Latest / The Overland Journal Podcast / Paula and Jeremy Dear on Overlanding West Africa in an ex-Belgian Military Police Truck

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Paula and Jeremy Dear on Overlanding West Africa in an ex-Belgian Military Police Truck · The Overland Journal Podcast

0:05
Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the Overland Journal podcast. I'm your host,
0:09
Speaker 1: Ashley Jordano, and today I am joined by Paula and
0:13
Speaker 1: Jeremy Dear of the Trailing Ivy and you guys are
0:17
Speaker 1: a couple traveling the west coast of Africa. And yeah, well,
0:22
Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us today. I'm very
0:25
Speaker 1: excited to talk about your thirty thirty two year old
0:28
Speaker 1: of eco that you're driving down West Africa, and a
0:32
Speaker 1: bunch of other fun things to chat about to you.
0:35
Speaker 1: So welcome, Hi asked Hi, where are you right now?
0:44
Speaker 1: And what have you been up to for the past
0:45
Speaker 1: week or so?
0:48
Speaker 2: So we're in Lwanda in Angola, which means we've reached
0:54
Speaker 2: the point that generally is considered to be the end
0:58
Speaker 2: of West and Central Africa phase of the trip, and
1:01
Speaker 2: Goula is considered to be sort of in the middle
1:04
Speaker 2: of the two regions of western, Central and Southern so
1:08
Speaker 2: we were sort of, yeah, celebrating getting to the end
1:12
Speaker 2: of the so called difficult.
1:14
Speaker 1: Lake, right, So all the sort of more difficult border
1:19
Speaker 1: crossings are behind you, knock on wood, and you're about
1:22
Speaker 1: to cruise into like a more established overland vibe as
1:28
Speaker 1: you head into Namibia and South Africa further south. So congrats.
1:34
Speaker 3: That's right though, But we've heard from some people who've
1:38
Speaker 3: done it that they get a kind of Stockholm syndrome
1:40
Speaker 3: and withdrawal symptoms for missing the chaos and challenge of
1:46
Speaker 3: West Africa when suddenly they're confronted with campsites where you
1:50
Speaker 3: have your own private toilet or like a barbecue laid
1:53
Speaker 3: on for you and all these kind of things. So
1:56
Speaker 3: we're really looking forward to it, hoping we're going to
2:00
Speaker 3: meet some challenges as well.
2:04
Speaker 1: Absolutely, So give me an overview. You guys have been
2:07
Speaker 1: on the road for a few years at least now,
2:10
Speaker 1: I believe, and started in Europe and have been heading south.
2:14
Speaker 1: But what has that looked like for the past few
2:16
Speaker 1: years for you? I know you're taking it slow and
2:18
Speaker 1: you've gone home a few times, so yeah, what has
2:20
Speaker 1: that sort of journey looked like?
2:25
Speaker 2: Yeah, so we left the home home is Belgium. Belgium
2:29
Speaker 2: is our base, although we're from the UK. So we
2:32
Speaker 2: left Belgium in June twenty three and spent just over
2:37
Speaker 2: a year in Europe and we took that quite slowly
2:40
Speaker 2: as well. We just traveled in about four or five
2:43
Speaker 2: countries and took a very long ferry ride from Genoa
2:49
Speaker 2: and Italy to Morocco, which was about fifty four hours
2:53
Speaker 2: on the ferry, and we got to Morocco in September
2:58
Speaker 2: twenty four. So we've traveled the West Africa over two
3:03
Speaker 2: dry seasons, one eight month leg, then stop for the
3:06
Speaker 2: rainy season, and then another five months leg. So yeah,
3:11
Speaker 2: it's probably double the time that most people, not everyone,
3:14
Speaker 2: but most people try to do West Africa in one
3:17
Speaker 2: dry season and we decided to do it in two.
3:23
Speaker 1: Yeah. Let me know, I'm super curious about this why
3:27
Speaker 1: you decided to do it that way because I can
3:29
Speaker 1: see obviously there are pros and cons to both, but
3:33
Speaker 1: I am imagining that it's giving you more time to
3:38
Speaker 1: spend speaking with people, learning things, diving in and taking
3:45
Speaker 1: your time, and you're also working on the road, so
3:48
Speaker 1: that's a factor.
3:50
Speaker 4: Yeah.
3:51
Speaker 3: I mean, I think one of the things we see
3:53
Speaker 3: with people who try to do this journey so quickly
3:56
Speaker 3: is they get all the bad bits, the difficult road,
4:00
Speaker 3: it's the slow movement, the bureaucracy, the visas, they get
4:03
Speaker 3: all of that, but they don't have time to enjoy
4:07
Speaker 3: West Africa, and it's not for everybody. It can be challenging,
4:10
Speaker 3: but there's also plenty to enjoy, and we've had some
4:14
Speaker 3: really great cultural experiences, some beautiful beaches, some wonderful scenery,
4:20
Speaker 3: And I mean we're kind of privileged, we think, to
4:22
Speaker 3: have the time to be able to do it because
4:25
Speaker 3: we work while we travel, not too much, just enough
4:29
Speaker 3: to pay the bills, but that allows us to be
4:32
Speaker 3: able to spend the time. And I understand lots of
4:34
Speaker 3: people only get nine months off work or something and
4:37
Speaker 3: they have to do it in nine months, and that's fine,
4:40
Speaker 3: it's everyone does it, does it their own way. But yeah,
4:43
Speaker 3: we've enjoyed having the time to be slower on their oad.
4:48
Speaker 2: And I think like when we planned it, we we
4:51
Speaker 2: definitely felt like it was not the kind of region
4:54
Speaker 2: to rush. I think it can be quite stressful if
4:56
Speaker 2: you're on a timeline, and but we didn't even appreciate
5:02
Speaker 2: fully when we were planning it, just how much we
5:04
Speaker 2: would benefit from not rushing, just because there's a lot
5:08
Speaker 2: of bureaucracy, and as Jeremy said, sometimes the travel can
5:12
Speaker 2: be very slow. And it's the kind of just talking
5:16
Speaker 2: generally generalizing. It's the sort of region where you do
5:20
Speaker 2: need to dive a little bit in to really enjoy
5:25
Speaker 2: what it's got, and if you're just passing through, it
5:29
Speaker 2: can feel just quite chaotic and a bit difficult to
5:32
Speaker 2: know where to start. So we didn't manage it in
5:36
Speaker 2: every country. Sometimes we did have to rush, but generally
5:39
Speaker 2: we got a lot of good West African experiences, especially
5:43
Speaker 2: the culture, which is one thing that we really love
5:46
Speaker 2: about traveling.
5:49
Speaker 1: I love to know more about that. What were some
5:51
Speaker 1: of the highlights for you along the way so far?
5:55
Speaker 3: I think definitely we'd both degree Beneath as a country
5:59
Speaker 3: was the one where we had the best experiences, all
6:03
Speaker 3: the connection to vodoo religion and the ceremonies some just
6:08
Speaker 3: incredible mask dance ceremonies that we were lucky enough to
6:13
Speaker 3: be able to go to. But then also in the
6:17
Speaker 3: north of the country some of the more ancient communities
6:23
Speaker 3: and tribes that live in those areas. So the border
6:27
Speaker 3: up north between Togo and benin particular types of architecture,
6:32
Speaker 3: particular cultures, and is somewhere where you do just need
6:36
Speaker 3: to spend a bit of time being able to visit
6:40
Speaker 3: some of the villages and learn a little bit about it.
6:42
Speaker 3: But we really, really enjoyed those parts of it.
6:46
Speaker 2: And we also had quite a bit of luck in
6:48
Speaker 2: Ivory course, where we went to a big traditional mask
6:51
Speaker 2: festival but in quite a small village, and that was
6:55
Speaker 2: one of those things where if you've got time, it
6:58
Speaker 2: also enables you to have a lot bit of luck
7:00
Speaker 2: because you're hanging around. Maybe we met someone who said
7:04
Speaker 2: you should go to this, it's amazing, and we would
7:06
Speaker 2: never have just gone there or passed by.
7:09
Speaker 3: Because and I think he said it's happening in four
7:12
Speaker 3: days time, and most people would have had to have
7:15
Speaker 3: rushed off, maybe because they had a schedule, whereas we
7:19
Speaker 3: were able to say, okay, it's a lovely place, we'll
7:22
Speaker 3: stay here for a few days and then we'll go
7:24
Speaker 3: to that festival.
7:25
Speaker 2: And when we went, they said, we've never had a
7:28
Speaker 2: tourist here. And it was quite overwhelming because, like people were,
7:34
Speaker 2: it was a small village, but lots of people had
7:36
Speaker 2: come from the surrounding area, so it was quite busy,
7:38
Speaker 2: big crowds, and everyone was just all over us. Weren't
7:41
Speaker 2: they in a nice way? But it was. It was
7:44
Speaker 2: quite an intense couple of days and they insisted that
7:47
Speaker 2: we park the truck outside the chiefs, the chiefs, the mayor,
7:53
Speaker 2: the chief's house. But that was smack bang in the
7:56
Speaker 2: middle of the village, so we were like on the
7:58
Speaker 2: parade route. Yeah, just there weren't really any quiet moments
8:03
Speaker 2: at all, but it was amazing. Yeah. So yeah, we've
8:09
Speaker 2: really yeah, we've enjoyed like trying to get to know
8:12
Speaker 2: the food. Again, if you've got a bit more time,
8:14
Speaker 2: you may be worry less that you're going to get
8:17
Speaker 2: some horrible parasite or something. Not that we want a parasite,
8:21
Speaker 2: but you know, if you've got longer, you're not. You
8:24
Speaker 2: can be take risks a little bit more and think, well, okay,
8:29
Speaker 2: we'll try this street food and we'll do we'll do that,
8:32
Speaker 2: and if we get sick, then we've got time.
8:36
Speaker 1: Have there been some highlights for you in terms of
8:39
Speaker 1: street food and diving a bit deeper than that. Yeah,
8:45
Speaker 1: that's part of the culture, I.
8:47
Speaker 3: Think, Yeah, I think probably for us, the real revelations
8:50
Speaker 3: been around the use of leaves, leaves that we would
8:53
Speaker 3: throw away and we'd eat the other part of the vegetable,
8:56
Speaker 3: so cassava leaves or sweet potato leaves, and the sauces
9:01
Speaker 3: that are made using those are I mean, they range
9:05
Speaker 3: from kind of fiery, peppery hot to peanutty. But we've
9:10
Speaker 3: taken now to buying leaves at every market we can
9:12
Speaker 3: find and cooking them.
9:14
Speaker 4: Up, and yeah, really we've really enjoyed that.
9:17
Speaker 3: And I think obviously the use of ground nuts or
9:21
Speaker 3: peanuts in an awful lot of the sauces has been Yeah,
9:24
Speaker 3: we've really loved and you can buy them in every form.
9:28
Speaker 3: You buy them as like almost like a peanut paste.
9:31
Speaker 3: You can buy them as a sauce, you can buy
9:34
Speaker 3: peanuts themselves, you can buy them more roasted or yeah.
9:39
Speaker 3: But also yeah, the spiciness of the food. I think
9:42
Speaker 3: we've traveled it in Africa quite a bit before as
9:45
Speaker 3: backpackers years ago, and we always kind of remembered the
9:48
Speaker 3: food as a bit functional. You kind of it's just
9:52
Speaker 3: there to fill you up. But actually this time we've
9:54
Speaker 3: really enjoyed. It's some excellent fish that we've had as well,
9:57
Speaker 3: both river fish and seafish.
9:59
Speaker 1: Yeah, delicious. What a great way to experience all the
10:06
Speaker 1: different regions and foods, And that's awesome. I'm curious because
10:10
Speaker 1: you guys are both journalists and I look forward to
10:14
Speaker 1: your sub stack emails every month detailing all of these
10:20
Speaker 1: experiences and foods and the trials and tribulations. It's a
10:24
Speaker 1: very real look at the realities of doing this trip,
10:27
Speaker 1: pros and cons and good experiences and not as good experiences.
10:30
Speaker 1: But I'm wondering how your skills as journalists has given
10:36
Speaker 1: you the opportunity to dive a bit deeper in these
10:40
Speaker 1: regions or is it just something as travelers that you've
10:42
Speaker 1: been able to do, or is it an element.
10:44
Speaker 2: Of luck.
10:48
Speaker 4: You're the one who does it.
10:49
Speaker 2: Also, it's a combination of things. I'm sure it helps
10:53
Speaker 2: to have the eye or the the journalism of vibe
10:58
Speaker 2: when you're looking and telling stories about what you've seen.
11:03
Speaker 2: But to be completely honest, I've tried not to look
11:08
Speaker 2: at it as a journalism kind of endeavor because then
11:13
Speaker 2: you really can drive yourself crazy with you see a
11:16
Speaker 2: story twenty times a day that you could be writing
11:20
Speaker 2: for a newspaper or an outlet, and I quite consciously
11:24
Speaker 2: don't want to work that way at the moment. So, yeah,
11:27
Speaker 2: it's difficult to describe, but we're just trying to do
11:30
Speaker 2: our thing travel wise, and then it helps to have
11:35
Speaker 2: worked in the media as suppose to when you're taking
11:38
Speaker 2: photos and thinking about what you want to write. Then
11:42
Speaker 2: there is an advantage I think, and I.
11:44
Speaker 3: Think I mean your ability to be able to tell
11:46
Speaker 3: a story means that people get involved and engage with
11:52
Speaker 3: it much more, rather than it just being a chronological
11:55
Speaker 3: list of things we did on our holidays type story.
11:58
Speaker 3: When we try to, I think we really try to
12:02
Speaker 3: reflect as well what's good and bad about it. We
12:05
Speaker 3: don't want to always sat on a lovely beach, look
12:07
Speaker 3: at this lovely view. We've had some difficult and challenging
12:11
Speaker 3: times and we really want that to come across as well.
12:14
Speaker 3: We don't want a woe with me either. We're very
12:16
Speaker 3: lucky and we're seeing amazing things. But trying to get
12:20
Speaker 3: that balance between the two elements of any trip, and
12:23
Speaker 3: especially a trip like this, I think's important for us.
12:27
Speaker 2: I don't mind seeing. I'm not a fan of the
12:29
Speaker 2: kind of stereotypical influencer type reporting of travel.
12:38
Speaker 1: Everything is really yeah, everything's coming up roses every day.
12:45
Speaker 2: Even using Instagram is the main way to cover our trip.
12:49
Speaker 2: I personally did that in Europe and just personally didn't
12:53
Speaker 2: enjoy it. I don't like the feeling that I have
12:55
Speaker 2: to be seeing something every day. You know, I want
12:59
Speaker 2: to reflect on it and and write about it in
13:05
Speaker 2: the afterwards, if you see what I mean, and just
13:07
Speaker 2: not feel this need to like film film film post. No,
13:12
Speaker 2: that's just it's Some people are fantastic at that, but
13:16
Speaker 2: it is not my cup of tea at all.
13:19
Speaker 1: I think too, with the substacked platform, the ability for
13:23
Speaker 1: you to write longer form content and get into the
13:25
Speaker 1: stories because you're covering weeks of your life and it's
13:30
Speaker 1: not just a snippet. It's like, you know, there are
13:34
Speaker 1: so many things to talk about too, from logistics to
13:37
Speaker 1: just getting a few bits of paperwork done that's taking
13:39
Speaker 1: you all day, or there's so much behind it that
13:42
Speaker 1: you can't share on Instagram in that way with the
13:45
Speaker 1: shorter form content. So I love that you guys are
13:48
Speaker 1: sharing long form content. I think it's awesome and it
13:51
Speaker 1: reflects that you're enjoying it. So thank you for sharing
13:54
Speaker 1: that with us. It's been it's been a blast following you.
13:58
Speaker 1: It's a little bit behind that. That's how it goes.
14:02
Speaker 1: How it goes. There have beens some experiences that you've
14:05
Speaker 1: gone through and feel free to share as much as
14:09
Speaker 1: you would like, but there have been some things that
14:11
Speaker 1: have been really hard and challenging for you on the road.
14:16
Speaker 1: And I don't know if you would like to speak
14:18
Speaker 1: to you a couple of those things, and if so,
14:21
Speaker 1: like how you managed to keep going with the trip
14:23
Speaker 1: after some pretty intense stuff that's happened on the road.
14:29
Speaker 2: Do you want too?
14:30
Speaker 4: Yeah?
14:31
Speaker 3: So, I mean, in particular, witnessing an extremely bad accident.
14:36
Speaker 3: I think we were probably the second car that arrived
14:40
Speaker 3: after a taxi and a minibus had had a collision
14:43
Speaker 3: on quite a remote, decent enough road, but a remote road,
14:48
Speaker 3: and the minibus was over in a ditch. And at
14:52
Speaker 3: the point where we arrived, all we could see was
14:56
Speaker 3: the taxi in the middle of the road and a
14:58
Speaker 3: couple of people running towards it, and I ran as well,
15:03
Speaker 3: and we were trying to get.
15:05
Speaker 4: People out of the taxi.
15:07
Speaker 3: It was completely crushed and we were having to try
15:09
Speaker 3: and force the doors open and pull people out the windows. Unfortunately,
15:14
Speaker 3: at that point the driver of the taxi was dead
15:16
Speaker 3: and the other people were injured. And at that point
15:21
Speaker 3: Paula started coming from our truck towards me, and I
15:23
Speaker 3: was like, no, no, go back. And then as I
15:25
Speaker 3: turned around, I saw the minibus turned over and people
15:30
Speaker 3: beginning to come out of that whiling and covered in
15:33
Speaker 3: blood and so on. So I just yelled for her
15:36
Speaker 3: to get whatever medical stuff we had out the truck
15:40
Speaker 3: and we ran over. We were the only people with
15:43
Speaker 3: any medical staff. There's no ambulance service. Someone had rung
15:47
Speaker 3: the ambulance service and no one had answered. There's no
15:51
Speaker 3: kind of national health provision. We were lucky in that
15:56
Speaker 3: one of the other cars that then pulled up on
15:58
Speaker 3: the other side was an off duty doctor, and so
16:01
Speaker 3: he was able to take a lot of our medical
16:03
Speaker 3: stuff and at least try and pack some wounds and
16:07
Speaker 3: do some immediate kind of first aid care. But there
16:10
Speaker 3: was nothing much more that could be done, and people
16:14
Speaker 3: kept coming up to us like saying, please just help me,
16:17
Speaker 3: And we're not medically trained. We can clean a wound
16:21
Speaker 3: and give someone a sticking plaster, but we really were
16:25
Speaker 3: way out of our depth with some of the injuries,
16:28
Speaker 3: and it was all pretty chaotic and traumatizing. And then
16:34
Speaker 3: as other traffic came up on the road, there was
16:38
Speaker 3: a soldier who came out of one of the other
16:40
Speaker 3: taxis who started trying to create some kind of order
16:44
Speaker 3: and asked us if we would take some people to
16:46
Speaker 3: hospital in the truck. And they started loading people into
16:51
Speaker 3: our truck and it's it's quite high.
16:52
Speaker 4: It's already like a meter off the ground. That they were.
16:55
Speaker 3: Basically throwing, shoveling or throwing people into the truck with
16:59
Speaker 3: all kinds of injuries. And they tried to get one
17:02
Speaker 3: more person in with their leg broken leg clearly sticking
17:06
Speaker 3: out the door, tied to the door, and we were like,
17:09
Speaker 3: we cannot drive sixty kilometers to the hospital with someone
17:14
Speaker 3: hanging out the door.
17:15
Speaker 4: They're going to fall out.
17:16
Speaker 3: And so we persuaded them to take that person out,
17:20
Speaker 3: and we drove sixty kilometers to the nearest city that
17:25
Speaker 3: had a hospital. All the time people wailing in the
17:30
Speaker 3: back of the van and we kept trying to turn
17:32
Speaker 3: and talk to them and keep them awake and things
17:34
Speaker 3: like that. And eventually when we got to the hospital,
17:38
Speaker 3: the hospital said, no, we can't take anybody. We're full,
17:41
Speaker 3: and we just slightly lost it at that point and
17:44
Speaker 3: said you have to. We have injured people in the
17:47
Speaker 3: back of this truck. And they helped a couple of
17:50
Speaker 3: people out who were badly injured, but would we felt
17:56
Speaker 3: would recover well enough. Probably several broken bones and in
18:00
Speaker 3: real pain, but not probably not too seriously injured. But
18:04
Speaker 3: one woman was really seriously injured and as they lifted
18:08
Speaker 3: her out of the truck onto the hospital trolley, she
18:12
Speaker 3: just died there and then, and we were we and
18:15
Speaker 3: all the people standing around were obviously pretty traumatized and
18:19
Speaker 3: shocked by that. And we were just left standing there
18:23
Speaker 3: with the truck covered in blood inside and somebody just
18:28
Speaker 3: being wheeled off who died right in front of our eyes.
18:31
Speaker 3: So yeah, there it was a pretty traumatic day, not
18:35
Speaker 3: least because Paula had just while I went to try
18:38
Speaker 3: and get them to get the trolley, Paula had spoken
18:40
Speaker 3: to her thirty seconds before that, and we think it
18:44
Speaker 3: was she obviously had some kind of internal injuries that
18:48
Speaker 3: when they lifted her out of the truck onto the
18:51
Speaker 3: trolley cause to die. But yeah, that that was really
18:56
Speaker 3: hard and obviously hit us pretty hard. And a lot
19:00
Speaker 3: of the time when you're driving in West Africa, you
19:02
Speaker 3: know that round any corner that can be an accident
19:06
Speaker 3: and you can be involved in it, and we had
19:08
Speaker 3: been involved in one a few days before.
19:12
Speaker 2: What Jeremy didn't quite rightly didn't mention first because it's
19:16
Speaker 2: not the most important thing was we had literally that
19:19
Speaker 2: morning just left Freetown. This was sincerely on having been
19:24
Speaker 2: delayed four or five days by our own accident, which
19:30
Speaker 2: was far less serious. But it was just really stressful
19:35
Speaker 2: at the time because an enormous truck full of sand
19:38
Speaker 2: crashed into the back of us at a police checkpoint
19:42
Speaker 2: and really wrecked the back doors and just made a
19:44
Speaker 2: huge mess. And in a place likely one generally and
19:50
Speaker 2: a lot of these countries, you can't really find the
19:53
Speaker 2: right places to make repairs that are very good. So
19:56
Speaker 2: we'd spent four days, i think, going around from places
20:00
Speaker 2: trying to sort that out.
20:02
Speaker 3: I mean, when it first happened, the back doors were
20:05
Speaker 3: so bent and wouldn't open. They actually had to get
20:08
Speaker 3: the sand truck that hit us to put a rope
20:10
Speaker 3: on it and reverse to even open our back doors
20:14
Speaker 3: the doors off.
20:15
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was you can imagine how stressful it was
20:18
Speaker 2: having that happened. And then we'd finally sort of got
20:22
Speaker 2: it as good as we could under the circumstances, and
20:26
Speaker 2: we left the city and then within about an hour
20:29
Speaker 2: or something this happened. And so, yeah, this was about
20:33
Speaker 2: a year ago, and for sure in the weeks after that.
20:37
Speaker 2: We never considered stopping the trip, but we felt really
20:43
Speaker 2: vulnerable and sort of, yeah, paranoid about something happening. And
20:49
Speaker 2: I think the most shocking thing, apart from the most
20:52
Speaker 2: obvious what we witnessed, was it really brought home that
20:58
Speaker 2: when something happens in a country like that, one's coming,
21:02
Speaker 2: you know, most people are having to sort it out
21:04
Speaker 2: for themselves, and even when they get to the hospital,
21:07
Speaker 2: they're possibly not going to be treated anyway because they
21:11
Speaker 2: haven't got the money.
21:12
Speaker 3: We know somebody else who was involved in they fell
21:16
Speaker 3: into an open pit and very severely injured, and they
21:21
Speaker 3: ended up at two or three different hospitals, including in
21:25
Speaker 3: the capital, the main hospitals that had no painkillers at all.
21:29
Speaker 3: So you're in agony and they don't even have a
21:32
Speaker 3: single painkiller, and so yeah, that is kind of the
21:36
Speaker 3: extent of the lack of services that you're dealing with.
21:41
Speaker 3: And then you go to a country like Nigeria and
21:44
Speaker 3: the way people drive, I mean, it is just incredible
21:49
Speaker 3: that they have a Yeah, it is like a suicide
21:51
Speaker 3: mission every main road and we very deliberately in Nigeria
21:56
Speaker 3: kept as much as possible to back roads and smaller
22:00
Speaker 3: roads because the highways were just insane, including people driving
22:05
Speaker 3: the wrong way up them at speed because that, yeah,
22:08
Speaker 3: they couldn't be bothered to wait in the traffic.
22:10
Speaker 2: On the other side, the thing is, having said all
22:13
Speaker 2: of these things are absolutely factually true, but we never
22:17
Speaker 2: want to sort of terrify people about these countries. It's
22:22
Speaker 2: just it's just a reality that you have to be
22:25
Speaker 2: aware of. And another good reason if you're traveling slowly
22:28
Speaker 2: and not being in a hord of yourself, you know,
22:30
Speaker 2: stuff happens.
22:34
Speaker 1: What you were saying before about Instagram and a lot
22:37
Speaker 1: of the tendency to post all the good, but this
22:40
Speaker 1: is another situation where you're saying, you know, it's not
22:43
Speaker 1: all like this, it's a little bit of everything, or
22:46
Speaker 1: sometimes you know, the reality of it is it's all
22:49
Speaker 1: never black or white, or you know, it's always fifty
22:52
Speaker 1: shades of gray and yeah, so but yeah, I wanted
22:56
Speaker 1: to say thanks for sharing that with us, because obviously
23:00
Speaker 1: that was a really hard time and I appreciate the
23:04
Speaker 1: insight into your experience, and I guess, yeah, it's a
23:10
Speaker 1: good sort of reminder for all of us too, traveling
23:15
Speaker 1: all the time. You know, these things can happen in
23:17
Speaker 1: an instant and yeah, so thanks for sharing that with us.
23:24
Speaker 2: I'm just going to say something of it. So it
23:26
Speaker 2: does also make us appreciate all the services that we
23:30
Speaker 2: have in our own country.
23:32
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, Yeah, let's move on to your vehicle.
23:39
Speaker 1: It is very like what am I trying to say,
23:44
Speaker 1: It's very I love it. I love the look of it.
23:47
Speaker 1: It's very different, it's unique. So you're driving IVY the
23:51
Speaker 1: Evecho nineteen ninety two ex Belgian military police track. How
23:56
Speaker 1: why did you decide on this platform for your overlin trip?
24:02
Speaker 2: Someone asked us that the other day, didn't it. I mean, yeah,
24:09
Speaker 2: we traveled. We've overlanded before, as you know in Latin America,
24:12
Speaker 2: and we had quite an ordinary car that broke a lot.
24:16
Speaker 2: I mean, just for background, people should know that we're
24:18
Speaker 2: not mechanical people, so we're not like, we love overlanding,
24:22
Speaker 2: we love the lifestyle, but we don't obsess about the
24:28
Speaker 2: vehicle side of things. We just want something that works
24:31
Speaker 2: for us. But we learned a lot of lessons in
24:35
Speaker 2: South America about what didn't work, and we really set
24:39
Speaker 2: about to get an old vehicle. Was no electronics that
24:44
Speaker 2: someone could just open up and see and fix. You know,
24:50
Speaker 2: quite simply, we wanted a high clearance and a good
24:54
Speaker 2: strong four by four, but also a truck that we
24:57
Speaker 2: could live in long term. You know, we felt maybe
25:02
Speaker 2: we're a bit past it as well to live in
25:04
Speaker 2: a rooftop tent for years on end. So but we
25:12
Speaker 2: also wanted to be a light truck and not a
25:14
Speaker 2: seven eight nine ton unimog or an enormous, you know,
25:21
Speaker 2: twelve ton truck. So once you put all those things
25:25
Speaker 2: in the list, one of the best things for us
25:29
Speaker 2: that was available in Belgium and the Netherlands in the
25:34
Speaker 2: area where we were living, was this truck. And we'd
25:37
Speaker 2: seen it before. I can't even remember where we'd seen
25:40
Speaker 2: it online or maybe we'd seen it in real life,
25:47
Speaker 2: and we sort of homed in on it quite early on.
25:50
Speaker 2: We wanted to stay within the three point five tons bracket,
25:54
Speaker 2: and you know, there aren't that many options if you
25:59
Speaker 2: don't want pick up, for example, or you don't want
26:04
Speaker 2: roof top tens, or certainly not in Europe where we
26:08
Speaker 2: were living. So anyway, that's that's kind of just ticked
26:12
Speaker 2: up all the boxes.
26:13
Speaker 3: It's not perfect, I mean, it's it's quirky, and people
26:19
Speaker 3: really do love it. Everywhere we go, people say whether
26:22
Speaker 3: it's a police checkpoint or a mechanic so they say, well,
26:25
Speaker 3: when you're on your way back or when you finish
26:27
Speaker 3: your trip, tell me and I'll buy it off you.
26:29
Speaker 3: So it gets lots of positive attention. And yeah, we
26:33
Speaker 3: like the comfort of living in it. We've tried to
26:36
Speaker 3: balance that the comfort of daily living in a truck
26:41
Speaker 3: because it is for a long time with a vehicle
26:44
Speaker 3: that is appropriate for the roads and the region that
26:47
Speaker 3: we're driving in.
26:48
Speaker 4: So are there better four by fours you could have, yes? Probably.
26:52
Speaker 3: Are there more luxurious comfortable trucks, yes, probably, But can
26:57
Speaker 3: you get the balance of those two things better? Well,
27:00
Speaker 3: there are maybe one or two similar but we really
27:03
Speaker 3: like it. It's five meters long, so it's shorter than.
27:08
Speaker 4: A lot of pickups are.
27:10
Speaker 3: It's one meter eighty eight or ninety wide, so it
27:14
Speaker 3: fits in a normal car parking space, and it can
27:18
Speaker 3: go through a small village and a small town without
27:22
Speaker 3: having to worry too much. And yet at the same
27:24
Speaker 3: time I can stand fully upright in the back all
27:29
Speaker 3: the way through it without having to put the roof
27:32
Speaker 3: up or anything like that. And yeah, we can stand
27:35
Speaker 3: and cook easily, and yeah, we just we like it. Obviously,
27:39
Speaker 3: being older it takes a little bit more maintenance maybe,
27:43
Speaker 3: and no, no, I mean the ark as well, we
27:48
Speaker 3: take we take a bit more maintenance these days as well.
27:51
Speaker 4: But yeah, so it.
27:54
Speaker 3: Leaks here and there and it belches smoke and things
27:58
Speaker 3: like that.
27:59
Speaker 4: But yeah, it's so far touch wood.
28:02
Speaker 3: It's it's been strong and we've really enjoyed living in it.
28:07
Speaker 2: Probably the most common comment we get from people is
28:10
Speaker 2: that's a strong car. Yeah, I mean it just looks
28:12
Speaker 2: it's got a sort of ulo as well, especially men
28:16
Speaker 2: of a certain age quite misty eyed over it and
28:19
Speaker 2: start getting, you know, quite over excited sometimes as we
28:22
Speaker 2: drive past.
28:23
Speaker 3: I think in some of the North African countries they
28:26
Speaker 3: always described it as a strong camel.
28:28
Speaker 4: It was a good camel, you have, like.
28:33
Speaker 1: The ultimate compliment. Yeah, oh cool. So when you guys
28:39
Speaker 1: did the Pan American Highway, you're in a VW. Was
28:42
Speaker 1: it a bus? VW bus?
28:44
Speaker 4: It was a T so it was in the US
28:47
Speaker 4: it was the Eurovan.
28:50
Speaker 1: Oh okay, ah, yeah, okay, nice.
28:54
Speaker 4: So you because we actually bought it in the US.
28:57
Speaker 1: Yeah, got you. Okay, So when you were thinking about
29:01
Speaker 1: this new build, you were like, more space off road,
29:07
Speaker 1: more reliable.
29:09
Speaker 4: Yeah, something that doesn't break down all the time.
29:15
Speaker 1: Been successful so far.
29:17
Speaker 3: So yeah, No, I mean that was in some ways.
29:21
Speaker 3: There was some positives about that. We liked having the
29:23
Speaker 3: pop top and the air that you got inside. I
29:27
Speaker 3: mean that's one of the difficulties with this. It sometimes
29:31
Speaker 3: in the heat is a little bit more of a
29:33
Speaker 3: tin can than when you've got a rooftop tent or
29:35
Speaker 3: you've got like a pop top or.
29:37
Speaker 4: Something like that.
29:39
Speaker 3: But yeah, something that had just a bit more space
29:41
Speaker 3: for us and was so I mean the height and
29:44
Speaker 3: the ground clearance on this is incredible.
29:47
Speaker 2: Like yeah, I mean we want we we didn't ever
29:51
Speaker 2: want to feel like we did before, where we were
29:55
Speaker 2: nervous about what a track was going to be like,
29:58
Speaker 2: or a road or even just the terrible road. Now,
30:01
Speaker 2: I mean I'm not saying we don't worry, like we've
30:04
Speaker 2: really worrying drives, but more about us, you know the
30:09
Speaker 2: car is going to do. Yeah, so we have a lot.
30:15
Speaker 2: We feel much more confident and like Jeremy says, we
30:18
Speaker 2: rarely have to worry about, oh what if we end
30:20
Speaker 2: up in a tiny village. We can squeeze through such
30:23
Speaker 2: small spaces because it's very you know, short at the front,
30:28
Speaker 2: it's it's quite nippy actually, and apart from the height
30:33
Speaker 2: which is three meters and sometimes we have to think
30:35
Speaker 2: about cables or trees. You know, we rarely have like
30:40
Speaker 2: massive anxiety about whether we're going to be able to
30:42
Speaker 2: get somewhere. And that's been you know, even though we're
30:45
Speaker 2: not usually looking for trouble, it finds you and at
30:49
Speaker 2: least we don't have to worry that we're going to
30:51
Speaker 2: get in or out of a situation. So it's given
30:54
Speaker 2: us so much more peace of mind like that. It's
30:56
Speaker 2: been amazing.
30:58
Speaker 1: Yeah, well unless to worry about, that's for sure.
31:02
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly.
31:04
Speaker 1: Yeah. So you guys did a bunch of rehnos to
31:06
Speaker 1: the vehicle in Zagora, Morocco. I think that is it's
31:10
Speaker 1: a good reminder that you don't have to get everything
31:12
Speaker 1: done in your home country before you leave. Yeah, what
31:17
Speaker 1: did you get done there? And how did that all go?
31:23
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean we didn't get tons of things, but so,
31:26
Speaker 3: like we put in an on board compressor because we
31:29
Speaker 3: were going to be starting to do desert areas and
31:32
Speaker 3: things where we needed to easily be able to deflate
31:36
Speaker 3: and reinflate tires and things like that. So we got
31:39
Speaker 3: the front the floor of the driving cab replaced because
31:44
Speaker 3: it had all rotted through and disintegrated, and we added
31:52
Speaker 3: part on the roof rack for extra Jerry cans to
31:58
Speaker 3: be able to be held, because when we were doing
32:00
Speaker 3: some of the long stretches, we needed to be able
32:02
Speaker 3: to ensure we had enough diesel to do certain long distances.
32:07
Speaker 3: So yeah, I mean it was more those kind of things.
32:11
Speaker 2: A lot of body stuff because we'd had in Italy,
32:14
Speaker 2: which is more expensive, but this is a Fea engine
32:17
Speaker 2: and there was a really good place in Italy. We'd
32:21
Speaker 2: quite recently had some big stuff done to the suspension
32:26
Speaker 2: well new leaves, and we'd had it slightly lifted and
32:31
Speaker 2: obviously in the clearances high, but we had it just
32:33
Speaker 2: slightly lifted at the back. He'd done quite a lot
32:36
Speaker 2: of stuff just a few months before, so when we
32:38
Speaker 2: got to Morocco, we weren't relying on them too much
32:41
Speaker 2: for a huge amount of mechanical work. But I just, yeah,
32:48
Speaker 2: you know what you were saying about getting stuff done
32:50
Speaker 2: on the road. I mean, this whole truck has really
32:53
Speaker 2: been a work in progress, because most people will know
32:56
Speaker 2: it's quite stressful unpicking your life and moving how in
33:00
Speaker 2: order to leave and go on a trip. And there
33:04
Speaker 2: was still such a lot that we hadn't done with
33:06
Speaker 2: the truck, and like that gets stressful as well. And
33:10
Speaker 2: then eventually we said to ourselves, we don't like you say,
33:13
Speaker 2: we don't have to do it all for this sort
33:16
Speaker 2: of d day. You know, as long as it's we've
33:20
Speaker 2: done the basics, it's livable, and we've done all the
33:23
Speaker 2: things that we really need to do in Europe, then
33:27
Speaker 2: the rest can wait. And there's still quite a big list.
33:30
Speaker 3: I was about to say, we have an enormous list
33:32
Speaker 3: that we add to all the time, and some of
33:35
Speaker 3: it's ridiculous, things like the cutlery draw we've been going
33:39
Speaker 3: and we must just create some more divisions in the
33:41
Speaker 3: cutlery and it just stays on the list forever, these
33:44
Speaker 3: kind of things, because there's always something more important to do.
33:48
Speaker 3: But yeah, we're kind of looking forward now to getting
33:51
Speaker 3: to maybe a South Africa, Botswana, those countries that have
33:55
Speaker 3: a culture of four x four and overlanding so that
33:58
Speaker 3: we can I think we need the new warning because
34:01
Speaker 3: that's slightly broken and some of that, just some of
34:05
Speaker 3: those kind of things that we want to refresh. An
34:08
Speaker 3: update on the truck, I think.
34:10
Speaker 2: A lot of things. People break a lot of things
34:13
Speaker 2: on the West Africa route mechanically speaking, and you know,
34:19
Speaker 2: in the camper, things just start to fall apart. The heat,
34:23
Speaker 2: the humidity, the roughness, the lack of ability to really
34:26
Speaker 2: make good repairs, although we've had lots of good bush
34:30
Speaker 2: mechanics do stuff, but you know, things are just quite
34:34
Speaker 2: rough around the edges now.
34:37
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I.
34:38
Speaker 3: Think we would really like to try and keep this
34:41
Speaker 3: truck going for a lot longer. And one of the
34:45
Speaker 3: because it's old, one of the issues is rust that
34:48
Speaker 3: we need to deal with. And so I think one
34:49
Speaker 3: of our plans in Southern Africa is to have the
34:53
Speaker 3: whole body taken off and the chassis properly dealt with
34:57
Speaker 3: the rust and possibly galvan eyes like, just to extend
35:03
Speaker 3: the life of the truck because the engine wise, it's
35:07
Speaker 3: running really well and it's been really strong and we
35:11
Speaker 3: think it has a lot more life left in it
35:13
Speaker 3: if we can keep the body work going as well.
35:16
Speaker 4: So that, yeah, that will definitely be.
35:18
Speaker 3: Part of the plan somewhere in the next year in
35:21
Speaker 3: Southern Africa.
35:23
Speaker 5: Not a week goes by that someone doesn't reach out
35:25
Speaker 5: to ask how they can help support the podcast. We
35:29
Speaker 5: are supported entirely by Overland Journal the magazine. So when
35:35
Speaker 5: you become a subscriber to the Overland Journal print magazine,
35:38
Speaker 5: you get this beautiful book that comes in five times
35:40
Speaker 5: a year. It also gives you access to our digital
35:43
Speaker 5: archive and it's well over one hundred pages of gorgeous
35:47
Speaker 5: images and detailed testing and adventures from around the globe.
35:51
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35:53
Speaker 5: you subscribe to the magazine, use the code Overland Podcast
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36:08
Speaker 5: owned journalism that we have been famous for, so it
36:11
Speaker 5: allows us to conduct those tests without any advertorial Another
36:16
Speaker 5: way you can help out too. I produced a book
36:18
Speaker 5: last year with Simon and Schuster called Overlanding one oh one.
36:21
Speaker 5: You can find it on Amazon or Barnes and Noble
36:24
Speaker 5: or even your local bookstore, and that encompasses my decades
36:28
Speaker 5: of travel around the world, all my mistakes and failures
36:31
Speaker 5: and the lessons that I've learned in traveling around the globe.
36:35
Speaker 5: Many of those that you hear on the podcast have
36:38
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Speaker 5: bookstore overlanding one on one and thank you all for
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Speaker 5: listening and for supporting us so much throughout these years.
36:52
Speaker 1: That's so exciting. Yay, that's good. Yeah, I love that.
36:57
Speaker 1: It's like when you get somewhere and there are I
37:00
Speaker 1: don't know, things you haven't seen for a long time,
37:03
Speaker 1: or it's so great to get the list kind of
37:06
Speaker 1: out and get those things checked off. It makes you
37:08
Speaker 1: feel so so great. So looking forward to that. Yeah, Okay,
37:15
Speaker 1: So next I'm going to take you through. I'm going
37:18
Speaker 1: to give you a one or two words or three words,
37:21
Speaker 1: and I would like you to explain the backstory behind them.
37:27
Speaker 1: So I've been reading your sub stack in depth. So
37:29
Speaker 1: the first phrase is that chicken outfits.
37:36
Speaker 4: Oh my god, are we deny it all?
37:38
Speaker 2: So now it's like the worst kind of cultural appropriation
37:42
Speaker 2: that I did. I would never do. So we we
37:45
Speaker 2: were in Benin as we were talking about earlier loads
37:48
Speaker 2: of culture and amazing history to explore and we for
37:55
Speaker 2: that reason, we had for the first time ever, I think,
37:59
Speaker 2: on this trip, we arranged a multi day a guide
38:03
Speaker 2: to take us through some things for two to three days,
38:09
Speaker 2: because it's really the way to do things like, for example, voodoo.
38:13
Speaker 2: You can't just rock up to a voodoo ceremony and
38:19
Speaker 2: and b yeah yeah, yeah yeah. So we so we
38:23
Speaker 2: booked this this guy called Marius, and he and we
38:27
Speaker 2: in the days before, we had also arranged to meet
38:29
Speaker 2: up with a couple called Ken and Rose who are
38:32
Speaker 2: from overlandy British couple and a landover because we planned
38:37
Speaker 2: to travel through Nigeria with them shortly after we left Benin.
38:41
Speaker 2: So we met in Beneen and we invited them also
38:43
Speaker 2: on the tour. And we had just met I think
38:48
Speaker 2: one or two days before the tour started, and the
38:51
Speaker 2: first thing Marius said was we all have to get
38:55
Speaker 2: outfits to wear Taylor made, and we, you know, being polite,
39:02
Speaker 2: just went along with it and he took us. The
39:04
Speaker 2: first thing we did was we went to a fabric
39:06
Speaker 2: shop and we thought we all had to pick our
39:10
Speaker 2: own fabric to get something made, but it turned out
39:13
Speaker 2: Marius was choosing for all of us.
39:16
Speaker 3: Yeah, and so we all pick these beautiful geometric patterns
39:20
Speaker 3: and tasteful things, and he said, no, no, just one
39:23
Speaker 3: and I'll pick it, and we ended up with outfits
39:27
Speaker 3: in yellow with chickens.
39:30
Speaker 2: Just for context. Fabric in West Africa is fantastic. There's
39:35
Speaker 2: like millions of different patterns and a lot of them
39:38
Speaker 2: are very bold with some kind of animal theme. So
39:42
Speaker 2: chicken outfits are actually not that uncommon.
39:44
Speaker 4: Yeah, we've seen plenty.
39:46
Speaker 2: And then so he picked this and as it turned out,
39:51
Speaker 2: it's really common in Beneath and Togo, and I think
39:55
Speaker 2: Nigeria is an extent that when there's a big event
39:57
Speaker 2: or something, the family or the end group or the club,
40:02
Speaker 2: they all decide on the fabric and they dressed the
40:05
Speaker 2: same for the like there's a theme. So that was
40:07
Speaker 2: why we were we were going to be like a
40:09
Speaker 2: team for our final voodoo ceremony. So that's how that happened.
40:16
Speaker 2: We each picked a pattern to be made by this
40:18
Speaker 2: little tailor shop, got measured, and then we went off
40:21
Speaker 2: and did our thing until the next day we had
40:23
Speaker 2: to go back and get them and all dress up
40:27
Speaker 2: together like chickens.
40:30
Speaker 3: But the bizarrest thing is nobody else even gave us
40:33
Speaker 3: a second clan.
40:35
Speaker 4: It was perfectly normal for them.
40:37
Speaker 2: Yeah, we felt self conscious turning up to this voodoo
40:41
Speaker 2: ceremony all dressed in the same was like giant cockrells
40:45
Speaker 2: and eggs all over our stuff, but it was nothing
40:48
Speaker 2: to them and ken Our it's from overlandy. He absolutely
40:53
Speaker 2: got into it. I mean he's still wearing wearing it
40:56
Speaker 2: still every other day from what I can see on Instagram.
41:01
Speaker 4: Absolutely love whereas ours. I would come back out the
41:05
Speaker 4: cupboard right.
41:07
Speaker 1: I was going to ask, like, what's the fate of
41:09
Speaker 1: these outfits, but it sounds like they're tucked for now.
41:13
Speaker 3: We were thinking we might like get something made with
41:16
Speaker 3: the fabric, but something like a purse or like a
41:21
Speaker 3: like a tote bag or something like that, rather than
41:24
Speaker 3: be wearing them around London next time we go.
41:27
Speaker 2: Home as well, Like, I'm a fifty one year old
41:31
Speaker 2: menopausal woman. I'm not going around in hot polyester when
41:34
Speaker 2: it's thirty seven degrees like humidity. Yeah, not for anyone.
41:42
Speaker 1: Maybe, but maybe in a different season cool.
41:47
Speaker 4: It was.
41:48
Speaker 2: It was a great lad.
41:49
Speaker 4: It was funny, yeah.
41:51
Speaker 1: And I'm sure they loved like he loved doing that
41:54
Speaker 1: with you and what we did I bet. Yeah, so good.
41:58
Speaker 1: And also my next the.
42:00
Speaker 2: Culture now, it's just going to add to that that
42:02
Speaker 2: we are Yeah, I think we are are certainly feel
42:06
Speaker 2: quite sensitive about cultural appropriation, and I'm quite worried about
42:13
Speaker 2: that sort of thing. And but when ken War has
42:17
Speaker 2: full outfit on several days when we were traveling together,
42:21
Speaker 2: people loved him and they kept coming up to him
42:23
Speaker 2: and saying, you look like me, like me, and they
42:26
Speaker 2: really liked it. So maybe we're, you know, overly sensitive
42:30
Speaker 2: about these things.
42:32
Speaker 4: Yeah.
42:33
Speaker 1: I mean I I'm also really worried about it too,
42:35
Speaker 1: and I think sometimes I get too worried and then
42:38
Speaker 1: it's like, what's her problem?
42:39
Speaker 2: You know?
42:40
Speaker 1: Yeah, So yeah, it's it's tricky. I think it's also
42:46
Speaker 1: I've been kind of discovering it's like about learning along
42:49
Speaker 1: the way, Like it's not You're not going to be
42:51
Speaker 1: perfect with what you're doing, and so yeah, it's kind
42:55
Speaker 1: of about being open and trying, but also yeah, being
42:59
Speaker 1: aware of it. I don't know, I feel like you
43:02
Speaker 1: need more experience with I don't know what the right
43:04
Speaker 1: answer is, but maybe there isn't one all the time.
43:07
Speaker 2: So yeah, you just have to try and read the
43:10
Speaker 2: room basically.
43:12
Speaker 1: Right, exactly. Okay, So the next word I have for you,
43:16
Speaker 1: and hopefully this is spelled right, is Tatusumba.
43:21
Speaker 3: Yeah, so that was that was the part in the
43:25
Speaker 3: north of Benina we were mentioning as one of the
43:29
Speaker 3: areas we really loved where there was a kind of
43:32
Speaker 3: traditional culture and I suppose religious practices as well, and
43:40
Speaker 3: they had very distinctive kind of architecture of their of
43:47
Speaker 3: their houses, the Somber people. Yeah, and there are still
43:51
Speaker 3: quite a few villages and quite a few of these
43:54
Speaker 3: houses there that we were able to go and visit.
43:59
Speaker 3: Some of them opened up deliberately for tourists to be
44:03
Speaker 3: able to learn a little bit about it. Some others
44:06
Speaker 3: still lived in, although what a lot of people have
44:09
Speaker 3: done is they've built a more modern part onto their
44:13
Speaker 3: traditional house, or they have a little compound and they have.
44:16
Speaker 4: A couple of.
44:19
Speaker 3: Yeah, traditional houses and a couple of modern ones there.
44:22
Speaker 3: But yeah, in some of these villages we got to
44:26
Speaker 3: meet various dignitaries and chiefs and learn about some of
44:31
Speaker 3: the practices and yeah, it was it was fascinating, absolutely
44:36
Speaker 3: fascinating area.
44:38
Speaker 4: That, yeah, that we loved, and you really.
44:43
Speaker 3: Did feel like, you know, sometimes you go somewhere and
44:46
Speaker 3: you think, oh, this is a bit different, and then
44:48
Speaker 3: other places you just think didn't really realize there are
44:52
Speaker 3: still places where people live in such a kind of
44:56
Speaker 3: traditional way with so little our side influence.
45:03
Speaker 4: And that's what that felt like.
45:05
Speaker 3: Yeah, well it did genuinely feel like that, not that
45:08
Speaker 3: no one ever goes and visits it, because they do,
45:11
Speaker 3: but that they're that people have not been significantly influenced
45:17
Speaker 3: by pressure from the outside world, and that they still
45:21
Speaker 3: live a very very traditional lifestyle.
45:24
Speaker 2: And these tata somba Tata is like means house, So
45:29
Speaker 2: somba house they were. They're unique in the way it's
45:34
Speaker 2: it's like a sort of mud and strong constructed house,
45:38
Speaker 2: but it's got two stories, which is really unusual in
45:43
Speaker 2: this part of Africa or anywhere, I think. And it
45:46
Speaker 2: was all about building our two floor house to like
45:49
Speaker 2: repel enemies and slave hunters. They have had these little
45:54
Speaker 2: bedrooms on the second floor that you had to crawl
45:56
Speaker 2: into just to make it really difficult to get in
46:01
Speaker 2: and drag people out of them. And they had all
46:05
Speaker 2: sorts of practical uses as well for dry and the
46:07
Speaker 2: grains and chili's and things like that. Now it was
46:11
Speaker 2: just it really was like being transported. Amazing, beautiful.
46:20
Speaker 1: I love that cool, Okay, love that one next to
46:24
Speaker 1: Elmina Castle.
46:28
Speaker 2: Oh well, that Elmina Castle is one of the most
46:30
Speaker 2: famous like slave forts in Ghana. So and this the
46:38
Speaker 2: history of slavery is one of the biggest historical points
46:43
Speaker 2: of interest and shame.
46:45
Speaker 3: And particularly around that part of West Africa, around Ghana
46:50
Speaker 3: and Senegal down to God yeah.
46:53
Speaker 2: All the way down. I mean, we visited slavery places
46:57
Speaker 2: in Guinea Bissau, Senegal have in the past. Ghana, that
47:02
Speaker 2: whole course is just rife with that history. And Ilmina
47:08
Speaker 2: is one of the most sort of infamous and I
47:12
Speaker 2: think it's been owned or run by just about every
47:15
Speaker 2: European colonizer in the history. And it's very sobering and
47:21
Speaker 2: it's quite difficult as a person, especially from Britain, which
47:27
Speaker 2: has such a terrible, you know, track record, to visit
47:31
Speaker 2: these places, but we find it quite important and interesting.
47:36
Speaker 2: Just makes you feel quite sort of raw afterwards.
47:42
Speaker 3: I think what's what's particularly good about the way in
47:45
Speaker 3: which they've created an element of tourism around it, or
47:51
Speaker 3: an element of people being able to visit, is that
47:54
Speaker 3: a lot of the people involved are descendants of people
47:58
Speaker 3: who were the victor terms of slavery in these places,
48:02
Speaker 3: and so there's a there's a kind of certain rawness
48:05
Speaker 3: to the way they tell the story, and extremely passionate
48:09
Speaker 3: telling of the story of slavery. It's not just a
48:12
Speaker 3: load of figures or statistics. There's a kind of real
48:16
Speaker 3: human element to it. So yeah, I think that makes
48:19
Speaker 3: it even more powerful, because the numbers almost become too
48:24
Speaker 3: much to comprehend, but two or three individual stories illustrating
48:29
Speaker 3: it make you understand much more what it meant to
48:32
Speaker 3: someone and telling their story of the passing through the
48:36
Speaker 3: kind of the last gate before they got onto one
48:39
Speaker 3: of the ships bound for the Caribbean or the Americas.
48:44
Speaker 2: It's very well it's very well done in Ghana in particular,
48:49
Speaker 2: all of that sad of tourism, and it does attract
48:52
Speaker 2: a lot of tourists.
48:54
Speaker 3: In particular, I think a lot of North Americans of
49:00
Speaker 3: can descent who travel back to places where their families
49:04
Speaker 3: originally came from. In a number of countries where you've
49:08
Speaker 3: met groups of those people who felt they just wanted
49:11
Speaker 3: to learn much more about the history of their families
49:15
Speaker 3: and the history of their their kind of origins.
49:22
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've been watching a series on Netflix called High
49:25
Speaker 1: on the Hog. I don't know if you've heard of it.
49:27
Speaker 1: I would really recommend it. It's yeah, it's really good.
49:30
Speaker 1: It dives into the host of this somalier and he
49:35
Speaker 1: goes back to West Africa to his roots and meets
49:40
Speaker 1: up with a lot of people along the way. But
49:42
Speaker 1: he is sort of covering the way that food came
49:47
Speaker 1: from West Africa to the US and how that food
49:49
Speaker 1: culture flourished. Yeah, and Eastern and actually not even just
49:55
Speaker 1: Eastern US, I would say, like most of the countries.
49:58
Speaker 1: So it's based on a book as well though that. Yeah,
50:00
Speaker 1: I loved I love it. Yeah, really thoughtful, beautifully filmed series.
50:05
Speaker 1: So if anybody wants to check that out or has
50:07
Speaker 1: checked that out, it's a good one.
50:09
Speaker 2: Yeah.
50:09
Speaker 1: That sounds good and it ties back to what you
50:11
Speaker 1: were saying to you. So, yeah, speaking of food food culture.
50:16
Speaker 1: My last sort of one to to word prompt is
50:20
Speaker 1: OGII and train train saw train train trained, crank crane, Yeah.
50:28
Speaker 2: Crank crane. Yeah.
50:30
Speaker 1: The autocorrect is like so bad on the notes.
50:37
Speaker 2: Yeah, So these were things that we we had a
50:40
Speaker 2: chance and steadily owned to learn a little bit more
50:43
Speaker 2: about the food, just because we had longer time there
50:47
Speaker 2: standing still, and that's when we really got into these
50:53
Speaker 2: eating these different types of leaves that Jeremy talked about
50:56
Speaker 2: in the beginning. So I think crane crane is I
50:59
Speaker 2: can't even remember what the plant is. That is a
51:03
Speaker 2: smaller green leaf that they would make. They chop it
51:05
Speaker 2: really finally and make a really rich sauce with palm
51:08
Speaker 2: oil and things like that in it and sieri leone
51:13
Speaker 2: and they're really good sauces for rice. Involves something like ogiery,
51:21
Speaker 2: which is what you mentioned, which is like a new Mammy.
51:23
Speaker 2: There's different hundreds of different varieties of things like that,
51:26
Speaker 2: but it gives a new Mammy flavor from by fermenting
51:31
Speaker 2: seeds or beans and things like that, and they just
51:34
Speaker 2: create a little stink bomb that you can buy in
51:38
Speaker 2: the market and you just add a little bit of
51:40
Speaker 2: it to your whatever sauce you're making for your rice,
51:43
Speaker 2: and it just really gives it a bit packs of punch.
51:47
Speaker 3: I mean, we were quite lucky in that area because
51:49
Speaker 3: we stayed at this beach side place and the woman
51:53
Speaker 3: there was really kind of keen on cooking and she'd
51:56
Speaker 3: always come see what we were cooking. And we were
51:59
Speaker 3: always asking her questions, how do we cook this?
52:02
Speaker 4: What do we do with this?
52:03
Speaker 3: And we we'd seen these little black balls being sold
52:07
Speaker 3: in the market and bought some and used it, and
52:10
Speaker 3: then she said that there were other types, and so
52:13
Speaker 3: we looked some up online to see what else we
52:15
Speaker 3: could find. We went to a market and we bought
52:17
Speaker 3: another one, and when we came back, we said to her, light,
52:20
Speaker 3: so how do we cook this one?
52:21
Speaker 4: She said, well, you don't. It's soap.
52:24
Speaker 3: You wash with it, and they look they look identical.
52:28
Speaker 3: But we would have tried cooking it somehow and wondered
52:31
Speaker 3: why it didn't taste like when we had it in.
52:34
Speaker 2: The ball, and I just thought it looked like some
52:36
Speaker 2: kind of fermented bean.
52:38
Speaker 3: So luckily we had we had some local knowledge to
52:41
Speaker 3: rely on.
52:44
Speaker 2: The food and West Africa is quite generally quite simple.
52:51
Speaker 2: There's it can feel at first like there's not a
52:57
Speaker 2: lot of variety, but again once you sort of dig
53:01
Speaker 2: down a bit, you can find some really nice stuff.
53:04
Speaker 2: Some of it's, you know, not too our liking. There's
53:08
Speaker 2: a lot of quite starchy what they call swallow food
53:13
Speaker 2: made generally from cassaba or maize, and tons of different
53:19
Speaker 2: ways of preparing it, and some of them can be
53:21
Speaker 2: quite storgy, But in general we've really enjoyed the food. Yeah,
53:26
Speaker 2: you just have to be quite open minded about it.
53:31
Speaker 1: Sure, spicy stuff because a lot of the spices, like chilies,
53:35
Speaker 1: are such a huge part of the good culture.
53:39
Speaker 2: So I think in Nigeria, especially in Nigeria, it's another
53:48
Speaker 2: level of blow your head off.
53:50
Speaker 3: And it's very peppery rather than kind of more traditional chilies.
53:55
Speaker 3: There's a lot of black pepper type spiciness things, which
54:00
Speaker 3: can be quite challenging for some people.
54:03
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, yeah, if you have a low toons
54:06
Speaker 1: to spice or that sort of intense peppery flavor, that
54:10
Speaker 1: can be hard on the hard on the gut and
54:12
Speaker 1: the stomach for some people. For sure.
54:15
Speaker 3: Luckily we don't and we love spicy food so.
54:20
Speaker 1: Perfect. So as we wrap up, just looking back at
54:24
Speaker 1: the last few years, I'm wondering, like, what is your
54:28
Speaker 1: biggest takeaway so far or how are you different, if
54:33
Speaker 1: at all?
54:36
Speaker 2: I'm not sure if we're different. I think we don't
54:39
Speaker 2: necessarily go in for the idea that we're completely transformed
54:45
Speaker 2: as people, but we definitely do learn a lot of things.
54:49
Speaker 2: We're definitely appreciating traveling slowly. We've done it before to
54:53
Speaker 2: an extent, I think that we just we can really
54:57
Speaker 2: see the contrast between what we're doing doing and some
55:00
Speaker 2: people who have to hurry through here, and I think
55:04
Speaker 2: it really makes us feel grateful for what we've gained
55:08
Speaker 2: out of not having to go so fast.
55:15
Speaker 3: I mean, I think we were definitely we know we
55:18
Speaker 3: love this kind of light style, and you always before
55:22
Speaker 3: we left again, we were like, oh can we do
55:25
Speaker 3: this again?
55:26
Speaker 4: Are we?
55:27
Speaker 3: Are we hard enough and tough enough to be able
55:30
Speaker 3: to get through this challenge? And like you start doing
55:33
Speaker 3: it and you're like, oh, yeah, I forgot how much
55:35
Speaker 3: I love this lifestyle. And and sometimes when we've had
55:41
Speaker 3: some easier parts of this, we're like, we really fancy
55:45
Speaker 3: a bit of a challenge again, Like shall we go
55:47
Speaker 3: offload here or shall we go tiy and find this
55:50
Speaker 3: place that's really hard to make?
55:53
Speaker 4: Yeah, to make it a bit difficult.
55:54
Speaker 3: And then we really appreciate the little luxuries even more
55:58
Speaker 3: when we find a nice restaurant or a nice place
56:02
Speaker 3: to campo.
56:03
Speaker 4: There's a swimming pool than the place where you're at.
56:07
Speaker 3: They can be they can be small things, but they
56:10
Speaker 3: that you kind of really value them off the sweating
56:13
Speaker 3: for days in a dusty like little village somewhere and things.
56:17
Speaker 2: We really like to mix it up and not put
56:20
Speaker 2: ourselves under pressure to be, you know, a particular way
56:25
Speaker 2: about the way we travel, you know. And I think
56:28
Speaker 2: that comes a bit with age as well, Like I
56:31
Speaker 2: if I want something a bit more easy for a
56:34
Speaker 2: few days, fine, and if if I want to not
56:38
Speaker 2: shower for a week, that's fine as well. Like it,
56:41
Speaker 2: we just kind of go through different phases and we
56:44
Speaker 2: don't put ourselves under pressure to be like a brand like,
56:47
Speaker 2: oh this is how we travel. No, we just do whatever.
56:51
Speaker 2: And there are times when you do have a bad
56:53
Speaker 2: day in question like why am I doing this? Like
56:56
Speaker 2: my life could be so much easier. But we've really
57:02
Speaker 2: learned to sort of just get over it when we've
57:04
Speaker 2: had a bad one just generally just try to move
57:10
Speaker 2: on and say that was awful, but you know, we
57:18
Speaker 2: did choose this, so there's no good in just complaining
57:21
Speaker 2: about it all the time.
57:22
Speaker 3: But I think one of the things as well that
57:24
Speaker 3: you do realize when you do this even more here
57:27
Speaker 3: than I think in Latin America, is.
57:29
Speaker 4: How lucky you are by by.
57:35
Speaker 3: Dint of where you're born, the fact that we have
57:38
Speaker 3: a passport that means we can travel through all these countries.
57:42
Speaker 3: The amount of people who say, oh, will you take
57:45
Speaker 3: me back to Belgium, or how do I get to Belgium?
57:48
Speaker 3: Can you get me a visa? And you say, well,
57:50
Speaker 3: you need a passport, and there's no chance they're even
57:53
Speaker 3: getting a passport, let alone European countries giving them a
57:57
Speaker 3: visa to come and live there. And I think you
58:00
Speaker 3: really do realize how lucky you are for that reason alone,
58:04
Speaker 3: that we have so many privileges and we're privileged to
58:08
Speaker 3: be able to travel in these areas, and that means
58:12
Speaker 3: you also therefore need to do it as sensitively as
58:15
Speaker 3: you possibly can. Like you yeah, like we were talking
58:19
Speaker 3: about cultural appropriation earlier, like being culturally aware, being as
58:25
Speaker 3: friendly as you can, even if it's the Some days
58:28
Speaker 3: in Nigeria, two hundred people would come up to you
58:31
Speaker 3: to say hello and wave at you and want to
58:33
Speaker 3: shake your hand. By number one hundred, you want to say,
58:37
Speaker 3: please leave me alone, but you can't because that is
58:41
Speaker 3: what they that is what they remember and it's important
58:44
Speaker 3: to them to wave at you and you to wave
58:47
Speaker 3: back or so. Yeah, I think we we learn those
58:51
Speaker 3: things always on the road.
58:53
Speaker 4: A little bit of humility is important.
58:57
Speaker 2: There was a really interesting one in Nigeria that we
58:59
Speaker 2: talked about a lot. That it's a regional West Africa,
59:03
Speaker 2: not just West Africa, but particularly in West Africa. Greeting
59:07
Speaker 2: people in our positive and the right way is like
59:12
Speaker 2: really important. And you'll watch people greeting each other. It
59:18
Speaker 2: can take quite a long time. You know, how's your mom,
59:21
Speaker 2: how's your goat, how's your you know, it goes on
59:24
Speaker 2: and on, and it's very important to greet people and
59:27
Speaker 2: not look like you're too busy or not bothered. And
59:32
Speaker 2: in Nigeria it was like that on steroids, you had
59:35
Speaker 2: to greet everybody. But and to not greet someone is rude.
59:42
Speaker 2: For us in our culture, to interrupt someone while they're
59:45
Speaker 2: talking is rude. But in Nigeria, if you haven't greeted everyone,
59:51
Speaker 2: they'll just interrupt you while you're talking to the other person,
59:54
Speaker 2: say why have you greeted me? And so you're trying
59:56
Speaker 2: not to get angry because you know that for that's
1:00:00
Speaker 2: more important than the interrupting thing. But you have to
1:00:03
Speaker 2: really check yourself some days and not to you know,
1:00:09
Speaker 2: sort of what's the word be grumpy or question?
1:00:14
Speaker 1: Yea being a good guest, A good guest? Yeah, right,
1:00:18
Speaker 1: doing your homework.
1:00:23
Speaker 2: But yeah, it can be difficult. You just have to
1:00:26
Speaker 2: really think about what it is that's going through your
1:00:29
Speaker 2: mind and have a little chat with yourself.
1:00:31
Speaker 1: Right yeah, yeah, So self reflection good advice, good advice
1:00:38
Speaker 1: before a week go. What are you reading right now?
1:00:42
Speaker 1: Each of you?
1:00:45
Speaker 4: Oh wow, I've been absolutely.
1:00:47
Speaker 2: One of my big disappointments about this trip is how
1:00:50
Speaker 2: little I'm reading, because I love reading, so at the
1:00:54
Speaker 2: moment I am trying to read a book by an
1:00:57
Speaker 2: amazing Belgian author whose name I've forgotten, and it's called Congo,
1:01:01
Speaker 2: and it's just a fantastic sweep through the history of Congo,
1:01:06
Speaker 2: which is phenomenally complicated. This is what is now the DRC.
1:01:13
Speaker 2: It's mainly about and it's got quite a bad history
1:01:17
Speaker 2: with Belgium, so it is a history book, but it's
1:01:21
Speaker 2: very sort of journalistically written. But yeah, I do find
1:01:27
Speaker 2: that with the driving, the planning, the camping stuff, just
1:01:34
Speaker 2: all the things you have to do in a day,
1:01:36
Speaker 2: I don't have as much time for reading as I
1:01:38
Speaker 2: thought I would, And yeah, yeah, every week, you know,
1:01:42
Speaker 2: you know how it is. So but anyway, that is
1:01:44
Speaker 2: the book that I am trying to read.
1:01:46
Speaker 3: And I've just finished that book. So and then I've
1:01:50
Speaker 3: read Appointment in Zambia, which is in nineteen seventy three,
1:01:56
Speaker 3: a couple driving from London to Zambia where he'd got
1:02:02
Speaker 3: a job, but in a nineteen seventy saloon car, and
1:02:06
Speaker 3: at the time they could drive. At the time, they
1:02:09
Speaker 3: could drive directly across the desert through the Sahara because
1:02:13
Speaker 3: those countries were open and you were able to do that,
1:02:16
Speaker 3: so you didn't have to do the kind of round
1:02:18
Speaker 3: West Avca. So he drives straight through Algeria and Mali
1:02:22
Speaker 3: and all the way through the desert there. You think,
1:02:25
Speaker 3: we have some days that are challenging doing that, like
1:02:28
Speaker 3: in the nineteen seventies in a I can't remember, it
1:02:31
Speaker 3: was like a hillman, a really not even a really
1:02:34
Speaker 3: good saloon car, like a really bad one.
1:02:36
Speaker 4: Yeah.
1:02:37
Speaker 3: It's quite quite entertaining and amusing and makes you realize
1:02:41
Speaker 3: that what you thought.
1:02:44
Speaker 4: Was a bad day isn't really as bad as it
1:02:45
Speaker 4: could have been.
1:02:47
Speaker 1: Fair Enough ask some recommendations. I'm going to add those
1:02:52
Speaker 1: to my list as well. So thank you, thank you
1:02:54
Speaker 1: so much for joining me today to chat. It's been
1:02:58
Speaker 1: so great to be your world for a bit. And yeah,
1:03:01
Speaker 1: thanks for taking the time.
1:03:04
Speaker 2: Well thanks ssh. I hope we made some sense of course.
1:03:08
Speaker 1: Yeah, where can we find you online if people want
1:03:11
Speaker 1: to learn more about you or read your substack or.
1:03:15
Speaker 2: Yeah, so the so main are really the only way
1:03:19
Speaker 2: that I'm sharing with Trip is on substack, and that's
1:03:22
Speaker 2: Trailing ivy dot substack dot com. I do when I've
1:03:27
Speaker 2: posted on substack, I do then post that on Instagram,
1:03:32
Speaker 2: which is at Trailing Ivy underscore at Trailing Underscore Ivy
1:03:37
Speaker 2: Underscore And but really, all I'm doing there, yeah, is
1:03:41
Speaker 2: just alerting people to the substack.
1:03:44
Speaker 1: Perfect. I love it. We'll see you there. Thank you,