Latest / Learn Literacy Podcast / 21. Mark Arneson - Fine Motor Builds Literacy
Transcript
- Cheryl Urbanczyk: Hi everyone and welcome to this episode of the Learn Literacy Podcast. I am your host, Cheryl Urbanzik, and at Learn Literacy we focus on language for life by teaching literacy through language and structure. And I am very excited today to have with us Mark Arneson from Oregon. He is a fellow practitioner and just became a fellow in Orton Gillingham. So congratulations, Mark. Thanks for being here. Mark Arneson: My pleasure, thank you. Cheryl Urbanczyk: So why don't you tell us how you got into Orton Gillingham, how you heard about it. in different areas, sometimes knowledge about OG is more common than in other places. So let's start there. Mark Arneson: Yeah, it all started when Oregon passed some significant dyslexia legislation back in 2017. And part of it said that every public school had to have one teacher who was trained in dyslexia and had strategies to meet the needs of students with dyslexia. And so I'd really not heard much about Orton Gillingham, wasn't very familiar with it at all, but my principal enrolled me for the classroom educator training. So I took that back in twenty seventeen and the rest is history. As soon as I started using the approach with my students, I saw a lot of growth and I knew that it was what I've been looking for. Cheryl Urbanczyk: really amazing and that's quite interesting that that was passed that's quite some time ago. Like where Mark Arneson: Mm-hmm. Cheryl Urbanczyk: I am in Ontario we're trying to do similar things but there hasn't been anything like what you said about having a teacher trained to support students. I think that would be a neat next step for us here. What do you think OG gave you that you didn't get that you needed to get? Mark Arneson: A a lot, honestly. I think there's really two things. One, it really gave me a much deeper theoretical understanding and knowledge of the source of reading problems and what causes reading problems and what are the challenges that students face when they're having a hard time acquiring literacy. And so I understood all that side of things a lot better. And then the other is just the practical strategies. There's just some so much in my teaching that before OG, so many activities that I just didn't know and had never done with my students. And so just all the things that are part of our OG lesson plan. I can see in so many ways how they meet the needs of my students. And so that's what I really appreciate about OG is that I've had other trainings that are strong on the theory and then there's other trainings that just kind of provide strategies and stuff and I think what I love about OG is we really try to provide both in our trainings and I really appreciate that. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah, I would agree. And I think I I see them as two sides of the same coin. Like you need to know why you're using the strategy because it it's inevitable when you're using something, you're gonna hit a roadblock or a student that is just asks a question or doesn't seem to follow or isn't picking it up and then you're like, okay, what do I do? So if you don't have like the theory in the background of why you're doing it and how to adjust, it's you're kind of left without how to go forward, so to speak. So yeah. Mark Arneson: Yeah, absolutely. Cheryl Urbanczyk: So what grades were you mostly teaching? Were you like el younger elementary, middle school, high school? Mark Arneson: Yeah. I'm an elementary reading specialist, so I work with grades kindergarten through fifth grade. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. And what does that look like on a day-to-day basis? Or week by week, I'm just interested Mark Arneson: Yeah. Cheryl Urbanczyk: in an overview because I hear and I'm sure you do when you do your trainings, you meet so many people from different places and there's so many models out there. So it's neat to Mark Arneson: Yeah. Cheryl Urbanczyk: hear what people are doing. Mark Arneson: What's great about my job is I do get a lot of time with r the whole range. And so with those six grade levels, I spend about an hour a day with each one. And so I spent a lot of time providing instruction to all the elementary grades and I really value that if a student doesn't move and stays at our school, oftentimes I am working with them for three, four or five years. And so I do get to see the progression. and there's nothing better than that for me is staying with students who had such challenges at the beginning and then watching their journey. seeing the progress. So that's really cool. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Right. And that's good. Mark Arneson: And then I've also I've worked for other places with where they mostly work with middle schoolers, so I feel like that's a good part of being a reading specialist is you teach a lot. You teach all day and you get a lot Cheryl Urbanczyk: It is everybody, exactly. Mm-hmm. Mark Arneson: of different experience. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Well that's neat. So is it mostly one to one or groups or Mark Arneson: It's it's all groups at my school, unfortunately. We don't really have the capacity to do a lot of one on one right now. I think that's a good goal for us for the future. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well it it sounds like you're at least ahead of some places where there's staff embedded who have the skill set to do this teaching and whether it's a group or one to one, it's something that's working. So that's really good. That's neat. Well, one of the reasons I was interested in speaking with you was because you did a really fascinating presentation for the OG conference that was in the spring. And you talked about embodied learning. And I had just coincidentally heard the phrase embodied cognition not too long before that in a book that I read. And I I have my notes, so I'm just gonna get the title. It was called the book was called The Extinction of Experience, and the book talks about how technology the use of it removes a lot of our everyday experiences from each other and Mark Arneson: Mm-hmm. Cheryl Urbanczyk: or from us. And so this embody cognition was one of them. And so they talk about it as a way of understanding through our bodies and that we can't separate our learning from our body and that you know there's that physical component piece that goes along with whatever mental thing is happening in the brain. So how did you stumble upon embodied learning and why was that conference session so important for you? Mark Arneson: well it has a lot to do with what you're talking about. We've noticed a lot of differences in our students and like you said, I think it does have a lot to do with technology. But I just I wanted to learn more about particularly with young children. I had learned some about really the role of handwriting instruction and how important that is especially when it comes to young children and getting them to learn letter recognition skills. Not just obviously it's important for letter formation, but also just the way that we are able to perceive and recognize letters. I learned that the most effective way to make that happen is through handwriting instruction. And that kind of led me into some research that showed actually that's because just when we were looking at a letter, it's we're not just using visual processing to recognize it. There's a lot of kinesthetic processing in the brain that's involved as well. And so, prior to being a reading specialist, I actually was a kindergarten teacher. And one thing that happens, Is that some kids come in with knowing a lot of letters from preschool or learning them at home. And some kids don't know any. But not only that, some some kids at the beginning of kindergarten have a really hard time learning them, even when they're provided with good instruction. And so I was really interested in trying to scaffold for those kind of students and help them overcome that difficulty a little more quickly. And so I did wonder if fine motor skills played a role. So we knew that it was an indication of literacy difficulties and there's a relationship between fine motor skill issues and acquiring literacy. I knew that, but I wondered if it was like a causal relationship because you know if a student's having difficulty with rhyming, that is an indication that they might have difficulty acquiring literacy, but it's not necessarily true that working on rhyming like crazy is gonna help them get better. And there's other phonemic awareness skills that are gonna be more high high leverage. And so I wondered about fine motor skills. Like, is there something in the area of students really struggling with fine motor? are there instructional activities that are gonna help them when it comes to specifically their letter recognition skills? And I think I think the answer to that is yes, actually. So and that's what I presented on. And in particular there's one study that showed the ability to copy a design, look at just a simple design and replicate it using Play Doh or, a marker or whatever, that actually is highly predictive of outcomes in terms of literacy. a lot of different outcomes actually with letter recognition, even phonological awareness. And so we started to think, well, maybe we should work on that with these kids that are having a hard time. And so we did start implementing some activities to target that. And what we learned is some kids, they have a tremendous difficulty with like they're just they're really incapable of copying a design without direct instruction on how to do it. So we started providing some of that instruction. I do think it was really beneficial for a lot of our students. And so it was just sort of that's the thing that I appreciate the most about this science of reading is there is a lot of research that has practical application. And so when whenever I can read a paper or something and get an idea that it can change. the way I provide instruction in my classroom, I I really get excited about that. And so that was kind of the impetus for that presentation. Cheryl Urbanczyk: that's amazing. There's so many neat things that you said there. one thing that popped into my mind is I don't remember the study, but I have a slide somewhere in a training that like when we see a letter, the visual and motor areas light up in the brain. But Mark Arneson: Yes. Cheryl Urbanczyk: when we type it, that doesn't happen. Or s you know, so it it's it's Mark Arneson: Yeah, absolutely. Cheryl Urbanczyk: so interesting. And One thing that's always fascinated me and how Montessori structures their kindergarten classrooms or their younger grades to to build so much fine motor skills and Mark Arneson: Mm-hmm. Cheryl Urbanczyk: like buttoning, pouring, scooping, and Mark Arneson: Yes. Cheryl Urbanczyk: I think, at least when I was little we just did these things kind of naturally because we didn't have, tech and stuff like that. And so Mark Arneson: Right. Cheryl Urbanczyk: I I almost wonder if if there needs to be like a fine motor curriculum. Have you seen Mark Arneson: Yeah. Cheryl Urbanczyk: anything like that or something to build up? It's like stamina building, like for any muscle, right? If you're going to Mark Arneson: Yeah. Cheryl Urbanczyk: to write and write fluently with speed, age appropriately of course, you you need your hands to be able to do that. Mark Arneson: Definitely. Yeah, like you said, I should mention the the work of Karen James, you're talking about and showing them more activation with handwriting versus typing. That was a big piece of the presentation that we did. And Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Mark Arneson: another big consideration was I was thinking a lot about the fact that my own daughters went to Montessori and did all those wonderful things that you're talking about. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mark Arneson: And at the same time, I'm a title one teacher, w which means I work mostly with students that are not getting that enriched pre K experience. And Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Mark Arneson: so I think a lot of people have kind of realized that like when I was in kindergarten in the past, there was a lot more fine motor stuff going on, a lot Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yes. Mark Arneson: of Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah. Right. Mm-hmm. Mark Arneson: order building experiences that kindergartners were doing and now it's become a lot more academic. And you know, the thing is is the a lot of the kindergartners are ready for it because they're doing a lot more in pre-K and doing a lot of those sort of things. But my I guess my concern is that it's kind of contributing to a Matthew effect because the kids that are well prepared Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah, something. Mm-hmm. Right. Mark Arneson: are really benefiting from this shift towards a more academic kindergarten and the kids that are not, on the one hand we know that they need more practice, with segmenting and blending. And and so that's one reason to start all that stuff earlier. But if Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Mark Arneson: it comes at the cost of eliminating all of the fine motor building activities and that sort of thing from kindergarten, then that's not doing them any favors. And so that's what we tried to do at my school is find ways to do both, find activities that were ways to work on letters but involved cutting and lacing and gluing and tearing and things that would help students develop some of those fine motor skills while they're working on letters. Cheryl Urbanczyk: that that's amazing. Yeah, I again just a personal example, like being little, how much cutting we had to do and you had to cut on the line and you had to cut with skill, whether it was for art or cut and paste or whatever. And I don't see too much scissors skill stuff, but Mark Arneson: Right. Cheryl Urbanczyk: something else came in my brain, the conversation now about oral language and we just assume kids come to school with oral language skills. I wonder if we just make that assumption. with fine motor as well that well Mark Arneson: Mm-hmm. Cheryl Urbanczyk: they must have colored at home or played with Legos or you know what I mean to develop these skills but Mark Arneson: Right. Cheryl Urbanczyk: we're seeing that that's maybe not happening so Mark Arneson: That's right. And there was a lot more I remember there was like a a assessment of fine motor skills when I was in kindergarten. The teacher would call us all over one at a time and Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Mark Arneson: there was this bear thing and you had to do the buttons on the bear and the zipper. And then Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah, yeah. Mark Arneson: when you were ready you had to tie the bear's shoelaces. And you know, the teacher Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Mark Arneson: would see where you were with all those things and, help you out if you're having trouble. And now we don't do that as much anymore. And we've got a We have an awful lot of kids in our elementary school that don't know how to tie their shoes and so Cheryl Urbanczyk: No, no, I think Velcro did everybody in. Well, how do you connect this these concepts of, embodied learning or embodied cognition to the multisensory aspect of OG or multimodal, kind of thing. Mark Arneson: it's an interesting question. I think sometimes people kind of conflate the fine motor thing with multi sensory. I and we're talking about like getting out the the sand trays and the shaving cream and doing things with a lot of stuff and like big movements with our hands. And that can Cheryl Urbanczyk: That kind of thing. Yeah. Right. Mark Arneson: it can be multi sensory. But I do wonder if people are kind of picking up on find motor skill deficit in their students when they want to get out activities like that. And like Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Mark Arneson: I've in my presentation I talked about our use of play-doh and we use that a lot with our kindergartners. It's just I find it's not all that practical to do a lot of that stuff in the OG lesson just because it's very it's very time consuming. Yeah. And so Cheryl Urbanczyk: No. Yeah, it takes time. Yeah. And kids wanna play, they make other things with the play-doh as soon as it's out. Mm-hmm. Mark Arneson: That's right. And so I just wonder if if students are coming in with more fine motor skill preparation, then there won't be as much of a need to or as much of a desire to try to fit that stuff in in the OG lesson and then but I do I feel like diving into all the research side of things as far as the multisensory principal OG is concerned is really made me understand that it's not just not just reading that involves coordination of processing in different areas of the brain. It's really letter processing just in and of itself involves a lot of communication between different brain areas. The other thing that was interesting too is like That makes a lot of sense now that we've been doing more of this stuff is in the Karen James research, it it's the connection between kinesthetic and visual processing, but also the frontal parietal network is also active when they have these students in the scanners and they're doing handwriting. I think a lot of that has to do with there's a huge self monitoring component to it. so when when you're drawing a letter freehand versus tracing or typing. It's the same thing when you're copying a design. You have to do, the motor processing, but also part of your brain has to evaluate, am I accomplishing what I set out to do? Is this matching the model? And so Cheryl Urbanczyk: Right. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mark Arneson: that's pretty interesting too. I think there's an executive function component there that a lot of students benefit from working on and it's just I think it's a very appropriate way for young children to work on some of those skills when they're doing s these fine motor activities. Cheryl Urbanczyk: wow. Yeah, that's really interesting. So you said a couple of things that I I really appreciate. I guess even for myself to really differentiate what's the fine motor skill versus how can we integrate kinesthetic and tactile elements 'cause they're not the same thing. And I think Mark Arneson: Mm. Cheryl Urbanczyk: thank you for really making that Clear because I think it's easy to put it all together, And we want the lessons to be fun, we want to include everything, but developing fine motor is different than integrating the senses in whatever activity you're doing, whether it's, visual drill or spelling or or that other thing. And then, I had something else. Now it's like I lost it. the copying. And I think the the metacognition or the self awareness piece I think sometimes things move so fast in schools, we overlook how important that is. Mark Arneson: Yeah. Cheryl Urbanczyk: that kids need to develop that and that only develops with time and attention and kids knowing they have to attend to that and not Mark Arneson: Yeah. Cheryl Urbanczyk: just finish fast because it's come up before in different conversations and in training like, how how much are kids allowed to turn in work that that maybe isn't the neatest? You know, back in Mark Arneson: Right. Cheryl Urbanczyk: the day your teacher would say, that's sloppy. You have to have to redo it and turn it in. you know these things Mark Arneson: For sure. Cheryl Urbanczyk: kind of all go together, I think, if we're holding kids to a standard of practice where they have to implement those skills and use them, maybe you can tell me what your thoughts on this are. kids can learn cursive, but if they're not kind of forced to use it and they're held accountable for good cursive, is it worth teaching them cursive in the first place? 'Cause I I see so much inconsistency, in that. I don't know. Mark Arneson: Mm-hmm. Yeah. No, I I agree. we talk about that a lot. unf unfortunately there's not a lot of of use of cursive in Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Mark Arneson: my school or accountability for it. And so I always say if you are the only one that's providing the instruction in cursive in your OG lesson, I it can still work, but the student has to be really motivated and they have to really want to learn cursive and use it. And if that's not the case, then it's unlikely to work out. So Cheryl Urbanczyk: Exactly. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mark Arneson: there's interesting research on cursive too. And I think it is the same thing. It does require For older children usually who are learning it, it requires them to engage that self monitoring aspect as Cheryl Urbanczyk: Done. Mark Arneson: they're learning new letter formations. And does this really match the model that I was taught? So But yeah, I love cursive. It whenever I've had a chance to actually teach students successfully, I think Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah, yeah, mm-hmm, yeah, that's me. Mark Arneson: I think it's also very emotionally sound because they can do something that their classmates can't. They can write in cursive and Cheryl Urbanczyk: And it's a sense of pride in in producing beautiful script, I think, that Mark Arneson: Mm-hmm. Cheryl Urbanczyk: maybe isn't valued anymore. But we know when kids feel they can't do it, they s they will say my handwriting stings or I don't write well. And that shame piece is there, but yet we're not actively working on that they don't feel ashamed because handwriting is a public thing, everybody sees it, you can't cover it up. So, very interesting. So, what hot button topics in Oregon and for literacy, what what are you seeing over there? Mark Arneson: There I th in terms of literacy in general, there's a lot of discussion about writing instruction and Cheryl Urbanczyk: okay. Mm-hmm. Mark Arneson: especially in the older grades because you know a lot of students are discovering AI and using that for their writing, and so Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah. Mark Arneson: how can we provide tools necessary so that they have skills to plan and organize their writing without, you know just relying on something like that to write it for them. So I think that's a big one. and I think at the elementary level too, I think it kind of touches on a more broader topic of executive function. There's been some presentations on the OGA conference about about that topic. usually when you have kids that are getting a robust intervention For decoding and not making a lot of progress, that's typically the issue, is they are generally struggling with those executive function skills. And so I think that there is literacy specific executive function. And what's tough is that if you're low in EF, that makes it really hard to learn how to write. But I do think if you're if you get really good structured literacy. instruction in the area of writing and I've seen this and students are taught effective strategies for writing. and they engage in the writing process, it actually does wonders for their executive function skills and it allows them to really profit a lot more from their decoding instruction. And so I think that's a big one. That's something I I've worked a lot with the teachers at my school on is how to provide Cheryl Urbanczyk: Amazing. Mm-hmm. Mark Arneson: Some better writing instruction. Cheryl Urbanczyk: That's so that's great. my my last teaching job was a middle school teacher and I I really liked it and I did a lot with writing. But that was a long time ago. But even then, the idea that writing has skilled components that you can teach and the way that reading has skilled components, whereas Mark Arneson: Yeah. Cheryl Urbanczyk: most teachers are just like, Well, okay, I'll just ask them to write a paragraph without kind of thinking about, okay, what are what are my sub skills and how can I teach them and Mark Arneson: That's right. Cheryl Urbanczyk: all that kind of thing. And I think that's probably lacking in the the training that they have. Mark Arneson: Yes. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Otherwise they would be teaching that way, I'm guessing. And Mark Arneson: Yeah, for sure. And I think we've seen a a lot of movement in my district anyway. So I think in Oregon more generally, there's a lot better decoding and phonics instruction than there were like compared with ten years ago, certainly. See a really big change. I do think in writing it's still more of a more of a kind of a balanced literacy approach and a writing workshop approach where there is like minimal direct instruction and a lot of kids kind of going off and doing it on their own. More of a holistic thing and I think that's the next area where I'd like to see shift in practice. Cheryl Urbanczyk: I I hope so. And you know, decoding's somewhat straightforward because the assessments are so straightforward, right? Mark Arneson: Mm-hmm. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Like when you get to writing, what aspect do you assess and how do you put something together to figure that? whole thing out, And the other piece I know from just teaching, and I'm sure you do too, is that writing is so time intensive to read Mark Arneson: Mm-hmm. Cheryl Urbanczyk: all of the papers, to meet with the students, to talk to them, to give good feedback and not just grade again that time factor and we're always having to move fast. Sadly. Mark Arneson: Yeah, for sure. Cheryl Urbanczyk: So seems like you've done a lot with executive function, handwriting, this embody cognition. Is there another a aspect of learning that's on the radar for you that you want to learn more about or dive into next? Mark Arneson: Yeah, I'd like to learn more about the role of fluency in phonological processing. and I think so that's very interesting to me. Like w if we look at like a psyched report or or a dyslexia screening, those are becoming a lot more common. And I think the information that they give us on like rapid automatized naming is very valuable and tells us a lot about students. But the phonological processing, like on the C Top or that sort of thing, doesn't have a timed element to it. And so that was kind of the problem I think David Kilpatrick was trying to solve with the past, you take in automaticity and the scoring. And so I'm really excited about the paddy now. there are a lot of people have pointed out some issues with the past, and Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. I haven't tried it yet. Mm-hmm. Mark Arneson: I think the patty has a lot lot better scope and sequence of instruction and skills. So I really like the order that it assesses them in because that's a lot more range from simple to complex. But I I I do think it's important. A lot I think s I'm afraid that some people took some issue with the past and they've are just kind of have abandoned it and don't assess phonological awareness with a a fluency component at all. But so I I just I think that might be the next thing. I'd like to learn more about the research that goes in. I heard Louisa Motz talk about that too. Like it it seemed like she thought that was an area where we still have some significant learning to do in the science of reading. So Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah. I I would think so and personally that is kind of been a great area for me 'cause like when I've done Kilpatrick in the past, for some students with dyslexia or or other learning profiles, they're not gonna meet those times. You know what I mean? However many seconds it is, I don't remember. And I think that's where, the double deficit hypothesis and these other kinds of things like pull in that rapid automatic naming is that I'm not quite sure what word I'm looking for, but that other factor that is bottlenecking everything else to come together, right? That retrieval and processing Mark Arneson: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Cheryl Urbanczyk: and stuff. So yeah. Well that's good. So now that you're a fellow, what what's next for you in terms of future goals and next steps to keep moving forward with OG? Mark Arneson: I've just finished well shouldn't say finished, but I've done most of my first associate class and s what's next is people are starting their practicum. And my goal is to see if I can do both. I feel like it's helped me a lot to be an active teacher. in my work as a trainer because Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mark Arneson: like Whenever someone asks me a question, I can easily visualize a student who has had that difficulty and Cheryl Urbanczyk: Right. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mark Arneson: I feel like it helps me have good answers for w for people when they run into obstacles, which they often do. And so that is my goal is to hold down this job and keep doing the trainings in the summer and evenings and weekends and stuff. So hopefully that works out. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Exciting. Yeah. Mentor people. Well that's neat. Yeah, I think it's really important because I I work in schools too, that it's a grounding thing. Because like we have to know the realities of how things happen in school. Okay, there's OG ways that we know we need to do, but Then there's the reality of like kids in a class and the intercom Mark Arneson: That's right. That's exactly right. Cheryl Urbanczyk: and someone has to go to the office to pick up lunch and like all these Mark Arneson: Right. Exactly. Cheryl Urbanczyk: things. Well, what would be a piece of advice you would leave for people, either from your experience or what you see with students that would help them improve their practice? Mark Arneson: I think a question I often get asked when people do the training with us is what's what can I do to bring this back to my school and inspire other people and get them interested in training and I always just say it to be the change you wanna see in the world. And advice is just Pursue training and do practicum and focus on your own skills because there's so much to learn, I feel like I'm still improving and learning and taking things in that help me provide better education at our school. And so I guess that's my advice is just keep learning as much as you can. There's so much to learn. And I g that's my interest in general in all this reading research because there is a lot more. That we can learn from and implement for our kids. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Well, that's amazing. Yeah. I'm like that too. I always have something to read, something to look at, and it and that's kind of the fun thing for me too about the trainings 'cause I'm always changing it up somehow. I read this, Mark Arneson: Mm-hmm. Cheryl Urbanczyk: we have to add that. this isn't working, take it out, no longer effective and it makes it fun and alive, right? Well, thanks so much for being here, Mark. I really appreciate it. And I look forward to sharing this episode with people and having people be more interested in Orton Gillingham and like you said, being that change out there. So thank you very much. Mark Arneson: My pleasure. Thanks for the invite. This was fun. Bye. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Thank you. Thanks. Bye.