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BRYAN KOHBERGER DEATH PENALTY SHOWDOWN, DEMANDS TRIAL IN "LIBERAL" BOISE · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:00
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
0:06
Speaker 2: Brian Coberger is a death penalty showdown, demanding in court
0:12
Speaker 2: his trial be moved to Liberal Boise. Good evening, I'm
0:18
Speaker 2: Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being
0:21
Speaker 2: with us.
0:21
Speaker 3: Brian Coberger's defense files for a trial venue change, citing extensive,
0:28
Speaker 3: ongoing and inflammatory publicity. Will the motion be successful?
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Speaker 1: Okay? He wants to move to liberal Boise.
0:37
Speaker 2: Well, it's my understanding that Boise repeatedly votes in a
0:42
Speaker 2: conservative manner.
0:44
Speaker 1: So what's liberal about Boise? Well, first of all, listen
0:48
Speaker 1: to this.
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Speaker 4: Our defense team firmly, and I mean firmly believes in
0:55
Speaker 4: mister Coberger's in a sense, and right now he's being
0:59
Speaker 4: held to have a trial.
1:01
Speaker 5: In a county that believes that he is guilty. If
1:04
Speaker 5: you deny a change of venue, mister Cooberger's constitutional right
1:07
Speaker 5: to a fair trial is denied.
1:09
Speaker 1: Demanding a change of venue.
1:13
Speaker 2: Hold on just a moment before we get into the
1:17
Speaker 2: legalities of Brian Coberger demanding a change of venue in
1:20
Speaker 2: a death penalty showdown. Straight out to Joe Scott Morgan,
1:23
Speaker 2: Professor of Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath
1:27
Speaker 2: My feet on Amazon, host of a hit series Bodybags
1:31
Speaker 2: with Joe Scott Morgan. I can go on, but Joe
1:35
Speaker 2: Scott Morgan, you had a really interesting insight about moving
1:42
Speaker 2: the trial to boys. Everybody may wonder why am I
1:46
Speaker 2: asking for expert a legal question, but hold your horses,
1:51
Speaker 2: Joe Scott jump in.
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Speaker 6: Yeah, all the forensic pathologist has to do is grab
1:55
Speaker 6: their car keys and drive right down the street or
1:57
Speaker 6: maybe even walk across the street, because that's where the
2:01
Speaker 6: autopsies were actually done on the four victims, and so
2:06
Speaker 6: it's not going to be a real heavy lift for
2:08
Speaker 6: them and have them there. And just imagine that, just
2:11
Speaker 6: for a second, Nancy, this idea that they're going to
2:15
Speaker 6: move this venue there where these four beautiful children were
2:20
Speaker 6: actually examined after the brutality that they sustained allegedly at
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Speaker 6: Coburger's hands.
2:26
Speaker 1: Howard Bloom joining us.
2:27
Speaker 2: You probably know him very well by now, all of
2:31
Speaker 2: you legal eagles, because I sure do. I felt like
2:35
Speaker 2: I knew before I ever actually met him on air,
2:38
Speaker 2: because he's the author of When the Night Comes Falling,
2:42
Speaker 2: a requiem for the Idaho student murders. You can find
2:45
Speaker 2: him at Howard Bloom dot com that's spelled b Lum Howard.
2:50
Speaker 2: What do you make of the change of venue motion.
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Speaker 7: I think it's a very cynical move by the defense.
2:55
Speaker 7: What they're trying to do, ultimately is by time. Whether
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Speaker 7: the trial takes place in Moscow, where it should take place,
3:02
Speaker 7: where the community needs to have its literally wounds healed,
3:08
Speaker 7: or it takes place in Boise is not going to
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Speaker 7: make a difference to the verdict. Whether the forensic xectisameters
3:15
Speaker 7: can get there quicker or they have to drive several
3:19
Speaker 7: hours to get there, that doesn't.
3:20
Speaker 8: Make a difference.
3:21
Speaker 7: It's all going to come down to the evidence.
3:23
Speaker 2: Well, one thing about when you have the medical examiner
3:27
Speaker 2: sitting right across the street, there may be a certain
3:31
Speaker 2: familiarity amongst the population with that medical examiner. I know
3:36
Speaker 2: who our medical examiner is. But I want you to
3:38
Speaker 2: listen very carefully to what Coburger's defense attorney, An Taylor
3:42
Speaker 2: says one more time.
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Speaker 4: Our defense team firmly, and I mean firmly, believes in
3:51
Speaker 4: mister Coberger's in a sense, and right now he's being
3:55
Speaker 4: held to have a trial in a county that believes
3:59
Speaker 4: that he is guilty.
4:00
Speaker 5: If you deny a change of venue. Mister Coberger's constitutional
4:03
Speaker 5: right to a fair trial is Tony.
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Speaker 2: She believes that firmly. Okay, what does the prosecution say.
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Speaker 9: Listen, we at least owe Leaytak County, people of Lake
4:14
Speaker 9: Talk County, the attempt to see the journey here first,
4:18
Speaker 9: and not just relying on There's been a lot of publicity,
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Speaker 9: There's been a lot of polistic It's not re Moscow,
4:23
Speaker 9: it's not Latah County, it's everywhere. So I don't think
4:26
Speaker 9: that a change of venue is going to solve any
4:29
Speaker 9: of these problems. And the state's position on venue is
4:33
Speaker 9: that the case should be held here. It's a Layta
4:36
Speaker 9: County case. We believe that we can select an appropriate
4:41
Speaker 9: paneled jurors from La Tau County.
4:43
Speaker 2: And believe it or not, coult Mom Lorie Valo, and
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Speaker 2: I believe her fourth husband, the prophet Chad Dabail, have
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Speaker 2: somehow reared their ugly as in the middle of the
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Speaker 2: Coburger prosecution list.
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Speaker 10: And experts believe the judge will have a hard time
5:01
Speaker 10: denying the change of venue due to both extreme public
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Speaker 10: interest in the case and tight connections in Moscow to
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Speaker 10: both law enforcement and the University of Idaho. The recent
5:12
Speaker 10: decisions to move both Lori Vallo and Chad Dave Belth
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Speaker 10: cases from Fremont to Ada County due to publicity may
5:19
Speaker 10: further push the judge to side with Taylor and to
5:23
Speaker 10: prove the change of venue.
5:24
Speaker 2: Straight out to high profile lawyer in this jurisdiction. She
5:28
Speaker 2: practices in both Idaho, Idaho and Utah. Stephanie Pitcher from
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Speaker 2: Parker Maconco Law firm. Stephanie who important for my purposes?
5:38
Speaker 2: Former felony prosecutor Stephanie.
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Speaker 1: They always ask for a change a venue.
5:45
Speaker 2: I'm not surprised, but given Boise's track record, I mean,
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Speaker 2: when you don't know a horse, look at the track record,
5:52
Speaker 2: why do they.
5:52
Speaker 1: Want to move to Boise?
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Speaker 2: Do you believe it's because they think they'll get a
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Speaker 2: better shot at a liberal jury. When I say liberal,
6:01
Speaker 2: I'm not talking about who you're going to vote for.
6:04
Speaker 2: I'm talking about how you view the system, Like for instance, Stephanie.
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Speaker 2: No way, when I put somebody on the jury that
6:13
Speaker 2: didn't have a job, or that did not had not
6:16
Speaker 2: had a job, or was not retired. If I had
6:22
Speaker 2: a stay at home mom, usually they wanted to get
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Speaker 2: off the jury pool. Because they were worried sick about
6:26
Speaker 2: their child. But if I had one, I wanted one
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Speaker 2: that had worked before.
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Speaker 1: Why, Because they have.
6:33
Speaker 2: A sense of duty, They show up on time, they
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Speaker 2: do their job. I don't want somebody that sits at
6:39
Speaker 2: home watching cartoons all day, you know, eating pop tarts,
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Speaker 2: not interested. I don't want anybody that's had a run
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Speaker 2: in with police before, that has been prosecuted, convicted, or
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Speaker 2: has a dear loved one that has been prosecuted or convicted.
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Speaker 2: I mean, there are a lot, there's a lot that
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Speaker 2: goes into picking a jury.
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Speaker 1: So what is there? What are they up to, Stephanie?
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Speaker 11: Sure, yeah, And I'll add it's not just how someone
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Speaker 11: sees the system, but it may also be how these
7:06
Speaker 11: individuals view the death penalty. And I certainly think that
7:08
Speaker 11: that has something to do with their thinking. But ultimately,
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Speaker 11: I think what the defense is hoping for is a
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Speaker 11: larger jury pool, a larger community of people to pull
7:17
Speaker 11: from in order to potentially see the jury. And all
7:20
Speaker 11: of those things are going to come out in for
7:22
Speaker 11: a dire If individual has been previously convicted, if they
7:25
Speaker 11: have a relationship with law enforcement, and so the defense
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Speaker 11: is hoping that they have a larger pool of people
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Speaker 11: to pull from in order to try to see it
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Speaker 11: a fair and impartial You.
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Speaker 2: Mean the defense wants a larger pool of dead bates
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Speaker 2: to pick to put on the jury. I hear you,
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Speaker 2: loud and clear, Stephanie Pitcher joining me, And you may
7:43
Speaker 2: wonder first it was Joe Scott Morgan. Now she's asking
7:47
Speaker 2: renound psychiatrist about jury selection. Yes I am, and I'll
7:50
Speaker 2: tell you why with me, Doctor Angela Arnold, renounced psychiatrist
7:53
Speaker 2: joining us out of the Atlanta jurisdiction at Angelo Arnold, MD.
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Speaker 2: There's no way I'll suggest you can judge a book
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Speaker 2: by its cover, because I know a lot better than that.
8:05
Speaker 2: But we have a limited time, and of what dire.
8:08
Speaker 2: We can't find out everything about everybody. We have to
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Speaker 2: trust our gut. We have to look at what we
8:15
Speaker 2: know about that person, which is precious little, before we
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Speaker 2: put them in the box, the jury box.
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Speaker 1: So if I have some woman coming in with her
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Speaker 1: military outfit on, and.
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Speaker 2: I know that she's made it up to what, let's
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Speaker 2: just say, lieutenant, I know she shows up, she focuses, she.
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Speaker 1: Does her job. She's used to reaching a decision up.
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Speaker 2: Against some dead long haired dead bee, doesn't have a job,
8:44
Speaker 2: hasn't had a job, smells like cigarette smoke, looks stoned. Yeah,
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Speaker 2: I'm picking her well.
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Speaker 12: And also Nancy, the person that you just described will
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Speaker 12: All is also more used to speaking to other people
9:00
Speaker 12: and listening to other people's opinions and developing an opinion
9:05
Speaker 12: based on the evidence that's presented. If if someone is
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Speaker 12: chosen from the jury pool that, as you said, sits
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Speaker 12: in front of the TV all day, doesn't really have
9:16
Speaker 12: a lot of interaction with other people in the community,
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Speaker 12: then they are not accustomed to talking to other people
9:24
Speaker 12: and coming up with a decision. Okay, they don't know how.
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Speaker 12: They don't know how to interact and listen to other
9:31
Speaker 12: people's opinions and form a decision on their own. I
9:35
Speaker 12: think that would be a I think that would be
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Speaker 12: a major problem. And that's why they that's why we
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Speaker 12: fill out those forms before we go to a jury
9:42
Speaker 12: to see what our background is, because that's what they're
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Speaker 12: looking for. People that are you know, people that are
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Speaker 12: out there every day that can actually come together and
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Speaker 12: form a decision.
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Speaker 2: Well, another thing is, and I know I'm going to
9:55
Speaker 2: be attacked online by throwing out stereotypes.
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Speaker 1: Believe me, I put on plenty of people on the
10:01
Speaker 1: jury with long hair that looked scraggly.
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Speaker 2: But I liked what they said in Vadier, which coincidentally
10:08
Speaker 2: means to speak the truth. I felt that I connected
10:12
Speaker 2: with them. There was something about them, something that they
10:15
Speaker 2: said that made me think, that's the juror I want.
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Speaker 1: Now.
10:20
Speaker 2: There, of course, is the time that I put a
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Speaker 2: convicted bank robber on a bank robbery trial. Unbeknownst to me,
10:30
Speaker 2: I found out after I'd already struck the jury and
10:33
Speaker 2: it was too late to have them thrown off. I
10:34
Speaker 2: had lost my opportunity. We got a conviction. But that said, again,
10:40
Speaker 2: you cannot judge a book by its cover. But maybe
10:44
Speaker 2: they're doing this Stephanie Piccher, a high profile trial lawyer,
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Speaker 2: because it's their best shot. Think about this, Okay, again,
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Speaker 2: this is not about politics, which I hate politics. Fifty
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Speaker 2: point four percent went Trump, forty six point five percent
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Speaker 2: went Biden in Boise.
11:05
Speaker 1: So it's pretty close, but interesting.
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Speaker 2: Forty eight nearly forty nine thousand Democrats one hundred and
11:12
Speaker 2: six thousand Republicans.
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Speaker 1: Does that tell me much?
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Speaker 2: Actually no, because your views on crime very often do
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Speaker 2: not mesh with your views on politics. But maybe they're
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Speaker 2: thinking Stephanie, Hey, yes it's conservative in Boise, but it's
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Speaker 2: more liberal than it is where the murders occurred in Moscow.
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Speaker 11: Yeah, that's certainly true. I definitely think that's part of
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Speaker 11: the consideration for.
11:40
Speaker 1: Them crime stories with Nancy Grace.
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Speaker 2: Guys, we also have to deal with the fight against
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Speaker 2: the death penalty in this particular jurisdiction of Idaho. It
12:05
Speaker 2: is extremely rare for a death penalty sentence to be
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Speaker 2: handed down. As a matter of fact that on trial,
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Speaker 2: lawyers will tell you the state is seeking the death penalty,
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Speaker 2: it may thwart even getting a guilty conviction.
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Speaker 13: Listen, the death penalty is extremely rare in Idaho, and
12:26
Speaker 13: it is carried out even more rarely. There have only
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Speaker 13: been three successful executions in the state since the federal
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Speaker 13: government lifted a ban on capital punishment in nineteen seventy six.
12:37
Speaker 13: Those sentenced to death are automatically granted a post conviction
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Speaker 13: review and an appeal opportunity. Their cases often go before
12:44
Speaker 13: the Supreme Court to confirm the capital punishment.
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Speaker 2: By now, legal battle being waged in the courtroom. First
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Speaker 2: ever change a venue to liberal Boise their words, not mine,
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Speaker 2: and the fight over the death penalty.
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Speaker 14: Listen Coberger's defense team has until September seventh to file
13:05
Speaker 14: their motion to strike the death penalty, and Taylor has
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Speaker 14: frequently argued that the state is withholding evidence and she
13:11
Speaker 14: may do so again in an attempt to borrow a
13:13
Speaker 14: death penalty sentence. The jury must be death penalty qualified
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Speaker 14: and must find one aggravating circumstance exists in the four
13:21
Speaker 14: victims deaths. The jury must come to a unanimous decision
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Speaker 14: to inflict the capital punishment.
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Speaker 2: What is an aggravating circumstance is a circumstance in death
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Speaker 2: penalty cases that may or may not exist in other cases,
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Speaker 2: such as, the victim is a child, the victim is
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Speaker 2: a senior, you killed a police officer, you killed a
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Speaker 2: judge or a politician.
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Speaker 1: You committed mass murder, in other words, more than one body.
13:49
Speaker 2: Your case was particularly heinous as it compares to other cases.
13:55
Speaker 2: You killed someone for a pecuniary or money interest, you
13:59
Speaker 2: lie in weight which shows cold blood, or you committed
14:04
Speaker 2: a murder in the commission of another felony such as rape,
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Speaker 2: armed robbery. Those are a few aggravating circumstances that are
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Speaker 2: recognized across the country by DP death penalty states. To
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Speaker 2: Chris mcdonnah joining me, director at the Cold Case Foundation,
14:21
Speaker 2: former homicide detective with under over three hundred homicide investigations
14:26
Speaker 2: under his belt. I found him where he's the host
14:29
Speaker 2: of a YouTube channel, the Interview Room. On this case,
14:34
Speaker 2: Chris McDonough, After you have given your blood, sweat and
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Speaker 2: tears literally on a homicide investigation, how does it feel
14:43
Speaker 2: to sit back and watch the lawyers go at it
14:46
Speaker 2: in the courtroom over change of venue or arguing against
14:51
Speaker 2: the death penalty in a death penalty state?
14:54
Speaker 1: How does that make law enforcement feel?
14:57
Speaker 7: You know, nancry?
14:57
Speaker 8: At times it can be very frustrating. But then the
15:01
Speaker 8: other side of the coin is if the defense is
15:03
Speaker 8: completely off the rails, I mean moving to boise, they
15:07
Speaker 8: obviously haven't done their homework yet. Because that in the
15:11
Speaker 8: law enforcement community is called the blue dot. And what
15:14
Speaker 8: I mean by that there are so many retired law
15:18
Speaker 8: enforcement officers living in that jurisdiction. Good luck getting an
15:23
Speaker 8: impartial jury. So when you start hearing stuff like that,
15:27
Speaker 8: you kind of get a little hope that the defense
15:30
Speaker 8: is really headed in the wrong direction.
15:32
Speaker 2: You know, I've never heard that phrase before the description
15:36
Speaker 2: the blue dot. Of course, you know, Chris mcdone. One
15:40
Speaker 2: of the first questions the defense is going to ask
15:42
Speaker 2: is are any of you or anyone.
15:45
Speaker 1: Close to you in law enforcement. Have you ever heard
15:49
Speaker 1: that question? Asked hearing for Dyer.
15:51
Speaker 8: Absolutely absolutely. In fact, I used to tell all my friends,
15:54
Speaker 8: tell them you know me and you'll get out of
15:57
Speaker 8: jury duty.
15:58
Speaker 2: Tee. I've never said anything like that. But that said,
16:04
Speaker 2: what more do we know about the death penalty and Idaho?
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Speaker 1: We know it's extremely rare. We know that it is
16:14
Speaker 1: conducted with the needle.
16:17
Speaker 2: We know that if the drugs for execution by lethal injection,
16:23
Speaker 2: which is the needle, are not obtained, you don't have the.
16:27
Speaker 1: Drugs to make that work, which there's a shortage.
16:31
Speaker 2: By the way, the alternative is firing squad to Joe
16:38
Speaker 2: Scott Morgan, tell me about the drugs necessary to perform
16:42
Speaker 2: a death penalty execution by lethal injection.
16:45
Speaker 6: Well, in Idaho they actually use pheno barbitol, which has
16:50
Speaker 6: traditionally been used as an anti seizure medication, but it
16:53
Speaker 6: has lethal effects when given in the proper dosages. And
16:57
Speaker 6: when they talk about these cocktails, what they're saying is
17:01
Speaker 6: and this goes to this idea of cruel and and
17:03
Speaker 6: you know, cruel and unusual. They will give the individual
17:07
Speaker 6: kind of a sedative beforehand. It's like a precursor to
17:11
Speaker 6: anesthesia that'll kind of put them in this relaxed state
17:14
Speaker 6: where they're kind of in a dream like state, and
17:17
Speaker 6: then they'll push the phena barb at that point in time.
17:21
Speaker 6: And you know, you hear these accounts with people that
17:23
Speaker 6: are in the death chamber or the reporters that are
17:26
Speaker 6: on the side of the glass and they're saying, well,
17:28
Speaker 6: he began to labor in breathing this sort of thing.
17:32
Speaker 6: We could hear it, you know, and he started snoring.
17:34
Speaker 1: You hear that a lot.
17:36
Speaker 6: And then all of a sudden they go to sleep
17:39
Speaker 6: at that point in time, and it's it's almost in
17:42
Speaker 6: a comato state until their heart stops.
17:44
Speaker 1: Scott, are you telling me they basically fall asleep.
17:47
Speaker 6: Yeah, to a certain degree. Just anybody that's ever undergoing surgery,
17:50
Speaker 6: you know where you have that kind of dark, you know,
17:54
Speaker 6: moment that kind of washes over you where you have
17:57
Speaker 6: no memory of it.
17:58
Speaker 2: Now, that has never happened to me, Joe Scott Morgan,
18:01
Speaker 2: I say, this is not going to work. But okay
18:04
Speaker 2: four three, two one, and then I say, well, aren't
18:08
Speaker 2: we starting.
18:09
Speaker 1: And it's over. That's what happens to me. There's no
18:13
Speaker 1: in between. That's terrifil.
18:15
Speaker 2: So you're saying that with the lethal cocktail lethal injection,
18:20
Speaker 2: the defendant will basically fall asleep. Could you, and I'm
18:24
Speaker 2: going to follow this up with Howard Bloom and Chris McDonough,
18:27
Speaker 2: could you just tell me, could you give me the dichotomy,
18:32
Speaker 2: the comparison to what these four young.
18:37
Speaker 1: Students went through.
18:38
Speaker 2: And you know, Joe Scott, my children are all looking
18:41
Speaker 2: at colleges right now, and every time I think about
18:43
Speaker 2: this case, I think about in two years they would
18:48
Speaker 2: be where these four beautiful students were in school, happy, happy, happy,
18:59
Speaker 2: pursuing their dreams, their lives before them. What happened to them,
19:04
Speaker 2: Joe Scott, They didn't just fall asleep and never wake up.
19:09
Speaker 6: No, No, the dichotomy is I think probably an understatement.
19:13
Speaker 6: It's it's a harsh reality. Uh, this is a brutal,
19:17
Speaker 6: brutal event that took place, Nancy, and even as a
19:20
Speaker 6: college professor now at the stage in my life, I've
19:23
Speaker 6: had a hard time getting past those events because my
19:26
Speaker 6: town where I teach it's very similar to Moscow, and
19:30
Speaker 6: so I view these students and I you know, it's
19:33
Speaker 6: hard for me not to reflect on this, but it
19:36
Speaker 6: was absolute the height of brutality that all of these
19:39
Speaker 6: kids went through, and compared to what might happen in
19:45
Speaker 6: the event that a death penalty is rendered here and
19:49
Speaker 6: that they would eventually ever follow through with it, it's
19:53
Speaker 6: it's very very merciful compared to what these kids went through, Dancy,
19:59
Speaker 6: and that would be, well, you're talking about multiple sharp
20:03
Speaker 6: force injuries with these kids to what we understand at
20:07
Speaker 6: this point, and you know, one of the things I've
20:10
Speaker 6: always reflected on, Nancy, is that is that with sharp
20:14
Speaker 6: force injuries, one of the things that occurs is that
20:17
Speaker 6: our pain centers fire. Just imagine, if you will, that
20:20
Speaker 6: every time that edged weapon touches the surface of the
20:24
Speaker 6: skin and breaks it, there is another moment in time
20:28
Speaker 6: where that pain center fires, and you've got multiple of
20:30
Speaker 6: these firing all over. Not to mention the hopelessness that
20:34
Speaker 6: you have that you're going to be able to escape this,
20:37
Speaker 6: you can actually fill the warmth of your blood beginning
20:40
Speaker 6: to leach out onto your skin you're breathing becomes labored,
20:44
Speaker 6: but all the while you're trying to fight at a
20:46
Speaker 6: primal level. This is one of the most horrific deaths
20:50
Speaker 6: anybody can experience. I've worked a lot, a lot of
20:53
Speaker 6: sharp force injury deaths over the course of my career,
20:56
Speaker 6: and they are by far and I even compare this
21:00
Speaker 6: to like shotgun wounds. They are by far far the
21:03
Speaker 6: most brutal. I cannot begin and listen. I know why
21:08
Speaker 6: bringing us back to the jury, I know why they
21:11
Speaker 6: want to try to escape the original site that this
21:13
Speaker 6: happened in, because when the jury actually sees Nancy, those
21:18
Speaker 6: images from the interior of this structure, and they see
21:22
Speaker 6: what was done to these kids, their mouth will open.
21:28
Speaker 1: They will be aghast at what they're seeing.
21:31
Speaker 6: They are not going to be able to take the
21:33
Speaker 6: measure of the brutality here.
21:35
Speaker 3: Prosecutors plan to seek the death penalty for the accused
21:39
Speaker 3: Idahost students murderer.
21:42
Speaker 2: Battle is raging even as we are speaking. The death
21:46
Speaker 2: penalty is being warred over in a court of law.
21:50
Speaker 2: Legal briefs firing back and forth. Private investigators for the defense,
21:55
Speaker 2: investigators for the prosecution, working.
21:58
Speaker 1: Day and night.
21:59
Speaker 2: Why to beat the Idaho death penalty, it is typically
22:05
Speaker 2: death by needle, which is lethal injection. If those particular
22:09
Speaker 2: drugs cannot be obtained, it will be death by firing squad.
22:15
Speaker 1: Again, DPS and Idaho are few and far between. Listen.
22:19
Speaker 10: Dennette gene Elg reports to police she has a prowler.
22:22
Speaker 10: Days later, her mutilated body is found on her punctured
22:26
Speaker 10: water bed. Dennette suffers fifteen stab wounds, but did manage
22:30
Speaker 10: to inflict injury on her attacker, Richard Albert Levitt. After
22:35
Speaker 10: killing Denette, Levitt removed her sexual organs, then goes to
22:38
Speaker 10: the emergency room for his own wounds. Levitt's blood at
22:42
Speaker 10: the scene becomes part of the evidence that convicts Levitt
22:45
Speaker 10: and he is sentenced to death. Levitt spends nearly thirty
22:48
Speaker 10: years on death row before the sentence is carried out
22:51
Speaker 10: by lethal injection. June twelfth, twenty twelve, three.
22:55
Speaker 2: Hot senecat daily bed changes with fresh linens, special meals. Okay,
23:03
Speaker 2: he had thirty years of that, Joe Scott Morgan, Did
23:06
Speaker 2: I hear that correctly? That he after killing Dennette he
23:13
Speaker 2: then cut out her sex organs.
23:16
Speaker 6: Yes, that's what you heard, and the height of brutality there.
23:21
Speaker 6: And again this goes to this idea that he languished
23:24
Speaker 6: on death row. And I think that a lot of people,
23:27
Speaker 6: you know, might think, well, it's good that he languished.
23:30
Speaker 6: But this is not going to be a quick process,
23:33
Speaker 6: however you cut it, Nancy, It's just not going to
23:35
Speaker 6: be quick. They're going to sit there for a protracted
23:38
Speaker 6: period of time.
23:39
Speaker 1: Languish.
23:39
Speaker 2: I mean, got online girlfriends with funneled money, gained notoriety.
23:48
Speaker 1: All right, if you call that languishing, I do not.
23:51
Speaker 1: But that is the ilk.
23:54
Speaker 7: That is the.
23:56
Speaker 2: Person that lands on the Idaho death But hold on,
24:01
Speaker 2: wait a minute, what about Paul Rhodes.
24:04
Speaker 1: Listen?
24:05
Speaker 15: In twenty Days, meth addict Paul Rhodes puts Idaho residents
24:09
Speaker 15: in a state of fear. February twenty eighth, twenty one
24:12
Speaker 15: year old Stacy Baldwin is abducted while working at a
24:15
Speaker 15: convenience store in Blackfoot. On March seventeenth, Idaho falls convenience
24:19
Speaker 15: store clerk twenty three year old Nolan Hadden's body is
24:23
Speaker 15: found in the stores walking cooler. Two days later, special
24:27
Speaker 15: education teacher Susan Mickelbacker is abducted in a parking lot,
24:31
Speaker 15: driven to a rural area, raped and shot nine times.
24:35
Speaker 15: Rhodes is convicted and sentenced to death for the murders
24:38
Speaker 15: of Mickelbacker and Baldwin. More than twenty years later, Paul
24:42
Speaker 15: Ezra Rhodes is put to death by lethal injection.
24:45
Speaker 1: Think about it.
24:46
Speaker 2: This, twenty three year old Nolan Hadden is just working
24:50
Speaker 2: at a convenience store when.
24:53
Speaker 1: He is ambushed by Rhodes.
24:55
Speaker 2: Then a special ed teacher, a beloved special teacher, Susan
25:01
Speaker 2: Michel Baker, abducted in a parking lot, textbook, driven to
25:07
Speaker 2: a rural area, brutally raped, brutally raped, and then shot
25:12
Speaker 2: nine times. Okay, Paul Ezra Rhodes, of course, righten, hail,
25:19
Speaker 2: But then there's the poster boy for the Idaho death
25:23
Speaker 2: penalty listen.
25:24
Speaker 13: Chad Dabell, now convicted and sentenced to death for the
25:28
Speaker 13: murders of his first wife, Timmy Dabell, and his second
25:31
Speaker 13: wife's two children, Tylie Ryan and jj Vellow, may have
25:34
Speaker 13: a long wait on death row. Dave Bell has yet
25:37
Speaker 13: to be transferred to death row and is entitled to
25:40
Speaker 13: a post conviction review and at least one appeal opportunity.
25:43
Speaker 13: When his death Warren is signed. The appeal process typically
25:47
Speaker 13: goes on for years. The average length of stay before
25:50
Speaker 13: execution in Idaho is currently more than twenty seven years.
25:55
Speaker 2: That's a long time for me to foot the bill
25:57
Speaker 2: for these people. When you think about Chad Dave Bell,
26:01
Speaker 2: we immediately think of little JJ and his teen sister Tylie,
26:06
Speaker 2: whose body was rendered down like an animal at a
26:10
Speaker 2: slaughter house to a bucket of skin and fat.
26:14
Speaker 1: Let me let that.
26:15
Speaker 2: Sink k in for just a moment. But then there's
26:18
Speaker 2: his wife, Tammy Dave Bell also murdered. Why so he
26:25
Speaker 2: could sleep with Coltwaum Laurie vallow his pickup line, Hey,
26:30
Speaker 2: we were married in a previous life, so we might
26:32
Speaker 2: as well go to the motel now him? Yes, him,
26:37
Speaker 2: death penalty Idaho. So what about this case? With those
26:43
Speaker 2: cases ringing in their ears? The defense team for Brian
26:48
Speaker 2: Coburger fighting tooth and nail to defeat the death penalty.
26:53
Speaker 2: But reality check before we get bogged down again, no offense,
26:57
Speaker 2: Stephanie picture with the legalities of the death penalty. To
27:02
Speaker 2: Howard Bloom, author of When the Night Comes Falling, a
27:06
Speaker 2: new book chuck full of research about the Brian Coburger murders.
27:12
Speaker 1: Excuse me, alegend murders, Howard.
27:16
Speaker 2: I would like you and Chris to explain what the
27:20
Speaker 2: victims went through before they bled out dead.
27:26
Speaker 1: Howard, it was a extremely violent and brutal crime.
27:32
Speaker 7: Consider the suspect went into the third floor bedroom and
27:37
Speaker 7: found Maddie.
27:38
Speaker 8: I believe she was awoken from sleep.
27:41
Speaker 7: Imagine being awakened from a deep sleep and then by
27:46
Speaker 7: a man above you with a knife. He slaughters her
27:51
Speaker 7: and then Kelly, though at this point is awake. She
27:54
Speaker 7: tries to escape. She goes to the back of the
27:58
Speaker 7: small room. She's wedged up again the bed. She has
28:02
Speaker 7: her hands up, she's fighting her father has says like
28:05
Speaker 7: a tiger. She succumbs to her wounds. The killer then walks.
28:09
Speaker 8: Down this narrow staircase.
28:11
Speaker 7: He goes onto the second floor and there is Ethan
28:15
Speaker 7: to confront him. They've heard the noise, they've heard the
28:18
Speaker 7: door barking. Before Ethan can say anything, he slashed in
28:23
Speaker 7: the neck with the knife, and then, most chillingly, the
28:28
Speaker 7: killer says to Zena, don't worry, I'm not going to
28:32
Speaker 7: hurt you.
28:33
Speaker 8: But he does hurt her.
28:34
Speaker 7: She has defensive wounds. There's a knife wound right through
28:38
Speaker 7: her palm. She's really fighting for her life, but she
28:44
Speaker 7: quickly succumbs, and then the killer then begins to.
28:48
Speaker 8: Leave the house.
28:49
Speaker 7: It happens very quickly.
28:51
Speaker 8: It's very brutal.
28:52
Speaker 7: But imagine being anyone awakened from your deep sleep and
28:57
Speaker 7: being confronted by a man holding a knife.
28:59
Speaker 2: Christ Again, director of Cole Case's Foundation, but for my purposes,
29:05
Speaker 2: the star of YouTube channel interview Room, former homicide detect
29:11
Speaker 2: of three hundred plus homicide investigations under his belt. You know,
29:17
Speaker 2: you have been to so many homicide scenes, as says
29:21
Speaker 2: Joe Scott, explain what these victims went through when we're
29:25
Speaker 2: talking about a death penalty felon basically falling to sleep,
29:34
Speaker 2: and I what these four victims lived through is almost indescribable.
29:44
Speaker 2: The blood literally pouring down the sides of the house. Explain,
29:52
Speaker 2: Chris mcdonnald, you and I have been to this scene.
29:56
Speaker 2: Describe what happened to these four students.
30:00
Speaker 8: Yeah, Nancy, you are one thousand percent correct. I mean,
30:04
Speaker 8: if we think about the brutality of the horror that
30:08
Speaker 8: took place in that house, and to the point where
30:11
Speaker 8: they had to destroy the house, which I think is
30:14
Speaker 8: a mistake. But that aside. Imagine, you know, put yourself
30:18
Speaker 8: into the let's go to the third floor for a
30:20
Speaker 8: moment and put ourselves into that room. The two victims
30:26
Speaker 8: are sleeping, they are obviously attacked brutally, and that was
30:31
Speaker 8: what was taking place on both floors inside of that
30:35
Speaker 8: house to the point where today he gets to sit
30:39
Speaker 8: back to your point and lean over to the defense
30:43
Speaker 8: counsel and say whatever he says. But those those victims
30:47
Speaker 8: had no way of ever ever getting their say outside
30:54
Speaker 8: of the prosecution office.
30:55
Speaker 3: Now, if the judge grants a change of venue, will
31:06
Speaker 3: Brian Coburger face a more conservative jury? How would travel
31:10
Speaker 3: to a new location affect proceedings.
31:14
Speaker 2: Another stumbling block for the state is going to be
31:18
Speaker 2: just how one person, Brian Coburger managed to overcome not
31:25
Speaker 2: one to three, but four victims. One thing I'd like
31:29
Speaker 2: to point out to you, Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics,
31:34
Speaker 2: is that, yes, according to the state, he murdered four people,
31:39
Speaker 2: but two of them were actually all four of.
31:43
Speaker 1: Them were one at a time.
31:45
Speaker 2: His victims were asleep or going to sleep, in the
31:49
Speaker 2: dark in their beds, unarmed when he comes in, and
31:54
Speaker 2: of course two of the victims were sleeping together, but
31:57
Speaker 2: he killed one as the other there still lie in
32:01
Speaker 2: the bed, and then her. So it's not one against four.
32:07
Speaker 2: That is a misconception. Every murder was one on one.
32:12
Speaker 2: Explain how did he pull it off? Because I've heard
32:15
Speaker 2: it over and over and over by talking heads, say how.
32:19
Speaker 1: Did he pull it off? One person kills four? It
32:21
Speaker 1: wasn't like that. It was a series of one on ones.
32:25
Speaker 6: Yeah, he's got the element of surprise here. And you're
32:28
Speaker 6: talking about these college the college kids that are in
32:32
Speaker 6: this I'm not going to say dream like state, but
32:35
Speaker 6: you know how it is when and particularly if you've
32:37
Speaker 6: if you've been out on the town, you have any
32:39
Speaker 6: outcol in your system, you're laid back, you're relaxed, and
32:44
Speaker 6: all of a sudden, some demonic force almost sets upon you,
32:49
Speaker 6: and so you have no idea what's happening at that
32:53
Speaker 6: moment in time. So for each one of these individuals,
32:56
Speaker 6: if you've got an individual that is completely sober, they're
32:59
Speaker 6: focused on what they're doing, and they show up with
33:02
Speaker 6: a weapon at the scene, like this weapon, because it's
33:05
Speaker 6: unlike any other kind that's out there, relative to a
33:08
Speaker 6: combat knife, it's very particular and they know what they're doing,
33:13
Speaker 6: then yeah, it's possible to pull it off one by
33:15
Speaker 6: one and they're not going to put up much of
33:17
Speaker 6: a defense other than that initial strike where they're aware
33:22
Speaker 6: that they are being struck. But at that point, Tom,
33:24
Speaker 6: it's too late.
33:25
Speaker 2: But to you, Chris McDonald joining us from our homicide detective,
33:32
Speaker 2: the defense is going to argue, no blood in the car,
33:36
Speaker 2: no blood on his clothes or shoes found at the home,
33:40
Speaker 2: no murder weapon, So how did he pull it off?
33:45
Speaker 1: Like Joe Scott Morgan just explain, but yet not have
33:48
Speaker 1: any bloody evidence.
33:50
Speaker 8: Well, you know, that's a great point, but there's no
33:52
Speaker 8: clothing discovered or recovered. There was some type of you know,
33:59
Speaker 8: blood evidence that was recovered at his apartment. We don't know.
34:03
Speaker 8: Remember they did a search warrn over at as apartment
34:06
Speaker 8: and I think it was on a pillow or a
34:09
Speaker 8: bedsheet of some sort a comforter where they had tested
34:13
Speaker 8: positive for blood. We don't know what the results of
34:16
Speaker 8: that tests are to this point, however, that may be problematic.
34:24
Speaker 8: Then of course we have the sheath right where we
34:27
Speaker 8: have the CNA match on that button. As Doc Morgan
34:31
Speaker 8: has pointed, out numerous occasions to that k bar knife.
34:36
Speaker 8: So the fact that we don't have any quote, physical
34:39
Speaker 8: evidence initially in terms of the information that we provided
34:44
Speaker 8: doesn't mean it doesn't exist yet. And so I think
34:47
Speaker 8: the defense also has to be very careful when they
34:50
Speaker 8: go out and they start putting information like that out
34:53
Speaker 8: into the public arena, because it could come back to
34:56
Speaker 8: bite them.
34:57
Speaker 1: Because another is she let's go to Howard.
34:58
Speaker 2: Bloom and Stephan and Angela jump in for Pete's sake.
35:04
Speaker 2: But to you, Howard Bloom, it's not so much the
35:09
Speaker 2: evidence is deficient. What about the lack of certain other evidence.
35:15
Speaker 2: In other words, we know he ordered that k bar
35:19
Speaker 2: knife and sheath because we have the Amazon record that
35:23
Speaker 2: he ordered it, and they probably have a search history
35:26
Speaker 2: trying to find just the right knife. We have the
35:30
Speaker 2: exact same sheath at the crime scene. So where's a knife?
35:33
Speaker 7: You know what?
35:34
Speaker 2: My husband, I know it's not romantic, gave me a
35:37
Speaker 2: butcher block of fancy knives.
35:41
Speaker 1: Okay, So why would I get rid of one of them?
35:46
Speaker 1: Why would one of them.
35:49
Speaker 2: Other than my ninety two year old mother putting it
35:51
Speaker 2: down the disposal in the kitchen.
35:53
Speaker 1: Other than that, why would I get rid of a knife.
35:56
Speaker 1: We've got the lack of that knife. What did he
35:59
Speaker 1: do with it? And why we know he.
36:01
Speaker 2: Ordered that Dicky's like a repairman's uniform. We have the receipt,
36:08
Speaker 2: we know he did it.
36:10
Speaker 1: Where is it?
36:11
Speaker 2: Why did he get rid of it? So the lack
36:14
Speaker 2: of certain evidence must be taken into account. But my
36:17
Speaker 2: question to you redirecting is a stumbling WoT. How did
36:21
Speaker 2: he do it? One against four? And how did he
36:25
Speaker 2: get away with it? Where's the evidence?
36:28
Speaker 8: What we're missing is specifics.
36:30
Speaker 7: But what you have to see is that all the
36:33
Speaker 7: pieces of the evidence, when they're merged together, form a
36:37
Speaker 7: very coherent hole. And all the evidence that you've cited,
36:40
Speaker 7: there's one piece that you've left out. After he was arrested,
36:44
Speaker 7: they did a cheek swab of his DNA. This cheek
36:48
Speaker 7: swab taken directly from him, matched the DNA taken from
36:53
Speaker 7: the button of the knife sheath. So all these specific
36:57
Speaker 7: pieces form a coherent hole. And the defense will try
37:02
Speaker 7: to impugne as you have said, the DNA, they'll try
37:06
Speaker 7: to impune the telephone of triangulations. But when it all
37:10
Speaker 7: comes together, the evidence, I feel is overwhelming, and that's
37:15
Speaker 7: why they're so concerned about the death penalty. That's also
37:18
Speaker 7: why I believe they're trying to.
37:20
Speaker 8: Move the venue, not that they think they'll.
37:22
Speaker 7: Get a better trial elsewhere in the state. They're trying
37:25
Speaker 7: to buy time.
37:26
Speaker 8: This is a very cynical strategy.
37:28
Speaker 2: And another thing about Howard Bloom's book, When the Night
37:30
Speaker 2: Comes Falling, a Requiem for the Idaho student murders, he
37:34
Speaker 2: and I got a ton of hate mail online the
37:38
Speaker 2: last time he discussed his book. Let me tell you something.
37:42
Speaker 2: He didn't just make all that up. He sourced everything
37:46
Speaker 2: he wrote in that book. Now, if you disagree with him, fine,
37:50
Speaker 2: but this is not.
37:51
Speaker 1: Siction that he wrote. And When the Night Comes Falling there's.
37:54
Speaker 7: An unarticulated premise in all of this. A lot of
37:58
Speaker 7: people from Hollywood came into the town of Moscow, a
38:02
Speaker 7: lot of other authors. There's a lot of money being
38:05
Speaker 7: thrown around. A lot of people were offered deals. I
38:08
Speaker 7: thought about giving money to people involved in the case,
38:12
Speaker 7: but as a New York Times reporter, ultimately it didn't
38:15
Speaker 7: sit right with me.
38:16
Speaker 8: I just didn't want to roll that way.
38:18
Speaker 7: But now people feel that if I'm telling this story,
38:21
Speaker 7: they are losing their business.
38:24
Speaker 8: Opportunity.
38:25
Speaker 1: Oh so the genesis of some of your hate mail.
38:28
Speaker 2: Okay, Stephanie Pitcher joining me, high profile lawyer in this
38:31
Speaker 2: jurisdiction of Idaho and Utah. By the way, Stephanie, the
38:37
Speaker 2: import of what's missing. It's not just okay, my mom
38:41
Speaker 2: stuck one of my brand new knives down the disposal
38:43
Speaker 2: of the kitchen. That knife didn't prove anything. The things
38:47
Speaker 2: that are missing out of Coburg's apartment are probative. They
38:53
Speaker 2: prove something. So why are those things missing and nothing
38:56
Speaker 2: else is missing? Why the knife that he just bought
39:00
Speaker 2: on Amazon? Why is it missing? Why is the Dicky's
39:03
Speaker 2: uniform that he just thought we've gotten the receipt?
39:05
Speaker 1: Why is it missing.
39:06
Speaker 2: It's not like I'm missing one of his own notebooks
39:09
Speaker 2: from the eighth grade that proves nothing. The items missing
39:12
Speaker 2: are probative, Stephanie.
39:14
Speaker 1: Sure.
39:14
Speaker 11: I mean, I think that this was not a random
39:17
Speaker 11: attack or a random murder. He thought this out, and
39:20
Speaker 11: evidence shows that the evidence shows that he turned off
39:23
Speaker 11: his phone as he was driving, I mean, as he
39:25
Speaker 11: approached the scene.
39:27
Speaker 1: He I think he has.
39:29
Speaker 11: Taken several steps not only to plan this, but to
39:31
Speaker 11: also cover it up. And that's what the evidence I
39:33
Speaker 11: think suggests at least what the public has.
39:35
Speaker 3: Brian Cooberger's defense files for a trial venue change, citing extensive,
39:42
Speaker 3: ongoing and inflammatory publicity. Will the motion be successful?
39:48
Speaker 2: Legal battle brewing as we go to Airton Doctor Angela Arnold,
39:53
Speaker 2: psychiatrist out of the Atlanta jurisdiction, Doctor Angie, I find
39:58
Speaker 2: those missing pe of evidence.
40:01
Speaker 1: Very primitive to me. I mean, it could be argued, hey,
40:04
Speaker 1: where's the murder weapon? And my response is, hey, why
40:08
Speaker 1: did he throw away a brand new knife? Where did
40:10
Speaker 1: that go? Where did that brand new uniform go? And more?
40:14
Speaker 1: Explain the thinking behind that, Nancy.
40:17
Speaker 12: It speaks to his state of mind through this, and
40:20
Speaker 12: it speaks to the fact that he knew what he
40:22
Speaker 12: was doing, and he knew that he had to get
40:24
Speaker 12: away with it, and he had. And as some of
40:27
Speaker 12: the previous guests have said, he planned this from start
40:30
Speaker 12: to finish, and his ultimate mistake was leaving that knife
40:36
Speaker 12: sheath at the scene, and that's what's going to get him.
40:40
Speaker 12: But this shows that he planned every ounce of this.
40:45
Speaker 2: We wait as justice unfolds in the Brian Coburger prosecution.
40:50
Speaker 2: Nancy Gray signing off, Give thy Friend