Latest / Every Church Flourishing by the Great Commission Association / Episode 38: Church Replanting, Church Revitalization, and Help For Struggling Churches with Bob Bickford. Culture Eats Strategy For Breakfast. + Dangers of Soda Racism.

Transcript

Episode 38: Church Replanting, Church Revitalization, and Help For Struggling Churches with Bob Bickford. Culture Eats Strategy For Breakfast. + Dangers of Soda Racism. · Every Church Flourishing by the Great Commission Association

0:00
Speaker2: Post-COVID, sometimes we're a little more nervous than we used to be.
0:04
Speaker2: Maybe we don't want to step on the scale. Maybe we don't want to know our blood pressure.
0:08
Speaker2: Maybe we don't want to know exactly how things are going. And that mentality
0:13
Speaker2: can sometimes spread to the church.
0:16
Speaker2: We know deep down there's problems, but maybe we're not quite willing to face up to them just yet.
0:25
Speaker2: However, Bob Bickford, the head of the Nashville Baptist Association,
0:30
Speaker2: is here today to help us walk through the process of diagnostics in your church
0:37
Speaker2: and the great benefits of knowing
0:41
Speaker2: that your church does need help.
0:43
Speaker2: It's not necessarily a bad thing,
0:46
Speaker0: Because… One of the things I think is honest conversation with the church about
0:51
Speaker0: their true condition leads to the opportunity for,
0:56
Speaker0: developing a dependence upon the Lord, and once we develop a dependence upon
1:00
Speaker0: the Lord, then we're open to what the Lord wants to do.
1:14
Speaker1: And the beautiful Redwoods. The Every Church Flourishing podcast is all about
1:17
Speaker1: helping churches, leaders, and pastors find health, encouragement,
1:21
Speaker1: practical advice, soul care, and resources that work together to build up your
1:25
Speaker1: local fellowship and the broader kingdom of God.
1:28
Speaker1: Join hosts, Pastor Chris Cole and Dr. Chase Thompson from the Great Commission
1:33
Speaker1: Association, led by Dr. Mike Stewart, as they explore the frontiers of ministry
1:37
Speaker1: and aim for the goal of making every church flourish.
1:40
Speaker2: Hello, everybody, and welcome into episode number 38 of the Every Church Flourishing Podcast.
1:47
Speaker2: Today, we've got Bob Bickford. He is the executive director of the Nashville Baptist Association.
1:55
Speaker2: I am with my co-host, Pastor Christopher Cole of the Great Commission Association,
2:01
Speaker2: and we are talking to Bob about church health.
2:05
Speaker2: Bob, one of the things that strikes me is that in this day and age,
2:11
Speaker2: maybe this has been a human reality for generations.
2:15
Speaker2: I don't know. I've not been around for generations, but I know that post-COVID
2:19
Speaker2: diagnosis is hard and people sometimes avoid it.
2:24
Speaker2: They don't want to check their weight. They don't want to check their blood
2:26
Speaker2: pressure. They don't want to necessarily check their bank accounts and their
2:30
Speaker2: attendance trends and all of that.
2:32
Speaker2: So they kind of, and often it's subconscious, they subconsciously avoid that
2:38
Speaker2: diagnostic process from a sense of denial or fear of confronting the truth or whatever.
2:45
Speaker2: So give us, I guess, some quick reasons why church leaders should embrace that
2:50
Speaker2: diagnostic process and maybe ways to help get around those fear responses. Yeah.
2:58
Speaker0: Yeah. Oh, man. I don't know that I have the complete answers for this,
3:02
Speaker0: but let me talk out what I've been doing now.
3:05
Speaker0: I think that we're getting ready to start a series on Nehemiah and the church
3:10
Speaker0: that I'm the transitional intern in.
3:12
Speaker0: And so when I go back and think about Nehemiah and some of the hallmarks of
3:16
Speaker0: his leadership, I recall that he heard some news about the condition of his
3:21
Speaker0: city that broke his heart.
3:23
Speaker0: And he began to pray and began to be sorrowful over the condition of his city.
3:28
Speaker0: And so one of the things I think is, in the church I'm leading,
3:32
Speaker0: can I foster godly biblical sorrow over the condition of the church?
3:37
Speaker0: And, you know, as we talk about the condition of the church,
3:41
Speaker0: you know, this again, we're talking about in the life of the leader,
3:43
Speaker0: Nehemiah, primarily right now.
3:44
Speaker0: So then he takes a risk of faith to ask the king for basically a leave of absence
3:50
Speaker0: and then all the resources he needs to do, all the things that he needs to do.
3:54
Speaker0: So he trusts God for the resources. He trusts God. What's the next step?
3:58
Speaker0: I think I'll ask the king. Can you give me resources? It's a risk.
4:01
Speaker0: Because Nehemiah basically is the safety blanket for the king,
4:04
Speaker0: right? He's the cupbearer, right? So he drinks the king's wine and if he dies,
4:08
Speaker0: he's done. But if he lives, he's, you know.
4:11
Speaker0: He's golden. And so basically he's trusted. And so he says, hey,
4:14
Speaker0: I want to, I'm going to take a risk here. I need a leave of absence.
4:16
Speaker0: So then he gets that. He gets the resources.
4:19
Speaker0: Then he shows up to the city that he loves and he walks around.
4:23
Speaker0: He doesn't tell anybody what he's going to do. Doesn't unpack it all,
4:26
Speaker0: but just rides around the city at night and looks at it and then comes up with
4:32
Speaker0: an idea and a strategy based on all those things.
4:34
Speaker0: But it started with this, this sense of brokenness and dependence upon the Lord
4:39
Speaker0: for success that leads to a strategy for what to do.
4:43
Speaker0: So one of the things I think is honest conversation with the church about their
4:48
Speaker0: true condition leads to the opportunity for developing a dependence upon the Lord.
4:54
Speaker0: And once we develop a dependence, then we're open to what the Lord wants to
4:58
Speaker0: do, and then we'll follow the ways of the Lord.
5:00
Speaker0: So those are some things that when you ask that question that came to my mind.
5:05
Speaker0: And so I think developing that among the people just takes being among them,
5:10
Speaker0: pastoring them well, teaching them God's word, listening to them,
5:14
Speaker0: trying to develop a sense of brokenness and dependence, but also hopefulness, right?
5:19
Speaker0: And so one of the things I'm constantly doing in the,
5:22
Speaker0: church that I'm transitional interim in is they used to be 800.
5:25
Speaker0: They're down to like 140 right now, 80,000 square foot building.
5:28
Speaker0: And so it was like, you know, 30 plus years ago is when they were in their heyday.
5:32
Speaker0: And man, we see something good. We just celebrate it. Oh my gosh.
5:36
Speaker0: Look, we have this wonderful service.
5:38
Speaker0: People are excited. People are smiling. Look, people are staying after the service.
5:42
Speaker0: We had a mission share service. And man, it was crazy. Like all the different
5:45
Speaker0: groups, VBS, Kids Camp, Youth Camp, Brazil Mission Trip, everybody shared.
5:50
Speaker0: It was like this, this monstrous service and videos and testimony also.
5:54
Speaker0: So from a pastor standpoint, I'm having the air traffic control and,
5:57
Speaker0: you know, all this kind of stuff.
5:58
Speaker0: And it was very stressful for me. And then somebody went along.
6:01
Speaker0: And so the devotional that I was going to share got reduced to like maybe two
6:05
Speaker0: and a half minutes. And then I had to do the Lord's Supper and all this kind
6:07
Speaker0: of stuff. So I'm watching all this go down.
6:10
Speaker0: And instead of being wound up and stressed by that, I was just saying,
6:14
Speaker0: Lord, this is a beautiful picture of the life that still is in this church.
6:19
Speaker0: Let's celebrate that. Let's get them to focus on that. Let's talk about the joy.
6:24
Speaker0: And then when I was walking out, I was like talking to everybody.
6:27
Speaker0: Man, didn't you see it? Wasn't it great today? We do have so many good things
6:30
Speaker0: today. Wasn't it great to see kids on the stage singing? Wasn't it great to hear the testimonies?
6:33
Speaker0: All that concern. So I think if you can take that approach where you're helping
6:37
Speaker0: the congregation find the joy of the Lord again, man, you'd see some really good things happen.
6:42
Speaker0: And it doesn't matter that the Sunday was chaotic and wouldn't be written about
6:46
Speaker0: by the best outreach magazine on how to do a service and this and that and the other.
6:50
Speaker0: But I think that's just good old pastoring and loving people and celebrating
6:54
Speaker0: and just rolling with what you got.
6:55
Speaker0: And I think when you relax and you celebrate the small things that the Lord
6:59
Speaker0: is doing, I think the people pick up on that and they get excited too.
7:03
Speaker0: So there's a culture of joy in our church right now that the church and I'm
7:06
Speaker0: transitional interim in, a culture of joy and anticipation about what God's going to do.
7:11
Speaker0: You just develop that by being hopeful and being dependent upon the Lord.
7:14
Speaker0: And so I think I tweeted out the other day that, you know, some revitalization
7:18
Speaker0: is really just largely good old pastoring and loving people.
7:23
Speaker0: And that gives us all hope because we're not, I'm not the guy that's going to
7:26
Speaker0: plant a church and explode it to, you know, a thousand. That's not who I am.
7:30
Speaker0: But I can laugh with the old ladies, shake hands, instill hope,
7:34
Speaker0: love the kids, high-five the kids, fist bump the kids.
7:37
Speaker0: I can do that, right? And I can believe that God's faithful and going to answer
7:41
Speaker0: his word and our prayers and that he loves the church even more than I do.
7:46
Speaker2: Amen.
7:47
Speaker1: So there is so much good in what you just shared there, Bob.
7:51
Speaker1: I think of the slogan or the tagline that at least used to be used by the Replant
7:58
Speaker1: team. I'm not sure how current it is. The idea of preach, pray, love, stay.
8:02
Speaker1: So much just core level pastoring there that's involved in the work of replanting.
8:11
Speaker1: I want to maybe go a little bit of an additional layer down.
8:16
Speaker1: You've talked about how falling attendance, financial pressure,
8:19
Speaker1: the aging membership, the declining facilities, the decline in,
8:24
Speaker1: hey, we haven't had baptisms in 20 years, which just getting churches to acknowledge and own that
8:30
Speaker1: can be really problematic.
8:32
Speaker1: But those are largely symptoms rather than causes, is what you've been saying.
8:37
Speaker1: They're the what's, not the why's.
8:39
Speaker1: And that important process of unpacking the why's, things that you just mentioned
8:45
Speaker1: like deficient discipleship, failure to address conflict, those long-term historical
8:51
Speaker1: practices in the church can be that.
8:53
Speaker1: But you want to lead the church into a place where they have hope.
8:58
Speaker1: I was thinking as you were sharing that,
9:00
Speaker1: about the old aphorism that's attributed to Peter Drucker, the idea that culture eats strategy.
9:09
Speaker1: So you're a replanter, you're a lead guy, you're trying to lead a church through
9:14
Speaker1: a renewal, or you're a lay leader, and you're like, hey, we need to be renewed.
9:17
Speaker1: And you're trying to come up with practical answers and strategic components.
9:22
Speaker1: The problem that we often run into is a buzzsaw of reality called culture, right?
9:29
Speaker1: And last week I got to hang out with wonderful NAMM friend of ours,
9:34
Speaker1: Pastor Gus Hernandez, helping plant reality Miami right now.
9:39
Speaker1: He said something I've just been thinking about, and he said culture is often
9:43
Speaker1: made up of, and I'm paraphrasing, this is not perfect, but culture is the hidden
9:49
Speaker1: Assumptions that we believe about the way things just are.
9:55
Speaker1: Hidden assumptions about the way things just are.
9:57
Speaker1: And ever since then, I've been thinking about that in terms of church renewal.
10:02
Speaker1: And what are the hidden assumptions? Like, what's the shadow mission that's
10:08
Speaker1: taken over from discipleship, for example?
10:11
Speaker1: Is it, hey, our church just needs to survive? That's the hidden assumption there, right?
10:17
Speaker1: Or what's the power of the church?
10:20
Speaker1: What's our actual hope? It's in that $100,000 rainy day fund that we've got
10:25
Speaker1: stashed away in the bank account that we never, ever touch or something like that.
10:30
Speaker1: So as we think about maybe that concept, maybe you could help us think through
10:37
Speaker1: how does a replanter or church renewal system.
10:41
Speaker1: You know, leader, how do they help the church identify those hidden assumptions
10:48
Speaker1: that create the culture that's going to take out the best laid plans and the best strategy?
10:53
Speaker0: That's a great question. A great phrase, too. I think what came to my mind is
10:59
Speaker0: asking good questions and listening to the responses, because people will tell
11:04
Speaker0: you what the culture is like, right, if you ask the right questions or if you ask any questions.
11:09
Speaker0: So like you could say, man, how do church announcements get made?
11:14
Speaker0: Who decides? And then they might say, well, nobody knows.
11:19
Speaker0: I think somebody makes a decision somewhere. And okay, because you might be
11:22
Speaker0: a new pastor, and then all of a sudden you're like, that was a weird announcement
11:25
Speaker0: for a tomato fest three towns over.
11:29
Speaker0: Hey, how do announcements get made? And they tell you, well,
11:31
Speaker0: I'm not quite sure, but I think Bill does that. And then you go,
11:34
Speaker0: hey, Bill, how do announcements get made? He goes, well, there's not much going
11:37
Speaker0: on, so I'm looking for something all the time. And then of saying,
11:40
Speaker0: well, tell me about this tomato thing.
11:42
Speaker0: Well, it's like my cousin who's a pastor in this community does this tomato
11:45
Speaker0: thing, right? So what did you, you just like, oh my gosh, okay,
11:47
Speaker0: we found this out, right?
11:49
Speaker0: But there's deeper ones that are less administrative and more consequential.
11:52
Speaker0: Like, why is this church so afraid,
11:56
Speaker0: conflict, right? Or you might say this, why is this church, it seems like some
12:01
Speaker0: people are afraid to take risks,
12:04
Speaker0: and make bold decisions. Tell me about that. Am I reading that right?
12:07
Speaker0: Well, yeah. You know, one time we tried to change the time that Sunday school
12:11
Speaker0: met and like people got mad and left the church.
12:13
Speaker1: Right? So you're noticing and you're naming. You're noticing it and then you're
12:17
Speaker1: naming it and then you're drawing it out into a question.
12:20
Speaker0: Yeah. And I think the story tells you the pain point that describes the response
12:28
Speaker0: that creates the culture.
12:29
Speaker0: So, you know, we don't deal with our problems because we don't want people to leave.
12:34
Speaker0: Well, the truth of that is people will leave because you don't deal with your
12:39
Speaker0: pain points and your problem.
12:40
Speaker1: Right?
12:40
Speaker0: Sometimes it is a culture that the leader creates, right? I mean,
12:44
Speaker0: we all as leaders hate this when somebody rolls in and says this.
12:48
Speaker0: Well, if you've been somewhere five years, the place is like you are,
12:52
Speaker0: Like you, you are, it's, it's who you are, right? It's the culture you've created. Right.
12:57
Speaker0: And I just pulled five years as a marketer. I don't know. I mean,
12:59
Speaker0: but the longer you're there, the more the culture is like you.
13:02
Speaker0: I think you can't pin culture on somebody who's been there a year or two years. Right.
13:06
Speaker0: But three to five years, the culture is probably becoming like you.
13:10
Speaker0: So if it's a particular way, it's either you or you're something you're allowing. We'll say that.
13:16
Speaker1: That's a good way to put it.
13:18
Speaker0: Because I think, too, Chris, what I would say is we put the right leader,
13:23
Speaker0: we can find the right leader, the right pastor, a godly pastor, a gifted pastor.
13:27
Speaker0: We can put him in the wrong culture, and the culture will destroy that pastor.
13:34
Speaker0: And so it's not always just the pastor's issue and leadership.
13:38
Speaker0: Sometimes it is the bad system. It is the bad culture. It's unhealthy,
13:43
Speaker0: unbiblical culture where sin has become embedded.
13:46
Speaker0: And so I think it's a little complex, but I think you ask good questions,
13:50
Speaker0: you think about it, you make reflections, you ask follow-up questions,
13:53
Speaker0: and you try to unearth why is the church the way it is and tell me the stories. What happened?
13:59
Speaker1: Yeah, that's so good. Yeah, I think getting into those core level questions
14:04
Speaker1: is something that I, as when I was a young pastor trying to replant,
14:09
Speaker1: renew a church, I was seeing all the things that were broken.
14:12
Speaker1: And I made this assumption that other people wanted those things fixed.
14:17
Speaker1: After all, they were coming to my office and saying things like,
14:20
Speaker1: hey, pastor, we need to we need to grow the church. We need more kids in the
14:24
Speaker1: nursery. And I'm like, all right, let's go do it.
14:27
Speaker1: What I wasn't realizing was that there was a whole culture that had been designed
14:33
Speaker1: against the very things that they stated that they wanted.
14:38
Speaker1: And there were all kinds of not just strategic or methodological realities,
14:44
Speaker1: there were cultural realities
14:46
Speaker1: about the way they made decisions, about the things they were afraid of,
14:50
Speaker1: about the things that they really loved, which
14:53
Speaker1: was comfort and complacency and doing church the way it had been. And they're real.
15:00
Speaker1: Pressure point was they were like, why can't we just do the church that we like
15:05
Speaker1: and have more people come with the leaders doing what we want them to do?
15:10
Speaker1: And so it's those kinds of cultural realities that I think so often end up dominating
15:18
Speaker1: the entire renewal process. And
15:23
Speaker1: The church planner, the church renewers, he's coming out and he's like,
15:28
Speaker1: I'm bringing right doctrine, I'm bringing right truths, I'm trying to lead the
15:32
Speaker1: people spiritually, and we're going to be on mission for Jesus.
15:35
Speaker1: And they've made the assumption that that's actually what the church wants,
15:40
Speaker1: when in reality, their deepest desires are for other things.
15:44
Speaker1: And that often shapes that culture. And I think, I guess that's what I would
15:48
Speaker1: just add as perhaps an additional question is really trying to drill down into
15:54
Speaker1: what is it that people actually really want?
15:59
Speaker1: What's the heart desire that's prevailing against this other desire that they may have?
16:06
Speaker1: They may hold them in a complex relationship of desire where they're saying,
16:10
Speaker1: yeah, I really want to reach my neighbor, but really what I want more is to not be uncomfortable.
16:16
Speaker1: Or have to change. And those kinds of things can just eat us when we're trying
16:21
Speaker1: to lead a church through change. And you're going, well, what's wrong with these people?
16:26
Speaker1: I'm giving them what they asked for, what they wanted, right?
16:28
Speaker1: I mean, they called me to do this.
16:31
Speaker1: And so often, I think that becomes a reality. Pastor Chase.
16:34
Speaker2: All right, let's talk about, this will probably be my last question.
16:38
Speaker2: I think it's a very important thing to wrestle with. A lot of the people that
16:42
Speaker2: would be listening to this are Baptist churches, congregational churches.
16:46
Speaker2: There's going to be voting and that sort of thing. And you talk about in your
16:50
Speaker2: article that readiness to move forward doesn't necessarily require 100% approval or unanimity.
16:59
Speaker2: But you also kind of warned that taking a vote about change and renewal and
17:05
Speaker2: replanting too early on can cause really difficult resistance and
17:13
Speaker2: division and all of that kind of thing.
17:15
Speaker2: So how can leaders recognize when it's time to vote, when it's time to make
17:21
Speaker2: a decision and how, how do they handle that whole, you know,
17:25
Speaker2: well, we're at 90% approval, but not a hundred percent.
17:28
Speaker2: How do they navigate those difficult waters?
17:32
Speaker2: Almost no decision in the church, especially a really good, strong decision
17:37
Speaker2: is going to be a hundred percent.
17:41
Speaker2: So, so how do leaders navigate those kinds of issues, especially in congregational churches, Bob?
17:47
Speaker0: Yeah. Just to borrow a practical example, a lot of new pastors or new,
17:52
Speaker0: new to a church pastor or replanter, they come in and they, they look at the
17:56
Speaker0: bylaws and they want to change the bylaws immediately.
17:59
Speaker0: Right. So let's say it's a primarily a congregational church and there's varieties
18:05
Speaker0: of congregationalism, right? There's, We vote on everything, congregationalism.
18:09
Speaker0: We vote on the most important things and a few things, congregationalism.
18:13
Speaker0: And some churches are somewhere in between.
18:16
Speaker0: Most of the time, the bylaws are in a declining church if they've been adopted and amended over time.
18:23
Speaker0: They've been amended to handle difficulties that have come up in the church,
18:28
Speaker0: to rules against this or that, right?
18:31
Speaker0: And so, in terms of governance, you may see some inefficiencies and ineffective,
18:37
Speaker0: ways of making decisions.
18:39
Speaker0: Or you bring something like, you know, the bylaws, which is let's vote on the
18:42
Speaker0: way we vote on things, right?
18:45
Speaker0: And it's your third month in, the people don't know who you are and you don't
18:50
Speaker0: have a level of trust where they know that you're a faithful shepherd that listens
18:55
Speaker0: to the congregation and that won't make rash decisions, right?
19:00
Speaker0: And so a premature vote is a vote that you're pretty sure will barely pass or
19:06
Speaker0: you might not get it to pass, right? So what do you do?
19:11
Speaker0: Is changing the bylaws the most important thing? Maybe. maybe not,
19:16
Speaker0: is building trust and gaining trust.
19:19
Speaker0: And helping people see that decisions are going to be based in God's Word and
19:23
Speaker0: based on the Spirit's leadership and a sense of the leaders and being in unity.
19:28
Speaker0: If you can get there, people will relax a little bit more and they'll be ready for some things.
19:34
Speaker0: And so when we rush a vote, we probably want the headaches to go away and we
19:39
Speaker0: want life to be easier for us.
19:41
Speaker0: And that's not the primary driver. It should not be the primary driver for addressing
19:46
Speaker0: something that needs a congregational vote.
19:48
Speaker0: Now, sometimes you face emergencies and let's say your thresholds of financial
19:54
Speaker0: approval are low and you need a piece of equipment or you need something like
19:59
Speaker0: shepherding people through that.
20:00
Speaker0: But what I was referring to mainly here was the idea of trying to set a long-lasting
20:06
Speaker0: directional decision for a church in a manner that's too premature, right?
20:11
Speaker0: Because you haven't earned the right to be trusted and you haven't earned the right to lead.
20:16
Speaker0: I forget which pastor told me this, but somewhere along the way,
20:19
Speaker0: he said, why don't you lead as though the bylaws are changed in your mind the
20:24
Speaker0: way you want them to be in this sense?
20:26
Speaker0: Lead confidently, lead biblically, and stop feeling like you have to ask permission
20:32
Speaker0: for everything, but adopt the posture of, I'm going to lead this church faithfully
20:36
Speaker0: forward and do that, right? And lead towards that.
20:41
Speaker0: Don't lead from a place of, I have to get permission to do everything.
20:44
Speaker0: Because I think what can happen is, and I have a pastor that is wrestling with
20:49
Speaker0: this, had a situation in his church where a guy did some work for the church
20:55
Speaker0: that they thought was going to be volunteer.
20:57
Speaker0: And then the guy said, no, actually, I was hoping to get paid.
21:00
Speaker0: And they never had a signed agreement. So it was just a disaster.
21:05
Speaker0: And so I was like, well, what did you do?
21:08
Speaker0: And he's like, well, I brought it to the deacons and the deacons voted on what
21:13
Speaker0: we should do. And I said, well, what did they vote to do?
21:14
Speaker0: He said, well, it was split right down the middle. Some didn't want to pay him and some did.
21:18
Speaker0: So what'd you do? He goes, we ended up paying him. I was like, oh my gosh.
21:24
Speaker0: Okay, so you voted on something that you'd had no unity on.
21:27
Speaker0: And so the process was messed up. The decision making was messed up.
21:32
Speaker0: And yeah, they were divided on what they should do.
21:36
Speaker0: And so I said, man, at that point, you probably put a pause on that because
21:40
Speaker0: you didn't have a, the guy didn't bill you didn't have an invoice,
21:43
Speaker0: you didn't have any legal obligation to pay him.
21:45
Speaker0: And maybe you could have walked away from that for a couple of days and then
21:47
Speaker0: come back to it and said, you know, what do we need to do?
21:50
Speaker0: But I think there was a pattern that was developing a permission getting that
21:53
Speaker0: wasn't required in the culture.
21:56
Speaker0: And so I think undoing that, you might have to make some decisions where you
22:00
Speaker0: just do some things and people who are used to voting on everything go,
22:04
Speaker0: why did you have the right to make that decision?
22:06
Speaker0: It's like, what do you mean? You know, let's have a conversation about it.
22:08
Speaker0: Well, we'd have to vote on everything, you know, or this is so important that
22:12
Speaker0: we want to make sure everybody's on the same page. Right. And we want to do that.
22:16
Speaker0: So that one's hard, right? But I think the sense is.
22:21
Speaker0: If you have a vote that doesn't pass, and we see this in the super majority
22:26
Speaker0: requirements of some of our bylaws, right, in terms of convention and domination
22:30
Speaker0: and church, there's some decisions that we said there has to be enough of a majority,
22:35
Speaker0: to say yes to this thing or no to this thing in order for it to be so.
22:39
Speaker0: And so I always heard you need to have a pretty good idea about when you take
22:43
Speaker0: something that's really important directionally or in the life of the body to a church.
22:48
Speaker0: You need to have a pretty good idea about the way the vote's going to go as much as you can.
22:53
Speaker0: And so I think don't rush a vote just because you want a thing,
22:57
Speaker0: but do rush a vote if it's an emergency thing, like if you've got to vote on it, right?
23:01
Speaker0: And so I think you have to depend on the spirit's wisdom, the scriptures,
23:05
Speaker0: and then the leaders around you or a mentor or a coach to help you understand,
23:09
Speaker0: man, do I take this to a boat? So hopefully that helped in some way.
23:13
Speaker2: Yes.
23:14
Speaker0: It's hard to do a blanket, here's how to handle boats, without like a specific...
23:19
Speaker0: I might go another way on it, depending on the specificity of this.
23:22
Speaker2: Yeah, awesome. That's some good insight. So I think Pastor Christopher has one
23:26
Speaker2: more closing question, and then we might just ask you for an exit story that
23:31
Speaker2: will encourage the potential church replanders that are listening.
23:35
Speaker2: Go ahead, Pastor Christopher.
23:36
Speaker1: So, Bob, I'm going to stir up a little bit, potentially a little bit of controversy here at the end.
23:43
Speaker1: And since I've got you as the guest, and I know that Bob is not afraid of controversy, seat here. So,
23:51
Speaker1: We don't know. Chase might even end up having to cut this one from our recording
23:56
Speaker1: here, but we're going to ask it anyway.
23:57
Speaker1: So one of the as an old guy, as an old guy who's been around doing this,
24:03
Speaker1: this work of renewal for a long season.
24:05
Speaker1: And one of the things that's been so encouraging to me is to see through some
24:10
Speaker1: emphases in some of our SBC seminaries, a strong emphasis on
24:16
Speaker1: right doctrine, faithful preaching of the word, earnest prayer, healthy ecclesiology
24:25
Speaker1: of the church.
24:26
Speaker1: And I celebrate all of those things.
24:30
Speaker1: But I get into interviews and discussions and dialogues with so many young replanters
24:37
Speaker1: that say, these things are essential for healthy long-term church renewal.
24:41
Speaker1: And I say yes and amen to all of that.
24:44
Speaker1: And then I've come to the place recently where I say, but they are not sufficient.
24:50
Speaker1: They are necessary, but they are not sufficient.
24:53
Speaker1: You're preaching on Sunday morning the right doctrine, the right way, your church being
24:59
Speaker1: In healthy prayer, getting the ecclesiology of the church right,
25:04
Speaker1: getting your nine or 12 marks set up, whatever it is
25:09
Speaker1: that you've got, that that's actually insufficient for long-term healthy change.
25:15
Speaker1: And we've been sort of developing this idea of an ecology, what's needed for
25:21
Speaker1: a holistic ecology of renewal. And we might do a future podcast,
25:26
Speaker1: may invite you back on to reflect with us some on this.
25:31
Speaker1: There are other critical things. Does the church have a united,
25:35
Speaker1: clear sense of their mission?
25:37
Speaker1: Do they have strategic outreach plans that are effective and evaluated on a
25:42
Speaker1: regular basis to reach their particular community?
25:46
Speaker1: What's their disciple-making pathway? Do they have a disciple- making pathway?
25:52
Speaker1: I've been told by pastors, like, the most important disciple-making I could do is on Sunday morning.
25:59
Speaker1: And there's a sense in which I go, yes, but also no, right?
26:06
Speaker1: And, you know, questions about like, do you have honest and effective stewardship?
26:10
Speaker1: What's your partnership level like?
26:13
Speaker1: Who are you developing? Who are you multiplying into? These kinds of things,
26:18
Speaker1: I think, are all necessary components to fit into that ecology of renewal.
26:24
Speaker1: So I might have just, even in my statement just now, really upset some folks
26:28
Speaker1: that are like, nope, it's the preaching of the word. It's the prayer of the
26:33
Speaker1: people that are just, that's it. That's all. You don't need to add to that.
26:37
Speaker1: But I think of even some of our renewed gurus like Mark Clifton,
26:42
Speaker1: who boldly says in Reclaiming Glory, look, if you can't disciple one guy one-on-one
26:46
Speaker1: and develop him into a leader, you have no business replanting a church, right?
26:51
Speaker1: So here's the question to Bob Bickford, what are some of those things that you
26:56
Speaker1: would say are neglected essentials that we, yeah, we've got the preaching of
27:03
Speaker1: the word, we've got the prayer,
27:06
Speaker1: We're moving towards healthy ecclesiology, but you go, man, I'm just not seeing
27:13
Speaker1: the replanters or renew guys hitting these things as well as perhaps as much
27:20
Speaker1: as they should. Or maybe you just disagree with me, which is fine too.
27:23
Speaker0: No, I mean, I think...
27:24
Speaker0: I don't disagree with you. I think you've enumerated a number of things in addition
27:28
Speaker0: to preaching and praying and discipleship pathways and outreach and all those sorts of things.
27:33
Speaker0: I think what I might add to that to not dilute some of the things you use,
27:38
Speaker0: the thing that I think is glaringly absent in a lot of healthy churches,
27:44
Speaker0: is what we would call restorative discipleship or church discipline.
27:49
Speaker0: And so a culture that, as you said, so I'll ground that in scripture.
27:55
Speaker0: So Colossians 1, 28 and 29 has always been like just my bedrock replant verse.
28:00
Speaker0: So, you know, Paul writes about his ministry, him we proclaim.
28:04
Speaker0: So he says, him we proclaim, warning and teaching everyone with all wisdom that
28:07
Speaker0: we may present everyone mature in Christ.
28:09
Speaker0: For this I toil in labor, working with all the strength that he powerfully works
28:13
Speaker0: with him. So just unpacking that real quick, centered on the gospel and the
28:17
Speaker0: proclamation of Jesus. It's him we proclaim.
28:19
Speaker0: And then he says this, and this is where we're deficient. Warning, warning, warning.
28:22
Speaker0: We were not taught in scripture or excuse me, in seminary how to warn.
28:29
Speaker0: We just didn't take a class. Here's how to give an effective warning.
28:31
Speaker0: The warning function is a declarative statement that puts the truth of God's
28:36
Speaker0: word into someone's mind in order for them to evaluate what they're doing and
28:41
Speaker0: if it's consistent or not.
28:43
Speaker0: With God's word and God's way.
28:45
Speaker0: So that's kind of a long definition of the word warning, but he says warning and teaching,
28:51
Speaker0: Gospel proclamation, warning and teaching, and then wisdom and execution of those things.
28:57
Speaker0: The goal of which is maturity, right? Not a church that meets an external criteria
29:02
Speaker0: that a church planning network has designed for me or a denomination or my dreams or my cultures.
29:08
Speaker0: That's what it's like. The goal is maturity, presenting everyone the church rise.
29:13
Speaker0: And then the reality is, Paul says, for this I toil.
29:16
Speaker0: That means I work really hard for this. I really struggle for this.
29:20
Speaker0: But I don't work in my own energy. I work in the energy that He works powerfully
29:24
Speaker0: through me. So I would bedrock that back to those two verses and just say,
29:28
Speaker0: all the things that you've mentioned are necessary.
29:31
Speaker0: I could also be an effective warner and a teacher, and I could do it with wisdom.
29:35
Speaker0: I could have an effective discipleship strategy.
29:38
Speaker0: I could be a nightmare in terms of pastoral care or administration or finding,
29:44
Speaker0: a delegator or all those things.
29:47
Speaker0: I could do all of that with not ever praying and do it in my own strength and
29:50
Speaker0: have some fruitfulness, but not have kingdom fruitfulness.
29:53
Speaker0: And so I don't think it's a few things, nine things, 12 things.
29:57
Speaker0: I think it's all the things.
29:59
Speaker0: And I don't think you have an idea of where you're insufficient unless you're
30:04
Speaker0: leading with a group of men and elders and other leaders and women who are speaking
30:09
Speaker0: into the life of the congregation.
30:10
Speaker0: And if you're not doing regular evaluation about all the facets of ministry,
30:15
Speaker0: you're probably missing an opportunity to deal with some things and strengthen
30:18
Speaker0: some things that might be helpful in the ministry that God's called you to in
30:23
Speaker0: the location where He's placed you.
30:25
Speaker0: So I don't disagree with you. I think you're right.
30:27
Speaker0: We've got to do it all. And that's the hard part.
30:30
Speaker0: And I think when we think it's a few things or if we just get one thing right,
30:35
Speaker0: we're kind of fooling ourselves.
30:37
Speaker2: Right?
30:38
Speaker0: There's two researchers that researched church decline, guys named Hodge and
30:42
Speaker0: Rosen. And I think they did their research in the late 60s and 70s,
30:46
Speaker0: early 70s, long time ago.
30:48
Speaker0: And one of the things they said is it's not one single issue that leads to the
30:52
Speaker0: decline in church. It's multiple issues.
30:54
Speaker0: And so the church that all of us, every church that we enter into has some area of
31:01
Speaker0: work that needs to take place in order to bring health and vitality to it.
31:05
Speaker0: It's our joy and our journey to discover it.
31:08
Speaker0: And it's God's Word that shows us how to respond to it.
31:13
Speaker0: And it's the coaching and the mentoring of others that help us be efficient in it.
31:18
Speaker0: And so those are the things I would say related to that question.
31:21
Speaker0: And so if you're considering replanting or you're pastoring an existing church
31:26
Speaker0: or you're struggling and just go, man, I don't know, man, get along with God,
31:28
Speaker0: get in prayer, get with your leaders, ask good questions,
31:31
Speaker0: evaluate everything very thoroughly in this humility walk forward to realize
31:36
Speaker0: there are probably some areas that need to be shored up and receive that truth with joy.
31:40
Speaker0: And then if you're not strong in that area, find some leaders who are,
31:45
Speaker0: and then by prayerful invitation, invite them to help the church grow in,
31:51
Speaker0: health and vitality in those areas, and then be happy with the progress as it unfolds.
31:56
Speaker1: Amen. And I'm just going to add to that. Here's my warning to the replanters,
32:02
Speaker1: planters, leaders, take what you just heard from Bob earnestly and seriously.
32:07
Speaker1: And I do mean that sometimes there's an avoidance of the challenge of complex
32:14
Speaker1: ministry, and we tend to lean into what we prefer to do.
32:20
Speaker1: So if I really enjoy preaching, I'm going to neglect stewardship issues in the church.
32:25
Speaker1: If I'm okay with conflict, Maybe I am pretty good at church discipline,
32:29
Speaker1: but I'm not maybe doing that shepherding, loving work very well.
32:34
Speaker1: And we all have those personal areas that we've got to do growth in that church
32:40
Speaker1: renewal is not simply about renewing the church.
32:43
Speaker1: It's about us being renewed by the power of the Holy Spirit in an ongoing fashion
32:48
Speaker1: and us growing and maturing into that image of Christ ourselves and can't do
32:53
Speaker1: the one work without the other in parallel. Pastor Jase?
32:58
Speaker2: Bob, this has been great. This is why we do this podcast. Bob is the head of
33:03
Speaker2: the National Baptist Association, and he has a ton of experience with this.
33:07
Speaker2: I think anybody listening to this is going to get some really practical,
33:14
Speaker2: strong leadership advice. And I'm so grateful for your time,
33:19
Speaker2: your insight, your wisdom, Bob.
33:23
Speaker2: As you're talking, I'm thinking of all these pastor friends and leaders that
33:26
Speaker2: I'm going to share this podcast with as soon as it's out, because not only do
33:30
Speaker2: I need to hear it, I think a lot of people need to hear it.
33:33
Speaker2: So may the Lord bless you for the time you put in to this. I know you just got
33:37
Speaker2: back from Atlanta. I know your time is valuable and we are so grateful.
33:42
Speaker2: And I don't say that lightly. I say that with 100% sincerity.
33:46
Speaker2: Can you, as we exit, can you leave us with a story, one last dash of insight
33:53
Speaker2: that will give pastors and leaders and those who are in struggling churches hope for the future.
33:59
Speaker0: Yeah. One of my favorite stories is from the replant years in St. Louis.
34:03
Speaker0: There's a lady named Dottie, who was a day one-er from Sherwood Baptist Church.
34:07
Speaker0: And she was in her 90s when we came to the church.
34:12
Speaker0: And just a sweet lady put together. I mean, and they all said,
34:15
Speaker0: we love Dottie. She's a great prayer.
34:18
Speaker0: Whatever concern you have, just give to Dottie and pray, and the Lord easily
34:20
Speaker0: the answer is Dottie's prayer. So she was gone on the day that the church voted
34:23
Speaker0: for me, but I met her shortly after. Well, things started changing at the church
34:27
Speaker0: and Dottie thought it was a good time to talk with me about all of her concerns.
34:31
Speaker0: On Sunday morning, she would leave her Sunday school class, skip it and come
34:34
Speaker0: knock on the study door and then sit down in my study and then tell me about
34:37
Speaker0: all the things she was concerned about.
34:39
Speaker0: I was like, oh, Dottie. I was like, hey, it's really hard for me to preach a
34:44
Speaker0: sermon after we've talked about all the things you're concerned about,
34:47
Speaker0: but I'll make a deal with you.
34:48
Speaker0: I will, I'll come to your house once a week and you can go out your list and
34:52
Speaker0: we can talk about everything that you want. And I'll bring my wife.
34:55
Speaker0: And so we started doing that.
34:57
Speaker0: And Dottie became a friend. Her concerns began to diminish.
35:00
Speaker0: And she began to share in our members' meetings, I'm just staying here.
35:04
Speaker0: I know some of my friends have left, but I'm staying here because I want to see what God does.
35:08
Speaker0: And so she began to love the church, and she stuck it out when almost all of her friends left.
35:14
Speaker0: She began to pray for the young ladies in our church, and they began to have
35:17
Speaker0: babies, because they were trying to start families, and it was hard for them.
35:21
Speaker0: And so Dottie would pray and they would have a baby and Dottie would,
35:24
Speaker0: her practice was she would always make a new Afghan blanket for the new babies.
35:28
Speaker0: And after about four or five of them, she was like, I can't make any more of
35:32
Speaker0: these. Like there's too many, like there's too many babies. We had 25 babies
35:35
Speaker0: born over a year and a half time period.
35:37
Speaker0: So Dottie gave up blanket making, but she did not give up baby welcoming.
35:43
Speaker0: And so, I mean, just so grateful for Dottie and her work and her love.
35:47
Speaker0: And she's still alive today. She's 102, and she's still part of that church. Wow.
35:53
Speaker0: There's older people in your replants who might start out a little bit sour,
35:58
Speaker0: but are just the sweetest people when you befriend them, love them,
36:02
Speaker0: pastor them well, and understand that.
36:05
Speaker0: God loves them, and they can love you, and your church family can grow to love them.
36:11
Speaker0: And so I would just say, find the Dotties, celebrate them, have fun,
36:15
Speaker0: get to know them, laugh, and enjoy the journey of replanting a church.
36:19
Speaker0: It's going to be messy. It's not going to move fast like you want it to.
36:22
Speaker0: It's going to frustrate the heck out of you, but it's going to make you more
36:24
Speaker0: Christ-like, and you're going to enjoy it. So just stay up.
36:28
Speaker2: Fantastic. Thank you so much, Bob. God bless you, everybody.
36:31
Speaker2: Check out Bob's blog at bobbickford.com, B-I-C-K-F-O-R-D, bobbickford.com.
36:39
Speaker2: Bob, thanks, man. That was awesome.
36:41
Speaker2: I'm aware we kept you a little bit longer than we should have,
36:44
Speaker2: but I feel like 20 minutes were great.
36:46
Speaker0: Always good to talk to my friends from California. Appreciate you guys.
36:49
Speaker2: As always, Pastor Christopher, interviews make me thirsty. Let's drink some wild and wacky sodas.
36:57
Speaker1: Pastor Chase, I have a question for you.
37:00
Speaker2: I'm ready.
37:00
Speaker1: Do you know what Baishir Kola is?
37:05
Speaker2: I recognize the word cola. That's all.
37:09
Speaker1: So apparently, and I apologize to all of our Mandarin listeners because I am
37:15
Speaker1: confident that the Mandarin tones matter. I understand that,
37:20
Speaker1: but I don't speak Mandarin.
37:22
Speaker1: But I am trying to say the mandarin chinese name for pepsi cola oh nice and we're getting to
37:29
Speaker1: try a pepsi zero sugar from the chinese market this is apparently a different
37:39
Speaker1: formula than what is in the united states there
37:44
Speaker2: You could say that again
37:45
Speaker1: Yeah yeah so something interesting about that last word which i don't know how to say properly.
37:54
Speaker1: It has multiple meanings in it and apparently can suggest a hundred things or
38:01
Speaker1: everything and also carry the sense of happy and joyful.
38:06
Speaker1: So I am hoping that today's soda will make us happy and joyful.
38:12
Speaker2: I think it will, Pastor Christopher. For one, the flavor that this is supposed
38:17
Speaker2: to be is zero sugar, strawberry milkshake.
38:25
Speaker2: I can honestly say that I've never had a strawberry milkshake flavored beverage
38:31
Speaker2: other than a strawberry milkshake, to be clear.
38:34
Speaker1: I, too, have never had that. So I am curious about this product.
38:42
Speaker2: I can't wait. Yeah, you know what's even better than the flavor?
38:46
Speaker2: I don't know. I haven't tried the flavor yet.
38:48
Speaker2: But look, you see that hot top there?
38:51
Speaker1: This is a throwback to 1975, right?
38:55
Speaker2: Yes, I have not opened a pop top like that in decades.
39:00
Speaker2: And I love that feeling. It's easy to cut yourself, but I love that peeling
39:06
Speaker2: of the aluminum away from aluminum. And I'd love to know how they made pop tops
39:10
Speaker2: like that, because it's almost like wizardry.
39:13
Speaker1: Wizardry. Weird and wizardry here.
39:17
Speaker1: So, yeah, we've got this Chinese Pepsi Cola Zero with a specifically unique flavor.
39:28
Speaker2: We do. Before we drink it, though, let me prolong the tension a little bit.
39:33
Speaker2: You lectured us earlier on the history of Coca-Cola. I'm wondering if you know
39:38
Speaker2: much about the history of Pepsi-Cola, do you?
39:41
Speaker1: No, I do not. And let me just confess before you elucidate that I am a lifelong
39:48
Speaker1: opponent of generally all products Pepsi.
39:51
Speaker1: So this just pretty much unless it was the Mirinda brand, which was a company
39:57
Speaker1: they bought out of Spain.
39:58
Speaker1: I've always been a Coca-Cola fan ardently, probably as much as I'm a San Francisco
40:04
Speaker1: Giants fan. So getting me to drink this is something that only this show could do.
40:09
Speaker1: But please carry on and tell us some facts about this nefarious competitor to
40:15
Speaker1: the great Coca-Cola Cup.
40:16
Speaker2: I will. I'm wondering if I need to preach to you about prejudice from the scriptures,
40:21
Speaker2: however, because my goodness, this soda racism, I think Revelation 4 and 5 pictures.
40:29
Speaker2: People from every tribe, nation, and language at the foot of the cross, worshiping Jesus.
40:36
Speaker2: And I think all sodas from all cultures are going to be there too,
40:41
Speaker2: Pastor Christopher, including PepsiCo and Coca-Cola.
40:45
Speaker1: It is quite possible. You know, when I was a young man, I would have argued
40:50
Speaker1: this point extensively and said all Pepsi drinkers were likely bound for purgatory. Wow.
40:57
Speaker1: If not deeper into other places. You mean hell. Well, you know,
41:02
Speaker1: can we say that on the air?
41:04
Speaker2: I think so. Christian podcast.
41:06
Speaker1: All right. Well, there you go.
41:07
Speaker2: We're Baptists. We believe in hell.
41:09
Speaker1: Right. But I have now matured in my perspective, and I believe that all Pepsi
41:17
Speaker1: drinkers will be isolated to a...
41:21
Speaker1: To a backwards corner of the goodness of heaven because everybody else will
41:26
Speaker1: be drinking Coke products.
41:29
Speaker2: Wait a minute. A what now? A backwards corner.
41:34
Speaker2: Is this in the Baptist faith and message that there's a backwards corner of
41:39
Speaker2: heaven? I've never read this.
41:41
Speaker2: Well, stop the podcast. We've got to do an episode on the backwards corner of
41:45
Speaker2: heaven now. I'm probably going to be there one way or the other.
41:49
Speaker1: Well, some of us belong there. I need to learn about it. So,
41:52
Speaker1: yeah. So what were you going to tell me about Pepsi?
41:55
Speaker2: I'm so shocked. I don't know if I can remember it. But let's talk a little bit
42:01
Speaker2: about the history of Pepsi. And I will say, like Pastor Christopher,
42:05
Speaker2: I am very much a Coke over Pepsi guy. I love Mountain Dew.
42:09
Speaker2: I have a lot of brand loyalty to Mountain Dew because it was my favorite drink growing up.
42:13
Speaker2: But I am very much a Coca-Cola person, but not nearly as prejudicial and,
42:21
Speaker2: dare I say, hateful as Mr.
42:23
Speaker2: Christopher is towards Pepsi-Cola. But Pepsi started out as Brad's drink.
42:28
Speaker2: It was discovered in 1893
42:33
Speaker2: by a pharmacist named Caleb Bradham in New Bern, North Carolina,
42:38
Speaker2: again called Brad's drink.
42:41
Speaker2: It was changed names to Pepsi-Cola in 1898.
42:47
Speaker2: To highlight its supposed ability to relieve dyspepsia.
42:53
Speaker2: Pastor Christopher, do you know what dyspepsia is?
42:56
Speaker1: Yeah, it's like, is it heartburn?
42:59
Speaker2: It's like indigestion and heartburn. Very well, good job. You must have been born in the 1800s.
43:05
Speaker1: I just experienced a tremendous amount of heartburn, sir.
43:08
Speaker2: I'm sorry to hear that.
43:09
Speaker1: I've had some dyspepsia.
43:10
Speaker2: Well, you should drink more Pepsi Cola. Your prejudice is costed,
43:15
Speaker2: apparently, because the pharmacist says it will help it.
43:18
Speaker2: And the root word ties to pepsin, which is a stomach enzyme that breaks down
43:23
Speaker2: protein. So pharmacist Bradham thought that this would help your digestion.
43:28
Speaker2: And we're going to put that theory to the test.
43:31
Speaker1: Let's go for it.
43:32
Speaker2: Here we go. I've been looking forward to this. Oh, what a...
43:36
Speaker1: Oh, man, I remembered how to pull the tab.
43:42
Speaker2: I did too, man. Muscle memory was perfect. I also remember about one in 140
43:47
Speaker2: times you would just slice your finger up on this thing. This thing is dangerous.
43:53
Speaker1: Yeah. Okay.
43:55
Speaker2: It smells strong. It smells like strawberry milkshake, frosted flakes to me.
43:59
Speaker1: I did not know that was a combo there. It's pretty good.
44:04
Speaker1: Strawberry milkshake, frosted flakes. All right.
44:08
Speaker2: Oh, that smells great. I hope It's great because it smells phenomenal It's like
44:13
Speaker2: a party in my nose And everyone is invited Oh, Pastor Chase Did you taste it?
44:19
Speaker2: I did Oh, you're faster than me You sound disappointed No, no This is not what
44:25
Speaker2: I wanted out of this I'm conflicted Oh, yeah Boy, that's chemically Yeah
44:33
Speaker2: I definitely taste the strawberry, but I also taste the phenylchlorohexane-74-lead-bisulfame-methane,
44:44
Speaker2: or whatever chemical this is. It's got a weird chemical in it.
44:48
Speaker1: It is like tasting a strawberry milkshake float.
44:54
Speaker2: It is, yeah, but not that good.
44:57
Speaker1: With somebody pouring in a little bit of their gasoline.
45:04
Speaker2: Disclaimer the every church flourishing podcast is only humorously mentioning
45:10
Speaker2: chemicals in gasoline in the context of this beverage it does not have either
45:15
Speaker2: thing in it it just has a weird taste that we're not used to thank you
45:19
Speaker1: Thank you for that disclaimer i don't know i
45:23
Speaker1: i will now say the The flavor combo of a strawberry milkshake cola with paint
45:30
Speaker1: thinner is not a flavor combo that I would have expected.
45:35
Speaker1: I really don't know what to do with this, Pastor Chase.
45:38
Speaker1: It's not the worst thing I've put in my mouth, but it's not great. No, it's not great.
45:43
Speaker1: It's not Lester's Ranch soda, okay? No, it's not terrible like that.
45:48
Speaker2: I just thought it was going to be good.
45:49
Speaker1: Yeah, I'm going to give it one more sip. And to be honest, that's probably going
45:53
Speaker1: to be it for me, because I don't know that I can do more than that on this one. Nope.
45:58
Speaker1: I just. So in my recent soda reviews, I've been talking about if I was wandering
46:03
Speaker1: an exotic street and I saw this soda, would I pick it up?
46:08
Speaker1: If I was wandering the streets of Beijing or Gungjiao and I saw this soda, I would pass this by.
46:17
Speaker1: I would pass it by like the Pharisee and the priest passed by
46:26
Speaker1: the wounded Jewish man the Samaritan picked up, right?
46:29
Speaker1: Yeah, I would, I would pass it by. I would not, I would not pick this up.
46:33
Speaker2: Well, as the fat boys say, if you pass me a Pepsi, strawberry,
46:37
Speaker2: milkshake, zero sugar, I'm going to pass it by.
46:40
Speaker1: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Right there.
46:43
Speaker2: That's it for me. How many, speaking of the fat boys, how many Spurgeons would
46:47
Speaker2: you give this? No offense to Charles.
46:49
Speaker1: I do love Charles Spurgeon and his vigorous appetite for food and cigars.
46:57
Speaker2: Yes.
46:58
Speaker1: But i you know i'm gonna give this like one spurge it's not an oestein it's not
47:06
Speaker1: i i could drink it yeah it's not a lester's soda that we've had on here or but
47:14
Speaker1: yeah i just wouldn't enjoy this to be honest nah
47:16
Speaker2: It's the aftertaste is pretty brutal the smell is good the can is
47:21
Speaker1: Fun can is creative. Love it.
47:24
Speaker2: The initial taste is fine. So I'm going to give it a two Spurgeon.
47:28
Speaker2: It doesn't disgust me, but the aftertaste is a little discouraging.
47:32
Speaker1: Well, if I had dyspepsia, I would pass this by and seek another product to assist
47:39
Speaker1: with my need for relief, sir.
47:42
Speaker2: Yeah. And hey, if you're part of the Chinese Communist Party or Pepsi China
47:47
Speaker2: and you need to get in touch with the one who compared your beverage to paint thinner.
47:52
Speaker2: Reach out to me, Chase Thompson, Every Church Flourishing, and I'll give you
47:56
Speaker2: Pastor Christopher Cole's home address, comrade.
48:01
Speaker2: Well, if Pastor Christopher or I disappear in the coming months,
48:07
Speaker2: there's always a select few number of enemies that could have accomplished that.
48:11
Speaker2: But after that particular Soda Review,
48:14
Speaker2: I think we have both added to our individual lists. So pray for us.
48:20
Speaker2: In more serious news, the GCASBC Great Commission Association yearly conference
48:28
Speaker2: is coming up this Friday and Saturday.
48:31
Speaker2: October 8th and 9th. And if you want information about that,
48:35
Speaker2: please do check out our website, gcasbc.org.
48:40
Speaker2: And we will see you next week as we launch two new episodes talking about church
48:47
Speaker2: renewal and revitalization from the inside.
48:50
Speaker2: Thanks for listening. Good day to you and Godspeed.