Latest / Sales Pipeline Radio / Rethinking Demand Gen When the Funnel Starts Earlier

Transcript

Rethinking Demand Gen When the Funnel Starts Earlier · Sales Pipeline Radio

• 0:16
  Matt Heinz: All right.
• 0:17
  Let's break the seal, Josh.
• 0:18
  Josh Baez: Dun,
• 0:18
  dun, dun,
• 0:19
  dun.
• 0:19
  Matt Heinz: First episode recorded here, live on the marketplace
• 0:23
  floor at 2026 Forrester B2B Summit, right by the giant boot.
• 0:28
  This is the most exciting part about being at places this year.
• 0:30
  Josh Baez: The giant boot is iconic.
• 0:31
  Matt Heinz: The giant boot has been in this convention center for
• 0:33
  as long as I've been coming here.
• 0:35
  It's—
• 0:35
  Josh Baez: The convention center was built around the giant boot.
• 0:37
  I've heard.
• 0:37
  Matt Heinz: The giant boot was here to start, right.
• 0:39
  Josh Baez: That's right.
• 0:39
  Matt Heinz: That is an ancient artifact from long ago, back
• 0:43
  when giants roamed the land.
• 0:44
  That's an actual boot from one of the titans.
• 0:48
  And it's still here, which is incredible.
• 0:50
  I wish it was a little bigger.
• 0:51
  The Forrester folks are like, "Is it okay that you're next to the boot?" I
• 0:53
  said, "You should make it bigger so it—"
• 0:54
  Josh Baez: They should make it—
• 0:55
  bigger every
• 0:55
  year.
• 0:55
  Matt Heinz: I wanna be able to see it — from all the way over on the other side
• 0:58
  — Josh Baez: That's right
• 0:58
  — Matt Heinz: of the show floor.
• 0:59
  That would be way more exciting, but—
• 1:00
  — Josh Baez: when we're all gone, the boot will remain.
• 1:02
  Matt Heinz: The boot will be here.
• 1:03
  I think they just like… It just — it's probably cemented in there.
• 1:05
  I don't think you can move the boot.
• 1:07
  The boot is now part of this.
• 1:08
  For those of you listening to this — you know, our podcast is audio only
• 1:11
  if we're not doing LinkedIn Live.
• 1:12
  I wish you could see the boot.
• 1:13
  We'll probably take a picture of the boot.
• 1:14
  I'll post a picture of the boot.
• 1:14
  Josh Baez: Theater of the mind
• 1:15
  Matt Heinz: with the boot, yeah.
• 1:15
  Yeah, theater of the mind.
• 1:16
  It's a giant… It literally is like a 15-foot—
• 1:17
  Josh Baez: Yeah, we'll do a little selfie
• 1:18
  — Matt Heinz: tall boot.
• 1:21
  But we're not here to talk about boots.
• 1:22
  Josh, not sure what we're here to talk about, but we're here.
• 1:26
  Josh Baez: It's time for something.
• 1:26
  Matt Heinz: Josh Baez, who is — my notes say senior manager, not so much.
• 1:31
  Newly minted director—
• 1:33
  — of demand generation for Netline.
• 1:34
  Josh Baez: Ooh, it's
• 1:34
  so new, it's so fresh.
• 1:35
  Matt Heinz: It sounds so nice.
• 1:37
  Josh Baez: That sounds nice.
• 1:37
  Matt Heinz: Josh Baez, thanks for joining us here.
• 1:39
  Josh Baez: Oh, I love to be here, Matt.
• 1:42
  Matt Heinz: This is fun.
• 1:42
  This conference is one that I look forward to every year.
• 1:45
  It's kind of like B2B reunion.
• 1:46
  I used to call it B2B prom back when it was — SiriusDecisions — 'cause they
• 1:50
  would literally have the green tie gala, and everyone would get dressed
• 1:53
  up and go, and they'd have a banquet.
• 1:56
  Like, who does banquets anymore?
• 1:57
  But they used to have a banquet.
• 1:58
  Not banquet.
• 1:59
  They got a band, so there's a band tomorrow.
• 2:00
  Josh Baez: The—
• 2:00
  Fray.
• 2:01
  Matt Heinz: This is pretty cool.
• 2:02
  Josh Baez: But it's not the lead singer anymore.
• 2:04
  Matt Heinz: Really?
• 2:04
  Josh Baez: Yeah, he left.
• 2:05
  Matt Heinz: Oh.
• 2:05
  Where'd he go?
• 2:06
  Josh Baez: I think he went, like, he's doing some solo stuff.
• 2:09
  Matt Heinz: Can we make some calls?
• 2:10
  Josh Baez: That's right.
• 2:10
  We should.
• 2:10
  Matt Heinz: Like, make a little surprise, get him back.
• 2:12
  Oh, man.
• 2:13
  I mean, they do a good job.
• 2:14
  Shout-out to Forrester for putting together a good experience.
• 2:17
  You come to learn a lot, learn from your peers, see some good vendors.
• 2:20
  I think — was it a couple years ago, they had Gary Clark Jr.?
• 2:23
  Josh Baez: Oh, that was fun.
• 2:23
  Matt Heinz: That was such a good show.
• 2:25
  So, yeah.
• 2:26
  No, excited for the next couple days.
• 2:27
  We have over 20 guests signed up to interview here at Sales Pipeline Radio.
• 2:33
  We're live next to the giant boot.
• 2:35
  Excited to start with Josh Baez.
• 2:37
  And, Josh, there's so many things we could cover today.
• 2:40
  Maybe first just a little bit about what you've been thinking about
• 2:43
  lately, what you've been doing.
• 2:44
  Josh Baez: Yeah.
• 2:44
  So I'm the director of demand generation at a company called Netline.
• 2:48
  For those of us who may not be aware of who Netline is, we do programmatic
• 2:53
  lead gen and content syndication.
• 2:54
  So essentially, enabling our customers to get their content out in front of
• 3:00
  their buyers, in the trusted research libraries, research publications, where
• 3:06
  they are spending a lot of their time.
• 3:07
  So a lot of what I've been thinking about recently is how the heck
• 3:12
  do I get more pipeline out of the demand gen work that I do?
• 3:16
  It's not getting any easier these days, is it?
• 3:18
  Matt Heinz: No, it is not.
• 3:19
  All the data I see says that conversion rates are going down,
• 3:23
  sales cycles are going longer, buying journeys are getting bigger.
• 3:27
  Which actually, I think, from a content consumption standpoint, it
• 3:32
  actually is good news for those that are able to focus on signals and
• 3:35
  triggers, and look for ways to engage prospects beyond the, quote-unquote,
• 3:39
  "traditional lead gen," right?
• 3:40
  Like, we're way past the day where you put up a form, someone fills it
• 3:44
  out for a white paper, you have a 22-year-old call them four times a
• 3:46
  day until they acquiesce to a meeting.
• 3:50
  Much more interesting to let the buyer lead.
• 3:54
  And I think there's a level to which the content game and content consumption
• 3:58
  becomes a very interesting buyer enablement story, which reduces the
• 4:03
  friction between you as a brand and seller and what the buyers are trying to do.
• 4:06
  Talk a little bit about what that means and how companies can lean into that.
• 4:10
  Josh Baez: Yeah, I mean, I think it's honestly probably a really
• 4:14
  exciting time, in my opinion, to be in B2B marketing right now because
• 4:20
  of all of these things that are being measured consistently, right?
• 4:23
  You have conversion rates, you have pipeline goals, you have
• 4:28
  SQLs, opportunities, all this stuff that gets measured to death.
• 4:34
  And I think because that stuff is becoming so hard, you really need to kind of pull
• 4:38
  back and focus more on the brand story.
• 4:41
  I think that we're starting to see a lot of companies go back to good old-fashioned
• 4:46
  brand marketing, programmatic display, things around how do you reach those
• 4:52
  buyers much earlier, even pre-funnel?
• 4:55
  How are you shaping those decisions before they end up in someone's shortlist?
• 4:59
  We have a lot of research on that.
• 5:02
  I think it was something like 86% of buyers already start any
• 5:07
  decision-making process with a shortlist, and I think it was, like, 92% end
• 5:13
  up deciding from that shortlist.
• 5:16
  So whatever you can do — whether it's content, whether it's brand, whether it's
• 5:21
  things like being here at the Forrester Summit — there's a lot of things that
• 5:26
  are being re-looked at with a new lens.
• 5:29
  Matt Heinz: Well, and I think we can get really pessimistic about what
• 5:32
  people do and don't do with content.
• 5:33
  We assume, oh, they download the whitepaper, they never read it.
• 5:35
  That's actually not true.
• 5:36
  The average buyer spends more than 30 hours consuming content
• 5:40
  that they've already requested.
• 5:42
  And I think sometimes we also think, well, it's only junior people that are
• 5:44
  downloading content and reading content.
• 5:45
  No — C-suite registrations on Netline have jumped 27% year over year.
• 5:51
  So talk about the decision-makers, the senior decision-makers, and
• 5:54
  how content consumption still needs to be at the forefront of how
• 5:58
  people engage with that audience.
• 6:00
  Josh Baez: Yeah.
• 6:00
  So every year, Netline has this content consumption report.
• 6:05
  It's basically taking all of the signals that are on the Netline
• 6:09
  platform and consolidating it into something where we can see trends.
• 6:14
  This year, we saw there was around 7 million buying interactions
• 6:19
  happening on the Netline platform.
• 6:20
  We saw from that, that on average, it takes around 48 hours for
• 6:28
  a user of any background to basically register for a piece of content,
• 6:32
  and then eventually open it.
• 6:33
  So you have 48 hours in between where someone may have downloaded your asset
• 6:38
  — but they haven't opened it yet.
• 6:39
  And then you haven't even factored into the time how long it takes
• 6:42
  for them to read it, and then how much longer it takes for them to
• 6:45
  actually digest that information.
• 6:47
  So what it comes down to for us is, when you are having content
• 6:52
  these days, it's less about the act of filling out the form.
• 6:56
  And it needs to be about everything that you're doing pre, during, and after that
• 7:00
  form fill that really kind of makes or breaks whether or not that asset is gonna
• 7:05
  be worth spending the time and money into.
• 7:07
  Matt Heinz: When people think content syndication, when they think about
• 7:10
  assets that they put out there, we hear — do you get the whitepaper term
• 7:14
  gets plugged up all the time, right?
• 7:15
  Like, the four to five page, "Here's my ideas." Okay, fine.
• 7:19
  I think consistently one of the best formats is a playbook, right?
• 7:23
  Not just ideas, not frameworks, but how do you actually do this?
• 7:27
  That same report you mentioned, the content consumption gaps, shows
• 7:30
  that playbooks are more than twice as likely to drive purchase intent
• 7:34
  versus the average piece of content.
• 7:37
  Why does the playbook format work so well as a buying signal?
• 7:41
  Josh Baez: Oh, I mean, there's probably a lot of reasons.
• 7:45
  I think that something that we really
• 7:50
  look for when it comes to a playbook is, how do you actually get something done?
• 7:55
  Reading about ideas is all fun and good.
• 7:58
  It's great for when you're trying to find inspiration for your next big thing.
• 8:04
  But a playbook actually tells you, "Here's how.
• 8:06
  Here are the steps to get things done.
• 8:08
  Here is what has worked for other customers in the past.
• 8:11
  Maybe it can work for you, too." I think especially in an age where
• 8:15
  AI is so prevalent, in how people research, it's table stakes now.
• 8:22
  But you still need actionable things to be able to just tell you, "Here are the
• 8:27
  steps to get something done, right now."
• 8:30
  Matt Heinz: We're live on the Forrester B2B Summit floor next to the giant
• 8:34
  boot, with our first guest on Sales Pipeline Radio this year here.
• 8:37
  Josh Baez is the Director of Demand Gen at Netline.
• 8:40
  You've talked about the difference between what technology's accelerating
• 8:44
  and some of the evergreen components of the buying journey — specifically
• 8:48
  that AI's accelerating buyer behaviors rather than creating new ones.
• 8:52
  Talk
• 8:55
  about the difference between the tool and the behavior, and why that's so important.
• 8:59
  Josh Baez: Yeah, that's a fascinating question.
• 9:00
  For me, when I think about how AI has impacted how people make decisions, if
• 9:05
  anything, it's revealed how inconsistently we as humans find and search for answers.
• 9:14
  Before you had to really kind of formulate a really good Google search.
• 9:18
  And you have to have your quotation marks and your citation in
• 9:22
  order to find some good answers.
• 9:23
  I mean, today I just type in my Google search and then I put Reddit at the end.
• 9:29
  But when it comes to AI, it's like you can just top of the dome into the mic.
• 9:34
  That is how people are trying to research now, and so I think if anything, it's
• 9:38
  like you and your content — it needs to be a lot more accessible in that way.
• 9:44
  Otherwise, AI's not gonna pick it up.
• 9:46
  People aren't gonna find it.
• 9:47
  They're not gonna understand it in the same way.
• 9:52
  Matt Heinz: Yeah, that's for sure.
• 9:53
  And I think that, for those that are sleeping on Reddit in B2B — if
• 9:58
  you're sleeping on Reddit, it probably means you're old like me and don't
• 10:00
  really understand it very well.
• 10:01
  But the kids who are increasingly decision-makers in all of
• 10:04
  your purchase processes—
• 10:05
  Josh Baez: That's right
• 10:06
  — Matt Heinz: or all of your selling engagements
• 10:07
  — Josh Baez: they're—
• 10:08
  Reddit maxing, as the kids
• 10:08
  say
• 10:08
  — Matt Heinz: they're Reddit maxing.
• 10:09
  Oh, boy.
• 10:09
  We're getting into things that we're gonna — terms we're gonna ban from
• 10:13
  CMO, or from Sales Pipeline Radio.
• 10:15
  Maxing might be one of those.
• 10:17
  It's coming fairly soon.
• 10:19
  So some of you listening may know this — Josh and I used to work together.
• 10:23
  He was an employee at Heinz Marketing for a while.
• 10:26
  And now he's a big shot and doing all kinds of—
• 10:27
  Josh Baez: That's right.
• 10:28
  Matt Heinz: He's a big shot — amazing things, speaking
• 10:29
  everywhere, publishing everywhere.
• 10:31
  It's pretty fun to watch.
• 10:33
  We're — where do you feel, given where you're at a lot of these events, where do
• 10:37
  you think the future of marketing lies?
• 10:39
  I think there's a lot of existential conversations people are having about
• 10:42
  — creating an AI VP of marketing and, you know, how many of these are we gonna have
• 10:46
  left to go before the robots take over?
• 10:49
  What's your prediction for where B2B marketing goes from here?
• 10:53
  Josh Baez: Oh man, we can really get existential with this, can't we?
• 10:55
  Matt Heinz: Yeah, feel free.
• 10:57
  Josh Baez: I mean, I think it's a really tough question, and it's a scary question
• 11:02
  too because, for one, I need a job.
• 11:05
  I don't wanna be—
• 11:06
  Matt Heinz: Same
• 11:06
  — Josh Baez: prophesizing—
• 11:07
  Matt Heinz: Right
• 11:08
  — Josh Baez: myself out of a job.
• 11:09
  I have a wife and family back home.
• 11:13
  I don't know, man.
• 11:13
  It's like the way that AI has exploded onto the scene, it's caused a lot of
• 11:21
  fear, like rightfully so, but I do think that come a few years, it's going to
• 11:27
  be in the same way that kind of like ABM tech came onto the scene — where
• 11:34
  everyone… I think that you posted about this recently on LinkedIn, or maybe I
• 11:38
  saw a comment of yours, where in the same way that you had ABM strategists
• 11:42
  come in — I think that your AI's gonna have to become part of your workflow.
• 11:46
  Matt Heinz: Yeah.
• 11:48
  Josh Baez: I don't believe that AI takes over jobs in the same way that it may
• 11:56
  influence and take over other industries.
• 11:58
  I don't think that it's going away.
• 12:02
  If anything, it's like how are you using it to heighten—
• 12:07
  — and improve your own processes?
• 12:08
  Matt Heinz: Yeah.
• 12:09
  Well, we could get existential, or we could just get a little
• 12:12
  curmudgeonly on this topic too.
• 12:14
  I think those that are saying AI is taking over marketing and the
• 12:18
  marketing, even the CMO job — when they describe what they're taking over,
• 12:21
  it's like a junior demand gen role.
• 12:23
  It's like a performance—
• 12:24
  Yeah.
• 12:24
  Josh Baez: I think you're not a—
• 12:24
  good marketer
• 12:25
  — Matt Heinz: if you're just doing performance marketing.
• 12:26
  Well, I mean, you could be good at performance marketing, but you go
• 12:29
  ask a company that's doing enterprise sales with 12 to 18 month sales
• 12:32
  cycles — it's not just optimizing the ads you're putting up on Facebook.
• 12:37
  I also do think AI is going to replace average marketers.
• 12:42
  Josh Baez: Yeah.
• 12:43
  Matt Heinz: I do think AI is going to get rid of the work that none of us
• 12:46
  really wanted to do in the first place.
• 12:48
  Like, I have 20 dossiers that I'm using for these interviews
• 12:52
  that were started by Claude.
• 12:54
  I had to go in and fix a bunch of stuff, but my first job at a PR firm years
• 12:58
  ago was writing briefing books for road shows we would take clients on.
• 13:02
  No one writes those anymore.
• 13:02
  Josh Baez: Oh, I remember writing those briefs.
• 13:04
  Matt Heinz: Yeah.
• 13:05
  Right?
• 13:05
  Josh Baez: Back in the day for you, Matt.
• 13:07
  Matt Heinz: So, it was a necessary
• 13:09
  part of the process still, but I don't need a person to do that, right?
• 13:13
  And so now instead of me spending time on that, I can spend time actually talking
• 13:17
  to prospects and talking to clients and doing the things that I actually enjoy
• 13:20
  doing that actually give me fulfillment as well as further the business, so—
• 13:23
  Josh Baez: If anything, I think that it's also making the need for these
• 13:27
  kinds of in-person and brand experiences
• 13:31
  — that much more crucial.
• 13:32
  Because in a world where you are no longer defined by what you're creating
• 13:40
  necessarily — it's like, how are you making those relationships really stick?
• 13:44
  Matt Heinz: Yeah.
• 13:45
  Josh Baez: 'Cause that's all we got, man.
• 13:48
  Matt Heinz: That is all we have.
• 13:49
  Well, on that note, let's wrap this one up.
• 13:51
  Josh, thank you so much for joining us.
• 13:53
  First episode, you set a high bar here.
• 13:55
  High bar next to the tall boot.
• 13:58
  And thanks for — have a great rest of your conference.
• 14:00
  What do you got going next — we got The Fray coming up
• 14:02
  tomorrow, which is exciting.
• 14:03
  Josh Baez: But tonight, if you're listening to this, I don't
• 14:06
  know when this is gonna air.
• 14:07
  Matt Heinz: Not by early — not by tomorrow.
• 14:09
  Not by tonight,
• 14:09
  Josh Baez: All right.
• 14:09
  Well, I'm gonna talk about it as if it is—
• 14:11
  Matt Heinz: Please do
• 14:11
  — Josh Baez: gonna air right now.
• 14:12
  Matt Heinz: It was a wonderful event.
• 14:13
  Josh Baez: That's right.
• 14:13
  Matt Heinz: Oh, my goodness.
• 14:14
  Yeah.
• 14:14
  I had so much fun there.
• 14:15
  Josh Baez: Planetarium party at the Arizona Science Center.
• 14:18
  Yeah.
• 14:18
  Oh, man, we saw the dome lit up in all of its glory.
• 14:22
  But yeah, man, I—
• 14:23
  Matt Heinz: What if that doesn't happen?
• 14:24
  Do we have to come back and edit this?
• 14:25
  'Cause I don't like editing.
• 14:26
  I just want—
• 14:26
  — this to be one take.
• 14:26
  Josh Baez: No, no, man, it's gonna happen.
• 14:27
  It's gonna be great.
• 14:28
  Matt Heinz: Okay, there's gonna be a dome, there's gonna be stars, fake stars.
• 14:30
  The stars—
• 14:30
  Josh Baez: I heard that The Fray might make an
• 14:32
  appearance.
• 14:32
  Matt Heinz: The Fray might make an appearance.
• 14:34
  We might have athletes there.
• 14:36
  Josh Baez: That's right.
• 14:36
  Matt Heinz: A Kardashian or four.
• 14:38
  We don't know.
• 14:39
  We don't know.
• 14:39
  We don't know.
• 14:39
  You gotta—
• 14:40
  — show up to find out.
• 14:40
  Josh Baez: You'll have to show up.
• 14:41
  Matt Heinz: Even Josh doesn't know.
• 14:42
  There could be secrets.
• 14:43
  Josh Baez: I don't know anything.
• 14:43
  Matt Heinz: No, none of us.
• 14:44
  We're all making this up.
• 14:45
  All right.
• 14:45
  Thank you everyone for joining this episode.
• 14:47
  We'll be back for 19 more.
• 14:49
  This — we're just getting started.
• 14:50
  Josh Baez: Good luck.
• 14:50
  Matt Heinz: We'll see y'all next time.
• 14:51
  Josh Baez: Thank you.