36
listen pete i can't thank you enough for this man it has been just a wonderful journey here today,
1:15:43
to to talk about the artistic process and your background and the people you've
1:15:47
worked with it must be just a just must be a blessing just to be able to work
1:15:51
with such you know with people like yourself and the people you've worked around
1:15:55
with what's you got anything next Are you writing any, is there any more,
1:15:59
I know you're obviously doing source stories and stuff like that. Yeah.
1:16:02
For the moms and if he coming out or what's going on.
1:16:05
I am. I've, I've actually, you know, for the last 15 years I've been exclusively
1:16:11
in prose, you know, I haven't been a screenwriter at all.
1:16:14
About a year ago, I was hired onto
1:16:16
a TV project. They dragged me out of retirement to be on a TV project.
1:16:22
Because of various complications that have happened with that TV project,
1:16:26
I'm still on it now doing a rewrite of something else.
1:16:31
And because, again, this is the way the business works now. For the first time
1:16:35
in my life, I had to sign an NDA, a non-disclosure agreement.
1:16:40
So at the risk of sounding like a dick, I have been working on a television
1:16:46
project for the last year.
1:16:49
But I cannot tell you anything about it. you
1:16:52
know you're a real dick yeah i'm a real dick
1:16:55
yeah because because these fucking
1:16:58
ndas man i mean it's like not only
1:17:02
we'll take back all the money we'll murder your
1:17:05
immediate family you know we'll burn
1:17:08
your house down yes there might be some
1:17:11
repercussions but you're helping citizen frame him get more likes and i think
1:17:17
that's important i promise to send a memo when the streaming company in question
1:17:23
allow me to all right so it's either disney netflix sky amazon,
1:17:32
i'm just gonna stare into the distance yeah no i mean i'm genuinely not being
1:17:39
coy i i always use I understand 100%.
1:17:43
It's cool that you're going back into.
1:17:47
Screenwriting and so forth. I just see that you're out of it for a while for
1:17:53
screenwriting. They age you out.
1:17:56
It's a weird thing as if you're A-list, nobody ages Steven Spielberg out.
1:18:05
They don't say when Steven Spielberg turns 60, oh, you're done.
1:18:08
But if you're just a sort of b or c midlist
1:18:12
writer the phone stop ringing partly
1:18:15
because and this is just something for you wannabe screenwriters out there the
1:18:21
industry in terms of its suits not necessarily the creatives but it's a very
1:18:27
it's a young person's game and the truth is no 29 year old,
1:18:35
wants to get notes from fucking granddad. You know, it's like they don't,
1:18:39
uh, they're not comfortable bringing in somebody who says, Oh,
1:18:44
I think I dated your mother in 1978.
1:18:50
So, so the sort of natural process of, my God, get these smelly old men out of the office.
1:18:56
We want some, uh, some young people. And anyway, but thank you.
1:19:01
Thank you very much for the kind words, Kieran.
1:19:02
Thank you, Trev. And yeah, I do. I feel blessed. I've been lucky enough to,
1:19:07
I decided to run away with the circus when I was 80, when I met Clive and Doug,
1:19:12
in fact, in 50 years, 1974, I met Clive and Doug.
1:19:18
You haven't looked back. That's it for me.
1:19:22
I'm running off to join the circus. And yeah, I've been very lucky and very
1:19:27
blessed. I've worked with actors and writers and musicians and blah, blah, blah.
1:19:32
But yeah, it's been fun.
1:19:35
Well listen um again i can't say thank you enough for your time and and thank
1:19:41
you for all your contributes with fantastic war magazine i'm sure that goes
1:19:45
without saying with trevor,
1:19:46
absolutely yep thank you pete yep
1:19:49
especially the hell ranger special that just came out not too long ago
1:19:52
yeah but uh listen guys we want
1:19:55
to thank you for listening to this one this has been an experience and it's
1:19:57
been very fun give us a shout at citizen frame
1:20:00
underscore podcast and instagram if you want some feedback if
1:20:04
you guys want to try to find out what program he's working
1:20:07
on let's all get get about some kind of petition
1:20:09
we can try to find out what it is let's not
1:20:13
make it a conversation guys definitely not no we won't we won't we we get it
1:20:19
100 and give us a show on facebook listen again beat you the man good man thank
1:20:24
you so much it's been really enjoyable thank you thank you thank you and Trevor yeah whatever I.
1:20:30
Music.