Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Mom makes boyfriend special dinner and romance after they allegedly brutalize, kill & dismember her 10-year-old girl together

Transcript

Mom makes boyfriend special dinner and romance after they allegedly brutalize, kill & dismember her 10-year-old girl together · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:06
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius x M Triumph
0:09
Speaker 1: Channel one thirty two. Victoria was killed on August four,
0:14
Speaker 1: right around her tenth birthday. The whole thing is beyond
0:17
Speaker 1: anyone's conception that this could happen, especially to a little
0:20
Speaker 1: ten year old child. According to her autopsy, after she
0:23
Speaker 1: was strangled and killed, Victoria was then stabbed and dismembered.
0:27
Speaker 1: The medical examiner wrote, some of her vital organs were
0:29
Speaker 1: found in a plastic bag. This is horrible, but it
0:32
Speaker 1: appears that she died from strangulation. According to the medical
0:36
Speaker 1: examiner's report, sometime before she was killed, the ten year
0:39
Speaker 1: old suffered abuse and contracted a sexually transmitted disease. There
0:43
Speaker 1: was evidence of sexual abuse, both in terms of rectal trauma.
0:46
Speaker 1: Her mother, Michelle Martin's, is now charged with Victoria's death.
0:49
Speaker 1: Martin's boyfriend, Fabian Gondalas is also charged with killing the child.
0:53
Speaker 1: His cousin, Jessica Kelly, is the third suspect in this case.
0:57
Speaker 1: It was a hot August day when in the body
1:01
Speaker 1: of a ten year old little girl, Victoria Martin's, was
1:06
Speaker 1: found in an apartment building. What happened, What we know
1:12
Speaker 1: is that her body, this ten year old little girl
1:20
Speaker 1: was wrapped in a blanket in this apartment, and we
1:27
Speaker 1: know that she was partially dismembered. What happened? What led
1:36
Speaker 1: up to a ten year old little girls dismemberment, her death,
1:43
Speaker 1: her body being disposed of? I Nancy Grace, this is
1:48
Speaker 1: crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. I want
1:52
Speaker 1: to go straight out to John Day, lawyer, every now
1:57
Speaker 1: lawyer in the Mexico jurisdiction. John, how did you get
2:02
Speaker 1: involved in this investigation in case? Nancy, I am a
2:07
Speaker 1: former prosecutor and a criminal defense attorney, and I also
2:12
Speaker 1: serve as the on air legal analysts for the local
2:15
Speaker 1: ABC station in Albuquerque, KOAT, and we've been following this
2:20
Speaker 1: in great detail because obviously it's it's a horrifying crime.
2:25
Speaker 1: Crime investigators and lawyers and people at the courthouse who
2:29
Speaker 1: have seen horrifying crimes over the years to say this
2:32
Speaker 1: is the worst that they've ever seen. You know, John Day, again,
2:35
Speaker 1: thank you for being with us, along with Joe Scott Morgan, Dr.
2:38
Speaker 1: Brian Russell from Investigation Discovery and Crime Online investigative reporter
2:44
Speaker 1: Ellen Coilauren, John, I want to go to the discovery
2:49
Speaker 1: of her body. That is where all murder investigations start.
2:56
Speaker 1: Tell me the conditions of that discovery. So I've I've
3:01
Speaker 1: talked to people who have seen the lapel video, the
3:04
Speaker 1: police officers lapel video. And you show him coming up
3:09
Speaker 1: the stairs to this apartment in Albuquerque, New Mexico, and
3:12
Speaker 1: you see him going into this this disheveled apartment, and
3:16
Speaker 1: you see him going into a bathroom. And apparently what
3:19
Speaker 1: you see on that lapel video is the thing that
3:23
Speaker 1: horrifies people the most. It's this little girl who had
3:26
Speaker 1: just turned ten the day before. Um, she's in a
3:30
Speaker 1: bathtub and her body is on fire, clearly, clearly, Joseph
3:35
Speaker 1: Scott Morgan, forensics expert, death investigator. A haphazard attempt to
3:42
Speaker 1: hide the evidence. First of all, we typically see bodies
3:47
Speaker 1: placed in bathtubs. That is an amateur's measure to control evidence.
3:54
Speaker 1: So blood fluid, whatever evidence it may be related to
4:01
Speaker 1: the murder are contained in the bathtub, not soaked into
4:05
Speaker 1: carpet or rug fiber, not on the walls, and perhaps
4:09
Speaker 1: mistakenly believe that they can just wash it all down
4:13
Speaker 1: the drain. Joe Scott, are you surprised, No, No, I'm not.
4:17
Speaker 1: Nancy and this sounds like something that was not very
4:22
Speaker 1: well planned out. Um. And even in their attempts to
4:27
Speaker 1: uh maybe destroy evidence, um, they create more evidence along
4:32
Speaker 1: the continuum that we can follow. It just makes it
4:34
Speaker 1: a little bit more difficult to follow. But no, this
4:37
Speaker 1: kind of random haphazardnus that goes into this, Uh, it's
4:42
Speaker 1: it's not it's not surprising at all. They didn't take
4:45
Speaker 1: their time with this too, dispose of this, um, the
4:49
Speaker 1: sweet little girl's body, uh in a way that's more methodical.
4:53
Speaker 1: They just did it right there, Uh, in this filthy apartment.
4:57
Speaker 1: We're talking about a two year old little girl, a
5:00
Speaker 1: ten year old, beautiful girl. That's the age of my twins, John,
5:06
Speaker 1: David and Lucy right now. And at that point in life,
5:10
Speaker 1: I mean I did they still believe Santa Claus visits.
5:15
Speaker 1: They still slip their tooth under their pillow at night.
5:22
Speaker 1: I mean, they're scrubbed in sunshine. Their whole life is
5:26
Speaker 1: in front of them. They still believe good things can
5:30
Speaker 1: happen to them. To John Day, a veteran New Mexico lawyer, John,
5:36
Speaker 1: what do we know about Victoria? She just turned in?
5:40
Speaker 1: I know that well, the photos of this girl are
5:44
Speaker 1: I mean, it's heartbreaking to see them now because I mean,
5:47
Speaker 1: she is just was just the cutest, most adorable thing,
5:53
Speaker 1: and you're trying to figure out how she's how she
5:56
Speaker 1: looks that happy in these photos when clearly she's existing
5:59
Speaker 1: in this world of darkness. I mean, the stories about
6:03
Speaker 1: her from school were that she was engaged, she was sweet,
6:08
Speaker 1: she was played with other kids. There were no outward
6:13
Speaker 1: signs apparently of anything. And of course that's because kids
6:17
Speaker 1: are so good at trying to live a normal life
6:21
Speaker 1: when their home life it's obviously a living hell. But
6:26
Speaker 1: she was outwardly just the sweetest thing to justice got
6:31
Speaker 1: Morgan death investigator. We're listening to John Day on New Mexico.
6:36
Speaker 1: Lawyer described what was seen on the little pell cam
6:39
Speaker 1: like a shoulder cam on on a cop and that
6:43
Speaker 1: was called to this apartment. What should they be looking
6:47
Speaker 1: for at the crime scene? This body has been found
6:51
Speaker 1: and still no justice. I'm talking about a ten year
6:55
Speaker 1: old little girl, Victoria just got. What should they be
6:58
Speaker 1: looking at at the scene, Well, they're gonna be looking,
7:02
Speaker 1: uh for things that are that are very very fragile.
7:05
Speaker 1: When when I instruct my students in the way I
7:07
Speaker 1: conducted my practice, I assume that everywhere that I went
7:11
Speaker 1: and a crime scene was like walking through a minefield,
7:14
Speaker 1: if you will, Nancy, you assume that everything has value,
7:18
Speaker 1: that everything is dangerous. So they're gonna be looking even
7:23
Speaker 1: for things like uh blood evidence uh uh any kind
7:28
Speaker 1: of other body fluids that are there, hair and fiber. Also,
7:32
Speaker 1: we're talking about a case where uh, this child was
7:36
Speaker 1: placed in a bathtub. We're gonna be looking for things
7:40
Speaker 1: like accelerants. Uh in here, how did they initiate this fire? Uh?
7:44
Speaker 1: Fire has to have uh, it's it's uh, it's a
7:48
Speaker 1: continuous Uh. It has to have a fuel source, it
7:52
Speaker 1: has to have an initiator, all those sorts of things.
7:55
Speaker 1: So there's a myriad of evidence that's coming out, not
7:58
Speaker 1: to mention any kind of trauma that has been inflicted
8:01
Speaker 1: on the body. There will be evidence of things like
8:03
Speaker 1: that like blood spatter, any kind of tools that were
8:06
Speaker 1: used relative to the body. Um. So there's a myriad
8:11
Speaker 1: of things and the police have to be very very
8:14
Speaker 1: careful in this case. I want to hear you analyze
8:16
Speaker 1: what you think they were looking for immediately at the
8:20
Speaker 1: crime sat Joe Scott, My thought is that they're going
8:23
Speaker 1: to be uh under under the idea that that uh,
8:29
Speaker 1: there could possibly be DNA evidence present uh in this
8:34
Speaker 1: in this particular case. UH. Let's let's keep in mind, Nancy,
8:38
Speaker 1: that you've got a ten year old girl, UM, that
8:42
Speaker 1: someone is attempting to destroy uh, the body of of
8:47
Speaker 1: this child. UM, and we have to as investigators think, well,
8:52
Speaker 1: why would you want to do this? Why you know
8:54
Speaker 1: you've already killed her, Why would you want to destroy
8:58
Speaker 1: the body in total? Um. The idea here is that
9:01
Speaker 1: there are things on this body that maybe cannot be
9:04
Speaker 1: seen with the naked eye, UM, that are going to
9:07
Speaker 1: be completely wiped away. We've got three principles that are
9:12
Speaker 1: involved in this case. So there's going to be biological
9:15
Speaker 1: tie backs to this particular case, generally in the form
9:18
Speaker 1: of DNA evidence. So back to you, John Day, new
9:22
Speaker 1: Mexico lawyer joining me in addition to Dr. Brian Russell
9:26
Speaker 1: and Ellen Kilaurin from Crime online dot Com. John Day,
9:32
Speaker 1: We've got the shoulder video, UM, the shoulder cam of
9:36
Speaker 1: the cops going in. What led them there? Why did
9:41
Speaker 1: they decide to go to that apartment? That day? The
9:45
Speaker 1: police get a nine one one call of a of
9:47
Speaker 1: a disturbance like a domestic disturbance from from neighbors at
9:51
Speaker 1: the apartment, and they show up thinking that they're probably
9:55
Speaker 1: responding to a run of the mill domestic call, when
9:59
Speaker 1: they begin to notice things that for example, there seems
10:03
Speaker 1: to be some kind of fire taking place inside the apartment,
10:07
Speaker 1: and what the police also learned later is that one
10:12
Speaker 1: of the three people in the apartment, one of the women,
10:16
Speaker 1: has jumped out the back off of back balcony as
10:21
Speaker 1: the police are showing up um and injures herself as
10:25
Speaker 1: she's doing it. But they don't know. They don't have
10:27
Speaker 1: any clue. They don't get a report of a of
10:31
Speaker 1: an assault on a child. They don't get any report
10:33
Speaker 1: other than a neighbor report of some kind of disturbance
10:37
Speaker 1: had she been having problems at school. Let me go
10:40
Speaker 1: to Ellen Kilauren with crime online dot Com. Ellen, lead
10:45
Speaker 1: me up to the moment where this child's body, a
10:49
Speaker 1: ten year old little girl is found on fire, dead
10:54
Speaker 1: and on fire in an apartment bathtub. As we've discussed,
11:00
Speaker 1: all science point to an outwardly very sweet, very loving,
11:04
Speaker 1: very happy, extremely trusting child. In the course of the investigation,
11:10
Speaker 1: we've learned that she had actually written a note to
11:13
Speaker 1: one of the people who was considered a suspect in
11:16
Speaker 1: her murder, saying that she liked having him around, and
11:18
Speaker 1: she and he made her laugh, and and she and
11:21
Speaker 1: she enjoyed as the company. She was just an incredibly trusting, happy, happy,
11:27
Speaker 1: loving child. Dr Brian Russell joining US lawyer, psychologist, host
11:32
Speaker 1: of investigation Discoveries Hit Fatal Vows series. Dr Brian, thank
11:37
Speaker 1: you so much for being with us. I want to
11:39
Speaker 1: talk about the mind of a ten year old child.
11:44
Speaker 1: I mean, when I was ten years old, Um, I
11:47
Speaker 1: didn't know where babies came from. Uh, let's see, we
11:51
Speaker 1: only got to watch Doris Day, a Doris Day program,
11:55
Speaker 1: and um what else do I think Hogan's Heroes was on.
12:00
Speaker 1: I would have to snake dark shadows, okay, when I
12:03
Speaker 1: would get home from school before my parents got there.
12:05
Speaker 1: So I was definitely afraid of vampires. Was convinced they existed.
12:09
Speaker 1: But other than that, I mean, you know nothing of
12:12
Speaker 1: the world, nothing at all. And for a ten year
12:15
Speaker 1: old little girl to end up dismembered and on fire
12:21
Speaker 1: in the bath bathtub of this apartment, I think this
12:25
Speaker 1: child had no idea of the world around her. Yeah. Nancy,
12:29
Speaker 1: one of the law enforcement officers involved in this case
12:32
Speaker 1: commented that it was the most gruesome, active evil he
12:35
Speaker 1: had ever seen. And that's really about the only way
12:38
Speaker 1: you can describe it. And in light of that, it
12:40
Speaker 1: really is a fascinating, uh and horrific illustration of a
12:46
Speaker 1: couple of things. One is the resiliency of children. It's
12:51
Speaker 1: amazing that immersed as she was in what had to
12:56
Speaker 1: have been you know, certainly this event was probably not
13:02
Speaker 1: the first horrific thing to which this child had been witnessed.
13:07
Speaker 1: And yet by all accounts at school, she was a
13:11
Speaker 1: lovely kid that engaged, active, trying to do well in school,
13:16
Speaker 1: trying to be a good student, a good friend. And
13:20
Speaker 1: and it really shows you how what a an evil,
13:27
Speaker 1: horrific betrayal of a child's innocence it is to immerse
13:32
Speaker 1: her in the kind of world in which this girl
13:35
Speaker 1: was immersed at home, because what you can see here
13:39
Speaker 1: is she probably really didn't have any idea of how
13:44
Speaker 1: awful her situation was. It's it's like, you know, when
13:47
Speaker 1: you're immersed in something, uh, you don't know any different,
13:52
Speaker 1: and and it's just the the innocence lost, uh, you know,
13:56
Speaker 1: and and the it really makes you stop and think
13:59
Speaker 1: as you have and as I am right now. You
14:02
Speaker 1: know we had things in our childhood. I'm sure that
14:05
Speaker 1: we complained about things we wanted that we didn't get.
14:09
Speaker 1: We thought our parents were uh, you know, being depriving
14:13
Speaker 1: us of things at times, but they provided us with
14:17
Speaker 1: that security that we didn't even realize we had at
14:21
Speaker 1: the time. I want to pause and thank our partner
14:25
Speaker 1: that makes our program possible today as we investigate the
14:30
Speaker 1: horrific death of a ten year old little girl and
14:34
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15:44
Speaker 1: The death of a ten year old little girls shot
15:46
Speaker 1: the community and then the world. Joseph Scott Morgan with me,
15:51
Speaker 1: death investigator and forensics and forensics expert at Jacksonville State University.
15:57
Speaker 1: Joe Scott again, thank you for being with us. I
15:59
Speaker 1: want to talk about the actual findings, the findings as
16:03
Speaker 1: to cause of death. That's where you start. You start
16:08
Speaker 1: with what the body reveals, and that's why it's so
16:11
Speaker 1: important critical that the medical examiner take their time and
16:16
Speaker 1: find every clue possible left on the body. What did
16:20
Speaker 1: we learn just from this child's body burning in the bathtub,
16:25
Speaker 1: just from the child's body having been burned. Nancy and
16:29
Speaker 1: I was actually impressed that they were able to to
16:33
Speaker 1: come up with with this much information, and uh there's
16:36
Speaker 1: myriad of it. Uh. She was apparently uh strangled, um
16:43
Speaker 1: and beaten. And in addition to that, the medical examiner
16:49
Speaker 1: determined that she was and this is very key, she
16:52
Speaker 1: was in fact sexually assaulted. And we get an indication
16:57
Speaker 1: of that that this is not just something that he
17:00
Speaker 1: owned as a result of of um some type of
17:03
Speaker 1: chemical test or DNA test or something like that, that
17:06
Speaker 1: there's actual, uh physical evidence of this. And with a
17:10
Speaker 1: ten year old girl, you one might expect to see
17:14
Speaker 1: that as well. So it really paints a rather horrific
17:19
Speaker 1: final moments in this, uh, this girl's life. Tell me
17:24
Speaker 1: what you know, John Day on New Mexico Lawyer joining
17:27
Speaker 1: us with the story of Victoria Martin about this apartment
17:30
Speaker 1: complex where she was found, Can you describe it for me?
17:34
Speaker 1: It's um, it's pretty nondescript, it's pretty running the mill
17:37
Speaker 1: for for Albuquerque, New Mexico. It's um. It's you know,
17:42
Speaker 1: it's a working class um. The crime rate there is
17:47
Speaker 1: is relatively high. I mean, you know, there's a reason
17:49
Speaker 1: that Breaking Bad was set in Albuquerque, unfortunately, a TV
17:54
Speaker 1: series about the the mess dealers, and that's that's certainly
17:57
Speaker 1: the factor you know, John, every metropolis, every big city
18:03
Speaker 1: has crime, bad crime areas. You know, from well, d
18:08
Speaker 1: C is horrible, but from Atlanta to New York where
18:12
Speaker 1: they claimed the crime is down to San Francisco. Every
18:17
Speaker 1: l A, of course has a crime high crime area.
18:23
Speaker 1: So I'm trying to get my mind around. You said
18:25
Speaker 1: it was a working class apartment complex. What more can
18:29
Speaker 1: you tell me? It's it's just, you know, it's the
18:32
Speaker 1: typical New Mexico stucco buildings with metal railings, and um,
18:38
Speaker 1: you know, it's a it's full of the neighborhood's full
18:40
Speaker 1: of plenty of good people, obviously, because these are neighbors
18:44
Speaker 1: who we're able to call one when there was something happening.
18:47
Speaker 1: But it's you know, it's families trying to raise kids
18:50
Speaker 1: and send their kids to school. Um, it's it's just
18:54
Speaker 1: your your basic solid Southwest sun belt. Uh. A little
19:00
Speaker 1: greedy around the edges, but um, but not. But it's not.
19:04
Speaker 1: It's not sort of the scruffiest part of town either.
19:08
Speaker 1: I mean, as I said, there are plenty of if
19:10
Speaker 1: you go over there and you look around, there are
19:12
Speaker 1: plenty of toys and the and the and the in
19:15
Speaker 1: the hallways, and you know, big, big wheels and things
19:18
Speaker 1: that indicate the kids lived there and the families lived.
19:21
Speaker 1: I also know that Victoria had a little brother. What
19:24
Speaker 1: do we know about him? John Day, the brother was
19:27
Speaker 1: would go back and forth with Victoria, but mainly to
19:31
Speaker 1: his father, and who is not connected. The police are
19:36
Speaker 1: saying he's not part of this. He apparently was horrified
19:40
Speaker 1: and had no clue and nothing I've heard indicates that
19:43
Speaker 1: anyone thinks he had any knowledge ahead of this or
19:46
Speaker 1: any involvement. But the brother was apparently just as sweet,
19:49
Speaker 1: just as just as kind. I mean, people describe him
19:53
Speaker 1: as being just as as lovely a kid as his
19:57
Speaker 1: sister was. Is it true, to Ellen killorin with Crime
20:02
Speaker 1: online dot Com? Is it true that child protective services
20:07
Speaker 1: have been called not once twice, three times, four times,
20:12
Speaker 1: but five times that I know of regarding Victoria? Is
20:18
Speaker 1: that true? Ellen? It's true that there were multiple calls
20:24
Speaker 1: made to child protective services. Um One the most significant
20:29
Speaker 1: one is a report that was made that one of
20:34
Speaker 1: Victoria's mother's boyfriends had tried to kiss um little pener
20:40
Speaker 1: old Victoria. Yes, okay, wait, wait, wait right there. Dr
20:44
Speaker 1: Brian Russell, lawyer, psychologist and host of investigation, discoveries, fatal vows.
20:51
Speaker 1: Try to kiss a ten year old girl, he would
20:54
Speaker 1: have been out the door with my shoe up. Is
20:57
Speaker 1: rear end. I don't get it. A grown man you
21:00
Speaker 1: keep quote dating a guy that tried to kiss your
21:04
Speaker 1: daughter who had to be nine at the oldest when
21:07
Speaker 1: it happened. Well, what's that thinking a mommy's part, Well,
21:11
Speaker 1: it's absolutely disgusting, le narcissistic for any parent to be
21:19
Speaker 1: willing to allow something like that, even something like that,
21:24
Speaker 1: which which is on the low end of the horrific
21:27
Speaker 1: spectrum relative to everything else we know that happened to
21:30
Speaker 1: this little girl, To allow that to happen, because you're
21:34
Speaker 1: getting something as the parent out of the relationship that
21:38
Speaker 1: you're having with the perpetrator is just the It's the
21:42
Speaker 1: antithesis of mother of father of parent. And it really
21:48
Speaker 1: speaks to what you were saying and what I was
21:51
Speaker 1: saying a few minutes ago about how you know, if
21:54
Speaker 1: you grew up the way that you and I did,
21:57
Speaker 1: where you never had to worry that somebody was going
22:01
Speaker 1: to touch you inappropriately, or somebody was going to beat
22:05
Speaker 1: you or uh, you know, try to give you drugs
22:09
Speaker 1: or or something you always knew that you were safe
22:13
Speaker 1: and secure if you whether you were perfectly happy with
22:16
Speaker 1: everything you had all the time, you always knew you
22:19
Speaker 1: had basic safety and security. Uh, you know you had everything.
22:24
Speaker 1: You had so much, and and and to be thankful
22:29
Speaker 1: for that looking back, and and and the cognizant of
22:31
Speaker 1: the fact that there are kids out there wherever you
22:35
Speaker 1: are today, there are kids out there, probably not very
22:38
Speaker 1: far from you, who don't have that right now, an
22:40
Speaker 1: effort ongoing by police to obtain phone and social media
22:46
Speaker 1: records that they believe could shed light on the night
22:50
Speaker 1: this little girl was murdered, was found partially dismembered and
22:54
Speaker 1: on fire in an apartment complex apartment bathroom bathtub. What
23:01
Speaker 1: do sell phone records and social media records have to
23:06
Speaker 1: do with a child dismembered? A little girl dismembered, according
23:10
Speaker 1: to Joe Scott Morgan having been sexually assaulted as well.
23:15
Speaker 1: The phone records are those of Victoria's own mother, Michelle Martin's,
23:27
Speaker 1: and her boyfriend at the time, Fabian, and his cousin
23:33
Speaker 1: Jessica Kelly. Why would they want phone records of mommy,
23:40
Speaker 1: her boyfriend, and his female cousin for the night her
23:47
Speaker 1: child is assaulted and murder Joe Scott Morgan. How do
23:53
Speaker 1: we know a ten year old ten years old one day?
23:57
Speaker 1: How do we know she was us? Did well? Uh? Nancy,
24:03
Speaker 1: we know that she's assaulted by the physical findings. Uh
24:06
Speaker 1: that that uh that the uh m E found and
24:09
Speaker 1: that's that's the stuff that can be seen with the
24:12
Speaker 1: unaided I if you will, uh, any kind of marks
24:16
Speaker 1: on the body, the trauma that was inflicted on her. Uh.
24:21
Speaker 1: They had said that she was in fact strangled to death,
24:25
Speaker 1: which means that she would have had hemorrhage uh in
24:29
Speaker 1: the soft tissues of her neck. But then we have
24:32
Speaker 1: to expand out, um. Two things that can't be seen
24:36
Speaker 1: with the inn aided I, like DNA, and there are,
24:41
Speaker 1: according to reports, there are multiple DNA found on this
24:47
Speaker 1: child's person. And we're not talking about things that you know,
24:51
Speaker 1: in a modern vernacular that we use now, like touch DNA,
24:54
Speaker 1: which is only kind of a a partial we think
24:57
Speaker 1: about touch DNA is kind of the sloughing of skin
25:00
Speaker 1: and that falls away, that dies, and that sort of thing.
25:02
Speaker 1: We're talking about solid DNA here, uh that is generated
25:07
Speaker 1: as a result of things like body fluids. Uh. Semen saliva, blood,
25:11
Speaker 1: that sort of thing that lends itself to connectivity, and
25:15
Speaker 1: that's what forensics does. And this is ah this paints
25:18
Speaker 1: a picture of what we do at the field and
25:21
Speaker 1: in the lab, is trying to connect people to a
25:25
Speaker 1: particular crime visa v. What they leave behind in the
25:29
Speaker 1: physical sense. To John Day, renowned in Mexico lawyer, joining us,
25:35
Speaker 1: who is on the k who has been pulled into
25:38
Speaker 1: the case? John Day, why do we believe the mother,
25:43
Speaker 1: her boyfriend, and a female cousin are are having their
25:49
Speaker 1: phone records examined? Nancy, We don't know exactly right now,
25:54
Speaker 1: but I can make an educated guess as we know
25:56
Speaker 1: from uh warrants that were shoot in this case and
26:01
Speaker 1: affidavits and other things that have been filed in court.
26:04
Speaker 1: Michelle Martin's Victoria's mother told investigators that she would go
26:09
Speaker 1: and get onto her computer and go online and seek
26:13
Speaker 1: men to engage in sex acts with her children. That's
26:18
Speaker 1: what she was saying. What she would watch for her
26:21
Speaker 1: WHA what can you back it up and repeat? What
26:25
Speaker 1: we also know from pleadings in this case, affidavits, things
26:29
Speaker 1: that were filed by investigators that there were statements by
26:33
Speaker 1: Michelle Martin's the mother that she would go on to
26:36
Speaker 1: her computer and look for men. This is what she
26:41
Speaker 1: told investigators. She would find men online to engage in sex,
26:46
Speaker 1: sex acts with Victoria. And so obviously, if you're an investigator,
26:53
Speaker 1: and if you're the defense, you want to know exactly
26:55
Speaker 1: what she's talking about. And could this be part of
26:58
Speaker 1: what they're looking for the and the warrants for the
27:02
Speaker 1: cell phones and the text and so on. I think
27:04
Speaker 1: it probably is. John was the mother allegedly pimping out
27:10
Speaker 1: her daughter for money. It's not for money. That's not
27:14
Speaker 1: what she apparently told investigators. It was a statement to
27:18
Speaker 1: the effect of all I would do this, and I'd
27:20
Speaker 1: watched them engage in sex, and it was for my
27:23
Speaker 1: own pleasure. Now you can take that for what it's worth.
27:27
Speaker 1: You look at the circumstances of when she makes the statement.
27:31
Speaker 1: Is there physical evidence that the investigators have found or
27:34
Speaker 1: they're looking for that validates that, that backs that up.
27:38
Speaker 1: We don't know yet, but that's obviously someplace they have
27:40
Speaker 1: to go. Dr Russell, you're the psychologist. I've got to
27:45
Speaker 1: go to you on this. I mean, how did this
27:47
Speaker 1: child if she's endearing all this at the hands of
27:50
Speaker 1: her own mother. How did she keep up in school?
27:54
Speaker 1: I mean every photo I've looked at, she's got this
27:59
Speaker 1: beautiful mop of light brown hair, this big, huge smile
28:05
Speaker 1: on her face. To me, she looks like a very,
28:07
Speaker 1: very young Valerie Burton Alley. She's just just gorgeous with
28:13
Speaker 1: always a big smile. Dr Briant. That speaks to the
28:16
Speaker 1: resilience that we were talking about, Nancy, of kids. It's
28:20
Speaker 1: it's amazing what a kid can go through and still
28:25
Speaker 1: put on a smile. And you see it. You know,
28:28
Speaker 1: when you travel around the world to places where kids
28:31
Speaker 1: are living in horrific conditions and they don't know. It's
28:34
Speaker 1: like if you have a fish in you know, really
28:37
Speaker 1: yucky dirty water that the fish doesn't know that you
28:41
Speaker 1: know there are other fish in in clean water, and
28:44
Speaker 1: and it's sort of like that with kids in it.
28:46
Speaker 1: And it's just so heartbreaking to see a kid living
28:50
Speaker 1: in conditions like the ones in which this girl apparently
28:54
Speaker 1: was living, and and to and to still be happy. Nancy,
28:58
Speaker 1: I'll bet you this little girl loved that mother. As
29:02
Speaker 1: as awful as it sounds to even say that, I
29:06
Speaker 1: want to go to Ellen Kilaurain Investigative reporter on crime
29:10
Speaker 1: online dot com. But first let me thank our partner
29:14
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29:18
Speaker 1: Martin's possible today and it is super Beats. You know,
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30:49
Speaker 1: to Nancy's beats dot com today, Ellen colaurin Crime Online
30:54
Speaker 1: investigative reporter, you have exhaustively reviewed search warrants, I investigate reports.
31:00
Speaker 1: What have we learned? What have you been able to
31:03
Speaker 1: piece together as to what happened just pre sitting the
31:07
Speaker 1: death of this ten year old little girl. Well, one
31:11
Speaker 1: of the things that we know for absolute sures that
31:13
Speaker 1: these three adults were in the home with the girl
31:16
Speaker 1: the night that she was that she was horrified, finally killed.
31:21
Speaker 1: There is a possibility, based on what we know the
31:26
Speaker 1: police are looking at, that there may have actually been
31:31
Speaker 1: another witnessed or possibly even another person in the apartment
31:35
Speaker 1: that night. The police have obviously this is a very
31:38
Speaker 1: very active investigation, and the police are are are not
31:42
Speaker 1: revealing a lot um. They're not getting press conferences or
31:45
Speaker 1: anything at this point, but what they are doing is
31:48
Speaker 1: is clearly looking for the possibility that other people knew things.
31:54
Speaker 1: I think that speaks to your question about the phone
31:58
Speaker 1: records and the social media records. I think that that
32:00
Speaker 1: investigators believe that that the the adults and the apartment
32:05
Speaker 1: during the time of this this horrifying assault and murder
32:10
Speaker 1: may have been in contact with other people, and in fact,
32:14
Speaker 1: one of them did tell police as she was apprehended
32:18
Speaker 1: that there were more people in the apartment. On top
32:22
Speaker 1: of that, police have have obtained I think something like
32:25
Speaker 1: two hundred pieces of DNA evidence that they're combing through
32:28
Speaker 1: right now, and I imagine that that's all all leading
32:32
Speaker 1: to finding out exactly who was there and when. But
32:35
Speaker 1: as far as understanding why on earth anyone would would
32:40
Speaker 1: do this thing to a child on on her tenth birthday,
32:43
Speaker 1: when she was planning on having a birthday party just
32:46
Speaker 1: hours after she was found, is incomprehensible and we don't
32:50
Speaker 1: we don't know any any We don't have any idea
32:53
Speaker 1: what the motive could be yet that night, the night
32:57
Speaker 1: before the night that she was killed to John Day,
33:01
Speaker 1: new Mexico lawyer who is working who has been pulled
33:05
Speaker 1: into this case, John Day, what are the allegations against
33:10
Speaker 1: mom of that night that lead up to Victoria's brutal murder.
33:17
Speaker 1: The allegations are that this mom had had met online
33:21
Speaker 1: this guy, Fabian Gonzalez, and Fabian had a cousin named
33:27
Speaker 1: Jessica Kelly, who had been in and out of trouble
33:31
Speaker 1: with the law, had been had been locked up, she
33:34
Speaker 1: had a number of different convictions for different things. And
33:38
Speaker 1: what we know at this point, according to the allegations
33:41
Speaker 1: and what the investigators have found, is that the three
33:44
Speaker 1: of these these three adults were at the apartment and
33:48
Speaker 1: they were um, they had meth, and they were doing meth.
33:53
Speaker 1: And according to warrants that were filed, at one point,
33:58
Speaker 1: the three of them or some combination held Victoria down
34:02
Speaker 1: to give her meth, according to warrants, to make her relax.
34:06
Speaker 1: And the allegation is is that they did that so
34:09
Speaker 1: that the adults could rape her, rape the sweet little
34:13
Speaker 1: girl while the mother watched. And that's consistent with the
34:17
Speaker 1: things that the mother had said to the police after
34:20
Speaker 1: she was arrested, that she would go online and find
34:24
Speaker 1: people to have sex with Victoria while she watched. So
34:27
Speaker 1: what she was saying is consistent. It's it's hard to
34:30
Speaker 1: even speak those words. And you know, I've done this
34:33
Speaker 1: for twenty seven years and just reading over the warrants
34:38
Speaker 1: and speaking the words that are written down there are
34:42
Speaker 1: um emotionally difficult to Joe Scott, Morgan, death Investigator, Professor
34:47
Speaker 1: Forensics at Jacksonville State University. Joe Scott, what would meth?
34:53
Speaker 1: How would that affect? Uh this child's perception of what
34:57
Speaker 1: was happening to her? Yeah, you know, Nancy, When when
35:00
Speaker 1: I read this, I had to do a double take.
35:03
Speaker 1: Uh as uh as the counselor stated, just a moment ago, Uh,
35:08
Speaker 1: they wanted to apply meth in order to relax her. Uh.
35:13
Speaker 1: Meth is not something you would apply to someone in
35:17
Speaker 1: order to relax. And meth is not just a stimulant.
35:21
Speaker 1: It's a hyper stimulant UM and as a matter of fact,
35:24
Speaker 1: it's used to knock down or it could be used
35:28
Speaker 1: much like cocaine to knock down inhibitions UM. And so
35:33
Speaker 1: that paints a completely different story here. If you're trying
35:37
Speaker 1: to get a ten year old to be uninhibited, to
35:41
Speaker 1: not care what's going on with her, that sort of
35:44
Speaker 1: thing where they're in an elevated state, that's that's what
35:47
Speaker 1: you would be trying to achieve with meth. So I
35:50
Speaker 1: don't know where this is coming from, where they came
35:54
Speaker 1: to this conclusion, but they are way off base with this.
35:58
Speaker 1: I want to talk about recordings, secretly taped recordings, Ellen
36:04
Speaker 1: Coilaura and crime online dot Com. What can you tell me?
36:07
Speaker 1: There have been reports that indicate possibly that there was
36:13
Speaker 1: there were photos and possibly videos taken that night of
36:19
Speaker 1: what those people were doing to Victoria. We do know
36:24
Speaker 1: that her mother had in the past met men online
36:28
Speaker 1: and invited them to have interactions with her children like that,
36:34
Speaker 1: and we think, based on based on what we know
36:38
Speaker 1: about the investigation, that this is something that that part
36:41
Speaker 1: of what the mother was doing was getting off on,
36:46
Speaker 1: was actually taking photographs and possibly video of what happened.
36:49
Speaker 1: So it is possible that the horrifying things that were
36:52
Speaker 1: being done to Victoria were recorded on phone and video
36:56
Speaker 1: and possibly sent to other people. Joining me from l
37:00
Speaker 1: he was also investigating the case. Is Alan do Alan?
37:03
Speaker 1: What can you tell me about recordings that we have
37:07
Speaker 1: obtained in this case? Well, you see, if you're in
37:11
Speaker 1: jail and you make a phone call, somebody's listening in
37:15
Speaker 1: or at least recording it, and they can listen in.
37:17
Speaker 1: And that's what's been happening in this case, and there's
37:21
Speaker 1: we do have something. We can play them right now.
37:23
Speaker 1: Some of the phone recordings where the defendant is talking
37:28
Speaker 1: to her mom Ellen. The tapes we are about to
37:31
Speaker 1: play that we're secretly corded behind bars. Who to whom
37:35
Speaker 1: are we listening? We're listening to Michelle Martin's the mother
37:39
Speaker 1: of Victoria. Victoria's speaking to her own mother, Um, and
37:44
Speaker 1: she's and she's talking about, while not admitting any any
37:48
Speaker 1: guilt in the in the in the actual violence, she's
37:51
Speaker 1: talking about feeling as though she failed her daughter. And
37:54
Speaker 1: she's and she's feeling and she's feeling very sorry for herself.
37:58
Speaker 1: In other parts of the conversation, we don't know what
38:01
Speaker 1: they're talking about because they know that these these conversations
38:04
Speaker 1: are being recorded, and they're speaking in code at certain
38:09
Speaker 1: parts of it, so that the people listening and don't
38:12
Speaker 1: know what they're saying. Feeling like she failed her daughter,
38:16
Speaker 1: John Day, I mean, my head is spinning around failed
38:19
Speaker 1: her daughter. She she had a hand in her murder
38:22
Speaker 1: and her horrific, horrific sex attack. John. It's difficult to
38:28
Speaker 1: reconcile that. But you know the problem with jail house recordings,
38:32
Speaker 1: and I on the one hand, at my old prosecutor
38:35
Speaker 1: putting my old prosecutor hat on. I think a canny
38:38
Speaker 1: defense lawyer would be talking to a client in jail saying,
38:42
Speaker 1: remember everything that you say except to your lawyer, is
38:45
Speaker 1: being recorded, either by audio or video. So remember that
38:50
Speaker 1: when you're talking to people. That cuts both ways. Someone
38:53
Speaker 1: wants to get something out, that's a great way to
38:55
Speaker 1: do it, because in a high profile case, you know
38:57
Speaker 1: that every media outlet than a hundred miles is going
39:01
Speaker 1: to be trying to get those recordings. On the other hand,
39:04
Speaker 1: my defense layer hat now, I think that there are
39:06
Speaker 1: plenty of times when people forget that and they're having
39:09
Speaker 1: heartfelt conversations with someone, forgetting completely that it's being recorded.
39:14
Speaker 1: Best example, Casey Anthony a couple of years ago, those
39:17
Speaker 1: videos and audio recordings of her conversations with her family
39:22
Speaker 1: that were so damaging and so revealing. You know what,
39:25
Speaker 1: You're so right when she would scream at her mom
39:28
Speaker 1: and dad who were there every time they tried to
39:31
Speaker 1: talk to her about what happened the night Kelly went missing.
39:35
Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan, you and I have seen more child
39:38
Speaker 1: abuse in child order cases, and I even want to remember,
39:41
Speaker 1: in fact, I try actively not to remember them. The
39:46
Speaker 1: thought of this mother behind bars after she is solicited
39:51
Speaker 1: for her own enjoyment, not for money, as if that
39:53
Speaker 1: would make it any better to bring in guys to
39:56
Speaker 1: the home to molest her daughter while she sat there
39:59
Speaker 1: and watch now the daughter is dead. I mean, it's
40:04
Speaker 1: almost more than I can take in. Joe Scott. Yeah,
40:07
Speaker 1: when you when you think that you've you've reached the basement,
40:10
Speaker 1: when you've gone down as far as you possibly can,
40:13
Speaker 1: there's always another layer in there, Nancy, And uh, the
40:17
Speaker 1: depths of depravity here, uh there there, you can't plumb
40:22
Speaker 1: the depths of it. Um. And I'm amazed at uh.
40:27
Speaker 1: And I don't want to get off into the docks
40:29
Speaker 1: area here, but uh, you know the narcissism that's involved
40:33
Speaker 1: in this, uh kind of the the self involvement, and
40:37
Speaker 1: that you would even though it wasn't done for money, allegedly,
40:41
Speaker 1: the pimping out of this precious little child for your
40:45
Speaker 1: own personal gratification. Um, it's just absolutely sickening, just down
40:51
Speaker 1: to its core. As we wait for the system to
40:54
Speaker 1: move on this, as we wait for justice for ten
40:58
Speaker 1: year old Victoria Martin, right now, an argument. A legal
41:03
Speaker 1: battle ongoing about DNA, d ox uribe nucleic acid, and
41:09
Speaker 1: a technique that may be used in trial. John Day,
41:16
Speaker 1: veteran New Mexico lawyer, What is happening regarding the DNA. Well,
41:21
Speaker 1: they've got trial dates set. Each one's been each defendant's
41:24
Speaker 1: been trialed separately. They're still waiting on some DNA results.
41:28
Speaker 1: Tons of DNA samples are collected by the investigators and
41:31
Speaker 1: they need to get it analyzed. The problem is in
41:34
Speaker 1: New Mexico, the state crime lab is backed up, it's
41:37
Speaker 1: it's having issues, that's having problems, and so the Albuquerque
41:41
Speaker 1: Police Department, the District Attorney's office, has gotten permission from
41:45
Speaker 1: the court to send off to Florida for DNA analysis
41:49
Speaker 1: all a lot of these DNA samples. And they're in
41:52
Speaker 1: fact going to try to use a relatively new process
41:56
Speaker 1: that the investigators hope can elicit a lot more information
42:00
Speaker 1: in this case than previously could have been could have
42:03
Speaker 1: been gotten. Joe's got Morgan, what's the process. The process
42:07
Speaker 1: that they're talking about is called star mix Nancy, and
42:10
Speaker 1: it's a relatively new technology that was developed out of
42:14
Speaker 1: New Zealand and look DNA even for scientists many times,
42:18
Speaker 1: it's very complicated. I'm gonna try to break this down
42:20
Speaker 1: so that our listeners can understand it. Um. If you're
42:25
Speaker 1: looking for one person, that's one thing. But in this
42:28
Speaker 1: particular case where this little girl has been just brutally murdered,
42:32
Speaker 1: we've got at least three principles involved in this thing.
42:37
Speaker 1: And let's keep in mind that we've got, uh, the
42:40
Speaker 1: females who are also involved. So it's not like we're
42:42
Speaker 1: just strictly looking for for male DNA and this DNA
42:47
Speaker 1: is overlapping, all right. Uh. This new technology uses a
42:53
Speaker 1: computer program that not only looks at the biology, but
42:57
Speaker 1: it breaks it down with a mathematical model where these
43:02
Speaker 1: computations that this thing is doing are going into the quadrillions,
43:07
Speaker 1: if you will. And it's it's highly layered, highly complicated.
43:10
Speaker 1: And here's the big problem, Nancy, this thing has not
43:14
Speaker 1: met scientific rigor. It's been rejected and a lot of
43:18
Speaker 1: other courts. UM. And so I think my thought at
43:22
Speaker 1: least is is that when this comes to trial, UM,
43:28
Speaker 1: I think that this is something that the defense attorneys
43:32
Speaker 1: are going to look at really hard because in any
43:34
Speaker 1: kind scientific testing, we learned this even when We're in
43:37
Speaker 1: the eighth grade and we're basically learning how science works.
43:41
Speaker 1: We know that you have to test something and repeat
43:45
Speaker 1: that test before the science is valid. The problem with
43:49
Speaker 1: star Mix is that because it uses a computer program,
43:54
Speaker 1: it has what's referred to as a source code. That
43:57
Speaker 1: means the basic algorithm of this thing is plugged in,
44:01
Speaker 1: and it's not. It has not met scientific testing. What
44:05
Speaker 1: they're saying is blindly accept what this computer program is
44:09
Speaker 1: going to put out. We're not going to give you
44:11
Speaker 1: access to the source code, so they can't test it,
44:14
Speaker 1: and the defense is going to have a real field
44:16
Speaker 1: day with this. I think when it makes it into court,
44:19
Speaker 1: I'm just worried about that. I would not jeopardize this
44:22
Speaker 1: case um with a new technique until it has accepted
44:28
Speaker 1: universally across the US. And it may be all well
44:32
Speaker 1: and good, because John Day, you're a veteran trial lawyer.
44:37
Speaker 1: The first time I ever tried a case with DNA,
44:41
Speaker 1: they crime lay people said, well, do you want me
44:43
Speaker 1: to bring in the labs in other words, the pictures
44:48
Speaker 1: that they took under the microscope. I'm like, yes, bring everything. Okay, Well,
44:54
Speaker 1: they started putting an up in court. It looked like
44:57
Speaker 1: undeveloped film, big law, on to one after the next
45:03
Speaker 1: undeveloped film, like Oh, dear Lord in Heaven, what have
45:06
Speaker 1: I done? Well? I never did that again, So be
45:10
Speaker 1: careful what you ask for. You may surely get it.
45:13
Speaker 1: You know you ask for all that data, Fine, have
45:16
Speaker 1: at it, because once I saw that, I never, once again,
45:20
Speaker 1: for the remainder of my ten years prosecuting felonies every
45:23
Speaker 1: other week in front of juries, ever brought on the
45:26
Speaker 1: supporting DNA evidence because it doesn't make it. Can't look
45:30
Speaker 1: at it as a civilian, a non scientific person and
45:34
Speaker 1: understand it. From then on, I would have them explain
45:40
Speaker 1: and easy to understand words, if there are any how
45:44
Speaker 1: DNA works, and I would stay on them before trial,
45:48
Speaker 1: not when they're up on the witness stand, to explain
45:50
Speaker 1: it so I could understand it. I'm not a scientist,
45:54
Speaker 1: I'm a trial lawyer, and if I could understand what
45:57
Speaker 1: they were saying that, I knew the jury would understand
45:59
Speaker 1: it too. So you don't want to come in with
46:02
Speaker 1: a brand new technique nobody else is using, get a
46:06
Speaker 1: conviction and then have the thing reversed. Uh, John Day,
46:10
Speaker 1: what about the death penalty? Don't have it in New Mexico,
46:14
Speaker 1: haven't had it since two de Lord in Heaven. So
46:19
Speaker 1: you can basically murder as that many people as you
46:22
Speaker 1: want to in New Mexico and you're still gonna get
46:25
Speaker 1: You're still going to get three hots and a cop
46:27
Speaker 1: for the rest of your life, right yeah, I mean
46:30
Speaker 1: you're not going to the DP. New Mexico has. What
46:33
Speaker 1: replaced the death County was life without the possibility of
46:38
Speaker 1: Dr Brian Russell. You've seen it all as host of
46:41
Speaker 1: investigation Discoveries fatal Vows. What do you make of it?
46:44
Speaker 1: One of the things that we notice a lot on
46:46
Speaker 1: Fatal Vows is that the extreme narcissism that leads somebody
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Speaker 1: to do something so evil is what we've seen in
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Speaker 1: this case, fortunately for the rest of us, often also
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Speaker 1: leads those people to make mistakes, to think they're getting
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Speaker 1: rid of evidence they're not really getting rid of, to
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Speaker 1: leave DNA around that ultimately ties them to the crime.
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Speaker 1: And and it's because they overestimate their own ability to
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Speaker 1: get out of trouble. And so hopefully in this case,
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Speaker 1: these perpetrators have done that and will ultimately see justice.
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Speaker 1: Although you know, as it's always the case on fatal
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Speaker 1: vas It's never going to bring back this beautiful, lovely
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Speaker 1: little girl. We are waiting to see justice unfold. Nancy
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Speaker 1: Grace Crime Stories, signing off goodbye friend,