Latest / Hurdle with Emily Abbate / Episode 29: Andy Puddicombe, Co-Founder Headspace

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Episode 29: Andy Puddicombe, Co-Founder Headspace · Hurdle with Emily Abbate

0:02
Speaker 1: Hey, Hurdlarry's Emily a body here. Welcome to episode twenty
0:06
Speaker 1: nine of Hurdle, a podcast that talks to top CEOs
0:09
Speaker 1: and entrepreneurs about how they got through tough times hurdles
0:12
Speaker 1: of sorts by leaning into wellness. Today, I'm chatting with
0:16
Speaker 1: Andy Puttacum. He's the co founder and voice of Headspace.
0:21
Speaker 1: I say this to Andy first thing in the episode,
0:23
Speaker 1: but this one just really blew me out of the
0:25
Speaker 1: water for a few reasons. First of all, when I
0:28
Speaker 1: made my dream guest list almost a year ago for
0:32
Speaker 1: who I wanted to have on this podcast, Andy's name
0:34
Speaker 1: was right at the top of it. Plus, I listened
0:37
Speaker 1: to his voice almost every single day using the Headspace
0:41
Speaker 1: app in my living room on my couch through my SONA,
0:44
Speaker 1: so sitting with him in person was kind of a trip.
0:47
Speaker 1: Before we get into Andy's story, shout out to the
0:50
Speaker 1: sponsor of today's episode, Athletic Greens, complete with twelve servings
0:54
Speaker 1: of fruits and vegetables. Having the greens powder first thing
0:56
Speaker 1: in the morning before I head out the door makes
0:58
Speaker 1: me feel like a better me. They're offering a special
1:01
Speaker 1: deal for Hurdle listeners. It's twenty free travel packs valued
1:05
Speaker 1: at ninety nine dollars With your first purchase, just go
1:08
Speaker 1: on over to Athleticgreens dot com slash hurdle to claim it.
1:11
Speaker 1: No code necessary Again, that's Athleticgreens dot com slash hurdle.
1:15
Speaker 1: Now let's talk about Andy. Born in Bristol, England, he
1:20
Speaker 1: dropped out of university where he was studying sports science
1:22
Speaker 1: after some friends were horrifically killed in a freak car
1:25
Speaker 1: accident early on Christmas morning. Three months later, his stepsister
1:30
Speaker 1: was run over while riding her bike. Hoping to process
1:33
Speaker 1: the trauma, and he went off to Asia in search
1:36
Speaker 1: of meaning. For ten years, he studied meditation as a
1:39
Speaker 1: Buddhist monk. His journey then brought him back to London,
1:42
Speaker 1: where friends suggested he meet Rich Pearson, a super creative
1:46
Speaker 1: guy with an advertising background that would eventually become Putcomb's
1:49
Speaker 1: co founder of Headspace, an idea that he once described
1:53
Speaker 1: as the Nike Plus of mindfulness. Now, if you've never
1:57
Speaker 1: used Headspace, and I don't know that many people that haven't.
2:00
Speaker 1: It's essentially an app that makes meditation simple, with hundreds
2:04
Speaker 1: of theme sessions on everything from stress and sleep to
2:07
Speaker 1: focus and anxiety. They've actually got these SOS exercises in
2:11
Speaker 1: case of sudden meltdowns, which I personally am a huge
2:14
Speaker 1: fan of using around like three pm in the afternoon
2:17
Speaker 1: during the work week. The app now boasts an astonishing
2:21
Speaker 1: thirty million members and one million paid subscribers. If you
2:26
Speaker 1: haven't checked it out, I strongly encourage you to do so.
2:29
Speaker 1: They've got everything from one minute to twenty minute to
2:32
Speaker 1: thirty minute options on there, so there's a flavor and
2:35
Speaker 1: style for absolutely everyone. Spoiler alert. Also, today's podcast finishes
2:39
Speaker 1: up with Andy leaving me and in turn in all
2:41
Speaker 1: of you and a brief meditation, so you'll be able
2:44
Speaker 1: to get a sneak peek a little flavor of all.
2:47
Speaker 1: This all goes down over there on the app. As
2:50
Speaker 1: always Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, follow along at Hurdle Podcast and
2:55
Speaker 1: the wake of Thanksgiving now is just the perfect time
2:58
Speaker 1: to tell you, guys how much I I'm so grateful
3:01
Speaker 1: for you, so thankful for you. If you were following
3:04
Speaker 1: along with Hurdle on Instagram last week, you probably saw
3:07
Speaker 1: me absolutely freaking out with excitement when Hurdle landed on
3:11
Speaker 1: the Apple Podcast Top ten chart over on the Fitness
3:14
Speaker 1: and Nutrition page, So Thank you. Please keep sharing engaging.
3:19
Speaker 1: It's just so special to be able to connect with
3:21
Speaker 1: all of you so often. It's the best part of
3:25
Speaker 1: all of this. Shoot me an email Emily at hurdle
3:28
Speaker 1: dot us to say hi or share a hurdle moment
3:31
Speaker 1: of your own. I think that's it, and with that,
3:35
Speaker 1: let's get to hurdling. I'm in the studio today with
3:50
Speaker 1: Andy Putticum. I uh, this is kind of surreal for
3:54
Speaker 1: me right now. You know, when I concepted Hurdle and
4:00
Speaker 1: I thought about the people that I wanted to come
4:02
Speaker 1: into this room before even knowing this room existed. You
4:07
Speaker 1: were probably the first or second person I wrote down
4:10
Speaker 1: well and yeah, thank you. So it's amazing. Andy is
4:15
Speaker 1: the co founder and voice of Headspace. I feel like
4:19
Speaker 1: people probably tell you all the time that it's weird
4:21
Speaker 1: to talk to you in person.
4:23
Speaker 2: I do get that quite a lot. I get a
4:25
Speaker 2: quite a lot, and I also get a lot it's normally
4:27
Speaker 2: kind of in airports and restaurants and stuff where I
4:29
Speaker 2: meet people who use headspace, and they often tell me
4:33
Speaker 2: that they use headspace to go to sleep, and so
4:37
Speaker 2: I'm always a little worried when I speak to people
4:39
Speaker 2: are going to sort of slowly kind of doze off
4:41
Speaker 2: or just pass out, but hopefully it doesn't happen.
4:44
Speaker 1: During today's I'm glad I'm sitting here with a cup
4:47
Speaker 1: of coffee. It's safe for me to say that I
4:51
Speaker 1: think most everyone I know has either dabbled in or
4:55
Speaker 1: uses headspace regularly, which is not a surprise because headspace
5:00
Speaker 1: now has more than thirty million members, which is unreal.
5:05
Speaker 2: That's a lot. Yeah, I know, it's I think it's
5:08
Speaker 2: still you know, we set out to do that obviously,
5:11
Speaker 2: but it's still a surprise, you know, it's Yeah.
5:15
Speaker 1: So why don't you just a quick overview of what
5:18
Speaker 1: headspace is before we really dive into it.
5:21
Speaker 2: So the way I think about it is that Headspace
5:25
Speaker 2: gives people the tools that they need to cope with life.
5:29
Speaker 2: So we all have a mind, and we all struggle
5:30
Speaker 2: with our mind sometimes, and it's surprising actually that there
5:35
Speaker 2: aren't that many tools out there to help us cope
5:37
Speaker 2: with our mind. If you think about healthy living generally,
5:40
Speaker 2: there are loads of tools out there to help us
5:42
Speaker 2: with our physical fitness and with our nutrition and sleep
5:45
Speaker 2: and every other kind of aspect. There's not really that
5:47
Speaker 2: much to kind of help with with sort of the
5:50
Speaker 2: way that we feel, whether we're feeling stressed, whether we're
5:52
Speaker 2: feeling anxious, whether they might be feeling kind of sad
5:54
Speaker 2: or frustrated, or whether we're just simply looking to kind
5:57
Speaker 2: of boost certain elements of our life to be more focused, reductive.
6:00
Speaker 2: So it is meditation, but I think about it in
6:04
Speaker 2: a broader sense. I think it's it's about the mind.
6:06
Speaker 2: It's about the way that we relate to ourselves, and
6:09
Speaker 2: it's about the way we relate to the world around us.
6:11
Speaker 1: And of course when someone opens the Headspace app, it's
6:15
Speaker 1: not a one track for all users. There's a lot
6:18
Speaker 1: of options.
6:19
Speaker 2: There's a lot of options, do you know when we
6:21
Speaker 2: first started and when we first launched the Apple sproke
6:24
Speaker 2: about seven years ago. We launched company about ten years ago,
6:26
Speaker 2: but we launched the app seven years ago, there was
6:29
Speaker 2: just one route. So I did three hundred and sixty
6:31
Speaker 2: five days, and I sat in a recording studio for
6:33
Speaker 2: a long time and did every single kind of day,
6:36
Speaker 2: you know, and it progressed and took people on a journey,
6:39
Speaker 2: and people who were into it was great. There's a
6:41
Speaker 2: bit like getting on a train. You're either kind of
6:43
Speaker 2: staying on that train till the end to the destination,
6:45
Speaker 2: or you're kind of getting off. And people would say, well,
6:48
Speaker 2: right now, I'm struggling with my relationships, and you don't
6:51
Speaker 2: get to relationships until like month five. So one of
6:54
Speaker 2: my how do I apply my mind this's to my
6:55
Speaker 2: relationships right now. So we change it to a sort
6:58
Speaker 2: of a modular system where there are a packs that
7:00
Speaker 2: you can do, so packs on relationships or on stress,
7:03
Speaker 2: or on anxiety. So it just means that you can
7:05
Speaker 2: sort of personalize your own journey a little bit.
7:07
Speaker 1: Great. So when you say a pack, it's like I
7:09
Speaker 1: click on this section that says relationships and for.
7:13
Speaker 2: It could be a ten day course, it could be
7:14
Speaker 2: a thirty day course, or it could just be a
7:16
Speaker 2: one off single, like just a one off ten fifteen
7:19
Speaker 2: to twenty minute exercise.
7:20
Speaker 1: And Headspace offers free meditation, but then it also offers
7:24
Speaker 1: different opportunities to buy in if you want kind of
7:27
Speaker 1: to level up your experience.
7:29
Speaker 2: Yeah, so we set out when we started, we wanted
7:32
Speaker 2: to make sure that whatever whatever we did, we would
7:36
Speaker 2: always make meditation available for everybody. So that kind of
7:40
Speaker 2: it kind of dictated the model that we have, which
7:43
Speaker 2: is a freemium model. So yeah, there are there are
7:45
Speaker 2: some people who've used headspace for years and never paid anything,
7:48
Speaker 2: and that makes me really happy kind of that they're
7:50
Speaker 2: able to do that. But for people who want to
7:53
Speaker 2: go deeper in certain areas, then yeah you can, you
7:56
Speaker 2: can subscribe.
7:56
Speaker 1: I just want to check. You said freemium. Yeah, like
8:00
Speaker 1: and premium. That's in one word, that's that's a real thing.
8:04
Speaker 2: At least he's on the West Coast.
8:07
Speaker 1: It's a whole new language out there. So why don't
8:10
Speaker 1: we backjock a little bit. Obviously Headspace didn't get founded overnight.
8:13
Speaker 1: You didn't start talking meditations over night. So why don't
8:17
Speaker 1: you tell me about where you're from, how you were
8:19
Speaker 1: brought up.
8:20
Speaker 2: So I was I'd say fairly kind of traditional kind
8:24
Speaker 2: of household, but with a very very progressive mum. My
8:28
Speaker 2: grandparents were doing yoga and having acupuncture back in the
8:32
Speaker 2: fifties in London, and yeah, my mom had kind of
8:35
Speaker 2: grown up in that household, and so she was working
8:38
Speaker 2: in stress management and she was doing kind of relaxation
8:41
Speaker 2: stuff with people and even going into businesses like back
8:45
Speaker 2: in their eighties. So it was a long time ago,
8:47
Speaker 2: and so that was kind of all around me, and
8:49
Speaker 2: we learned meditation from the age of ten or eleven,
8:53
Speaker 2: and I think it was probably kind of It was
8:55
Speaker 2: later on, it's probably my late teens that I kind
8:58
Speaker 2: of became more interested in it and then eventually went
9:02
Speaker 2: on to become a Buddhist monk.
9:04
Speaker 1: When you say you were doing meditation at age ten,
9:07
Speaker 1: what did that look like in your home?
9:09
Speaker 2: That looked like sitting cross legged on my bed for
9:12
Speaker 2: twenty minutes a day. And we started off back in
9:17
Speaker 2: those days. There wasn't loads of stuff available. There wasn't
9:20
Speaker 2: a lot of choice when it came to meditation. We
9:23
Speaker 2: started off with transcendental meditation. And then as I, as
9:28
Speaker 2: I kind of read and as I learned more, as
9:30
Speaker 2: kind of getting older, became more interested in the Buddhist traditions,
9:33
Speaker 2: and yeah, it eventually kind of went off to study
9:36
Speaker 2: as a monk.
9:37
Speaker 1: This is so interesting to me. I think a lot
9:40
Speaker 1: of people have this misconception of what mindfulness and meditation is.
9:45
Speaker 1: I mean, you said it, you said, probably the one
9:47
Speaker 1: thing that a lot of people think about it's sitting
9:49
Speaker 1: cross legged on your bed. Some people think you're supposed
9:53
Speaker 1: to have like some sort of special candle lit and
9:55
Speaker 1: stages burning. But that's not really all that it is.
9:58
Speaker 2: It's definitely not what it is. There's a good reason
10:01
Speaker 2: that I'm no longer a monk, you know. I think
10:03
Speaker 2: it was for you know, I could see how useful
10:06
Speaker 2: the skill was a tour was, and how people were
10:10
Speaker 2: put off by all those barriers, where it's cultural barriers, length,
10:13
Speaker 2: linguistic barriers, whether it's the idea of wearing funny clothes
10:17
Speaker 2: or sitting cross legged, and you don't need to do
10:20
Speaker 2: any of that stuff. And so I kind of felt
10:22
Speaker 2: really passionate that there was a way of presenting meditation
10:26
Speaker 2: where it's for all of us, you know, And you
10:29
Speaker 2: can sit on a chair, you can lie on the floor.
10:31
Speaker 2: You don't have to do it for an hour. You
10:32
Speaker 2: can do it for three minutes and still get some
10:34
Speaker 2: kind of benefit out of it. You don't have to
10:36
Speaker 2: use a funny, strange sounding foreign mantra. You can just
10:40
Speaker 2: focus on your breath. That's enough. So I feel like
10:43
Speaker 2: the way this sort of I guess, new kind of
10:46
Speaker 2: secular way of presenting meditation has opened the doorway for
10:49
Speaker 2: people to try it in a way that had never
10:51
Speaker 2: really been available in the past. Before.
10:54
Speaker 1: I mean, on my way down here, I opened the
10:56
Speaker 1: Headspace commuting pack, right, Yeah, yeah, that's and honestly, as
11:01
Speaker 1: someone who for years now has been trying to figure
11:04
Speaker 1: out what her ideal practices, I try to fit it
11:07
Speaker 1: in ideally once a day. Sometimes for me kind of
11:11
Speaker 1: an unconventional time is around three thirty four o'clock when
11:14
Speaker 1: I feel like I need a break from my work.
11:16
Speaker 1: But I'm a weak enough to do it because I
11:18
Speaker 1: tried doing it first thing in the morning, and for me,
11:21
Speaker 1: it just yeah, isn't always It doesn't always work that way.
11:24
Speaker 2: Something different for everyone, you know, so people always say
11:26
Speaker 2: it kind of when should I do it? I think
11:28
Speaker 2: that my recommendation is that you at least try it
11:31
Speaker 2: in the morning, but not everyone's a morning person, so
11:34
Speaker 2: that's not going to work for everybody. But for those
11:36
Speaker 2: people who get on with it in the morning, it
11:38
Speaker 2: means you do it and it doesn't get forgotten and
11:41
Speaker 2: so many things going on in our life, sometimes it
11:43
Speaker 2: can slip down the to do list. It kind of
11:46
Speaker 2: helps often people transition from sleep to sort of the
11:50
Speaker 2: waking day or a bit more alert, a bit more focused.
11:54
Speaker 2: And it also my one of my favorite this is
11:57
Speaker 2: Years and years ago, this guy wrote in said, look,
12:00
Speaker 2: the meditation is nice. I like it. But the biggest
12:03
Speaker 2: thing I like about headspace is that when I do
12:05
Speaker 2: it first thing in the day, I make better choices
12:07
Speaker 2: throughout my day when it comes to health and wellbeing.
12:10
Speaker 2: I'm more likely to go to the gym. I'm more
12:12
Speaker 2: likely to be aware of what food I'm eating and
12:15
Speaker 2: why I'm eating it, and those kind of things. So
12:17
Speaker 2: it's almost like we start the day in the way
12:20
Speaker 2: that we mean to go on, but everyone's different, and
12:23
Speaker 2: the most important thing is just to prioritize it in
12:26
Speaker 2: your day at some stage. My one kind of bit
12:29
Speaker 2: of advice is that maybe the kind of maybe try
12:33
Speaker 2: not to leave it till last thing at night. Lots
12:35
Speaker 2: of people will lie down to do it in their
12:38
Speaker 2: bed at bedtime, and it's highly likely that you're going
12:43
Speaker 2: to fall asleep at some stage.
12:45
Speaker 1: If I if I'm listening to that you're smooth the
12:47
Speaker 1: boys at night, I am nine times out of ten asleep.
12:52
Speaker 1: Not that okay, I have to say that you're a
12:55
Speaker 1: bosone that puts everybody.
12:56
Speaker 2: I don't take that at all personally. I think it's
12:58
Speaker 2: a good thing, you know, I need rest.
13:01
Speaker 1: Okay, So in nineteen ninety four you kind of began
13:06
Speaker 1: your ten year training at some of the greatest Buddhist
13:09
Speaker 1: centers throughout Asia. But I don't feel like everyone just
13:15
Speaker 1: one day says to themselves, man like, this is exactly
13:20
Speaker 1: my calling is to be a Buddhist monk.
13:22
Speaker 2: Yeah, and look growing up, you would if if you'd
13:26
Speaker 2: have met me at sixteen, seventeen, eighteen, nineteen, even twenty,
13:30
Speaker 2: there's no way you'd have been like, yeah, this guy
13:32
Speaker 2: is going to be a monk. I wasn't living as
13:34
Speaker 2: a monk, and I definitely wasn't behaving as a monk.
13:36
Speaker 2: And I was living kind of a normal life, you know,
13:40
Speaker 2: of a student and doing all that stuff.
13:42
Speaker 1: So I went to you went to university. I in London.
13:45
Speaker 2: I'm just outside London, and I got about a year
13:49
Speaker 2: a year into it. And prior to going away to university,
13:52
Speaker 2: there are a couple of things that had happened and
13:55
Speaker 2: they were real kind of turning points for me in
13:58
Speaker 2: my life. One was being involved in a car accident.
14:02
Speaker 2: There was a big group of us standing on the
14:04
Speaker 2: sidewalk Christmas morning after a party at Christmas Eve, and
14:10
Speaker 2: a drunk driver crashed into the group and I was
14:13
Speaker 2: on the outside of the group, so I didn't get
14:15
Speaker 2: I didn't get hit, but twelve people kind of went
14:17
Speaker 2: to hospital. Two of them died. And it was Although
14:21
Speaker 2: it wasn't immedia, I didn't kind of immediately go away
14:24
Speaker 2: and think what am I going to do with my life?
14:27
Speaker 2: I think it set something in motion where I was
14:32
Speaker 2: kind of forced to ask myself what was life about
14:38
Speaker 2: and how was I going to find meaning and purpose
14:40
Speaker 2: in my own life? And as that was kind of
14:43
Speaker 2: beginning to sort of cultivate or steer a little bit,
14:46
Speaker 2: my stepsister got run over as well, and she died
14:48
Speaker 2: in a bicycle accident, so probably about six months later.
14:53
Speaker 2: So I think those two things too, Yeah, they kind
14:55
Speaker 2: of started this, yeah, this this search, if you like.
14:59
Speaker 2: And I think it's really easy kind of when those
15:03
Speaker 2: things happen, Like, we don't grow up learning how to
15:06
Speaker 2: deal with those things, right, so it's really easy to
15:09
Speaker 2: turn to I don't know, alcohol or drugs or some
15:14
Speaker 2: kind of distraction to get us away from it. And
15:17
Speaker 2: you know, of course, like any person growing up, I
15:20
Speaker 2: dabbled with things. But the problem is you always then
15:24
Speaker 2: wake up the next day and your mind is in
15:27
Speaker 2: the same place as it was before, so the distraction
15:30
Speaker 2: is temporary. So I just started to think kind of,
15:33
Speaker 2: you know, I needed I needed something kind of a
15:36
Speaker 2: bit more, you know, long lasting, and it wasn't so
15:39
Speaker 2: I knew it was something that I couldn't get from
15:40
Speaker 2: a book. The doctor tried to convince me it was
15:43
Speaker 2: something that you could find in a bottle of medication.
15:46
Speaker 2: I didn't believe that. I hadn't grown up with that philosophy.
15:50
Speaker 2: There are times and places for that stuff, but that
15:52
Speaker 2: wasn't for me then. And so yeah, eventually I came
15:55
Speaker 2: to the conclusion that I should I should go off
15:59
Speaker 2: and find that environment in which I could really understand
16:02
Speaker 2: my mind and find the kind of peace of mind
16:05
Speaker 2: that I was looking for.
16:06
Speaker 1: And at that time, were you talking to a therapist
16:10
Speaker 1: or anyone to try to work through some of these issues.
16:13
Speaker 2: I did, so I went for about six months, I
16:16
Speaker 2: saw a therapist. So as my mum worked in that
16:19
Speaker 2: kind of industry, she worked as a therapist as well,
16:21
Speaker 2: and so yeah, I went to see one of her
16:24
Speaker 2: friends for a little while, for about six months or so,
16:27
Speaker 2: and it was useful, you know, I think it was
16:29
Speaker 2: important to be able to express some of those things
16:31
Speaker 2: that I hadn't really been able to articulate very well
16:34
Speaker 2: or understand. I don't think the therapy necessarily led to
16:39
Speaker 2: going off and becoming a monk, right, but it definitely
16:43
Speaker 2: created an environment in which I felt more able to
16:45
Speaker 2: more confident, I guess to say, Okay, this is how
16:48
Speaker 2: I feel, and this is what I'm going to do.
16:51
Speaker 2: Because it's a big thing to go home to your
16:54
Speaker 2: housemates at university, to go home to your parents and
16:57
Speaker 2: kind of say, hey, you know what, I'm going to
16:59
Speaker 2: drop out a universe. I love you guys, but I'm
17:01
Speaker 2: going to head off to India and I'm going to
17:03
Speaker 2: become a monk. Not everyone you can probably imagine. Not
17:07
Speaker 2: everyone's like super jazz by that idea. My dad maybe
17:10
Speaker 2: thought I joined a cult. My friends at university kind
17:14
Speaker 2: of felt a bit not let down. But you know why,
17:17
Speaker 2: was I kind of leaving like halfway through. So it
17:20
Speaker 2: took a degree of sort of confidence.
17:23
Speaker 1: If you liked to do that at the time. Were
17:26
Speaker 1: you contemplating any other options?
17:30
Speaker 2: Not really?
17:31
Speaker 1: No, No, did you know anyone that had done this?
17:37
Speaker 2: No? I did have. I had a at the time
17:40
Speaker 2: I was going out with this girl at college university,
17:44
Speaker 2: and she was really into kind of Buddhism and meditation
17:48
Speaker 2: and stuff, and she'd been reading a lot of books
17:51
Speaker 2: and she was always kind of telling me, you know,
17:54
Speaker 2: how inspiring it was these monks, these nuns that kind
17:57
Speaker 2: of sit there and they meditate all day. And yeah,
18:01
Speaker 2: I wouldn't say I thought she was crazy, but you know,
18:03
Speaker 2: I was kind of like at the time, I was like,
18:05
Speaker 2: I'm not sure I'm quite there. And then but at
18:08
Speaker 2: some level that was all kind of going in and
18:11
Speaker 2: when it came to it, it was probably the one
18:14
Speaker 2: of the easiest decisions. Is a big decision, but it's
18:17
Speaker 2: probably one of the easiest decisions I've ever made.
18:19
Speaker 1: It felt right.
18:21
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's that you know, when you can't call it,
18:25
Speaker 2: you got your heart but that are calling. But when
18:28
Speaker 2: you know something so that with such a sense of purpose, yeah,
18:34
Speaker 2: purpose that it doesn't matter what other thoughts are there,
18:38
Speaker 2: whether its doubts or there's anxiety or anything, you just
18:41
Speaker 2: kind of know. I honestly felt in that moment like
18:44
Speaker 2: I had no other choice in my life.
18:46
Speaker 1: And that can be applicable to a lot of different
18:49
Speaker 1: things in life. Right. Absolutely, sometimes you just know what
18:52
Speaker 1: you got to do, You got to follow you got
18:54
Speaker 1: you gotta trust what's going on inside.
18:56
Speaker 2: I would say, not just sometimes. You know, I'm a
18:59
Speaker 2: big believer that we create a lot of noise in
19:02
Speaker 2: our in our thinking mind, and often our thinking mind obscure.
19:06
Speaker 2: Is that feeling, that sense, that connection with our intuition.
19:10
Speaker 2: Our intuition is pretty good. You know. The more time
19:13
Speaker 2: we can spend with that sense, generally, the more smoothly
19:18
Speaker 2: kind of life goes. So as much as possible, you know,
19:21
Speaker 2: I try to step out of my thinking mind and
19:23
Speaker 2: be kind of present with what he called intuition or
19:27
Speaker 2: quiet confidence, that that feeling where you kind of you
19:30
Speaker 2: just know it's the right thing to do.
19:32
Speaker 1: I think what's really impressive is not just that you
19:35
Speaker 1: were so confident in following that inner voice, but also
19:40
Speaker 1: that you were able to articulate and express how you
19:44
Speaker 1: felt at that time. With menah, I feel like they
19:47
Speaker 1: have a difficult time expressing how they feel.
19:49
Speaker 2: Yeah, look, don't get me wrong. You know I definitely
19:52
Speaker 2: didn't have it sort of completely down at that time,
19:56
Speaker 2: and I really struggled with with certain friends, so friends
19:59
Speaker 2: that i'd kind of grown up with, you know, all
20:02
Speaker 2: they kind of knew of me as a friend was
20:06
Speaker 2: you know, I played rugby with them, I'd go down
20:08
Speaker 2: a pub with them and drink, you know, And so
20:10
Speaker 2: we didn't really kind of have a small town We
20:13
Speaker 2: didn't have that kind of it is a very different
20:15
Speaker 2: times a long time ago. We didn't have that kind
20:18
Speaker 2: of relationship where we could, you know, discuss things in
20:22
Speaker 2: that way. So I had to I won't say be creative,
20:25
Speaker 2: but I definitely had to find routes in with each
20:29
Speaker 2: of those people. And some of them understood it, and
20:32
Speaker 2: some of them didn't. Those who didn't over time, I
20:35
Speaker 2: think have watched the journey and now kind of yeah,
20:39
Speaker 2: maybe maybe a little more accepting of how it's gone.
20:43
Speaker 1: I can only imagine the people that looked at you
20:45
Speaker 1: then like you were crazy, and now they see how
20:47
Speaker 1: wildly popular this thing that you've created out of all
20:51
Speaker 1: of this experience has become.
20:54
Speaker 2: Yeah, but they also kind of those people I think
20:57
Speaker 2: that's really important in life to whether it's family or
21:00
Speaker 2: or friends, you know, those are also the people that
21:03
Speaker 2: have known me my entire life, and they wouldn't care
21:06
Speaker 2: like how popular it became. They wouldn't kind of care
21:10
Speaker 2: about any of that stuff. I'm still just Andy or
21:12
Speaker 2: PUDs as they call me. Back home. Yeah, I really
21:16
Speaker 2: I love going back into those environments where we kind
21:20
Speaker 2: of we reconnect, you know, when the old school friends
21:23
Speaker 2: and stuff. There's something there which is really special. I
21:27
Speaker 2: think it's not that you necessarily have so much in common.
21:31
Speaker 2: I remember coming back from the monastery and meeting up
21:34
Speaker 2: with them all and I realized that, oh wow, we've
21:37
Speaker 2: been doing really different things for the last ten years.
21:39
Speaker 2: We might not have loads to chat about, but there's
21:41
Speaker 2: always that kind of connection there from when you grow up.
21:43
Speaker 1: So talk to me about the ten year period between
21:45
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety four and two thousand and four. Yeah, like
21:48
Speaker 1: I highlight real sure.
21:50
Speaker 2: The first thing to say is that I wasn't a
21:52
Speaker 2: monk the entire time. You don't just go and knock
21:55
Speaker 2: on the door and say can I become a monk
21:56
Speaker 2: now please? And they give you the ropes you kind
21:59
Speaker 2: of got. No, yea, I earned them. But you know,
22:01
Speaker 2: there is a there's a process you go through. You
22:03
Speaker 2: train as a layperson, then as a novice monk, and
22:06
Speaker 2: then you take full ordination as a as a Buddhist monk.
22:10
Speaker 2: I started in the Burmese school of meditation sort of
22:15
Speaker 2: Southeast Asia, which is it looks quite austere. So for
22:19
Speaker 2: people not that familiar with the different traditions of Buddhism,
22:22
Speaker 2: it's probably quite a lot of people. There's the monks
22:27
Speaker 2: with the kind of like orangey kind of robes you know,
22:30
Speaker 2: you might see in Thailand and Lao and Vietnam, and yeah,
22:34
Speaker 2: sort of shrinker that part of the world. It's fairly
22:37
Speaker 2: kind of fairly austere, and it was brilliant in terms
22:41
Speaker 2: of creating a foundation. But for me, I felt that
22:44
Speaker 2: I was still although I had sort of learned the
22:49
Speaker 2: skill of meditation to some degree and I had a
22:52
Speaker 2: sense of greatest center piece, there was some element that
22:57
Speaker 2: still felt like it was kind of missing in some way.
23:00
Speaker 2: And I was very fortunate to meet a Tibetan rim
23:02
Speaker 2: she Tibetan lama, and I was so kind of struck
23:06
Speaker 2: by his warmth, by his kindness, his compassion is understanding
23:12
Speaker 2: that I kind of I made the choice to to
23:15
Speaker 2: sort of follow that tradition, and so I went off
23:21
Speaker 2: to India and I became I became a Tibetan Buddhist,
23:24
Speaker 2: Tibetan Buddhist monk, and there was a lot more focus
23:28
Speaker 2: on I felt on compassion. It was really like the
23:32
Speaker 2: starting point that we don't meditate for ourselves. We meditate
23:35
Speaker 2: for the benefit of others. None of us live in
23:37
Speaker 2: isolation in the world, and if our starting point is
23:39
Speaker 2: one of altruism, empathy, and compassion, then we will naturally
23:43
Speaker 2: find happiness ourselves for ourselves on that journey. So for me,
23:48
Speaker 2: that was kind of what really resonated and what ultimately
23:52
Speaker 2: allowed me to find that sort of peace of mind
23:54
Speaker 2: that I was looking for.
23:55
Speaker 1: Where along the journey do you kind of decide that
23:59
Speaker 1: you're good, like I'm good being here, It's time for
24:02
Speaker 1: me to get back to maybe what I was doing before,
24:05
Speaker 1: or did you know while you were over there how
24:08
Speaker 1: you saw this integrating back into some sort of more normal.
24:11
Speaker 2: Reasons I love to be I'd love to tell you
24:14
Speaker 2: that I had that kind of insight, but I didn't,
24:17
Speaker 2: you know I it. In fact, three years before I
24:20
Speaker 2: kind of finished my training, I was still at a
24:23
Speaker 2: stage where I kind of thought I'd probably be a
24:25
Speaker 2: month for the rest of my life, and I was
24:27
Speaker 2: open to that idea. So I asked my teacher and
24:30
Speaker 2: I said, you know, I was telling I was about
24:33
Speaker 2: to take another commitment. I think at the time it
24:35
Speaker 2: was like one years, three years, or life, you know,
24:38
Speaker 2: And I said, I I feel like I want to
24:41
Speaker 2: do it for life, but I trust kind of your
24:43
Speaker 2: judgment more than more than mine. So I'd like you
24:46
Speaker 2: to decide for me. If you say life, I'd do
24:47
Speaker 2: it for life.
24:49
Speaker 1: And by this idea of just putting your entire life
24:54
Speaker 1: on nobody else's hands, I mean, it's not like renewing
24:57
Speaker 1: like your Netflix.
24:58
Speaker 2: Subscribe as you say it, like, yeah, I realized it
25:01
Speaker 2: could sound quite quite strange, but I had a huge
25:04
Speaker 2: amount of trust based on experience kind of with this teacher,
25:09
Speaker 2: and so I handed it over to it and he said, well,
25:11
Speaker 2: I think, you know, let's do like another three years
25:13
Speaker 2: and sort of see see how it goes. And eventually
25:18
Speaker 2: the monastery had me go and teach meditation at a
25:21
Speaker 2: meditation center in Moscow and Russia. And whilst I was
25:25
Speaker 2: living there, I that was when I would say it
25:28
Speaker 2: was the beginning of starting to find a different language,
25:31
Speaker 2: because I was essentially I was a monk but living
25:33
Speaker 2: in a city, so I was kind of living the
25:36
Speaker 2: life that everyone else was living. But at the same
25:39
Speaker 2: time somewhat separate from it, and I could see that
25:42
Speaker 2: the way I was dressed and everything else kind of
25:44
Speaker 2: that was definitely a barrier and an obstacle. And people
25:47
Speaker 2: coming along to the meditation center, there was regular people.
25:50
Speaker 2: They'd come along after work and stuff, and so it
25:53
Speaker 2: was kind of realizing that there was an opportunity to
25:57
Speaker 2: present this, as I say, in a way that hadn't
25:59
Speaker 2: been presented before, maybe without the ropes. And finally a
26:03
Speaker 2: guy came in and said, look, I'd love you to
26:05
Speaker 2: come and work with my execs at work. They're really
26:07
Speaker 2: stressed out, but you can't come dressed like that. And
26:11
Speaker 2: that got me thinking, you know, do I want to
26:14
Speaker 2: be a monk or do I want to teach meditation?
26:16
Speaker 2: I could do both, but there was an opportunity to
26:19
Speaker 2: kind of teach meditation in a new way. So that
26:22
Speaker 2: was how that's how it began.
26:24
Speaker 1: So, I mean, obviously, the amount of lessons you learned
26:28
Speaker 1: during that time are limitless. If you had to kind
26:34
Speaker 1: of articulate one or two of the biggest takeaways from
26:39
Speaker 1: that ten year period, I mean, and there's going to
26:41
Speaker 1: be so many more takeaways in our conversation over the
26:44
Speaker 1: next little bit. But do you have kind of something
26:47
Speaker 1: that you go back to regularly from that time in
26:50
Speaker 1: your life.
26:51
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, as much as possible, I just try
26:53
Speaker 2: and you know, kind of be present now and I
26:56
Speaker 2: don't really kind of spend a lot of time thinking
26:58
Speaker 2: about the past and kind of what I did in
27:01
Speaker 2: the past. It was an incredibly special time. I feel
27:04
Speaker 2: very fortunate to have done it. I would never change anything,
27:07
Speaker 2: you know, it was really valuable time. I think the
27:12
Speaker 2: most people, probably people are spoken to imagine that when
27:15
Speaker 2: you go away to a monastery or a nunnery, whatever
27:17
Speaker 2: it might be, you're going to sit there on a
27:21
Speaker 2: mountaintop completely blissed out, kind of you know, your mind's
27:23
Speaker 2: going to acquire, and you get that a little bit
27:26
Speaker 2: to begin with. It's like the honeymoon phase. And then
27:31
Speaker 2: there's the realization that, oh wow, like I have to
27:34
Speaker 2: sit with my mind every day and there's no distraction.
27:38
Speaker 2: So I think the greatest kind of lesson that it
27:41
Speaker 2: taught me was to be willing to be with my
27:44
Speaker 2: mind as it is. So typically we go through life
27:47
Speaker 2: and we're chasing after pleasant thoughts and we're trying to
27:49
Speaker 2: get away from unpleasant thoughts. When you do a lot
27:51
Speaker 2: of meditation, there's no choice but to sit with the
27:54
Speaker 2: mind as it is, and you start to see that actually,
27:56
Speaker 2: if you don't get too involved with all that thinking,
27:59
Speaker 2: there's actually those thoughts come and go.
28:01
Speaker 1: I feel like I mean, I feel like, though, I've
28:03
Speaker 1: got to say it that. Don't you think at the
28:05
Speaker 1: beginning making this decision, after those truly difficult moddle moments
28:10
Speaker 1: as we call them in this room, was you trying
28:13
Speaker 1: to get away from some unpleasant thoughts.
28:15
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's almost inevitable. I don't think there's
28:19
Speaker 2: any other way. In fact, if you speak to most
28:22
Speaker 2: people who go down that route, it's the realization of
28:26
Speaker 2: suffering in life that's led them on that journey. So,
28:30
Speaker 2: but that turns it into something really powerful, you know.
28:33
Speaker 2: So now when I look back at those things, of course,
28:35
Speaker 2: it's always it's heartbreaking to think of people that lost
28:40
Speaker 2: and the impact that it had on their families and
28:42
Speaker 2: our family and everything else. But I see it in
28:45
Speaker 2: a very different way now. You know, it had such
28:48
Speaker 2: a positive impact on my own life and on my
28:51
Speaker 2: own journey, and so yeah, I think often we look
28:56
Speaker 2: back at things and see them as bad things, failures
29:01
Speaker 2: or difficulties, but then actually when we kind of see
29:04
Speaker 2: how those things play out, very often they have a
29:08
Speaker 2: really kind of positive impact. It the same way. I
29:10
Speaker 2: was chatting with someone the other day and we were
29:11
Speaker 2: talking about a few years back eye cancer, and they
29:14
Speaker 2: were saying, kind of would you want that to have
29:17
Speaker 2: played out kind of differently? And I was like, actually, no,
29:21
Speaker 2: it was such a positive experience. I don't know how
29:24
Speaker 2: else to describe it. You know, it was one it
29:29
Speaker 2: was before we had children. I experienced some amazing time
29:32
Speaker 2: off with my wife and we had the best time,
29:36
Speaker 2: and it was difficult and it was challenging, but the
29:38
Speaker 2: meditation during that time kind of helped me so much
29:41
Speaker 2: and facing some of those bigger challenges in life. I
29:46
Speaker 2: think kind of just create this atmosphere of gratitude and
29:50
Speaker 2: appreciation and help to kind of redefine what our purpose
29:56
Speaker 2: and meaning is in life, and we can choose kind
29:59
Speaker 2: of how we relate to those things and what we
30:01
Speaker 2: do with them.
30:02
Speaker 1: What a perspective to have. I think it's admirable and
30:05
Speaker 1: I think it's something that I can say that I
30:08
Speaker 1: myself definitely try to take a step back and look
30:11
Speaker 1: at the challenging times and the good times, both with
30:14
Speaker 1: their equal amount of purpose.
30:17
Speaker 2: Yeah.
30:17
Speaker 1: I think it takes a strong person, especially in the
30:20
Speaker 1: challenging times, to eventually be able to look back and
30:24
Speaker 1: take the lessons from it. Things that we could see
30:27
Speaker 1: as failures are often the things that teach us the most.
30:30
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely. And I think the temptation some people kind
30:34
Speaker 2: of will inevitably kind of say I don't feel I
30:38
Speaker 2: can do that, or it's too difficult, it's too painful.
30:41
Speaker 2: The thing that meditation I find so helpful is that
30:44
Speaker 2: it allows us to let go of that storyline, so
30:47
Speaker 2: we might kind of think, oh, I'm not that kind
30:49
Speaker 2: of person I could never do Okay, that's just a thought,
30:53
Speaker 2: see the thought, let it go, and then all of
30:56
Speaker 2: a sudden, you're not that kind of person anyway. Like
30:58
Speaker 2: you can just we all have the ability to be present,
31:03
Speaker 2: to find a quiet confidence within ourselves, to listen to
31:06
Speaker 2: our intuition, and to lead a life that we would
31:09
Speaker 2: like to live. It's just that we get so caught
31:11
Speaker 2: up in the thinking mind that we forget that. Sometimes.
31:14
Speaker 1: I think that it's so funny. We get these ideas
31:17
Speaker 1: about ourselves that we believe to be facts. So it's
31:20
Speaker 1: like I'll look at you and I'll be like, I
31:22
Speaker 1: have brown hair and I'm scared of heights. But the
31:26
Speaker 1: reality is that I have brown hair and I feel
31:29
Speaker 1: as though I'm scared of heights. Yeah, that doesn't mean,
31:33
Speaker 1: you know, it's bigger than that. It's bigger than that.
31:37
Speaker 2: I work with people all the time kind of who
31:39
Speaker 2: will say they're, you know, they're feeling a certain kind
31:43
Speaker 2: of way about themselves, and I'm this kind of person.
31:46
Speaker 2: And then when they actually sort of sit and we
31:49
Speaker 2: chat kind of a few weeks later, a few months later,
31:52
Speaker 2: they realize that actually that storyline in their mind that
31:54
Speaker 2: they've been carrying around often for years and years, sometimes
31:57
Speaker 2: even decades, that's an old storyline. It has no relevance
32:02
Speaker 2: or truth to their life as they know it right now.
32:05
Speaker 2: And that's kind of for me, that's you know, people
32:09
Speaker 2: think about enlightenment kind of a big, kind of massive
32:12
Speaker 2: For me, like, that's kind of like enlightenment in life.
32:16
Speaker 2: It's the realization that we're free, and so if we
32:20
Speaker 2: can use meditation to kind of free ourselves from the
32:23
Speaker 2: storylines of our mind, to not be overwhelmed, to not
32:25
Speaker 2: be kind of to live this life of confusion, then
32:28
Speaker 2: all of a sudden, life starts to look and feel
32:32
Speaker 2: very very different.
32:43
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33:46
Speaker 1: I'm sitting here with Andy, the voice of Headspace. I
33:49
Speaker 1: love that I love that title co founder and the
33:52
Speaker 1: voice of that space. I'm still like having an out
33:55
Speaker 1: of body experience in this room. What I think that
33:59
Speaker 1: now I'm most in just to know is about how
34:01
Speaker 1: the gears shift, because I know that in twenty ten
34:04
Speaker 1: when Headspace first launched and launched as an events company. Yeah,
34:08
Speaker 1: so talk to me about that.
34:10
Speaker 2: Yeah. So I was working when I went back to
34:13
Speaker 2: the UK from Asia. I started working in sort of
34:16
Speaker 2: private practice. I found a doctor who was very progressive
34:19
Speaker 2: interested in mindfulness. Mindfulness was gus beginning to enter sort
34:22
Speaker 2: of mainstream medicine a long time ago, and through that
34:27
Speaker 2: I met I met now my very dear friend and
34:31
Speaker 2: co founder, Rich, and we started talking kind of about
34:34
Speaker 2: what it would look like to take it outside of
34:38
Speaker 2: a room working one to one with people and into
34:41
Speaker 2: a sort of to a bigger audience if you like.
34:44
Speaker 2: And Rich suggested the very first time we met, he said,
34:48
Speaker 2: we should just do the Nike Plus of meditation. Nike
34:50
Speaker 2: Plus had only come out, I think about six months before.
34:54
Speaker 2: Apps had only come out twelve months before. I had
34:57
Speaker 2: no idea what an app was. I'd no idea what
34:58
Speaker 2: Nike Plus was. And I said to Rich, yeah, I
35:02
Speaker 2: don't think you can do meditation like digitally. I think
35:06
Speaker 2: you kind of have to be in the room, you know.
35:09
Speaker 2: So Rich, I mean love him. He was so kind
35:13
Speaker 2: of considerate and respectful. He was kind of like, oh okay, yeah,
35:17
Speaker 2: let's let's do that. Let's do events then instead. So
35:19
Speaker 2: I wrote a few books and we did events and
35:23
Speaker 2: that kind of got us. That got us going until
35:26
Speaker 2: we were probably kind of two years into that, and
35:28
Speaker 2: people who were coming to the thing. I think this
35:30
Speaker 2: happens really often. They came along and said, Wow, I
35:32
Speaker 2: feel really inspired, But what do I do when I
35:34
Speaker 2: go home? And this happens a lot. You know, people
35:37
Speaker 2: will go and retreat or they do New Year things
35:39
Speaker 2: and it's like this big moment and then what happens
35:42
Speaker 2: to the rest of the time. And Rich said, well,
35:44
Speaker 2: maybe you could just try like recording something and they
35:47
Speaker 2: could take it home with them. So we did, and
35:49
Speaker 2: people liked it, and then people wanted more. So we
35:52
Speaker 2: made an app.
35:53
Speaker 1: Did the two of you ever think that the both
35:55
Speaker 1: of you should talk on the app? No, it was
35:58
Speaker 1: always just.
35:58
Speaker 2: You, Yeah, because it would have been we're like, you know,
36:00
Speaker 2: one of our one of our sort of anchors or
36:03
Speaker 2: one of our values if you like, is is authenticity?
36:06
Speaker 2: And Rich didn't train in meditation. He's I have to say,
36:11
Speaker 2: since that day I met him, just over ten years ago,
36:14
Speaker 2: he's never missed a day of meditation and he meditates
36:16
Speaker 2: for an hour every single day. So I mean he's
36:18
Speaker 2: he's committed as a as a student, there's no doubt.
36:22
Speaker 2: But his background was in in creative development and sort
36:25
Speaker 2: of marketing. So what Rich could bring to it was
36:28
Speaker 2: this amazing lens of like, you know, how should this look?
36:33
Speaker 2: How should it feel? Kind of what what would our
36:36
Speaker 2: friends like? What would get our friends to actually give?
36:40
Speaker 2: What would it take to get our friends to actually
36:42
Speaker 2: try meditation? Because meditation is in the experience. It's not
36:45
Speaker 2: in the hearing about it. It's not about the reading
36:47
Speaker 2: about it. It's in actually sitting down and doing it.
36:50
Speaker 1: Sidestep, Yeah, how long do you meditate every day?
36:54
Speaker 2: He varies. So I have a fixed practice that so
36:59
Speaker 2: when you're at the monastery, depending on what route you go,
37:01
Speaker 2: I took quite a medicine if route in the monastery,
37:05
Speaker 2: So I made certain commitments are for life and regardless
37:09
Speaker 2: of whether you're a monk or not, So I still
37:10
Speaker 2: do those kind of every single day, and then if
37:13
Speaker 2: I have more time, maybe at lunchtime, then I'll do some.
37:16
Speaker 1: Then as well, you gave me no time announce and
37:19
Speaker 1: all of that.
37:19
Speaker 2: Yeah, and people always want to know, and it's not
37:22
Speaker 2: really about the length of title. I don't like people
37:25
Speaker 2: getting hung up on the time because if I say,
37:29
Speaker 2: you know a certain amount, then maybe people feel like
37:32
Speaker 2: they're not doing enough or maybe they're doing too much.
37:34
Speaker 2: So we know kind of from all the research that's
37:39
Speaker 2: been done, it's not really about duration. It's about it's
37:43
Speaker 2: a quality rather than quantity. So when you're starting out,
37:46
Speaker 2: three minutes is enough, five minutes is enough, ten minutes
37:49
Speaker 2: is enough. Don't worry too much about what the old
37:51
Speaker 2: bolt bloke who when it's sat in the monastery for
37:53
Speaker 2: many many years kind of does because it's kind of
37:55
Speaker 2: not relevant. So what's relevant for you in this moment
37:59
Speaker 2: right now?
38:00
Speaker 1: And I think it's interesting. I was looking at some
38:02
Speaker 1: of the statistics on headspace, and obviously we'll keep going
38:05
Speaker 1: with this story, but I'll routell some of them off.
38:07
Speaker 1: Three weeks of headspace results in a twenty three percent
38:10
Speaker 1: increase in compassion. It also resulted in these in these
38:14
Speaker 1: research studies fifty seven percent decrease in aggression. Headspace also
38:19
Speaker 1: can reduce stress levels and ten days and then four
38:23
Speaker 1: weeks of headspace improves focus by fourteen percent. So I mean,
38:28
Speaker 1: you guys were building something that was really impacting people.
38:33
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, our our our third employee, our second
38:38
Speaker 2: paid employee, was a scientist, and we decided really early
38:43
Speaker 2: on that if this was going to be credible, if
38:46
Speaker 2: we were going to take this where we wanted to
38:48
Speaker 2: take it, it was really important to establish it as
38:52
Speaker 2: you know, as scientifically validated kind of route to health
38:58
Speaker 2: and health and happiness. So over time we've created a
39:03
Speaker 2: whole kind of health team. We're currently working towards FDA
39:06
Speaker 2: regulation here in with a separate health product here in
39:09
Speaker 2: the US, and we work with the NHS in the UK.
39:13
Speaker 2: And I think it's those kinds of studies have really
39:17
Speaker 2: changed the way in which people view meditation. Back when
39:23
Speaker 2: I was in the monastery, there was no real way
39:26
Speaker 2: of kind of knowing, well, it's just making any difference
39:29
Speaker 2: or am I imagining it? So now you know, you
39:31
Speaker 2: can stick someone in an MRI machine, a functional MRI machine,
39:35
Speaker 2: and actually kind of see what's happening to the brain
39:38
Speaker 2: over a period of time, and we know that it's
39:41
Speaker 2: not just a psychological phenomena, it's a physiological one where
39:45
Speaker 2: the brain itself changes shape. It gets thicker and stronger
39:49
Speaker 2: in the parts where we want it to be thicker
39:51
Speaker 2: and stronger as we meditate.
39:53
Speaker 1: Okay, so you come to this realization that events just
39:56
Speaker 1: aren't going to cut it. Your back on this kind
39:58
Speaker 1: of thought process that like maybe there's a room for
40:02
Speaker 1: a Nike plusum meditation. Yeah, how does how do you
40:06
Speaker 1: pull the trigger?
40:07
Speaker 2: So we were you know, events is interesting. It's I
40:13
Speaker 2: don't think we would have had the success we've had
40:15
Speaker 2: with the app unless we've done events first. The events
40:18
Speaker 2: taught us everything that we needed to know for the app.
40:22
Speaker 2: We were in a room with real time, real life
40:26
Speaker 2: kind of people understanding kind of what was the right
40:29
Speaker 2: way to talk about it, what exercises work, what didn't.
40:32
Speaker 2: We were getting immediate feedback. So as that kind of
40:35
Speaker 2: built up, I think there was just a sense of
40:38
Speaker 2: we have to do this, and we got offered the
40:41
Speaker 2: opportunity to put on the front page. And if you're
40:45
Speaker 2: familiar with the Guardian newspaper Observer in the UK, so
40:49
Speaker 2: it's one of the it's one of the biggest ones,
40:51
Speaker 2: and the biggest month or the biggest week of the
40:54
Speaker 2: year is early in January kind of you know, when
40:56
Speaker 2: everyone gets excited about what they're going to do. And
40:59
Speaker 2: they asked us to write a booklet so on how
41:02
Speaker 2: to learn meditation, and there's a shoot. We were still
41:06
Speaker 2: a really kind of small small company. They were going
41:08
Speaker 2: to pay for it, and they were going to put
41:10
Speaker 2: it on the front of every single newspaper, so like
41:13
Speaker 2: millions of these kind of going out around the country.
41:16
Speaker 2: And we thought about the opportunity and we were like, well,
41:20
Speaker 2: imagine if on the back page we could say and
41:23
Speaker 2: register and subscribe with headspace and it was free, you know,
41:29
Speaker 2: which for a company starting out there were only a
41:31
Speaker 2: couple of us in the company, it was massive, so
41:35
Speaker 2: that I think kind of encouraged us to pull the trigger.
41:38
Speaker 2: And yeah, it kind of worked out.
41:41
Speaker 1: It's like what they say, it's start before you're ready.
41:44
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so, and we did. We really from that.
41:46
Speaker 2: I think because Richard come from marketing and working with
41:49
Speaker 2: big brands, he really understood kind of how those could help.
41:53
Speaker 2: I think there were only three of us in the company,
41:55
Speaker 2: was rich and I in one unpaid intern when we
41:59
Speaker 2: went to see Virgin Atlantic and say, hey, guys, you know,
42:03
Speaker 2: what are people going to do when they fly across
42:06
Speaker 2: you know, let's put some meditation on your TV channels.
42:09
Speaker 2: And they were up for it. And all of a sudden,
42:12
Speaker 2: you kind of get this leap. It's not just more
42:15
Speaker 2: people becoming aware of the brand. It's that big brand
42:18
Speaker 2: that people trust, kind of giving it their standard approval
42:21
Speaker 2: and giving it credibility. So we've we've partnered a lot
42:24
Speaker 2: as as we've gone on the journey.
42:26
Speaker 1: So you have this big opportunity with the newspaper. Yeah,
42:31
Speaker 1: and people are signing up everywhere. Yeah, and when do
42:35
Speaker 1: these two guys in the UK decide that they need
42:38
Speaker 1: to come to the US.
42:40
Speaker 2: Yeah, So off the back, I reckon we're probably in
42:43
Speaker 2: the year or year and a half afterwards. You know,
42:46
Speaker 2: we probably grew to a team of about twenty in
42:50
Speaker 2: the UK and we started to think about where we
42:53
Speaker 2: could be best set for success. And I do think
42:57
Speaker 2: the US is so forward thinking in terms ofrepreneurship, in
43:00
Speaker 2: terms of investment, and on the West Coast definitely kind
43:04
Speaker 2: of towards kind of health and well being. There's a
43:06
Speaker 2: there's a leaning towards that. We were particularly interested in
43:10
Speaker 2: finding an environment where there was a passion for health,
43:14
Speaker 2: where there was strong technology, strong creative and strong entertainment. Ultimately,
43:19
Speaker 2: we wanted to be this kind of content media platform
43:22
Speaker 2: within the health space, and and l a kind of
43:24
Speaker 2: ticked a lot of those boxes. We also love to surf,
43:27
Speaker 2: and we had a dream of getting up every morning
43:30
Speaker 2: and surfing before we went to work a bad way
43:35
Speaker 2: for a couple of years until to our kids. But
43:38
Speaker 2: I think there was there were lots of different reasons.
43:40
Speaker 2: But professionally, yeah, it was a route to investment, and
43:43
Speaker 2: it was a route to getting some of the very
43:47
Speaker 2: best talent in the world to join.
43:49
Speaker 1: The team, for sure. So your headquarters now are in
43:52
Speaker 1: Santa Monica. I have been. I went when I was
43:57
Speaker 1: there earlier this year running around LA recording a ton
44:00
Speaker 1: of hurdle podcasts. But when I was there, I loved
44:04
Speaker 1: how like wide open and air, and I think when
44:07
Speaker 1: I was there it was before. Now your headquarters have
44:09
Speaker 1: expanded even more. Yeah, it's a big it's a bigger
44:12
Speaker 1: operation on the size.
44:14
Speaker 2: Of that now. So there's a good few hundred people
44:16
Speaker 2: now and Santa Monica we have an SF kind of
44:20
Speaker 2: hub which is more engineering and B to B and
44:24
Speaker 2: then the London the London crew and also kind of
44:27
Speaker 2: a small presence in New York.
44:28
Speaker 1: When did you realize after making the jump to the
44:31
Speaker 1: US that, like you were on this projectory to be
44:35
Speaker 1: I mean what it is now? I mean again, we're
44:37
Speaker 1: talking thirty million members and one million paying subscribers.
44:40
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it's grown a bit since then as well.
44:46
Speaker 2: I think too. I would say, if I had to
44:48
Speaker 2: kind of, you know, put a pin in the matter,
44:50
Speaker 2: I would say it's probably it's probably twenty fourteen we
44:55
Speaker 2: launched the second version of Headspace. It was that, I said,
44:58
Speaker 2: it was a more kind of modular format. Apple kind
45:02
Speaker 2: of fell in love with what we were doing and
45:04
Speaker 2: gave us a lot of promotion, and we suddenly saw this.
45:08
Speaker 2: It just felt like new people were joining kind of
45:11
Speaker 2: all the time. We outgrew our place in Venice Beach
45:13
Speaker 2: really kind of quickly and moved to Santa Monica, and
45:17
Speaker 2: I'd say we went through a phase growing from maybe
45:19
Speaker 2: fifty to like one fifty or one eighty. It just
45:24
Speaker 2: seemed to happen in a period of months, right, And
45:27
Speaker 2: I remember just walking into the office thinking I don't
45:30
Speaker 2: know any of these people, like who are they? What
45:32
Speaker 2: are they doing here? And so, you know, I think
45:36
Speaker 2: operationally a lot of things changed. We became a lot
45:39
Speaker 2: more kind of efficient as an organization and started to
45:42
Speaker 2: hire people who were so much better and so much
45:46
Speaker 2: more experienced than we were in any of these things,
45:48
Speaker 2: and it was it was just a huge relief to
45:50
Speaker 2: be able to kind of hand over some of the
45:52
Speaker 2: things that we've been doing ourselves for a long time.
45:56
Speaker 1: It's insane, I mean to walk in in a period
45:59
Speaker 1: of months and that your team has just grown this exponentially. Yeah,
46:02
Speaker 1: did you feel like you were having a lot of
46:04
Speaker 1: those pinch me moments or did you ever feel like
46:07
Speaker 1: you needed to take a back step?
46:08
Speaker 2: And just it's interesting for both Rich and there have
46:14
Speaker 2: been a couple of moments. I've been a couple of
46:16
Speaker 2: big moments where we've both gone like, Wow, this is
46:20
Speaker 2: this is crazy. There have not necessarily been moments in
46:22
Speaker 2: the office. They've been I think more sort of cultural.
46:26
Speaker 2: So I ain't doing the Tonight Show and meditating with
46:29
Speaker 2: Jimmy Fallon and his audience and that for when we're
46:34
Speaker 2: in the UK. We always said, right at the very
46:37
Speaker 2: beginning kind of we would feel like we had moved
46:40
Speaker 2: the conversation on in meditation if one night we could
46:43
Speaker 2: be on a live chat show kind of doing a meditation,
46:47
Speaker 2: and that felt like a real kind of a real shift,
46:51
Speaker 2: a real move. And I think both both of us
46:53
Speaker 2: like wow, this is crazy and going to the White
46:55
Speaker 2: House and places like I think there have been a
46:57
Speaker 2: number of moments where we have kind of pinched us else.
47:01
Speaker 2: I think in terms of the both of us are
47:04
Speaker 2: so involved in the in the work. When you're involved
47:08
Speaker 2: in it, it's very hard to kind of have that
47:11
Speaker 2: perspective of stepping back and thinking, oh, this is this
47:14
Speaker 2: has really kind of grown. We're very Fortunately the other
47:16
Speaker 2: day we had Billum and ind the Gates come in
47:19
Speaker 2: so we do conversations at lunchtime, and they came in
47:22
Speaker 2: for a chat and a Q and A with a team,
47:24
Speaker 2: and I think that was another kind of moment of
47:26
Speaker 2: sort of stepping back and going, Wow, not only are they,
47:30
Speaker 2: you know, doing airspace, but they're kind of willing to
47:35
Speaker 2: spare the time to come and see what's going on here.
47:37
Speaker 2: And it was a testament to what the team's done.
47:40
Speaker 2: But it's also a testament to how the space has
47:42
Speaker 2: kind of moved on. Yeah, so there definitely are those
47:44
Speaker 2: those moments where I still kind of stop and reflect.
47:48
Speaker 2: That's awesome.
47:49
Speaker 1: There are a lot of different people that use headspace.
47:53
Speaker 1: I think that again, going back to those barriers of meditation,
47:58
Speaker 1: I think using an app makes meditating a lot easier
48:02
Speaker 1: for sure, for someone who doesn't really know how to
48:06
Speaker 1: begin or can't get past like what I feel like
48:08
Speaker 1: can be like that initial wall. What are some of
48:12
Speaker 1: the actionable tips that you offer them.
48:15
Speaker 2: So we're trying as much as possible to provide the
48:18
Speaker 2: information that people need. We talk about it internally as
48:22
Speaker 2: providing the most compelling invitation possible to actually try it.
48:27
Speaker 2: So for some people that's going to be the science.
48:29
Speaker 2: And it's kind of like, hey, you may not be
48:30
Speaker 2: interested in actually doing the meditation yourself yet, but here's
48:33
Speaker 2: what happens to people who meditate, and here's how impacts
48:36
Speaker 2: our health and wellbeing. With our partnerships, so with Nike,
48:39
Speaker 2: for example, we do Nike Running, We do loads of
48:43
Speaker 2: kind of collaboration stuff, and it's like, Okay, you may
48:45
Speaker 2: not want to sit down and meditate, but maybe you
48:47
Speaker 2: want to learn how to be mindful when you're out running.
48:50
Speaker 1: I love that. By the way, Oh yeah, that must
48:52
Speaker 1: have been that must have been a pinch me moment.
48:54
Speaker 1: I mean, you guys joked at the very beginning, I
48:56
Speaker 1: know we're going to be the Nike running and then
48:59
Speaker 1: Nike is like, hey, we should probably talk about collaborating.
49:02
Speaker 2: Yeah, and look, and that was I mean, that's really
49:05
Speaker 2: it's also really it's like thrilling when a big brand
49:08
Speaker 2: like that that you have a huge amount of respect
49:10
Speaker 2: for and you've always kind of like to have them
49:14
Speaker 2: come to you and say that would you like to
49:15
Speaker 2: do something? That's amazing. So we really kind of enjoyed that.
49:18
Speaker 2: So we're trying to provide these different routes in for people, yeah,
49:22
Speaker 2: who aren't necessarily ready for meditation just now. In fact,
49:25
Speaker 2: right now we all just recently we launched sleep within,
49:29
Speaker 2: which is a whole separate thing within within the app,
49:32
Speaker 2: and the idea being that, hey, look a lot of
49:35
Speaker 2: people will chant to meditation kind of if they want
49:38
Speaker 2: to sort of sleep a little bit better, but not
49:40
Speaker 2: everybody kind of wants to take that route, So other
49:42
Speaker 2: other exercises we can provide to help people kind of
49:45
Speaker 2: sleep and then maybe they become interested in meditation along
49:49
Speaker 2: the way. But I would say to anybody kind of look,
49:53
Speaker 2: you can download it for free. You could. The shortest
49:56
Speaker 2: meditation you can do when you first download it on
49:58
Speaker 2: take ten is I think it's three minutes. Like this
50:02
Speaker 2: is worth three minutes of your time just to experiment
50:05
Speaker 2: and see it as an experiment. Don't take my word
50:07
Speaker 2: for it that it makes a difference. I'm not promising
50:09
Speaker 2: that it will. But try it for yourself and see
50:12
Speaker 2: if you feel different after three minutes, and then maybe
50:15
Speaker 2: try it for just a couple more days, just to
50:18
Speaker 2: kind of be sure that you give it a give
50:20
Speaker 2: it a fair chance.
50:21
Speaker 1: And what about environmental factors?
50:24
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, that's that's real. I've lived in a
50:26
Speaker 2: lot of very big, busy, noisy cities in my life,
50:30
Speaker 2: and definitely some places are easier to meditate than others.
50:34
Speaker 2: But I would say, don't worry so much about external noise.
50:37
Speaker 2: The only thing that you really need is not to
50:41
Speaker 2: be disturbed, as in physically disturbed during the three five
50:45
Speaker 2: ten minutes that you're going to sit down and meditate,
50:48
Speaker 2: same time, same place. Definitely helps, but it's not not essential.
50:51
Speaker 2: As I say, Actually, during the exercise, I encourage people
50:55
Speaker 2: to use the noises. It might be your next door
50:58
Speaker 2: neighbors kind of a very loud music quote. It might
51:00
Speaker 2: be a construction drill going on out, So how can
51:03
Speaker 2: you bring that into the practice and make so it
51:05
Speaker 2: shouldn't be an obstacle. It's like how do you work?
51:08
Speaker 2: Meditation is very flexible, so it's like, how do you
51:11
Speaker 2: work within the conditions that you find yourself, rather than
51:14
Speaker 2: there's no point in be doing it here because it's
51:16
Speaker 2: not going to work. I need to head off to
51:17
Speaker 2: the MLAs you don't. You don't need to testify.
51:20
Speaker 1: I've done it on the subway. I think that's the
51:25
Speaker 1: ultimate test. A question I love to kind of ask
51:28
Speaker 1: as I wind down here is if you had the
51:32
Speaker 1: opportunity to offer that Andy, who was going through that
51:36
Speaker 1: really tough time after that car accident, some advice maybe
51:40
Speaker 1: looking back on the situation, now, yeah, what would you
51:44
Speaker 1: What would you say to him?
51:47
Speaker 2: You know, I wouldn't. I wouldn't. I wouldn't say anything.
51:52
Speaker 2: I wouldn't encourage myself at that time to do anything differently.
51:58
Speaker 2: You know, it's tempting to look back into kind of
52:00
Speaker 2: think if only I had known that, But if we
52:03
Speaker 2: had known that, then we would be on a different journey.
52:06
Speaker 2: And I'm really happy that I've lived the journey that
52:10
Speaker 2: I've lived, and that I'm on the journey that I'm on.
52:12
Speaker 2: I don't want it to be different, and so I
52:15
Speaker 2: wouldn't even want to go back and avoid those difficult times.
52:18
Speaker 2: I wouldn't want to find a way of getting out
52:21
Speaker 2: of that feeling of anxiety or depression or whatever it
52:23
Speaker 2: could be described at the time. Retrospectively, I'm really happy
52:27
Speaker 2: that happened because that was the journey. Like the journey
52:30
Speaker 2: isn't the perfect painted picture in the future that we
52:34
Speaker 2: dream of the journey, I would say, I would argue,
52:38
Speaker 2: that's not even that important. It's good that we have
52:40
Speaker 2: some direction in life, but the finished thing is not
52:43
Speaker 2: so important. The important thing is the journey, and the
52:46
Speaker 2: journey's rich. Sometimes it's beautiful, sometimes it's peaceful, sometimes it's ugly,
52:50
Speaker 2: and sometimes it's painful, and that's okay, that's the journey.
52:54
Speaker 2: I love that.
52:55
Speaker 1: I feel like the only way I know how to
52:58
Speaker 1: close out this session with you is to ask you
53:02
Speaker 1: if we could do like a two minute meditation.
53:04
Speaker 2: Sure we can.
53:05
Speaker 1: And the good news is that maybe someone who's never
53:08
Speaker 1: opened the Headspace app but loves hurdle.
53:10
Speaker 2: Yeah, is gonna, it is gonna.
53:13
Speaker 1: I'm gonna be comfortable here. It is gonna listen to
53:16
Speaker 1: this be like that. That was pretty dope, and then
53:17
Speaker 1: they're gonna open the headspace app. So I'm ready. I'm ready,
53:23
Speaker 1: all right.
53:24
Speaker 2: So obviously you know, I know you've I know you've
53:27
Speaker 2: used it before, but I'm gonna assume that people kind
53:29
Speaker 2: of listening haven't used it before.
53:31
Speaker 1: That's great.
53:31
Speaker 2: So just get yourself comfortable, doesn't matter too much kind
53:34
Speaker 2: of how how you're sat. You can even do it
53:37
Speaker 2: lying down if if you prefer, but just take a
53:39
Speaker 2: take a moment to get comfortable. And I always encourage
53:43
Speaker 2: people to start with their their eyes open rather than closed,
53:47
Speaker 2: just sort of taking in the space around You're not
53:49
Speaker 2: looking around, but just taking taking in the space around you.
53:54
Speaker 2: And then when you feel ready, just taking a big
53:56
Speaker 2: deep breath, breathing into the nose and ounce with the mouth,
54:03
Speaker 2: and if you haven't done already, as you breathe outs
54:06
Speaker 2: with the mouth, just gently closing the eyes and just
54:09
Speaker 2: taking a moment just to enjoy that feeling of having
54:13
Speaker 2: stopped having nothing to do. Nowhere to go, Just feeling
54:21
Speaker 2: the weight of your body against the seat or the
54:24
Speaker 2: floor beneath you, and as you pause, just checking in
54:31
Speaker 2: with your body, just noticing how the body feels. Sometimes
54:37
Speaker 2: you might feel a sense of heaviness or tiredness. Other
54:41
Speaker 2: times it might be lightness, excitement, And as you're becoming
54:50
Speaker 2: more aware of the body, just starting to notice how
54:53
Speaker 2: the breath in the body feels as well. So to
54:58
Speaker 2: begin with, just noticing where in the bodies. So for
55:00
Speaker 2: some people it's in the chest they feel that movement.
55:03
Speaker 2: Sometimes it's a diaphragm, sometimes it's a stomach. You'll put
55:08
Speaker 2: your hand on your stomach just to feel that if
55:10
Speaker 2: you find it easier. I don't have to do anything
55:17
Speaker 2: they have to breathe in any special way, don't have
55:20
Speaker 2: to try and stop thinking, Just allow thoughts to come
55:23
Speaker 2: and go. I'm just going to stay focused on that feeling,
55:28
Speaker 2: that rising and falling sensation of the breath just for
55:32
Speaker 2: the next ten or twenty seconds. To notice when you
55:51
Speaker 2: get distracted, letting go with that thought, just gently coming
55:56
Speaker 2: back to the breath again, and then just gently bringing
56:12
Speaker 2: the attention back to the body, back to that feeling
56:18
Speaker 2: of weight and contact. I'm starting to notice the sounds
56:26
Speaker 2: around you again, and when you're ready, just gently.
56:34
Speaker 1: It's the best. It's the best every time. Andy, thanks
56:38
Speaker 1: so much for sitting down with me, for having me.
56:41
Speaker 1: Please please take a moment and leave a quick review
56:45
Speaker 1: of the podcast by clicking the link with the description
56:48
Speaker 1: to this episode. We all face multiple hurdles in life.
56:52
Speaker 1: I want to hear about yours. Reach out to me
56:54
Speaker 1: at Emily at hurdle dot us. Connect with the podcast
56:58
Speaker 1: on Instagram and Twitter at Hurdle podcast. Andy. Where do
57:02
Speaker 1: they find you? Where do they find headspace? Give me
57:05
Speaker 1: the lowdown.
57:06
Speaker 2: We're at headspace dot com. You can download the app
57:09
Speaker 2: at iTunes or in the play store, and you know,
57:12
Speaker 2: you can find me on Twitter and Instagram and stuff.
57:15
Speaker 2: I'm not the biggest kind of social media as you
57:18
Speaker 2: would imagine, kind of as a as a former monk,
57:21
Speaker 2: but yeah, have a look.
57:23
Speaker 1: We're out there, We're around, We're out there. I'm at
57:26
Speaker 1: Emilia Body. Thanks again, Andy, I appreciate it. Another hurdle conquered.
57:32
Speaker 1: Catch you guys next time.