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Roberto Moreno - Part 2 · Rusty's Garage

0:02
A listener production.
0:18
G'day, it's Rusty here, all set for part two of my podcast with Roberto Moreno, the Brazilian racer who went to the UK without knowing a word of English and never looked back on the path to Formula One and IndyCar.
0:31
He found ways to open doors that most of us would never dream of knocking on, sleeping in cars, cleaning workshops for legends like the late Australian team owner and engineer Ron Turanac.
0:43
If you've landed here without giving part one a listen, you are missing out on the formative years, his early life in Brasilia, how he became close friends with former world champion Nelson Piquet, a love of motorbikes, and how not wanting to disappoint his mother became his true drive.
1:01
We begin part two by continuing the pathway, edging up the ladder on the way to Formula One.
1:09
So take us now from Formula Ford into Wings and Slicks cars.
1:12
So clearly between you, what you're doing on track, Pee Wee, what he's doing maybe in the background and so on, this eye-catching moment for Chapman, Collins and Lotus, what happens next?
1:27
And are you now starting to think –
1:30
Okay, I can be a, this is all I want.
1:34
I want to be a professional racing driver and maybe the sacrifice will start to get a bit less and I can actually, like Nelson.
1:41
I wanted to be involved in racing.
1:43
I wanted to be racing, but I couldn't see myself racing.
1:47
Really?
1:47
Because I had no money.
1:50
Lotus...
1:52
And again, Pee Wee was key for many things.
1:56
Pee Wee, if it wasn't him, I wouldn't be able to do what I've done, ever.
2:02
Even his friendship with Peter Collins opened Peter Collins' eyes to suggest my name to Collie Chapman.
2:10
Gotcha.
2:11
Because it was Peter that really pushed for me.
2:15
And Pee Wee used to tell Peter all about me throughout the year and all that.
2:19
And all that grew throughout the years, through the two first years and led into that contract.
2:26
That contract was good because they paid me 10,000 pounds to be on the contract for three years.
2:35
And that money, I lived in England.
2:38
I went back to England.
2:40
Now, my next step, I didn't know what to do.
2:45
So the Formula Three started and I had no drive.
2:55
I had a Formula One contract.
2:57
I've done some laps in a Formula One car in Brazil a couple of times.
3:02
What was that like?
3:03
I mean, this is the stuff of dreams for most people, and you're getting to drive it.
3:08
I know it seems, I think, that chapter was both blessing and tough, wasn't it?
3:15
It was too soon for me to drive a Formula One car.
3:18
That's the bottom line.
3:20
Okay.
3:20
Okay.
3:23
My 81 Lotus ground effect, it was just too soon for a young kid, skinny, weak.
3:33
But they knew that.
3:34
They just wanted me under contract for the future.
3:37
So they gave me some laps to make publicity and see how I could do.
3:42
But they realized it was too soon for me.
3:45
But...
3:48
I was a Lotus Test driver like Nigel Munsell was before he became a full-time driver.
3:54
It was something new in those days.
3:57
It started with Nigel Munsell and then me and then a couple other people later.
4:03
But that kept me around racing.
4:07
Now, Ron Toranac knows a lot about me and Pee Wee talks a lot to him about me and he's pushing for me.
4:18
sometime during the 81 season, I think four or five races into it, a team from Holland who had purchased a route from Toranac for a driver...
4:39
son of the owner who had an accident in December before the championship started and damaged his face in a road accident.
4:51
He rode a Jeep in France and damaged his face, had to reconstruct his face.
4:58
And the owner said to the team and they say, look, you already.
5:03
have a team going in England.
5:05
My son can't race, but hire a Dutch driver.
5:11
And it was an old Dutch team racing in England.
5:15
This guy called Keith van der Grint, which was a tremendous engineer from karting, from Holland.
5:25
And he loved development.
5:30
And
5:32
He hired Blickenmolen, Michael Blickenmolen.
5:38
And few races into it, I didn't know, but he hated him because apparently Michael wasn't good in developing a car.
5:46
And Keith was all about engineering and inventing things.
5:53
So,
5:54
He went to the owner of the team and said, look, I can't put up anymore.
5:58
I want to stop.
6:00
I'm not having fun.
6:01
You're spending a lot of money.
6:04
I don't think we should continue.
6:07
So, come on, just find another driver and continue.
6:12
If you can't find another driver that you like, we'll stop.
6:16
So they set up.
6:19
Anyway, Case van der Green talked to Ron Toranek.
6:25
about testing drivers.
6:27
So he found two or three drivers.
6:30
And Ron said, well, I know a little kid that you should test.
6:37
He just got a Lotus Formula One contract.
6:40
I've seen him doing Formula Fords.
6:42
I like him quite a lot.
6:44
Why don't you try him?
6:46
So got a phone call from Case and through Peewee, and they arranged tests.
6:54
We went to Brunshatch Club Circuit, which is where I won the Formula 4 festival.
7:00
And I was the last driver to test of the three.
7:07
My first time in, well, my second time in wing cars, but my first time in the Formula 3 car ground effect.
7:18
I went out in the car, did five laps, three or five laps,
7:24
come in the pits and I say, Case, I go to Paddock Bent and this car understeers and Paddock Bent is a little faster.
7:35
So I guess you need to put some front wing in the car because I guess fast quarters is wing.
7:44
You look at me, but you haven't even warmed the tires up.
7:47
So yeah, but that's the feeling I have when I turn the steering wheel.
7:52
Sure, so yeah.
7:53
Okay, I'm gonna put a couple of degrees.
7:55
Put two degrees in the car.
7:56
I went out, I loved it.
7:58
Come back here and say, yes, but one more degree.
8:02
Not quite enough.
8:04
You only done another five laps, you haven't warmed the tires up.
8:07
Yeah, but that's how I feel.
8:09
Okay, put another degree, off I went.
8:12
So now I did a 10 lap run in the circuit that I knew inside out.
8:17
In the car that was brown new to me.
8:20
And I'm quicker than the other drivers because, simply because I've changed the car and they didn't.
8:28
Which resonated with him clearly, didn't it?
8:30
He was impressed by this.
8:31
And he said, wow.
8:33
And then I stopped in the pits and I'm breathing fast and it's all excitement for me because I never had driven that fast ever.
8:44
And the Formula 3 car that goes through the corner so fast.
8:49
And I start thinking, I say, Case, a Formula Ford car in Brunshatch to go fast must touch the ground before Paddock and before the Assis.
9:02
This car doesn't touch the ground.
9:06
Should we lower the car?
9:08
Okay, so he lowered the car.
9:10
I went out, I go quicker because a ground effect car, I didn't know at the time, but ground effect car, the lower you go, the quicker it goes.
9:17
It goes, yeah, yeah.
9:18
Especially in a small place.
9:22
So I go quicker, I stop, I see, still not touching.
9:26
So he lowers it.
9:28
I go quicker again.
9:30
Now he gives me a new set of tires.
9:33
I break the lap record of the circuit.
9:36
And he's so happy and all that.
9:38
And I said, okay, it's still not touching the ground, even with the new tires, even in the first few laps.
9:44
So he lowers again.
9:46
I start touching and I go quite fast.
9:50
I stop in the pits.
9:51
He said, oh, let's try to lower a bit more, he says.
9:54
I said, well, it's touching enough.
9:56
No, no, let's try a bit more.
9:58
Guess what?
10:00
I went through the S's, touched the ground so hard, and I skid off the racetrack and destroyed the car, the front of the car, the left front corner.
10:12
And he comes, and he's looking at the car, and he looks at me, say, are you OK?
10:17
I say, yeah, I'm OK.
10:19
And then he goes back and he calls the owner of the team and said, look, I got good news and bad news.
10:25
I found the drive fire one.
10:27
But he's not Dutch.
10:28
He's not Dutch and he destroyed the car.
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But I know why he destroyed it and it was half my fault.
10:35
He said, hire him.
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And that's how I went racing.
10:39
Unreal.
10:40
What transpires next in your career then?
10:43
So, you know, you need to be stronger for Formula One.
10:50
Lotus at least gives you that opportunity.
10:53
But what do you do in the next phase that ultimately gets you to Formula One?
11:00
Because there's a bit of moving around here, isn't there?
11:02
I mean, Pee Wee gets you to New Zealand where we're talking now and you would do some Formula Atlantics.
11:07
going to Australia.
11:08
And those Grand Prixs that Bob Jane ran at Calder Park, the motor racing people look back on those very fondly because of the names that came out.
11:17
You, Nelson, Alan Jones, Jacques Lafitte, I think, came.
11:21
Nicky Lauda.
11:21
Nicky Lauda, exactly.
11:22
Kaki Roseburg.
11:23
Yeah, yeah.
11:25
A couple of others, André Desazeres, Jeff Brabant.
11:29
Yeah.
11:31
I think Larry Perkins was there.
11:33
Yes, he was.
11:34
And a few other names from Australia, very quick drivers.
11:39
So, Mike Meehan.
11:41
Yes.
11:43
Steve Meehan.
11:45
So, there were some good drivers there.
11:49
So I started to race with case.
11:53
The first race, I broke the gearbox, so we didn't race at Snetton, I believe.
11:58
Then we went to Cadillac Park and I felt sick jumping, going up the hill and jumping.
12:05
Somehow that made me feel seasick.
12:07
Okay.
12:08
So that race wasn't very good for me.
12:11
That is mighty, that jump, isn't it?
12:14
I mean, it's crazy.
12:15
So I think that was my second race or my first real race because it's Nettaton.
12:20
We did not race because the gearbox broke.
12:24
My second race, which was, I forgot which one it was, and I won my third race, which would be my fourth one had I raced at Snetaton.
12:39
And the way I won that one, if I'm not wrong, it was a race for European teams and British teams racing in the same race at Silverstone Grand Prix circuit.
13:03
Whoever wants to race the European would race with free tires.
13:09
and would count points for the European Championship.
13:13
Whoever raced with the Avon tires would count points for the British Championship.
13:19
So I'm testing the British Championship tires and I stopped in the pits and I see Rom Toronag talking to Case Vandergrind, my team owner or team manager.
13:32
And then they come close to my car and say, well, Roberto, Ron Toranac has two sets of Bridgestone tires that if we want to race the European championship, we are welcome to have.
13:47
I say, have anybody tried those tires before?
13:50
No.
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They're brown new from Japan.
13:52
Do you want to have a go?
13:56
I looked at kids and said, what do you think?
13:57
They said, well, I'd love to give it a go.
14:00
Hmm.
14:02
Um, okay, let's put it on the car.
14:05
I'll put it on the car.
14:07
Um, actually, we'll put it on the car, um, for qualifying, straight in qualifying.
14:19
And I put it, put on pole.
14:20
First time on the tires.
14:21
First time on the tires.
14:24
And we put on pole in front of all the Michelins and Avons and you name it.
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And all the European teams there.
14:34
And we won the race.
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So that was phenomenal to win that race.
14:40
We had a bit of help because the tires were quite good, but we really won that race.
14:46
So...
14:48
Winning my third race in Formula 3 starting late without testing was phenomenal.
14:54
And all that testing I'd done and developing the car brands hatched the first day, looking back at it, it was something unique for a young guy to do it.
15:07
But again, we won three races that year, three or four if I'm not wrong.
15:15
But at the end of the year...
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The season was finished.
15:20
And what's next?
15:21
I've got 10,000 pounds for the following year from Lotus, but no drive.
15:28
We're talking here in New Zealand.
15:31
There is a funny story about Kenny Smith, legend in these parts, legend in these parts, and some horse racing in order to kind of stitch some things together, wasn't it?
15:43
Tell us about that.
15:43
It was fantastic.
15:45
New Zealand, for me, was fantastic because Pee Wee calls me up and said, well, why don't we go to New Zealand?
15:52
We've got a car.
15:53
You almost did that in an accent then.
15:58
And we've got an engine.
16:02
Maybe we can make it.
16:04
He had made some good money by winning the Australian Grand Prix.
16:07
Right, yeah.
16:08
I think we won a full car from, I think, Nissan.
16:12
Oh, Nissan, okay.
16:13
Nissan gave us a car and he sold it and made some money.
16:20
The price money was high.
16:22
He paid good... Bob Jane paid good money to have us there.
16:31
So, okay.
16:31
So I was in Brazil for Christmas and New Year.
16:34
Then I went to the government.
16:37
And this guy that I know at the government took me to the education minister department, ministry department, I don't know what you call exactly, but the secretary of sports in the government and asked him to help me to go to New Zealand.
17:01
So at the time, they only supporting volleyball teams.
17:08
So they gave me an air ticket, international air ticket, and they named to one of the volleyball players.
17:18
And they gave it to me.
17:21
So I got a full ticket to go to New Zealand for free.
17:24
And if you see in the first race, it's S-E-E-D on my car.
17:29
That's the...
17:31
The name of the volleyball player.
17:32
No, it's actually the...
17:34
The Secretary of Sports in Brazil.
17:37
Sorry, sorry.
17:38
Department of Education.
17:40
Yeah.
17:40
But it couldn't have been in my name because they were not supporting racing teams.
17:45
So anyway, got to New Zealand.
17:49
Bay Park?
17:49
Bay Park, yeah.
17:51
First race was good.
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We won the race.
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Great result.
17:57
After the race, I was on my speedos enjoying the sun.
18:01
This journalist comes to me and says, well, how do you think you're going to go the next race?
18:06
I said, well, unfortunately, we only had money to do one race and we have to go home.
18:12
no so apparently there was half a page in one of the top newspapers in Oakland about champion goes back home with no money so people got to know about that and Pee Wee got some help from the sponsors of the championship Aurora and they chipped in some money for us to go to the next race
18:42
And then that's when this little guy called Kenny Smith shows up and says, Roberto, I know you're a little short of money.
18:55
I think I know the horse winner of tomorrow's race.
19:01
And this was Friday, I think, or Saturday.
19:04
I said, really, Kenny?
19:06
Let's put a lot of money.
19:07
Let's get a bunch of money, borrow money, and put it there.
19:11
No, no, no, he can't do that.
19:13
Change the odds.
19:14
It'll change the odds.
19:15
Yeah, he changed the odds.
19:17
Okay, okay, how much we put?
19:19
Only $500.
19:20
So we all chipped in a little bit and...
19:23
And we won.
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And then he said, oh, tomorrow there's another horse that's going to win.
19:29
So we put more money and we won again.
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And we won four times.
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Unreal.
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And Kenny, it's incredible.
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We would be calling everybody to go to the grid.
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Kenny would disappear on the phone to get the results of the race before.
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And we were all waiting for him at the grid.
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So we won four times.
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I think I won $5,000 total in those days.
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And that helped us a lot in the second race.
20:01
The next event, I won the Pukakoi race.
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Massive.
20:08
Grand Prix.
20:10
I won the first race.
20:14
And the second race, Steve Millen started better than me.
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Although I was faster than him, I didn't have to pass him because I opened such a good gap in the first race that all I had to do is finish behind him because they were adding the times.
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for the winner of the race.
20:38
So he's too pissed about it so many years later, you know?
20:42
He was with us last weekend for a function, which is what's prompted this podcast.
20:46
And he brought a hacksaw, didn't he?
20:47
He wants to cut the trophy in half.
20:49
So he was so pissed so many years later, and I never realized it.
20:56
And he thought he deserved to win because he won one hit and I won the other hit.
21:02
But he only won the second hit because...
21:05
I knew if I finished behind him, I would have won the race.
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So that's all I done.
21:10
Okay.
21:11
So could have won?
21:15
Yeah, maybe.
21:16
But I took it easy in a way.
21:19
So for me, winning the New Zealand Grand Prix was very important.
21:26
So I made sure we'd done that.
21:38
Roberto has that ability to find and create opportunities, and he's clearly enjoyed the journey, something Kelvin Fisch did too.
21:46
So I went from F3 in Europe on the verge of F1 back to Formula Ford 1600 in the States.
21:52
There was also a Pro Sports 2000 championship, which we competed at with Tiger, so Harden Gamley from Tiger gave us a car for that.
22:01
Calvin race wheel to wheel with Senna, Brundale, and more in his early days, before that move to the United States, and Cal had the talent to go a long way.
22:11
Like Roberto he's still involved in the sport, but on the broadcasting and driver management side.
22:16
More from the Super Sub now.
22:20
If we're to talk Formula One, in some respects we have to talk about IndyCar, don't we?
22:26
Because you would go back and you would have some success there.
22:31
You would put some money in the bank and it would ultimately help you get back to what was unfinished business.
22:39
Yeah.
22:43
In 1985, I found a door to drive for Tolman.
22:51
Pat Simmons now was engineer at Tobin.
22:56
Senna had just left.
22:59
They took me for a test in Estorio.
23:02
I performed extremely well.
23:05
And suggestion was made to have me run in that season.
23:11
But they had dropped Pirelli's sometime during the year in 84.
23:22
And... Was the performance not as good?
23:31
Was the car not as good?
23:34
Well, the car was good, but they dropped Pirelli's in the middle of the year sometime for Michelin.
23:42
And then at the end of the year, I think Michelin left the series.
23:47
So Pirelli would not supply them tires again the following year.
23:53
And Goodyear didn't like what they've done to Pirelli.
23:58
So they end up with no tires.
24:02
So I stretched that situation very late because I got an offer from Rick Gallis in America to go race IndyCars a full season.
24:11
Yeah.
24:13
So I kept delaying, I said, Rick, I really got this going here, and I've got a good chance, and I stretched it until March.
24:22
And poor Rick, he called me in January, he said, Roberto, I'm gonna have to sign a driver, otherwise I'll lose my sponsor.
24:29
So I said, go ahead and do it.
24:30
So he signed Jeff Braben.
24:35
And then, a month later, he calls me again, he said, Roberto,
24:42
I found another sponsor and I want to put another car for you.
24:45
I say, Rick, I'm still working on this thing here to get to drive for Tolman.
24:52
That's a good opportunity.
24:53
It will get me back in a good car.
24:57
I'm going to keep working on this.
24:59
And I keep delaying him.
25:01
He used to call me every week.
25:04
for since november all the way through great feather in your cap he clearly wanted you for various reasons yes indeed rick carlis basically always did what penske did he used to follow penske's um whatever he did and penske hired mike thakwell
25:24
to replace Rick Mears sometime in 84 at the end I believe and Rick knew that I in 1982 when I went to do Atlantics for the Long Beach Grand Prix I finished second and I beat Alonso Jr. who he was sponsoring at the time so he was behind Alonso Jr. because they're all from Albuquerque
25:54
New Mexico.
25:56
Eventually, I drove for Rick Gallas.
26:00
But basically, he knew that me and Michael were fighting very strong in Formula 2 in 84.
26:09
So since Penske hired Taco, he hired me.
26:14
So...
26:15
So Mike was only to replace Rick Mears, I believe, for that end of the season.
26:22
But he hired me for the full season in 85, he wanted.
26:26
Then because I delayed him up to, I believe, March or April, something crazy.
26:32
He eventually signed another driver.
26:34
He said, Roberto, I've got to sign another driver.
26:36
I said, Rick, I'm going to let this go.
26:39
I'm sorry.
26:40
And then a week later, I discovered that Toman didn't have tires to do the season.
26:47
I called him back and said, Roberto, it's too late.
26:49
You're a week too late.
26:52
So after speaking to him every week...
26:56
And delaying him, I end up wanting to drive for him.
27:00
So that 85 season was terrible for me because I end up with nothing.
27:07
And then luckily, I had a good report with Kawamoto, the president of Honda.
27:15
I think he was the president of research and development at the time.
27:20
And only later he became the Honda president.
27:23
He...
27:25
I say, Roberto, do you still want to drive?
27:27
I say, sure.
27:28
He calls me from Japan.
27:29
He said, well, there's a team here that has a spare car from previous year.
27:36
And I'm going to give them some help to run you.
27:40
So Kawamoto arranged for me to race for Nova Engineering in Japan in Formula 2.
27:48
And I did half a season then.
27:51
And then I received a phone call from Rick Gallas.
27:55
He said, Roberto, my driver, Pancho Carter, he has a hip issue.
28:01
and he cannot drive street and road courses.
28:04
So he's okay on the ovals.
28:07
Would you please drive on the road courses and street courses for me?
28:11
I mean, road courses and, yeah, street courses.
28:14
I said, yeah.
28:16
So I look at the dates.
28:18
And they all were okay between Japan and America.
28:23
So good.
28:23
So I did eight races in Japan, I believe, and eight races in America in Indy cars.
28:30
Meanwhile, I was trying to keep my foot in Europe because I knew that would be the way to do Formula One.
28:39
So I found a team, Byron Racing again, who I race in Formula 3 for in 81.
28:49
They were now running in 85 with Tiro cars.
28:56
They were running Adrian Campos.
28:59
So I convinced Case Vandergrind to run me in the first event.
29:07
on the spare car.
29:08
But he said, Roberto, I only have mechanics for one car.
29:12
I said, Case, come on.
29:14
When he stops, I go out.
29:17
And I tell you, the crazy guy, he accepted and he found a way to do that.
29:24
And we found a way to work.
29:26
Eventually, Ken Tiro felt sorry for us.
29:29
And on the weekend, Saturday and Sunday, he sent one engineer and two mechanics to help me.
29:35
And we ran the first race with the Tiro in Formula 3000.
29:42
So I was able to do three or four races in 3000.
29:46
Eight races in Japan in Formula 2.
29:48
And I believe six or eight races in IndyCar.
29:51
That's amazing.
29:53
So that was a tough season for me.
29:55
And then eventually in 86, Rick Gallas hired me for a full season.
30:00
And I spent a full season in America.
30:02
Did you enjoy IndyCar, clearly?
30:03
Very much so.
30:04
Except my engineer board, you had the choice to buy a Lola or a March.
30:14
Lola was really well engineered, and my engineer decided to go with Lola's.
30:21
The problem is that March was built by Adrian Newey.
30:25
It was designed by Adrian Newey, who was young at the time, developing, but he did a very good aerodynamic car.
30:34
So we were fighting against a car designed by Adrian Newey, which was so much superior than the Lola's.
30:42
I got so frustrated in that year that I just decided to come back to Europe the following year.
30:49
So I talked to my engineer, Gary Anderson, at the time.
30:53
And I said, Gary, I want to go back to Europe.
30:55
I want to race there again.
30:57
You know, I can't take this situation here that we've been through this year.
31:03
He said, next year will be different.
31:04
I said, well, if I don't go back to Europe, I'll never drive Formula One again.
31:10
So I'm going to give it a shot.
31:13
How are you going to do it?
31:14
I said, I don't know.
31:15
But I'm going to go back to Europe with the money I have.
31:19
So I had made, in two years, I think I made $600,000.
31:23
So I had enough money to go back to Europe.
31:26
Are you a dad at this stage?
31:27
I'm trying to remember where you are in your life here.
31:29
When did you become, you know, did your, you know, from a private life standpoint, how was all that?
31:35
Are you going Europe?
31:37
Are you going America?
31:38
Are you going out?
31:39
Was, you know...
31:40
Well, I had enough money to keep going personally from the monies I made in Japan and with Rick Carlos.
31:50
And I just didn't have a drive.
31:53
So Gary said to me, you know what?
31:55
A team, a guy that worked with me before, he's put a team together.
32:01
I'm going to ask him if he wants to run you in one race.
32:05
And as it happened, the Birmingham Grand Prix in Formula 3000 in 1985 is near the shop of this gentleman that had the team.
32:19
So he told Gary I could come and do the Birmingham Grand Prix, and the dates were not a problem.
32:26
Rick Gallas allowed me to go.
32:28
So I showed up in England at Birmingham.
32:33
Ron Toranakis running the Route Honda team.
32:37
He looks at me and says, what are you doing here?
32:39
I say, well, I want to come back, Ron.
32:43
Are you racing?
32:43
Yeah, I'm racing this weekend only.
32:46
But the reason I'm doing this is because I want to find a drive for next year, a full time.
32:52
But Roberto, you made good money.
32:55
You settled in America.
32:57
People recognize you now.
32:59
You have your life in racing in America, guarantee.
33:03
Are you crazy?
33:05
I say, no, I want to drive here because I want to try to make the Formula One again.
33:12
Well, you're driving for me in 3000 if you want next year.
33:16
And we shook hands and I got a drive with Ron Tornak in 87.
33:23
And the same thing happened in 84.
33:26
I didn't tell you the story, but in 84, I borrowed money to do a full season in Formula 3 with the best team.
33:36
And the best team was Dick Bennett.
33:38
Bennett, yeah, yeah.
33:39
Who ran Ayrton and all sorts over time.
33:41
Yeah, everybody that drove with Dick.
33:44
Kiwi, legendary Kiwi.
33:46
Everybody that drove with Dick did really well.
33:50
I got home really well with Dick.
33:52
And I think he was the one...
33:54
That's my opinion, very strong opinion, who has helped Senna to become a much better driver.
34:03
Okay.
34:03
Because the times I've seen him spending with Senna in the corners, talking about details and things, Dick was so detail into things, and I think he improved him a lot.
34:15
Gotcha.
34:16
Okay.
34:17
Anyway, so I had in my mind, I've done all these things.
34:21
If I do a full season in Formula 3 that I hadn't done it yet, because my second season in Formula 3 was only half a season as well, I might have a shot in Formula 1 again.
34:36
So I borrow money, I sign with Dick at the end of 83 for 84,
34:43
And we went testing in Traxton.
34:47
Ron Toranac is testing the Formula 2 cars.
34:50
He turns around to me and says, what are you doing here?
34:52
I said, well, I borrowed some money.
34:55
I'm going to race with Dick.
34:57
And I'm going to try to do Formula 3 the proper way that I've never done before.
35:02
Roberto, you didn't want to drive for me.
35:07
I have a seat for you in Formula 2.
35:09
I said, Ron, why didn't you tell me before?
35:14
So he looked at me.
35:16
Oh, now it's too late.
35:17
I said, hang on, Ron.
35:19
You're good mates with Dick.
35:22
Why don't you go and have a word with him and see if you can negotiate me coming to drive for you?
35:27
Then I wouldn't have to borrow money to go racing.
35:31
So he went, talked to Dick.
35:32
Dick kindly accepted it.
35:36
And I started to race for Rome Toronac with a contract signed with Dick Bennett.
35:44
The times in your career where you have maybe raced for some teams and there's a setback and you always find a way.
35:54
And there's a great story.
35:56
You'll have to fill in the blanks here for me.
35:58
I may be joining dots and I'm fast forwarding a little bit here.
36:01
But you get to, I think, you go back to F3000 at one point in the late 80s.
36:08
85, which I was just mentioning before, yeah.
36:11
Okay, and you get to a point where…
36:13
You were almost going race to race.
36:15
You earned enough money from the winning check with one to get to the next.
36:20
That was 88.
36:20
88, was it?
36:21
That was 88 this season I won the championship.
36:24
And you meet, ultimately, you meet Marco Piccinini, don't you?
36:28
Yeah.
36:29
Well, yeah, that was 88.
36:32
At the end of 88, well, basically, I've done all that.
36:35
I've done 84 with Ron Toranaki in Formula 2.
36:39
85, I went to America.
36:42
86, I did a full season in the US.
36:46
In 87, Ron signed me to drive his route Honda team in Formula 3000.
36:53
And we almost won the championship.
36:55
At the end of 85, this team comes to me that knew me from Formula 2, AGS.
37:03
They used to have a Formula 2 car that was very fast in 84.
37:08
And they used to see me driving, they used to know how good I was to set up a car.
37:14
And he, the guy there, Frederick Denor, he came to me sometime towards the end of 87 and asked me if I would drive for AGS.
37:31
I said, but I'm still driving a Formula 3000, fighting for the championship.
37:37
Ron Toranac did not allow me to do that together.
37:41
So he said, Roberto...
37:44
We have been qualifying with Pasco Fabri, the AGS car, because there's not enough cars in Formula One.
37:54
It's only a full grid, basically.
37:56
So although we're much slower than everybody else, we qualify because the number of cars from Monza,
38:09
Cologne is going to come into Formula One, and we're going to stay out, most likely, in every event.
38:17
We want you to drive for us.
38:20
I said, can't do, but, you know, once my 3,000th season finished, I can.
38:26
So we decided to do Japan and Australia at the end of 87.
38:33
Then he said, but we still need you to test the car.
38:36
I said, okay, let's find a test.
38:38
And we found the test day.
38:40
I improved that car testing in Polarica in one day, about four seconds with the setup that I used to do in Formula 2.
38:50
And the car was quite quick at the end.
38:54
So we, they left the T car in Paul Ricard and they went to one of the races with Pascal Fabry.
39:06
And on Friday, they had not qualified.
39:09
The same day as I was testing in Paul Ricard.
39:13
At that evening, the engineer took the shocks and springs that I had set up their car.
39:20
to the Grand Prix and Pascoe Fabri qualified the car.
39:25
So they were really happy.
39:26
They thought I was a hero.
39:28
So you must race with us.
39:30
I said, no worries.
39:31
We'll get there.
39:33
So I qualified in Japan, qualified in Australia, and I finished sixth, giving them a point on the championship, which gave them free transportation the following year.
39:49
So they say, here you are, Roberto, sign here.
39:51
You're going to drive for us next year.
39:53
We're going to build a new car.
39:55
Everything is going to be well designed.
39:57
You can have some input if you like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
40:01
So we did all that.
40:04
I went to Patrick Head at Williams, and I asked Patrick if there would be some kind of information that he could give it to the team free, free.
40:18
to help us have a good car for the following season.
40:21
So Patrick, he was so happy with me that some testing I did for him.
40:27
Also, I believe in 87 at Zeltweg, I did three days of testing for Williams after the race for Honda.
40:37
And that was the most amazing car I ever driven in my life.
40:41
Really?
40:41
It was a car that Nelson won the championship in 87.
40:46
And Nigel Munster was driving as well.
40:50
And with that...
40:51
the time I did the day after the race or three days after the race, I could have qualified, I think fifth and the grump in the, in the, in the grid and the lap times equaled all the Nelson's lap time for the race as well.
41:08
So they were really impressed with me.
41:10
It was a fantastic three day testing.
41:13
Anyway, I went to Pat Patrick had, he kindly gave me some,
41:17
about the rear floor extractor angle, which was 15 degrees, and he gave me all the measurements.
41:28
I passed it on to AGS.
41:30
They built this car, which was a phenomenal car in Monte Carlo.
41:33
They did really well.
41:35
Anyway, in February 88, which I'm getting ready to do,
41:42
I was getting ready physically in Brazil to go racing in 88 for AGS.
41:48
I had no phone calls from them, and it was already at the end of February.
41:53
So I went to my friend's workshop in Brazil and asked him to use the phone.
41:58
Called the AGS people.
42:00
They said, oh, Roberto, we'd like you to come up here and we need to talk about a few things.
42:07
So I said, well, can we talk on the phone?
42:09
He said, well, no, no, we want you here.
42:11
I said, okay.
42:13
So I went to my friend at AGS.
42:16
the free air tickets from the volleyball team.
42:22
And they gave me a ticket to go to England.
42:24
It was a ticket that you could travel the whole Europe if you wanted to.
42:30
And I went to meet this guy at the Nice airport.
42:35
He had just purchased AGS from the original owner, Monsieur Henry.
42:44
And this guy, his name was Gerbert Tello.
42:47
And he sat down with me in this bar in this airport,
42:54
I don't know if it was coincidence, but it was the same bar that Fla. Fla.
43:00
Fired me from Benetton.
43:04
So he sat with me and said, Roberto, we only run one car.
43:14
We're going to have to run a French driver because of French sponsors.
43:19
I'm sorry for everything you've done for us, but we're going to have to have a French driver in the team.
43:28
I said, come on, February.
43:30
I said, can't do anything.
43:32
So I changed the tickets.
43:34
I went back to England before going back to Brazil.
43:40
I went to Rome, Toranac.
43:41
I said, Rome, this has happened.
43:44
Can I still drive for you in 88?
43:46
I said, Roberto.
43:46
I said,
43:49
My team is closed.
43:50
I've got my two drivers.
43:52
Everything is settled.
43:53
It's February.
43:54
The first race is in two weeks.
43:57
Are you crazy?
43:59
I said, no, yeah, well, I'm desperate.
44:03
No?
44:04
Do you know of anybody who said no?
44:07
So I called my...
44:10
Old engineer in Indy cars, Gary Anderson, who was now working for that team that he arranged me to race Birmingham for.
44:21
So he's now the engineer at the Formula 3000 team Bromley Motorsport based near Birmingham in Kings Bromley.
44:35
in Leachfield near Kings, probably.
44:39
And Gary said to me, Roberto, we have a team.
44:43
We've got two mechanics, one truck driver, myself, and the owner.
44:47
We don't have any drivers, and we need drivers with sponsorship.
44:54
But if you find a free car and a free engine that
45:02
we could maybe run you for three races.
45:07
I say, are you sure?
45:08
I say, yes, but you gotta find a free car and a free engine.
45:12
So I went to all the factories.
45:15
They, in other than Toranac, well, Toranac couldn't give me a car.
45:24
March was able to give me a car, but it would take them four races to deliver one.
45:31
Lola the same.
45:34
I went to Raynard, who had just built this new wind tunnel car, and they had a car on their showroom.
45:44
So I went to Adrian Raynard, I said, please, Adrian, my situation's this, this, this, blah, blah, blah, blah.
45:51
And he looked at me and said, Roberto, I would very much like to help you, but this is a business.
45:58
And I'm already helping the best people,
46:01
British driver since Graham Hill, Johnny Herbert.
46:06
He's driving for Eddie Jordan, and I'm behind him, helping him.
46:12
He's been testing since September.
46:15
We've been the fastest cars in all the testing.
46:21
Why am I going to help you as well spend extra money to fight against us?
46:27
Plus, it's two weeks before the first race.
46:30
You haven't tested the car.
46:33
You know, you don't have much chance.
46:37
This is ambitious, isn't it?
46:39
Like, really, you know?
46:41
Yes.
46:42
So I had to go.
46:45
And I'm driving to the airport thinking my career is complete finished, finally.
46:52
And I'm crying my head off like a baby that lost his mother.
46:58
Strong crying.
47:00
And I stopped in the little shaft not long after to make a phone call to the team to explain that I couldn't get the car.
47:13
And that was it.
47:15
So Gary Johnson says to me, Roberto, stop crying and go back and get that car.
47:23
I say, how?
47:24
I say, I don't care.
47:27
Go back, find a way to get that car.
47:30
I say, don't say anything.
47:33
Just go back and do it.
47:36
Otherwise, I don't have a job either, he says to me.
47:40
I say, okay.
47:41
So I drive back.
47:42
Factory's closed.
47:44
I decided to sleep in the car because I didn't have much money.
47:47
I had to save now.
47:49
I started the safe mode.
47:51
Yes.
47:51
So I just slept in the car.
47:57
But I had a lot of time to think.
48:00
So I came up with an idea in the morning, and I asked to meet the sales manager, Rick Gorn.
48:10
Rick at the time was good partners with Adrian Reynard, and I went to him and said, I want to buy your car.
48:19
Oh yeah, you came here yesterday.
48:21
Adrian told me you wanted a free car, but okay, great.
48:25
No problem.
48:26
We talked for an hour.
48:27
He looked at me and say, how you want to pay?
48:31
I looked straight on his eyes, and I say, at the end of the year.
48:36
And then all his smile went away.
48:38
I say, Roberto, you made me waste an hour of my time to buy a car with no money.
48:45
I say, no, I've got the money at the end of the year.
48:50
How does that work?
48:51
It's very simple, Rick.
48:53
I'll take your car, I race, I sell it after the season, give you the money.
48:59
Oh, Roberto, we can't do that.
49:02
We need money now, or at least find a bank that will give you a guarantee for that money.
49:10
So I called Nelson.
49:12
I said, Nelson, this is my situation, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
49:16
Would you help me?
49:18
I just want you to guarantee it.
49:21
I might be able to sell it.
49:22
You never will have to spend money.
49:25
It's worth people noting here because you guys are like brothers, you knew you could always rely on him in that way and that if it ever really, really went to shit –
49:40
He would support you.
49:42
But you tried not to rely on that, I think.
49:44
Indeed.
49:46
And then Nelson says to me, okay, what about if you can't sell the car or if you crash the car?
49:52
I say, Nelson, I will work on your boat the rest of my life, if necessary, B, until we settle that bill.
50:02
How does that sound?
50:04
He say, are you sure?
50:05
Because I'm going to make you work.
50:07
I say, no problem.
50:09
That's a lot of money.
50:10
I said, no problem.
50:12
So give the phone to that shitty guy there.
50:17
So I gave the phone to Rick.
50:20
And Rick, in two minutes, you can take the car.
50:25
But no engine.
50:25
You got your chassis.
50:27
Hang on.
50:27
So I sat down again.
50:31
And then Rick said, now what?
50:32
I said, Rick, I know I'm against the odds.
50:36
Yeah.
50:37
I'm starting late.
50:39
Championship starts in two weeks.
50:42
Haven't tested a car ever.
50:46
Your drivers have been testing since September.
50:50
They're all very fast.
50:52
But if I win the championship, you're going to sell lots of cars the following year, aren't you?
50:57
Yes.
50:59
Would it be worth if I win the championship to bring your car back and not pay?
51:04
Yes.
51:06
He said, well, you're not going to win the championship anyhow.
51:10
Yeah, why not?
51:11
We can do that.
51:12
So we shook hands.
51:15
I called the engineer, Gary Anderson.
51:17
I said, Gary, I got the car.
51:20
And then his answer was, you haven't got the engine yet.
51:24
So I had an idea.
51:27
I remember John Nicholson from Nicholson McLaren Engine, who had built us engine to win the Australian Grand Prix.
51:35
He was very happy with me.
51:37
Went to see him near Heathrow.
51:40
the same day.
51:42
And he said, Roberto, no problem.
51:43
I want, I've been wanting to get into this series.
51:47
And you helped me a lot in, in getting customers in Australia by winning the Australian Grand Prix with my engines.
51:56
No problem.
51:58
Anyway, first race was no good.
52:00
Second race, we finished fourth.
52:03
Third race, it was a streets of pole.
52:05
I was really good at pole, and I won the race.
52:09
In front of John Alessi.
52:11
And...
52:15
I was sad.
52:16
It was my last race.
52:17
What am I going to do now?
52:18
Yeah.
52:20
The owner comes to me on the way back from the price giving thing, and they say, Roberto, they gave me this check for first place.
52:32
I did not expect this.
52:35
I've got enough money here to race the next race in Silverstone near the house if you like to.
52:41
I said, sure, let's do that.
52:43
So we went to Silverstone.
52:45
We won Silverstone.
52:46
We got another check.
52:48
We went to Monza.
52:50
We won Monza, we got another check.
52:53
I was hired by Ferrari to develop their first ever same automatic gearbox in Formula One, which I did 55 days from, I believe, September, October to March.
53:12
And the car won its first race in Brazil with that gearbox.
53:17
And I still remember a situation, a Ferrari, that they used to break this engine on the dyno, and there was a million pieces, and they didn't know what first broke to try to fix it.
53:32
So driving one of these engines, developing the gearbox, one day I had a vibration, and I shut everything off and pressed the clutch very quickly.
53:43
And the engineers did not like what I've done, but I said, look, I shut it off because it's going to break.
53:52
There's a vibration that something is happening inside.
53:56
And then they looked at all the details on the data.
53:59
They couldn't see anything.
54:00
They were just about to start the engine.
54:03
I had to fight the engineer not to start the engine.
54:06
I said, please wait.
54:07
I'm going to go inside and speak with the boss.
54:10
I convinced the boss that there was something wrong, that he had to take that engine out.
54:15
And check it.
54:16
and checked it.
54:17
So a couple of days later, I got a phone call to come to Ferrari factory and they gave me a Ferrari F40, which was in the development stages in 1988, for me to drive two weeks anywhere I wanted as a bonus for helping them finding out what was going to break on the engine and fix it before it broke.
54:43
Crazy.
54:43
Crazy.
54:44
A few little footnotes here as we move along.
54:47
Firstly, that podium, I think, in Monza, you've got a tap on the race suit.
54:53
You're spraying the champagne.
54:55
Someone says to you, hey, here's a business card.
54:57
Please call this number.
54:59
You waited a few days and your wife was almost about to wash the race suit and you found the business card and you rang it and you talk with Pee Wee.
55:07
And this is Marco Piccinini, who is number two to Enzo, basically, at this stage, isn't he?
55:12
He was the man.
55:13
At the time, Marco Piccinini did everything that had to... Everything for Ferrari, Formula One team, he was the man because Anzo was already a little sick and Marco used to do everything for him.
55:30
And the development, that role that you took with him, the development of that gearbox, that is when you look at the timeline, I mean, they've been around Formula One for so long and they've had many special moments, right?
55:41
But that was a...
55:42
pivotal thing that they made, a very, very important thing that you helped to develop.
55:48
And I have in my house the very, very first same automatic steering wheel ever built.
55:54
Fantastic.
55:56
Just as a trophy for it.
56:00
One day I'll sell it to pay for my grandkids' college maybe.
56:04
So...
56:07
So that year after Monza, we still have a few races.
56:10
I'm on the lead of the championship now.
56:15
Ferrari signed me up.
56:17
I made good money to become a test driver for Ferrari, became a Marlboro guy, and they gave me money to finish the season in 3000.
56:28
And we won the championship two races before the end, which was unique up to then.
56:34
We won three races on the road, which was the hat trick that never been done, should have been done in 87, but I didn't do it.
56:43
And I was able to do it in 88.
56:48
And we won a total of four races, which was a record in Formula 3000 to that point.
56:55
So at the end of the year, I took the car back to Rick Gorn.
56:59
I say, thank you very much, Rick.
57:02
I called Nelson.
57:03
I said, well, I'm not going to work on the boat.
57:05
And I don't need your money.
57:07
And better yet, I'm not going to work on the boat.
57:10
So we'll leave that for next time.
57:13
So Nelson was very pleased with me.
57:16
And things moved on.
57:20
And then the following year, I had a Formula One deal that Ferrari signed me up for.
57:25
And I could have had the F1 position with Ferrari had not Enzo died and Piccinini changed, left Ferrari.
57:39
The new management for Ferrari from Fiat came and took over the Ferrari Formula One factory.
57:50
And...
57:51
This guy, they used to call him Hollywood because he always had these dark glasses, Fiorio.
58:01
He had to change everything that Piccinini had done.
58:06
From John Barnard to all the test drivers, all the drivers, everything he changed that Piccinini did.
58:20
From pioneering a significant change and the immense satisfaction in that to being reminded that it's a changed business.
58:28
That is the end of part two of my feature episode with Roberto Moreno.
58:32
Now, we don't often do this, but there is a part three for you.
58:36
He's a talker and there's still some ripper yarns to come that he wants to share on F1, IndyCar and more.
58:42
When you're ready, head back to the library and hit the gas.
58:46
You won't be disappointed.