Latest / Deep Tech Germany – AI, Robotics & Frontier Innovation by Startuprad.io™ / German Biotech Pioneers: The Qiagen Story — Prof. Detlev Riesner
Transcript
- WEBVTT 00:00:05.097 --> 00:00:13.197 Welcome to startuprad.io your podcast and youtube blog covering the german startup 00:00:13.197 --> 00:00:17.697 scene with news interviews and live events, 00:00:19.357 --> 00:00:24.877 hey guys this is joe from startuprad.io and pretty uncommon introduction because 00:00:24.877 --> 00:00:29.117 This is part two of my interview with Detlef Riesner, 00:00:29.617 --> 00:00:35.257 co-founder of Kia Gain, first startup to ever list from Germany at Nasdaq in 00:00:35.257 --> 00:00:41.617 1996 and now a constituent of Germany's lead index, DAX40. 00:00:41.857 --> 00:00:46.217 I'm now at the point where I review this content and actually I have to say 00:00:46.217 --> 00:00:51.177 it's a little bit long for just one sitting, one piece. That's why we cut this into two pieces. 00:00:51.197 --> 00:00:55.677 If you haven't heard the other piece, one, please go there and start there. 00:00:56.117 --> 00:01:01.837 Now enjoy part two. Yeah, I think there are a few more examples who really got 00:01:01.837 --> 00:01:07.937 trashed during the burst of the dotcom bubble and many came back really strong. 00:01:08.097 --> 00:01:10.257 For example, Amazon and so on and so forth. 00:01:11.895 --> 00:01:17.495 Jumping a few years into the future, can you guide us through the decisions 00:01:17.495 --> 00:01:21.835 you had going becoming a member of DAX? 00:01:22.055 --> 00:01:26.955 How did this work? And at the time you were the head of the supervisory board, 00:01:27.115 --> 00:01:33.595 what were your thoughts about going to become a member of the iconic DAX, 00:01:33.695 --> 00:01:36.055 Germany's most important stock index? 00:01:36.055 --> 00:01:42.275 I have to agree and have to admit that was after the time I was chairman of the board. 00:01:42.575 --> 00:01:50.095 I was at the advisory board, the scientific advisory board, and I stepped back 00:01:50.095 --> 00:01:56.815 from the chairmanship of the supervisory board because we had a younger, 00:01:57.115 --> 00:02:00.495 very well-known member of the advisory board. 00:02:00.595 --> 00:02:08.675 I think he could take over, yeah, but he will take over only if he offers it to him right now. 00:02:09.475 --> 00:02:15.055 So that was the situation. And therefore, I think the CEO asked me, 00:02:15.175 --> 00:02:18.035 why don't you stay a year longer or two years? 00:02:18.175 --> 00:02:21.635 No, I said, now is a good time that he can take over. 00:02:22.135 --> 00:02:30.315 Unfortunately, he left two years later because he got the offer from ThyssenKrupp 00:02:30.315 --> 00:02:32.555 and all these companies, bigger boards. 00:02:33.735 --> 00:02:37.495 But with sleepless nights, I would say, yeah. 00:02:39.895 --> 00:02:44.215 Kaya Jin had no sleepless nights, yeah. I see. 00:02:45.255 --> 00:02:54.555 But I have to say when, yeah, from the time of the IPO to today, 00:02:54.775 --> 00:02:58.555 I think the company, I did not check, 00:02:58.795 --> 00:03:03.755 calculated exactly, must have grown by a factor of five or so. 00:03:04.621 --> 00:03:14.861 And then, when we came close, then we reached really a time where it was close to DAX, yeah? 00:03:15.381 --> 00:03:20.721 And DAX, of course, depends how many shares are treated, yeah? 00:03:22.021 --> 00:03:28.981 Not when you have a family who owns 80% of the shares, you can never go to the 00:03:28.981 --> 00:03:36.301 DAX because there's no business on the stock market. 00:03:37.441 --> 00:03:42.321 But we had a very separated, very divided ownership, 00:03:43.201 --> 00:03:48.561 and there was a lot of treatment, a lot of dealing with the chairman, 00:03:49.001 --> 00:03:52.701 with the stocks, and so this came in close to it. 00:03:53.161 --> 00:03:57.901 And then the DAX was extended from DAX30 to DAX40. 00:03:58.861 --> 00:04:02.841 Yeah and therefore they had to accept new 00:04:02.841 --> 00:04:06.741 companies and kaijin was fortunately among 00:04:06.741 --> 00:04:15.541 the new companies which fit into the scale of dax 40 yeah i see what you're 00:04:15.541 --> 00:04:20.741 referring to mostly is the so-called free float meaning how many stocks are 00:04:20.741 --> 00:04:25.801 traded on a regular basis and not held you say the right word, yeah. Exactly. 00:04:27.881 --> 00:04:33.001 Reflecting on your journey to become a global leader in molecular diagnostics, 00:04:33.581 --> 00:04:39.261 would core values and strategy were pivotal in sustaining its growth and innovation? 00:04:39.861 --> 00:04:44.421 Yeah, yeah. I think there were two tendencies I can say. 00:04:44.561 --> 00:04:56.461 First, of course, they said, we concentrate our diagnostics on Nucleic Acid Diagnostics. 00:04:56.541 --> 00:04:59.501 That means we 00:04:59.931 --> 00:05:06.711 virus detection, but also genetic diseases, 00:05:07.151 --> 00:05:10.831 and then particularly later genetic 00:05:10.831 --> 00:05:17.491 modifications which are responsive to pharmaceuticals or non-responsive. 00:05:17.711 --> 00:05:27.751 For example, such an oncological medicament like Avastin is good for some people, 00:05:27.951 --> 00:05:36.371 but bad for other people and cryogen cut then deliver the tests, the genetic tests, 00:05:36.871 --> 00:05:44.011 to tell these people will suffer from it and these people will have enormous advantages from it. 00:05:44.531 --> 00:05:55.511 And so they developed the tests step by step, from the beginning clear tests, for example, viral. 00:05:57.791 --> 00:06:05.651 Detection, and then to mutations which are close to pharmaceutical applications, 00:06:06.891 --> 00:06:20.731 but of course then also to veterinary tests and to tests from the Gerichtsmedizin. 00:06:20.731 --> 00:06:26.011 What's Gerichtsmedizin, and that means extremely sensitive tests, 00:06:26.291 --> 00:06:31.231 tests made from a hair, yeah, and this collagen could develop. 00:06:31.651 --> 00:06:39.951 And we had done on this in my institute many years ago, never knowing that it 00:06:39.951 --> 00:06:43.911 was going to the court, that it had to be used by the court later, 00:06:44.091 --> 00:06:45.311 by court medicine, yeah. 00:06:46.571 --> 00:06:50.411 And those things, very sensitive tests. 00:06:51.391 --> 00:06:57.311 Gerichtsmedizin was a new thing, Veteran-Medizin, but the main thing is of course 00:06:57.311 --> 00:07:00.091 human diagnostic, yeah. 00:07:00.841 --> 00:07:06.861 But then also, for example, latent diseases, diseases you don't see, 00:07:07.041 --> 00:07:09.981 but you have already in your body. 00:07:10.741 --> 00:07:13.141 This is particularly pneumonia. 00:07:14.201 --> 00:07:18.781 They developed a test for that. So, step by step, new tests. 00:07:19.461 --> 00:07:24.861 I don't know how many hundred tests they can offer. And that was a critical 00:07:24.861 --> 00:07:32.341 decision that we had to develop an automat, an instrument, diagnostic instrument. 00:07:32.721 --> 00:07:38.381 I can remember in the late 19th, after, of course, the IPO, 00:07:38.701 --> 00:07:44.961 we discussed for months or even two years, should we develop an instrument, 00:07:45.281 --> 00:07:48.101 then we go again to a new direction? 00:07:48.801 --> 00:07:53.781 Or is that too risky? Yeah, do we have to invest too much money? 00:07:54.321 --> 00:08:00.661 And Kairajan invested a lot of money and it took, I think, several years before 00:08:00.661 --> 00:08:04.361 they had revenues from the instrument. 00:08:05.881 --> 00:08:11.701 But then finally, we thought it fits together. We have the kits and we deliver the instruments. 00:08:12.041 --> 00:08:17.821 But the kits are also running on other instruments, but we can offer both. 00:08:17.821 --> 00:08:25.921 So and it was yeah from then on that was a new step in growing the company I 00:08:25.921 --> 00:08:30.581 see we'll be back after a short ad break. 00:08:35.787 --> 00:08:38.787 Uh thank you for taking so much time with us we may 00:08:38.787 --> 00:08:42.067 add to our audience that we're now already more 00:08:42.067 --> 00:08:45.007 than an hour in our recording session here 00:08:45.007 --> 00:08:47.847 i would like to talk a little bit about your role 00:08:47.847 --> 00:08:53.987 as a business angel let me put one day the the diagnostic the expression is 00:08:53.987 --> 00:09:02.187 forensic diagnostic forensic diagnostics yes diagnostic yeah great um i want 00:09:02.187 --> 00:09:05.987 to put a little emphasis on your role as a business angel investor now, 00:09:06.167 --> 00:09:08.247 because we met at the Business Angel Day. 00:09:09.647 --> 00:09:14.427 Transitioning into business angel, what key factors do you consider when you're 00:09:14.427 --> 00:09:17.507 evaluating potential biotech startups for investments? 00:09:20.047 --> 00:09:28.767 I think I evaluate the same qualities as I described for you when we started Cryogen. 00:09:28.767 --> 00:09:38.127 A good idea and the character of the scientists or of the startup people. 00:09:39.367 --> 00:09:47.967 That is the main point. Not so much when they promise you how much money they will earn on the market. 00:09:48.727 --> 00:09:52.307 When they are on the market, everything has changed anyway. 00:09:53.067 --> 00:10:00.927 And when they think too early on the market, that means it's not really innovative. 00:10:01.487 --> 00:10:03.927 So it is your, they think already on the market. 00:10:04.707 --> 00:10:10.367 So in real innovation is without a market. 00:10:10.747 --> 00:10:13.447 You have to develop the market. There is no market. 00:10:14.127 --> 00:10:18.447 Yeah. And that is only always when an investor is asked now, 00:10:18.967 --> 00:10:23.087 then give me an estimation about your product on the market. 00:10:23.267 --> 00:10:31.267 I think then my product is not innovative if I can get you that estimation, 00:10:31.627 --> 00:10:34.187 yeah, because we have to develop the market. 00:10:35.787 --> 00:10:40.587 Typically, molecular biology and medicine, it did not exist before. 00:10:41.227 --> 00:10:47.207 Very little, only in special institutes, yeah. and suddenly there was a market 00:10:47.207 --> 00:10:48.787 because there was an innovation. 00:10:50.147 --> 00:10:59.127 Whether it always goes that smoothly or that so well, one cannot say, 00:10:59.327 --> 00:11:02.367 but that is the idea behind, I have to say. 00:11:03.067 --> 00:11:11.587 And that's also an idea when I work as a business angel, but what is a business angel? yeah. 00:11:13.127 --> 00:11:20.067 Business Angel is somebody who knows a little bit about the start-up scenery 00:11:20.067 --> 00:11:22.267 and he can tell something, 00:11:22.607 --> 00:11:28.567 he can give good advice to younger people. 00:11:30.963 --> 00:11:40.323 Help with some investments, a business angel, but does not give the major investment, 00:11:40.623 --> 00:11:41.663 the smaller investment, 00:11:42.003 --> 00:11:48.883 and that is important that the business angel has also commercial interests. 00:11:49.323 --> 00:11:59.623 I never would negotiate that, therefore I said in one dinner speech what a business angel, 00:11:59.883 --> 00:12:07.483 it's a fall, an angel fallen from the heaven because it was kicked out from 00:12:07.483 --> 00:12:13.523 the heaven because an angel does not allow to have commercial interest, 00:12:14.083 --> 00:12:18.743 but the business angel has commercial interest and therefore it was kicked out of the heaven. 00:12:19.083 --> 00:12:22.943 But it's good enough for the earth. It's still working on the earth. 00:12:23.963 --> 00:12:29.083 That is my definition of a business angel. Now you know. So I know. 00:12:29.543 --> 00:12:39.203 Can you share some investments you did as a business angel to show the potential of biotech innovation? 00:12:41.063 --> 00:12:49.403 Yeah, that is very different. I think as a business angel or as a later investor, 00:12:50.443 --> 00:12:53.583 I got involved in very different companies. 00:12:54.623 --> 00:13:00.703 For example, companies which were set up by colleagues of mine, 00:13:00.843 --> 00:13:06.283 I know best, I know the people, I know the science. That is the best situation. 00:13:06.903 --> 00:13:11.283 There was also a company I knew that was a very good scientist, 00:13:11.503 --> 00:13:15.963 but he was a terrible manager. 00:13:15.963 --> 00:13:22.503 So he went bankrupt but because the science was so good and another investor 00:13:22.503 --> 00:13:29.663 and myself we bought from the insolvency the company and said now we have to 00:13:29.663 --> 00:13:33.843 arrange it very well and the company worked again. 00:13:35.086 --> 00:13:39.926 And it was sold after four years to an American company, Caterland, 00:13:40.746 --> 00:13:47.806 I think with a factor of five or six or whatever, but it stayed on the same place in Germany. 00:13:47.806 --> 00:13:53.666 And whenever I was involved in selling a company and an exit, 00:13:54.126 --> 00:14:01.046 I thought it was very important that the company stayed inside, 00:14:01.426 --> 00:14:03.206 in our case, in North Northam, Australia. 00:14:04.206 --> 00:14:12.806 And mostly it was bought by American or Indian companies, but they used it to 00:14:12.806 --> 00:14:16.366 have a step, a foot down in Germany. 00:14:16.366 --> 00:14:23.126 And therefore the company stayed in Germany because they used the whole business 00:14:23.126 --> 00:14:25.766 inside Germany and the company stayed there. 00:14:25.966 --> 00:14:30.186 And that was, I think, and they took all the employees and so on and so on. 00:14:30.486 --> 00:14:39.426 I was only once involved in a company in Heidelberg, and they sold the asset 00:14:39.426 --> 00:14:41.386 and the company was closed down. 00:14:41.646 --> 00:14:44.946 I had no influence on that, but that can happen. 00:14:45.126 --> 00:14:48.266 It happens in many cases but only 00:14:48.266 --> 00:14:52.666 in one case when I was involved it is 00:14:52.666 --> 00:14:55.786 not what I like to have mm-hmm yeah 00:14:55.786 --> 00:15:05.746 and you have seen biotech startups in Germany from the mid 1980s to the mid 00:15:05.746 --> 00:15:13.626 2020s that is quite some time what what did you learn over time about this this market. 00:15:16.086 --> 00:15:23.566 Yeah, what did I learn? What came out from my observations, I have to say, yeah. 00:15:24.226 --> 00:15:30.166 But I think it is a little bit trivial that it is enormous, diverse. 00:15:30.166 --> 00:15:40.426 Of course, some companies which are really flourishing, and for example, Biontech, yeah. 00:15:40.726 --> 00:15:43.166 I followed the story of Biontech. 00:15:44.846 --> 00:15:50.606 It's bigger than KIAGEN today. Whether it stays that way is another matter, but they really, 00:15:50.906 --> 00:15:57.806 because the epidemic is over, but the people have such a competence that they 00:15:57.806 --> 00:16:02.566 will have a very good company also in the future. 00:16:03.794 --> 00:16:13.274 Yeah, but otherwise, that was a typical company built on an epidemy, yeah? 00:16:14.034 --> 00:16:18.574 But they knew from the beginning there was an epidemy, and we have to go with 00:16:18.574 --> 00:16:27.534 100% and all our activity, and together with an American company, 00:16:27.794 --> 00:16:30.474 Pfizer, in that time, that was important. 00:16:30.474 --> 00:16:32.954 They know how to do it. They knew how to do it. 00:16:33.614 --> 00:16:37.674 Whereas CureVac in Germany was earlier, but made some mistakes. 00:16:37.954 --> 00:16:42.034 But that is not my business to judge on that. 00:16:43.674 --> 00:16:52.374 And so I followed companies. For example, then EvoTech was more or less an outspin 00:16:52.374 --> 00:16:57.734 from Kyagen, together with Manfred Eigen from Göttingen. 00:16:57.734 --> 00:17:04.134 And then developed also very well, but hadn't pushed down last year, 00:17:04.214 --> 00:17:08.854 which was from a personal problem, but it will recover. 00:17:09.834 --> 00:17:15.634 And then DiRevo, DiRevo was an outspinner of Evotech. I was in the board of DiRevo. 00:17:15.734 --> 00:17:19.274 It was sold to Bayer on the other side of the street, I have to say. 00:17:20.374 --> 00:17:24.134 Taking over 120 employees from the company. 00:17:24.134 --> 00:17:32.874 So it was very successful, but there were also companies where we had to realize that, 00:17:33.514 --> 00:17:40.634 technology did not work as we hoped that it would work. 00:17:41.234 --> 00:17:46.914 So what have we do? So probably sometimes one has to close down the company 00:17:46.914 --> 00:17:52.994 and as a stockholder or a stakeholder. 00:17:55.934 --> 00:18:00.174 We have to say we never let the company go bankrupt. 00:18:01.247 --> 00:18:10.687 We said then we closed the company, not insolvent, but how do you call it? 00:18:11.367 --> 00:18:14.427 Liquidate. Liquidate. We had to liquidate the company. 00:18:14.967 --> 00:18:20.267 But sometimes we as a stockholder had to pay the debt, to pay the debts. 00:18:20.847 --> 00:18:28.847 And then we could liquidate. But the founders did not have an insolvency. 00:18:28.847 --> 00:18:32.607 Yeah, so I think that we've always found important. 00:18:33.787 --> 00:18:37.507 And therefore, then you build up a reputation, yeah? 00:18:38.007 --> 00:18:42.627 And if you build up the reputation that you invest in a company and if it doesn't 00:18:42.627 --> 00:18:45.187 work, then it is insolvent, bankrupt. 00:18:45.587 --> 00:18:51.447 That is not a good reputation. We said, if it doesn't work, we think that it 00:18:51.447 --> 00:18:59.167 has to finish in a good way for the inventors and for the startup people. Yeah. 00:18:59.767 --> 00:19:07.387 So this is a little bit experience, very different experiences, but we had good exits. 00:19:07.887 --> 00:19:11.667 We had smaller exits, but still exits. 00:19:11.947 --> 00:19:21.447 And we had really liquidations, yeah, which went pretty smoothly. And that is important. 00:19:21.987 --> 00:19:29.107 Yeah. People could do then other things. So, fortunately. 00:19:30.467 --> 00:19:38.067 The successful exits were mainly successful exits. 00:19:39.120 --> 00:19:43.980 Yeah. Otherwise, it would not have been much fun. Yeah. 00:19:46.020 --> 00:19:49.900 I see. And of course, investment should also be some fun. 00:19:51.100 --> 00:19:55.240 We are now moving a little bit into entrepreneurship and biotech. 00:19:55.780 --> 00:19:59.720 For all the entrepreneurs and researchers tuning in, what do you think is the 00:19:59.720 --> 00:20:02.740 biggest challenge when transforming from academia to business? 00:20:02.740 --> 00:20:10.320 Let us know in the comments or tag somebody who might have an interesting take on this down here. 00:20:10.900 --> 00:20:17.180 You see, in Germany, the situation today is officially much more difficult than 00:20:17.180 --> 00:20:22.000 in our time, because I talked already about the Arbeitnehmer-Effindergesetz. 00:20:23.040 --> 00:20:27.700 Today, an invention you have in your institute, it belongs to the university. 00:20:28.880 --> 00:20:35.000 At the university then you have to deal with the university what to do with 00:20:35.000 --> 00:20:41.900 it and my advice is completely clear it is simple and clear. 00:20:43.520 --> 00:20:49.940 That the university gives all the know-how all the patents to the people who 00:20:49.940 --> 00:20:54.880 haven't started up and the university gets shares in the company that means 00:20:54.880 --> 00:21:01.640 they do not get money now but they get probably much more money when the company is successful, yeah. 00:21:02.760 --> 00:21:08.100 And for example, with Skyagen, we were not obliged to do it, 00:21:08.400 --> 00:21:15.580 but we said, okay, we were not obliged, but we took the know-how from the university. 00:21:15.580 --> 00:21:18.740 We have to give back to the university, yeah. 00:21:19.560 --> 00:21:25.760 And we gave back more than 20 million, the University Düsseldorf, 00:21:25.880 --> 00:21:32.800 yeah. And the final gift was a research laboratory, which was newly built. 00:21:33.574 --> 00:21:40.134 And so I think we had our own Arbeitnehmer-Erfinder-Gesetz, 00:21:40.374 --> 00:21:47.394 but completely free, and it worked much better than the official Arbeitnehmer-Erfinder-Gesetz, 00:21:47.474 --> 00:21:49.714 and today I'm really fighting for it, 00:21:49.914 --> 00:21:57.894 that the university or even more critical are the governmental research institutes 00:21:57.894 --> 00:22:00.654 like Helmholtz, Fraunhofer. 00:22:00.654 --> 00:22:07.234 They think they have to earn money when there's a startup to get money from 00:22:07.234 --> 00:22:09.954 the people who have the startup, even if they don't have money. 00:22:10.894 --> 00:22:12.674 Instead of saying, okay, we 00:22:12.674 --> 00:22:17.634 have shares, and if the company gets successful, then we earn the money. 00:22:18.654 --> 00:22:27.434 I think it's called the Darmstädter model, but we had it in Düsseldorf already, I think, 12 years ago. 00:22:28.814 --> 00:22:37.354 I think you could call it something like IP for equity. 00:22:38.274 --> 00:22:45.094 Yeah, IP, yeah, right. You can call it right that way, IP for equity, but that is important. 00:22:45.254 --> 00:22:48.874 The equity is equity without voting rights. 00:22:49.754 --> 00:22:56.294 Because if you have the university, which probably can vote for a company's 00:22:56.294 --> 00:22:57.514 decision, that is terrible. 00:23:00.014 --> 00:23:04.954 Equity without voting rights, because the university does not know how to vote there. 00:23:05.994 --> 00:23:09.374 They might have specialists, but normally not. 00:23:11.314 --> 00:23:19.134 And that is something we did now with Priya Void, but long discussions with 00:23:19.134 --> 00:23:23.114 the research center in Jülich, with Düsseldorf, it was much easier. 00:23:24.534 --> 00:23:30.214 Normally it's easier with the universities than the governmental research institutes. 00:23:32.827 --> 00:23:41.827 Also, they are really obliged to support startups, but what they are doing, they hinder it. 00:23:42.627 --> 00:23:45.487 And I hope they will learn in the near future. 00:23:46.387 --> 00:23:53.087 They basically have to learn. I had a few questions in this section of the interview, 00:23:53.187 --> 00:23:58.867 but basically you already went through all the answers that I would have asked from you. 00:23:58.987 --> 00:24:04.427 So let's go into another short ad break and then we get on to your decision 00:24:04.427 --> 00:24:06.207 retiring from active roles. 00:24:13.527 --> 00:24:20.727 As the head of the supervisory board of Kayagen, how did you ensure a smooth 00:24:20.727 --> 00:24:24.407 transition of leadership when stepping back from your role? 00:24:25.627 --> 00:24:34.047 Yeah, I think that is important often because Kayagen is a technology company 00:24:34.047 --> 00:24:41.527 and I think I've felt always pretty well as a chairman of the board because I knew the technology. 00:24:42.757 --> 00:24:48.257 But I did not know all the finances. And when I had a question on the finances, 00:24:49.097 --> 00:24:56.637 which probably I thought the CEO has another opinion than I feel, 00:24:57.097 --> 00:25:03.917 then I asked my colleague in the board about that problem, who knew about the finances. 00:25:05.017 --> 00:25:11.237 Exactly when I had a question about selling, what type of selling have you to 00:25:11.237 --> 00:25:15.457 support me? There was a guy who was a specialist in selling. 00:25:15.897 --> 00:25:22.917 So as a chairman of the supervisory board, you have a lot of obligation and 00:25:22.917 --> 00:25:27.877 responsibility, and you cannot answer it always by yourself. 00:25:27.937 --> 00:25:30.357 You have again to work as a team. 00:25:30.737 --> 00:25:35.477 That is the point, yeah? And if you think you have to answer everything yourself, 00:25:35.677 --> 00:25:36.997 you make too many mistakes. 00:25:37.477 --> 00:25:41.697 Of course, I had very close connection to the CEO of the company. 00:25:42.037 --> 00:25:44.197 We met every week or so, yeah. 00:25:44.977 --> 00:25:50.897 And before the board meetings, we met very intensively and discussed all the questions. 00:25:51.397 --> 00:25:58.817 But that does not mean that I did not depend upon the specialists in the board on special questions. 00:26:00.117 --> 00:26:04.337 I think bottom line is always ask the specialists if you know them. 00:26:05.017 --> 00:26:09.637 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And you have to have a board with specialists. 00:26:09.637 --> 00:26:13.157 Even you can ask other people but the 00:26:13.157 --> 00:26:16.377 specialists have to be in the board because they know the company otherwise 00:26:16.377 --> 00:26:19.417 i was wondering when you there was 00:26:19.417 --> 00:26:25.897 a time when you retired from the key again board and you retired from your position 00:26:25.897 --> 00:26:33.517 at the university um how how did your focus shift since and what interests did 00:26:33.517 --> 00:26:38.097 you develop how did your life change in that time do you have any recommendations. 00:26:39.457 --> 00:26:42.177 Yeah, my recommendation is, 00:26:43.081 --> 00:26:50.701 Stay active. I said always, of course, I earned a lot of money. Everybody knows that. 00:26:51.221 --> 00:26:58.801 And I could have stayed in probably in Mallorca and put my belly in the sun. 00:27:00.341 --> 00:27:06.181 But I said always, I felt so sorry for the sun to look at that, 00:27:06.281 --> 00:27:08.241 therefore I could not do it. 00:27:08.921 --> 00:27:20.761 That is the reason. But more seriously, I could put more time and effort in 00:27:20.761 --> 00:27:23.421 the other companies where I was involved. 00:27:23.421 --> 00:27:31.461 And for example even in the companies now the successor of my chair. 00:27:32.501 --> 00:27:36.041 Dieter Wilbold and they took over 00:27:36.041 --> 00:27:43.601 the mentality when you have a good idea set up a company and he did very good 00:27:43.601 --> 00:27:50.061 science in Alzheimer and Alzheimer is now a scientific development from the 00:27:50.061 --> 00:27:53.461 prions further development for the prions So, 00:27:53.561 --> 00:27:55.761 we had a lot of scientific contact. 00:27:56.661 --> 00:28:00.941 And when he started the company, I helped him as much as I can. 00:28:01.121 --> 00:28:08.241 I gave him the first money, and I solved the problem with the wrong CEO in the company, 00:28:08.601 --> 00:28:18.201 and we bought the patents from the research institute that patents have to belong 00:28:18.201 --> 00:28:20.261 to the company, otherwise you don't get money. 00:28:20.261 --> 00:28:25.421 So I got very much involved in that, and then I got involved, 00:28:25.781 --> 00:28:34.301 similar to that, in a diagnostic company for Alzheimer's and other neurodegenerative diseases. 00:28:36.741 --> 00:28:42.481 And there were other sides. So I really was a little bit... 00:28:42.481 --> 00:28:48.041 I was asking, of course, a lot to be with our company. I said, 00:28:48.341 --> 00:28:54.921 only that I have to learn, only the company that understands the science 100%. 00:28:55.761 --> 00:29:00.161 I was asked, oh, you see, we have a very good company for cancer. 00:29:00.161 --> 00:29:06.001 I think I believe that you have a good company for cancer, but I don't understand 00:29:06.001 --> 00:29:07.501 sufficient from cancer. 00:29:08.561 --> 00:29:11.381 Therefore, I will not go into your company. 00:29:12.461 --> 00:29:16.561 And so on. That is my involvement. 00:29:17.621 --> 00:29:23.421 Actually, I'm now in Tübingen involved in a cancer company, but they could explain 00:29:23.421 --> 00:29:27.201 that very well to me, and they had funds from the other side. 00:29:28.041 --> 00:29:31.681 And the funding agency, do you know the Sprint Agency? 00:29:33.152 --> 00:29:38.172 Yeah it's a it's a governmental agency yeah and sprint is. 00:29:41.132 --> 00:29:46.672 Gives a lot of money to the priya void that is a company of my successor will 00:29:46.672 --> 00:29:54.272 did a billboard and now he's in phase two with alzheimer with a very good compound for alzheimer, 00:29:55.152 --> 00:30:01.672 and then they said okay we will also uh give money to the tubing company company, 00:30:02.432 --> 00:30:08.732 but they need a little bit of experience, the strategic experience in a startup. 00:30:09.132 --> 00:30:13.512 Would you not like to be involved a little bit in that?" And I met with the 00:30:13.512 --> 00:30:18.052 people and I said, these people are okay, that is interesting to work with them. 00:30:18.772 --> 00:30:24.392 Also, it's not really my field, but if the people are good enough, I can trust them. 00:30:25.312 --> 00:30:32.432 And so I made the change from chair of Chiagen, 00:30:33.092 --> 00:30:40.792 chair of biophysics, but I still have my office in the university and I was 00:30:40.792 --> 00:30:43.512 even in the board of trustees of the university, 00:30:43.772 --> 00:30:46.672 this were running also so 00:30:46.672 --> 00:30:54.512 I'm going back from official obligations to more informal interest and obligations 00:30:54.512 --> 00:31:02.412 in smaller companies and try if the company has an exit fine and I have not 00:31:02.412 --> 00:31:06.532 replaced every exit with a new company so I will use that. 00:31:08.832 --> 00:31:16.132 Let us go into the last section the last three questions your current perspective and future outlook. 00:31:17.772 --> 00:31:25.472 How do you see the role of artificial intelligence and machine learning in biotech 00:31:25.472 --> 00:31:26.452 research and development? 00:31:27.796 --> 00:31:33.316 Yeah, we did that before we knew about the name. We, or better the colleagues 00:31:33.316 --> 00:31:34.876 with whom I worked, of course. 00:31:35.496 --> 00:31:43.776 In the 70s, there were the best programs with the best data to calculate the structure of. 00:31:47.036 --> 00:31:58.356 In the same way, we used the best programs and a lot of data to calculate the 00:31:58.356 --> 00:32:04.956 structure of RNA folding and refolding during the biological activity. 00:32:04.956 --> 00:32:09.756 There was, of course, KI at that time. 00:32:10.116 --> 00:32:14.476 But in the meantime, the machines got 100 times faster. 00:32:14.956 --> 00:32:19.376 The data extended by a factor of 100. 00:32:19.876 --> 00:32:22.536 And then we call it KI. 00:32:24.316 --> 00:32:29.836 AI, artificial intelligence, yes. So the artificial intelligence was already there. 00:32:29.996 --> 00:32:34.156 But now it has much more impact because the machines are better. 00:32:34.156 --> 00:32:43.996 The data are much extended, and so new relationships can be found by artificial intelligence, 00:32:44.296 --> 00:32:49.296 which could not be found before because it would have taken years. 00:32:49.856 --> 00:32:56.796 Therefore, in my mind, artificial intelligence is not something very new. 00:32:56.996 --> 00:33:02.976 It is a systematic development from earlier intentions. 00:33:04.536 --> 00:33:12.276 And of course we use it in everything where structure or metabolic pathways 00:33:12.276 --> 00:33:16.536 and those things, complicated things, have to be described. 00:33:18.083 --> 00:33:25.143 They are especially good if it goes really really complex yeah um what are your 00:33:25.143 --> 00:33:32.503 thoughts on introducing interdisciplinary collaboration in driving innovations. 00:33:34.203 --> 00:33:41.803 Now yeah i always have to go back to kai agent yeah i am the i was a physicist, 00:33:42.783 --> 00:33:47.783 My co-workers, one was a chemist, the other one was a microbiologist, 00:33:47.943 --> 00:33:49.823 and the third one was a biochemist. 00:33:50.343 --> 00:33:57.323 So, and the four of us, every different field, collaborated and set up gyogen, 00:33:57.523 --> 00:34:00.883 and we had to complement each other by our knowledge. 00:34:01.903 --> 00:34:06.763 As a physicist, I have to go, of course, very often to the biochemist and have 00:34:06.763 --> 00:34:11.863 to ask him what happens here, what happens there, or to the microbiologist and chemist, yeah. 00:34:12.763 --> 00:34:17.903 So interdisciplinary collaboration is very important. 00:34:18.163 --> 00:34:22.243 So I don't know what we would have done without it. 00:34:23.063 --> 00:34:24.843 It was our experience, yeah. 00:34:25.943 --> 00:34:27.803 Okay, that's all I can say. 00:34:28.943 --> 00:34:34.903 Yes, and the last question, I think you already talked a lot about what you 00:34:34.903 --> 00:34:40.003 continue to influence the biotech sector what are your current projects or initiatives 00:34:40.003 --> 00:34:46.743 and what legacy do you hope to leap for future generations of scientists and entrepreneurs, 00:34:47.783 --> 00:34:58.563 yeah yeah that is of course a question for example the legacy the european legacy for. 00:35:01.563 --> 00:35:04.523 Plant molecular was terrible, 00:35:06.523 --> 00:35:11.163 genetically engineered plants were more or less forbidden in Europe, 00:35:12.103 --> 00:35:20.103 unfortunately this is now liberated but that is one point that the legacy has 00:35:20.103 --> 00:35:28.463 to be quite liberal it has to be watched whether their dangers can appear but for example why went, 00:35:28.623 --> 00:35:30.443 that is my, 00:35:30.623 --> 00:35:33.443 I did not speak to the people, but this is my suspicion, 00:35:34.143 --> 00:35:41.183 why went Biontech with research to Britain, yeah, because the legacy is more 00:35:41.183 --> 00:35:43.183 liberal, the admissions, 00:35:43.983 --> 00:35:51.343 the legal authority works faster, and I think the fiscal improvement, 00:35:51.583 --> 00:35:56.183 the fiscal support is better yeah and these are three points, 00:35:57.083 --> 00:36:02.403 which Germany it's one we have to work on in Germany that it gets better and 00:36:02.403 --> 00:36:07.503 that a company has not to go with particular parts of the company to Britain 00:36:07.503 --> 00:36:11.903 also KIAGEN has a research laboratory in Britain yeah. 00:36:13.243 --> 00:36:14.783 Completely clear I think, 00:36:15.841 --> 00:36:25.061 There is still a lot of do and how, we discussed it earlier, 00:36:25.801 --> 00:36:29.581 IP know-how for shares or IP for shares. 00:36:29.581 --> 00:36:36.861 This system is really to be fixed for universities and governmental institutes, 00:36:36.941 --> 00:36:42.221 and I think the Sprint is working on that, 00:36:42.481 --> 00:36:49.541 and there is a Darmstädter model who proposed that. 00:36:49.761 --> 00:36:56.201 This is the right direction, but it is not clear in all heads of these institutes. Yeah. 00:36:58.801 --> 00:37:08.901 And the heads might be, but in the lower parts of the administration, that is not just to see. 00:37:09.061 --> 00:37:15.121 And for example, there is one problem, what we call in Germany, the night factor. 00:37:15.861 --> 00:37:20.041 You know what the night factor is? Yeah, jealousy factor. Yeah, 00:37:20.341 --> 00:37:28.161 there are really people who are suspicious, oh, they will earn a lot of money 00:37:28.161 --> 00:37:30.401 and take this money from our university. 00:37:30.661 --> 00:37:34.081 That is not the case. They have to work like hell for it. 00:37:34.501 --> 00:37:39.941 And they will really improve the university when they are successful, 00:37:40.141 --> 00:37:45.181 the reputation of the university, and give better chances to more younger people. 00:37:45.741 --> 00:37:48.561 And therefore, this has to be in the mind of the 00:37:48.561 --> 00:37:51.781 administration of these people to help 00:37:51.781 --> 00:37:55.001 and not to ask money from people 00:37:55.001 --> 00:37:57.941 who don't have the money and this happened in 00:37:57.941 --> 00:38:04.041 the past that are actually very good closing words we've covered a lot of crown 00:38:04.041 --> 00:38:08.921 today but i know there's always more to explore what's your biggest takeaway 00:38:08.921 --> 00:38:14.301 from your from today's conversation share your insights with us let us know 00:38:14.301 --> 00:38:17.201 keep the discussion going down here in the show notes. 00:38:17.581 --> 00:38:21.721 Professor Riesner, thank you very much for taking so much time answering all 00:38:21.721 --> 00:38:24.341 my questions. It was a pleasure having you as a guest. 00:38:25.081 --> 00:38:31.061 Thank you very much. I enjoyed also this discussion, I have to say. Yeah, I enjoyed it. 00:38:31.701 --> 00:38:33.781 Thank you very much. Bye-bye. 00:38:37.360 --> 00:38:42.640 Music. 00:38:38.541 --> 00:38:48.101 That's all folks. Find more news, streams, events, and interviews at www.startuprad.io. 00:38:48.461 --> 00:38:50.621 Remember, sharing is caring. 00:38:51.440 --> 00:39:04.170 Music.