Latest / Coconut Justice / CJP #98: Benjamin Cerbai
Transcript
- Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Hey, what's good? Benjamin Cerbai is a 2D and 3D animator as well as a storyboard and character design artist based in France. He's also a co-creator of the 2D animation app called Calipeg. For me, it's the best 2D animation app available today. This is my conversation with Benjamin Cerbai. Before we get into it. Remember to go to coconutjustice dot com to get you some clothes that I think would look good on you. Let's go. Here he is everybody. Benjamin Serbe. Hi. It's nice to see you again. Benjamin: Hi. Thanks for having me. Last time we talked, it was like maybe 2020, for Sketch Zone, I guess. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah, yeah, yeah. And for those folks that don't know, me and a couple of friends of mine, Jack and Charlie, we had an art related podcast called Sketch Zone. And we would reach out to all kinds of artists, all kinds of, you know, and this was before AI. So, you know, the term artist is really becoming very fluid these days. But we were talking to illustrators and comic book artists and all that stuff, and Benjamin came up. Because he and his friends decided to start this app. And I do believe I was part of the Kickstarter. Benjamin: Yeah, back in 2020. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): yeah. Yeah. So then you guys came on or you came on and told us all about Calapeg and all the things. So real quick, let's talk about Calapeg. What is it? And what are you guys trying to accomplish with Calapeg? Benjamin: So it's a 2D animation software. It's made to make a hand-rolled animation because we come from this world. At first, we love animation. We do animation for some of us. And we decided to make a new tool back in late 2019. And yeah, we started with a Kickstarter just to have a bit of money at first. And then we started to just sell it on the iPad. Then it became also an iPhone app. Now also Android tablets and also desktop now with Calipex Studio. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. And it works and it works you can you can be working on the iPad and using the iPhone as part of the interface, right? Benjamin: Yeah, you can use it as a remote on Kali Peg Mini. So we try to make Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah. Benjamin: a full pipeline of animation tools and also being open to other software you can export to your TVPaint, to After Effects, to Blue Marmonie. We want to be a part of Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): yeah. Benjamin: the big world of animation and not just in our side. Now we have only one type of file and you can't export and so on. We try to be more open. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Benjamin: It's not open source, Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Benjamin: but it's like the open source mindset in a way. We Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Benjamin: try to be easy to just add in your pipeline and also easy to add in our pipeline because we also do animation projects. So we don't want to block ourselves. you can't export to Blender. I should have developed that. So we try Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: to be easy to use. And I also do the communication part. We are four people. co-creators and we are also one other employee developer. So there is two developers for Kali Peg. And I'm doing all the interviews, tutorials, social media, video editing, going to events. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. So you're the marketing guy. Benjamin: Yeah, in a way, but I'm not that strong in marketing. It's more about like, I know how to teach animation, make people want to do animation, but like the marketing part, really the ads and the numbers and so on, it's a bit more difficult to... manage but yeah we we try to do our best on that side as well. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Well, I know I got to meet part of the team at one point and I wanted to thank all of you guys because I don't know if people understand there's four to five people building this application. And it's yeah. Benjamin: Yeah, we were 6 at some point, now we are back to 5. But yeah, it's small team. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah, it's amazing. now that we're talking about the development team and stuff like that, what one of my posts on Instagram has been on fire lately because one of the guests on the podcast said vibe coding is garbage. you'll be better if you if you actually know how to program la la la. Are you guys leveraging? AI or vibe coding or any of that stuff for this for Calapeg? Benjamin: We use now a bit of AI tools to structure some stuff. I'm Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Benjamin: not really the tech guy, but huge parts of code that you have to make a bit more structured to make it go linked to other parts and stuff like that that we wrote. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Sure. Yeah. Benjamin: So that's kind of the way we use it. But it's always a... someone behind it and most of Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Benjamin: that it just written by hand. It just to put things together. Sometimes it could, you can, you can win a bit of time with that, but it's vibe coding is like, want it to look that way, that way, that way. It's not that, that we do it. It's like human, human coding and, and we just use it to ease some parts of the workflow, but I'm not a developer directly. So I don't really know. the language parts and so on. But we do the Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Sure. Benjamin: designs also by hand. we really have all the... Like everything is built by us and then we just fluidify in a way, like really the Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Benjamin: structure of stuff. But I'm not really good on the technical part. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Well similar yeah, similar to that, like I make I make animations, I make films. and I don't have I don't have a Kickstarter, I don't have the funding, I don't have I don't have help for the I mean if we're gonna be all the way honest. I don't have help and not that I have AI creating the drawings for me, but it does help. with the production part of it. It does help me stay on on task, you know. Benjamin: Just to Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): So Benjamin: precise, don't use like, we don't make images or interfaces and stuff like that. We just use it in part of the coding. Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah. You design them, human design. Yeah. Benjamin: And also for our project, it's all we design, we don't generate images. So it's really the difference between image and video generation and like Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Benjamin: more structure parts of coding. And for example, of course with a like DaVinci Resolve and stuff like that, there is AI inside to make the subtitles and to auto cut some stuff. So that's more what I use. It's just video editing part of it. But Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Benjamin: so you use also to generate drawings and stuff like that. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): no. let me see. How can I I'll use it. I'll use it kind of for like brainstorming, maybe, you Benjamin: Okay. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): know. I've kind of I haven't I haven't yet gotten to this point, but I can see where it's helpful if I have a cartoon character and I tell and I and I feed that into Chat GPT or whatever and say. I need to see this character hanging from a helicopter or something, I'll use it I'll use it to create the reference, but I like drawing too much to give that power away to anyone or anything, I would rather I would rather draw. Benjamin: Yeah, I completely agree. just spend my time drawing and animating and really, never really, even with the text, I don't really use AI tools. So I'm more of maybe old fashioned in a way, but I'm Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: yeah, when I write my video, I write my video. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: I just write and I just draw and I find my references around even on Pinterest and stuff like that. Now, when there is more more AI and you can see it, you can Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Benjamin: feel that it's not a real photo. So I search for real photos for that. So it's also an obstacle to have good reference sometimes. So can be a bit tricky now where everything is just a slope, as people say. So yeah, it's a bit difficult to find references now. Like Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): That's a bad word. Benjamin: I'm looking for, I don't know, like a wood boat and a... There is strange stuff on Pinterest and I'm like, that's not woodboats. So how do Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: I find my references? But there is other tools as well, yeah, to find real photos. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. To me, it's again, it's it's a production shortcut. That's because yeah, you can you can be looking for a boat and then you go do a Google image search and you spend two hours looking for the perfect boat or whatever. Instead, I can say, Hey, I need a wooden boat, it's on the sand. Da da da. There's a couple of trees over here, a couple of trees over there, and then you build your reference. It's kind of like I don't know if you've done this, but we we did this quite a bit in Photoshop where we're trying to develop a shot or a scene or whatever. And you, you know, it's called kit bashing. You go and you get some trees or or if you're doing a spaceship or anything like that, you kit bash. You go and you get some items over there and you put them all in the place and you get a Benjamin: Okay. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): rough idea of what you're trying to make, and then you just draw that. Benjamin: Okay, I see. I'm not really used to that workflow even on Photoshop. I just gather references and then I Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Benjamin: sketch different thumbnails. So I'm not really used to the photobashing. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. That was more I've saw it. I saw it used in in Hollywood, where people there there was a f guy that I knew that had a whole company about visualization and he would get parts of a script and and you know, directors or whomever was hiring him said, I need to vis I need to visualize this. Can you? And then he'd go in and He put stickers and all kinds of stuff on the spaceship and make it look a certain way, put add some rust, da da da da da. But he was leveraging he was leveraging Photoshop and and and like mudbox and all that stuff to put together just a view. So then so then the director or whoever who was hiring him, they were able to go to the team and say, just build it like this. Benjamin: Okay. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): You know. Not with AI, his company's gone, but Benjamin: Yeah, that's also part of the problem. And that's also why we, when people say, we have some, for example, in between assist in, Calipeg, so it takes your onion skin and put them together. you can choose where it is. And people are like, is it generative and so on? So we'll just say no, it's a, put this and this and you put it together. it's really, Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Int it's interpolation, yeah. Benjamin: it's really just put that image here and here. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): That's not Benjamin: It's just location. There is no algorithm Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: or anything. But people Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: now think everything is AI. that's why we tell there is no generative Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah, they think everything is a yeah. Benjamin: AI in the tools. So yeah, you just have to draw. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. And just to let folks know, like relax a little bit, because those things, those things were happening in Flash back in 2000. we used to I remember, this is how old I am. I remember when Flash came out and you could start with a circle and then in another frame you can make a square and then it would just interpolate the shapes between the circle and the square. That is not AI, it's math. Benjamin: Yeah, but AI is mass in a way, it's really like Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): definitely. Benjamin: the two, like AI has been here for like 30 or 40 years, I think, like in the concrete of it. And Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Benjamin: just now the text to image is a problem to me, like just stealing images everywhere and then just Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Right. Right. Benjamin: throwing it after with just the text. So that's part of the issue, the stealing of art and so on. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: But yeah, the algorithm and everything like that is just part of the computering. So Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Benjamin: it's been here to make many kinds of stuff. also, people are against, and I am also mostly against, like, generative images, videos, because you just keep the people. to the in-betweens in a way to make that. of course, in the health industry, not industry, but health in general, you can have many things like your scan. I don't have the world, but to find the cancer and so on. It's just strange that AI decided to focus, like the company decided to focus on art to meet the mystery of it. why did you decide to? I guess it's like we can't. I will maybe be a bit cynical here, but like we can't draw. We can't make movies. We don't know how to do that. So let's make a machine to do it. And it would be better. the CEO of Suno, like people don't want to make Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Benjamin: music. And I'm like, yeah, I want to make music. So why do you think people don't want to make Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: music? It's really strange to me. But yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. I yeah. People like the process of things. They like to, you know, gardeners grow gardens, farmers grow food, you know, ranchers grow animals. It's it's just Benjamin: And that's also a nice advice to just, if you don't like the process of it, it's maybe that you don't really like the craft itself. If Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Yeah. Benjamin: you just want to result, maybe it's not really your place as a human. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): You should go into the stock market, yeah. Benjamin: Or maybe just other stuff, like find something you want to do, even if there is not a... result at the end. Yeah, it's pretty natural to me to just want to do stuff and then we will see. But maybe it's not everyone. I don't know. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah, I think it's unfortunate here in in America. I think it has a lot to do with this struggle that rich people think the poor people need to go through so they can understand the value of money, I guess. I don't understand, you know, so everything is a get rich quick scheme. Benjamin: I don't know if the word exists in English, yeah, Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): And I think that that's yeah. Benjamin: there is the same problem here in France. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. And and people are like water, to be fair. People are like water. They're going to take the the the road of least resistance. And if AI is opening up the doors to least resistance, people are gonna take that. But I if I'm trying to if I'm trying to be a writer, I don't understand why you would let anyone or anything do your writing. Same thing with illustration, Benjamin: And also part of it is to watch Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): same thing with animation. Benjamin: the one of the beauty of it is to watch what someone did. And you know that Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Benjamin: someone wrote that like 200 years ago, and it's special to imagine the person just writing it and how was the feeling when you're when writing and how does it how it is an echo of a period in particular, you know, so it's Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Benjamin: to me, part of the human stuff. It's just people making stuff and yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. The human experience, huh? Benjamin: Exactly. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Cause it's like if you're watching basketball or even football, like the way that you guys say football. You see a guy who who kicks the ball and is it's just a rocket. The ball is a rocket that goes into the net. Or if you're playing basketball and it's the guy who jumps really high and dunks on someone, you feel like Hey, look, that's that's a human doing that. That's extraordinary. But if you give that basketball player or if you give that soccer player a bionic leg or a robotic leg and he's kicking foot soccer balls into the net, you're like, Yeah, but he's got a robot leg. You know? Benjamin: Yeah, or just seeing robots dancing, it's like, okay, it was programmed and then, yeah. So, okay. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): That's true. Even dancing, yeah. Benjamin: Yeah, we see now some shows with robots doing some fights. It's a bit strange to Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: see because some people just wanted to see robots fight and not even controlling them. It's a pretty strange world. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. It's so weird. yeah, and and and to I want to finish off with AI and kind of leveraging technology to to help your art. I've also noticed how some people will use something like a blender or whatever and they use 3D to block out. a scene and then they'll use it. And I've even seen people trace over a a blender rendering. Benjamin: Yeah, I do that for my background sometimes because I Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: do 3D for long now because I started when was 10 or 11, I just had my computer and Blender was already there. So I just started to make like blogs and started to make some cities and some rooms. And for my last year short film, Fragments of Sky, I just made the background in Blender, like the whole environment. And then I just... play with my cameras, and that's part of what I like with 3D scenery, is that you just have like a, like you would play with toys, just you have your set, and then you go, I would do this and this and, and you just play, Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: and it's, to me at least, it's a bit more fun to use, because if I have to imagine the perspective and everything, I will be limited to what I can do, like in my head, and now I can just, put the camera here, play with the focal length, Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Benjamin: I can really have a real feeling of the scene. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Benjamin: And also to play with the cuts and make the editing in Blender itself. That's what I do for my current short film, because Animatic is a 2D, 3D in Blender with the grease pencil. And I just have some cuts and the camera is cutting one to the other, and I can make my entire sequence. within one file. So to me, it's a really nice way to have more ideas of scenery if you want really to make a scene and be a director. So I encourage everybody to just learn even the basics of Blender and just putting blocks and adding a light, just enough to play with your toys and not having a maquette in your room. So yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's that's a good point. 'Cause yeah, the Blender makes me feel more like a filmmaker, you know? 'Cause you do have the lighting, you do have the cameras, you do have the Benjamin: Yeah, because we are always... Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): props and everything, yeah. Benjamin: It's a nice combination of what you do in 2D, what you do in stop motion. You can really just have an entire world existing and you can play with that because stop motion is also an interest of mine, but it's just too much. You have to build stuff physically. And I tried Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: to do some stop motion with my Legos and so on, but I will do that in Blender because I can have that kind of... a stylish render, you can make it like wood and so on. And you can make it tiny with some focal lengths. But yeah, it's too much to have. You need entire rooms to make stop motion. So it's a bit more difficult. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): It is. Yeah. now that we're talking about Blender, so for folks that don't know, like and and Benjamin touched on it. Blender's a 3D well actually it's more than three D because it does three D. You can do modeling, you can do sculpting, you can do motion graphics, you can edit. It's it's pretty incredible. It's Benjamin: Yeah, there is also video editing, compositing. It's really a blender. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): yeah. It's pretty incredible. But they have say you're a say you're a 2D animator, and probably a lot like both Benjamin and I. I'm not I don't fancy myself a background artist, but I can block something out in Blender. And in Blender, they also have the 2D capabilities called grease pencil. that you can actually go in there and draw and animate and do all the wonderful things. And you still have a lot of the power that Blender has for these interpolations that, your moving shapes has nothing to do with AI. Benjamin: Yeah, you can... Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): It has everything to do with the math inside. Benjamin: Yeah, for the Animatics, it's really nice to use. I also do some storyboards and Animatics in Kali Peg as well. But here I can just place my images on planes or just draw it, and then I just slide with keyframes. So I can really set up things like in a... Since my short film will be also in 3D, it will be a 2D Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): yeah. Benjamin: animation in 3D environments. So the 2D will be made... Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): What's your short film called? Benjamin: It's Beyond the Tides. So it's a story of a guy living near the ocean, and he just collects everything that the waves are bringing. And he Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yes. Benjamin: has many objects in his home. And one day, he discovers a strange cube between rock and metal. And he decides to put it home. And then the cube has some strange powers. It's just some objects are falling from it. So he decides to keep it and so on. and the cube would be wanting to go back to the ocean, and the guy doesn't want it. So it's a nine-minute film. Yeah. So the 2D animation Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. 'Cause he likes the power. Nine minutes? Benjamin: would be made. Yeah. It would be a mix of a CaliPack for 2D animation of the characters and Blender for the environments. So I have the animatic. I have most of the visual development. And I want to start making it next year. So it would be Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): fun. Benjamin: the entire year. And I hope I will. be able to finish it end of 27, but yeah, 27. But yeah, we will see. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. That's exciting. Benjamin: Yeah, but it's part of like I just have too much stuff to do. And it's always difficult to organize because it's just too many hats. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. And that's a part that's a part that's the part where I AI comes in handy 'cause like again, Benjamin is helping run this company that's making two D animation software. So it's not like it's not like you you can work on a film full time. Benjamin: Yeah, I'm like maybe 30 % on the film because I try to just have different tasks for different moments of the day. I try different ways of working and the best to me is just to have like a weekly task. And I try to Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Benjamin: do that sometimes I can. But I know, for example, this week I have to finish a video because I have a... sponsorship with a tablet and so on. So I have to finish Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Okay. Benjamin: that. And in the same time, I have to do the technical support of Kalipeg. So I know that like one hour in the day will be emails. Just click here. you have to do that and do that. So it's really Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: simple stuff, but yeah, I have to do that as well. And also I run my own podcast and channel. So I have like four or five interviews I have to edit for the months Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): yeah. Benjamin: to come. And also the movies, so the movies, I try to be like in the live streams, I make two times a week, I try to work on the film. So I have my Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): cool. Benjamin: specific schedule, like it will be six hours in the week, and I will make my visual development while talking to people and so on. So Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): cool. Benjamin: that's a way for me to force me to just work on the film, because if I don't, will just do something else and just because it's lot to manage. And I'm also writing now for another story I want to make. So it's Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Nice. Benjamin: different exercises. So that's why I can do everything at the same time, because it's not the same part of your brain in a way. So Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: the film is already written. It's like visuals. I have to develop the character. I have to do some 2D, 3D tests to see if it works. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Benjamin: And the story is just a story. So I have to write. have to... write some scenes. And also one of the differences is that Beyond the Tides is a silent film. So there is no dialogues. There is Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: music and so on, but no dialogues. And the new project is with dialogues and more characters. So it's another exercise to try to have some relevant people speaking, Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: not telling the story, but telling the story. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: So it's another playground. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): How did you get into animation? Benjamin: I think it was just because I loved animation, like many kids, and I drew, like just never stopped to draw. And it was like different steps because at first, like when I was six, I was like, I want to draw. So I just want to draw characters and so on. And then I learned to read and I'm like, comics, it's more drawings and you tell a story. So, okay, it will be comics and then it will be a... Then there was the wave of manga when I was in Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): yeah. Benjamin: like 10, something like that. So I read a lot of Dragon Ball, Yu-Gi-Oh!, Naruto, Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Sure. Benjamin: all the stuff. And I was like, want to be a mangaka. And then I just looked into my DVDs and I watched the bonus features in the DVDs, like the Incredibles and so on. So I saw the documentaries of people making movies. I was like, there is some teams behind it. So maybe I can be part of this team. it was like, it's far away. You have to be American to do that. You have to be American or Japanese. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): You know what's funny is when I was a kid, I thought the same thing. I thought, Benjamin: Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): it's just magic that they get to make. We're not allowed to do it. Yeah. Benjamin: Exactly. And then when I was in, not high school, but before that, I was 12. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Grade school or yeah. Benjamin: And I had an art teacher. She knew that I drew a lot and so on. And she decided to teach us GIMP, like the Photoshop alternative. So Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Kimp. yeah. Yeah yeah. Benjamin: we did that at school and I was like, cool. GIMP is nice. And I started to, I wanted to download it at home. But then I think it happens that way because that's my memory, but I hope I'm not inventing stuff. But I wanted to download it. And for a reason we didn't have internet that day. So I just asked my teacher, can you give me GIMP? And she gave me two CDs. And there was one with GIMP and one with Blender. And I didn't know what Blender was. So she told me, Blender, it's to make a 3D, you can make animation. And so there was Elephant's Dream. the short film, one of the first short films made by the Blender Foundation, the making of Elephant's Dream and Blender itself, that XZ. So I was like, I see a film, I see how they made the film and I have the tools they used to make the film. So then there was no excuse. I have the tool to make a film on my computer. So I started to learn Blender and that's, yeah. And then I discovered TV Paint and Pencil 2D. everything. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: So it was really a random stuff in a way. I think I would have discovered it maybe a few years later, but it was like, I have no internet, here is Blender. So it's Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: kind of a funny story. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): It's those is those little accidental things that I always tell people if you're just quiet and turn off the world, the noisy world, the process of life tells you where to go. Right. And that's for me it was similar. I've always wanted to be an animator or a two D animation guy. I went to school for advertising. And I thought to myself, well, it's fine, the but the but the images are still. And then I had a friend when I was getting my design degree. I had a friend who had gone to some 3D school for some kind of tour or whatever. He came back. He was like, my God, they're doing 3D and they're making movies and all those things. And I'm like, that's what I've always wanted to do. So then I went and I checked out that school and da-da-da. Fast forward now. I'm here making movies and animations. Benjamin: Yeah, it's a strange connections. It's just someone Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: tell you something and you see something on the forum somewhere. Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: So I think you will find the way to that at some point because that's what I wanted to make, I guess, from the beginning. I wanted Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: to do animation. It was like the start of it. But something was like, that's now with that tool. So I just started. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah. Were your parents supportive of you being an artist? Benjamin: Yeah, it was a they are not artists themselves, even though I knew a bit after that, my mom used to write some stuff like stories, Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Benjamin: but just for her. And my dad Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Benjamin: is is really into books. So they don't work in the art, but they watch a lot of movies and they read a lot. So it's yeah, there is this cultural Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): They appreciate it. Yeah. Benjamin: stuff around. So they bought us some books, like all the Tintin, Asterix, and so on, the classic French and Belgian comics. And we didn't have much money, and still now, but they tried their best. And it was like, we can't afford to send you to an art school. You can go to Gobelin and stuff, because it's too much. But they searched for me, with me, to have a art school around. So I did go to the city. Right now, I did go to the art school there. So they always we can't afford a lot of stuff for your art career, but we will do our best. And they also gave me like the books about drawing, about painting, stuff like that, at like birthdays and so on. So they knew that something was Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: happening and like, you like drawing, take that and that and that. Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Feed it, feed it. Benjamin: So there was no obstacle except of financial, but they never told me, they never told me you can do it or it's not a job or stuff like that. It was like, Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: we don't really know that world, but just try and try to be also in security. Like don't go live on the streets to make art, know? Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: But yeah, just try. it was supportive. Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. And I think I think an important lesson for artists is if you want to do art and you want to get paid to do art, you have to make sure you get paid to do art. A lot of times we're just excited, hey, look, I get to work on something cool and we don't we don't get money. So we need to change that, that that approach. Benjamin: That's a difficult part also because now I'm starting to have some freelance contracts to Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Benjamin: make some storyboarding or character design, making some Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Benjamin: advertisements in 2D, 3D. But Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Benjamin: since I have, I just worked after art school, so I never Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Benjamin: really did have to make my life as a freelance because I started to work at TV Paint when I went out of art school because it's in the same city. And I just... started there so I was like the communication guy there. So I make Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Benjamin: interviews and social media and so on while making my... Yeah, I Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): You're just a friendly guy. Benjamin: am just the communication guy forever. But Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: I just made that and on the side I just made my short films and drawing and videos and so on. But it never have to make money because I did have a job. So I never had the struggle to... I have to make YouTube... for a living. So that's also why I make some YouTube stuff that is not really relevant in the financial side. But I think it's important because I make the tutorials about 2D, 3D. I try to make a catalog of stuff for people who can go to art school. So I have a podcast called, so the name is a bit too technical, but it's like the jobs of animation and image. stuff like that in French. And the goal is just to invite as many artists as I can, like studio directors, storyboarders, illustrators, and also Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Benjamin: people studying at the moment to tell that school is like this, like that. So I try to build something that would be useful for people like me with Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Benjamin: really no art background, like a real studio Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: job and so on. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: So I try to, I don't know if that word is in English, but vulgarize, is it a word? explaining stuff, making it easy to understand. In French it's like vulgarize, but it's like vulgarize, Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Okay. Benjamin: but I'm not sure it's in English. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): no, that's not something vulgar Benjamin: haha Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): in English is something bad. Benjamin: Yeah, also in French it's vulgare, but vulgariser is making Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah. Benjamin: it affordable for everyone and making it understandable. So I don't Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: know why it's related. Maybe it's because you make it vulgar, you make it for the people, know. Maybe vulgarity is about people in the etymology of it. There should be an origin for that. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): You take the yeah, you take a new sp I don't know. Words are crazy. I love that though. there's a friend of mine who's been on the channel a couple of times, Rodgon the Artist. Benjamin: Mm-hmm. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): And he tells us the story about going to art school and paying all that money to go and He wasn't really satisfied with the education or what they were teaching. And he also had a friend that signed up for the same school that long story short, couldn't pay the bills and he took his own life. Da da da da da. And so Rodgon is hell bent on teaching the world how to draw for free. On YouTube, it's not for free. He's making the corporations pay. But if if you want to learn, there's artists like Rodgon, like Benjamin. Even I was gonna tell you about Yu Pie tunes. Yu Pie tunes, they're they're showing the process of making these animations and they're showing the the the process of drawing and having people fall in love with the process of drawing and and animating and stuff. So I love that you're doing that. And we're gonna put a a link to your podcast in the description of this video too. But it's in French, you said your podcast? Yeah. Benjamin: Yeah, the podcast is in French. I don't know if there is some subtitles, automatic subtitles, because I can manually do the subtitles. But maybe there is English subtitles, I guess. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Sure. Yeah. Benjamin: Maybe a strange AI voice. I don't know if YouTube is doing that or not. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: Maybe it's me talking like, hello, you can... Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): don't say that. You you're gonna get in trouble for using AI. Benjamin: Yeah, I had some trouble like that because I did make some course for 21 Draw and I do the course in English. And so they used, I guess it's an AI tool, just automatic voice at least, to make me talk French in the advertisement. So people were just scrolling on Instagram and they see me, so they know me in French. And they see me talking with not my voice. So they Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: send me messages like, did you get hacked or something like that? I was like, no, they're just dubbing myself. But I told them, I can send you a French video. You use it as an advertisement. And then it was OK. But I was like, people know that's not my voice. So it's a bit strange. But like, 10 people just Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah. Benjamin: asked me, did you get pirated hacked or something like that? No. Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. No. It's just that's where we are right now. Benjamin: Yeah, it can be pretty strange because I don't know if it happened elsewhere, I guess so, but some YouTubers and so on just have their face taken and put it into advertisement for money games and stuff like that. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Benjamin: there were some, I hope, consequences. But yeah, it was like they Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah, for real. Benjamin: used the face. to sell something so people were thinking about that like do they try to use you to sell some strange courses and I was like no it's me it's really me but it's not my voice. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: Wait, went okay. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): is is France really supportive of the art community? Benjamin: Friends like the state itself. There is a... Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): The yeah, the state of France or the country of France. Cause it hit historically historically France, especially Paris wanted to be the hub for culture and art and all these wonderful things, creative things. Is that Aura still there? Benjamin: Yeah, there is like, we call that the French exception, at least in cinema. There is a CNC, it's a National Center of Cinematography and Animation. And you can apply to that. There is not that many places, that many, not everyone can have that, but you can apply and you can get some money to make your film. And the good Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Okay. Benjamin: thing about that is that When you go to see any movie in France, in the price of the ticket, there is a portion of that that goes to CNC. And then it's Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): nice. Benjamin: redistributed. So when you go to see Fast and Furious 24, you participate in financing like a small movie. it's a Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): I love that. Benjamin: nice system. And some other countries want to do that as well. there is also the difficulty of there is a presidential election. next year and there is a like the far right is pretty high in the vote intentions and they want to just cut that because it's like we don't want to support art and so on so it's also one of the many reasons to not support the alt-right and the far right is that Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: they want to just cut that and I think they just want to produce movies about friends like the great friends 200 years ago and the knights and so on. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. propaganda films. Yeah. Benjamin: basically, so they don't want people to make movies about what they want. And it's like, like they think we are like parasites that take money and so on, So there is really, it's a battle at the moment. Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. I that's what's fr that's what's frustrating to me, right? You have normal people like you and me, and we're not afraid to work. We're not afraid to hand draw things, we're not afraid to do that. But the people that are injecting all of these shortcuts into society, they're telling us that we don't work hard enough. Benjamin: It's not important to just do your small stuff. But it's part Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): And that we're Benjamin: of what makes Friends a big place in animation. It's that system that you can get help from the CNC, so it's national. You can also get Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah. Benjamin: help from the region itself. For example, for my film, I did get a small amount of money to make the visual development, so we made an application to apply to that. And you have many different small things like that. You can also go to a residency. So a place where you'll just work for a few weeks or you'll get some help to write and so on. So you always have to apply because there is not a lot of place for that. But people are making movies like this. And it's not even enough to me because you could make even more movies and even more art in general. But France is pretty good. for that, for distributing and making things possible, even Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): And supporting the arts. Benjamin: if it's not really like a small movie will make not many, not a lot of money in the theaters can exist because of that. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah. Benjamin: And also we don't talk about movies in like the box office money. We talk about how many people went to see it. So it's also a difference. It's like this movie made 2 million people, 2 million entries. And in other countries, it's more like it made 10 million dollars. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: So it's also a different way to see it. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. And that's where you have to be careful because the out here it seems like everything everyone is trying to work an angle. You know what I mean? Everyone is trying to everyone's trying to take shortcuts. So they might say, yeah, this this this movie made two million dollars, but we're learning that there are corporations that will buy records or books or whatever to boost up those numbers. Meanwhile, it seems like in France is like, no, there's two million people bought these tickets and they sat down and they watched this movie. Benjamin: It's really a count of how many tickets, basically. So the money is also important, Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah, that's way more effective. Benjamin: but yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: It's also part of the, can you make the number two? So can you make the future film? it's Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: of course part of the discussion, the money, but you don't talk about only the box office money. And I think it's Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Right. Benjamin: a good way to see stuff because it's, art has to make money in a way because it's like capitalism and so on. If we talk about that, I can tell that it's not that good of a thing, but... But it's how it is for now. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: I guess France is pretty much a good part to make animation and movies. And also we do movies with way less money. I don't have the numbers exactly, but I think the medium for a French animation film is maybe around 8 or 12 millions, I guess, stuff like that. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: So you make a feature film with that and with the help of TV money and the regions and so on. But it's way less than other countries. And the biggest movies here are from Illumination, so it's a kind of American company, so it's a bit different. But for all the rest, it's not that much of money to make films. So that's why we are methodical in the way we do. We can't really... play too much with money, have to be efficient. So I guess that's also part of how we can make smaller risks in films. So it's not like a 200 million and it has to be a hit. So you can just make 10 films, 10 millions, and different art styles and different type of stories, movies not only for kids, also for adults. yeah, I think it's pretty rich in the... in the diversity you get in the movies, in animation in particular. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Sure. I love that. I love the support. And yeah, I think it's terrible that there's there's some folks that think just because they have money that they get to say what movies get made. And Benjamin: It's not even about movies, it's not even about money, guess it's just like, if they have the power, they just decide that what we will see and what we will read and what we can't read. So it's really like propaganda stuff, basically, but it's a far right. It's what they do. But it's pretty scary. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah. Mind control. Yeah. Yeah. Is that not to get too crazy into politics, but I know that I know that France is on fire right now. I know that Benjamin: Hmm, yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): there's been a lot of protests and stuff. Is that is it for similar reasons, this far right or alt right thing that's happening? Benjamin: The protests are about the high schools and the university. They don't have enough resources. it's really, you have some like falling roofs and some rats in Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Okay. Benjamin: the classes, not enough chairs. So it's really tangible stuff. So they decided to protest. So completely right. And then there was a lot of... I don't know the world, but the police is fighting them. And there is a lot of videos of policemen, like, Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Beating people up. Benjamin: yeah, beating young people. So it's like a police versus kids, basically. So it's really different than usual. Because in France, we protest a lot. That's part of what we do. So we just want the rights. yeah, Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Sure. That's part of your culture. Benjamin: exactly. But it's a nice thing, I guess. But now it's a lot more repressive. So the police is, and they want to the army as well. So it's really, it's really strange. the, the president. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): They're taking notes from us. That's don't do this, France. Benjamin: Yeah, it's really, it's really a strange situation. the president is not even the far right is he was supposed to be the middle, you know, we call it the center. So Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah, sure. Benjamin: he was supposed to do that. And we knew like, comes from like banking and he was Minister of Economy and we knew what he did like years before. And it's far and far more to the right now. So yeah, Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: it would be a battle to to see what happens in the next year. But also the left is going stronger and we hope that it will go that way. But yes, it's a pretty strange world. Now it's a dystopian, like the start of dystopia. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. And and as filmmakers, isn't it just like walking into a all you can eat buffet, right? You want to tell stories and you walk in and like there's all of this all of this stress and all of this drama and all of these things are happening. I take notes down every day. Benjamin: Yeah, I would prefer to just read a book about that. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Ha ha ha ha. Benjamin: I've seen a reel on Instagram, like someone telling when you write a dystopia, like two years ago, and she's just typing and reading like Orwell and Huxley and so on. And when you write a dystopia right now, and she's just looking at the window and taking notes. But it's really, it's a really difficult situation. Yeah, there is always, Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): People are gonna think you're stealing from the newspapers. Benjamin: there is a newspaper in France, it's called the go-graphy because there is a figure. It's like the switching and it's Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Benjamin: like a parody newspaper. And now you have the real news and you're like, is it the parody or not? And it's not the parody. So it's like Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah. Benjamin: that guy has stolen millions of euros from that. or just this woman told that. It's so like a South Park. And you're like, is it real? Yes. So Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: it's just strange. Yeah. I think it's becoming a kind of dystopia. It's really the people against the police and the government and even more now. people are making jokes about Hunger Games and stuff like that because you feel like it's the start of the book. It's that, you know. But yeah, it's pretty scary. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah. We did you see did you see that that our president he put together something that was kind of like Hunger Games? He put Benjamin: Which Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): together a whole show that was similar to Hunger Games. We had Benjamin: Okay. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): two contestants, a boy and a girl from fift from each of the fifty states, and they competed in this goofy game. Benjamin: Okay, I didn't say that. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're like Benjamin: It's so, yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): dystopian for real. And we're gonna see. For us, it's it's in probably in about two more weeks. We have a big election and and Benjamin: Okay. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): we're gonna see we're gonna see where we go. Benjamin: So that's the election of president or something else? Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): No, no. We have we have what's called midterms. Benjamin: Okay. yeah, I've seen that. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. So what happens is we have we have the three branches of government. The the president is every four years. The Senate is every well, I think it depends on the state, but the Senate is every six years, and the House of Representatives is every two years. Benjamin: Hmm. Okay. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): And so this is a big one where we're voting for the House and the Senate. And if the House of Representatives flips to left leaning people. Then we're gonna start seeing a bunch of investigations and a bunch of charges and a bunch of stuff. And you might see you might see some cities out here looking a little bit like some of these French cities where things are on fire and stuff. So it's gonna be interesting Benjamin: It's also... Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): to see. But yeah, definitely dystopian. Benjamin: It's also chosen what you see just a part of what is happening. guess other news are just putting the fires and so on. But it's also Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Benjamin: peaceful protests. There is a lot of people in the streets. And part of the biggest events are shown, I guess, more. What's also, we talk a lot about that now, what's a lot interesting as well is that you can see that it's in other countries, they tell stuff they don't tell in our news and so on. it's like we see, sometimes you see like in that country, something is happening and you see it in your country, but in that country, they don't really show it. for now and I will show it a bit later. It's like, Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah. Benjamin: it was like that for real. But other countries sometimes are a bit more maybe realistic about what's happening. And in the country itself, it's like, no, no, it's OK. It's OK. So I guess it will be Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah. I think they Benjamin: strange in two years when we will see the real stuff. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. yeah, there's a lot of there's a lot of elections happening that are setting the table for the future. The one down in Benjamin: Yeah, in Europe as well. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): not Venezuela, but somewhere down there, maybe Brazil just happened. Benjamin: Yeah, was yesterday from now. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah. and then obviously the one in Israel that's supposed to happen anytime now. that one's gonna be crazy. And then ours in a Benjamin: Yeah, it's a... Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): couple weeks and yours in a couple years, and we have another one in a couple years for president and stuff. Benjamin: For us it's like in 6 months, maybe 7. So yeah, it's pretty close. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Does Macron have a overall pretty good? do do the French people trust him? Benjamin: No, no, it's completely the opposite. It's like the most hated. Yeah. Because it's Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): yeah. So he he broke the trust and you guys are done with Macron. Yeah. Benjamin: like all smile and so on. But it's really oppressive. know, some cities didn't have the right to protest two days ago. Like, Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): yeah. Yeah. Benjamin: no, we don't authorize it. So people made it anyway. So because we just protest. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Benjamin: And but it's because you can't really do that in the law. But they told, no, you don't have the right to do that. So it's really also like a European Commission talking about it's not there is no law behind that. So you have to know the law to know that you have the rights. yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Leave these people alone. Yeah. Yeah. They they do that to us too. they lie to us constantly, constantly. And yeah, we'd we're we're getting down the same way. We we're out there, we're doing our friendly protests, where a bunch of us holding signs and it's basically a party in the streets. You know, we're we're showing the powerful that it doesn't matter what you do, we're still gonna love each other, we're still gonna be here for each other. It's not your TV show, it's our TV show, you know. Benjamin: Yeah, it's a big part of also in France, it's just people talking and like parties like you told, there was like some orchestra in some cities, just Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: in the streets and then the police tried to destroy everything. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Did you see our little frog guy that was running around? We had a guy dressed up in a frog outfit and he and Benjamin: Okay. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): and he became like the mascot for for all the protests and stuff. Cause the police beat him up. Benjamin: Okay, didn't see. In France, there was a lot of... Yeah, in France, there was a lot of costumes also. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): I saw a pink panther. Benjamin: yeah, you see, I wasn't like on the streets at that moment. And also, it's more in Paris, I guess, that we see the images. But you can see Deadpool and Spider-Man just dancing together. And Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Okay. Benjamin: then you see Batman coming. There was a guy dressed as Captain America. And it was like with the shield and everything and the police are just throwing water and it's like that and so on. So you Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: have some powerful images as well on the protests. It's also a lot of pop culture and just people dressing as heroes. And it's also strange to see that many people are making comparison with art. in Star Wars, you're with the rebels. In other games, Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: you're with the people in the game. And why in the real life are you with the Empire and so on? So it really puts in perspective, like in a movie, you're like, yeah, the rebellion is so cool. And in real life, you're like, no, we have to repress everything. So Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: it's really strange psychologically, like, what do you think about? But Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: yeah, the rebellion is just here. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): And that's the important part of that for me that that's what brings importance to us storytellers. Cause we get to tell the story our way, whether it's 2D, 3D, film, whatever, whatever, whatever. The fact that we're telling the stories to to bring light to different situations and and to let people know, like it's it's it's not always wonderful out here or to show folks what we're going through that we've seen a lot of similarities whether it be Hunger Games, whether it be Star Wars, we can see the struggle between good and evil. And it's important for us to put that in story form to show people, to teach people. Does that make sense? Benjamin: Yeah, I see. I guess in a way to go a bit more about making stories and so on, more and more and I get that you just have to put what you have inside because it will, even if it's personal and if you like something you lived and so on, you can make it kind of universal in a way. So that's what I try to do more. lighter way, it's not about politics and so on, my new story, but it's about childhood and what I lived in my home. So it's really a bit of a mix of the stories I lived there, my friend and my parents and so on. But I think it can be a bit more universal. So I try to make it not only about that story, but a bit more about the the scary part of childhood and stuff like that. Because the story basically is that it's a bit exaggerated, but that's how we felt it as kids. We had like a witch at the first floor of the building. So there was a Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): The and yeah. Yeah. Benjamin: lot of stories about that, like how I was scared to go in the basement, how it was Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: scary to see the husband of the witch. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: He had an old lantern to go to the basement because Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Sure. Yeah. Benjamin: basically they didn't want to pay the electricity. But to me, it was like there is an old guy with a lantern to go downstairs. So I tried to Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah yeah. Benjamin: put some mythology around that. There is a rich and the guy is maybe also maybe not a demon, but a strange creature and stuff like that. So Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Sure. Benjamin: I tried to mix the story with the reality. and some symbols and so on. I did not know that I wanted to tell that. But then I just talked about it with someone and I was like, it could be a story, you know, because it was really scary as a kid. we were like, Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Sure. Benjamin: there was like, she ran after us in the stairs and so on. So she was really a mean person, you know. Not magic, I hope not, Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: but it was really a strange way to live my childhood. So I tried to Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: make a story around that and to also have the symbol of downstairs, upstairs, because we live upstairs, and how you want to, how you have to go underground, maybe to discover something about yourself or the symbol of the building, I guess, can be a nice... Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Gotta dig deeper, yeah. Benjamin: Yeah, and maybe something is happening in the attic, which is inside our apartment. So I'm writing about that just to see how it can be maybe a short series or stuff like that. I think it's more and more I just try to write about what I lived and put it in another way. But to have the natural feelings also, like what What do I feel at that moment? How that can be a monster instead of a human? But just make it some universal story about childhood and so on. So I guess it's a bit related to what we told, spreading some messages, but starting with the feeling of that. And maybe it will touch other people that way. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Do you write a bunch of stories that don't necessarily go not that they don't go anywhere in story wise, but they don't go into production into anything. You know? Do you just have Benjamin: I am. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): a do you have a bunch of stories just laying around? Yeah. Benjamin: I don't know if they will come into production. So I just write stuff. And now I started to have the habit of just writing when I have an idea. For example, I talk about really some story life here, but we went to the parking lot and there was like, I don't know how you say that, a plague maybe, like where you have the water. in the thing, in the streets, there is a, when you can see Pennywise and so on, you know, I don't know the name of it. Yeah, just Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): yeah, yeah, yeah. Like the sewer, the yeah, yeah, yeah. The Benjamin: the, the plate itself, you know. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): That great thing. Yeah. Benjamin: Yeah. And, and there was like a paper plane on it and Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Benjamin: other paper planes around and we didn't know where it came from. So I just took some photos and I make a note about that. And let's imagine a story about that. There is some paper planes on the street, you don't know why. And how could it be something? Or just a dream Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah. Benjamin: I have. I write a few notes. Or I was making the renovation in that room and we had to put some walls, work on the walls. And what if there was something behind the walls? Stuff like that. It's almost always around some scary stuff. But I don't want to make really a horrible stuff, a bit strange, know, and something that could be also nice to see as kids, but maybe a bit more, just like the frontier between a child story and horror story. I guess that's what I liked also as a kid with the books and so on. So I tried to write stuff like that or when there is a conversation or there is a... sentences that was interesting, I just write them, maybe it will become something. So I started to that a lot because before I was just like, we'll remember it or it's not that important. Now I just have maybe 20 notes and maybe two will be good, but Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah. Benjamin: they exist and maybe in two years it will be good with the other ones as well. So Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah. Benjamin: I try to just have something. to start if I don't have any idea. Okay, I did have that. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): I think that's a good tip for creatives, especially writers, beginning writers, is every idea can be good. It just might not be time for it right now. And sometimes you like I'm it sounds like we're very similar. I'll write down a couple sentences or I'll write down a thought, whatever. I don't ever I try not to ever say, ooh, I hope I remember it and I don't write it down because just don't do that. Write it down, give it an existence. And sometimes I can take two thoughts or three thoughts and move them around and come up with a more solid idea or story, you know. Don't ever throw those, don't don't take those for granted. Write those down. Benjamin: Exactly. And also it can be nice to just, you don't have to have the entire picture to start because I also see a lot of writing advice now because Instagram just understood that I wanted to write. So there is a lot of screenplay how to write. so it's really strong with that. I'm like, yeah. So I see Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): How many as for final draft? Benjamin: some interviews of of directors and stuff like that. And it's like, it can start with just a scene. So that's also what I made for the writing I'm doing right now. I can just have a scene, like the two kids are talking, and I just write that. And I don't really know where it will go before, after. it's pretty, I know that there is some key parts I will have, but then I have to write them. with the dialogues and so on. And then I would just rearrange and maybe some stuff would go just be deleted or just go down because it doesn't work with the story. But I try to not be, okay, I have to have my first chapter and then second and then third because it's too mechanical. And maybe people are able to do that, but I'm more like, there was like, I guess it says like the architect and the gardeners. like the two types of writers, the architect is really putting everything, the foundation before and the gardener is just searching and something is coming up. Yeah, Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Let's see what happens. Benjamin: but you have to be both at some point because if you're just Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: a gardener, you have to structure it afterwards and it could be more difficult in a way. But I like to do that that way just to have a few notes of, okay, there is this and that and that. But I don't really know how and even the ending I don't really know for now. I have a bit of an idea, but that's it. And then you just write a part, like a complete part. First scene and yeah, you just start to write people talking and it's pretty, I like to write people talking now because before it was like, Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Love talking. Benjamin: how can I avoid dialogues? That was kind of the goal at some point. I don't want to do dialogues. can't have some actors and so on. And now I just think about it as a story. So it could become a book. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Sure. Benjamin: It's possible. So with the book, you don't have to have voices. So you can just write it. Just write the story. Maybe it would become an illustrated book. It would be nice as well, because animation will take a lot longer. But yeah, just Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah, for real. Benjamin: if you want to have your story, you just write your story. And the medium can come later, I guess. But here I'm talking about personal stories. You don't have any budget. You don't have any destination. So if someone is paying you to make a script, maybe make a script. But if you don't have any idea, just a story, you Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah, have a little bit of structure. Yeah. Benjamin: just write. And also you need time to make the idea mature, I guess. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: And I've seen that with the current short film Beyond the Tides because I wrote it alone. It was four years ago now, just a few glimpses, a few drawings. And then I made a full animatic. It was a seven minutes long. And then I just write everything over with my wife, who is also working at CaliPeg. She makes the design, the interface and so on. So we just wrote it again together and it was like the same. the same core of the story, but really different. We added a character, we added a lot of emotions, because before it was like one guy, a cube, and then something happened with that, and that's it, just that guy, Johnny. And now we added a neighbor. So at first, he doesn't want to help the neighbor, and then he will think about it, and he will finish by... helping him, so making a community. So there was a lot of more subtleties, you Before it was just like, he takes the cubes, the cube is shiny, it's beautiful to see, so he's just curious about it. And now he's a collector of objects, and the cube is giving objects. So he wants to keep it, because it has something for him. And that's all the parts, Melanie added. because she knows more about stories and scenario and stuff like that. And I'm more about the visuals. I just have some visions, and I want to put them together. But now Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: we started to work together, and it's a lot more structured in a way. And she always tells me, OK, it's nice visually, but why? And I'm like, I don't really know. So sometimes, There is no why and it's okay, but in the story, you have to have at least, even if it's not a good way to behave for the character, he has to want it. It has to be logical in his mind. And sometimes I was like, Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. He has to be motivated for it, yeah. Benjamin: I don't really know why he did that. And there was no tension in a way. It was just like, he does stuff and that's it. So it was okay, it was Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: more contemplative and you know, but that was not really a nice story and now it's better. So with that experience of working two people, I just started to work like that also on my own story. And then I always check like, is it okay? So I have like another writer to give advice and feedback and that's also a nice way to work because when you're just alone. it can be difficult to have some, a bit more vision, broader vision of the writing. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah. Finding someone to give you really good constructive criticism is very, very helpful. Benjamin: Yeah. And also sometimes you don't want to, she's like, but why? also, that doesn't work because that, and I'm like, it's not pleasing me, but it's true. I have to, you know, I have to Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah. Benjamin: change because some other people will see that as well. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah, it's hard to see it's hard to see all the angles of the story, especially when you're the one writing it and you're taking things for granted. You're like, of course it makes sense in your head because it's living in your head. But if you give that story to someone else, they're gonna hopefully they'll be able to help you point out all the holes in the story. Well, this doesn't make sense because over there you did this and over there you did that, and blah blah blah. That's pretty cool that you got You got a a a partner that way. Benjamin: Yeah, it's really nice too, because I always show her I did that and just to see what other people think. And also show a lot of what I do online. So I make some live streams. So I made the animatic of the film on Twitch and YouTube. So people were like, is that the camera angle could do that? Or does it mean that? And I was like, no, so we have to change because I just understood. that it was not the right message. And for example, I have some example from my short film. I made a shot, I thought it was really nice, like the camera at the top in the corner of the house. And my wife told me, it looks like a camera from a supermarket or stuff like that. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Security camera. Benjamin: can give that feeling of someone is watching, you know. And it was not supposed to be that way. So we just decided to make it more simple, like more front. And also sometimes it was like, why do you cut at that moment? Why do you have two shots when you can have one shot? And I was like, yeah, it can be nice to just have him walk around the house with one shot, you know, to discover a bit of that without going and cutting everywhere. So really that kind of feedback with the feeling of it. And also it depends of what you do. But I also like to show what I make with other people like on Discord and also in live streams and just to show what is happening because sometimes I can have new ideas with people. And also it's a way to just continue to advertise your work in a way while you're Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Sure. Benjamin: working on it. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: But not always because sometimes I'm like in the live stream and I'm like, I Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): I don't feel like doing this. Benjamin: struggle to make stuff and I'm like, people are watching me struggle. It's a bit strange. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: And then I'm just alone and I'm like, okay, everything is different and I can do what I wanted to do. So it's a bit Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: different mood and you have to get a habit of it or just work on some parts. in the live, your color in the live. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: But if you really have to maybe write something, I don't write live because it's too strange to me. It's a personal thing. But some people are doing it. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Are there anyone is there anyone who sits there and types their stories out while streaming? Benjamin: I know that people are doing like it's a, they are not showing what they do, but they work, you just see them and it's like a write with me, you know. So I can understand that. But Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): okay. Yeah. Benjamin: maybe, I don't know, maybe there was some streamers writing a story and talking about how do we do that? maybe, Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: but it's a, it would be a bit strange for me to really write in a, yeah. Because it's really personal. You have to live this stuff and so on. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): For me too. Cause that yeah. When I write, it's out it's like I live my life with all these thoughts in my head, but there's a big door. And then when I go to write, I just open that door and I try to see what happens. And I just write, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, write. You know? And and like I can have I can have two people in a dialogue happening in my brain and I'm just writing it all down. He says that and she says that, she says that, da da da. Not all the time it makes sense, but yeah, you refine it later. Yeah. Benjamin: But you can refine it later. And your first draft can be only yours. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Is that is how's your process to go from writing all the way through to like animation? Do you have a certain set of software? Is there a certain process or is it kind of different every time you do it? Benjamin: I don't have a lot of experience in writing for now, for Beyond the Tides, I just worked with a storyboard at first. So it was drawing some nails and stuff like that. So that was for the first version and there was no text in that version. So I made the animatics, the music and so on. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): That's literally what do they call it? board driven. Benjamin: Yeah, it was a I did have the story in head and then I just started through and training front scenes and and the shots and then for the new version, it was like, OK, we add that. But I just I've written a script, really basic one. There is no just a description of what happens. And then I made some some storyboard thumbnails and then we discuss. to the two of us about that because it's also important to, I think, to have something to show and not just, okay, let's talk about the story. One of the members has to put something, I guess, to have something to talk about. Even with the images, it's, let's make images and you're just like, okay. But if you have, I've made Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): What image do you want to see? Benjamin: that, that's right, that's wrong. Yeah. You have to have a support of discussion. So for that, was a discussion and I've made the thumbnails while we were discussing. It was like, he can do that and maybe he's not leaving the object that way. He doesn't want to leave it. So why is he leaving the object? So change it like that. And for the new story, it's really text only for now. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Okay. Benjamin: It's not only only text because I have a sketchbook, a notebook, and I write some ideas and also a bit of sketches. But it's not storyboarding, just a few, like the eyes of a character. Yeah, Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Rough thumbnails, yeah. Benjamin: or just a drawing of the apartment, for example. Okay, the Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Benjamin: bedroom is here, the kitchen is here. Just to imagine the space of the story. But for now, it's writing. And then I will reorganize everything and maybe put some storyboard in it because I would like to make a folder of that to apply maybe to some founding and stuff like that. So I have to just have as many assets as I can. But for now, it's Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Benjamin: writing because it's also a side project and I still have to make the other movie. So the visuals, the visual part is beyond the tights and the writing part is the other project. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah. That's how I do it too. I have six or seven things happening all at the same time. It Benjamin: Mm. Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): it all depends on and then it depends on where they are. If I have any resources, like people resources that I can help that I can get to help on certain things, you know. But for me the structure the structure's Similar. I use a lot of the free apps that come on the iPad. I use reminders and notes, and then I link the two, and then I use like voice memos and stuff, and I try to keep all the notes all together in the same place. And then that way when depending on where it is, and I also have kind of like in reminders, I have a What's it like a collection of reminders? And it's each column is one column closer. The more you go to the right, the more finished the project is, right? So we go from idea to rough design to script writing to designing to whatever to whatever to whatever. And I just keep moving each one of the reminders to the right until I get it all the way done. So it It depends on if it's an animation, if it's a t-shirt design, if it's a writing thing, dah, dah, dah. It's all goes the structure of the software is the same, but the process is different depending on on the project. Benjamin: Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. It's that it's the production part that I need help with. because the creative part, like it's idea after idea after idea. It's just actually getting them. from idea from that first time you write it down to actually putting it on YouTube or wherever wherever it's going. That's the part, the flowing and keeping the projects running is is the part that gets difficult. Benjamin: That's also why I'm more and more impressed, maybe not impressed is the word, but to me writing like books or Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Benjamin: maybe the purest way because it's just you can make anything. just write and people read Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah. Benjamin: and they process and that's it. to me, it's incredible. Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. They do the hard work. Benjamin: So that's maybe the best way to just tell a story. And it's Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: really... So when I write, now I script, so I have the character name and the dialogue, but sometimes I just write as a novel Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Benjamin: and then I will structure it as a script. So it depends. But to me, it's really the most direct way to tell a story. And it's also, I think it's more... maybe more easy to do, at least when you begin, because you just write. And you don't have to think about, will I be able to make it? You just tell something and you can Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah. Benjamin: have dragons, you can have anything you want. And it's just a story. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. You can walk out and describe the sky is blue and then you don't have to worry about the color blue. You just let the r you let the reader hold that, Give them the responsibility. Benjamin: Hmm? White, blue. Yeah. It's really freeing process to just write and just imagine that people will just read it. And I think it's a way to just be able to express stuff and not thinking about making it because it's actually the making of it is just writing. Even if it's for a movie later, I guess. can be a way to approach it. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Part of my process too is working in Calapeg. because Calapeg, if you guys haven't used it yet, you guys, if you're interested in drawing or 2D animation at all, even if you don't fully complete it in in Calapeg, even if you're just doing the animatics in Calapeg, it's so helpful. I do so much work in front of the TV on my iPad, Benjamin: Hmm. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): whether it be writing, drawing, animating. And then the cool thing about Calipeg is you can take that file and export it to something like a blender. Benjamin: Yeah, it would be even better when there is the vector layer because we want it to be compatible with the grease pencil. So that's one of the parts of the vector layer. For now, the vector is still in beta testing. It should be there this year. And I guess once the vector is here, the grease pencil is just a vector file. So it should be possible. I already mixed Callipeg and Blender, I made a 2D, 3D test recently with a bird on the water. So it's not in the movie, but it's in the style of the movie. And that's also part of the organic process because I was at InMotion, event, animation event. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Benjamin: And I started to animate because I have to animate when I'm on a booth. present. So I'm like, okay, what am I animating? Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): No, come. Benjamin: So sometimes people are like, they are watching me doing really crappy stuff, because I just start Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: to have an idea and I just don't really know what to do. And then something is just coming. It was a bird surprised and then going back. I was like, it's nice enough. It's nice enough. So I have a rough from the booth. And then I made it clean. and I just exported it as a PNG sequence and I put it in a Blender Scene. And then I added some water, some rocks. I also animated a rock, making some splashes on the water. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Splash. Yeah. Benjamin: So I had to think about the technical part as well because for the movie, I have to make some waves, I have to make some rain. So I know that Blender can help with that. So I just searched... for ways to do that, I then textured everything by hand. And then I applied a paint filter to have kind of a gouache or watercolor style. So it was Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: like a pipeline test for the movie, but just from something that was not in the movie. And also it was a simple enough shot to make that it was not a character going through the camera and so on. So it was a pretty simple way to just test. And yeah, even with just a PNG sequence, you can have a 2D, 3D shot. But it would be better with the vector at some point. Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah, I'm excited. Right when I read that you guys are bringing Vector to Calapeg, I was like, that's it. That's you guys are creating everything that I was bag begging the Adobe developers for. I'm like, look, I appreciate the power of Vector. I really do. But there's a look that I'm looking for. Benjamin: Yeah, same. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): And even when I'm doing the little flip book animations and stuff like that, I want it to look like a pencil. I want bitmap. But there are times where I want it to be, you know, there are some animations you want it to be vector. You want it to be nice and crisp and clean like that. So when you guys did that or when you guys announced that, I was like, boy. Benjamin: Also, we are not really used to vector as filmmakers and animators because I've always worked in bitmap. Just in Blender, it's vector, but I'm not sure it's the same feeling as animate or harmony, maybe. But the goal is to have... It would be vector, so it would be like you draw, and then you have not exactly what you've drawn, just vector. but we will have the same brush textures. So you Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Nice. Benjamin: will be able to replace the pencil by ink, brush, stuff like that, to also draw with a fill. So you can just Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): That's cool. Benjamin: have a fill and then play with the curves. So I'm not really sure for now if we will have some interpolation in vectors. That could be cool. But for now, I don't know if it will be there. I've just seen the basics of you draw. There is some points, and you can... manage the curves and we are designing the panels of vector customization because there are some questions because if you, for example, to erase, is it an erase brush or is it an eraser setting within your drawing brush? You know, that kind of questions. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Benjamin: So the practicality versus the technical efficiency, Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: It really depends of what we would like to do. So there will be a beta testing phase. And we hope that we will get advice from people working more with vectors, because I'm so used to just, I'm drawing and that's yeah, vectors, it's a bit more complex than that. So also Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: with the camera that will come after the vector, do we have some system to make it like the closer you get, the thicker the line? Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): yeah. Benjamin: that's some possibility but we have to dig into that. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. That'd be cool. app itself is so already it's so powerful and so helpful. It's Benjamin: Thank you. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): you guys have done a really good job. And it blows my mind that it's four or five of you guys just sitting there in a dark room programming. It's amazing. It's amazing. Yeah. Benjamin: Yeah. Thank you very much. But it's a kind of journey as well because there is a lot of work to do and also you have to advertise it to make people know it. That's a big part of how you can make it work. So that's also a difficult part because we don't have the marketing money of some other software. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: Good for them, but we don't have that. So it's Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Right, right. Benjamin: a... We know how to, I think I know how to make videos about how to make animation, make people want to make animation, but then to tell them just buy that stuff. It's a bit more difficult, know, it's not really the same job, but I guess it's also what works for us. We're just like normal people, normal artists, just making Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: stuff also for us. because I've talked about the link between Kalipeg and Blender. I'm a big Blender user, so I was like, we should do some stuff, and also studios are pushing for that because more more studios are using Blender now. But the grease Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm-hmm. Benjamin: pencil timeline can be a bit more refined, so Kalipeg can be a compromise. You can have a simple 2D timeline, and then you have the technical complexity of Blender and all the... the power of it. So that's part of the goal I've talked at first to make something easy to plug on other tools, even for us. But it's a lot of questions and sometimes it's just three hours of how do we name a button and where does it go? We know that, for example, Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah. Benjamin: we also study, of course, other standards like We do brushes. Okay, let's see how Photoshop does it. How Procreate does it. How Clip Studio does it. What works. What could be maybe done in a more Calipeg way, let's say. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: So we try to simplify stuff sometimes. And sometimes it just, okay, it seems to be the standard. We see that in four different software. So maybe it's a way we have to stick to. And sometimes it's like, it's a standard, but... the feedback or telling that it's not really the nicest way to do. So since we are also a much younger software, we are just six, almost seven years old. So if you take Photoshop, it was built like 30 years ago. And sometimes Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: it was not, I don't really know the technical part of their history, but I guess you have some parts that are 30 years old in the software. So if you do Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yep. Benjamin: some... something, you can break something else like from way before. And we Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Sure. Yep. Benjamin: don't really have that problem because it was made from the start with recent technology and with flexible technology and some lighter languages and so on. it's a bit easier for us to navigate the new stuff. For example, we are GPU based and some other software are still CPU based. because of the old architecture of everything. that's also why it's good to be new in a way, because we just started with better tools maybe to just have Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: more efficient in memory and so on. We also are making a new compression system. I don't know how it works, honestly, because the dev knows. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: But we have the, it's still in bitmap, the differences here. We have a 10 gigabytes file like in 4K and so on. And with the new compression system, so it's not the compression we had before where it's zipped archive in a way and you have to open it again to work. Here it's open all the time and it's like 30 megabytes now. So it's really... a lot, lot tinier because the image Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: is compressed, but you don't really see the difference. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah. Benjamin: And before it was just the image, full size, and it was a lot of weight. So now it's really, really lighter. And with Vector, it will be also light files. it was one of the issues people talked about, like the files are too heavy. Okay, you can compress it, but then you have to uncompress it. And now it will be light all the time. So... Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Let's go. Benjamin: we are going towards the app we wanted to make at the start, the lighter with the camera and vector and everything. So yeah, it's a big time for us and we hope it will also motivate people to come to Calipay because it's affordable and it's just open to other stuff. You're not locked into it. So yeah, we just have to find people. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah, and that's that's a big one. The f the fact that it's not a membership, yet another membership. Benjamin: Hmm. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): And you guys listen, they have been killing this app. This app is so good. If you're interested in 2D animation at all, like Calapeg legitimately is is my first go to app. Benjamin: Thank you. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): I understand I understand procreate tried to come out with procreate dreams and it's just Benjamin: And also, it's simple to use. Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): not I tried. I tried really hard. It's just not there. it doesn't give me the control that I want that that Calapeg gives me. Benjamin: To be honest, Procreate Dreams is really good for finished animation. You have the effects, the compositing and stuff. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah, yeah, yeah. Benjamin: For example, in CaliPEG, we don't have FX layers for now, but we want at some point. I guess Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Sure. Benjamin: it's two different assets you can have. Since it's really cheap, both of them, for less than $40, you get both of them for life, basically. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): That's cheaper than one month of Photoshop. Benjamin: Yeah, and then you get Blender free open source and you just mix tools and yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): And that's it. You're in a studio. You have an animation studio. Benjamin: And also if people are maybe fearing a bit of is it difficult to use, we also use it with kids when we go to events and so on, sometimes in schools. So it's also a way to learn animation. So really the basics are really simple. Just go. You draw, it creates a new drawing. You go to the other one, you create a new drawing. You define the length of it. And that's basically Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yep. You can Benjamin: it. So you really have five minutes of introduction just to know that. And then you can see the two hours of documentation to know all the stuff. But the basics are really attainable for everyone. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah, I'm telling you. It's wonderful. And again, it's on the iPad. I can't I'm I'm I'm an iPad kid. I do everything Benjamin: Mm. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): on my iPad. I write, I draw, I animate, I do all the things. So between Calapeg and my notes app, like I'm just I'm an animation monster. Benjamin: Yeah, everything is light now. So also Android tablets are coming really powerful now with Uion, XP-Pen, Wacom now with the Move Ink. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yep. And you guys have it for desktop too, right? Benjamin: Yeah, it's Calipax Studio. Basically, the name is just because it's on bigger screens. And when we were talking about the name, was like DaVinci is the free version and DaVinci Studio. So I was like, maybe Studio is a nice way to set the more professional approach, but the features are the same on Tablet. It will just differ a bit with the interface, we will make like a Kalipeg V3 will be the uniformization of all the interfaces. So what you see in Kalipeg Studio is basically the new interface that will come to Tablet at some point. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: with the Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): okay. Benjamin: same, it will not be a different purchase, it will be like an update, but it will be a new interface with the customization of the tools. And we are currently making the design of like a universal design in a way that could adapt to phones as well. When you have a tenure, the tenure windows, elements are displayed in a nice way. For now, it was like really three different interfaces for three different formats. But now it would be one that adapts to all. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Cool. Is there gonna be a situation where if I'm drawing something on the iPad and I get to my office, I could just send it over to the desktop? Benjamin: You can already just export a .peg file. It's not synchronized Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: because you would have to have a cloud. We did some tests and if the files are in the cloud, can be bit laggy in the file itself because Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah. Benjamin: it's located elsewhere. But maybe with the lighter files, it will be better. We hope so. But yeah, you can just export the file. Technically, you can start on an iPhone, you export your Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): That's cool. Yeah. Benjamin: .peg file to iPad and then to your Windows or your Linux or your Mac. that's the same file, Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Perfect. Benjamin: there is no difference. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): That's amazing. I love it. Benjamin: And yeah, when we have the vector layer and camera layer, it will be more suited for storyboarding as well. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Gonna be so exciting. Benjamin: yeah, so 27 will be a big year for us because we will have the camera and so on. And now we are starting to go more to studios and schools to say, now it's on the desktop as well because the studios and school were like, OK, it's nice, but We don't have tablets. We have Windows and that's Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah, yeah. Benjamin: it. So now it's okay. You can get it to Windows. You can contact us to buy 20 of them if you want. And we just send it to you. it's a bit more simple now for schools and studios to... I was about to say to convert to KaliPEG, but it's more just adding KaliPEG in your pipeline. Yeah, Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): To just use it to add in caliper, yeah. Benjamin: because you don't have to convert everything to it because you just, it's just a new tool in your... in your kit, in your kit. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. And you guys still have the what is it? The the free testing period? Benjamin: No, was when there was a subscription, we had seven days, but now it's just one time purchase. And Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Okay. Benjamin: that's it. So it's like other apps basically. also it's also due to because we use some paid codecs for export and so on. So you have to pay each Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: download of the app, even if it's free. we are like if one million person are just downloading the free version and we have to send Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's ver Benjamin: money for the codec for each person without. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): that's really important that people like normal people don't realize anytime you're doing like Adobe has to do this too. like if you're writing a GIF image in a GIF format, whatever format it is that you're using, a lot of times you have to pay just to have that functionality in your app. It's not like go ahead. Benjamin: Yeah, there is some open formats like AVI or stuff like that. I guess it's open, but it's used and it's spread. maybe it will not be read with everything. So maybe we could add that. We also want to add some ProRes export, for example. But Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Mm. Benjamin: yeah, there is almost always a company, a group of people just owning a codec like MP4 or It's Us. It's a bit strange, but yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah. They have to pay their developers too though. Benjamin: Yeah, but I guess for some codecs it's made and it's not always evolving. So it's like Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah, that's true. Benjamin: owning a property and just you rent a bit of it. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. It's like making a record and that's the only thing that you make money off of is that record. Benjamin: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Makes sense. Benjamin: But yeah, the world of codecs Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Benjamin. Benjamin: is complex, I guess. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin, I know it's getting late there in France. So I want to thank you for taking time to come in and talk to us. take a Benjamin: Yeah, it's almost 10. No problem. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): couple minutes to let people know where they can find your your animations, your films, where they can watch you actually making films. Fill them in on everything that you have social media wise. Benjamin: Okay, so you can find my animation work on Instagram, basically, so just my name. I'm also on TikTok and LinkedIn everywhere, just sharing my animation interviews, tutorials. So that's more of the French part of it. And regarding the English part of it, you can go to calipeg.app on Instagram, or just calipeg on TikTok and YouTube. And that's where I... post the tutorials of Kalipeg, the announcements of the new features. And also we are making a bit less of them because it's a bit more difficult to find people for that. But we also have some interviews in English on the Kalipeg channel just to have some artists talking about it. And I'm also making some animation reviews. We do some challenges each month. And then I do animation reviews. of that, it's a long form on YouTube and then just tips on social media. So that's also something I have to make, which takes a lot of time. Just, okay, I have a 30-minute video. I will make 30 shots from that. Let's go. So Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: here are the subtitles of DaVinci Resolve are really, really important because it's Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: pretty accurate now, even with my accent. So it's nice. So yeah, basically... Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): What accent? Benjamin: no, no, nothing. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: It's completely invisible. No French here. And so, you can see all the Kalipec stuff on the Kalipec social media. And Kalipec is available on the iPad app store, Android tablets store, iPhone app store. It's not on Android phones for now, maybe someday. And also on Mac OS, it's Mac app store. Windows, it's a Steam and Microsoft Store. And on Steam, it's also for Linux. So yeah, you can get it on basically any store. It's also on Huawei Tablets, there's the app gallery, for example. So we try to be really every app store possible. And yes, there is also my website, bajamaserbe.com, to see my demo reel, to see my portfolio, basically. And... That's it. And for the live, that's also my name on YouTube. It's my secondary channel. And on Twitch, just my name as well. And I do some streaming French in French time. So Wednesday at night, from 9 to 11. And on Fridays, 10 AM to 2 PM. And I just draw, animate, do 3D, talk about animation with what people are. giving me to review. So it's really nice. And I do that since I have been doing that for three years now, I guess, so it's also a nice way to just still continue to work and have some discussion with people at the same time. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): It gives you an an excuse to keep working on your projects, yeah. Benjamin: Yeah, just have to do my visual development, but I will also talk with people. And there is some like old, a long time viewers. So we just know the name now and so on. And it's also strange when you see them in real life, because it's like, I follow your live. Okay, do you talk? Yeah, I'm a robot 32. robot 32, yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Hey, what's up, man? Benjamin: And because he knows you, but you don't know him. He's like no robot. So Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah. Benjamin: yeah, it's strange sometimes to meet people, but it's nice. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah. It's exciting though. I I really do love drawing. I and I drawing it. I really do love drawing in public. Getting that that live feedback from people. no, do like this. no, do like that. And it's just fun to watch people get into more and more into what you're putting on that paper. It's Benjamin: Yeah. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): really cool. Benjamin: And they are drawing at the same time as well. So sometimes I'm like, no one is talking in the chat. And some people are telling, Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: I'm animating, can't talk, but I'm here. Exactly. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah, I'm concentrating. Benjamin: Sometimes you're like, do you hear me or not? Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: Because you're you are 20 people and there is no one talking. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. I used to I used to stream on Twitch and I would be concentrating, you know, have to you have to put yourself out there. If you're gonna be streaming art, whatever, talking while you're drawing and stuff, just get yourself out there and and it's you just you just have to jump in the water and swim. That's no easier way to do it. And Benjamin: Yeah, And you will get your style as well. I tend to talk a lot in the streams Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: because I'm like, if people are here, they want me to talk, I guess. And some people Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: are just drawing for three hours. They say three sentences and that's it. And people are like, Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: great, because I can work at the same time. So Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: you will find your own voice. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Yeah. Get out there. Some someone told me what's the name? The the guy who paints with the curly hair. Benjamin: Bubbrous, maybe? Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Bob Ross. Yeah. They said, You you remind me of Bob Ross. You're just so calm. And I'm like, I'm not really calm. I'm just nervous right now. Benjamin: Maybe he was too. Inside he was like... Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Yeah. Benjamin: And people are like, wow, what a Zen guy. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): yeah. if you can hear my voice, please go check out Benjamin's website. Please go check out his videos. You're gonna love his work. you my friend, Benjamin: Thank you. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): you are You're just incredible. You're incredible. I love that you're I love that Benjamin: Thank you very much. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): you've followed your passion and and that you're creating tools and helping others follow their passions too. And I think especially in a world like today, that that is so important. So thank you. And thank the team too. Benjamin: Yeah, will do them, yeah. Of course. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Cool. Benjamin: Thank you very much. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): Thanks again, Benjamin. And I hope to see you again soon. Benjamin: Yeah, it's pleasure. Carlos Gomez (Coconut Justice): And with that, everybody, we're out.