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The Martyrdom Of Alex Pretti · Politix

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: She's very close with Elon Musk,
• 0:01
  rumored even to have been a paramour of Elon Musk when she
• 0:07
  worked for him.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_01: Is he the real father of Stephen Miller's children?
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_01: I have no information.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's a podcast, so you can libel people without consequence.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_02: She is currently pregnant, and you can go check the timing for yourself.
• 0:22
  Hey everyone,
• 0:23
  you're listening to a free preview of the Politics Podcast.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_02: This week we'll discuss the federal execution of Alex Peretti,
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_02: the Minnesota VA nurse killed by CBP agents over the weekend,
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_02: and the ensuing Trump administration retreat from Minneapolis.
• 0:37
  We'll also talk about Trump's early retreat from threats to
• 0:40
  seize Greenland,
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_02: and we'll try to find a through line.
• 0:44
  What can we learn from these losing episodes that might help
• 0:47
  all of us do a better
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_02: job of beating Donald Trump?
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_02: If you want to listen to the whole conversation,
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  SPEAKER_02: you can upgrade your subscription to paid at politics dot FM.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_02: Hey, everyone, welcome to the politics podcast.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_02: I'm Brian Boyler.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Matthew Glacius.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_02: OK, quick, quick wrap up.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_02: Since we last recorded, Donald Trump taco'd.
• 1:12
  He backed down and stopped threatening to seize Greenland from
• 1:15
  Denmark by force or otherwise.
• 1:17
  I think the administration has basically stopped talking about
• 1:20
  Greenland,
• 1:20
  just like they
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 1:21
  he achieved a historic basing agreement that was the same as
• 1:25
  the already existing
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: agreements.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: Art of the deal, art of the deal, art of the deal.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: And then, and then, yeah.
• 1:29
  And then we got treated to a million tweets from MAGA accounts
• 1:34
  that were like,
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: see,
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: this was the plan all along.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: That's Trump's superpower.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_02: Well, just having a bunch of idiots on his side.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: Is that when he engages in an embarrassing climb down,
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: nobody is like,
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: I cannot believe Mr.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: Trump betrayed his devastating promise.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's very annoying.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_02: Hold your thought and I'll just do the quick rundown.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_02: Seal tacos.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_02: All right, so Greenland, back on the shelf.
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  So he then redoubled his focus on the federal occupation of
• 2:10
  Minneapolis until
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  Saturday when a group of mass CBP agents went feral and
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  attacked a man named Alex
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  Peretti before one or more of these agents shot him to death
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  while he was in a kind
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  SPEAKER_02: of prone position.
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  SPEAKER_02: So, like, shot him in the back or...
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  SPEAKER_02: The backside of his body.
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  And this seems to have proven to be a really significant
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  turning point in U.S.
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  SPEAKER_02: politics.
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  Because over the course of just a few days,
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  Trump began a domestic retreat.
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  He held conciliatory phone calls with both Governor Tim Walz
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  and the mayor of
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  SPEAKER_02: Minneapolis,
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  SPEAKER_02: Jacob Fry.
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  He yanked the CBP's chief midget,
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  Greg Bovino,
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  from command over the operation there.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_02: There are reports that he might fire Kristi Noem,
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  SPEAKER_02: the Homeland Security Secretary,
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  SPEAKER_02: and her boyfriend slash receptionist,
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  SPEAKER_02: Corey Lewandowski.
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  And basically,
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  it seems like he's shifting control over DHS-related
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  operations,
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  whether they're
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  you know,
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  pretextual or not to the lesser fanatics in the administration.
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  SPEAKER_02: So that'd be Tom Holman and the person nominally in charge of ICE.
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  SPEAKER_02: And because as a silver lining,
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  this all happened before Congress had completed the
• 3:34
  appropriations process.
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  It seems like we'll have a real legislative fight now over
• 3:38
  Trump's DHS and its tactics.
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  SPEAKER_02: And there's likely to be at least a partial government shutdown
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  SPEAKER_02: because the Homeland Security bill is linked in the Senate to the Defense
• 3:51
  Appropriations Bill and the Health and Human Services
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  Appropriations Bill.
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  SPEAKER_02: So that's where we are as we record.
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  I think we should start with Minnesota and work backwards,
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  but I'll leave that to you.
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  SPEAKER_02: And also, you wanted to finish the thought you had about...
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  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: Just that,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
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  SPEAKER_01: I spent all day Monday,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: arguing with MAGA guys who were like,
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  SPEAKER_01: no,
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  SPEAKER_01: no,
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  SPEAKER_01: they were still in like righteous kill mode.
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  SPEAKER_01: As of Monday,
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  SPEAKER_01: when I think to those who know,
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  it was clear all day Monday that like Trump was in the process
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  of tacoing out of
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  SPEAKER_01: this.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I kept telling people, like, you don't need to argue with me.
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  SPEAKER_01: Like,
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  SPEAKER_01: 24 hours from now,
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  SPEAKER_01: you're going to be talking about how Mr.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: Trump resolved this brilliantly.
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  SPEAKER_01: And then,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: by the end of the day,
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: because I wrote this piece,
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  SPEAKER_01: I published this piece Monday morning that went into some of this,
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  SPEAKER_01: right?
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  SPEAKER_01: There's been this long-running...
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  SPEAKER_01: dispute between Kristi Noem,
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  SPEAKER_01: Corey Lewandowski,
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  SPEAKER_01: and Greg Bovino on the one hand,
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  SPEAKER_01: and Tom Holman and the,
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  SPEAKER_01: I think his name is Lyons,
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  SPEAKER_01: the statutory head of ICE.
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  SPEAKER_01: And even Bovino,
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  SPEAKER_01: I hadn't quite realized,
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  SPEAKER_01: is not like even actually the head of the Border Patrol.
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  SPEAKER_01: Greg Bovino's job is that he's the sector chief for El Centro.
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  And so he sort of came right out of the gate when Trump became
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  president with some
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  SPEAKER_01: high profile enforcement actions in California.
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  SPEAKER_01: And Trump, you know, liked the cut of his jib.
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  SPEAKER_01: So he put him in charge of an operation in Los Angeles, which is...
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: if you've been to El Centro or to Los Angeles,
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  SPEAKER_01: those are not like really the same place.
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  But in like technical border patrol terms,
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  Los Angeles is like within the ambit there.
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  SPEAKER_01: And then Trump really liked Bovino's work in LA.
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  SPEAKER_01: So he put him in charge of Operation Midway Blitz in Chicago,
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  which is obviously nowhere near the El Centro sector of the
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  US-Mexico border.
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  SPEAKER_01: And that was a...
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  SPEAKER_01: an irregular precedent established in Chicago, right?
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  That like a border patrol guy was running an interior
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  enforcement operation inside
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  SPEAKER_01: a major American city,
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  SPEAKER_01: a non-border city.
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  And then Bovino was put in charge of this operation in
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  Minneapolis where the scale
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  of the deployment is just enormous compared to the size of the
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  city of Minneapolis,
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  SPEAKER_01: right?
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: Trump is now I don't know exactly what it is he's backing down from,
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  but he is backing down from the theory that Greg Bovino is
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  highly theatrical,
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  highly antagonistic operation in Minneapolis was a good idea
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  that the agency
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  SPEAKER_01: culture of ICE is.
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  Which I think it's a little bit misleading because progressives
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  like to talk shit
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  SPEAKER_01: about ICE because saying abolish the border patrol sounds stupid.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so and so nobody likes to use that slogan.
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  SPEAKER_01: But like the actual agency culture of ICE is that it's a fairly,
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  SPEAKER_01: I guess,
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  SPEAKER_01: to be mean about it,
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  SPEAKER_01: like chicken shit agency.
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  Like one of the points that activists would always raise in the
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  second Obama
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  administration is that ICE was like very reluctant to engage in
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  potentially
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  SPEAKER_01: dangerous enforcement operations against serious violent criminals.
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  SPEAKER_01: Like,
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  SPEAKER_01: their preferred mode of action is that somebody's already in jail,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: because they were speeding,
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  SPEAKER_01: and then you just pick them up.
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  SPEAKER_01: Because, like, that's really easy.
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  SPEAKER_01: The Border Patrol is like a...
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  SPEAKER_01: you know, is like a cowboy culture, right?
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  SPEAKER_01: Like they're roaming around and they're doing,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: area denial,
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  SPEAKER_01: right,
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  SPEAKER_01: to people trying to cross the border.
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  SPEAKER_01: And these are guys who they roam around,
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  SPEAKER_01: small teams,
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  SPEAKER_01: they've got guns,
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  SPEAKER_01: they've got all different kinds of vehicles.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's like a much more of like a big swing dick operation.
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  SPEAKER_01: And they've had over the years,
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  there've been a couple of like big increases in the size of the
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  Border Patrol,
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  SPEAKER_01: particularly at the end of the Bush administration at the beginning.
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  SPEAKER_01: the Obama administration,
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  SPEAKER_01: and they had like big scandals,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: like cartels were sending guys in,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: to go work at Border Patrol,
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  SPEAKER_01: so on and so forth.
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  SPEAKER_01: So,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  a lot of this stuff reflects the application of Border Patrol
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  tactics to like large
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  SPEAKER_01: American cities,
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  SPEAKER_01: complete with genuinely having Bovino be in charge of it,
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  SPEAKER_01: As you were saying, like, this intersects with the funding fight.
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  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I think it intersects in an interesting way, right?
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  The House took a vote last week before Preddie was killed,
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  you know,
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  which passed narrowly.
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  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, it was contentious and it was heading to the Senate and—
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_01: you know, everyone was waiting to see what Senate Democrats would do.
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  Then Freddie was killed,
• 8:59
  which,
• 9:00
  like,
• 9:00
  clearly tipped it into Democrats are going to filibuster.
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  SPEAKER_01: And all the people who'd surrendered on the last shutdown were like,
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  SPEAKER_01: no,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: we're demanding more.
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  SPEAKER_01: And if Trump...
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  SPEAKER_01: had stuck with,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: because the original reaction of Stephen Miller,
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  SPEAKER_01: Kristi Noem,
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  SPEAKER_01: et cetera,
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_01: was to like go on television and lie about what happened,
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like quite blatantly and say like,
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: this guy was an assassin,
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: these people were defending themselves,
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  SPEAKER_01: et cetera.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: If Trump had continued with that course of action,
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  Democrats would have filibustered all of these appropriations
• 9:35
  bills and I think
• 9:36
  would have felt very comfortable holding out essentially
• 9:40
  indefinitely on that.
• 9:42
  Because the clips were terrible for Trump,
• 9:44
  you know,
• 9:45
  the actual news information.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: By backing down...
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  on the deployment in Minnesota and like not going out there and
• 9:55
  lying as aggressively.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: Trump is,
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_01: I think,
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_01: hoping to reboot this appropriations fight on,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: just like the terrain he's comfortable with,
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  that like we need to fund our heroic law enforcement agents who
• 10:09
  are out there.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: And Democrats are stuck with
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  Like this list of reform demands and like they can probably get
• 10:19
  some of them,
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_01: but nothing that they're going to get will be satisfactory.
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  SPEAKER_01: To who?
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  SPEAKER_02: To themselves.
• 10:28
  Oh,
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  well,
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  I mean,
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  I don't know what,
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  look,
• 10:29
  like,
• 10:30
  I don't know what they can get.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_02: I have, you know, I have the list of the things that they are demanding.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_02: And like,
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_02: if I were them,
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_02: I would be a little bit less particular and a little bit more generic,
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_02: And like, in some ways, all of this
• 10:45
  Discourse is like like shows a reasonable use case for not
• 10:52
  being super precise.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_02: Because like, yes, ice is not CBP.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_02: The chance is abolish ice.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_02: But really what the people saying it mean is.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_02: with a caveat,
• 11:03
  is abolish this method of supposed immigration enforcement that
• 11:10
  actually looks much
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_02: more like harassing and brutalizing people the president doesn't like.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_02: The caveat is that ICE got a ton of funding in the...
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_02: One big, beautiful bill act.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_02: And so it is becoming a different thing.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_02: Like your description of it is sort of like the weaker,
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_02: pussier version of CBP may not be true at the rate things are changing.
• 11:36
  But like what my general demand would be,
• 11:40
  because obviously like you're not going to get
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_02: ICE abolished or completely defunded while Republicans run Washington,
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_02: but you can probably get some reforms.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_02: And what you want to be demanding,
• 11:50
  like the cornerstone of your demand is no more Minneapolis's
• 11:53
  anywhere in the
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_02: country.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_02: Like that is not how we're not going to pay for any, any of that.
• 11:58
  And so we need whatever reforms will satisfy us that you're not
• 12:02
  going to do that.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and like what, but like, what would that be?
• 12:07
  I mean,
• 12:08
  like,
• 12:08
  for instance,
• 12:08
  the one thing that's missing from these demands is Kavanaugh
• 12:12
  stops.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_02: They should statutorily prohibit those.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_02: I think that the Constitution prohibits them.
• 12:17
  But for now,
• 12:18
  the Supreme Court is saying the Constitution is suspended on on
• 12:21
  that terrain.
• 12:22
  And so agents are free to harass people on the basis of their
• 12:27
  skin color or their
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_02: accents or whatever else.
• 12:29
  If they can come up with some fig leaf,
• 12:31
  you know,
• 12:31
  you're near a Home Depot or whatever.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_02: So that would be one.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_02: One that is in there, which I think is important, is no more quotas.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um,
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_02: and,
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_02: uh,
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_02: and like,
• 12:43
  that seems to be a big reason why they just are like willy
• 12:47
  nilly going after people
• 12:48
  that they think might not have papers on them is because they
• 12:51
  get in trouble if
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_02: they don't hit their quota and they get paid more if they do.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_02: So they're, the incentives are for them to be heedless and brutish.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_02: And so that needs to stop, um, masks coming down.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_02: That's an important one.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_02: I think like, um, uh,
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 13:10
  impartial federal state investigation of the killer of Renee
• 13:13
  Good and the killer of
• 13:14
  Alex Peretti would create a big disincentive to the officers
• 13:18
  themselves because
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_02: they know that if they do that kind of shit,
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_02: they might end up in prison.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_02: There are ways.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, like, like,
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know that like,
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_02: I know progressive people who would find that list of concessions to be
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_02: unsatisfying.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_02: Like I,
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_02: I see people pointing out,
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_02: CBP is allowed to operate within a hundred miles of the border.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_02: And if you,
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_02: if you,
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_02: if you do it like an internal ring within the United States,
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_02: it's a hundred miles from the borders trace one.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_02: It's like two thirds of the U S population is within that.
• 13:48
  And so you're leaving the majority of the country vulnerable to
• 13:51
  something like that.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_02: But like,
• 13:54
  what you'd be leaving them vulnerable to if you could get those
• 13:58
  other concessions
• 14:00
  would be way less likely to turn into Minneapolis than like if
• 14:10
  none of the
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_02: concessions are offered up.
• 14:12
  And you just need to be willing to leave all the other agencies
• 14:17
  of DHS and possibly of –
• 14:19
  agencies within different cabinet departments shut down for as
• 14:22
  long as it takes.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_02: Like,
• 14:23
  you have to say this is intolerable or else you're going to
• 14:26
  vote to tolerate it and
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_02: you're going to get a lot more Minneapolis.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_02: So one thing that I think is interesting about this is,
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 14:38
  it's been clear for a long time that the actual emotional core
• 14:44
  of opposition to
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: Trump
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: Is about this interior enforcement.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_02: Well, it's about fascism, period.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_02: Like, but presenting here as quote unquote immigration enforcement.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_01: But like across the aisle.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 15:01
  If you listen to a leftist podcaster,
• 15:03
  this is what they're actually mad about.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: If you listen to a more moderate,
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: resistancy podcaster,
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: this is what they're more mad about.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: Officially.
• 15:12
  the position of everybody in the Democratic Party is that we
• 15:19
  are dealing with what
• 15:21
  moderates call pocketbook issues and what progressives call
• 15:25
  like the oligarchy,
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: And like billionaires.
• 15:29
  And I just think it's like interesting that absolutely nobody
• 15:32
  actually believes
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: that,
• 15:34
  but also that nobody can like stick to their story for more
• 15:37
  than six minutes about
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: something.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like,
• 15:41
  I think I disagree with this because we had a big DHS operation
• 15:49
  near New Orleans,
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_02: in and around New Orleans.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_02: And through all of that, I mean, people were pissed.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not pretending like... Sure.
• 15:57
  But it did not galvanize the opposition the way Minneapolis did
• 16:04
  because I believe
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_02: it was a difference in kind.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_02: That was like...
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_02: secret police hanging around a city just to,
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_02: in a way that people recognized as clearly not about immigration.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_02: And then,
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_02: Pam Bondi writes a letter saying,
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_02: hey,
• 16:21
  we'll pull these people out if you give up control of your
• 16:24
  police department and
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_02: hand over your voter rolls to the federal government.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_02: Like, clearly it was not about any real,
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_02: um, problem with like illegal immigrants who had committed.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: I guess, I mean, obviously the events matter, like Renee good was killed.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you now have Republicans and that really amped it up.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_01: And then pretty was killed.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it was, um, a, a second person is worse than just one.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: And also I think the, um,
• 16:55
  specific facts of the credit case were worse and more and more
• 17:00
  unambiguous.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: And that has made a big difference.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so now Republicans, you know, are going to back down to some extent.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: But I mean-
• 17:09
  What I think Republicans are going to try to achieve by backing
• 17:13
  down is to refocus
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: on an immigration policy debate.
• 17:20
  Because they are aware that there is a big gap between the
• 17:24
  position of the
• 17:25
  Republican Party on immigration enforcement and the position of
• 17:29
  the Democratic
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: Party on immigration enforcement.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: And Trump has been saying,
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: we're going to push harder,
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_01: push harder,
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_01: push harder on immigration because this is our best issue.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: We're going to win the argument.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: He tipped into overreach territory after Good died.
• 17:45
  And instead of pulling back then,
• 17:48
  like when he should have,
• 17:49
  he pushed further.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: Something worse happened.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: He wound up like way on a limb.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: You know, Republicans started turning on him.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so now he's like he's beating a tactical retreat.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_01: And.
• 18:02
  You know,
• 18:02
  I just,
• 18:02
  I don't know where Democrats are going to go with that.
• 18:06
  Because I think,
• 18:07
  because I know what,
• 18:10
  I mean,
• 18:11
  I know what Democrats are going to do,
• 18:12
  right?
• 18:13
  Which is that they're going to take several feints in the
• 18:15
  direction of Boitlerism,
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_01: and then they're going to back down,
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: and then everybody's going to be mad at them.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: Because that's how Democrats do literally everything, is they like...
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: listen to you for like 70, 80% of the way.
• 18:29
  And then they don't actually do it because they don't actually
• 18:31
  think it's a good idea.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so like, that's what will happen.
• 18:34
  But I mean,
• 18:35
  it's a,
• 18:36
  it's a possibility,
• 18:37
  but I don't know that that's right.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's unquestionable.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I mean, I mean, what, what, what do you think is going to happen?
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like we're going to have a months long shutdown?
• 18:46
  No,
• 18:46
  no,
• 18:46
  I look like this is why here's a test for whether they actually
• 18:49
  listen to me or not.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_02: Well,
• 18:51
  they start saying that they will not fund DHS until they are
• 18:57
  satisfied that the new
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_02: policy will prevent more Minneapolis's,
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_02: Because if the Republican position is no statutory changes,
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_02: just trust us,
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_02: that is a recipe for more Minneapolis's.
• 19:13
  What I want to see is – I mean Donald Trump is in a
• 19:18
  discretionary retreat now
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_02: because the polling is looking really bad for him.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_02: But just like how he signed the Epstein bill,
• 19:25
  I want him to sign a bill that limits his authority to be
• 19:28
  forced to back down
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_02: because that is his power ebbing,
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_02: Like that –
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_02: And like I'm not saying that whatever,
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 19:35
  whatever they agree to will make me think they played their
• 19:39
  cards optimally.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_02: Like they have not been playing their cards optimally till now.
• 19:43
  Like seven House Democrats just walked the plank thinking that
• 19:47
  they were doing the
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_02: safe thing to vote for DHS funding.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 19:51
  And now the base is going to get mad at them and it's going to
• 19:53
  help Republicans like hold.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: in the midterm.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_02: They should have known that.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_02: That's on them, right?
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_02: Like that is on them.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think it is.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's just, it's on you and Greg.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we don't need to argue about it.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's just, it's like your whole thing and like Greg's everything.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_02: I had nothing to do with it, man.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_02: I promise you.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_02: Like they took, they took a vote.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_02: The predictable thing happened.
• 20:13
  The timing of the predictable thing was very unfortunate for
• 20:16
  them,
• 20:16
  but it happened.
• 20:17
  And like Tom Swasey did not apologize to his constituents
• 20:21
  because his constituents
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_02: are reading me,
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_02: Sure,
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: but like at the margin,
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: like you tried to pile on,
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_01: like you want to make life harder for frontline Democrats.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: You want to make it easier for Trump to win the election.
• 20:32
  If they had done what I did,
• 20:33
  they would be in much better shape right now.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_02: Anyway,
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_02: point is,
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_02: is that like whatever they end up like when DHS reopens,
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_02: assuming it shuts down.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: Uh-huh.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_02: If they get literally nothing, yeah, people are going to be pissed.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_02: If they get something, people are going to be pissed.
• 20:49
  Some people will be pissed,
• 20:50
  but like less so and less so and less so,
• 20:52
  right?
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: Let me just put it to you this way.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, there's a shutdown.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: It goes on for some period of time.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: Then eventually the shutdown ends.
• 21:02
  The way the shutdown ends is that some Democrats from the
• 21:06
  Senate agree to reopen.
• 21:09
  You know the list of Democrats who are inclined to do something
• 21:12
  like that.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_02: Well, yeah, except Jackie Rosen and Catherine Cortez Mastor are now like.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: They're not going to do it now.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm saying when it ends.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_01: Because it will end.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: It will end with those people backing down.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: Or not backing down, but agreeing to something.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: OK.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: And what they agree to.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: will be something, right?
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like they will have scored some concessions from Trump,
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_01: but it won't be every concession that a progressive might want to win.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: And then everyone is going to have to ask themselves on,
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: x.com,
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_01: formerly Twitter,
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: or whatever other posting mechanism you can do.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's like,
• 21:49
  are you going to get more retweets and little hearts and
• 21:52
  engagement by blasting the
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: moderate Democrats who sold out for too little?
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: Or by saying, eh, all things considered, it was a pretty good deal.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: And we know.
• 22:00
  We don't need to know anything about the content of the deal to
• 22:04
  know that for
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: clout-chasing purposes,
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: denouncing them as sellouts is the right strategy to take.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what people will do.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: And we'll just be in the same cycle that we're always in with everything.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_02: I leave clout on the table all the time, man.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: The thing that I did...
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: But it just doesn't matter what you do or what I do or what anybody does.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like, people are actually...
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_02: reacting authentically to something crazy.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: The authentic views of the Democratic Party base are a huge problem.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: I completely agree with that.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: And like, I just don't, I just don't think it matters at this point.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: Like,
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: I think this idea of a turning point- I mean,
• 22:38
  do you think they should have not freaked out and demanded
• 22:40
  things as a result of
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_02: what happened in Minneapolis?
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_02: Like, what do you think the right-
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_02: move is if it's if it's not just purely just suck it up.
• 22:49
  And there sincerely is not a correct move for Democrats to make
• 22:53
  because the
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_01: authentic view of their base is very irrational.
• 22:57
  What is irrational about saying we're not going to vote to fund
• 23:00
  your government
• 23:00
  unless you guarantee that this won't happen anywhere in the
• 23:03
  United States again?
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's not possible.
• 23:05
  I guarantee that because you think Trump has greater willpower
• 23:08
  than but that has
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_02: nothing to do with policy.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_02: His policy is unpopular.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: Sure, and now he's not going to do it.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I don't know about that.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, for now, but it just is what it is.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I have nothing new to say about this.
• 23:22
  It's like either Democrats are on track to win a majority in
• 23:26
  the Senate or they are not.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: And the answer is they are not.
• 23:29
  Either they are trying to put themselves in a better position
• 23:32
  to win the Senate or
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_01: they are not trying.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_02: And they are not trying.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_02: Here's something that you haven't considered, I don't think.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't sound like.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_02: Do you think this is good for Susan Collins,
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_02: the chair of the Appropriations Committee,
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_02: and also the hardest to beat Republican swing state incumbent?
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_02: No, I mean, she is definitely in trouble here.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, okay.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: This is a bad, bad for her.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: No, but- What happened?
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: This is what I agree.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: If Democrats just vote to fund DHS,
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: if they're like,
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: Mr.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: Trump promised us that this wouldn't happen again-
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: so that's good enough for me, handshake, right?
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_01: If Democrats did that deal,
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: which they won't,
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: and then their base was like,
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: sounds good to me,
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: Chuck,
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: which of course their base won't be,
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: and then something like this happened again,
• 24:17
  That would be really bad politically for Trump and would be
• 24:20
  good politically for
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: Democrats,
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 24:22
  But like the internal dynamic of the Democratic Party is that
• 24:26
  anytime something
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: good is happening for them politically,
• 24:29
  they find a way to transform it back into infighting and
• 24:33
  different people being mad
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: at each other because there's like authentic rage and furor in the base,
• 24:39
  which is much more interested in engaging in infighting and
• 24:43
  unrealistic demands
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: than in trying to win the midterms,
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: Which like is fine.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: I have a chained piece about it.
• 24:49
  Look at what actually happens in practice when Trump's agents
• 24:55
  are unleashed on
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_02: people with impunity and they begin to murder them.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_02: And then a subset of Democrats decides we're going to fund this.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_02: What happens to them?
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_02: Like their politics do not improve.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_02: Their politics get much, much, much.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because of the, I completely, I just, I want to be clear.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: I 100% agree with you.
• 25:13
  My advice to every frontline Democrat is to just give in to
• 25:16
  Boitlerism because it
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: is less counterproductive than trying to fight.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just saying like objectively,
• 25:22
  what I think is going to happen is that there is not going to
• 25:25
  be a turning point.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: that Trump is going to regain political advantage on immigration,
• 25:29
  that Republicans are going to continue to hold the Senate after
• 25:31
  the midterms,
• 25:32
  that the judiciary will continue to be modified and that we
• 25:35
  will trundle into a
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: 50-50 race in 2028.
• 25:38
  That like the big lesson to me here is that like Donald Trump
• 25:43
  is pretty adept and like,
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_01: When things are a loser for him, he cuts bait and backs down on them.
• 25:51
  And if you care a lot about the substance of the first order
• 25:54
  question,
• 25:55
  right?
• 25:55
  Like the activist community in Minneapolis did an amazing job
• 26:00
  here of getting this
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: deployment ended.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like if that's the thing that you care about, like they did it.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: They beat him.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: They won.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so glad that you landed here.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: But now it's like, so what?
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm not satisfied at all.
• 26:16
  Like,
• 26:16
  I think it's really bad that Donald Trump is president of the
• 26:19
  United States.
• 26:20
  And I don't think that getting him to tactically reverse
• 26:24
  himself on the deployment
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_01: in Minnesota is all that significant to me personally.
• 26:30
  But,
• 26:30
  you know,
• 26:30
  to the people who are in the streets fighting for it,
• 26:33
  like,
• 26:33
  it's a huge win.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_02: Like, they did great.
• 26:40
  would be for millions and millions of Americans to decide to
• 26:45
  only direct their fury
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_02: at extrajudicial killings at Trump,
• 26:49
  even as a subset of members of the Democratic Party vote to
• 26:54
  fund the Department of
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_02: Homeland Security without restriction.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_01: I would like them to respond to that killing immediately.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: By doing a huge fundraiser for Tom Swasey and to say,
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: I'm fucking mad at Trump and I'm back in Tom Swasey with a lot of money.
• 27:07
  But do you see how in practice what that means is that like the
• 27:11
  best politics for
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_02: Democrats in this view is that some number of law abiding.
• 27:18
  Americans who are observing ICE just get murdered between now
• 27:22
  and the election.
• 27:23
  And that is the mechanism by which Democrats improve their
• 27:28
  political fortunes.
• 27:29
  Like I think it would just be way better if Democrats would
• 27:33
  stick to their plan and
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: like try to argue about affordability and not this stuff,
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: but like they don't want to.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just like,
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: I'm trying to be a realist,
• 27:42
  which is to say like Democrats aren't going to do what I want
• 27:46
  and they're also not
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: going to do what you want.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like we just we know what's going to happen here.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't even know what the point of argument is.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_02: We are actually clashing our way into an agreement.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_02: The one thing I disagree with you about is the certainty.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_02: Like we were both,
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_02: I think,
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_02: not totally certain,
• 28:01
  but we had different thoughts about how the Democrats
• 28:04
  prosecuted the last shutdown.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_02: And like we were both wrong, right?
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 28:09
  I continue to believe that they should have made their demands
• 28:14
  the things that I
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_02: want to see happen.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_02: But like they did the shutdown.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_02: The shutdown lasted long.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_02: And even though they caved,
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_02: it was a political winner for them.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think either of us had that on our bingo card.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't think we should have much on our bingo card right now.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_02: It could absolutely go the way you're suggesting,
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_02: but it could end with Democrats getting concessions from the White House.
• 28:34
  And we look back on 2025 and January 2026 as the period where
• 28:41
  Trump was completely
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_02: unconstrained on enforcement.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_02: It blew up in his face and things never returned to that bad again.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_02: It's possible.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_02: You just don't know.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_01: I agree that things I mean,
• 28:53
  I think it's quite likely that Trump is not going to attempt to
• 28:58
  try this again.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's possible.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like regardless of what's in the legislation.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: Look,
• 29:05
  here's here's something that like because just something I was
• 29:08
  definitely wrong
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: about is like.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: When Trump won the election.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 29:14
  And we were doing the transition and I was working on pieces
• 29:17
  and everybody was
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: what do we think Donald Trump is going to do as president?
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I definitely thought he was going to do stuff on immigration.
• 29:26
  I did not think he was going to do the particular thing on
• 29:29
  immigration that he's done.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: It was very odd.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: I, for better or worse...
• 29:37
  my most intimate familiarity with conservative thinking on
• 29:40
  immigration enforcement
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_01: is sort of like second order downstream of Tom Honan.
• 29:46
  And so like,
• 29:46
  I thought they were going to try to do what Tom Honan thinks
• 29:49
  they should do.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_01: And early on,
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: he was like appointed border czar and blah,
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: blah,
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: blah,
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: and like seemed like he might be running the show.
• 29:56
  And I think a like very likely outcome of this is going to be
• 29:59
  that Trump switches strategies to,
• 30:03
  on immigration enforcement and declares victory on having
• 30:06
  secured the border and
• 30:08
  keeps deporting probably the same quantity of people as he's
• 30:12
  been doing because
• 30:13
  this kind of deployment in Minneapolis is a very low throughput
• 30:19
  way of actually
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: conducting deport.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I don't know.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_01: I want to confess significant uncertainty about this,
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: but I just don't see any reason to believe that
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_01: going back to the well on this kind of operation,
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_01: which,
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: remember,
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_01: hadn't been working out that well previously,
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: He went into...
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_01: But Bovino's whole rising star was that Trump seemed to really enjoy the
• 30:46
  confrontations between protesters and ICE agents that were
• 30:50
  happening in Los Angeles
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_01: at the beginning of his term.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_01: And there was,
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 30:53
  some mini-rioting in downtown LA that the governor and the
• 30:58
  mayor and the activists
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_01: and whatever,
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: like...
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_01: got a handle on fast and sort of like nothing happened.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 31:05
  And so Trump gave up on Los Angeles and he went into Chicago
• 31:09
  where I think,
• 31:10
  um,
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_01: They had a lower estimate of the mayor there,
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_01: and he's often been at odds with the governor,
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: et cetera.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_01: But again,
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to say nothing bad happened in Chicago,
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_01: but politically,
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: there was a huge bust for Trump.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: Pritzker's star just rose in Democratic Party politics.
• 31:29
  It was probably the best news cycle that Brandon Johnson has
• 31:31
  had ever since.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: was just being mayor during that deployment.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_01: And so Trump stopped, right?
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_02: And then- Well, he was ordered to by a judge and then the Supreme Court-
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_01: But I mean, it stopped.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: And then we didn't know what was going to happen.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_01: And then this welfare fraud story broke in Minnesota.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so they were like, all right, we're going to do it again.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 31:55
  Because they thought this would be a way to shine a light on
• 31:58
  the welfare story.
• 31:59
  And they did like get Tim Walz to drop out of the governor's
• 32:02
  race and other kinds
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: of stuff like that.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_01: But it wound up completely blowing up in their faces, ultimately.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: So I just think it's like highly possible.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: that we just won't see a deployment of that kind again.
• 32:19
  So what you're saying,
• 32:23
  Trump has better survival instincts than the people around him.
• 32:26
  So if it was just him,
• 32:27
  I think that he'd stand a decent chance of being right about
• 32:30
  that.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_02: And one thing I haven't thought about until now,
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_02: and I would want to think about it more before saying,
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_02: because I don't know the answer to the question,
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_02: how I would feel about this.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_02: But if Trump's position of the Democrats was...
• 32:43
  I can't sign a DHS appropriations bill that amid a shutdown
• 32:50
  while you're making
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_02: demands,
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_02: like for the incentives reasons.
• 32:53
  But what I can do is fire Stephen Miller and fire Kristi Noem
• 32:58
  and fire Corey
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_02: Lewandowski and promise to appoint...
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_02: Or nominate,
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_02: actually nominate,
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_02: some Republican governor who's kind of normal,
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_02: like the governor of,
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know,
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_02: like Utah,
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_02: whatever,
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_02: somebody to run DHS.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_02: And that will be your insurance that we're not going to do this again.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_02: Again,
• 33:21
  I want to give that some thought as to whether that would be
• 33:24
  quote-unquote
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_02: concession enough.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_01: This is John Fetterman, your hero, and every resistance hero.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_01: He's saying got to fire Christy Nome.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_01: Republicans are saying that.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like that's how far behind the eight ball they are.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_02: Look,
• 33:40
  that is something that I will consider as this podcast is being
• 33:45
  produced and as
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_02: people are listening to it.
• 33:48
  I do think that that is a meaningful kind of defeat for Trump
• 33:52
  and something to put
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_02: in the hopper.
• 33:56
  But you did reluctantly say the frontline members would be
• 34:02
  better off boitling
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_02: because it avoids,
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_02: that's just the,
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_02: and I had two lessons drawn from this,
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_02: which is what I wanted the theme of the show to be.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_02: It's like,
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_02: how can we,
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 34:12
  what can we learn from what has worked in Minnesota and also
• 34:14
  what has worked
• 34:16
  in the Greenland taco to keep Trump at bay so that he doesn't
• 34:20
  keep encroaching.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_02: And the most obvious one,
• 34:24
  the one where we're in tightest agreement is just that the
• 34:26
  civil disobedience
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_02: works,
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_02: This was like textbook.
• 34:30
  This is how the theory of civil disobedience operates is it
• 34:35
  pulls public support in
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_02: the direction of the resistance and it divides the armed forces together.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_02: It worked exactly as theory says it should.
• 34:47
  And I think like people should be gearing up in their cities if
• 34:51
  they live in places
• 34:52
  like we live to join these huge signal neighborhood chats and
• 34:58
  be prepared to drive
• 34:58
  around honking at ice with whistles and be prepared to be
• 35:03
  sprayed in the face and
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_02: maybe beaten and maybe shot.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_02: And but it'll work.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_02: And if if Trump sees that this.
• 35:15
  Method is is metastasizing,
• 35:17
  that would be a disincentive for him to to try again.
• 35:21
  And this is why I think Kash Patel has said he's going to
• 35:25
  investigate the signal
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_02: groups,
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_02: which is like like insane.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_02: Like.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_02: uh, Hoover style oppressive bullshit, but also a sign of desperation.
• 35:37
  They know that that's an effective tactic and all they can do
• 35:39
  is try to scare
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_02: people out of joining signal groups.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_02: The other lesson is that like,
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_02: I think is that the only thing,
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_02: and I think the Greenland situation kind of points in this direction too,
• 35:49
  is that the only thing that reliably works with Trump is just
• 35:53
  relentlessly fighting
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_02: him.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_02: Even if you're not super sure footed in the fight.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and that like,
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 36:00
  I bet every one of the seven Democrats and Hakeem Jeffries
• 36:03
  really thought that they
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_02: were doing the shrewd thing.
• 36:05
  I really sincerely believe they thought that was wise and that
• 36:09
  they didn't have the
• 36:10
  moral imagination to to think that somebody might be shot on
• 36:13
  camera again.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_02: But it was like the most obvious thing in the world.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_02: And so that vote was going to come back to haunt those seven people.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not going to engage with this.
• 36:26
  I believe that frontline Democrats are heroes and that the most
• 36:30
  important thing is
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_01: to try to defeat Republicans in elections.
• 36:34
  I do not agree with every single thing that every frontline
• 36:37
  Democrat has done.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_01: In particular,
• 36:39
  I think that all of them should be dramatically more
• 36:42
  conservative in their policy
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_01: positions on social and cultural issues.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_01: That being said,
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_01: whatever they choose to do,
• 36:51
  I will be trying to help them win their election races against
• 36:55
  Republicans.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that that is important.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_01: Let's take a break.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_01: Let's talk about Greenland.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_02: Fine.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_02: OK,
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_02: if you want to hear us talk about Greenland,
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_02: you go to politics.fm and upgrade your subscription.