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Ocean Book You Need to Read: Amanda Leland's Vision for a Sea Change · How To Protect The Ocean

• 0:00
  On today's episode, we're gonna be discussing this book, it's called
• 0:02
  Sea Change, unlikely Allies, and a Success Story of Oceanic Proportions.
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  It's all about catch fisheries.
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  If you wanna know more of what Catch fishery is and what it actually
• 0:12
  will do to help preserve fisheries, help protect the ocean, you're
• 0:16
  gonna wanna watch this episode.
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  So that's what we're gonna be talking about in today's episode of the
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  How to Protect the Ocean Podcast.
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  Let's start the show.
• 0:23
  Hey everybody.
• 0:23
  Welcome back to another exciting episode of the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast.
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  I'm your host, Andrew Lewin, and this is the podcast where you find out what's
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  happening with the ocean, how you can speak up for the ocean, and what you
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  can do to live for a better ocean.
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  By taking action today, we're gonna be talking about this book, sea Change.
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  It's great.
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  I'm gonna show it one more time here.
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  It was sent to me.
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  I get sent a lot of books, you know, and I get emails from a lot of people.
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  I'm very privileged to have that and to be able to get free books
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  and to be able to read them.
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  When I started to read this book, this is not what I expected.
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  I expected something on conservation, so it'd be more like, you know, this is
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  what we need to do to protect the ocean.
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  This is the frameworks and everything that we have to do.
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  This is not this book.
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  This book is a story.
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  This book is a story about a fisher named Buddy where we meet him at a
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  very young age where he's fishing with his father, and I don't wanna give
• 1:09
  any kind of spoilers, but he grows up.
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  And he becomes a fisher.
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  But he, there's a lot of stuff that goes on between that, which I highly recommend
• 1:16
  that you read this book to find out.
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  But you see his journey as not only becoming a man and an adult, but
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  becoming a fisher, and the evolution of becoming a fisher to eventually
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  becoming an advocate to protect the ocean and protect fisheries, and
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  becoming like a conservation hero.
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  This is something that is important to know, not only for me as a scientist and
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  as a conservationist, but also somebody.
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  If you're listening in this audience, and you may not be involved in this field.
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  I know I have a lot of people who are, but I have a lot of people
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  in this audience who aren't.
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  We always hear bad things about Fishers.
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  We always like, why are we hearing that?
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  This is a book that gives you the perspective of Fisher.
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  Sometimes you may not like what the person has to say, but other times you
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  might just be like, yeah, you know what?
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  This is actually pretty cool.
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  This is something I want to know about and I wanna know more fishers like this.
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  And there are a lot of fishers that are just like that.
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  And so it's really important that we get to meet them, we get to hear their story.
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  And this is one of those stories.
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  This is a true story and it's something that I feel is very important and
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  Amanda is on the podcast to discuss it.
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  She was one of the co-authors, James Workman was her other author, who's
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  the journalist and who wrote most of the book, but Amanda provided a lot of
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  the information and worked it with him.
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  She's the executive director of the Environmental Defense Fund, a huge
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  organization that does a lot of work.
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  And it was a pleasure to be able to speak to her and get her perspective on this.
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  Not only did we talk about the book, but for the most part we talked about
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  how she became an executive director.
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  'cause I was curious, but also talking about what Environmental defense does
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  and what type of programs they have.
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  But very much focusing on the Ocean Fisheries program
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  and how they partner with.
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  Unlikely heroes, you know, unlikely people that you don't see
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  being partnered with and having those discussions early on with.
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  And I think that's really important and we're starting to see that.
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  And then if you've been listening to the podcast anytime recently, there's
• 2:53
  been a focus on building trust, building relationships with local communities,
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  with fishers, with stakeholders, and bringing in conservation right at
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  the beginning so that everybody's perspective is being heard.
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  That's really important when we have that type of participation, when we talk about
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  conservation in a local area, or even in a larger region, or even a national, like
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  in a country or even internationally.
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  So it's very important to have these conversations and
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  to know their perspective.
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  So without further ado, here is the executive director of the Environmental
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  Defense Fund, Amanda Leland, discussing with us this book See Change.
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  Unlikely heroes and a success story of oceanic proportions.
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  This is something that everybody needs to read.
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  In my opinion.
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  It's on sale as of this recording, and you can pick it up very quickly.
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  I think you can even pre-order it if it's not on sale, if you're
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  catching this at a different time, but something to really listen to.
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  So here's Amanda, enjoy the interview and I'll talk to you after.
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  Hey Amanda, welcome to the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast.
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  Are you ready to talk about the book, sea Change and Catch Shares?
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  I am more than ready.
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  I'm excited to be here.
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  Thank you for having me, Andrew.
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  Oh, I am so excited.
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  Now I get emails quite a bit to, for people to come on the show and
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  it was so great to see someone from EDF, from Environmental Defense
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  Fund to say, Hey, you know what?
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  We have somebody for you.
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  Uh, she just co-wrote a book.
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  It's about sea change.
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  We'd love to send it to you so you could read it.
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  And I'm like, I'm in.
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  I do get a lot, you know, I do get some books to be, you know, to that
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  come to me and I, and I, I peruse them and stuff, but I have to admit,
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  Amanda, when I started reading this, I didn't know what to expect.
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  I started reading this and I'm like, this is really fun.
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  I'm into this, this is a bit like a novel in a way, but it's true.
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  Like this is like, this is like a, a true story.
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  And it was, it was, it was very cool.
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  I haven't finished the book, just full disclosure, I haven't finished
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  the book yet, but I am excited to talk not only about the book,
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  but the contents of the book.
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  I don't want to give away anything, but I, I want, and I don't want spl 'cause
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  I want people to read the book, but what I want to do is dive into catch shares
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  and why they're such an important tool and why you want to write about them.
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  You and James want to write about them.
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  James, James Workman.
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  And so, um, we're gonna get into all that, but before we do, I want the
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  audience to get to know who you are.
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  Um, so, uh, Amanda, why don't you just let us know who you are and what you do.
• 5:09
  Thank you.
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  Yeah, I'm, well again, it's exciting to be here.
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  Um, so my name is Amanda Leland and I'm executive director of
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  Environmental Defense Fund, which means that I run the organization.
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  Um, and EDF is a longstanding, um, international.
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  Environmental organization.
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  We have offices around the world, um, and we really think about and
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  work towards finding the ways that work for people in the planet.
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  So mm-hmm.
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  We, we, we have a lot of unlikely partnerships.
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  One of the things we're gonna talk about that comes through in the Sea Change
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  book, it's finding common ground and working towards solutions together,
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  even with people who you think you might have less, um, in common with.
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  And, and really, because fundamentally we actually generally share the
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  same needs and the same goals.
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  And we might not start there, but we can find those paths and see
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  changes about finding one of those paths for ensuring that we have
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  a healthy and productive ocean.
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  Awesome.
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  Now, being an executive director of an organization like Environmental
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  Defense Fund, that's a big deal.
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  Like that is like when I got, when somebody said like, Hey, you know, the
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  executive director of Environmental Defense Fund wants to come on the podcast?
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  I was like, whoa.
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  I told my wife, I was like, this is, this is big news.
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  Like this is, this is awesome.
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  Like it's always great to talk to people from your staff 'cause they're always,
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  they're always great and they're always so passionate and everything like that.
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  But an executive director, I'm like, this is a big deal.
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  When you started out in this line of work, like when you started your
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  education path and, and things like that, did you expect this is where you were
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  gonna end up as an executive director?
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  Is that, was that the plan you wanted to be in charge of, of an organization?
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  I've never really, this is the bad truth about me.
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  I've never really been a person who's tried for a
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  certain title or a certain job.
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  I'm driven a hundred percent by getting things done and making the world a better
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  place, uh, to the extent that I can.
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  Mm-hmm.
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  I, I have been a lifelong fan.
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  I actually became an EDF member when I was 13 and the seventh grade.
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  Wow.
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  Okay.
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  Yeah.
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  So I have a long, I have a long story with EDF that predates any jobs whatsoever.
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  Yeah.
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  Um, and I never really thought, you know, in high school, college that this
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  would be the kind of work I would do.
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  I was right.
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  Tracked into science.
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  I was, I was a marine scientist.
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  That's sort of the, the beginnings mm-hmm.
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  Of a career as working in, in, um, marine advocacy and conservation.
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  Um, but yeah, it's been a long journey and again, not really motivated by the title.
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  I'm happy to have it.
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  It's a real honor.
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  Of course.
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  Yeah.
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  Um, I, I'm, what I love about EDF, they're, you know, is we have
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  this incredible platform to get to solve the biggest problems facing
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  people in the planet, and mm-hmm.
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  We have an incredibly smart and talented staff.
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  We have really strong and, um, generous supporters who've been with
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  us on some really tough journeys.
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  And they, they stay with us and we have these incredible partnerships.
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  And again, working with fishermen, you know, when we started that work 15, 20
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  years ago, it was nobody, like, it was, it was not the way conservation was done.
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  Mm-hmm.
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  Uh, and there's stories like that in EDFS work over and over again of how
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  we find these unlikely partnerships.
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  Becoming allies and changing the world.
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  Yeah.
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  I, you know, I'm going back to you being 13, being part of, you know, joining EDF.
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  What does that look like as a 13-year-old joining an organization like that?
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  Like, what was, what was your role?
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  Was it like a volunteer role?
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  Was it just you got newsletters?
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  What, what does that look like?
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  Because, you know, there's a lot of people, my, my kids are teenagers.
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  They're 16 and turning 18, you know, and I tell them like, you know, how
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  do you feel like connected to the planet, connected to, um, you know, the
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  ocean or just connected to wildlife?
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  And, and you know, I've always thought like, there, there are
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  programs out there that were, you know, uh, kids can, can join.
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  But as a 13-year-old, what does that look like?
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  And, and, and why EDF when you joined?
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  So, um, I am, I'm really big into evidence and progress and experience.
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  Um, and in the seventh grade we do, I did a science fair project.
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  Mm-hmm.
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  I became very, um, excited about the potential to, for recycling.
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  Now, this was a long time ago.
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  I might be older than you think.
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  This was a long time ago.
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  This is when, like in the US the nightly news was like the garbage,
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  uh, ships that nobody could figure out where they would go.
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  And, and there was this plucky EDF scientist, um, who was always on
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  the news talking about the fact that we needed to do more recycling to
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  deal with all this trash and, um.
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  And I just thought he was the best.
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  Like he was so inspiring to me.
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  It was a great idea at the time.
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  Right?
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  He was.
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  So, I, I mean, that tells you what kind of person I am.
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  I got really excited about one of our, our, our nerdy scientists who
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  was standing on a big pile of trash.
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  Um, and that's what got me, that's what got me going.
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  So I actually did my research of all the organizations who
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  were focused on recycling.
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  'cause I got so into it.
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  EDF was doing the most by far at the time.
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  And I sent my $30 in to become a member.
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  Yeah.
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  And I got, um, all the cool swag or the, now it's the merch.
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  Um, yes.
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  And, and I just, I wore it around with pride and I showed off to everybody
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  that I was like a member of this incredibly impactful organization.
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  And, and that stuck with me for years.
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  You know, it, I, um, it sort of waxed and waned a little depending
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  on what my interests were.
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  But yeah, it was with me the whole time.
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  And it turns out that that really plucky scientist had an office
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  two doors down from mine when I started at EDF 21 years ago.
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  And he retired a couple years ago.
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  And I was able to be at his retirement party.
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  Yeah.
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  Did did you tell him like he, he's the reason why you Oh yes.
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  He knows.
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  Yeah, he definitely knows.
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  Um, that's awesome.
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  Now, like, as a 13-year-old, you know, um, there are a lot of 13 year olds who
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  are not necessarily focused on this.
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  Like, were your friends involved as well?
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  Like, were you able to rope in your friends or they're just kind
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  of looking at you like, oh, there goes Amanda in her recycling?
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  Uh, yeah, definitely no friends.
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  I think, um, I don't know.
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  I was maybe a little out of step with
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  what was going on around me.
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  I, I don't know.
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  Um, but it was, it was, um, it over time, you know, I definitely attracted people
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  into thinking about and, um, becoming part of the environmental movement.
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  So while I wasn't so good at that in the seventh grade, right, it de it
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  definitely became part of who I am and, and how people think about me.
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  And who I asso associate myself with.
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  Mm-hmm.
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  Not just other environmentalists, but people who fundamentally care
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  about, um, ensuring that their kids have more opportunities and a
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  cleaner, healthier planet to live on.
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  Okay.
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  Than, than we do today.
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  That kind of like legacy and generational aspect is really important to me.
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  And it was the generational aspect, um, that got me really
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  excited about the oceans.
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  It was my grandfather who taught me how to fish and to
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  captain a boat when I was seven.
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  Wow.
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  Um, like my passion for the oceans started really early.
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  I was out there fishing blue fish with him Yeah.
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  When nobody else was fishing blue fish, um, right at the time.
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  So anyway, I guess those early beginnings are important and that has shaped my
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  life and my career and I think it.
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  I think it matters to other people too.
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  Gotcha, gotcha.
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  Now, working at EDF, I assume it's one of the, like the places
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  you've worked the longest, um Yes.
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  Outta your career, um, as you started to work there and, and you, did you
• 13:35
  just start to sort of climb the, the, the nonprofit ladder and, and, and what
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  interested you in, in growing in that way?
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  Because, you know, you, you were a marine scientist and Yeah.
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  You said that there's a lot of great marine, like a lot of great scientists
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  in general that work at EDF and, um, you can do a lot of great things in different
• 13:52
  positions there, but as you get, you know, a lot of scientists don't, like, as they
• 13:57
  grow into an organization or a government department, you get more administrative,
• 14:00
  administrative roles and you get a away from doing the actual science.
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  Um, and each role is important to when you do it, but some people don't like that.
• 14:10
  What, what attracted you to continue to grow within, within the
• 14:15
  organization into a position like this?
• 14:19
  So that story for me starts actually before I joined EDF 'cause I didn't come
• 14:23
  in as a marine scientist, so my ah, okay.
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  My shift from science into conservation happened before that I was actually in
• 14:32
  grad school, um, and I was working as a scientist in the Gulf of Maine mm-hmm.
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  Uh, with sea urchin fishermen.
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  And I was confronted in a fishery that was largely collapsed or collapsing mm-hmm.
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  In the coast of Maine.
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  And the fishermen would say to me, if I don't take the last
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  urchin, someone else will.
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  And it's a common thing we hear.
• 14:56
  Right, right.
• 14:57
  And I, you know, I was in my early twenties and I was like, just the.
• 15:05
  The ridiculousness and the pain in that kind of a statement.
• 15:09
  Mm-hmm.
• 15:10
  Like, nobody should have to eat their seed corn in order to feed their family today.
• 15:14
  Right.
• 15:15
  That is a, there's just, there's no way that that's gonna work.
• 15:19
  And so in the, at the time and, and that period fisheries were
• 15:23
  collapsing all around the country.
• 15:26
  And I was sort of in this mind frame of, I don't wanna be the scientist that
• 15:31
  writes the epitaph for these productive fisheries and the health of the oceans.
• 15:36
  I wanna be on the side of solutions.
• 15:38
  So that brought me to take a fellowship in Washington, DC where
• 15:42
  I worked for a member of Congress and I learned more about policy.
• 15:46
  Mm-hmm.
• 15:46
  And from there I came to EDF as sort of a marine advocate, ocean advocate with an
• 15:53
  understanding of both science and policy.
• 15:55
  Gotcha.
• 15:55
  So that's how I came into EDF.
• 15:58
  And then over time, I've had nine different jobs here.
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  That's unreal.
• 16:02
  So, yeah, so I've, I like, I guess the, the ocean analogy
• 16:08
  here is hook, line, and sinker.
• 16:09
  I don't know, like, I kind of feel like I've done, I've done
• 16:12
  all the things, um, one can do at EDF, um, and in different ways.
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  And still every day my job is different.
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  Even 21 years on as executive director ev every day it's different.
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  It, it, it provides a, a cool challenge, you know?
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  'cause you never know what to expect, just like the ocean.
• 16:32
  You never know what to, what it's gonna spit at you or what it's gonna, what's
• 16:35
  gonna reveal for you at that time.
• 16:37
  Um, that's a, that's a really interesting, you, you mentioned at the beginning,
• 16:40
  uh, you mentioned at the beginning of this, of this episode that, you
• 16:43
  know, you've, you've been motivated by like trying to accomplish things.
• 16:47
  How has that.
• 16:49
  Evolved over your career?
• 16:51
  Like you mentioned, you went from science to advocacy and like policy.
• 16:55
  Now, you know, you're, you're more into a, a leadership role, you know, driving
• 17:00
  a lot of great scientists and advocates.
• 17:03
  How has that evolved over, over your, your career so far?
• 17:09
  I am, well, I guess I'm, you know, in the, in the category of not trying, I've
• 17:14
  never really set out to have a certain job title or to do a certain thing.
• 17:19
  I am, um, I care a lot about getting things done.
• 17:22
  I care a lot about making the most of what we have.
• 17:26
  Um, and, and I'm also a person who learns by doing.
• 17:31
  And so I think that that has enabled me to take on more and do different
• 17:37
  parts of this kind of a job in different ways over time without, um.
• 17:43
  Without having the, always the formal training, you know, like, um, I didn't go,
• 17:48
  I went to school to be a marine scientist.
• 17:50
  I did not go to school to be a nonprofit executive.
• 17:54
  Um, and somehow I seem to be doing that.
• 17:58
  So I people, I just actually talked to a young person yesterday
• 18:03
  who's in her final year of college looking for advice, you know, career
• 18:08
  advice, and I said, try everything.
• 18:12
  Like you never know what's gonna stick and feel right to you.
• 18:16
  So when you're presented with an opportunity, even if it
• 18:19
  feels like it's not the logical progression, go ahead and try it.
• 18:23
  'cause it may end up being really helpful to you in the end.
• 18:26
  And I think that that's largely how I've progressed and how
• 18:30
  I've gotten to where I am.
• 18:31
  And again, I never thought.
• 18:34
  As a 13-year-old, $30 a year member of EDF that I'd become executive director.
• 18:40
  Never thought that.
• 18:41
  Yeah.
• 18:41
  I often wonder too, like going from those types of positions to an executive
• 18:45
  director, like how did you gain the skills and, and what skills do you think
• 18:49
  really prepared you for a role like this?
• 18:57
  Um, I think, uh, what you need in a role like this is an ability
• 19:04
  to communicate, uh, in a way that people can understand you.
• 19:10
  So I think communication is often overlooked and potentially one of
• 19:14
  the most important keys to success.
• 19:17
  I think being able to distill complexity down into simplicity is part of that.
• 19:24
  Um, and I think.
• 19:27
  Reali recognizing that humans are humans and we're all in
• 19:32
  the sha shared same place.
• 19:35
  And we are often motivated by similar things and working to find common
• 19:41
  cause, um, and not try to create more distinctions and more polarity.
• 19:46
  I think actually finding ways to work together is incredibly important, um, and
• 19:56
  being true to yourself and to the facts and making, in my view, sort of like the,
• 20:04
  a lot of people ask about risk taking.
• 20:07
  You know, what is my risk tolerance in this kind of a job?
• 20:10
  And I have a pretty high tolerance for risk.
• 20:14
  If I also am focused on what the information that's available is telling me
• 20:19
  about the situation or the need for where EDF can be the most effective and where
• 20:25
  there's a need for our kind of engagement.
• 20:27
  So, so being able to think sort of in the, at the, at the broad scale and
• 20:31
  then bringing it down to how can we add value and what is our, what is
• 20:36
  our special offering to the world?
• 20:38
  Because there's a lot of really great impressive conservation and
• 20:41
  environmental groups out there.
• 20:43
  Yeah.
• 20:43
  EDF, yeah.
• 20:44
  EDF is one of many.
• 20:46
  Right.
• 20:47
  And so recognizing what we're good at and where we can make a difference is
• 20:53
  important and, um, and really our legacy and our offering to the, to the world.
• 21:00
  Wonderful.
• 21:01
  Speaking of EDF, now we've, you know, we've, I've probably gone in a little too
• 21:05
  much into your, your, uh, career, but I was curious though, and it's my show, so
• 21:10
  I like to talk about this kind of stuff.
• 21:11
  You get to call the shots.
• 21:13
  Yeah, I get to call the shots.
• 21:14
  Um, but I, I, I think what, what's interesting is EDF is, is such a great
• 21:18
  organization, but for those who are not familiar with the type of work that
• 21:21
  you do, can you kind of like, summarize and even, you know, maybe ex like, uh,
• 21:26
  name off a couple of examples of some of the programs that you have working
• 21:29
  and some of the work that you've done?
• 21:32
  Yeah, so EDF is an organization that sort of takes the big swings at the
• 21:37
  toughest environmental problems.
• 21:39
  We bring a pretty, um, broad toolkit to solving those problems.
• 21:45
  So we have, um, legal capacity, we have scientific capacity, economic capacity.
• 21:52
  We work really closely with business and communities.
• 21:56
  So kind of like up and down the, the whole chain.
• 21:58
  All the way to the top, the top, you know, businesses in the world to,
• 22:03
  um, very discreet communities where there's solutions to be advanced
• 22:07
  and you, and, and demonstrated that serve as a beacon for others.
• 22:12
  We do focus on models that are replicable.
• 22:16
  Um, we like to engage where we think we can drive impact at scale.
• 22:20
  So that means like demonstrating a solution can work.
• 22:23
  And then trying to bring it to the whole sector.
• 22:25
  And that's important.
• 22:27
  So some of those, and that goes back to that sort of that premise
• 22:30
  that I said at the front of like, finding the ways that work.
• 22:33
  We are not, we are not dogmatic in the solution.
• 22:36
  We are looking for what's gonna work and make the biggest difference
• 22:39
  in a way, and a way that's gonna work for people in their wallets.
• 22:43
  Like the, the fundamental affordability proposition of environmental solutions
• 22:48
  is in, is important in this context.
• 22:51
  Um, so some of the big areas where we focus, where you might see us, you
• 22:56
  know, a little bit more prominently in the public space, um, in particular,
• 23:01
  is around reducing methane emissions.
• 23:04
  Mm-hmm.
• 23:04
  So methane, a lot of people might not know.
• 23:07
  Methane is a, uh, is a really, um, it's a, it's a greenhouse gas, so it's a climate
• 23:14
  pollutant that is driving much of the warming we're experiencing right now.
• 23:20
  It has a relatively short life in the atmosphere, but it's very, very powerful.
• 23:27
  Mm-hmm.
• 23:27
  And so reducing those emissions is really the best way to pull
• 23:31
  the emergency brake on the climate change that we're experiencing today.
• 23:36
  And a much of those emissions come from the oil and gas sector.
• 23:40
  And so we work to reduce point source emissions.
• 23:44
  So like leaking infrastructure could be a pipeline, it could be,
• 23:48
  um, a gas line, it could be an, uh, an oil and gas development field.
• 23:54
  Um, the reducing those emissions right now is what can help us right
• 24:00
  now in addressing climate change.
• 24:02
  So we have for many years, been working to solve that problem,
• 24:07
  um, with making some progress.
• 24:10
  Um, yeah.
• 24:11
  For sure, for some, uh, some progress.
• 24:13
  Another area where we're very focused, um, is protecting, um, tropical forests.
• 24:20
  So the second area we, the world can make immediate gains on climate change
• 24:25
  right now is, um, ensuring the protection of tropical forests in reducing forest
• 24:32
  burning, either through trying to clear land to do something else or for
• 24:38
  gold mining, which is an increasingly big part of the equation or wildfire.
• 24:44
  So if you're, I, we are in, we are up in Canada and we are in trouble.
• 24:50
  Yes.
• 24:50
  Yeah, you are like Canada.
• 24:52
  The, the, the fire seasons in Canada are just off the charts.
• 24:56
  I was just the charts in Maine for the last two weeks and.
• 25:00
  There was no clear air there.
• 25:01
  Yeah.
• 25:01
  Um, and that is unheard of for Maine, which typically has, is outside of
• 25:07
  those, you know, that windy pattern.
• 25:10
  Yeah.
• 25:10
  Um, and people over all over.
• 25:12
  Well, just, just to add to like the, the severity of it.
• 25:15
  I live, uh, just outside of Toronto, where typically we get the smoke,
• 25:19
  but we don't get the, the, the fire.
• 25:22
  Um, but we're under fire bans, you know, even in our backyards.
• 25:25
  Yeah.
• 25:26
  They've just announced it this week because it's so, we
• 25:28
  haven't, we've barely had rain.
• 25:29
  I think the first rainfall we had was last night.
• 25:32
  I don't even know how long it was.
• 25:33
  I was asleep, but it wasn't long enough.
• 25:35
  I'll tell you.
• 25:35
  You know, like we just haven't had any rain.
• 25:37
  So it's a very, it's a very scary situation.
• 25:39
  So definitely understand where that, that problem is coming from
• 25:42
  and how hard it is to tackle it is, it is, um, emerging as mm-hmm.
• 25:49
  Like the biggest, um, one of the biggest challenges to solve at
• 25:53
  this point because it, it affects.
• 25:57
  All of us.
• 25:58
  It affects nature.
• 25:59
  Um, it upends lives in a minute, and it is also driving vast emissions that
• 26:08
  nobody really has been thinking about yet.
• 26:11
  Right.
• 26:11
  Like the potential for wildfire to swamp some of the gains we're making
• 26:16
  on addressing climate change is high.
• 26:20
  So anyway, so forest protection and, and forest management mm-hmm.
• 26:24
  Are critically important and an area where EDF is also focused.
• 26:29
  And then of course there's our work on fisheries and oceans,
• 26:33
  which I led for many years.
• 26:35
  And now, um, work with others who are handle, who are ably leading
• 26:41
  that work at EDF with our partners.
• 26:44
  That's amazing.
• 26:44
  I mean, it's, it's, it, those are big programs, big issues to tackle.
• 26:49
  Um, you know, and, and you need some very intelligent, some very motivated and
• 26:53
  passionate people to be able to do that.
• 26:55
  And definitely there's no shortage of that.
• 26:57
  Uh, at, at EDF, um, let's focus in, obviously there's a lot we
• 27:01
  can focus in on, but let's focus in obviously on the, on the
• 27:03
  fisheries and oceans side of, of it.
• 27:06
  Um, you know, fisheries is a huge problem around the world.
• 27:10
  Overfishing is a huge problem.
• 27:11
  There's a lot of, of different areas even within that.
• 27:15
  That we can, that we can go into.
• 27:17
  Um, but you know, a lot, a lot of the times we really focus in on the amount
• 27:21
  that's being taken outta the ocean, which is obviously is, is overfishing.
• 27:25
  Uh, but we look at it from a conservation perspective.
• 27:27
  How do we protect the stock?
• 27:28
  How do we protect the species?
• 27:30
  How do we make sure that it's gonna be around so that people can fish
• 27:33
  for years and years and years?
• 27:34
  But really when we talk about fisheries and, and I talk to a lot of people
• 27:38
  who are not necessarily, um, familiar with, you know, the ocean issues and,
• 27:42
  and, and fisheries in particular.
• 27:44
  They just want to conserve, they want to protect.
• 27:47
  And so when, in, in this type of scenario, often vilified are
• 27:53
  the fishing communities, right?
• 27:54
  And, and the, and the fishermen and fisher women who are out there, and
• 27:57
  the fishing people who are out there.
• 27:59
  You know, day in and day out in dangerous areas, uh, in dangerous conditions,
• 28:05
  um, you know, trying to catch stuff.
• 28:07
  And many of them are, are trying to just catch, to feed their families to
• 28:12
  make sure their communities are fine.
• 28:13
  And when a, a stock collapse, you know, and I use on my podcast a lot with the
• 28:18
  cod fishery collapse here in Canada and in the northeast, in the northwest
• 28:22
  Atlantic, uh, back in the 1990s, which still hasn't technically recovered.
• 28:26
  It was devastating for those communities that were dependent on those cod stocks.
• 28:30
  Um, trying to prevent the overfishing, trying to ensure that fisheries are
• 28:36
  conserved, but also trying to protect the, um, the, the, the wellbeing
• 28:41
  and, and the sustainability of fishing communities to be able to
• 28:45
  fish forever, um, is a complex issue.
• 28:49
  And, and you know, you mentioned earlier that you know, you,
• 28:51
  you often partner with.
• 28:54
  Fishers and fishing communities and so forth, like the quote
• 28:57
  unquote unlikely allies, you know, in, in this type of game.
• 29:01
  Um, let's just talk about like, why do you, why do you think they're vilified
• 29:06
  and why does Environmental Defense Fund, you know, use this approach to get,
• 29:12
  be, to get the results that they do?
• 29:18
  Well, I mean, I think it's hard to say why they're vilified.
• 29:21
  I think, I think fundamentally that happens when regulations are
• 29:30
  established that, um, that basically put fishermen into a box and they
• 29:38
  have very few choices for themselves.
• 29:41
  And, and by that I mean a regulation that says.
• 29:45
  Um, the fishery can only catch so much this year, which means that, that every
• 29:50
  fisherman is racing and to go out to catch as much as they can, as fast as
• 29:55
  they can, because when that limit is reached, they shut the fishery down.
• 29:59
  And that's how fisheries in the US and Canada were managed for decades,
• 30:04
  um, and other parts of the world too.
• 30:06
  Right.
• 30:07
  It's this like, it's, it creates this race and then the fishermen are in order
• 30:12
  to be able to do their job and bring home money for their family and feed their
• 30:18
  families, they're basically pushed to this ultra competitive mindset mm-hmm.
• 30:24
  Where it's like, I just have to get as much as I can, as fast as I can.
• 30:29
  And, and then you have organizations in my sphere, the environmental organizations
• 30:35
  saying like, but the, but it's sticking to the science is the most important thing.
• 30:39
  I don't think.
• 30:40
  And so I think it just creates this false dynamic that you have to be
• 30:44
  fighting between these two things when fundamentally the fishermen and the
• 30:48
  fishing communities don't wanna be in the situation that I talked about with
• 30:52
  those urchin fishermen of if I don't take the last one somebody else will.
• 30:56
  Like, nobody actually wants to be there.
• 30:59
  Right.
• 31:00
  And there are other ways to do this so you don't, so that they're not there.
• 31:04
  And so our, my focus and our focus has been on trying to find those
• 31:09
  other ways rather than trying to put the blame on the fishermen.
• 31:12
  Mm-hmm.
• 31:13
  And I think the other thing about this is, um, you know, around the world
• 31:19
  there are, there are 3 billion people, and I, we, I think we forget this.
• 31:24
  Yeah.
• 31:25
  In the, in the, in North America, we forget this point a lot.
• 31:29
  Yeah.
• 31:29
  There are 3 billion people who rely on seafood as their primary source
• 31:33
  of protein, and they're typically the most vulnerable people on the planet.
• 31:38
  They don't have a lot of other options.
• 31:41
  There's not like an easy pasture for them to put a cow out
• 31:44
  into to have an alternative.
• 31:46
  Um, and, and this is where they get their nutrition.
• 31:51
  And so the idea that people are just gonna not fish also undermines the,
• 31:56
  in my view, the reality of like, people need to eat then kids need
• 32:01
  nutrition for their brains to grow.
• 32:04
  And, and that's gonna happen whether you tell them it's
• 32:08
  protected or it's not protected.
• 32:11
  And so the path forward for I think is about management that rewards
• 32:16
  conservation for fishermen where they financially and community
• 32:20
  wise benefit by, uh, conservation.
• 32:24
  And then you get a better marriage between areas that are fished and
• 32:28
  areas that aren't fished because the fishermen are, fishermen are more likely
• 32:32
  to defend those areas that aren't fish.
• 32:36
  If they know that they're gonna be able to catch a certain amount or whatever mm-hmm.
• 32:40
  Have that direct access and that feedback loop over time.
• 32:43
  That may have been a long-winded answer to your question.
• 32:46
  It was a complex question, so I I it needed a long-winded answer.
• 32:50
  I loved it.
• 32:50
  Uh, I, I completely agree with you.
• 32:52
  Uh, and it's, it's something that, uh, I hear, you know, all the time,
• 32:57
  you know, I've, I've been on Buzz and marine scientists myself, I've been on
• 33:00
  boats with, you know, local fishermen who are just, you know, they know
• 33:04
  the lay of the water and the land.
• 33:06
  They, they've been there for, you know, they have generational knowledge
• 33:10
  on how this fishery has behaved and, and the trends of the, more
• 33:14
  than scientists a lot of the times.
• 33:16
  And so it's imperative that we continue to work together, not only as scientists,
• 33:20
  but as advocates, as conservationists, and as a team, you know, to be able to,
• 33:24
  like, how do we get through this together?
• 33:26
  And I, I completely agree that I feel like.
• 33:28
  People in North America often forget.
• 33:30
  You hear a lot of people like, well, we just have to stop eating, eating seafood.
• 33:33
  And it's just that, just can't, that won't, like in reality, that won't
• 33:37
  happen in, in a lot of places because they, like you mentioned, there's 3
• 33:41
  billion people that depend on seafood as their main protein source, and
• 33:44
  there it's a nutritious source and, um, and it goes to a lot for child
• 33:48
  development and, and everything like that.
• 33:49
  And, um, that's an important aspect to, to how we, how we move forward.
• 33:54
  And so working with them and not vilifying them, I think is a, is a much better way.
• 33:59
  It's not always easy because some of these issues are complex and, and they
• 34:02
  do want to be able to feed themselves as well as feed their community and,
• 34:06
  and, and be able to, um, be able to, to, uh, uh, uh, just live right and be
• 34:13
  able to be happy as, as a, as a family.
• 34:16
  Um, now.
• 34:18
  There are parts of, as we get more into this, this catch share and the
• 34:22
  book, um, you know, there are parts to phishing that are, are very different.
• 34:29
  I, I think a lot of times it all, everything gets lumped up into phishing.
• 34:33
  And so, uh, you know, in a lot of, uh, documentaries such as like Ocean by
• 34:39
  David Attenborough that just came out, they talk a lot about the industrial
• 34:43
  fishing, you know, where it's like fishing for the maximum processing at
• 34:47
  sea, you know, for, for a length of time.
• 34:50
  Uh, just trying to get as much as possible, but often forgotten are the
• 34:55
  artisanal and local fishers, you know, the indigenous fishers, the, the local
• 35:00
  Canadian and American and European fishers who are just trying to catch a
• 35:04
  certain amount of fish so that they can sell it and feed their families, maybe
• 35:08
  keep some for themselves and move on.
• 35:11
  There's that divide how, like for from a. Perspective for EDF, how do you approach
• 35:19
  those two types of phishing and, and I'm, am I missing something in between, uh, of
• 35:25
  those two sort of categories of phishing?
• 35:28
  Um, like is there, is there certain thing, like is is EDF focused on the, the local
• 35:32
  fisher or are they focused also on some of the larger, more industrial type of
• 35:38
  fishing, or is a little bit of both?
• 35:42
  I'd say it's an all of the above.
• 35:44
  Um, yeah, I think for sure the, um, what the character, there are some, I think, I
• 35:53
  think there's some misunderstandings about some aspects of industrialized fishing.
• 36:01
  So if you, if you look into the Alaska slash British Columbia Fisheries, um.
• 36:08
  In the US and Canada, you'll see pretty industrialized, actually
• 36:12
  quite industrialized fisheries.
• 36:14
  Yeah.
• 36:14
  Um, some of them have very deep connections into native communities.
• 36:19
  Mm-hmm.
• 36:20
  Um, so this, I like it.
• 36:23
  It is very much tied to, to local community and local culture.
• 36:28
  Um, and they fish cleaner and Hmm.
• 36:33
  With maximum, uh, fish recovery.
• 36:37
  So they use every part of the fish.
• 36:41
  Gotcha.
• 36:41
  And they don't throw anything over.
• 36:43
  So they're basically utilizing everything.
• 36:45
  And so if you look at the, the Pollock fishery, which is the, the
• 36:49
  biggest fishery in the United States.
• 36:51
  Yep.
• 36:51
  Um, it's, it's one of the best managed fisheries in the world.
• 36:58
  Wow.
• 36:58
  And that isn't what people think about when they think of industrialized fishing.
• 37:03
  And it is what provides.
• 37:06
  A lot of the fast food restaurants with fresh fish.
• 37:11
  Mm-hmm.
• 37:11
  And I will happily go to McDonald's and get a filet of fish sandwich.
• 37:15
  Yeah.
• 37:15
  Because it's, it's well managed.
• 37:16
  'cause I know, I know where that, those fish are coming from.
• 37:19
  And I know that that's a, a well-managed fishery.
• 37:22
  So that doesn't mean every industrialized fishery in the world
• 37:26
  or every boat in the world, you know, is operating at the same level.
• 37:30
  And in fact, probably that's not the case.
• 37:32
  'cause it sets a very high standard.
• 37:34
  Um, but it, it isn't quite the distinction of industrialized versus artisanal.
• 37:40
  And then this, then on the other side, you've got, or, or in the
• 37:43
  middle is probably the boats in the Gulf of Mexico, which are
• 37:48
  commercial fishermen working on boats.
• 37:51
  But they go out overnight, a week at a time.
• 37:54
  Um, they're not big, you know, uh, big, big and boats like you
• 38:00
  would see in Pollock where they're, um, they're processing on board.
• 38:05
  They're commercial fishermen, um, doing their job.
• 38:09
  And then there, then there's, if you could go even smaller to in, uh, Belize,
• 38:15
  coastal Belize where they're out in a, you know, a, a small little, even some
• 38:21
  would say skiff, some of them have only in the last couple decades moved from
• 38:26
  a sale to a little outboard engine.
• 38:28
  Um, often these fishermen have more in common with each
• 38:33
  other than you would expect.
• 38:34
  'cause they are, they view them, I, I don't wanna characterize them for them,
• 38:39
  but what I've taken away from getting to know fishermen in different types or
• 38:44
  segments of the sector is that, um, they care a lot about ensuring the long-term
• 38:50
  longevity of their, um, industry.
• 38:55
  And they, and, and they.
• 38:59
  They have this, um, really important, you said sort of generational
• 39:03
  knowledge, which I think is right.
• 39:04
  Like their, their ability to see into an ocean that is otherwise
• 39:10
  invisible to everybody else is amazing.
• 39:14
  Uh, yeah.
• 39:14
  They see things and they feel things and they can interpret things in ways that
• 39:19
  even a scientists struggle with sometimes.
• 39:21
  So, um, it is true that there are different types of fisheries
• 39:25
  and they certainly have different needs and, and qualities, but I
• 39:29
  think there's more in common than a lot of people often talk about.
• 39:36
  Well, that's good to know.
• 39:37
  You get something, you know, you learn something every day.
• 39:39
  'cause I don't get to, to interact with a lot of these different
• 39:42
  styles of, of fishermen and, and the way they use things.
• 39:44
  So obviously as technology increases, you know, it's supposed to be
• 39:48
  more efficient and sometimes even better, uh, for, for the fishery.
• 39:52
  So it's good, it's good to know that and it's, it's good to have that
• 39:55
  differentiation or even understand some of the similarities and
• 39:58
  differences, uh, throughout that.
• 40:00
  Now working with, with Fishers, uh, and understanding a lot of the different ways
• 40:05
  that, you know, once they catch fish, what happens to that fish afterwards?
• 40:10
  You know, oftentimes I remember reading, I forget where I read this,
• 40:13
  but I remember reading where, you know, fishermen in North Carolina would, would.
• 40:17
  Catch their seafood, whether it be shrimp or whether it
• 40:18
  be fish of, of certain types.
• 40:21
  And they would, you know, once they unloaded off the dock, it would go into
• 40:24
  a truck and it would go off to somewhere in Northeastern, uh, US and it would go
• 40:29
  maybe to New York, fishmonger or Sea, uh, uh, a restaurant or something like that.
• 40:33
  But they wouldn't know.
• 40:34
  They, if you asked the fishers where it would go, they didn't
• 40:36
  necessarily know where it went.
• 40:38
  Uh, and, and in that area in North Carolina, they actually started to add,
• 40:42
  um, you know, like a, basically like a, a catch share kind of thing where people
• 40:47
  can put money in and they would have an idea of like what they could get.
• 40:52
  And they would, they would get some, some, some of the fish, so they would
• 40:55
  know that the seafood would stay local and the fishers would know
• 40:57
  who's eating the seafood and you would know who caught your seafood.
• 41:00
  And it was really a nice, uh, community thing.
• 41:02
  And, and it, it was profitable for both sides.
• 41:05
  Um, you know, you get the, the community got affordable fish and
• 41:08
  seafood and then the fishers were able to, uh, get money for that seafood
• 41:12
  and see where their seafood goes.
• 41:15
  It's, it's a really interesting idea, bringing it back to the local
• 41:18
  and, and less like, let's ship it off, not know where everything
• 41:21
  goes, but still make our money.
• 41:22
  But a lot of people in the middle make the money, the middle people, as they
• 41:27
  say, make, uh, the money and then it kinda grows and grows and gets more
• 41:30
  expensive and gets more expensive.
• 41:32
  Why are Cat shares such, uh, an interesting solution and a, and a growing
• 41:39
  solution in a lot of communities, not only in the US but all over the world?
• 41:44
  Uh, why is that becoming more, it's almost like going back to
• 41:47
  the local, you know what I mean?
• 41:48
  It's like when, in our, in to, to make it an analogy, it's like, in our
• 41:51
  lives we rush everywhere and a lot of times when people say, if you want
• 41:55
  to be more conservation focused, it's better to kind of slow your life down.
• 42:00
  You know, Dr. Wallace, j Nichols used to talk about the slow coast and,
• 42:03
  you know, slowing your life down and enjoying nature a little bit more.
• 42:07
  I feel like this is kind of like the same thing.
• 42:09
  Is it bringing it back local and hope that, you know.
• 42:12
  And, and you get the benefits of that.
• 42:14
  So why is this such a, um, uh, an important tool in, in
• 42:19
  conservation for fisheries?
• 42:22
  I think I, I, I like your point.
• 42:24
  I think often we talk, we talk about how, um, the people closest
• 42:29
  to, to the problem are often the best to come up with the solution.
• 42:33
  Um, like we, what am I I, I'm sitting here in this room.
• 42:36
  What do I know, right?
• 42:37
  Like, yeah, it's actually the people who are, who are living and experiencing the
• 42:42
  problem that are gonna be the most likely to have a durable strategy for fix this.
• 42:48
  Um, and I think what, so what shares?
• 42:52
  I, I think catch shares is part, like one way for that to happen.
• 42:56
  So if you think about, um, it enabling fishermen to have some, um,
• 43:03
  agency basically over their, their.
• 43:07
  Future.
• 43:08
  This is fundamentally what it is because you're, by providing them
• 43:12
  certainty that they can catch so much in a year, which is mm-hmm.
• 43:16
  What the share is, it's like this certainty of how much they can catch,
• 43:20
  they can figure out how to catch it and maximize their profits on the other end
• 43:26
  so they could time their catch to when the market conditions are gonna be better.
• 43:31
  They may get more price per pound at a certain time right.
• 43:34
  Then, then they, if they were all out at the same time and coming back to
• 43:37
  the dock with the same at the same time, which creates a market glut
• 43:41
  and then they get low, low prices.
• 43:43
  And so to your point, like slowing it down actually gives the fishermen
• 43:48
  more agency decision making agency about their own job and their own
• 43:54
  economic, you know, potential.
• 43:57
  They can also do value added, um, enhancements.
• 44:00
  So you can think about, do you wanna, um.
• 44:05
  Do you wanna change the type of fishing gear you're using to be able to market
• 44:08
  to a more higher end crowd, right?
• 44:12
  Like you can actually, you can do that by, by having certainty, you can fundamentally
• 44:18
  shift your practice of fishing, which typically is gonna mean less waste, better
• 44:24
  quality product, higher price per pound, and more ability then to negotiate with
• 44:31
  whomever is buying your fish from you.
• 44:33
  And you.
• 44:33
  You see then forward contracting starting, you can, you can plan out not just this
• 44:38
  fishing year, but future fishing years because you know that, that as long as
• 44:42
  you don't violate the rules or go over your limit, you know that next year
• 44:47
  you're still gonna have that percentage share and you can fish more next year.
• 44:52
  And that driver actually at, at a fleet level, when you think about
• 44:56
  all the boats in one fishery that have, have some version of shares.
• 45:01
  Everybody then is incentivized to actually under fish the limit that year.
• 45:05
  Mm-hmm.
• 45:06
  Because they can fish more next year.
• 45:08
  Right.
• 45:09
  Because it's a percentage share.
• 45:10
  So that's how you see the fishery rebuild so quickly.
• 45:15
  Yeah.
• 45:16
  And the fishermen earning a higher profit almost immediately.
• 45:20
  So it really is this like win-win solution now.
• 45:25
  It's not perfect.
• 45:26
  Right.
• 45:26
  Of course.
• 45:26
  It doesn't solve every problem in the world.
• 45:29
  Yeah.
• 45:29
  Um, or even in the, in the fishery.
• 45:31
  But it, it definitely, it, it definitely creates that path by which fishermen do
• 45:35
  better and the fish populations rebound.
• 45:37
  And that's why I think it's spreading around the world because people are
• 45:41
  seeing that it, it creates, um, a virtuous, virtuous cycle rather than a
• 45:48
  perverse one that draws everything down.
• 45:52
  Wonderful.
• 45:52
  I love that ex that explanation.
• 45:54
  Um, here's a question for you.
• 45:57
  When, you know, when we talk, you know, there's a lot of different
• 46:00
  tools in the conservation tool belt, especially around fisheries.
• 46:03
  Marine protected areas is one of them.
• 46:04
  And a lot of times when marine protected areas are suggested, there's a lull
• 46:08
  in the ability to catch, right?
• 46:10
  Like they, you know, there may, there might be in that area you can't catch
• 46:13
  for a certain amount of time or you may not be, be able to catch for a while
• 46:17
  until the fishery starts to recuperate.
• 46:19
  'cause it could be in that state, you know, where it needs to be.
• 46:22
  When you implement a catch share, you know, you're taking a percentage of,
• 46:26
  you know, everybody gets a percentage.
• 46:28
  But like you said, a lot of times under the percentage or maybe even
• 46:30
  under what the quota it was initially, because you know you can fish more.
• 46:34
  Is there, um, a delay in fishing?
• 46:38
  So when a catch share is put in, do fishers have to wait a bit and then
• 46:43
  they're able to fish, like, wait a season or, or what have you until, um, that
• 46:48
  fish population recoup a little bit more?
• 46:50
  Or can they still fish?
• 46:51
  Just they can, they may not be able to fish as much that year compared
• 46:55
  to the next and the next beyond.
• 47:00
  I don't know of a case.
• 47:01
  There may be some that exist.
• 47:03
  I don't know of a case in which a fishery was entirely closed from day one of a new
• 47:09
  cat share program being put into place.
• 47:11
  Okay.
• 47:11
  And that's a fundamentally a science question of like, well, how much phishing
• 47:14
  is, is per, should be permittable based on, you know, how much fish are out there.
• 47:20
  So that's really a science question.
• 47:22
  Um, what we do, what we have seen.
• 47:25
  So in an extreme case that EDF was very much part of.
• 47:29
  So I can speak to this.
• 47:31
  Um.
• 47:32
  The West Coast of the United States, the Groundfish fishery, which is the
• 47:36
  same complex of species that are in the British Columbia Groundfish fishery,
• 47:41
  um, was in a state of collapse.
• 47:42
  It was declared a federal disaster.
• 47:45
  And these are, it's like a, it's a complex of dozens of different
• 47:49
  species, often very difficult to even determine what their differences.
• 47:54
  Like it's very hard to speciate them.
• 47:57
  Even when you get them on board, they all look the same and they're super long live.
• 48:02
  So you've got a long, very long live species, which, which should mean it
• 48:07
  takes a long time to recover, right?
• 48:09
  Like the recovery trajectory would be very long 'cause it, 'cause it takes a
• 48:13
  long time for them to get to maturity where they're gonna produce more fish.
• 48:17
  Um, and when the, the West Coast Groundfish fishery cat share was
• 48:22
  implemented, there were some of these stocks, some species that were so
• 48:28
  overfished that they basically had.
• 48:31
  A a a zero catch limit.
• 48:33
  Some version, it wasn't quite zero, but it was just, it was just shy of zero.
• 48:39
  Right.
• 48:39
  And these are fish that if they all school together, so if you catch one, you're
• 48:43
  gonna catch a whole boatload of them.
• 48:46
  And if you catch a boatload of them, the entire fleet gets shut down
• 48:50
  because you've, you've exceeded the limit and the person who caught it is
• 48:54
  probably gonna be out of their quota.
• 48:56
  Right.
• 48:57
  So what the fishermen did was they worked together to create
• 49:00
  what was called a risk pool.
• 49:01
  So they pooled their quota of these super overfished species with the
• 49:06
  recognition that if one person gets hit, everybody's gonna suffer.
• 49:10
  So we want, we wanna be able to spread that around.
• 49:13
  And at the same time, then, well, around the same time, they worked collectively
• 49:18
  to figure out where those super depleted species were most likely to be.
• 49:23
  And they created these marine protected areas that they all stayed out of.
• 49:28
  Mm-hmm.
• 49:29
  So in doing so, they never actually hit one of those,
• 49:33
  what was called a disaster tow.
• 49:35
  And these super long live super rare fish rebounded very quickly.
• 49:41
  Hmm.
• 49:41
  Because it was in their, it was the incentives were set up so
• 49:44
  that they would protect them.
• 49:47
  Unreal.
• 49:48
  This is such a cool thing and it's such a cool, yeah.
• 49:50
  You know, like it's such a cool tool to use and it brings it
• 49:54
  back, like I said, locally.
• 49:55
  And, and I just love that.
• 49:57
  But it's also a tool that not a lot of people who are not necessarily involved
• 50:02
  in fisheries or like, just like sort of the, the average person, you know,
• 50:06
  who's running around and eating seafood like they want, and, um, you know,
• 50:10
  trying to just survive life as, as, as we live and, and, and stuff, uh, but
• 50:14
  are not super involved in fisheries.
• 50:15
  They don't really know about cat shares.
• 50:18
  Uh, and so there's ways to communicate it.
• 50:20
  And, and, and one way that I love, uh, to make it really entertaining
• 50:24
  is the way you did it with, uh, your, your, uh, co-writer James Workman.
• 50:28
  Uh, was this book here, uh, sea Change.
• 50:30
  I'm gonna put it up here on the video so if, if people are watching, uh,
• 50:33
  on, on YouTube to take a look at it.
• 50:35
  And I really love the approach.
• 50:38
  That you took, that you both took on this, uh, it's called Sea Change,
• 50:42
  unlikely Allies, and a success story of oceanic proportions, which I love.
• 50:46
  Um, but it was all about catch shares, but it was, there was a story behind
• 50:50
  it, and it followed this fisher buddy and he, his entire life from
• 50:55
  childhood all the way to, you know, Mr.
• 50:57
  Fish who's trying to fish.
• 50:59
  And, and even in the book, I don't want to give too much away, but even in the book,
• 51:03
  he says, you know, the, the, the, the words say like, you know, if, if, if, if
• 51:07
  somebody's gonna catch the last one, if I don't, you know, someone's gonna be there.
• 51:10
  I see that in the book.
• 51:11
  And, uh, he's just sort of like what we would typify as a fisher without
• 51:16
  stereotyping, but following a real story and understanding how the evolution, uh,
• 51:23
  came to be and, and, and joining in on this, on this catch share, why the book.
• 51:28
  And, and, and, and is this like a project for from Environmental Defense Fund?
• 51:34
  Is this something that's personal and like, why did you
• 51:36
  decide to go the book route?
• 51:40
  It's a lot of questions all at once, so I apologize.
• 51:43
  Um, well, the book, so I, I think that, um, in a world of one minute increments
• 51:50
  of news, we sometimes forget about what has actually happened in the world.
• 51:57
  It's true.
• 51:58
  So true.
• 51:58
  So like, a little bit, this is like, um, this is like taking a, it's like taking a
• 52:02
  minute and, and thinking, you know what, and recalling something really incredibly
• 52:09
  powerful that happened that made almost no news right at the, like, which was the re
• 52:14
  and the book is about the recovery of US fisheries, but then it spreads out to how
• 52:20
  this fisherman buddy doesn't become just.
• 52:23
  Chief a, a chief advocate of sustainable fisheries in the us He
• 52:27
  then travels around the world and, and brings his story to others as well.
• 52:32
  And so I think it's really, um, I think the intentionality around the
• 52:37
  book was capturing the breadth of the story, the humanness of the story of
• 52:43
  Buddy, um, as the protagonist and the cast of like, of many other fishermen
• 52:51
  who are involved in that story along the way in some, in some way.
• 52:55
  And, um, and celebrating it.
• 52:58
  A little bit of my, like, my purpose here is like, let's celebrate something
• 53:03
  really great that has happened.
• 53:05
  Yeah.
• 53:05
  And we spend too much time talking about collapse and degradation
• 53:10
  and the future's gonna be worse.
• 53:13
  And I. It isn't always the case.
• 53:16
  Yeah.
• 53:16
  And I think we don't do enough to talk about progress and environmentalists
• 53:21
  are like typified to be the, like the shooting for perfection.
• 53:25
  Mm-hmm.
• 53:25
  We're always shooting for perfection and that drives people nuts.
• 53:29
  Mm-hmm.
• 53:29
  And I get it.
• 53:30
  And actually this is about something that's really good and really durable.
• 53:37
  Yeah.
• 53:37
  And that's, to me, like that's what we should be aiming for.
• 53:41
  So a little bit trying to set up that environmental progress can happen.
• 53:47
  Yeah.
• 53:48
  Um, and, and there's something to celebrate around that.
• 53:52
  And what I love a, about this story is it spans almost like before, you know Yeah.
• 54:00
  Fisheries policies came into play.
• 54:04
  Two, you know, we're at where we're at, you know, over the last like 20 years
• 54:08
  in terms of, you know, advocacy and, and, and understanding fisheries better.
• 54:13
  But the story of how the Magnus and Stevenson Act came in.
• 54:17
  I did not know that story before.
• 54:19
  I knew of the policy and I knew how effective it was.
• 54:22
  I didn't, I'm not gonna say how it came in 'cause I want people to read it, but
• 54:26
  I actually like, stood up from my seat.
• 54:28
  I was at a cottage in front of water, of course, that's where
• 54:30
  you wanna read your book on water.
• 54:32
  And I was like, you gotta be kidding.
• 54:34
  Me and my friends who were around me were like, what are you doing?
• 54:36
  I'm like, I did not know this.
• 54:38
  And I told them the story and it was phenomenal.
• 54:41
  I did not realize that that's how this, you know, fishing policy that has pretty
• 54:47
  much brought back a lot of fishy, a lot of fisheries around the US was implemented.
• 54:51
  So I'm not gonna say why and, and how, but read the book.
• 54:55
  Uh, and it because it's important.
• 54:57
  It, I think it's, it really gives you a history of how things have come through.
• 55:01
  It's not always perfect.
• 55:02
  It's not always necessarily for one reason or another, but there's always a reason
• 55:07
  why things come in, especially when you look at how it was done, who did it.
• 55:13
  Um.
• 55:14
  And in a situation where we're in now, where it seems like a lot of
• 55:18
  people are against the environment, uh, from a policy perspective, how
• 55:22
  things can maybe come into play that would benefit the environment
• 55:26
  and real world situations as well.
• 55:29
  It, it, that's what it made me think about, but again, I don't want to go into
• 55:32
  too much detail because I don't want to give it away, but all this stuff, like,
• 55:36
  it's a rich history followed through the lens of, of someone who's gone through
• 55:41
  problems, you know, with the family and then life and then, you know, it, it's
• 55:46
  just he kind of goes all over the place and then, but he, he has like a goal
• 55:50
  and you're, you're invested in Buddy throughout this whole time and, and I
• 55:54
  just thought it was, is really great.
• 55:56
  Um, now were, have you always wanted, is this your first book
• 56:00
  or have you written books before?
• 56:03
  I have not written books.
• 56:04
  I have to give Jamie a lot of the credit here.
• 56:07
  So my co-author, who is an award-winning author, right?
• 56:11
  Um, I am, I am your typical nonprofit executive where if you can't say
• 56:16
  it to me in one page, like I'm not gonna, like, I can't, there's only
• 56:20
  so much I can absorb at once, right?
• 56:22
  So I am, I am not, I I will say, admit that I'm the not the
• 56:27
  long form narrative driver here.
• 56:29
  Right.
• 56:29
  Jamie Very much is, and I'm very unreal, grateful for him.
• 56:34
  Um, the story was very much a partnership, so I don't want people
• 56:38
  to think that, like he, you know, he wrote it and my name's on it.
• 56:41
  It's very much a partnership.
• 56:43
  Yeah.
• 56:43
  Um, but he did really, I mean, he brought in a lot of those sort of
• 56:47
  pre-history elements, which I think really make the story much more robust.
• 56:52
  And there's a depth there that, you know, going all the way back to the first,
• 56:56
  you know, the, the, the finding of the.
• 56:59
  First fishing hook and the, in the colonial history of the United States.
• 57:03
  Like, he was able to pull, I don't know if you've read those bits yet,
• 57:07
  but he was able to pull things into the story that, um, remarkably like create
• 57:14
  this, this movement in this story.
• 57:16
  Yeah.
• 57:16
  That, um, that give buddy in his, in his life much more richness.
• 57:22
  I often, I don't know if you've ever read Mark Kurlansky, but I've, you know, I
• 57:26
  read cod, so he had cod salt, I think he had a baseball book where he tells this
• 57:31
  history of the world around one item and one of of 'em was about catfish in the
• 57:36
  United States and the, like, the Colonial America and all, and the Basks coming
• 57:41
  over, you know, even long before that.
• 57:43
  Anyway, I, he tells the story based on this one thing, and I feel like
• 57:47
  what we've done in this book is we've sort of cur Lansky esque it.
• 57:53
  Such that it's really about buddy's life, but it's about how the world
• 57:57
  is changing based on somebody who's demonstrated real leadership.
• 58:01
  Yeah.
• 58:01
  And is an unlikely, um, hero.
• 58:05
  Like you don't expect him to be a hero.
• 58:07
  Not at all.
• 58:08
  Not at all.
• 58:09
  You don't expect it.
• 58:10
  But you're also not surprised because just the way his life has gone.
• 58:13
  You know what I mean?
• 58:14
  Yeah.
• 58:14
  You're like, yeah, that makes sense.
• 58:15
  Um, but it kind of goes to the evolution of, of Fishers, you know, throughout
• 58:20
  their lifetime and what they learn.
• 58:21
  And just like we have as scientists and, and advocates and, and executives
• 58:26
  and nonprofits go through the same kind of thing, there's definitely
• 58:29
  an education through life and life histories and, and um, you know,
• 58:33
  things that happened, whether it's on a international level or whether it's
• 58:36
  on a level where, um, you know, we just don't, we just don't understand.
• 58:40
  So I think it's, I think it's wonderful.
• 58:42
  I, I really think it's great.
• 58:44
  I, I would love to get, um.
• 58:47
  Your perspective on catch shares?
• 58:48
  Like what is the future of CATCH shares?
• 58:52
  Yeah, it's a, it's a really good question.
• 58:53
  I think it's a story that will cont in some ways, sort
• 58:56
  of continue to write itself.
• 58:58
  Meaning that there's a lot of evidence to suggest that this kind of
• 59:02
  management strategy works really well.
• 59:05
  Um, and it works in a diversity of types of fisheries.
• 59:07
  You can do the kinds that we talked about that are operating
• 59:10
  here in the United States Okay.
• 59:12
  That are percentage based, but there are others in Belize, for example,
• 59:16
  or in tropical coral reef ecosystems where they do it based on an area.
• 59:21
  Um, so it's much more area based, but still there's.
• 59:25
  Certain fishermen who have access to certain areas and they defend
• 59:29
  them, they're called turfs.
• 59:30
  It's an adaptation of a, of a catch share program.
• 59:34
  And fundamentally, it's a, it's a, it's a market-based and a rights-based strategy.
• 59:39
  So it, it invests people and it provides for that economic opportunity for them.
• 59:44
  Um, and I think that around the world, we'll continue to see, uh,
• 59:49
  fisheries make the conversion.
• 59:52
  It takes time because you really need the fishermen and the communities to
• 59:55
  be part of the design process in order to get it right for it to solve for the
• 1:00:00
  things that they need it to solve for.
• 1:00:02
  Different fisheries have different needs.
• 1:00:04
  Um, what is.
• 1:00:06
  New in the equation since the US federal fisheries went through its big
• 1:00:12
  conversion, which is the story of what sea change lays out is, is climate change.
• 1:00:18
  So with climate change and warming waters we're, we are now seeing a
• 1:00:24
  change in the distribution of fish away from the tropics because they're
• 1:00:29
  warming That's fine towards the poles, that's worries and Gotcha.
• 1:00:32
  And so fish are now crossing political boundaries mm-hmm.
• 1:00:37
  That we have put on a map that they don't understand, um, in search of
• 1:00:42
  colder waters because there are not fish.
• 1:00:45
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:00:45
  You know, fish have, they have a pretty, oh, sorry if you
• 1:00:49
  heard that computer noise.
• 1:00:50
  Um, they, they have a pretty, um, tight thermal tolerance.
• 1:00:55
  All sp marine species do the water.
• 1:00:58
  Oceans have been pretty stable for a long time.
• 1:01:01
  And so they're looking for cooler things now.
• 1:01:06
  Um, and that's why we're gonna see, even in some areas where you
• 1:01:10
  change the fisheries management, certain species may never come back.
• 1:01:14
  And that's the reality that we have to start thinking about.
• 1:01:17
  Like, I don't think we'll ever see.
• 1:01:20
  The Gulf of Maine be a place where there's a lot of codfish in the future.
• 1:01:25
  Not because, oh, I lost the management system.
• 1:01:27
  Lost you again.
• 1:01:27
  Is not working for cod.
• 1:01:29
  Lost.
• 1:01:29
  Lost.
• 1:01:29
  It's because Lost again, but that's okay.
• 1:01:30
  Their cod pool.
• 1:01:31
  What?
• 1:01:31
  I'm gonna lemme finish it off here so they're moving north because
• 1:01:34
  I think we got a good answer.
• 1:01:35
  Know towards, uh, Amanda, this has been wonderful.
• 1:01:38
  I I really do appreciate that, uh, you coming on and spending your time.
• 1:01:42
  I know you're busy and I, I do appreciate all the work that you do and all the
• 1:01:45
  work that you've put into this book.
• 1:01:47
  And Jamie as well.
• 1:01:48
  Um, this book will be on sale when we post this recording, so I'll put
• 1:01:51
  the links into the, uh, into the show notes so people can get access.
• 1:01:56
  So it's, she cha, see change, unlikely Allies, and a success
• 1:02:00
  story of oceanographic Proportions.
• 1:02:02
  I highly recommend that you read this book.
• 1:02:04
  I am loving it so far and I can't wait to finish it.
• 1:02:07
  Uh, and this is a, a story that I'm sure we'll hear a lot more of.
• 1:02:10
  As we progress.
• 1:02:11
  So thank you so much, Amanda.
• 1:02:12
  I really appreciate it.
• 1:02:13
  Thank you, Amanda, for joining us on today's episode of the How
• 1:02:15
  to Protect the Ocean Podcast.
• 1:02:16
  It was so fun to be able to talk with you.
• 1:02:19
  It's very rare where I speak to executive directors and especially
• 1:02:21
  one who was a marine scientist before.
• 1:02:23
  There's a couple that I've done.
• 1:02:24
  It's been wonderful.
• 1:02:25
  It's just great to be able to hear their perspective and hear this story and
• 1:02:29
  why it's so important, why Catch shares are becoming a bigger and bigger tool
• 1:02:33
  for conservation, for fisheries, and also benefit both the Fisher as well
• 1:02:38
  as their local communities and maybe even a larger portion of that as well.
• 1:02:41
  If you wanna buy the book, I'm gonna put the link down below, but if
• 1:02:45
  you have any questions or comments, please let me know 'cause I'd be
• 1:02:47
  more than happy to answer those for you, or I'll pass 'em off to Amanda.
• 1:02:50
  She can help direct you to the answers that you have to know, so
• 1:02:53
  just put 'em in the comments below.
• 1:02:54
  If you're listening to this on YouTube, or of course you can DM me.
• 1:02:58
  At How to Protect the Ocean on Instagram, just at how to protect the ocean.
• 1:03:02
  And if you really want to get to know more about the podcast, you
• 1:03:05
  can go speak up for blue.com.
• 1:03:07
  There's a contact page if you wanna contact me, it goes
• 1:03:08
  through my personal email.
• 1:03:09
  Feel free to do that.
• 1:03:10
  And that's it for today's episode.
• 1:03:12
  I really pleased to be able to bring you this episode.
• 1:03:15
  I really am happy that you continue to support the podcast on YouTube, on
• 1:03:20
  Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, wherever you listen to your podcast.
• 1:03:24
  It is been a continued pleasure.
• 1:03:26
  I'm not going anywhere.
• 1:03:27
  I just like to acknowledge that and be grateful.
• 1:03:29
  I am grateful for the fact that you continue to listen to this podcast.
• 1:03:32
  It makes me feel really good that you want to know more about the ocean.
• 1:03:35
  So thank you so much for joining us on today's episode of the How
• 1:03:38
  to Protect the Ocean Podcast.
• 1:03:39
  I'm your host, Andrew Lewin from the True nor strong and free.
• 1:03:42
  Have a great day.
• 1:03:43
  We'll talk to you next time in Happy Conservation.