Latest / In These Times with Rabbi Ammi Hirsch / Ahmed Fouad Alkhatib

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Ahmed Fouad Alkhatib · In These Times with Rabbi Ammi Hirsch

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I'm Rabbi Ammi Hirsch of the Stephen Wise Free Synagogue in New York.
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And you're listening to In these times
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as I record this, the United States and Israel are at war with the Islamic
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Republic of Iran, an oppressive regime, and the sponsor of countless
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acts of terror around the world, including the October 7th attacks.
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But when this is over.
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The century old Israeli Palestinian conflict will remain.
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My guest today grew up in Gaza as a youth.
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During the second Intifada, he was injured by an Israeli airstrike, he's lost
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many friends and family members to war.
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Yet Ahmed Fouad Alkhatib refuses to succumb to the vicious cycle
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of hatred and violence as a senior fellow at the Atlantic Council and the
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founder of Realigned for Palestine.
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Ahmed is pursuing a different kind of pro-Palestinian advocacy,
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one that recognizes Palestinian agency and is committed to
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non-violence and radical pragmatism.
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Ahman fo, welcome to win these times.
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Thanks so much for talking to me.
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Appreciate it.
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And apropos in these times, uh, these times are so I very much appreciate
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you coming on because, uh, our audience for in these times doesn't normally
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hear directly from Palestinians.
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First of all, let me ask you, so, uh, the war in Iran, as we're
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recording it now, is in its third day.
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do you make of, uh, what's going on now and what do you make of the objectives
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that the Americans and the Israelis have?
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For me, I see the war in Iran or war with Iran, um, as.
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The continuation, if you will, of what began on October 7th.
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Uh, I mean, what Seir and Hamas did on that day in particular, and when I say
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Hamas, it's actually even more narrowly, the, the military wing of Hamas, the two
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psychopaths within Hamas, Seir, and Aldi.
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They very much so.
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Estimated that Gaza will be ground zero for the end of, uh, the normalization
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project, uh, between Saudi and, and Saudi Arabia and, and Israel, but that the
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Islamic Republic of Iran through this.
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Extensive network of the proxies we've heard about in this so-called axis of
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resistance, which be yeah, included, uh, Hezbollah in Lebanon, the Houthis
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in, in Yemen, Hamas in Gaza with other groups like Palestinian, Islamic Jihad.
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The state of Syria that was under the control of the Assad regime,
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uh, Shia militias and parts of the Iraqi state apparatus and the
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popular mobilization militias.
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And then you have the, the head of the snake itself, the Islamic
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Republic with it's arsenal of drones and cruise missiles and ballistic
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missiles and, and other capabilities.
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And so there was the belief that once you trigger.
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This cataclysmic event for which Israel was woefully unprepared and, and surprised
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that that would turn Gaza into ground zero for such a massive regional war
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that would usher in the beginning of the end of the state of Israel and.
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What we just saw over the weekend is the continuation now of arguably
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two and a half years of a gross miscalculation that has not only failed
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to produce the aforementioned results of, uh, uh, the plan that Hamas had
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had desired the way that the Islamic Republic of Iran had envisioned.
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Its proxies in these different Arab and Muslim countries protecting
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it from direct confrontation.
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That was the whole point of the proxies, was to actually protect the Islamic
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Republic from having a direct war with Israel, with the United States.
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Not only did that fail, but Gaza actually ended up being ground zero.
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For the beginning of the end of the so-called axis of resistance
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and has actually turned Israel into a regional superpower.
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Now, of course, that came with a whole host of pain, destruction,
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damage, um, Gaza's and ruins.
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Um, many parts of the Middle East are in ruins.
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There's a lot of risk, uh, and I'm certainly not saying
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this as if I'm cheering.
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For this outcome, I'm simply diagnosing.
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I'm simply speaking from an analytical point of view.
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So you think that actually by sunset of October 7th, the end, all roads
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at the end of the day had to lead, lead back to Tehran that what was
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triggered and launched on October 7th, inevitably, one way or the other
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was going to or at least lead to.
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What we're seeing now in these very days.
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Precisely that, and, and I have long been very clear that, um, there will never be
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peace between Palestinians and Israelis.
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There will never be a Palestinian state.
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There will never be any calm in Gaza and certainly in the West Bank, while
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the Islamic Republic of Iran continues to exist in its current shape and form.
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I'm not talking about the the nation of Iran.
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I'm not talking about the people of Iran.
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I'm simply talking about the regime.
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I'm talking about the apparatus that first 47 years has been in control of this
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incredible nation with an immense history.
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And the reason for that was, is because when it came to Israel,
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their ideology was simply
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I.
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It was irreversible.
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They wanted to destroy Israel.
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There was no.
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No negotiating with that, no compromising with that.
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And the ring of fire that they built around Israel through all their proxies
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was devoted specifically to that cause.
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And until the Republic of Iran was weakened and its proxies weakened
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or even eliminated, advance the Palestinian issue at all.
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that essentially what you're saying?
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Well there, it's multidimensional.
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So that's certainly the ideological component.
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That's a, that's a dimension of it, but I would argue that, um, there are other.
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More sinister and quite frankly, just more overly like, like over like, let's
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just overly simplify and say that, I mean, it was, it was a brilliant tactic
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to divert a lot of resources away from the Iranian people and toward the IRGC,
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the KDS force, the whole, the military industrial complex of Iran, which made
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immense successes in how they, so like there was an economic component to it.
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There was a PR component to it.
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There was a religious, there was a, a legitimacy component to it.
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I mean, Iran, unfortunately, or the Islamic Republic, simply looked to what
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the Arab countries had done for decades before it, and realized that at, you
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know, at some point, any desperate, any dictator, any failed state could just.
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Pledge to fight on behalf of the Palestinians, use the Palestinians,
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use the Palestinian issue to gain legitimacy and to suppress internal,
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uh, descent because we're doing it for the for, for, for Allah, for Jihad, for
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Jerusalem, for the Palestinian people.
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They, uh, made a lot of money off of this, and they were able to, I mean, Iran was
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able to basically occupy multiple Arab capitals and, and Arab countries, Iraq's.
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Syria, Lebanon, Gaza, the Yemen, they, they meddled in Saudi Arabia and
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Eastern Saudi Arabia where not only all the oil is, but where many much of
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the count of the population is Shia.
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They meddled in Bahrain.
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They, and this is all before the war.
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And I'll just close out by just saying that Hamas in Dao.
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Would not have been what it is, uh, over the last two decades without the support
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of the Islamic Republic of Iran with the tunnels, with the combined arms warfare,
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with the missiles, with the way that it carried out the October 7th attack.
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Similarly, many people don't understand or appreciate that it was the Islamic
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Republic of Iran that in the 1990s.
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Incited Hamas and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad against the viable yet fragile Oslo
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peace process directly giving them money, asking them to carry out those terror
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attacks and suicide bombings, but also.
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Helping form this radical block against any effort for a negotiated
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settlement with the state of Israel.
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So that's where I I, I think unfortunately, the Islamic Republic
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of Iran was always going to meddle in these Israeli Palestinian
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conflict with no end in sight.
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So it, it really is astonishing that the.
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most responsible for launching October 7th are all dead.
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Is dead.
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Deaf is dead.
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Nara is dead, Assad is gone.
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Is is dead.
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what they wanted to do happened exactly in reverse and it was
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collapsed on them actually.
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And it rendered Israel strategically, at least in a much stronger
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position than October 6th.
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Precisely, precisely the case.
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I mean, I think the way, I mean, and, and, and, and this is what's so
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frustrating with some of the, the.
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pro-Palestine voices that have emerged after October 7th and what they fail
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to appreciate in making some of those maximalist demands and, and, and pushing
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so hard at, at actually normalizing Hamas' rhetoric, normalizing October
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7th, celebrating the resistance narrative is that you threw all of
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your eggs in, in a losing basket.
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In a, in a, I mean, forget the morality.
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Component, which October 7th was a horrendous action that
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I think was, was despicable.
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And I'm, I'm part of why I speak out as someone from Gaza, as
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someone who has family there, who has lost family there, who has
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grievances with the state of Israel.
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But still is, is, is, is.
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And it just, without any qualifications or, or unconditionally opposed to
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the taken of women and children and the elderly as hostages.
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In addition to the morality argument that that October 7th was bad, it was such a
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strategic fiasco, and to not see that Gaza literally became ground zero for Israel.
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Expanding its reach and influence across, uh, borders of multiple nations.
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And Israel actually being in a position now where it's indirectly
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aligned with many more Arab countries because they face a similar um, enemy.
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So Hamas may have foiled Saudi Israeli overt normalization, but in reality.
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They actually ended up bringing and under the table at least, and that's
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how a lot of things happen in the Arab and Middle Eastern Muslim world.
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They actually ended up creating greater synergy between the state of Israel, uh,
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irrespective of how loathed Netanyahu and the far right government is the
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state of Israel and many Arab nations.
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So that's where I, I, I just think it's such a twist of fate and events.
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Um, and now to be clear, what is going to unfold?
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I mean, it remains to be seen what will unfold.
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In the Islamic Republic of Iran and how there could be an off ramp that
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President Trump pursues resulting in the maintenance of some aspects of the regime.
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But let there be no doubt that what remains of this regime, regardless of how
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the day after in Iran looks like, will be nothing like it was before this war.
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So moving on directly to the Palestinian and Israeli, uh, dispute.
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Can us.
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Broadly speaking from your perspective, the dispute has now been
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going on for well over a century.
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Fundamentally, what is it about?
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So I have thoughts and observations, but I'll start with the Palestinian side.
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I think on the Palestinian side you do have a sense among many that.
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There was that, that the way that the Zionist Project unfolded entailed inherent
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injustices, which the Palestinians are still dealing with and facing today.
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Now.
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One of the things that I have, and I've heard this narrative from my own
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grandparents who were pushed out in 1948 from my parents who grew up in refugee
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camps in Gaza, actual refugee camps, like tents in Gaza in the early 1950s, right.
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When I lived in Gaza, I, I experienced elements of that.
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My, my family.
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I mean, I have within me, like the, the, the battle scars, if you
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will, of during the second infa.
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I'm actually deaf from my left ear, from a bombing that killed two of my friends who
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were teenagers and, and almost killed me.
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And, and, and rendered me largely deaf in an asymmetric sense.
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Um, lost dozens of my immediate and extended family members in this war.
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It's like for the Palestinians.
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They feel that there has been a generational perpetuation
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of this injustice there,
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is the nature of the injustice from the Palestinian perspective?
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so.
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There are many Palestinian perspectives that now there's no singular
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Palestinian voice or narrative.
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And I actually, this is one thing that I always, um, try to preface and, and,
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and highlight that no one person or one narrative really speaks for the s 'cause.
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Palestinians in guys are different than Palestinians in the West Bank
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are different than Palestinians in East Jerusalem or different than.
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Palestinians in Syria, Lebanon, and Jordan, or those who remained in in
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the land and became citizens of Israel.
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So it's very key to actually, like, despite the portrayal of this
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universal Palestinian perspective, that doesn't, in my view exist.
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So it's two, it's two components.
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Number one is that it is unjust for the Jewish people to.
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Act upon an old claim of ancestry because it feels that only they, they
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being the Jewish people and Zionism have that special right and privilege
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to return to a homeland thousands of years after their displacement, when.
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Most of the world has experienced a whole host of displacement,
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genocides, conquests, and conquerors.
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So that's, that's injustice number one.
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And then there's the sense of injustice.
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Number two is that as the Declaration of Israel neared in 1948.
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There was the bringing of different refugees, uh, Jewish refugees from
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different parts of Europe whose refuge and safety came at the expense of
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the Palestinian people's ability to live in their ancestral homeland.
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And that persists today.
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Where Palestinians, for example, in the West Bank or what's known
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as by many as Judea and Samaria.
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Are being pushed out by settlers, but Jews from around the world have a right
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to make Aliyah when the Palestinians themselves are being pushed out.
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So those are the two core elements.
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I studied at the London School of Economics when I was a student.
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I was in my twenties.
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It was 40 some odd years ago, and I remember I had a professor, he was a world
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class international relations expert.
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And he said to me, he, he was lecturing and he said, you know, there are
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two insoluble problems in the world.
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This was in the 1980s, the Irish problem the Israeli-Palestinian problem.
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In the meantime, the Irish problem, it still has fits and starts,
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but essentially, it was solved.
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But the Israeli-Palestinian issue, uh, is not solved.
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And it looks to many people, like if anything, we're further away than ever.
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of what you just said, do you think it could be resolved, and if so, how?
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And what would the timetable of that be?
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Certainly so, so I have between.
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Learning, speaking to Palestinians who've been involved with this issue
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for a long time, doing research.
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I mean, I have filled in multiple gaps that I do sincerely wish are
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more prominently understood and recognized by my folks and my people
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and the Palestinian people to.
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Really get us out of this perpetual cycle that unfortunately has had us
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entrapped for generations, even as Israel grows stronger, bigger, more
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successful, and as time goes on, we lose more land, more options, more
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people, and many parts of the world are moving on from the Palestinian issue.
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Like I don't consider.
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A bunch of the incendiary pro Hamas protestors, or even like the initial
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wave of pro-Palestine protests following October 7th or in the early days of
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war, that that's inconsequential.
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Like I, I, I, I, I care about outcomes and results.
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So with that in mind, you look at the early history, then you look at.
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The pan-Arabism of Abd Nassar.
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We have the nationalism of the PLO.
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We have the Marxism and communism of the PFLP and democratic fronts
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and the Soviet supported groups.
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And then now we've had the Islamism of Hamas.
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I think you look at the, the, the, the, the missed opportunity, for example.
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Between 1948 to 1967, why wasn't a Palestinian state declared then?
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Why, what?
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When Jordan was in charge of the West Bank and Egypt was in charge of Gaza
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and we had East Jerusalem, why wasn't a even a provisional Palestinian state
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declared and established, and why establish the PLO in the sixties when
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again, we still had the territories like the both of these territories?
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And you look at what happened after the 73 Yom Kippur War and how
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Sadat in Egypt pivoted away from war and wanted to pursue peace.
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And like that could have been a significant opening for the Palestinians
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and for the Arabs to pragmatically.
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Look, I mean, Israel demonstrated a willingness to give up territories
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that it conquered for peace.
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Um.
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We could have had the 67 borders, uh, at that time.
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Then you do look at, at, at the 1990s, and I experienced the tail end of the 1990s.
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I flew into Gaza's short-lived airport in 1999 and in 2000, you imagine.
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I remember that.
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Palestinian Airlines.
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Can you imagine just uttering those words and in authority, passports
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instead of the Egyptian travel document and the elements of statehood.
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And yes, the Palestinian authority was corrupt to the bone, but still like
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there was hope and it's at beginning and you can slowly get somewhere.
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And that was sabotaged.
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By Hamas and by external interference.
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And not to mention the 2000 Camp David and how AFA didn't say yes, but didn't say no.
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He danced around the corner and then he was like, well, let me then do this.
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You know, the second in ADA thinking that he's gonna, you know,
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enhance his negotiating position.
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But it got out of control.
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And I've spoken to senior.
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PLO officials who told me point blank that the intention was not for the
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second ADA to get out of control.
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It was meant to be a very small thing for Arafat to claim that he's
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still the revolutionary 'cause people were calling him a traitor and.
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To try to like gain leverage in the negotiations and it got out of control
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and, and we lost the opportunity.
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Then you have the 2005 withdrawal of Israeli settlements in 2008.
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That was an opportunity to create what could have been a successful role
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model for Palestinian self-governance and what an occupation free West
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Bank can and should look like.
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So this is where I, without denying that Israel has had a
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significant role in, in my view, and.
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Injustices of the Palestinian people.
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I believe that within the imbalance of power dynamics between Palestinians and
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Israelis, with Israel being up here.
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There very much so exists plenty of space within this
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imbalance for Palestinian agency.
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Responsibility and accountability.
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Accountability to learn from our mistakes, to learn from history, to to, to, to
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ho, to, to acknowledge that October 7th was a choice, not a necessity.
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To acknowledge that there were choices that made for the disasters that we're in.
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Even as you want to criticize Israeli actions.
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So I share with you the frustration that it's one thing to have a
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legitimate grievance towards maybe historic or even contemporary.
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Like what's happening with the settler violence in the West Bank, I think is
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appalling and I think is despicable.
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And on the other hand.
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It's also another to just be perpetually caught in this, in this state of,
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of, of, of victimhood and, and of paralysis and learned helplessness,
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thinking that somebody else is going to come from the outside and save us.
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So do you think that in the foreseeable future there's a way to
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reach some kind of reconciliation, say within the next generation?
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Well, I'm gonna speak specifically about Gaza.
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Um, I'm a believer in a Gaza first approach because if we don't solve
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Gaza, there will never be anything meaningful happening on in this issue.
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Um, not in the West Bank, not on the broader conflict.
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If we don't address the, you know, for the past 20 years, more foreign and
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international aid was invested and spent in Gaza than anywhere else in the world.
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And look at where Gaza is.
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If we don't address the fact that even left-leaning Israelis who are against.
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Netanyahu and against the far right fascist in his government are afraid of
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pulling out of the West Bank because they don't wanna repeat of the Gaza situation.
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If we don't address Gaza being a success story, then I think we're gonna be
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in a perpetual state of stalemate.
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With that in mind, I've spoken to several senior Palestinian and US
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officials and Israeli officials.
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Who have said that every single day there are plots that they intercept fomented
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by the Islamic Republic of Iran to.
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Carry out attacks to create instability to cause the Palestinian authority
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to fully collapse because that's what the Islamic Republic wants.
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Gaza's decimated.
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So they're like, let's, let's see what we can do.
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And, and, and the goal is to elicit an overwhelming Israeli military
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counterstrike or attack on Palestinians in the West Bank, and hoping that
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that will keep Israel busy and destabilize Israel from within.
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Um.
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In the context of the last two and a half years after the consequences of
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October 7th, due to the totality of the failures of the last 20 years by
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Hamas and, and their behavior during the war and their fascism and violence
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and, and the Islamism rotten ideology.
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I am actually hopeful that there are voices in Gaza who are ready for
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something else, something different.
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That's why I'm putting myself out there as much as short term.
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I'm pessimistic about, uh, many subjects related to the Israel Heim conflict.
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I am very, extremely hopeful that the people of Gaza will actually, uh,
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have already, even if we don't have.
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Credible media that can capture the sentiments of the people of Gaza.
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My family, I have a brother there.
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I've an army of context.
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10 years ago I tried to build an internationally run Israeli
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approved airfield in there.
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I've done humanitarian projects on the ground in there.
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It's like I have a very good sense of what a diverse segment of the population.
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I speak to former Hamas folks and Hamas defectors.
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Who during this war were like, this has been a terrible dream.
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Like, what have I been a part of?
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And these are lawyers, teachers, doctors, nurses, engineers, NGO, professionals,
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administrators, bureaucrats, technocrats.
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These are people across segments of society.
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These are construction workers.
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These are garbage workers.
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These are society, these are every, every segment of society.
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And there are people that you and I, or most people wouldn't know their names.
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They're, they're as average as, as it gets.
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There are people that if they're given a chance to rise up and be part of a
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new generation and given actual safety and security so that they're not
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persecuted, given actual opportunity, just the bare minimum of their needs.
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And allowed access and the space to engage in a new culture and new de
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radicalized education and, and, and, and, and, and just the space to transform
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themselves and their lived reality.
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70% of Gaza have never left the Gaza Strip.
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People are a product of their environment.
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They will absolutely perform miracles, and there is enough there that I strongly
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believe, and this is what I keep saying.
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A significant chunk of gazen are ready to move away from the so-called resistance
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narrative to the nation building agenda.
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All ultimately will lead to the coexistence narrative.
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But you see it's sequenced and I'm very deliberate.
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'cause even though they're against Hamas, there's still a lot of it.
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It doesn't mean they're ready to top to Israelis or they're ready for peace.
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It's a journey.
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It's definitely a journey and I think they're ready to, to go on this journey.
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They're, they're not Zionists, uh, and they won't be, uh, Zionists.
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Can I ask you, um, I assume that you remember where you were when
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you heard the news of October 7th.
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Can you share what you felt just personally and on behalf of the
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Palestinian people and could you relate also to you live
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in the West when you saw the.
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Protests.
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I don't even know how to characterize them.
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I, I, I didn't necessarily think they were pro-Palestinian because I didn't think
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they were, the effect of them was to be
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I think maybe they were Hamas supporters was more, more accurate.
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Actually, as a characterization, what did you feel personally on October 7th
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and when you began to see the responses?
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Immediately in the west, in the streets of the West and in the academies of study?
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Did you feel that they were helpful to the Palestinian cause, or did you feel
29:31
that there was some moral hollowness at the core of those protests that these
29:37
young, mostly young westerners didn't really get, didn't really understand?
29:44
I mean, that's part of why I am here and doing what I'm doing.
29:47
And I was in California, and I'm in Washington DC That, that
29:50
right now is precisely like, it, it began on, on ten seven.
29:56
It was, um, it was October 6th, the evening of October
29:59
6th here in the United States.
30:00
I was in California and I had just come back from a long
30:03
run, um, or walk and, and I, I.
30:08
I remember, um, after just slowly getting, catching up with what,
30:15
what, what was really unfolding.
30:17
Um, like screaming into the void and saying that Gaza's, as we know
30:23
it is going to cease to exist.
30:25
And I, I started just piecing together the different pieces and, and I remember.
30:33
Distinctly thinking that I hope the Israeli casualty numbers don't
30:39
keep climbing, because I knew the more they kept climbing, the
30:42
more horrendous this war and the counter reaction was going to be.
30:48
And there were several Palestinians, um, on social media and.
30:54
That I, in Arabic, that I remember seeing their posts and going, them
30:58
going like, Hamas just sold us out.
31:01
Hamas just betrayed us.
31:02
Hamas, like, yes, there were Palestinians who were celebrating.
31:06
Yes, there was a sense of novelty of like, oh, like people were mesmer.
31:11
It was like, it was some of, for some people it was a spectacle.
31:14
Those people who went in, it was a and looted.
31:18
It was a spectacle.
31:19
It was like, it was like a, a, a, like going to like the zoo or
31:23
going to like the shopping mall.
31:25
There was just the concept of a mass entry into Israel in this fashion.
31:32
Um, a mass casualty event was just, you know, it immediately
31:37
did brainwash a lot of people.
31:39
But what I'm saying is that there were people early on that were like,
31:43
oh crap, like Hamas just sold us out.
31:46
Like.
31:46
Hamas.
31:47
Just like, you know, even, even my mother who was, I consider like basically
31:53
politically illiterate, said to me they destroyed Gaza for qm Soleimani, the head
32:00
of the IRGC that, you know, this part of the avenging of the death of QM Soleimani.
32:06
So, so it was equally shocking when there were the immediate protests and
32:13
people were like calling it a genocide.
32:15
Like two days into it.
32:17
Like there wasn't even a war really then.
32:19
And people were saying this is a genocide.
32:22
I remember seeing a statement from Senator Chuck Schumer.
32:25
He said something like, to the effect of, I couldn't think of a more ill
32:28
timed protest, as Israelis are still battling to like, regain control
32:34
and like calculate, like, you know, tabulate their dead and whatever.
32:39
So it was then that I, I was horrified by the celebration of
32:43
Hamas as a resistance organization.
32:47
As the normalization of such a vile, terrorist organization, the
32:53
cheering on of the taking of women and children and the elderly as hostages.
32:58
I mean, again, let's just play along for a second.
33:01
If you just went into military bases and you took soldiers like, don't
33:07
do that because regardless you just crossed into Israeli territories
33:11
and you just broke a ceasefire.
33:13
But let's just for the argument's sake, pretend.
33:17
You can make a case and say, okay, these are soldiers, these
33:21
are whatever, blah, blah, blah.
33:23
But you took little like literal children's like, like like tiny
33:27
little children and the elderly and women and you were parading
33:32
dead half naked bodies in Gaza.
33:36
Like that is vile.
33:37
Like that is disgusting.
33:38
Like the, those are not the values of my once.
33:41
Beautiful.
33:43
Society that I believe Hamas has decayed from within after two decades
33:49
of its its Islamist despicable fascistic rule that was significantly
33:55
enabled and supported by the Islamic Republic of Iran, by Qatar and others.
34:00
And so.
34:02
Then to see the, the, the, the hordes of the, you know, the, I call 'em
34:07
the pro-Palestine industrial complex.
34:08
There's the pro-Palestine folks.
34:11
I call 'em the quote community.
34:12
'cause you can be pro-Palestine.
34:14
I'm pro-Palestine.
34:15
I've met a lot of Zionists and Jews and Israelis who are pro-Palestine.
34:19
I consider myself pro-Palestine to the extent that I would, would be
34:23
supportive of, uh, reconciliation between Palestinians and, uh, Israelis.
34:28
I've worked on that my whole life, so, I mean, I don't want to diminish
34:33
the term, in a broad sense, I, I have nothing against the Palestinians
34:39
and I, I'm a very strong Zionist.
34:41
I would like for them to prosper,
34:44
Precisely that.
34:45
think if the Palestinians prosper, that's good for everybody.
34:48
For them include, and the Israelis.
34:51
Precisely that.
34:52
On the other hand, I will say that there was also an immense amount of ignorance
34:58
and dehumanization of all gazen and everybody's hama and every 'cause.
35:03
A lot of folks.
35:05
Didn't really understand Gaza very well.
35:07
They understood Hamas.
35:09
They understood the horrible imagery of the abuse of hostages going in, of
35:14
the celebrations in Gaza, and though a few thousand had participated in that.
35:21
There was then a, this kind of, this application of, well then 2.2 or 2.3
35:27
million Gaza must therefore be like those, you know, three to 5,000 who may
35:34
have to in total celebrated, attacked and gone in after the went in and so.
35:42
Between the dehumanization of Israeli victims of October 7th, the hostages and,
35:47
and, and the survivors, and, and just what had happened and the celebration of Hamas
35:53
as as resistance and the total degradation of the actual like Palestinian advocacy
36:01
movement and efforts and the ethos.
36:06
Between the dehumanization of the Palestinian people, I think incitement
36:11
against the, just the wholesale killing of Palestinians and seeing
36:16
them as all animals and really just horrendous incitement that I knew was
36:22
going to lead to somewhere horrible.
36:24
Um, this is where I wanted to throw myself out there.
36:29
That I wanted to do something.
36:30
You know, I, I, I hate this term, the cliche, something in the
36:33
middle, like a third way, a third narrative of a sort that, that.
36:39
Pulls in different, that holds multiple truths, that is radically pragmatic,
36:44
that realizes the intricacies and interconnectedness of the two people's
36:48
futures and, and pathways forward.
36:51
And that's not kumbaya.
36:52
That's not just a peace and love and like, let's have dialogue
36:57
and everything's gonna be fine.
36:58
This is actual like.
36:59
Desperate radical pragmatism to to, to avert disaster for both of our peoples.
37:04
And, and that's what I've been doing.
37:06
What I decided to do very quickly after ten seven, and that was
37:11
put to the challenge when I lost.
37:13
Uh, immediate and extended family members in both of my childhood homes
37:17
were destroyed in several Israeli air strikes, and, and, and I have immense
37:22
amounts of, of, of, of, of, of resentment and anger and grievances over that.
37:27
And I also work really hard at not.
37:30
Harboring notions of hatred because that only leads to revenge.
37:35
And I wanna honor the legacy of my fallen family members by working towards
37:39
healing and reconciliation and breaking away from the vicious cycle of hatred,
37:44
incitement, revenge, violence, and re.
37:46
Re violence and, and, and, and, and rinse and repeat that is so
37:50
characteristic of this conflict.
37:52
And so that's, that's how ten seven really shaped who I am today.
37:57
And, and got me started on doing narrative work to try to push for.
38:03
A different pro palate assigned, you know, narrative and, and, and, and,
38:07
and, and point of view that rejects the relics of the past, rejects the
38:12
violent, uh, rhetoric, rejects the maximalism and is radically pragmatic.
38:19
While also, um, trying to dabble in policy, which is much more difficult
38:24
because it's politically a dead end issue for several reasons.
38:29
Um, but that's why I got to Washington, DC and I began a gig at the Atlantic
38:34
Council where I'm a senior fellow and I started a project called Realign for
38:38
Palestine to create an organizational framework around this so that it's not
38:42
just a one man show, but something that can hopefully be inspirational for others.
38:48
Ahman you, you've had, um, con very, very deep context, ongoing context
38:53
for the last 20 years, uh, with Gaza.
38:56
Did it surprise you and do you think it surprised the population
39:00
that was not Hamas, the extent of the Hamas Tunnel network in Gaza?
39:08
Well, unfortunately, towards the last few years.
39:13
It kind of was one of the biggest open secrets.
39:16
Not that everybody knew where the tunnels were, but it was very out in the open
39:22
that Hamas was digging tunnels everywhere.
39:25
Everybody knew it.
39:26
Israeli intelligence knew it.
39:28
So for example, I would call my mom and I'd ask her about distant neighbors.
39:33
'cause you know, I always reminisce.
39:34
I haven't been in Gaza for, for quite a few years.
39:37
And so I was like, oh mom, I wonder what happened to that
39:40
neighbor up there or that person.
39:43
And, you know, oh, so and so got married, so and so.
39:45
Oh, so and so.
39:46
It was like relatively common every few months to be like, so and so.
39:52
He is a loser.
39:53
He's, he's now digging for Hamas, like it was well known.
39:58
So Hamas would have people in disconnected cells.
40:01
They had amazing operational security where it was like
40:06
basically a team of five sometimes.
40:09
That way if they were exposed, they only exposed the little segments
40:13
and they only had them dig little segments, and then they would rotate
40:17
them and have other teams come in.
40:19
So that way if the Shin bet or Israeli intelligence exposed you, or if you are
40:25
a mole, you're only telling the shin bet.
40:28
Well, here's, I don't know, like.
40:31
300 meters that we dug here.
40:34
Here's 300 meters we dug there.
40:36
But like they're disconnected and you don't know if these are tunnels, if
40:41
these are standalones, if these are connecting ones, if these are like
40:46
decoy tunnels, sometimes they would actually, I've heard from several people,
40:51
they would actually have people dig deliberately decoy tunnels and then see
40:57
like monitor those people's behaviors.
41:01
To see the level of penetration by Israeli intelligence.
41:04
But I wanna be clear about something, two things in particular.
41:07
Number one is there were many cases where people were opposed, like
41:12
people's, like shafts or tunnels where would appear under people's homes.
41:17
And they would, they would speak out again.
41:19
They, they would confront the people.
41:21
And Hamas, well, the first thing is they would threaten people.
41:26
With all sorts of punitive measures up to disappearance.
41:32
Um, but then in certain other cases, um, like underneath big markets and big
41:38
sprawling community centers because you know, sometimes you can also hear or feel
41:43
certain shakings or certain whatever, they would also bribe, uh, certain businesses
41:49
and certain people and buy their silence.
41:52
I would be very curious to know the.
41:55
How much NGOs knew about Hamas' use of their and, and of their, of their
42:04
facilities and underneath their facilities and some of the unrun, the UN facilities.
42:09
And like, yes, there was Israeli propaganda that was a little bit over
42:14
the top, but the truth of the matter is that there was absolutely exploitation.
42:20
Of the humanitarian sector on numerous levels by Hamas, and I think many of
42:26
these organizations knew some of them, they were too scared to say anything.
42:30
Some of them felt that we just were operating in a difficult environment,
42:34
so we gotta keep our mouth shut.
42:36
Some of them felt that, well, our focus is on, you know, the population
42:41
and serving their interests.
42:43
But I still think in retrospect, it was a mistake.
42:48
That there wasn't a cohesive confrontation of Hamas.
42:53
Even if the local, like the local's fine, they have to live there.
42:57
They're, they're, they're weak.
42:58
They're Hamas will just kill them off or whatever.
43:01
But that international NGOs that used local staff that basically
43:07
knew about some of Hamas' activities and chose to remain silent.
43:12
I I, I find that.
43:14
I think in, in retrospect, I think that's, that's very disturbing and
43:18
that should actually be not just.
43:22
Investigate, but like, like taught and like lesson, we should extract lessons
43:26
learned from this for future conflicts.
43:29
'cause those organizations and the NGOs, they command billions of
43:33
dollars in international aid and support across conflict region.
43:37
And so I think there needs to be a reinforcement of
43:43
like, what are the red lines?
43:45
Like what is the ethical code of conduct and.
43:49
You're operating in areas that are under the control of
43:52
violent terrorist organizations.
43:54
They're not always jihadi Islamist groups, sometimes in Africa
43:58
or Latin America or whatever.
44:00
There, there could be drug organizations or there could
44:03
be separatist organizations, or there could be rebel groups.
44:08
But what is the red line?
44:10
What is the behavior like, like the expectation here?
44:14
Um, I think that's important to learn The lessons from Gail.
44:18
Your, opposition to Hamas' ideology and, uh, policies is
44:26
profound and apparent and public.
44:30
Are you concerned personally for your safety?
44:34
Do you receive threats?
44:36
And how do you respond if you do?
44:40
Well, certainly I do.
44:41
I mean, I've paid a heavy price for, uh, personal and
44:45
otherwise for this opposition.
44:47
I've had significant numbers of the pro-Palestine industrial
44:52
Complex come after me.
44:54
I've had Islamists, I've had like leftists and sters and white folks, and
45:00
university students and professors and journalists and others in the United
45:07
States and Europe and elsewhere, and NGO administrators and and nonprofit
45:13
professionals come after me for this.
45:16
So.
45:17
Um, yes, I have faced harassment, being ostracized, being attacked.
45:23
Um, I've faced like actual threats that required, uh, involvement of
45:30
the FBI and like authorities and private security and armor armored
45:36
vehicles and all, you name it.
45:39
Um, but I don't regret that at all.
45:42
I don't regret what I'm doing.
45:44
I wouldn't do anything different.
45:46
There's a huge number.
45:49
I mean, what I'm saying in English is, is there aren't that many gaza's in
45:55
English, um, who are saying what I'm saying, but in Arabic, there are many
46:00
Palestinians, um, who are saying what I'm saying, including some in Gaza.
46:04
Overtly and covertly.
46:06
In other words, there are thousands of Ahmeds out there.
46:09
I'm not unique in my opposition to Hamas.
46:12
I am unique in the sense that I'm not just against Hamas because of the consequences.
46:17
I'm against Hamas because of the principle, because of a desire for peace,
46:21
because I want to end this conflict.
46:23
I don't, I'm against Hamas because it's, it's, it's part of an ecosystem that
46:29
has benefited, it's part of a grift, um, that has benefited so many people.
46:34
And then finally, um, there are so many in the land, but certainly heat people here.
46:40
Who are regularly Arabs, Palestinians, Muslims, sharing with me how grateful
46:46
they are that someone else is saying this.
46:49
Um, this is a common phrase that I hear.
46:51
I'm, I'm just glad someone else is saying this or I'm just glad someone is saying
46:55
what we all know and believe is true.
46:58
We can't say so publicly ourselves.
47:00
Um, and I appreciate those sentiments, even though I would prefer that more
47:06
and more of these, uh, become public.
47:08
But I've also had people tell me that, you know, I speak out against Hamas and my
47:13
Facebook friends are crazy, or my in-laws are insane, or My Muslim group kicked me
47:21
out, or I can't get play dates for my.
47:25
Children or the halal market guys or the Arab market guys
47:29
are acting all weird around me.
47:31
And so there's a very, unfortunately, and this is where I'm, I'm very
47:36
disgusted by elements of the Palestinian and Arab diaspora and the Muslim
47:41
diaspora, that there has not been the ability to separate the Palestinian
47:46
peoples just and urgent aspirations.
47:49
For self-determination, freedom, dignity, independence from a vile,
47:54
despicable, antisemitic, jihadi, fascist organization like Hamas.
48:00
I, I, and, and somehow speaking out against Hamas is equivalent to, oh,
48:04
well you're just, you're, you're being against Palestinians or you're supporting
48:08
Netanyahu killing Gazen children.
48:10
Um, and these are the same people by the way, that.
48:14
We'll often cry foul, uh, when, when someone, I mean like, like
48:19
there's just look, without going into details, there's just inconsistencies.
48:23
And so I'm, I'm very frustrated by that.
48:25
I'm frustrated by how also.
48:28
The aforementioned communities, um, in the diaspora have become single issue
48:33
voters and activists, when in fact there are many issues that are facing Arab,
48:38
Muslim, Palestinian Americans, or those who are living in the UK or Europe,
48:42
that are much more than just Gaza.
48:45
But I'll just close by saying that, you know, there's a disconnect between the
48:49
discourse in Gaza where people have skin in the game and are paying the price.
48:54
Hamas as failures and, and violence and, and horrors and criminality
49:00
versus those who are in the diaspora with varying degrees of privilege
49:05
and they're totally disconnected.
49:07
And so I've gradually basically moved on from the diaspora based
49:13
discourse, and I'm focusing on.
49:15
Supporting and amplifying folks in Gaza and amplifying the voices,
49:21
courageous voices in Gaza, because those are the ones who are actually
49:25
going to forge a different future, not those in Dearborn, Michigan.
49:30
Hmm.
49:31
My last question to you, Ahmed, is.
49:34
Um, we have many thousands of, uh, listeners and people
49:38
who watch the podcast.
49:40
My guess is most of them are, uh, Jewish, and my guess is most of them
49:45
are supporters of Israel, love Israel.
49:47
my guess is most of them, although not all of them are liberal.
49:52
Do you have a message to American Jewry?
49:57
I register that.
49:58
You have faced a really difficult two and a half years from multiple directions.
50:05
On the one hand, you have the kahanas and the far right elements of the pro-Israel
50:11
or Jewish or Israeli communities or you know, whatever, uh, self-identified,
50:16
uh, folks who are have affinity.
50:18
For Israel who have really embraced an all or nothing, black and white, you
50:24
know, us versus them, you're either with us or you're with a terrorists.
50:27
And what that has resulted in is an inability to express any empathy or
50:34
compassion for the Palestinian people.
50:37
On the other hand, traditionally liberal, progressive.
50:43
Or leftist spaces have insignificant numbers, really abandoned many of their
50:49
Jewish constituents, and in an effort to be supportive of the Palestinian
50:54
people have have embraced some deeply problematic and really destructive
51:01
and empathetic narratives and views.
51:04
And so I reckon that.
51:06
Many in the Jewish community are struggling to find their space within
51:13
the political spectrum, if you will.
51:16
So I, I hear you and I see you, and I know that it's been difficult and
51:20
I know that it feels hopeless, and I know that there have been some really
51:26
awful, terrible things directed at you.
51:29
I will tell you that.
51:32
Yes.
51:32
I might be loud, I might be.
51:35
One of few who are just out there in your face doesn't, I don't care.
51:40
I'll tell you what I think, but there are thousands of Ahmeds out there.
51:46
And should there be and And they're not just in Gaza also,
51:51
they're here in the United States.
51:53
There are many people who are looking at what Students for Justice in
51:57
Palestine or Jewish Voice for Peace or.
52:01
Care or, you know, DSA Democratic Socialists of America or the squad
52:07
or others are putting out and saying, I'm Muslim, I'm pro-Palestine.
52:12
I'm, I'm pro Gaza, but this is, this is not me.
52:16
So please understand that there are many out there also in the Arab,
52:23
Muslim, and Palestinian community who are struggling as well.
52:28
I would argue their struggle is compounded to find their space on the political
52:34
spectrum without being part of the loony Democrats or the racist Republicans.
52:39
And I'm not even here to speak about politics.
52:42
Uh, neither Republican nor Democrat.
52:44
It doesn't matter.
52:45
So you're not alone.
52:48
We're in this together.
52:49
And finally, the people of Gaza are done with Hamas.
52:55
Yes.
52:56
It doesn't mean they're ready for total peace with Israel.
53:00
Remember I said it's a journey, but there is hope.
53:02
Otherwise, I would've moved on.
53:04
I have a degree in intelligence and national security.
53:07
I have many opportunities for other jobs.
53:09
Like I wouldn't, this is not glorious work.
53:12
Like this is, this is horrible in my health.
53:14
I would much rather move on to something else.
53:17
I wanna walk away from this every single day, but I, I, I see those people in Gaza.
53:23
And I see everybody talking over them.
53:26
I see no one listening to them.
53:28
I see them as being treated as inconvenient voices by the pro-Israel
53:34
folks who wanna say all Gaza's Hamas or the pro-Palestine folks who wanna
53:40
say all Gaza is Hamas and resistance.
53:43
And like, that's the irony of it all.
53:46
So I, I insist for as long as I can to stick around and say like.
53:52
Gaza is truly not Hamas right now.
53:54
Even Hamas dudes are jumping ship, but Al Jazeera doesn't want you to see that.
54:00
Independent media doesn't want you to see that.
54:02
Progressives and leftists don't want you to see that.
54:05
So just look a little bit deeper and check.
54:08
Check me out on on social media and realign for palestine.org.
54:16
Thank you very much for taking this time with us for shedding light,
54:21
uh, on very complicated issues.
54:24
For supporting and pursuing peace, we wish you well.
54:28
Thank you brother.
54:29
God bless.
54:38
This podcast episode is especially important to me, not because I agree
54:42
with everything that Ahmed said.
54:44
I don't rather.
54:46
I'm interested in platforming important voices and bringing attention to
54:50
perspectives that are not given enough consideration when the Iran war is
54:55
over and when the guns over Lebanon and Israel have fallen silent, the
54:59
Palestinian Israeli dispute will remain.
55:03
I hope that in the aftermath of the historic takedown of the Iranian regime
55:07
of terror, which fed the murderous proxies of Hezbollah and Hamas.
55:11
New creative approaches for progress between Israelis and
55:15
Palestinians will open up.
55:17
By the end of this war, Israel will have eliminated practically every leader
55:22
who was responsible for planning and executing October 7th and severely
55:27
weakened the murderous rejectionist forces that were array against it for decades.
55:32
I have no illusions.
55:34
Even if progress will be made on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, it will
55:37
take many years, perhaps generations.
55:40
There will be no permanent settlement anytime soon.
55:43
But I meant what I said to Ahmed.
55:45
I wish for Palestinians what I wish for all people.
55:48
Peace and wellbeing.
55:50
If there is to be progress, it must be through the cultivation of people
55:54
like Ahmed Fahd ate Palestinian thought leaders who are not radical hate-filled
56:00
extremists who commit or justify the worst savage race human beings can imagine.
56:05
I'd like to emphasize two points that Ahmed made, especially
56:08
to our younger audience.
56:10
First.
56:12
Ahmed insisted that Palestinians too have moral agency and to portray Palestinians
56:17
as innocent victims of forces beyond their control is to infantalize and
56:21
disenfranchise Palestinians themselves.
56:23
They launched October 7th.
56:25
It was their choice.
56:26
They didn't have to.
56:27
They took hostages, grandparents and babies, and refused to release them.
56:31
They didn't have to.
56:33
They turned down every two state solution since the partition plan of 1947.
56:37
It was their choice.
56:39
They didn't have to.
56:40
They choose struggle with Israel over accommodation.
56:43
They don't have to.
56:44
And as Ahmed emphasized, as a result of these choices, the Palestinians
56:48
have not manifested their potential.
56:50
While the state of Israel gets stronger, wealthier, and more developed every day
56:56
and second, especially to our younger audience, pay careful attention to
57:00
Ahmed's frustration with so-called pro-Palestinian Western protestors.
57:05
Most of them are pro Hamas, not pro-Palestinian.
57:09
There's nothing pro-Palestinian about supporting Hamas.
57:12
They brought catastrophe to Gaza.
57:14
They are the tip of the spear of the Iranian inspired effort to spread
57:18
radical Islam around the world.
57:21
Hamas represents the same Islamist forces that destroyed the Twin Towers on nine 11.
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Hamas is a disaster for Palestinians.
57:29
The entire anti Zionist struggle in the West and on campus in particular
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is conducted above and beyond the actual people on the ground.
57:38
It's about theories divorced from realities.
57:40
There's something Distastefully elitist about ignoring actual people
57:45
in service of an academic proposition.
57:48
Do anti Zionists think that Israel's right to exist is
57:51
theoretical for Israelis and Jews?
57:53
That we can introduce some resolution at the Oxford Debating Society.
57:57
Does Israel deserve to exist and debate whether Western students
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think that's a good idea?
58:03
Do not confuse moral conviction with moral preening and virtue signaling.
58:08
The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is not one of race or skin
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color or colonial oppression or apartheid or ethnic cleansing.
58:16
It is not intersectional with and an extension of American
58:20
social justice struggles.
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People and societies are much more complicated than that.
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You cannot simply clothe all of the world's conflicts with the same garment.
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And by the way, most Israeli Jews are Jews of color.
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They're not European and they are not white.
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They are refugees and descendants of refugees from the Middle East,
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persecuted by Muslim rulers, and arriving in Israel with nothing
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but the clothes on their backs.
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And even most of the Europeans who made their way to Israel.
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Fleeing persecution, pogroms and oppression.
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They were emaciated refugees, the miserable surviving remnants
58:58
of the genocide of our people.
59:00
We need to make anti-Zionism disreputable again.
59:04
We need to strip it of its veneer virtue.
59:07
There can be no such thing as virtuous anti-Semitism, masquerading
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as virtuous anti-Zionism.
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The fact of the matter is that half of our people lives in Israel
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and most Jews of the world feel an existential bond with the Jewish state.
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I hope that you do too.
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Until next time.
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This is in these times.