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Abigail Shrier (2020) - Teenage Girls and Gender Identity · The Joe Rogan Recap

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Welcome to the Joe Rogan recap. Great to be diving in.
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Today we're taking a deep dive into a well, a particularly
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thought provoking conversation from The Joe Rogan Experience,
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specifically episode Hashtag 15 O 9, featuring Abigail Schreyer,
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who wrote Irreversible Damage, the transgender craze seducing
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our daughters. Right.
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A controversial book, certainly. Definitely.
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And our mission today is really to unpack the core of Schreyer's
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argument, Look at the evidence she presents, right,
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specifically focusing on this phenomenon she describes.
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Which is this really rapid, significant increase in teenage
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girls identifying as transgender?
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Exactly. We've got the full transcript of
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their chat, which was pretty extensive, so we can navigate
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the key points, explore some of the potential implications and
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just get a clear handle on her perspective.
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Yeah, and it's important right off the bat, I think, to
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understand her specific focus. She makes it very clear she
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does, that her concern is centered on teenage girls.
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She explicitly says it has quote nothing to do with adults who
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are transgender. Right, She acknowledges they
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might have a genuine lifelong condition.
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Yes, and she even mentions interviewing transgender adults
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saying she supports their decisions.
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So it's not a blanket critique of all trans identity.
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No, it's very specific. It's about this particular
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demographic, teenage girls, and the speed at which this seems to
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be happening, right? So what actually sparked this
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for Schreyer? Why write this book?
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It's a tough topic. Yeah, interestingly, she
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apparently hesitated at first, wasn't looking to tackle this,
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but she was moved by a letter from a reader.
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Oh, really? Yeah, a mother whose daughter
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went off to college and then pretty suddenly started
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identifying as trans, along with a whole group of her friends.
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Wow. And apparently she was
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immediately looking into hormone therapy.
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You can imagine how unsettling that would be for a parent, that
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suddenness. Absolutely, and what pushed
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Schreyer further, it seems, was realizing this wasn't just a one
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off story. She started hearing similar
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accounts from parents all over the country.
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So a pattern emerged. Exactly this recurring theme of
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and onset, often within friend groups that seemed to be the
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catalyst for her digging deeper. And getting the story out there
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wasn't simple, was it? No, she talks about facing quite
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a bit of resistance when she first tried to get other
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journalists interested. Why was that?
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She calls it the minefield nature of the topic.
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Basically, she suggests there's a reluctance in, you know, maybe
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mainstream media to openly question or look too closely at
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anything related to trans identity, especially with young
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people involved. This minefield idea, what's
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behind that, do you think? What's she getting at?
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Well, it seems she's pointing to the really charged social and
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political climate around these issues.
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Schreyer believes that certain activists and she's careful.
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She says not all transgender adults, right, have sort of
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created an environment where even asking questions about
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transitions, especially for teenage girls, can get you
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labeled transphobic. There is potential for serious
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backlash. So that fear kind of shuts down
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open discussion, maybe prevents a closer look at this specific
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group. That seems to be her argument.
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Yes, it stifles inquiry. OK, so let's get into the core
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of it. The potential reasons she
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explores for this phenomenon among teenage girls.
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What are her main ideas? Well, Schreyer's central
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hypothesis is pretty striking. She suggests that many of these
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girls suddenly identifying as trans often share a similar
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profile, which is they might be individuals who've previously
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struggled with things like anorexia, bulimia, high anxiety.
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OK. So pre-existing mental health
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challenges. Potentially yes.
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Often feeling like they don't quite fit in.
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Maybe socially isolated, spending a lot of time online.
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Right. Identifying a possibly
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vulnerable cohort. There, precisely.
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And the idea she puts forward is that for some of these girls,
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identifying as trans could become like a framework, a way
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to understand and express this underlying emotional pain
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they're feeling. And the solution presented
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within that framework. The perceived fix, as she puts
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it, becomes medical transition, often starting with
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testosterone. Almost like the gender identity
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issue overshadows or becomes the explanation for other underlying
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distress. That's a key part of her
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argument, that instead of perhaps addressing those other
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potential issues first, the anxiety, the isolation, the
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focus immediately shifts to gender, with medical
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intervention offered as the primary path forward.
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And there was a specific study that seemed to really influence
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her thinking on this, right? Yes, she relies heavily on
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research by Lisa Littman, who was then at Brain University.
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Schreyer interprets Littman's work as identifying what Littman
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termed rapid onset gender dysphoria.
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Right, I remember that term causing a stir.
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It did. Schreyer describes it, based on
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Littman's research, as suggesting a quote.
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Huge epidemic of teenage girls suddenly identifying as trans,
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often in clusters within their friend groups.
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And linked to social media exposure.
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Yes, particularly after the rise of social media, with perceived
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pressure for hormones and surgeries becoming more visible
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online. OK, but that term rapid onset
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gender dysphoria is controversial, isn't it?
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Not universally accepted. Oh, definitely.
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It's a highly debated concept in the medical and psychological
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fields, but for Schreyer's argument, it's central.
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It suggests this might not always be that lifelong internal
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feeling, but could be influenced by social dynamics, peer groups,
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online trends. Which leads directly to the main
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counter argument, right? Isn't this just about society
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becoming more accepting? Exactly.
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That's the natural pushback. Less stigma means more people
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feel safe to come out. So how does Schreyer respond to
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that? Because it seems like a very
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reasonable point. She offers three main reasons
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why she finds that explanation unconvincing for this specific
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group. OK, what are they?
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First, she goes back to Littman's finding that reported
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70 times higher prevalence within these specific friend
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groups than you'd statistically expect.
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To the clustering effect. She argues that points to
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something more than just individual kids independently
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realizing their identity. At the same time, it suggests to
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her a social element. OK, that concentration is
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interesting. What's her second point?
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Second, she says, look, if this was just about people finally
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feeling safe to come out, who'd always felt this way.
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And you'd expect it across the board.
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Right. You should see a similar rise
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in, say, women in their 40s or 60s coming out as trans men.
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But the dramatic surge is overwhelmingly concentrated
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among these adolescent girls. That age skew definitely
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challenges the simple more acceptance idea.
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What's the third reason? The Third Point is about mental
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health outcomes. She points to reports of rising
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suicide rates and suicidal ideation among this group of
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trans identified youth, alongside the broader mental
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health crisis affecting teen girls.
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Her logic is, if these were individuals who always felt this
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way and are now being accepted, shouldn't their mental health
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improve or at least not worsen at such rates?
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She suggests the high distress levels might indicate the
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identification isn't resolving underlying issues.
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For some, that's a. Crucial distinction she's
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making, not denying distress, but questioning if the
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identification is the cause or the solution in these specific
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cases. Exactly.
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Which then brings us squarely to the role of social media.
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Yeah, that seems unavoidable in any discussion about teens
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today. Right.
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And Schreier connects this heavily to Jonathan Haidts work.
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You know, the coddling of the American mind.
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About social media fueling anxiety and depression.
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Yes, the constant comparison, the potential for cyber
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bullying, the way negative feedback gets amplified, she
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argues. This hits teenage girls
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particularly hard. And she sees a direct link to
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the trans identification trend. She does.
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She posits that for some girls, already feeling vulnerable and
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distressed may be partly due to this online environment.
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Identifying as trans could become another way this distress
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manifests, similar, she suggests, to how things like
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cutting have unfortunately become more prevalent among some
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groups. It offers an identity, a reason
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for the pain, an importantly, a community.
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And that online validation can be incredibly powerful for
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teenagers, right? Hugely powerful, Schreyer talks
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about how coming out as trans online often triggers this
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immediate flood of support praise, a sense of belonging
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that's incredibly reinforcing, especially if you feel isolated
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offline. And she mentioned specific trans
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influencers. Yeah, people online who present
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these sometimes very idealized narratives of transition,
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promising happiness, promising that this is the answer.
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And she also touches on the more negative side of social media to
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the body image stuff. Oh yes, the unrealistic beauty
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standards like face tune, the Kardashian effect, the damage
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from cyberbullying. She gives the Lana Del Rey
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example how just a few nasty comments can feel devastating to
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a team. So you got this perfect Storm
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Girls, feeling insecure, maybe anxious or depressed navigating
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this intense online world. And then this idea of
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transitioning emerges, seemingly offering a clear identity,
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community and a solution. That's the picture she paints,
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and she adds another layer, suggesting girls might be more
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susceptible to like, social contagion when it comes to
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mental health issues because they tend to be empathetic,
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maybe internalize their friends pain more readily.
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Which could potentially include adopting an identity that's
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prevalent in their peer group. That's the implication she
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explores. OK, this logically leads us to
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the really serious part, the medical interventions and the
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whole question of consent for minors.
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Yeah, and this is where Schreyer voices some of her strongest
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concerns. Ethically and practically, She
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questions how easily some teenage girls seem to be able to
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access hormones, even surgeries, treatments with potentially
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irreversible effects. She talks about informed consent
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clinics. Yes, places like Planned
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Parenthood are mentioned where she describes the process, at
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least in some cases, as allowing individuals to essentially self
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diagnose gender dysphoria and get testosterone with what she
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feels is minimal questioning or deep psychological assessment.
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That does sound like a potentially streamline process
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for something so significant. It does, and she raises concerns
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about the possibility in some areas of minors getting
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mastectomies, you know, top surgery, sometimes with limited
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therapeutic oversight. That's a major life altering
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surgery. What about the long term follow
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up? Do we know how these young
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people fare mentally and physically years down the line?
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Well, that's a key point Schreyer makes.
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There's a real lack of robust long term data specifically
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tracking the outcomes for this cohort, these adolescent onset
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females who transition medically.
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So we don't fully know the long term risks versus benefits for
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this group. She argues we don't have enough
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information, making it hard to make truly informed decisions.
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And she shares a story, a very difficult one, about someone who
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regretted transitioning. Yes, the case of Tyrion Desmond.
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It's presented as a cautionary tale.
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Transitioned as a teen, got lots of affirmation hormones, then
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had a hysterectomy young due to complications and later came to
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feel that transitioning hadn't solved her underlying issues and
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deeply regretted the medical steps.
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It really highlights the potential for detransition and
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the complexity. Yeah, that's sobering.
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It makes you think about this sort of societal context around
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this. Treyer definitely talks about
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that. She observes this tendency,
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particularly in the US she says, to frame almost everything as a
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civil rights issue. And while she acknowledges the
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importance of actual civil rights, she suggests this
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framing can make it really hard to ask critical questions about
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certain things, like the rapid rise in youth transitions,
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without being immediately accused of being discriminatory.
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So people with genuine questions, even parents, might
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just stay quiet. That's what she reports, hearing
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progressive parents supportive of LGBTQ rights generally, but
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privately worried about their own daughters pursuing medical
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transition. Very quickly they feel trapped,
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scared of being labeled transphobic or pushing their kid
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away. She uses the example of chest
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binders too. Yeah, just that parents might
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hesitate to even suggest taking a break from binding despite
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potential physical harm like rib pain or breathing issues,
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because they don't want to seem unsupportive.
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It seems like a very different different picture from how
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gender dysphoria was traditionally understood.
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She draws a really stark contrast.
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The historical understanding, she says, was typically gender
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dysphoria, presenting very early, like ages 2 to 4.
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OK, very young. Often more common in biological
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males and characterized by feelings that were persistent,
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consistent, and insistent. A deep, unwavering discomfort.
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And the current trend she's describing sounds.
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Radically different in her view, Adolescent onset mostly girls,
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often appearing around or after puberty, frequently tied to peer
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groups and sometimes following heavy engagement with online
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trans content. She stresses that older trans
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adults usually don't describe their identity emerging that
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way. And she mentioned something
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about outcomes for those kids with the early onset type.
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Yes. She cites research suggesting
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that many children with that early childhood gender
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nonconformity, if not medically intervened upon, would later
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grow up to identify as gay or lesbian adults.
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Which raises questions about the push for early affirmation and
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medicalization now. It does in her analysis, which
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connects to the role of medical organizations themselves.
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How so? She talks about the widespread
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adoption of affirmative care models.
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This approach generally prioritizes affirming the
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patient's self declared gender identity, often with less
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initial focus. She argues on deeply exploring
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other potential mental health factors or alternative reasons
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for their feelings. And she sees potential issues
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with that model being applied universally.
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Her concern is that therapist might feel pressured if they try
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to explore underlying issues before affirming a trans
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identity. They could worry about being
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accused of conversion therapy, which is banned in many places.
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So it could potentially lead to affirmation without a full
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picture of the young person's mental state.
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That's the risk she highlights, that the affirmation might
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happen before a comprehensive assessment.
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The statistics she uses to back this up are quite striking too.
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Yeah. The numbers are dramatic.
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She points to the rise in high schoolers identifying as trans
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from maybe 0.01% historically in the general population to around
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2% now in high school. 2%, it's a massive increase.
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It is, and she emphasizes that the majority of that increase is
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biological females identifying as trans masculine.
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She also cites data showing, I think, a quadrupling of gender
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surgeries for biological females between 2016 and 2017 in the US.
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And in the UK, where the data is apparently more centralized, she
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quotes an even bigger number, something like a 4000% increase
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in adolescent girls referred to gender clinics.
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These stats definitely fuel her argument about a rapid,
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potentially socially influenced shift.
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Those numbers certainly demand attention now.
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The conversation also gets into the very sensitive territory of
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women's spaces and sports. Yeah, and this is where things
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often get really heated. Schreyer voices concerns that
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align with some feminist critiques, sometimes labeled the
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turf perspective, though that term itself is controversial.
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What are the specific concerns? Concerns about biological males
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entering traditionally female only spaces like changing rooms
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or shelters and potentially making biological women feel
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uncomfortable or unsafe due to physical differences or
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perceived male social and. The sports issue is a major
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flashpoint. Absolutely the fairness debate.
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Schreyer discusses biological males competing in women's
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categories and often dominating even without full medical
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transition. She gives examples like high
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school track in Connecticut where records were broken.
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And the biological advantages are pretty well established,
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aren't they? Both puberty males versus
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females. Schreyer definitely highlights
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those Bone density, muscle mass, lung capacity, heart size
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advantages that generally persist even with hormone
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therapy, raising those fundamental questions about what
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constitutes fair play. She mentions Martina Navratilova
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getting cancelled for speaking out on this.
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Yes, that's used as an example of the intense pushback you can
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face for saying it's unfair for biological males to compete in
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women's sports. The pressure to conform is high.
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But are any sports bodies pushing back?
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Interestingly, yes, she mentioned some powerlifting
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federations have actually started banning biological males
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from women's events because records were being completely
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shattered. And the case of Fallon Fox.
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The MMA fighter is also brought up a biological male who
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competed against women, raising concerns about both fairness and
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safety. This ties into that ideological
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idea. She discusses the always a woman
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concept. Right, the viewpoint that a
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trans woman was always female biologically, even before
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transition. Schreier contrast this with
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arguments based on biological sex differences, especially when
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it comes to things like sports or specific spaces.
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Sounds like a big part of the problem, as she sees it, is just
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the fear of talking about any of this openly.
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She comes back to that again and again, this climate of fear.
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Parents, teachers, therapists, doctors afraid to voice
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concerns, ask questions, offer alternative viewpoints because
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they feel the social media mob professional consequences being
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labeled hateful. And she felt that herself with
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the book. Yeah, she talks about podcast
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host being hesitant to even have her on about campaigns demanding
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her publisher drop the book. She sees these as examples of
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trying to shut down the conversation entirely.
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Must be incredibly difficult for parents caught in the middle of
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all this. She really emphasizes that
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struggle. Parents trying desperately to
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figure out, is my child's sudden identification genuine dysphoria
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or is it social influence, online trends, underlying mental
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health issues. They often feel lost getting
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conflicting advice. And the lack of solid long term
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data on the medical side doesn't help.
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Not at all. She stresses the experimental
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nature of long term hormone use, especially testosterone, in
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young females. The potential risks?
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Infertility, heart problems, changes to sexual function.
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She says parents often aren't fully informed about these
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upfront. Even hormone blockers aren't
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always fully reversible, right? The understanding seems to be
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evolving. Exactly.
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That adds another layer of complexity and concern for
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parents weighing these decisions.
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And she keeps contrasting this adolescent onset with the
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traditional DSM criteria. Right.
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Reminding us that the clinical definition usually involved that
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persistent, consistent, insistent discomfort starting
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way back in early childhood, very different from what she
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argues is happening now with many teens.
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Another area she touches on is gender ideology actually being
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taught in schools. Yes, she discusses curricula
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being implemented sometimes from kindergarten, particularly in
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places like California, teaching concepts like gender as a
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spectrum, gender fluidity, using tools like the Gender Unicorn.
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And the idea that your body doesn't determine your gender.
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Correct. Asserting that genitalia doesn't
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equal gender identity. And are parents always aware
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this is being taught or can they opt out?
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She raises concerns about transparency, that parents
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aren't always fully informed and opting out can be difficult,
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especially when it's framed as anti bullying or inclusivity
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education. She mentions books like I Am
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Jazz being used to suggest kids might have a boy brain and a
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girl body, a concept she argues lacks scientific basis.
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What about people who go through transition and then regret it?
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Detransitioners. Schreyer definitely acknowledges
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they exist, and their numbers seem to be growing, But she also
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describes efforts by some activists to kind of downplay or
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discredit research on detransitioning.
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Like trying to suppress those stories.
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Or undermine the researchers like Lisa Lippmann.
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Again, she points to hostile reactions towards online
19:30
communities for detransitioners, suggesting an attempt to control
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the narrative and perhaps discourage people from speaking
19:35
about regret. It sounds like acknowledging
19:38
detransition challenges the certainty of of the affirmative
19:41
approach for everyone. That seems to be the
19:43
implication. It introduces complexity and
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doubt where some might prefer certainty.
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So despite all these really contentious points, what's
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Schreyer's overall message? Is she trying to find some
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common ground? Fundamentally, she stresses, her
19:57
focus is the mental health of teenage girls.
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She repeats that her work isn't meant to invalidate genuine
20:03
adult trans experiences. Her core argument is for
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caution, for more open discussion, for better research,
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and for a much more. Nuanced understanding of all the
20:12
factors potentially driving the specific trend in adolescence.
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She even shares that she's received supportive messages
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from parents and surprisingly, even some transgender adults who
20:22
are also concerned about the direction things are going,
20:24
particularly the activist side. Well, this has been a really
20:27
comprehensive look into Abigail Shrier's perspective as
20:30
presented in that Joe Rogan interview.
20:32
We've covered her main arguments about the spike in teen girls
20:35
identifying as crayons, the potential factors like social
20:38
media, peer groups, and the significant concerns around
20:41
medical pathways, consent and impacts on things like sports
20:45
and women's spaces. Yeah, her viewpoint, drawing
20:47
heavily on parent testimonies and what she sees as a break
20:50
from historical patterns of gender dysphoria, definitely
20:54
poses some critical questions. Questions about youth
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well-being, about societal pressures, about how identity is
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formed and influenced today. It really highlights, I think,
21:04
the need for more objective research, doesn't it, And for
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finding ways to have these difficult conversations
21:09
respectfully, even when people disagree strongly.
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We need to carefully consider the long term implications of
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these trends. Absolutely, and it underscores
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the huge challenges facing individuals, families, schools,
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clinicians, everyone trying to navigate this incredibly complex
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and sensitive landscape right now.
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So for you listening, we hope this deep dive has given you
21:29
food for thought. We encourage you to reflect on
21:32
the points raised, maybe seek out other perspectives too, and
21:34
engage in your own thoughtful conversations.
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What stood out most to you? What questions remain?
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It's clear this isn't a simple issue with easy answers, it's
21:43
something that definitely warrants ongoing exploration and
21:46
a real commitment to understanding all the layers
21:48
involved.