Latest / The Trauma Therapist / Guest Host: Jamie Marich, PhD interviews Janja Lalich, PhD. Cults and Complex Trauma

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Guest Host: Jamie Marich, PhD interviews Janja Lalich, PhD. Cults and Complex Trauma · The Trauma Therapist

• 0:04
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the special guest host series of The Trauma
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Therapist Podcast, where I'm going to be handing over the
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: mic to some incredible guest hosts. In each episode, you'll
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: hear fresh perspectives and unique insights to inform and inspire
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: you in all the while keeping the heart of this
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: podcast alive. So sit back and enjoy.
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: So hello everyone, and welcome to the Trauma Therapist Podcast
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: Guest interview series. I'm doctor Jamie Merritch. I'm a frequent
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: guest on the podcast, and thanks to guy for extending
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: this invitation to interview somebody who I really admire and
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  Speaker 2: respect and I want more therapists to hear from. So
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  Speaker 2: our guest today is doctor Yanya Lalich. I jokingly say,
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: if you've ever seen a cult documentary on one of
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: the streaming services, you've probably seen Yanya interviewed. And I
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  Speaker 2: respect and like her work very much. So welcome Youanya.
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: Thanks for being here.
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  Speaker 3: Oh thanks for having me, Jamie.
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  Speaker 2: So tell us a little bit about how you got
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  Speaker 2: into working with cults and I should say called survivors.
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  Speaker 4: Well, I myself was in a cult in the seventies
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  Speaker 4: and eighties. It was a left wing political cult. And
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  Speaker 4: I was thirty when I joined, so I wasn't a kid.
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  Speaker 4: I'd lived in Europe, I had a bachelor's from Wisconsin,
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  Speaker 4: I had a full bright fellowship. I mean, I was
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  Speaker 4: not like a naive kid. So I was in that
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  Speaker 4: group for about ten years. It was very controlling, pretty abusive.
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  Speaker 4: People were just decimated because all we basically all we
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  Speaker 4: did was sit around and criticize each other. Anyway, I
• 1:51
  Speaker 4: got out. I was about forty years old when I
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  Speaker 4: got out in the mid eighties, and long story short,
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  Speaker 4: I finally found some work that helped me, and I
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  Speaker 4: finally found a therapist that helped me. It was difficult
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  Speaker 4: because at the time people thought there were only religious
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  Speaker 4: cults and no one had even heard of a political cult.
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  Speaker 4: So and then it was very difficult to find therapists obviously. Anyway,
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  Speaker 4: I was lucky. I found a person who saved my life.
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  Speaker 4: I say, because I was in leadership in the called
• 2:26
  Speaker 4: top leadership inner circle, and I did a lot of
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  Speaker 4: really shitty things to people. And so when I got out,
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  Speaker 4: I was just depressed and trying to figure out how
• 2:37
  Speaker 4: did I become that person? Anyway, I eventually went to
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  Speaker 4: grad school, got my PhD. It took me about ten
• 2:45
  Speaker 4: years to make that decision, and then I taught sociology
• 2:49
  Speaker 4: for twenty years at one of the California State universities.
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  Speaker 4: But all that time I was working with survivors, working
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  Speaker 4: with families. I've written I think six books. The first
• 3:02
  Speaker 4: one came out in nineteen ninety four, and now I'm
• 3:07
  Speaker 4: almost eighty and I'm thinking maybe I can retire one
• 3:10
  Speaker 4: of these days when the world needs you most.
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  Speaker 3: Right now, let's see, Well, let's step.
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  Speaker 2: Back because even in your answer, you brought up a
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  Speaker 2: good point about definitions. As you said, a lot of
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  Speaker 2: people had heard of religious cults, but not a political cult.
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  Speaker 2: So let's start with just the basic one, oh one
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  Speaker 2: of how you doctor Lolich define a cult.
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  Speaker 4: Okay, So for me, a cult has to have certain characteristics,
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  Speaker 4: and it can be a group or a social movement
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  Speaker 4: that is basically completely enamored with a leader and has
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  Speaker 4: I guess we could call blind obedience. So first of all,
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  Speaker 4: you have the charismatic leader who is authoritarian, and that
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  Speaker 4: person offers a what I call a transcendent belief system,
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  Speaker 4: which is a belief system learn ideology that promises you
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  Speaker 4: everything and explains the past, the present, and the future.
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  Speaker 4: And within that ideology is the requirement that you have
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  Speaker 4: to go through a change in order to be on
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  Speaker 4: the path with this particular leader. And that's where the indoctrination,
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  Speaker 4: I'm sorry, the indoctrination comes in. And then basically each
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  Speaker 4: group will have control mechanisms and influence mechanisms. The control
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  Speaker 4: mechanisms are the obvious rules, regulations, what to where, where
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  Speaker 4: to live, and you know how many babies they have, whatever.
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  Speaker 4: Where The influence mechanisms I believe are far more effective
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  Speaker 4: and powerful because this is where the group is doing
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  Speaker 4: sort of psychological pressure on yourself and on your emotions,
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  Speaker 4: and so that's what really breaks you down as a person.
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  Speaker 4: So kind of a little bit of a long winded answer,
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  Speaker 4: but I think it's important that we are clear about
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  Speaker 4: the kind of close what I had to find as
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  Speaker 4: a closed system that I believe is a cult.
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  Speaker 2: So let's talk about the major genres here. We'll start
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  Speaker 2: with religious cults, since that's what you brought up first.
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  Speaker 2: Any unique things in religious cults.
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  Speaker 4: Well, I think the unique thing in religious cults, and
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  Speaker 4: you know, I get asked this a lot, like, what's
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  Speaker 4: the difference between a religious cult and just a regular religion.
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  Speaker 4: And the difference is in a religious cult, you're expected
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  Speaker 4: to worship this human being who is right in front
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  Speaker 4: of you, rather than worshiping some higher order, which is
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  Speaker 4: what a healthy, legitimate religion would have you doing.
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  Speaker 3: So you could be, you know.
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  Speaker 4: Worshiping God or a law or a tree or whatever
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  Speaker 4: it might be, but you're not being asked to give
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  Speaker 4: up your life to this person in front of you.
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  Speaker 4: And that's what would happen in a religious cult, and
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  Speaker 4: also a far greater intrusion into your life than again
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  Speaker 4: than a healthy religion. So for example, the Catholic Church,
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  Speaker 4: one of your favorites, I know is going to tell me,
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  Speaker 4: is going to say, you know, don't use contraception, But
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  Speaker 4: they're not in your bedroom at night checking up on.
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  Speaker 3: You if you're using contraception, whereas a cult is going
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  Speaker 3: to be doing that.
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  Speaker 4: They're going to have ways that they can intervene in
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  Speaker 4: your life.
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  Speaker 2: And I know I've asked you this in other forms before,
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  Speaker 2: we've talked about that word cult. Ish that somebody may
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  Speaker 2: not be in a system that fully meets those finite
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  Speaker 2: extreme definitions of a cult, but there might be some
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  Speaker 2: of the qualities of it in let's say the Catholic Church,
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  Speaker 2: the Evangelical movement, and that's what a lot of scholarship
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  Speaker 2: on spiritual abuse is about. But I digress. Let's go
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  Speaker 2: to the political cult, because it sounds like they can
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  Speaker 2: happen on both the left and the right way. So
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  Speaker 2: what's a political call. Well, a political.
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  Speaker 4: Cult, just like any other cult, is going to have
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  Speaker 4: an authoritarian leader of an extreme ideology, and again the
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  Speaker 4: ways that you're both controlled and influenced and completely indoctrinated
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  Speaker 4: to be a blind follower of that leader. And again,
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  Speaker 4: they can exist on either the right or the left.
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  Speaker 4: And I think what's going on today is a great example.
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  Speaker 4: I mean, I think we're seeing it the firsthand right now.
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  Speaker 4: And I think especially if we look at the rise
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  Speaker 4: of Christian nationalism, which is really what's had probably the
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  Speaker 4: greatest effect on our lives and on our government and
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  Speaker 4: on our state legislators these past years. And if people
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  Speaker 4: are interested, there's I think a wonderful book called The
• 7:50
  Speaker 4: Flag and the Cross, which we'll explain to you exactly
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  Speaker 4: this rise of Christian nationalism and what it is exactly.
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  Speaker 2: And I've seen in a lot of the scholarship and
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  Speaker 2: have experiences too. Is it true that the leader can
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  Speaker 2: be alive or dead?
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  Speaker 4: Yes, the leader, Yes, absolutely, the leader, the original leader
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  Speaker 4: can be alive or dead. And what happens is generally,
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  Speaker 4: if the leader dies, they either have set up some
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  Speaker 4: way that somebody is going to take over, or there
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  Speaker 4: may be some kind of internal struggle where somebody then
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  Speaker 4: becomes the leader. But many groups, the leader has died
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  Speaker 4: and the group doesn't fall apart, you know, they keep
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  Speaker 4: on going. And so you can take for example, the
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  Speaker 4: Jehovah's Witnesses, where the original guy died years ago, but
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  Speaker 4: now they have this group of elders who function in
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  Speaker 4: that same way, and they have what we might call
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  Speaker 4: charisma by proxy.
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  Speaker 2: Got it? And so in your books you talk about
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  Speaker 2: the psychotherapy call let's hear about that as a genre.
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  Speaker 4: Well, psychotherapy cults and god knows have been around for
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  Speaker 4: a long time.
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  Speaker 3: It's usually a.
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  Speaker 4: Therapist who form some kind of group with his or
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  Speaker 4: her patients and starts to intervene in their lives and
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  Speaker 4: take over their lives and be completely inappropriate according to
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  Speaker 4: the ethics that therapists should be following. And so there
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  Speaker 4: have been some you know, quite well known ones over
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  Speaker 4: the years, and I have to and I'd say they
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  Speaker 4: are probably many more than we even know about because
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  Speaker 4: they're often going to be small and just somewhere. I
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  Speaker 4: was teaching some courses a couple of years ago, online courses,
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  Speaker 4: and there would be about twenty twenty five people in
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  Speaker 4: each course. These were, you know, virtual, and I was
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  Speaker 4: actually shocked at how many people came out of therapeutic
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  Speaker 4: cultic experiences.
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  Speaker 2: And since you talked about small, I've also wanted to
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  Speaker 2: clarify this term that can get used, the cult of
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  Speaker 2: too or family as the cult like help us understand
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  Speaker 2: that phenomenon.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, that's another important one. And another one that's
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  Speaker 4: that probably goes under the radar a lot what I
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  Speaker 4: sometimes call the no name cults. And actually my book
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  Speaker 4: that came out in ninety four was the first time
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  Speaker 4: anyone even ever wrote about these one on one or
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  Speaker 4: family cults. I think over the years we've seen many
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  Speaker 4: examples of those where there are either a father or
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  Speaker 4: parents who are you know, extreme narcissists and completely controlling
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  Speaker 4: the children. In many cases they adopt children so that
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  Speaker 4: they can control them. And then there are actually couples
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  Speaker 4: that can function as a cult. And you know, there
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  Speaker 4: was a case of years ago of what's his name
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  Speaker 4: Steinberg and his wife.
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  Speaker 3: They were in New York. It's probably before your time.
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  Speaker 4: I think you're a bit younger than me, but I
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  Speaker 4: think that they were the first example I think of
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  Speaker 4: a of a one on one cult where he had
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  Speaker 4: completely controlled her, got her to quit her job, she
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  Speaker 4: couldn't leave the house, you know, he kept her from
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  Speaker 4: her family, she didn't see anybody anymore. He eventually killed
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  Speaker 4: the child, which is how then things got you know, revealed,
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  Speaker 4: but and went to prison, thank god.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, So shifting gears a bit. So you are not
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  Speaker 2: a therapist, you're a sociologist, but you have, like you said,
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  Speaker 2: sought out therapy. You've worked with therapists. So help me,
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  Speaker 2: as a therapist understand what would you most like therapists
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  Speaker 2: to know here in twenty twenty five about the cults
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  Speaker 2: in our midst as you say, and the skills and
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  Speaker 2: should be developing.
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  Speaker 4: Okay, so first of all, I think there's a giant
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  Speaker 4: need for therapists who can serve this population of people
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  Speaker 4: coming out of cult survivors, cult leavers, whatever you want
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  Speaker 4: to call them. I'll just give you an example of
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  Speaker 4: why a woman contacted me a few months ago who
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  Speaker 4: had spent fifteen years in a cult, a food truck
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  Speaker 4: cult of all things in the Midwest. Fifteen years, lost
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  Speaker 4: all her money, everything, family, everything. She got out, she
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  Speaker 4: found a therapist. She told her whole story to the
• 12:26
  Speaker 4: therapist about everything that had happened to her, and then
• 12:29
  Speaker 4: the therapist looked at her and said, well, why didn't
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  Speaker 4: you leave? You know, I'm like, wait a minute, that's
• 12:35
  Speaker 4: what we did twenty five years ago with domestic violence.
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  Speaker 3: Right.
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  Speaker 4: So important for therapists, I think is to first of all,
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  Speaker 4: know about complex PTSD and the work of Judith Hermann
• 12:49
  Speaker 4: who kind of originated that concept, and how CPTSD is
• 12:54
  Speaker 4: different from regular PTSD. And also, I think the really
• 12:59
  Speaker 4: important piece about moral injury because most almost everybody in
• 13:06
  Speaker 4: a cult, unless they're a child, becomes a perpetrator.
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  Speaker 3: You have to.
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  Speaker 4: It's the only way you can survive, you know. Just
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  Speaker 4: like I was saying, we had criticism sessions. If you
• 13:16
  Speaker 4: didn't participate, then you got criticized, right, So it's a
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  Speaker 4: survival mechanism. And so when people get out, their shame
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  Speaker 4: and guilt is probably the largest.
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  Speaker 3: Emotion and.
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  Speaker 4: Block that they're going to be feeling because of what
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  Speaker 4: they did while they were in a cult, either to
• 13:38
  Speaker 4: other people or of things that they saw happening that
• 13:41
  Speaker 4: they couldn't do anything about. And so I think for
• 13:45
  Speaker 4: therapists to understand about that is very important. And I
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  Speaker 4: think therapists need to be familiar with the different kinds
• 13:54
  Speaker 4: of cults. You know, there's the New Age cults, there's
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  Speaker 4: the yoga cults, there's the Eastern meditation cults, and you know,
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  Speaker 4: have some familiar familiarity and then you know, obviously I'm
• 14:08
  Speaker 4: going to plug my book, but my book take Back
• 14:10
  Speaker 4: Your Life is you know, is all about recovery, and
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  Speaker 4: I think every therapist should have that book, as well
• 14:18
  Speaker 4: as my other book, Escaping Utopia, which is right now
• 14:22
  Speaker 4: the only the only published work on children who grew
• 14:26
  Speaker 4: up in cults, because then that's a whole other issue
• 14:29
  Speaker 4: of the after effects for someone who was born and
• 14:33
  Speaker 4: raised in a cult is going to be somewhat different
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  Speaker 4: from say, someone like me who joined at age thirty.
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  Speaker 2: You bring up a good point though, when you introduced yourself,
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  Speaker 2: you mentioned that you were educated, there were a lot
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: of things you had going for you, and I think
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: one of the misnomers out there is people who joined
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: cults are dumb and.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, stupid, lazy, crazy, yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Mentally ill or whatnot. And so is there any susceptibilities
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  Speaker 2: that you have seen as a pattern or is it
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: really that anybody can be sucked in?
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  Speaker 3: Excuse me?
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  Speaker 4: I truly believe that anybody can be sucked in if
• 15:13
  Speaker 4: they come across a person or an invitation or something
• 15:17
  Speaker 4: at the right moment in their lives. And you know,
• 15:21
  Speaker 4: people get recruited into these organizations generally when they're in
• 15:25
  Speaker 4: a vulnerable place, you know. And vulnerability is not a disease.
• 15:30
  Speaker 4: It's something we all experience probably thousands of times in
• 15:34
  Speaker 4: our life, right. I mean, probably everybody's vulnerable right now
• 15:37
  Speaker 4: because of what's happening in our government.
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 15:40
  Speaker 4: All people are vulnerable if it's raining out, if their
• 15:43
  Speaker 4: dog just died, if they just graduated from college, they
• 15:45
  Speaker 4: just moved to a new town, et cetera, et cetera,
• 15:47
  Speaker 4: et cetera. Right, So, when you have that little bit
• 15:51
  Speaker 4: of unease happening, and somebody comes along and offers you something,
• 15:54
  Speaker 4: and then it looks really good and you think, okay,
• 15:57
  Speaker 4: this might help me, given what's happening to me right now.
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  Speaker 4: It's also important to remember that two thirds of cult
• 16:04
  Speaker 4: members are recruited by a friend, a family member, or
• 16:07
  Speaker 4: a co worker. Right, So it's someone you know who's
• 16:10
  Speaker 4: going to do that first invitation, right, Oh, come to
• 16:13
  Speaker 4: this thing with me and the guru is going to
• 16:15
  Speaker 4: rise up off the chair and you know, or come
• 16:18
  Speaker 4: to this self improvement seminar whatever it is. Right, It's
• 16:21
  Speaker 4: much harder to say no to someone you know. And third,
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  Speaker 4: I think it's important cults don't want stupid, lazy, crazy people.
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  Speaker 4: When you're in a cult, you're working for the cult.
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  Speaker 4: Labor trafficking is probably the most common thing that happens,
• 16:39
  Speaker 4: and so they want people who are going to run
• 16:41
  Speaker 4: the businesses, who are going to recruit more, people who
• 16:44
  Speaker 4: are going to have influence, be able to raise money,
• 16:48
  Speaker 4: you know, keep the leader happy. And so they have
• 16:51
  Speaker 4: to be a type personalities. And most cults, if somebody
• 16:55
  Speaker 4: ends up joining who isn't ship shaped like that, they're
• 16:59
  Speaker 4: going to get rid of that.
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  Speaker 3: We did that in my.
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  Speaker 4: Group, if you know, we just would tell somebody, oh,
• 17:03
  Speaker 4: this isn't quite right for you, you know, because they're
• 17:07
  Speaker 4: a burden. And cult leaders and cult leadership don't want burdens.
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  Speaker 4: They want people who are going to work twenty hours
• 17:14
  Speaker 4: a day and keep at it.
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: Those are all amazing points that you've highlighted, and I
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: know they're just a small fraction of what I've learned
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: from you and other cult scholars and deepening my understanding
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: on this. So help us understand where we can get
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: more knowledge, more training. Whether you've mentioned some of your books,
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: tell us about the College Center, if you would, and
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: some of what do and how people can access training
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: or resources there.
• 17:41
  Speaker 3: Sure.
• 17:42
  Speaker 4: So a few years ago I formed a nonprofit because
• 17:47
  Speaker 4: I realized I was getting old and I've been doing
• 17:50
  Speaker 4: this for almost forty years now, and I wanted to
• 17:53
  Speaker 4: make sure there was a legacy, and so I formed
• 17:56
  Speaker 4: a nonprofit so that I could have a way to
• 17:59
  Speaker 4: train people who can rise to the occasion and allow
• 18:05
  Speaker 4: me to retire at some point.
• 18:08
  Speaker 3: And then through through the.
• 18:09
  Speaker 4: Nonprofit, we offer various types of workshops and courses. Right now,
• 18:14
  Speaker 4: we have a music workshop happening, a music workshop for survivors,
• 18:19
  Speaker 4: which is led by a music therapist from New York
• 18:23
  Speaker 4: who primarily works with gang members. So it's a different
• 18:27
  Speaker 4: kind of recovery tool for survivors, because a lot of
• 18:33
  Speaker 4: a lot of people coming out of culture going to
• 18:34
  Speaker 4: be very wary about seeing a therapist, and so having
• 18:39
  Speaker 4: other ways art therapy, music therapy, et cetera, and being
• 18:43
  Speaker 4: kind of creative about what we offer these people. And
• 18:48
  Speaker 4: then through the College Center, we're going to be offering
• 18:52
  Speaker 4: hopefully this summer of course specifically designed for therapists. We've
• 18:59
  Speaker 4: gotten approval from the American Psychological Association to give CE
• 19:03
  Speaker 4: credits and it will be a home study webinars so
• 19:09
  Speaker 4: people can take it whenever they want. And I would
• 19:13
  Speaker 4: say probably the best thing is for people to get
• 19:17
  Speaker 4: on our mailing list by going to lolledgecenter dot org
• 19:22
  Speaker 4: and you can either sign up for the general mailing
• 19:24
  Speaker 4: list or just tell the admin person that you want
• 19:29
  Speaker 4: to be on the list for therapists, so that will
• 19:31
  Speaker 4: send you the announcement when the course is ready.
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: Great and doctor Lolige did a guest course with myself
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: my own company, Institute for Greater and Mindfulness last year.
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: We still have the replays of that available, but we're
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: hoping to reboot it at some point this year. And
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: I would just tell therapists keep educating yourself. There is
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: a lot of wonderful content out there and what you
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: can seat and access, you know, doctor Loledge makes a
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: lot of great resources available online. But if you have
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: a chance to to take a full course, this is
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: an issue that is not.
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: Going away for sure.
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: You know. I know a lot of people who listen
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: to this podcast are already pretty well finesked on PTSD
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: versus c PTSD. But I think a real key of
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: getting good with complex trauma is knowing the populations you're
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: working with and know why. You would never ask a
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: question like why didn't you just leave right because there's
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: there's there's a lot behind there.
• 20:31
  Speaker 4: And you know. I think the other issue, which is
• 20:34
  Speaker 4: going to be an individual decision is what do you
• 20:37
  Speaker 4: charge a former member client? Most former members is certainly
• 20:42
  Speaker 4: in the beginning aren't going to have insurance.
• 20:44
  Speaker 3: They may not even be working.
• 20:46
  Speaker 4: They've probably lost everything from being in the cult and
• 20:51
  Speaker 4: financially and so are you going to see that person
• 20:54
  Speaker 4: on a sliding scale? Is there some way you can
• 20:57
  Speaker 4: help them? You know, maybe maybe maybe see group and
• 21:01
  Speaker 4: have each one chip in twenty five dollars or something.
• 21:04
  Speaker 4: But the financial aspect, I think is something that is
• 21:08
  Speaker 4: important to look at.
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, good Pointsaul, Thank you for bringing that up. So again,
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: I want to thank doctor yan Ye Lalich for being
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: our guest interviewee today on the Trauma Therapist podcast.
• 21:20
  Speaker 3: Thanks for having me Jamie, it's great to see you again.