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The Owner's Room: When You're Proud of the Team, But Still Burned Out as the Leader · Integrity at Scale™

• You can be both proud of your people and tired of leading them, of being a leader. You can also love what you've built and still not really wanna show up some days. This is not failure. I would say these things are not mutually exclusive. This is friction. And it's weird to be in that space where everything looks good on paper your team is solid, the practice is humming, but your tank is dry. You feel like you have nothing left to give. That's what this owner's room episode is about. My name is Dr. Tara Vossenkemper, and you are listening to the Culture Focus Practice podcast. Thank you, of course for joining me. Love having you here. This owner's room is about the space between burnout and what you've built. I would even say pride about what you've built and basically reflecting on and asking, you know, what does it mean when what used to feel good doesn't feel good anymore. And for those new to the owner's room, this is an exploratory space. There's no specific content or teaching focus or listicles or anything like that. There's a series of questions, usually five or six, and then there's one to two scenarios. And in real time, I am exploring all of those things, the questions and the scenarios. And that's pretty much it. So we are just going to dive in. Question number one, how do I feel about my business when I'm alone with it? No team, no outcomes, just me. Ooh, that is super interesting. How do I feel about my business when I'm alone with it? No team, no outcomes, just me. Okay, so I have two thoughts. One is that there's a part of me that feels proud. I really think highly of the people who are in my business, my employees, the people who make up my practice. I really, I just really like them. I, I think that the group is incredible. I think that the structure is intentional and thoughtful. So there is a part of me that feels proud of what's being built and. I don't know if it's just the way, this question is languaged that's fucking with me a little bit, but this concept of no team, no outcomes, just me, that makes me feel unmoored. That makes me feel untethered. How do you assess the state of something or how do I really get a sense for how I feel about something when I don't have any data on that thing? I'm not a creature that can make sense of my surroundings without some sort of feedback coming back at me. So for me, the way I feel about things is it's almost like it's constantly like evolving, you know, in real time. I don't, I don't have a business without my team. I don't have a business without outcomes that we can like look at. So I, I could just be obtuse right now and I'm sort of misunderstanding the question, or I'm not really getting what it's asking, but based on what I'm reading, the idea of not having a team or outcomes and it's just me alone with the business, I sort of feel like untethered from, well, that's not really the business then. Like, that's not what I built. So I don't, I don't feel connected to that and it makes me feel like I'm a drift at sea. I don't like that feeling. I don't want that. I'd rather have the data. I'd rather have the people, you know, but I will say, okay, so let me just finish the thought loop then, and I'll close it out and keep going. If the purpose of this question is that you're not getting direct feedback, like in that moment from your team, like your leadership team, for example, or I'm not looking at outcomes, I'm not looking at data about the business, and then it's just me and I'm just thinking about the business and I'm thinking about the future, or I'm, I'm sort of like feeling into it without people telling me something in that moment and without data telling me something in that moment, I still think I would feel pride. I still think that I would feel proud of what had been built. I would have a little more doubt. I always have doubt about things that are built because I don't ever trust, like nothing is stable and static. So for me, the doubt is like, all right, what's gonna give first and where, where is it gonna give, you know? So that sort of goes hand in hand with feeling proud and like, oh, I, I like what this is so. Yeah, I think I would still feel proud when I was alone with it, without data from people or outcomes, you know, right next to me. And again, sandwiched in with a little bit of doubt. Or maybe the doubt's like a little bit of seasoning on something. Like, it's not like part of the sandwich 'cause it's not that big, but it's consistent and it absolutely flavors the, the thing that I'm ingesting. So I think I'm gonna keep going. Okay, so question two is my exhaustion, physical, emotional, existential, or all of the above? It's all of the above. It just is all of the above. Um, what I will also say is that probably in different levels, like different amounts of each . A physical exhaustion for me, like I, I have three young children, eight, five, and two. My two and a half year old is absolutely strong-willed. She's a little mini me. My five and a half year old is absolutely a Tasmanian devil. And my 8-year-old is constantly curious. Not only is there, you know, constant exertion with having small kids, but then there's also each of their different flavors of personality and temperament and, you know, all of those things. I would never, ever change having my children. And it's still exhausting. It's sort of that and both, you know, it's, I love my kids and they're exhausting. They're exhausting in certain ways. Also fun as fuck. But that's a side note. So that is definitely physical exhaustion stuff. There's also sleep deprivation. I mean, I still, my sleep is disrupted still. Partially, this is my fault. I don't go to bed on time. I like having some quiet space at the very end of the day. 'cause I don't really have that at all in the middle of my day or in the beginning of my day. And so it's nice to have time where there's nothing except for whatever I want there to be. And I'm perimenopausal, so my hormones are constantly fucked up. I mean anybody in perimenopause or who has gone through it, knows what I'm talking about. My hormones are in flux constantly. And it's not something that I think you can quickly get used to, or at least I can't. And so there's all of this like physical stuff sort of happening. I think all of that feeds into emotional, but then with emotional, I think there's just not enough space and time for myself in life. My life is very full. I think a lot of us have very full lives and I don't really get to tend to my emotional world. I love emotions. I like feelings. Just period. You know? And I also think that I am not, and have not prioritized carving out space. To tend to just my emotional space, you know, my emotional world. I also doubt that I'm going to, there's too much else happening and there's not enough space and there's, there's genuinely not enough space and time for me to carve this out when it's not the most pressing concern for me. So it's maybe it sounds shitty. Maybe it sounds like you could make it happen. Yeah, theoretically I could. But at what cost? And realistically that cost is more to me than what I would get out of carving out emotional space and time. And just to clarify, I'm not saying that I'm dissociating from my feelings or that I'm not tuned into how I'm feeling. I specifically mean something like I am taking 20 minutes each day to journal or meditate or like intentionally doing something that's feeding or reflecting in my emotional world that's not happening. And I think it's coupled with just overwhelm from, again, it's one of those like, fuck, I love my kids so GD much and they're learning how to regulate. And that takes place through co-regulation with me or my husband. Like it's, it's us. So we have us and we have them, and that is the most important thing I absolutely need to help them figure out how to do this. And it still feeds back into, okay, that's less time, that's less time for me. I'm doing it over here. That means less over here. So there's physical, there's emotional, I think existential probably yes to this too. You know, it's funny 'cause I think it ties in with perimenopause, like fluctuating hormones in particular. But there's absolutely a sense of what am I doing and why? What am I prioritizing and why? What's most important and why? What has been most important doesn't feel most important anymore. That honestly, I don't wanna say feels new because I don't think that's exactly right. I'm constantly swimming in existential waters. I mean, I am sort of always asking and questioning and wondering why I am doing something or why something is of more value than another, or what I'm prioritizing and why. But I think that the addition of perimenopause and the subtraction of certain hormones has like fucked with this. It's like the questions that I'm asking are similar to the questions I've always kind of been asking myself and the answers are different, the answers are different. And so I think there's something in there that needs space and time to express, and that's happening in the midst of not having much space and time. And so it's this like just, it's this stretched too thin everywhere, you know? And so that is the exhaustion. I think the exhaustion is happening physically, emotionally, and existentially. You know, I say all of that. I'm wary that I'm coming across like my life is a drag and I'm miserable, and none of that is the case. And so I don't want it to come across like that at all. I love my life. I feel very sort of fulfilled on average. It feels very meaningful to me. I have a lot of pockets and moments of happiness and all of this other stuff is still true. And so it just sort of feels like all of this exhaustion, the life circumstance I'm in, the thing that I'm trying to build the family, the future that for my family, the all like the legacy we're trying to create, all of that is heavy and exhausting in certain ways, and I don't even think I would change it. There are some things that I would change that don't have anything to do with me, if that makes sense. It feels more like the changes I'd want are related to the structure of communities and sort of like societal norms. I feel like those are the things that I would really want to change and feel a little bit out of my, you know, control to do so. Man, I hope that I wasn't all over the fucking place with that. That's a really big question. It's a really big question and it's really relevant for me at the time of answering. So let's keep going, shall we? Question three, how do I define enough and do I ever let myself reach it? Well, fuck me. I hate this question. I hate this question. Oh my God, why do I hate this question you ask? Because literally, enoughness is a thing for me. It just is a thing for me. I never feel like I've done enough. I'm doing enough. There is enough. Like it's always enoughness. I am positive that if I went back and searched transcripts of all of my previous episodes, this would be something that would come up multiple times. I absolutely know that I've talked about this before, and so it's just funny like to have this question now is like, yeah, I don't, no, I don't know if I ever let myself reach it. I, you know what, that's not true. I don't even know if it's about letting myself reach it as it is reflective of my temperament and sort of like my way of being in the world. There's a lot of movement. My brain works fast. I sort of like, I'm like not living in the future in terms of I'm not present in my life right now, even if I'm exhausted and all that, I try to stay present. But when I'm thinking about life, when I'm like thinking about the future of the practice, I'm not always right now, in this moment when I'm problem solving, I'm right now, in this moment when we're trying to figure out something that's going wrong, when we're trying to come up with solutions, it's like right now. But when I'm thinking about my practice, I'm thinking about what's next, i'm thinking about where it's going. I'm thinking about what we're doing, like I'm, I'm sort of living in the future with it, if that makes sense. And again, that doesn't mean living in the future and not being present or sort of appreciating now, it's like visioning in my mind, like this is the visionary thing, is like, I see what is, I see what will be. And so I think like I'm not actively quote, letting myself reach it end quote or not. It's more like my way of being in the world is a little bit more vision oriented. And so I can look back and say, yeah, we did this thing, this thing, this thing, this thing. Of course, like we reach these goals, but the, at the point of reaching whatever the, let's say, goal is, I'm not there. Like I'm over there. And so. Sure. Like again, retrospect, I've let myself reach something, but in the moment I'm not feeling that way, if that makes sense. And real quick point of clarity, i'm also not like being self-critical or like judgmental or sort of like using a stick against myself. It's not like, well, we reach this goal, but you know, it's not enough. It's just that I'm already somewhere else. And so it's, oh fuck yeah. Okay. We're there. All right. But we're going here too. Like that's next. I almost actually, if you've seen K-pop demon hunters, if you haven't, you should. And maybe this is actually a bad analogy because Rumi is considered a workaholic and I don't know if I would give myself that language, but what I will say is in the beginning, like sort of the earlier scenes, you know, Mira and zoe are chanting Couch, couch, couch. And they have two weeks off and Rumi's already planning and scheming on releasing Golden and she boop launches it and like creeps up behind them on the couch with this creepy smile and like dress in her outfit. That's sort of it. Like I not, um, I mean I would say set aside the workaholic piece. 'Cause you know, if you have seen the movie then you understand. But if you haven't seen the movie, and again, you should, you won't understand. My point remains the same. That's what it's like. Like we've done this thing. It was great. Okay. What's next? It's sort of that it's, it's that. And again, like not with judgment, I'm just fucking busy, like we're doing this next, you know, might also feed into my exhaustion. I think there's that too. It might be worth a little reflection. Reflection . Okay. How do I define enough though? I don't fucking know. I don't know. I really don't like maybe a sense of peace, maybe a sense of like comfort with prolonged stillness. Maybe. I don't know. I don't actually know how to define this. And even the way I'm defining it, I'm like setting myself up to fail. I'm not gonna have prolonged stillness. I'm not gonna have prolonged peace with stillness. That's just not at all physiologically, mentally, cognitively, emotionally, like that is not my MO and I don't think that's possible. I think it's easier to define enoughness in terms of like financially what enoughness is. That's easy. 'cause it's sort of this like number like, oh yeah, that would feel like enough or that would be like consistently enough, that would feel good to do. But in terms of like personally, I don't, I don't really know. Let me follow this a little bit further though. I also am not actually sure that the enoughness piece at this point in my life, I think previously Sure, the opposite of what I'm about to say was probably true, but right now , I do not think enoughness feeds into the exhaustion. Because from a business perspective, consistently what I've been working towards is delegating and letting go and doing less and doing more things that are in my lane. So the irony in all of this and like talking about all of this, is that I'm way more in alignment with the visionary role in the purest sense that I see it. That feels so great, and i'm not actually sure that the enoughness that's happening is even related to the group practice stuff or I think that makes sense. But I think historically I was nose to the grindstone blinders on constantly like digging and going and sprinting and just sort of building multiple bridges as I'm running across them. I think that that behavior at that point in time was reflective of trying to chase a sense of enoughness, but now I don't feel like I'm trying to chase that sense of enoughness. I don't know if my definition allows me to ever achieve it. And like I said, if I ever let myself reach it, it's almost like hindsight, oh yeah, we reach that. Great, here's what we're going next. You know, it's sort of like that thing constantly. And I think it's funny too. I think just one more thing here and then I just need to be done because I could keep talking about this for a long time. I think that the other thing to this is maybe just something about the emotionality around all of it that I wonder how it sounds to other people as I'm talking out loud about it. I wonder if it sounds like I am running from something or I am pursuing something and I'm not aware of it, but that doesn't feel internally accurate. It feels like my temperament and my neurobiology and my probably neuro atypicality, you know, just if we're talking neuro stuff, all of it sort of comes together in such a way that what I'm describing doesn't feel bad. It feels typically invigorating and sort of fun. And I like living in the vision. I like, you know, like that stuff I really enjoy. And so I think maybe there's a sense of like maybe vulnerability. I'm not exactly sure if that's even the right word. I think there's a little bit of weariness that what I'm saying is going to be misperceived and slash or result in people seeing me in such a way that I'm like running from something and theoretically I am running from something that I'm not aware of. But this is not it specifically. Like it's not the enoughness piece. So i'm just noticing like, oh, like this is sort of a, another like thought loop as I'm talking. This is the thought that's coming up that I feel for some reason compelled to share out loud. Hopefully to be seen accurately. Okay, now I'm gonna move on 'cause I am really fucking talking about that question. Question four, what am I scared will happen if I slow down for real? Well, here's what I'll say. Business wise, always the thing that I'm a little bit concerned, scared, fearful of happening is. And let me modify the question a little bit. It's not if I slow down for real, it's the more that I disconnect. So it always feels a little bit like attachment based rather than like speed based, you know, feels attachment. Like if I disconnect or like step back in the way that I'm intending, I'm afraid shit's gonna fall apart. That's what I'm afraid of, not because of my team, because I, again, like it has nothing to do with them. But I'm afraid if I'm not connected, then there will be things that I don't see. There will be feelings that I'm not aware of. There will be things that happen that I'm not tuned into. And then I can't say, oh fuck, we need to adjust because that thing's gonna happen in the future. And then things start to like go sideways and then they, they shift more and more slowly over time, degree by degree. And ultimately we are facing an entirely different direction, not rowing the same way, not working towards the same goal and slash or working towards something that isn't actually what the intended vision was in the first place. No big deal. Right? Totally fine. So I think that's probably what I'm scared of happening. And I think that as I try to work myself outta my group, like as I try to sort of engage less and engage in more intentional and like again, visionary oriented ways, I feel like that is constantly the thing that I'm seeking to , hmm, account for. Sort of like when you're doing data analysis, you're already assuming some level of error, but you're still trying to account for it as you go. That's what I'm trying to account for. Like how do I do this and make sure that that doesn't happen. And so I can't do like a quick withdraw one. I personally couldn't do that. Two, I can't do that because every time I make a move to withdraw, I have to, I personally have to, I feel obligated, I feel compelled. It feels really important to me to do a couple of fucking laps and figure out, okay, where like we pulled this, we pulled this back a little bit, we pulled this thing out, now let's run around and see what screws fell out or see what board we need to shore up or see what thing is starting to happen that I wasn't really aware of that was going to happen. And how do we tend to that? And like that should fix that. Okay, cool. Now let me do another couple laps for confidence. Like, okay, this is good. All right, cool. And then I take another step back and sort of I pull this out again and now we're gonna see what happens. So it feels like a really. Not one step forward, two steps back. It doesn't feel like that. It feels like just slow and methodical, like as I'm disengaging and distancing and like pulling myself, extricating myself. I'm trying to do it slowly and I'm trying to do it with intention and I'm trying to make sure that shit will stay the way that I'm visioning it, even without me remaining at the level of engagement that I historically have been. Okay, two questions left. Question number five, if my team's thriving, but I'm not, what system, internal or external needs attention? Man, if this is not a really relevant question for right now . This might be a non-answer, but you know, what's coming up for me is the thing I dread the most, the season of winter. Ugh. I hate it. I hate it so much. I don't mean actual winter. Sure. Actual winter. Yes. But no, that's not even true. 'cause I like when it gets cold. I love fall and I actually like when it's cold, I'm about over it in February. But that's a side note. I mean like internal winter and like the concept of dormancy and nothing growing and it makes me feel a little bit sick, honestly . And even, you know, more than sick, I feel a deep sense of combined grief and frantic urgency. I almost think of it as like a sort of a feral dog in the woods, you know, this little like, crazy looking terrier, like rat terrier, you know, Jack Russell or something , wild hair, and intense eyes and like sprinting around and scoping things out. And there's something about dormancy that feels akin to death. I know that it's not, of course, logically I know that it's not, but my body doesn't care. Like my body feels like going into dormancy means it goes there forever. And as a random side note, this just dawned on me, it felt the same way with each of my pregnancies. Every time I was pregnant, for the ones that went full term, I had one miscarriage, but every time I was pregnant. I remember feeling like, oh my God, this is my life. This is my fucking life. I'm just, I'm gonna be pregnant forever. It's never gonna end like, this is it. Ooh, you know, this is it. Ugh. Like, then I would just feel like, oh my God, this is awful. Also, I just, I didn't, I'm not one of those people that loves being pregnant, and maybe that's partially why, also feeling like a little alien inhabit my body. But it was the sense that it was lasting forever. Stepping into dormancy, but also not knowing like, when is it gonna end? Oh my God. Just fucking dread man. Grief, dread, franticness, like all of it combined. And I don't know why that's coming up to this question, but that's immediately what I'm thinking of is like dormancy, and maybe if I, if I'm looking at this question, if my team's thriving, but I'm not, what system, internal or external needs attention? Maybe it's coming up because if my team is thriving and I'm not, that might imply that I have done a bunch of work, let's say, to get them to a state of thriving and them thriving it means that I start to step back. And I think that that's starting to like step back and bear witness is the start of my fall. It's like my seasons happen differently than theirs. And so I think right now as I'm answering that is a thing that I'm sort of grappling with and like questioning and wondering about is they're thriving. So I potentially have done a bunch of like, prep and work to get it to a place where they're thriving and doing incredible. And I'm like, you know, falling back, literally falling, falling back. Like my leaves are starting to drop and I'm, I'm starting to like, like shut down or something. Go into dormancy, eh. So if I think of this more logistically though, let's also look at it logistically. If I'm not what system, internal or external needs attention, I mean my mind goes to role alignment. Like I would probably start to wonder what are the things that I'm doing that are either taking up a lot of my time and I can slash should be spending it elsewhere or are things that I really don't like doing but haven't been able to externalize and hand off. So even right now I'm thinking my team is overall thriving, like they're doing incredible. And I am in the state where I am externalizing a bunch of processes that have lived in my head. I'm doing it so that I can hand them over because these things that have been living in my head and that I've been responsible for doing are taking up too much time. Like they're taking up time that I don't want them to take up. And so I think if you reach that place or when I'm in that place, those are maybe the two sort of questions I'm asking myself or maybe I'm like thinking about that matrix where you're wondering what time is this taking and what level of excitement do I have about it? Sort of like skill versus joy I think is the, the cross-reference or the axes? One skill. One, joy. So yeah, I think specifically the system is gonna vary based on whatever is happening. Like right now, I'm externalizing my payroll system, like the process and figuring out where things live and how to do this in such a way that I can remove myself from it. But that's just right now, like when that's done, it will likely be something else. And in the past it has been other things. So yeah, I feel like I'm like being really heavy. And I don't mean to be, I think it's just the state of where I am right now. And also, I love this shit. Like I like grappling with this. I. Sort of feel, I, it sounds weird to say invigorated by like feeling the heavy things, but I think there's something about the grief and sort of, you know, tuning into franticness and urgency and like feeling and sort of holding space for the stuff to live inside of me that allows me to healthily distance myself from it. Like still feel it. Of course. 'cause it's mine and it lives inside of me and I don't need it to consume me. Like, I don't need the thing to be all consuming and sort of all encompassing. Like it just is a thing that exists at the same time as my whole life is existing. I'm literally living out my whole life. So. I don't mean for this to be hella dark. I'm sorry if you're listening and you're like, fucking hell Tara. Like, go talk to somebody. Yeah, maybe, but I like feel fine. Even though there's still all of this shit still happening, it's, I feel okay that it's all happening. Maybe again. 'cause I, I like emotions. I like the full gamut of emotions. I feel comfortable with all of them. Okay. Let's move on to our sixth and final question. What would healing from leadership fatigue actually look like for me? Oh my gosh, that's a good question. What would healing from leadership fatigue actually look like for me? Hmm. I think it might look like a month off, but I say that I'm not even sure that that's it. Maybe it looks like having space and time to almost exclusively focus on what I feel like focusing on in any given moment, whether that's practice or business related, or whether that's practicing French or teaching myself how to crochet or sitting outside trying to make friends with a local crow. I think that that's what it would look like for me. It would feel like ultimate freedom to sort of decide how my time gets spent and in what capacity. Like again, whether it's focused on work or just doing something that feels like I'm doing it 'cause I wanna do it. I'll say too, I think the constant balance is I love being part of something larger than me. I like , again, visioning and like building something out and helping it evolve and like get better and expand and grow and, you know, being a, a part of that and saying like, Ooh, I think we could do this or should do this, or let's try this. And so I don't think healing from leadership fatigue for me is removing myself entirely from leadership because that's not it. Like, I like to be a part of a bigger thing. I think it's removing myself more from the percentage of time that I'm needed to be engaged, doing specific things that I may or may not want to do in the moment. I think that's what it is. And like I said, so the flip side of that, you know, the other side of that coin is if 60% of my time is whatever the fuck I want it to be. Or let's say 75, then I might spend 5% of that learning French. I might spend 10% of that volunteering. I might spend 15% of that doing a household project. Like it's, it's like that time is just whatever I want it to be. But I also know that I would want a percentage of that time dedicated still to business stuff, to like helping grow and like conceptualizing new things and visioning beyond what is currently in place. You know, I would still want to do that. So I don't think removing myself entirely would be healing. It would be I think unfulfilling, I think I, it would be unfulfilling and for sure unsettling and ultimately not something that like resonates with me, at least at this point in time. So, whoa. Okay. That was six questions and I think they felt, I don't wanna say weightier, I think I'm wary of my responses feeling heavy for you as a listener. So if that is the case. Take a deep breath and blow that shit out your mouth. And if you relate to what I'm going through, know that you are in good company. So let's do one scenario and then we will wrap things up. Okay. Scenario one, you have spent months creating a supportive, values driven culture. Fuck, I would say years. You've spent years, let's say, or months, but years too. Creating a supportive, values driven culture, and your team is finally functioning beautifully. Yeah. Sorry, let's just back up. This is gonna take, this does not take months, this takes years. So you've spent years creating a supportive, values driven culture, and your team is finally functioning beautifully, but you are privately resentful. Ooh. Not because of them, but because you don't have anything left to give. The thought of another team meeting makes your chest feel tight. You are proud but empty. You keep asking yourself if this is what arriving was supposed to feel like. That's a very good scenario. Let me think. If I was working with you, what would I start with? Well, first and foremost, I think about the resentment piece. I think probably 'cause a lot of my life I spent doing things I didn't really want to do like it. It was just constantly othering, you know, putting others first and their needs first. And I mean, my family was absolutely enmeshed. So you, if anybody knows anything about that, you understand that boundaries are really porous, you know, really diffuse. So my sense of like I, my sense of boundaries and having a boundary and sort of having my own like needs and wants, et cetera, was really not clear. I mean, didn't exist. Once I started dating my now husband, I started to get a sense of my boundaries and I remember we would, I promise, I'm gonna get to the scenario, this all feels related for me, but whenever we first started dating and like well into a state and, you know, a couple years in. We were living together, but we weren't married yet. And he would ask me to go for a walk if I wanted to go for a walk, you know, with him. And he was taking the dogs. And I would almost always say yes. And then we would walk, and then we would get into a fight. And then I would be angry. Like I would just be on this walk and we'd be walking on a hill, not uphill, but like sort of on a slant. I hated the way my ankles felt. I hated walking on a slant, or it might be snowing. I hated trudging through the snow. I just fucking hated it. And we always would fight. I remember feeling fucking resentful. I was angry and resentful and felt like I had to go on this fucking walk with him. And at some point it sort of. Like change, like, I don't know. I'm sure that he probably just said, just don't go with me. Or I've said enough times. Like, I don't, I wanna be done walking. And he would say, why did you come with me? You know? And it helped me to eventually realize that I needed to actually think about if I wanted to go on a walk with him or not. Because I was saying yes out of what felt like obligation. That had nothing to do with him. Honestly, he didn't give a fuck if I was there or not. I'm sure he wanted me there, but like he didn't care if I said no or not. And ultimately because that obligation and going, I felt resentful. I did not know that I could say no. And so I had to start by saying like. Let me just think about it for a few minutes. Like, I just need to think about it if I wanna go or not. Are we gonna go where there's a hill? How long are you gonna go for? I would like ask these questions and I'd wanna know some of the details so I could make a decision and I would check, like, are are your feelings gonna be hurt if I don't go? Like, are you gonna care if I go or not? Are you feelings gonna be hurt? He would say no. Like, no, I don't care. Go or don't go. It took me forever to realize that I just needed to say no. Like I, I needed to tell him no when I didn't wanna go, and so I started and I felt less resentful. And I think given that, and then of course the growth throughout our adult lives together and of my therapy that I've done and all, all of the stuff, not only learning how to be therapists, but also doing my own. Of course, it just really. It became obvious to me that resentment is such a reflection of not holding internal boundaries in place. And so even this line in here, you know you're privately resentful not because of them, but because you don't have anything left to give, not to put more on this person, but you don't have anything left to give. Because you gave it all up. You gave it all up. I was saying yes when I didn't want to say yes, and I had to learn that I could say no and that I didn't want to do something, period. You know, it's sort of like understanding that I actually have needs and wants and feelings and what? Like they can come first. Huh? Like that that had to take place. It sounds so, so silly. You know, to think about now, like being in that place compared to now. I don't care. I'll just say I don't care about saying no know, but I think that would be my starting place with this person. If I was talking with them, I would say maybe what currently are you doing that you don't really want to be doing? But also what have you been doing that you haven't wanted to be doing? And also after we make these lists, what are the things that you'd don't actually have to be doing? Like are there things here that you could just give up? If the person says, well, I don't know, my team's gonna react and I could give this up, but then blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, it's like there's always some sort of rationale, I think, because it's such an emotionally laden process to go through, to start to have a boundary or have a limit that's beyond somebody else saying, this is the limit for you. Like, you get to set your own and define what that is. That is an emotionally heavy process. If it's new for you, for people who are more like, you know, uh, what's the word I'm looking for? Comfortable with saying no or didn't grow up in enmeshed households, or maybe tend towards avoidance from an attachment perspective. You know, I think that those boundaries are very easy. For people who did not grow up in that lifestyle or with that sort of, uh, emotionality or thought process or mentality or whatever, boundaries are very difficult. And so my point is this might be emotionally laden, and if it is, that doesn't mean that it still can't take place. But I think the first step in all of it is just identifying what are the things that you did that you didn't really wanna do? Or even if you list out all the shit that you're doing, and then rate it on a one to 10 scale for each item, what are the items you feel the most resentful about? And then start there. And then maybe from the one you feel the most resentful about, you start to reflect on like, what is it about this that I feel shitty about? What did I do that I didn't want to? What expectation did I hold for myself that maybe I could have loosened up if I got rid of this? How might I feel? Do I feel obligated to do this? Or do I actually want to do this? Like, there's a whole series of questions people can ask themselves in those, you know, moments whenever you're thinking about, well, I feel resentful here. There's a whole series of questions you could reflect on and ask yourself to try to figure out what is it that I need to do? And you keep asking yourself if this is what arriving end quote was supposed to feel like. No. Feeling proud but empty. No, I don't think that's what arriving is supposed to feel like. Even for me right now, sort of this level of exhaustion that I feel, I know this isn't arriving, this isn't the end of the road. This is the cycle, the season, the what? The, however, this isn't it though. Like obviously this isn't it. And I mean, you've arrived somewhere, you just don't like the destination. And so I think being clear on what happened and how I got here can be helpful then for deciding, okay, what do I wanna do differently and where do I want to go? One final thought here. This is also where I would lean into my leadership team. If you have one, lean into them. If you don't have one, maybe consider bringing on a leadership team member, someone to bear some of the weight of the group with you. Obviously not the financial liability and all that, but sort of the structure itself. Like you can do this with people around you. It doesn't just have to be you going at it alone. And so I think I would probably be having this conversation with my leadership team and maybe they have insight, maybe they have. Supportive feedback. Maybe they just give you some validation. Maybe they just say, yeah, you've been carrying a lot and for too long, maybe they are just there for you. And the act of sharing is helpful in and of itself, and that's it. But I do think there's something to say for having a person or people around you who you can really talk to about this sort of thing that are in the thick of it with you or you know, conversely it could be other group practice owners who are going through something similar or like in a similar space or who have been in a similar space. So. I think that's it. Actually, I think I'm done for the day. If this resonated with you, even if it was a little bit heavier than normal. Make sure you subscribe because you will stay up on all the episode releases and you'll get more of the same. You'll get more exploration and riffs on scenarios and you will help people who need this message stumble across it. And other than that, I just wanna say thank you of course, for tuning in with me. Y'all know I really highly value time and I really appreciate you spending some with me. And on that note, I will see you on the next episode. Thanks, bye.