Latest / Ruining the Workplace Podcast / Ep 6 THE Mata Hari Ruins Espionage
Transcript
- Jaden: Hi Danielle, how are you? I'm Jaden and this is the Ruining the Workplace podcast. Danielle: and I'm Danielle. I am good, Jaden how are you? Jaden: I am good. We are back with another episode of the ruining the workplace podcast and is a sunny Thursday afternoon. It's gorgeous here where I am. How is it for you? Danielle: Hell yeah. It is gorgeous here as well. Well, I haven't been outside really, but the sun is out now. This morning it was very cloudy and breezy, but now it's very sunny. I've had people in my meetings all morning tell me, oh, it's so sunny and nice here. And I'm like, uh, will it, will it reach me? And it did. It looks like, I think it's like 45 degrees out, which is fine for this type of time of year, whatever. Jaden: Mm. Yay Mm, yeah. Yeah, it's gorgeous here and it's warmish. And I think that that's coming into an end though and rain is going to return in the next couple of days. boo. Anything or exciting or gripey going on in your world? ⁓ Girl. ⁓ Danielle: ⁓ Girl. No, I mean. Yes, I don't know. You know what, actually, this is not grapey. This is cute, I think. I had a Zoom meeting this morning with a junior UX designer who works at a different company. And ⁓ an old colleague of mine connected me to her. And she just wanted to learn more about, I guess, just a networking call. I don't know. Jaden: Mm-hmm. Danielle: I've never done one of these on. I've never been on the flip side of one of these. but I've done these types of calls before. It was just really nice and reassuring to like talk to somebody who. It just has so much energy to grow and expand. like, she asked really smart questions about different ways of like that we work at our consultancy. She's in a corporate role right now. and she asked a lot of really interesting. Jaden: Mm-hmm. Mmm. Danielle: questions about my path to the type of work that I do and how I've been able to shift or what indicated to me that I wanted to make shifts in the type of work that I was doing or am doing now. So it was like, it made me feel very old and also was just really energizing and heartwarming. I don't know, Like, ⁓ this was so fun. it was nice to be able to tell somebody like, Jaden: Good. Danielle: you know, as you're out looking for new opportunities and you know, if I'm connected to somebody that you want to like be connected to, just let me know. I'm happy to make an introduction. It's just like, it might amount to nothing, but it felt nice to be able to like be that for somebody else. So it was kind of fun. Jaden: Mm-hmm. Yay. I love that you actually, ⁓ the path you were talking about and like kind of making switches to kind of get where are. I love that you said that because I have a story for you about someone who starts in one way and ⁓ turns out to take another path. Danielle: Mm-hmm. No ⁓ my god. I love it. Jaden: Are you ready to hear that story? Should we jump in? All right. Well, curious. So on August 7, 1876, Margarita Gutrida, I think, Gertrude, this is a very tough one because it's Netherlands. Gertrida? Gutrida? I don't know. Margarita Zell, let's just call her that, was born. And now like, Danielle: I am so ready, let's dive in. I love this. love that you have a hard name to pronounce. Okay. Jaden: Who is this person? What? Who? Well, first of all, this is a person that shares my birthday. What a baddie. OK, but, mm-hmm. And I'm guessing that you've never heard of this person. Danielle: Stop. Already amazing. No, actually, I know her very well. No, I'm bullshitting. Jaden: Do you really? Wow. That would actually be so sick. You're like, ⁓ I know this story so well. Yeah, actually, I'm leading the episode. Danielle: That would be hilarious. Be like, ⁓ no, let me tell you. I'm gonna fact check everything you say. Now, I've never heard of Margarita, is that her name? Margarita? Are we supposed to roll our eyes? Or ours, our eyes, ⁓ my God. Stop. Seriously. Can I add an aside? Sorry. On the eye rolling subject. Jaden: Yes! ⁓ my god. Margarita? Zelle. Yeah. I roll my eyes daily, so yes. More like hourly. Anyway, yes. Danielle: It is one of the rudest things to me. And like, I do it when I'm like really just exasperated with somebody and I know that it's rude and I try to do it when they don't see it. it ⁓ like, when someone rolls their eyes at me, it infuriates me to no end. And my now six year old will roll his eyes, but he doesn't know that he's doing it. And he doesn't, I'm like, I'll be like, don't roll your eyes at me. And he'll go, how do you even roll your eyes? And he'll like, Jaden: Uh-huh. ⁓ yeah. As he rolls his eyes. Danielle: No, after, like he'll do it and then I'll be like, don't roll your eyes at me. And he's like, what do you mean? How do you even do that? And he'll, he'll make like bug eyes at me and like look side to side. And I'm like, does he not know? And I really, don't think he's bullshitting me. think he really doesn't know. Cause this has happened several times and I'm like, well, I'm not going to show you. Like if you truly don't know, I'm not going to encourage it. Right? Yeah. So we do not have to roll our eyes, but apparently we're rolling our Rs. Jaden: I'm not going to teach you this bad of it. Danielle: I love it. That was all, sorry. like, God, the topic of eye rolling. No, but for real though, so she's from the Netherlands, yeah? Jaden: OK, so yes, she was born August 7th, 1876 in the Netherlands. And you may know her by her stage name, ⁓ which is Hari. ⁓ Yeah. Well, always I've ⁓ obviously because share a birthday, I've always had like a ⁓ place in heart for Mata Hari. Danielle: Hmm. ⁓ I do know that name. ⁓ my God. Jaden: And I feel like things currently like world affairs and all the things that are happening kind of geopolitically, I thought this would be an interesting story to talk about. ⁓ So yeah, let's talk about Margaret de Zell, better known as Mata Hari. So as I mentioned, ⁓ she was born in the Netherlands in 1876. And she really did not have a terrible life. ⁓ Danielle: Yeah. Dive in. Jaden: know her early life was it was pretty great her parents were affluent ⁓ she grew up in the city of Luarden which is in the Netherlands and her father ⁓ did pretty well financially for you know a good while up until she was about 13 or so ⁓ so her father owned a hat factory and shop ⁓ he also invested in the oil industry and this like he made pretty good money off of that stuff. So he took really great care of his family, which included Margarita. Actually, know, I want to point something out here. Her family referred to ⁓ her as Magritte. So I'm going to call her Magritte until she makes the transition to Mata Hari. Yeah. So McGreets family included, obviously, her father, as well as her mother and three younger brothers. And they lived, as I mentioned, pretty comfortably. They dressed well. They went to exclusive good schools. yeah, they just, it's basically a pretty affluence upbringing. And then ⁓ it just all collapsed. It just went to hell. this was about when she was 13, and dad went bankrupt. ⁓ Which is... Yes, please. Yeah. Danielle: Do we know, sorry, can I interrupt? Do we know what happened? Jaden: Yes, so basically, the short answer is that her father, Adam Zill, it was a case of speculative investing gone wrong. So ⁓ think speculative investing is a big trend right now. I think it's getting all popular because people are figuring out that they can bet on war and all this. And it's very strange out there what I read about this stuff. You know what I mean? ⁓ Danielle: ⁓ I was gonna ask you, what does that mean exactly? Cause isn't all investing somewhat speculative? Jaden: Yeah, it's... I mean, yes, but this is more like speculative actions that like geopolitical parties, for example, are taking. this is like people are doing this across the internet now and on apps and shit. anyway, so the more interesting answer, though, is that he wasn't just like running a hat shop and, you know, minding his business. Danielle: Yeah, interesting. Jaden: He did very well because he was running this factory and also investing heavily in the oil industry during the period that is it's basically booming. So this is late 1800s. Cars are becoming a thing and oil is being produced faster and used more across the United States. so this made them enough money to have, mean, someone even call it like a flashy lifestyle. But the market turned. Danielle: ⁓ Jaden: and all those investments collapsed. And like a lot of people who, you know, end up riding the boom but don't get out in time, he just like lost everything. So there's some indication that maybe he was kind of like optimistic with how he was using his money before things went down. So he just didn't have a lot of cushion for the family. So once they were bankrupt, the family's social standing just plummeted. The marriage fell apart. So him and his wife ended up getting a divorce and the whole household just destabilized basically like overnight. So for Magritte, this wasn't like it wasn't just like, ⁓ dad had some bad business trouble. It was like, we're fucked. This is a very clear lesson that like status is temporary. Money is unstable and the floor can disappear very fast if you're not like controlling what's happening or the narrative around what's happening. So keep that pin that in your mind because that's going to come up again later Danielle: And are they still in the Netherlands at this? I'm assuming they live in. OK. Jaden: Yes, they are. so within a pretty short window, Magritte goes from relatively stable life to just completely unanchored. And the divorce, obviously, the parents, that's such a huge hit, hit socially. And we've talked about this on other episodes, too. It's like, whoa, divorce in the 1800s. Danielle: Yeah. Jaden: So at this point she is basically just getting shuffled around between relatives and goes to live with her her in a place called ⁓ Sneek I just think that's so cute and it is it's a super cute place in the Netherlands my gosh. Anyway so side there's like indication also here that she had a brief stint like training to be a teacher after a while so she's like okay cool I'm going to become a teacher Danielle: Hmm. ⁓ Jaden: I'm going to teach kindergarten. And so she's training at a school, but ⁓ some reason she gets like mixed up ⁓ the headmaster. ⁓ ⁓ starts to quote, flirt with her so conspicuously that she was removed ⁓ the institution by her godfather who was who she was living with. ⁓ Danielle: Mmm. ⁓ my gosh. She was like, you cannot be around that man anymore. Hilarious. Jaden: Yeah. So that did not go the way that she was hoping. And not long after that, she basically dipped and went to live in the Hague at her uncle's home. So at this point, Magritte has no career. She's got no money. And her reputation basically is already tarnished because ⁓ obviously the woman's fault that the man couldn't control himself. So yeah. ⁓ Danielle: Well, Bright, how dare she? What was she wearing? Jaden: Exactly. So when she turned 18, she knew she was like, I need to do something. she did something. And that was answering a newspaper ad from a Dutch colonial officer who was very old, but also looking for a wife. Yeah, it sure is. And yeah, so our guy, Mr. Rudolph McClode. Danielle: ⁓ wow, that's something alright. Jaden: He needed a distraction from his loneliness as a Dutch colonial army captain while he's living in the Dutch East Indies, right? So. Danielle: ⁓ my god, does she have to go to the East Indies? Jaden: ⁓ well, let me tell you, they get married. So she answers this ad, they quickly get married, and then she ships off to Indonesia. Yep. And ⁓ it's just like a side note here. this is an interesting place for her to end up because it really influences ⁓ aesthetic later on ⁓ how she kind of rolls out this character, Mata Hari. Yeah. So just like, Danielle: What? ⁓ yeah, I could see that. Jaden: the vibe, the movement, you know, she's just taking it in and being ⁓ inspired it. Danielle: Sure. She got there and she's like, I just love the colors and the outfits and the music. Right. Yeah. Okay. Jaden: Yes. Mm-hmm. And the energy. Yeah, all of it. yeah. for all intents and purposes, the marriage just basically enabled her to get back to that upper class life that she was used to living. And she and her new husband moved to Malang, which is on the east side of the island of Java in Indonesia. And they made this journey. By ship in May of 1897 ⁓ over the next couple of years they had two children ⁓ and both died very young. ⁓ I ⁓ and we'll get into what happened there because it's kind of that's kind of weird ⁓ But I'm gonna pause really quick. How's this landing with you any questions? Danielle: sad. I'm just like curious knowing that there's a flip coming. I'm like, ooh, girl, what, how does she, you know, cause I mean I cannot imagine answering a like want ad basically for a wife. Like that's insane to me, but I know you got it. You do what you got to do. And in those times there, she obviously couldn't be a teacher because the principals were like, Hey, you have limited options, you know? So like kudos for her for like taking advantage of what was available to her. But man, that's crazy. And like, Jaden: Mmm. Mm-hmm. Right. Danielle: The flip to what she becomes, yeah, I'm just so curious like how that happens because that is, I'm guessing such a departure. Jaden: Mm-hmm. Yeah, well, it's an interesting evolution, I'll say that. But getting back to kind of this situation that she's in now. So her husband, as I mentioned, is older. He was like 40 something, and she was 18. So ugh. And. Danielle: Yeah. Does she try to poison him at any point? I don't know. Jaden: Not in this story. ⁓ we know of. there was, I mean, the relationship was shitty. He was older, controlling and moving to Indonesia aside from like aesthetic and inspiration. just like didn't help anything about their relationship. So he was abusive. He was a constant infidelity, you know, partaker. And actually he had, our guy Rudolph had. Danielle: Okay, that we know of. Yeah. Jaden: Like a concubine, a permanent concubine, AKA sex slave. This was like a regular practice in those times. Danielle: What? Right. Thank you for clarifying what that was. How lonely? Like, that has to be such a lonely existence. like, then you have kids, and some people put their whole energy into their kids when they become a parent or when they have like a bad marriage, whatever. But then if your children also pass away very young. Jaden: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Danielle: You've got trauma on top of trauma and you live in this country where I'm guessing she doesn't speak the language or know anybody else. That's wild. Jaden: Mm-hmm. Well, it's so funny too, because ⁓ he has a slave. And obviously, this was like, ⁓ just accepted by culture And this clearly did not improve any facets of their relationship. ⁓ And then their first child They both, ⁓ both children at this point, I think, let's see, there was two, the boy named Norman and the girl named Jeannie. And Jeannie actually lived till she was about 21, but the little boy only lived for like two years. So two years after Norman was born, these children Danielle: I was sad. Jaden: fell violently ill from complications relating to the treatment of syphilis that they contracted from their parents. ⁓ ⁓ funny you mentioned poisoning. Because ⁓ the family claimed that it an irate servant that poisoned them. ⁓ But I don't think that was true. So Norman, yeah, exactly. It was probably the sex slave. Hmm, interesting. ⁓ In the library. ⁓ Danielle: you Was it the concubine? This is suddenly clue. Yeah. Right. Jaden: So the little boy did not survive, but Jeannie did. So. Danielle: sad. Jaden: And eventually, Jean went to live with her father because even though he was physically abusive and mean towards Magritte, he was actually a pretty good dad to the kids. So she felt like that was a better option. And eventually, she just is like, I'm done. Magritte and ⁓ Rudolph in 1906. And after that was about a four-year separation, which ⁓ at time, again, massive deal. It's not. Danielle: ⁓ wow. Jaden: Yeah, and it's not like, ⁓ I'm just starting over. This is like you blew up your entire social standing and now you're on your own, you know? Danielle: ⁓ my God, where does she go? Does she stay in Indonesia or is she like, bye? Jaden: She actually ends up back in Europe. again, she's in that position where she just has no options because she's... So this is where she kind of flips. This is it. This is where she starts kind of going, OK, I need to make some major changes. So instead of trying to just rebuild her old life, she just makes a new one. And in this new life, this is where she becomes a, quote, exotic dancer. Oh, yeah. Danielle: Okay. Yeah. All right. Love that. Jaden: So in 1903, by 1903, well, OK, so they divorced in 1906, but she had actually moved back to Paris before that in 1903. And she was performing as a circus act. She was riding horses under, ⁓ yeah. And her stage name then was Lady Macleod because she was still married to Rudolph at that point. Danielle: Mm-hmm. Jaden: even though had this in the she still was not making ends meet. So she also did other things like pose for artists, ⁓ doing modeling. ⁓ And ⁓ as ⁓ a ⁓ student, ⁓ Danielle: Mm-hmm. Jaden: at this point of the student of the modern dance movement, this was kind of leading to her becoming part of this big, you know, like contemporary dance and all these things were coming out in the scene. And so this is just kind of giving her this path to go from what she was starting to build reputation as a rising star. And then she essentially just turned into an overnight success with these new dances that she was doing because she started sort of striking out on her own out of the circus and doing like strip teases and everybody was like whoa what is this this is ⁓ this is different ⁓ Danielle: Right? So interesting. What is the time? So are we in like the 1906 range right now? Jaden: at this point, we're in 1904. And this is the time, yeah, that she has reinvented herself as Mata Hari. So part of her spin, this is why I love her so much, because she's just so full of shit. She's like, I'm from Indonesia. OK. And I was raised in temples. Danielle: Okay. Jaden: And I learned all these sacred dances as part of a spiritual tradition. Yeah, so she had a whole spin on it, but none of that was true. ⁓ was really popular, especially Paris at the time, to like dig into anything that felt mysterious and exotic. And she just goes all in. So she's performing these ⁓ slow, ⁓ sensual, dance routines in Danielle: ⁓ wow. Jaden: And yeah, she's starting to remove her clothes. She's doing some stripping. But it's so funny, because the whole time she's framing it as this spiritual, it's not scandalous. And people are like, ⁓ yeah, totally. Yeah, we're totally. Yeah. Danielle: Right. ⁓ interesting. Right. No, we get this. Yeah. Well, especially in Paris at the time, because that would be what I'm trying to like place myself in in that point in history. Like, is that around like the Art Nouveau or Belle Epoque time? Like, where they're the Jaden: Mm-hmm. That, mm-hmm. Well, and I think like spiritualism is about to take hold as well, yeah. Danielle: Right, yeah, yeah, like is it factoring into all of that? Like we're exploring all of these different ways of expressing ourselves Jaden: Right. Mm-hmm. so it's really interesting this kind of evolution ⁓ and much people are buying into it. And, you know, she's totally committed at this point. So she is Matahari. So first, she's known as this dancer. ⁓ And, ⁓ the is that she wants create this hypnotic experience that, ⁓ is is really just theater because loves this shit. She never does actually like. ⁓ Danielle: Yeah. Mm-hmm. R.A.P. Jaden: Well, she never shows her boobs because she was always really self-conscious about the size of her boobs. Yeah. she would take her pants off, so she was naked from ⁓ waist down. ⁓ ⁓ would always have this jeweled breastplate over her chest because she was just like, no, I'm not showing those. No, I'm just like, Yeah. ⁓ Danielle: She's very modest. ⁓ self-conscious. That's hilarious. She's like, get a load of this Bush though. Am I right? Like what of all of the things like to be modest about. Yes. Yeah. That's an important detail. ⁓ quick question. Do we know, do people believe the story that she's spinning? Like I, they do. Okay. So it's like, ⁓ no, she's totally from Indonesia. She's a, yeah. Jaden: I know. I'm like, I'd show my small boobs before I showed my... Anyway, that's... Anyway. So... It is... Yes. They do. ⁓ she's captivating. She's mysterious. again, everybody just knows her as this woo dancer. Wow, wow. But then ⁓ pretty quickly, not the most important part of ⁓ what is happening, So ⁓ she's in these with these very highly influential people. And she becomes a courtesan, which is ⁓ companions or friends or just a And she's Danielle: Okay. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Jaden: moving in these high level social circles with military officers, politicians, and obviously a lot of wealthy men. you know, but you know, the kind of people who have access to information that, can be destructive when people aren't careful with it. this is where it gets interesting. So good at being in these rooms with these people and just being there. She's not doing anything other than just being this ⁓ Danielle: Sorry. ⁓ yeah. Jaden: mystical, magical, beautiful presence, or doing dancing, or whatever, entertainment. But she's observing, and she's listening, and she's making people feel interesting because she's so cool. So she's just like, mm-hmm. Right? Exactly. And so it's honestly, it's one of the most effective ways to get people to tell you shit, right? Just butter them up. So she's really, really good at that ⁓ of, ooh. Danielle: and she's giving them attention and they're like, ⁓ the Mata Hari likes me. Truly, yeah Jaden: And here's the thing that starts to shift how people see her. She has access to power, but she doesn't have a role. So she's not attached to any sort of institution. She's not within any real operating system as a player. She's just always there. She's ever-present. And so it's no wonder that she became the longtime mistress of the millionaire industrialist, Emilie Etienne Goumet, Danielle: Mm-hmm. Jaden: ⁓ And for while it was great. It working out. It was chill. She was having a great time. People were fascinated by her and she was creating all these really interesting relationships and learning a lot of very interesting things. But then World War I starts. Danielle: I bet. Jaden: Mm-hmm. And once the war begins, everything really kind of tightens up ⁓ country relations and movement. ⁓ Movement between countries becomes suspicious. So ⁓ having with people across the borders was a sign of ⁓ this person's up to something. And people start paying way more attention to who knows what and why and all ⁓ this political strain is to set in. Danielle: Mm-hmm. Jaden: And she's just kind of caught up in the middle of this because she's doing what she's always done, traveling and building relationships and just doing her thing and moving between these different circles, which now ⁓ people are like, a minute, this is bad. they start being suspicious of her. ⁓ it was around like ⁓ French intelligence decides they are going to approach her and basically say like, okay, well, Danielle: Mm-hmm. Yeah. ⁓ sure. Jaden: We need you to be useful." And she's like, OK, but So the whole thing feels less spy thriller and more bad decision spiral at this point. You're just like, fuck. ⁓ Danielle: Yeah I know that life. Jaden: Right? know. So at the same time, she falls in love with a very young Russian officer. And well, she, I mean, she was a mistress, right? So yeah, yeah, totally. She ain't committing to nothing. Danielle: Wait, what happened to her French museum boyfriend? Okay, so she's floating around town. Okay. Okay. Jaden: OK. Yes, she has her new boyfriend. So she falls in love with this guy and basically declares him as the love of her life. Danielle: New boy toy ⁓ my God, I Jaden: but he gets really, really badly in the war and actually loses sight in one eye ⁓ and. Dude, ⁓ well, he's still one eye. But. Danielle: Her whole thing is visual. Okay. Yeah. What's her personality like? she like... He's like, it's fine. She's really funny. Jaden: Well, she's like, I love him anyway. Yeah. No, but she really wants to be with him. She's actually in love with this guy and so she's kind of willing to do anything. So the French, again, they're like, well, ⁓ you could go hang out with ⁓ if you spy for us. ⁓ she's like, yes. ⁓ Danielle: Aww. ⁓ my god. So in this time, you needed probably permission to go from country to country, I suppose. And so for her to be with her partially blind boyfriend, she has to have permission from the French government to leave France. Jaden: Yeah, partly just because her proximity to all these political people, ⁓ they eyes on her. ⁓ So. Danielle: Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, yeah, that makes and I can imagine the level of suspicion of like, know, too much, you have to Jaden: Well, let's get into that a little bit. So she says yes. She's like, OK, I'll do this. Not because she's some like mastermind but she just she just wants to be with a guy. And yeah, and and also at this point, people are starting to kind of catch on to her act. they were like, hmm, we don't actually think you're from. But people were copying her, so there's imitators all over the. Danielle: She's in love. ⁓ Jaden: place popping up. And critics are like, ⁓ this is cheap because now it's commodity. It's not interesting. And so her career just starts going, meh. And this is where she really pivots. She's like, all right, cool. I'm going to lean into having access to these people and going this non-entertainment route. Danielle: Right. Right. How old is she at this point, Jaden: She is, let's see, she's probably in her late 20s. Yeah, yeah. it's funny I think she has a reputation generally when you think Mata Hari, if you know about her, you know, ⁓ wow, she was like this dancer who became like a spy and this whole thing. But it sort of is less ⁓ glamorous than it's obviously like over-dramatized or whatever. Because there is actually like no real evidence that she was particularly effective at being a spy. ⁓ Danielle: Okay. Right. Mm-hmm. Jaden: She wasn't subtle. She was hard to be hidden because she was famous, you know? ⁓ anything, she was kind of just like ⁓ the worst possible to be in espionage because everybody knew who she was. ⁓ So before the she's this Bohemian artistic, sexually liberated woman. But as soon as the war starts now, it's same behavior, totally different interpretation. Now people view her as Danielle: Right, yeah. It's so funny. Yeah. Jaden: promiscuous and suspicious and potentially dangerous. But she changes nothing about her behavior. So at the same time that she's quote unquote, spying for the French, she's also talking to the Germans. ⁓ A double agent. Yeah, that's so funny. I have that in my notes. So at one point, she literally offers to trade information for money. So what is she? ⁓ A double agent. Danielle: Interesting. ⁓ a double agent. ⁓ my God. I love it. What? So she needs money, I'm assuming, because there's so many versions of her now and people are less interested. It's like, you got to get a new job, babe. Jaden: Mm-hmm. Well, yeah, because people aren't ⁓ so by her act anymore. So she's leaning into this tie, you know, this sort of show that she's doing. So, ⁓ yeah, she an opportunist. Is she a freelancer? But I don't know. All of the above. Yeah. ⁓ So fast forward to like 1917 and France just their butts kicked in the war ⁓ and they're losing a lot of people. ⁓ Danielle: Yeah. Right. interesting. Maybe both. Who knows? Yeah. Jaden: Morale is dangerously low. And when things are going badly, is a propensity for finding something or someone to blame. And this is where they decide to make Mata Hari the person they want to point to. ⁓ she is arrested accused of being a German spy responsible for thousands. Danielle: you Jaden: of deaths, come on. But the evidence to support it is weak. It's, yeah. Danielle: ⁓ was wondering, like, okay, so she was a spy, was she giving good intel? ⁓ Jaden: She's a... Well, so the evidence is pretty, weak and ⁓ like a mix of messages that were intercepted and they're very vague. There's a lot of assumptions that are made about like what is being said and the interpretation of context and... But it works. easy to create scapegoat because women have no power. ⁓ Danielle: Mm-hmm. Right, right. Jaden: She's seductive, moving between powerful men and playing both sides. ⁓ it's compelling because all the pieces fit, you know? It explains, yeah, it explains everything in a way that feels clean, even if it's not true. But at this point, she's been living this life. I didn't do this justice by going to a lot of the details about the time frame, but I think the breast of the story is interesting. you know, she gets arrested. ⁓ Danielle: obviously a troublemaker. Yeah, no, that makes sense. Right. Jaden: And her trial is very fast, not because it was so easy to prove, but it's just the narrative was already way out of her control. And there's no stopping that. she's basically immediately found guilty and sentenced to death. Yeah. ⁓ so ⁓ long after, she is executed by firing squad. Yeah. And ⁓ of the wildest things Danielle: Mm-hmm. ⁓ my god. Holy shit. Jaden: on squads, typically they put a blindfold around and face the opposite direction. So for her, she was like, ⁓ no blindfold, and I'm the soldiers. yeah. What a baddie. So she built her entire life and death around being seen. ⁓ So, ⁓ but that's not where story OK. So. Danielle: ⁓ yeah. Right. Fuck yeah, make them look you in the eye. love that. amazing. What? She's dead. Her ghost comes back as an exotic dancing ghost. Jaden: I know! Danielle: Where do we go from here, Jaden? Jaden: Yeah, I know. Well, it's sort of a look back. Like, her story just gets bigger and bigger and more, romanticized, obviously, as time passes. And by now, like current times, she's this legendary femme fatale, ultimate spy, you know, this woman who is powerful, beauty, charm, she used those powers to bring down nations. But that's not what happened. She was just used as a scapegoat. So. Danielle: Okay. ⁓ I'm sure, yeah. Right. Yeah. Jaden: She probably wasn't a master spy, but she was a woman who basically, built a life outside the rules, had access to powerful people, and just didn't neatly fit into any category. And when shit went sideways, ⁓ she a convenient explanation. Danielle: Interesting. ⁓ know, what's wild to me is the idea of her being like the easy target, because I can only imagine ⁓ how many other people were also operating as it was a capital crime for a reason because people were doing it, yeah, let's take this famous ⁓ sexy lady and make her the scapegoat, you know? Right. Yeah. Jaden: Mm-hmm. ⁓ Yeah. Yeah, because she has no power to do anything. It's so strange. She had all this power to influence, quote unquote, but then when it got real, it was like, oh no. And so now I'm curious, what is the modern parallel? I think what comes up for me is the influence without title, clear role. ⁓ What is this? ⁓ ⁓ Danielle: Yeah, yeah. Jaden: it's like you go on LinkedIn and there's all these people who are like, ⁓ this me and this is me. am flashy and I'm LinkedIn personality. You know what I mean? And you're performing a version of yourself, but that's just not, Danielle: Ugh. Yes. Yes, do. Yeah. What stands out to me is the... ability to reinvent and shift and the creativity required to do that. Particularly ⁓ a woman ⁓ that time period and just the obstacles that she's up against and how she meets them with a pivot, right? And okay, well, I'll figure this out. someone could make the argument she was lying about who she was. She was being a character. Jaden: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Danielle: Like that's not, that's what actors do every day. she's being a character and then she's finding out that there's power in that character and a government comes to her ⁓ offering her a job. okay, it's really interesting to think about those pivots. And when we look at right now, ⁓ we're seeing this in some ways with AI, right? what does it mean for my Jaden: Right. ⁓ yeah. Danielle: that AI can do all of these things or that we have clients on our doors to say, can you just sprinkle some AI on our website or on our app? It's like, okay, well, I probably need to pivot where I spend my time. That's it's elevating for me when I think about the parallels to today the beautiful ⁓ ability that have. And I mean, this could be true to... Jaden: Yeah. Hahaha! Danielle: for everyone, but I think women do this so well of adjusting where we need to adjust and identifying where the pivots are and being really fucking creative about it. I mean, to make some of these pretty major shifts, like kindergarten teacher, no, I'm gonna be a sexy dancer. Jaden: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Danielle: No, wait, I'm a spy. know, it's that's fucking cool. And they're so different. And in some ways, it's inspiring and hope giving because you can think about what happens after tech. I think about that a lot, you know, like, OK, well, where do we go after technology? Because I'm kind of burning out on that. You know, like that's what that's what stands out to me as the parallel is like the ability to reinvent and pivot. Jaden: Right. Danielle: and be really smart about it. Jaden: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, that's... I love the pivot. I feel like you and I have both done that. ⁓ I think I did that recently, you know, here. ⁓ And I love that. I'm not a spy, but ⁓ I know. That's Well, yeah, and ⁓ then I'd have to kill if I did. ⁓ Danielle: Yeah, Right, yes, absolutely. that we know of, you wouldn't be able to tell us even if you were. What, how funny would that be if it's like, is that what Mr. Bean is? It's like a spy that everybody knows. Like he's not hiding anything. I don't know. I've never seen Mr. Bean. just assume. Jaden: seen Mr. Bean and that's so funny. Danielle: Ha! Jaden: mean, it makes sense because people who you think you know, It's like all these actresses and who were you doing all this crazy kind of shit on the side that no one ever talks about when you're, you know, they only talk about how sexy they were and like the pinups and the acting and then it's like, ⁓ you know, actually, what was it? Hedy Lamar was like a. Yeah. ⁓ Danielle: Right. was just going to bring up the ladies from World War II. There was a bunch of them. Jaden: Mm-hmm. Danielle: This was such a good one. I'm so glad that you brought us the Mata Hari. It's funny, because as you were going into the story, I'm like, so I've heard of the Mata Hari before, but the capital, the. ⁓ But as you were telling the story, I'm like, I read a book about this at some point, and I had to look it up, and I did. now that I'm looking at it, I'm like, this was a good book. It's called Mata Hari's Last Dance. Jaden: The Mata Mm-hmm. Ooh, yeah. Danielle: by Michelle Moran, if you have not read that, I highly recommend. I actually love Michelle Moran, she's one of my favorite authors. Her historical fiction-ish nonfiction is so good. But yeah, I highly recommend that book. It was super good. Yeah, yeah. Do we have a ruining the workplace tip of the week? I do. Okay, it's pretty simple ⁓ and it is turn your cameras off. You deserve a break, babe. Go off cam. So I guess it really only applies if you work remotely. Jaden: Nice. Thank you. I don't know, do we? Let's go. Ha! Danielle: ⁓ but I think there's a lot of power in taking back your visual. Jaden: Yeah, Zoom fatigue is real. I get it. Danielle: Zoom fatigue is so real and it gets exhausting and like, we've been doing this for years now and I still find myself watching my little square. So I'm like, nope, just shut her off. No shade. I'm giving us all permission to turn it off. Jaden: Same. I love it. Awesome. OK, well, turn off your cameras. And for joining us for another episode of Ruining the Workplace. We'll see you next time. ⁓ Danielle: Yeah. Turn off your cameras. See you next time. Bye.