Latest / EL TREN DE LA VIDA / EL TREN DE LA VIDA 07-03-24

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EL TREN DE LA VIDA 07-03-24 · EL TREN DE LA VIDA

• 0:13
  Good morning, friends and friends, I am Julio Pérez and this is the
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  train of life, a radio adventure along the routes of the heart. I
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  want to invite you to travel with me and dream together in a better world,
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  a different world where men and women of good will can live in peace
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  and freedom. The train of life is a magaxine of good news and hope.
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  This is a radio time specially designed for people like you and like so
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  many truth seekers, of the only truth that can make us authentic free come
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  I invite you to travel with us on the safest train of all, which
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  will definitely take you to safe harbour. This is the train of life.
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  Well, very good morning, Spain, bon day, friends, from this
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  corner of the Iberian solar, of this mixture of cultures as fabulous as is
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  our dear Spain. From here, Julio Pérez, a communicator who has been
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  an impenitent traveller for many years, speaks to them. This morning we travel
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  together on the train of life Let' s go, ladies, yes,
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  gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, also because if there are there, they are
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  not in the cortijos, but in life, in everyday life, because here
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  we are already. The train has begun its departure. They know that when
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  we are in the station and we travel in bird and I travel with a
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  certain frequency in the bird usually more of Barcelona, Madrid and other points of
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  the Spanish geography, but when the train starts is almost imperceptible, you do
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  not realize and we are already going, And well, until it is already
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  taking sprint and you already realize, because the tunnels that are already before coming
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  out in the light of the day. But so is this traveling train and
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  it is perceptible, because we travel. It is like life itself is a
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  living parable. Life is a parable Look when you' re going in to
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  me, I really like the train. I remember those trains of old,
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  that I remember some long journey that I made as one of my older brothers
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  who already passed away, my brother Ginés. And we were going, because
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  it was a long trip. We were going to Andalusia, the Sevillian,
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  it looked like a train from those of the American West and then, well,
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  we were going on our feet. Only in a few moments people were
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  getting off. We could find the seat and wooden seats. Yeah, yeah,
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  farwest style, but well, this has changed a lot, of course,
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  no. And so, and when you go by train you enjoy the
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  company, sometimes pleasant or sometimes not so pleasant, but of people who are
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  around and you have a spontaneous conversation, you have a coffee, you read
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  a book, you are looking at the landscape, you get up, you
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  go a little to the bar, you come back, etcetera, etcetera.
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  You have and that you enjoy the trip. That' s life. You
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  have to enjoy the journey of life and don' t forget or live with
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  anxiety and anxiety and it seems that you can' t enjoy your family,
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  your friends, the family of faith also that you are an eternal family of
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  care. Eh, in addition, and also enjoy the good moments of life,
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  to like them and to have that ability to appreciate those moments, the
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  beauties of life, sometimes insignificant beauties and some not so insignificant, but very
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  attractive that life has, that has that miscellanea of colors that there is on
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  the horizon truth as a flowery field. And this morning, because we have
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  something very special, look we wanted to dedicate at least I thought I have
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  a very great affection for the gypsy people, since I have a knowledge,
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  especially Christian. I remember that shortly after I met Jesus in my youth and
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  discovered the church in my own neighborhood, in the Raval of Barcelona, I
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  discovered a pastor gypsy church such as Alfredo. I remember many years ago a
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  man, a man of faith, a man such and such, and I
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  was not taught in that line, but every time I went there, to
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  that place, on the street count the assault, for I about the Ramblas
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  of Barcelona and I went sometimes and caught my attention, his spirit, his
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  joy, his fervor and I was always blessed. Then I began to establish
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  contacts, as we have known many in their time, the snoring, the
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  tucho, the pelón that we had with us in our churches, all of
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  them, especially the snoring and the tucho a long time, many times Pichico,
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  a great friend, a friend of the soul. And then, for
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  so many others also Marvel Mudez in his time was more sporadic, but also
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  and he was an excellent preacher. And then, then, so many more,
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  for, evidently, the sysqueet and endless of people to the pelon that
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  we also had, to forgiveness, the pelon I have already told the Pelele
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  and also brother Pelele, who also had a close relationship with him, and
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  to so many others I no longer remember. Many names do not sell Juan
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  Ramón and others I no longer tell brothers like Sicus Carboney and endlessly there has
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  been a closeness and one and one affection. And not only a fondness,
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  but a great respect for Gypsy culture and rediscovering the values of Gypsy culture.
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  And, of course and above all, in the evangelic Christian world, the
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  gypsies have massively emigrated to the evangelical faith because it goes more with them,
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  it is more expressive, more spontaneous, more direct, without intermediaries, without
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  mysteries, no and without all that religious fetishism that exists in other cases.
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  And then, I discovered a lot of good things about them and of course
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  there I remember the brother yen who left with the lord or just with the
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  pandemic. He got married and couldn' t get over it. Just a
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  month before I was with him in Madrid in a meeting and I was happy
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  with a barbarity. We embraced each other very dearly, but so many brothers
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  and sisters and would remember this way on the march and how not our dear
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  guests this morning José Carmona, a man who is a charm of person,
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  for his affection, his empathy and, besides, his good doing, because
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  he is a man who you will already see, his book that we are
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  going to talk about today, that you have to know him, of Punjaba
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  Canarias, the whole history of the Gypsy people in general and then the history
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  in Spain and the Canary Islands as well. But you have to read this
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  book. This book is an essential document to learn about gypsy culture. Then
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  we also have José Carmona, a doctor of psychology, this morning. There
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  ' s nothing to see. You are of course the figures of Gitana,
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  the gypsy, have been arantemized many times, because there is a social stereotype,
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  but not the gypsies have anything to do with stories that say good is
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  that crime and crime is in the world of payo and in the gypsy world
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  and in the Latin American world and in the world everywhere. The fact is
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  that the living conditions must be analyzed by this group, which has been very
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  marginalized over many years and also in Spain until now, because there are voices
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  that have been talking and have been putting the thing up to category of recognition,
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  of social importance, a social minority signified, and that, well,
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  they are changing many things, but still have to change and put to make
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  a bet a day. Well, José Carmona is an expert. He is
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  a professor at the University of La Laguna. They have several needs is,
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  a name, an intellectual like the cup of a pyro. He has also
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  written Christian books such as La Cruz, a great book that we will also
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  talk about this and well, we will also enjoy these Gypsy intellectuals that we
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  have with us today, which are some of so many. There are many
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  in Spain professionals, some are politicians who militate in some parties and are also
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  in citizens in the Popular Party, some in some other party. Then we
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  also have Antonio Carmona, writer, great theologian wherever they are. He holds
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  a degree in theology and also a doctorate in divinities from several Spanish and American
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  universities in the United States. Author of the two very interesting books as well.
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  Freedom for the forgotten is one of his previous books. But today we
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  ' ll talk about a book you' ve just published to me. It
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  ' s called The Bible. He makes a memorandum and synthesis of the history
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  of the Bible, which is a book for those who know nothing and to
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  make a bet to the day on how the Bible has come to us.
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  Read Antonio Carmona' s book. It' s magnificent. It' s
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  great, well, let' s talk to him. It is a pleasure
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  and an honor to have you on the train of life. And of course
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  not, because my admired and dear Séfora Vargas, because she is a friendly
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  fighting woman, with a character, but the character, that good character that
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  has to be determined, resolutional, determined. And so a worker is speaking
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  on the occasion of International Working Women' s Day, for she who has
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  written this also this very important book about getting out of freedom, the cry
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  of freedom. I have here the title of the book that I like,
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  The Cry of Freedom. It' s the book. It is a book
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  on the emancipation of women, of gypsy women, that a culture, because
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  in some archaic aspects. As far as women are concerned as well and in
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  other respects, but as she has been able to give some tones, emancipators
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  and also women in general, then we will be talking to her, but
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  also her book, which also speaks of a story of the Gypsy people for
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  Damis dumis, who understand, for initiates, for people who have to know
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  basically, this book is impressive. I think it is a book with many
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  historical references, very well documented and then focused on stories that reach your soul.
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  You get to very concrete stories of the Gypsy people during the soa Nazi
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  genocide, that the gypsies were exterminated massively along with the Jews, thousands of
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  gypsies were killed and also by the Nazi genocide, as well as homosexuals and
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  people who were discarded for the Nazis of humanity. Well, then, we
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  have these three champions because they are truly people with a combative, fighting spirit.
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  They have a spirit when you talk to them, as long as you
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  get it. José Carmona, doctor of psychology. Antonio Carmona, also a
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  doctor of theology and writer. Both writers and also gone rod is that she
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  is a lawyer and is also a writer and lecturer. This conference these days
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  in many forums and tomorrow, even on the occasion of International Women' s
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  Day, will be on several programs. So much is on Spanish television radio
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  programs, the Burgués ester program. It' s also going to be at
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  night, Burguese Time, et cetera, et cetera. It is with us
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  that we also make a note of the issue of women, also with it
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  of International Women' s Day. Well, then, all this and more
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  stuff, good music, the music we' re going to hear. We
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  will start with a music my friend Alex, who is in the sound control,
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  who watch it sing by Roberto Hernández and Juan Ramón, Juan Ramón de
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  Rocío, and then it is a composition made by Roberto Hernández. The grace
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  of God. Bellisim This song I love. Both of you. They both
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  sing it, both of them. Then we will have asiks Carboney also one
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  of his compositions to the system how we will not listen this morning also that
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  they are very dear and well known voices among us and I invite you to
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  travel with me this morning on the train of life. Come on. You
• 16:26
  can send your message through our Facebook. Through our Facebook, entering between your
• 16:32
  double- pointed see the train of life. Point is the train of life.
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  Point is Remember that in this way you collaborate with us. Tell us
• 16:41
  your impressions, ask us and participate actively. We want to meet you,
• 16:48
  we want to meet you. Enter our website three his month double point train
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  of life. Together it is and follow us through Facebook. Through Facebook your
• 16:56
  God' s grace is like the wind and it reaches you in a moment
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  embraces you, take the hand of feeling forgive something happens in you. The
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  grace of God that they brown the hair a token of his love is like
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  that du deserved. You know I arrested him, but we didn' t
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  explain it. The grace of God does not come sora, accompanying the hours
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  the compassion of per And if it does not wander the memory and remember your
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  story, will know that God grace led you to God surrenders that which gag
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  of God. He said what came on the way open to eternity, not
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  meringo, but vera God. The grace of God is like the wind.
• 19:26
  It hits you in a moment, hugs your heart and comes to you they
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  take you off the manna, you feel forgiven and something happens. God'
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  s grace is his jute. I want to caress the pebo a token of
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  his love, like that domimbecio. You know what has been received, but
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  they do not explain it, but God' s grace does not come alone,
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  it accompanies my forgiveness at all times and if you do not miss the
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  memory and you remember your story, you will know that God to God,
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  Grace, the day brings what is not and what grace of God said does
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  not come heart, whether it comes from God, the way opened to the
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  Esther by the seafaring see God give gift to burn radia of God said,
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  the delected Heart, grace of God, the way opened to the Eternity because
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  I deserve mere Godheads these things have been given to us from his eternal,
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  power and deity. Pure Grace. Pray you don' t come hour his
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  promise, until he comes, until today closer than ever. We invite you
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  to the second edition of this Interdenominational Congress aimed at the whole body of Christ
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  in Spain and Europe, which will take place from 26 to 28 April in
• 22:34
  the Fira de Reus, Tarragona. They will be with us, international speakers,
• 22:41
  Mariano sen Egual, Benjamin Núñez and Marcos brunet To want wamado bu plotted
• 22:55
  for more information, You can enter our www ww website until he comes.
• 23:02
  It is either to write to the six, one, six, eight,
• 23:07
  eight, one, five, seven, one, six hundred, sixteen,
• 23:11
  eight hundred and eighty- one, five hundred and seventy- one and to
• 23:15
  consult prices and registration modalities. Don' t miss the opportunity to participate in
• 23:19
  this great call until he comes. Until he comes or that prunes your home
• 23:26
  before your glory and lower your plowing well and every eye will see if you
• 23:44
  want to visit our website the wwwww. The train of life. The train
• 23:51
  of life, Post or, ladies and gentlemen, are we traveling on the
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  train of life? Here, in the master car, where we always welcome
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  good friends. You know you say that journalists are accountants of things. Yes,
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  it' s true, sometimes good things and sometimes not so good,
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  sometimes true things and other uncertain things in the worst cases. But we have
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  to talk about a town that is between a millennial flight, such as the
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  gypsy people, and we are going to talk to one of them, a
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  test gypsy, plus a man who is an intellectual, a man with a
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  great academic background and a doctor in theology, forgiveness in psychology. In theology
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  we will later have Antonio Carmona, but we have José Carmona, the doctor
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  in psychology and also writer of several books, one of them very interesting,
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  from punjat to the Canary Islands, the history of the Gypsy people and goes
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  through many historical challenges, including Spain and also the Canary Islands, also where
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  he currently resides. And well, they' re going to realize in their
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  tone, in their knowledge of the subject, because the importance, the relevance
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  of gypsy history and gypsy culture and we' re going to talk to him
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  and I want to welcome José Carmona. Good morning, Jose, good morning.
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  Greeting you for July and in principle, I can thank you for the
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  opportunity and congratulations for those thirty years being in the air, making a difference
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  and thanking you for the opportunity you give me as well as my colleagues Antonio
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  Carmona and went on a journey to make that costly work visible that we are
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  doing. People who are of Roma ethnicity, but who, besides sharing that
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  ethnic nuance, I think we have a superior identity, because it is more
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  transcendent and is that we are evangelical Christians redeemed by the work of Jesus Christ
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  in the Court of Calvary. And I believe that if the three of us
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  are in this program, we thank you mainly that it has been moved by
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  God, but it is thanks to the unconditional work that the evangelical people have
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  done, for the inclusion of the Gypsy people, because if it had not
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  been for the Gospel of Jesus Christ, without doubting either Séphora, Antonio or
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  a servant, we would be here. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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  Well, honorable to go about this, because I think that' s
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  true, that we have to give glory to our good God, because that
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  ' s where our there originates makes sense, our history of each one in
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  particular. Then we can see identities of this or that background. But Jesus
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  Christ gives us identity and also makes us love life in its best version.
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  Yes, yes, well, hear about topics talk to us a little bit
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  about your formation, your trajectory, your current performance, so that our listeners
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  remember those who did not hear you before and those who make a reminder tell
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  us about you from your family. A little good, because I belong to
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  that generation of gypsies that my family know about a hundred years that we no
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  longer live in the Peninsulary, our most remote origins. According to research carried
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  out by my cousins, We come, therefore, all of what is the
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  part of the Granadina alpujarra, we descend to the archada Malagueña and from there
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  my great- grandmothers, certainly that grandmothers, also of Antonio de Arbona,
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  go to Amelidia and our family has always been, therefore, a saleswoman of
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  very disturbing clothes. We arrived in Canaria. In the case of my generation,
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  we were born in Argentina and there the Evangelical Church Philadelphia is the one
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  who owes much and to those pioneers the Gospel begins in the year seventy-
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  six, which I was only one and a half years old, and then
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  in the year eighty- three, already nine years old, because we are
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  in it comes to us. I went to second grade. I practically learn
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  to read with the Bible and when I am nineteen years old, I am
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  already a pastor and we start here in the Canary Islands. Thanks also to
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  among them, Antonio de Argona, who is a cousin of mine and is
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  older than me a couple of years, and to an uncle we both shared,
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  who today is in the presence of Mr Juan Maldonado, and other friendly
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  pastors. We started studying at Saving. The fact is that I really learn
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  to write thanks to the work that he knows about the Center for Biblical Research
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  of Canaria, with José Manuel Díaz Yane and very linked to Barcelona, because
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  there was Pedro Pusperl, Bernardo Sánchez, that magnificent generation that God has given
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  us. And thanks to them and because I learn to write. The point
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  is, I graduated in two years high school social work. It has already
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  been a very accelerated race, because it has been the grace of God.
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  I can say that both Séfora and Antonio a server. While it is true
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  that there are many inclusion programmes for the people of Mexico, none of the
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  three of us have been part of those programmes. We are the fruit of
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  the effort of our family and the support of the Christian people, who have
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  believed in the transformation of people and who know that education is the most powerful
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  weapon that can transform society. And for one thing, we are recognized as
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  the people of the book. The Christian people are the people of the book,
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  and it is that all revolve around us of Jesus Christ and the legacy
• 30:23
  of Christ, the message of Christ. While it is true that we have
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  transcendent mystical experiences, that the Holy Spirit is real, but our faith is
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  based on a historical fact, by a book that has two thousand years of
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  survival with the greatest persecutions and that in none of the attempts have been able
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  to stop it. And that has come to us and transformed us and for
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  us it is a pride. Well said, it is an injection of self
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  - esteem to know that we are the result of those principles, of the
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  principles of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. What a beautiful synthesis of your history
• 31:03
  and your family we celebrate. Well, there' s this last book.
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  We will talk about the other also that is interesting, the Cross, but
• 31:15
  the one from Punjab to Punhat to the Canary Islands, the history of the
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  Gypsy people, that of Arbert Box, which can be found in Amazon.
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  I imagine not yes, the book right now we were modifying, because the
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  idea of this book I am not a historian. My training is social work
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  and I am in social sciences, in social sciences, in the elaboration of
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  the thesis, in my cocon as a scientist, who is really a social
• 31:44
  researcher, is what I do. I have a personal self- discovery with
• 31:49
  my gypsy identity, but I discover that in the Canary Islands neither the majority
• 31:56
  society knows the history of the gypsy people. And the saddest thing is that
• 31:57
  the gypsy people know the most important elements of their leader Meri their symbol,
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  that is, the history of the gypsy people is unknown not only to the
• 32:08
  majority society, but also to the gican people. So, in this elaboration
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  of thesis and thanks to the lord the opportunities that I have to work as
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  a researcher, cultural promoter and working for the inclusion of the Gypsy people,
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  because of all the cuts that have been made, the end- of-
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  grade works, scientific publications, thesis works, because then I have the initiative,
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  with the support of the institutions with which I work at the moment,
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  with the Cabildo de Tenerife, thanks to the Federation of Rome BAX, to
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  make a historical compilation, which is not the most exhautive research, if it
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  has a clearly scientific character, because what we want to demonstrate is that the
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  Gypsy people, a canarian, is here in force since the seventeenth century,
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  since the beginning of the twentieth century, is centered and sadly the Gypsies that
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  we are in shared Canary Islands are lucky with the rest of the Canaries,
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  that we are ultra peripheral and in the great national research, like the national
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  housing survey. We didn' t show up the relational health surveys by the
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  gypsies. Nor do the state plans come then, because the Gypsy people are
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  a people who are settled in the Canary Islands and are part of that history,
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  because it was opportune to take them out In principle it has been free.
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  Which happens that in order to be able to hang it and give it
• 33:32
  matidor diffusion in some places, they are putting it in sales. We recommend
• 33:35
  that you do not pay, because we have all the channels so that you
• 33:37
  can download it in the digital version for free. One of the very important
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  things because for me this book is important, because, in addition to promoting
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  gypsy culture is the key, it has been the door to entering the social
• 33:53
  sphere and now we are also working on a second research with brothers and sisters,
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  friends and friends are doing end- of- grade work, since I
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  am linked to Benia Docenti and to teaching in the degree of social work of
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  the University of La Laguna, because the gypsy Canarian people are culturally evangelical.
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  So, while here the work of the air of evangelical religious teaching hardly small
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  to schools, we are having opportunity, through the history of the Gypsy people,
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  from that anthropological and cultural element, to share as the Gypsy people is
• 34:30
  an evangelical people and that really the work of inclusion of the Gypsy people unselfishly
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  without expecting anything. In return, giving their lives with blood and sweat and
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  tear, to the pastors and evangelical pastors, because all the programs, behind
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  all the state programs that there are municipal, autonomous, we are already talking
• 34:53
  about public suspensions, people who work for the gypsies, but also home and
• 34:59
  live thanks to that work. But if there are figures to be highlighted are
• 35:05
  pastors, those factors, those families who have gone to English, places to
• 35:10
  preach open church, they have acted as social mediators, they have acted as
• 35:16
  psychologists, they are even acting as lawyers, as lawyers. I don'
• 35:23
  t know the factors. If I have to value a profession here on Earth,
• 35:29
  in pastoral function, because the factors are the only ones working twenty-
• 35:32
  four, seven, three hundred, sixty- five days. So that job
• 35:38
  we' re in, we want people to know it. That' s
• 35:44
  good. How interesting the origins you tell us about the implantation in the Canary
• 35:52
  Islands itself, where you reside of the Roma minority. But in your book
• 35:59
  begins to the origins of the Roma Roma Gypsy people and the Roma Roma Gypsy
• 36:06
  people. Also then in the Iberian Peninsula, make us a breviary of this
• 36:13
  origin. I explain. Let' s see that the prehistory of the Gypsy
• 36:19
  people goes back to Punjab. It' s an area in India Pakistan.
• 36:23
  It' s prehistory, that is, data. I understand that there are
• 36:30
  people who start from hypothesis theories, but for me, what does not have
• 36:32
  an empirical scientific value, I cannot contrast it by my scientific character. Then
• 36:37
  the prehistory of the gypsy people is India that formerly India would come from elsewhere.
• 36:43
  We don' t know that and there' s no scientific evidence that
• 36:46
  we can assert it. We would have to go into faith, but in
• 36:49
  scientific empirical matters it is India in its migration process. By the year a
• 36:53
  thousand begins this migration process, one thousand and four hundred and twenty- five.
• 36:58
  One thousand and four hundred and twenty- five arrive in the Iberian Peninsula
• 37:04
  and they begin there. The one thousand four hundred and ninety- two fought
• 37:07
  a series with the totalitarianism of Catholic kings. Jews are expelled, Muslims and
• 37:12
  gypsies are expelled. They do not agree to expel him because the gypsies,
• 37:17
  for one place, on the one hand, are the belt containing the Muslim
• 37:22
  invasion. They have also been the hand of works of the mines and were
• 37:27
  also the rowers of the Jalera. Then, from there, the Gypsy people
• 37:30
  fought against cloak and sword to maintain their identity and run the same fate as
• 37:36
  the evangelicals, the Casaña brothers, the Cyprian monks of Valera, almost of
• 37:42
  Reina. To say, we evangelicals and gypsies have run the same fate in
• 37:46
  the Iberian Peninsula. Total Catholic monarchic vitarism exterminates all the different if successively,
• 37:54
  for the Gypsy people in the 20th century, when there begins to be a
• 38:00
  little hope, that is where. That is where my family, who go
• 38:04
  to my light come to the Canary Islands, appears, and here, in
• 38:08
  Canaria, thanks to the interculturality of the Canary Islands Archipelago and also because in
• 38:14
  the year from the years at the end of the seventies, the Gypsy people
• 38:17
  embrace the Protestant faith. In this way the book so ends, we show
• 38:22
  how there are almost forty people who have overcome that which, compared to the
• 38:27
  rest of the majority society, is insignificant. But considering that school failure in
• 38:31
  Spain, those who are gypsies and gypsies researchers estimate it waiting. Ninety percent
• 38:39
  canary, we have one, we have girls who are lawyers, psychologist,
• 38:47
  social workers, we have boys who are nurses, Antonio who is a theologian,
• 38:52
  we have philosophers. And the most interesting thing is that more than eighty
• 38:55
  - five percent of them your parents are evangelical factors and that they share the
• 39:01
  Christian faith, because truly the transformation of those gypsies and gypsies who have overcome
• 39:08
  all the barriers of stereotypes, all the barriers of anti- Gypsy. The
• 39:15
  main driving force in most cases has to do with the principles of the Gospel
• 39:20
  of Jesus Christ, so I am more than convinced that if there is a
• 39:24
  philosophical element, no longer only spiritual, but theoretical philosophical, that can bring
• 39:31
  equality, that can bring interculturality, capacity for dialogue, they are the principles
• 39:38
  of Protestant reform, without taking away that there is any other extremist. Unfortunately,
• 39:45
  in all human groups there is. But I do believe and I am
• 39:49
  convinced that the Christian faith has all the elements to create an inclusive world.
• 39:54
  No doubt, without a doubt, you make a magnificent challenge, s synthesis
• 40:00
  to situate us. Then, from the origins that we see of the Gypsy
• 40:07
  people there in India, also the Roma Roma people in the Iberian Peninsula And
• 40:14
  then, evidently, the periods of persecution that have been very recurrent, because
• 40:21
  it is a characteristically persecuted people, very similar to the Jews. Yeah,
• 40:29
  we share, keep in mind that we' ve been sharing since a thousand
• 40:32
  four hundred and ninety- two. We begin with more than 250 pragmatics.
• 40:37
  Of course, it has also been forged by something that is the popular imagination.
• 40:42
  The figure of the gypsy has not only been persecuted by systemic lexs,
• 40:49
  but also the worst that we are currently fighting with them with the popular imaginary,
• 40:53
  bearing in mind that until not long ago and in fact, it is
• 40:58
  still collected as one of the sections is that the gigitano is synonymous with a
• 41:02
  trapper. Yeah, that image We' re fighting with that footage. On
• 41:07
  the one hand, the Gypsy people. All this has served to be an
• 41:10
  hermetic, indogamic people and, on the other hand, the popular imaginary,
• 41:14
  because it finds the evidence that they need to keep commenting on it. For
• 41:19
  me, what' s the saddest thing. The saddest thing is that the
• 41:21
  gypsy people as a people are a people who, from the sixties onwards,
• 41:25
  embrace Protestantism, Protestant reform, a very significant amount in the national territory.
• 41:34
  Since the gypsy churches exceed a thousand churches, they are in a position to
• 41:43
  be warmed up, i e they are in a position where they are rejected
• 41:50
  and self- rejected, i e they marginalize and self- marginate. Thus,
• 41:52
  considering this, the inclusion of the Roma people not only key slave from
• 41:58
  a social political perspective, but also is very important from a missionary perspective,
• 42:02
  bearing in mind that Spain is part of the great missionary investigations of the 70th
• 42:08
  window of the peoples less reached today by the Gospel of Jesus, when we
• 42:14
  have a thousand churches in which neither the majority society has access nor those churches
• 42:19
  are in a position to be inclusive, is the sad reality with which we
• 42:24
  are living. So, I dream that one day there will be that opening
• 42:31
  from both inside and outside, that is, that there is a change in
• 42:36
  the system, because if those churches and the inclusion of the Gypsy people is
• 42:40
  impossible. It would mean that a thousand churches would be incorporated to preach the
• 42:47
  gospel in Spain sun all the potential involves more than a thousand churches. It
• 42:52
  says it' s a fight. The inclusion of the gypsy people not only
• 42:54
  has a political, socio- economic and cultural scope, and what is also
• 43:00
  something that we evangelicals have to take very seriously, because I have no doubt
• 43:07
  that the gypsy people are one of the peoples with the greatest potential for the
• 43:12
  evangelization of Europe. In November of the two thousand twenty- two I was
• 43:17
  in Prague at a congress that is held by the nations, by the European
• 43:22
  Union, where they had digitized thirty- seven, of thirty- seven localities,
• 43:29
  but specifically twenty- eight of Europe and the most significant that more than
• 43:34
  seventy percent were evangelicals. Yes, if that public reflection and that I do,
• 43:37
  I can subscribe it with all the affection and love that I personally feel
• 43:42
  towards the Gypsy people and my friends of the soul. No, and I
• 43:47
  think a lot of us think the same way. But the self- inclusion,
• 43:52
  the self- inclusion of the one of whether the existing gypsy communities very
• 44:00
  immense of Philadelphia, but other branches also of networks of gypsy churches that are
• 44:06
  not Philadelphia, that exist also in Spain, have that sensitivity, that ability,
• 44:14
  of that grace, of inclusiveness, of being also heterogeneous churches. And
• 44:20
  this is a bomb. It' s a bomb to reach everyone, all
• 44:25
  kinds of people. True, it is given to a small extent. But
• 44:30
  suddenly, with the missionary vision of reaching the world, the surrounding world.
• 44:37
  In the churches that are of Gnia gypsy they are projected in all directions.
• 44:44
  This is true that you have thrown a bomb there, a proposal that is
• 44:51
  interesting and it is true that I am an ecclesiologist also because I am responsible
• 44:57
  for a network of churches, but church planter, saw them the pros and
• 45:02
  cons, both sociological ecclesiological that are given in favor and against the planting of
• 45:09
  churches. This is one of them. Yes, sir, therefore, we
• 45:14
  must take good note to go much further. But speaking in the book,
• 45:19
  you talk to us in your book about the gypsy cante origin of flamenco that
• 45:28
  I imagined had a lot to do with it. Of course, another of
• 45:31
  the stigmatizations that we are suffering from the Gypsy people has to do with singing,
• 45:37
  because I understand for myself the concept of redemption in the light of the
• 45:42
  Bible. I am a frustrated theologian, because I have never been able to
• 45:45
  study all the triology that I like, although the study is a graduate,
• 45:49
  I am a graduate in theology by the Seisving, but really my social work
• 45:54
  and the concept of redemption is that, after all, I am a panto
• 46:00
  ecnotis the mateo twenty- eight, eighteen, all ethnicities. We must be
• 46:02
  disciples of Jesus Christ the arts. The arts must be redeemed to give glory,
• 46:07
  for that is the purpose that Jesus Christ be all in all, all
• 46:12
  in him for his glory. So, if we see how the gypsy people
• 46:17
  express their culture, there are pictures that reveal it since the thousand six hundred
• 46:22
  works of art, the gypsy singing, the dance, the cultural expression.
• 46:28
  There is a mix in Baja Andalucía and we cannot say that flamenco is its
• 46:32
  own gypsy, but that main contribution is from the gypsy. What happens is
• 46:37
  that the saddest thing or a fellow Christian who is doing a very important job
• 46:42
  in prisons in Spain, called José Suárez el Torombo. We have shared a
• 46:49
  lot and considering that Seville, for example, has more than 300 places where
• 46:52
  flamenco is put. Sadly the artists who have taken flamenco to become patriotic mons
• 46:59
  of humanity, as we could speak of the families of the Revuelo, of
• 47:02
  the Raimundo, of the whole family of Reimundo, to the greatest remedy Amalia.
• 47:07
  Well, we' re talking about the pop of the flamenco top.
• 47:13
  They are, unfortunately, in a stigmatized neighborhood. The neighborhood is not the
• 47:16
  problem or its people. The problem is anti- Gypsy. And how is
• 47:21
  it possible for the pastor to have three hundred places where flamenco is exposed and
• 47:25
  that those people who are flamenco since birth are not occupying the best places.
• 47:31
  If we look right now at all the flamenco programs, where there is teaching
• 47:37
  of flamenco, where flamenco is taught, because flamenco is an eibe of Spain,
• 47:43
  that is to say, in the interior, the interior product group is
• 47:47
  surpassing 7%. And how is it possible that those gypsies who have that
• 47:52
  capacity to generate that culture, that service that branded Spain, are happening in
• 47:59
  those cities. If you' re going to hurt yourself, you can find
• 48:02
  the best guitarists who aren' t working and don' t have a decent
• 48:07
  life. You can find the singers who have given all their lives on board
• 48:10
  and haven' t even been working all their lives and don' t even
• 48:15
  qualify for a decent retirement. That' s what strikes me. It doesn
• 48:21
  ' t catch my eye if anyone' s gypsy singing space doesn' t
• 48:23
  kick. What strikes me is that if the gypsy has that capacity and that
• 48:28
  ability to do culture, it is from the redemption of that culture that they
• 48:35
  can have a dignified life. Working in a theatre, giving dance teachers to
• 48:40
  be the ones selling gypsy clothes, i e flamenco or a culture. How
• 48:46
  can we have a people who are going through need, who live marginality,
• 48:52
  when culturally it has an ability to produce economy that generates seven percent of a
• 48:58
  country. I' m not here. I' m not so interested in
• 49:00
  musical nuance. I' m interested in the transformational nuance. You imagine,
• 49:07
  pastor, if that gypsy and that gypsy were the owners of the galleries,
• 49:12
  where they put on the faralage costumes, all the cosmetics and the gypsy aesthetics,
• 49:16
  the food that is around, the academies that are around, the musical
• 49:22
  productions, the theaters, the villages that in ninety percent spread the Gospel of
• 49:28
  Jesus Christ. We would be the show button that the Gospel transforms. That
• 49:34
  ' s right, that' s right, I' m good. There
• 49:37
  are many there are many variables of what you' re saying interesting that we
• 49:43
  might even have just one program about this. But, for example, good
• 49:46
  flamenco singing in the voice of gypsy. Well Camarón, for example, a
• 49:52
  pro gypsy who raised flamenco to the highest level that, by the way,
• 49:59
  in the latter part of his life, had an encounter with the lord also
• 50:04
  already at the critical moment of his life that was already so sick, thank
• 50:09
  God. But it means it' s evidence and there' s so many
• 50:13
  there. That' s a list. I am using memory, but good
• 50:17
  is also an interesting note in the book about the gypsy cante origin of flamenco.
• 50:22
  But the gypsy people in the Spanish Civil War and then the gypsy people
• 50:28
  and Francoism, for a part of the civil war and then Francoism. These
• 50:32
  two stages are complicated stages. True, if they are complicated stages and not
• 50:40
  well known. I' m going to tell you an example that I didn
• 50:44
  ' t pick up in the book because I told myself. A later uncle
• 50:45
  of mine, a good aunt of mine, my great aunt, to her
• 50:52
  son at the age of sixteen. My grandfather' s first- born uncle
• 50:55
  passes the red truck called red, they wear that. What happens that in
• 51:00
  the village, the people were people and re- Franquist and to her the
• 51:07
  captain of the village that had there, the captain calls her and takes her
• 51:13
  to the barracks, when my aunt wanted to justify them and take her life
• 51:17
  with the rest of the reds in the village, My aunt told the captain
• 51:23
  what she called me and you told her it' s called loneliness, no,
• 51:25
  she didn' t tell her. No, no, what you call
• 51:28
  me when I' m not present, then he said well, no,
• 51:31
  don' t tell me and in the end he presses it so hard that
• 51:36
  it ends up telling him. The gypsy says, because that' s what
• 51:37
  we are. We' re gypsies, we' re not red, we
• 51:39
  ' re not Francoists. In the end, he showed her that she had
• 51:45
  her hair cut to give a lesson and thus saves her life. But that
• 51:50
  is the reality that the history of the Gypsy people is reflected in the civil
• 51:52
  war. The Gypsy and Gypsy people. The Gypsy people, unfortunately, do
• 51:58
  not have a political apparatus. Not removing that yes, I show you in
• 52:01
  evidence that there have been gypsies who have been from the right, others,
• 52:07
  who have been from the left, others who, that is, there have
• 52:12
  been different gypsies, characters who have been able to build a political apparatus,
• 52:17
  with which they were linked to certain positions, but in general, it was
• 52:22
  not the position of the gypsy people, because the gypsy people, so many
• 52:27
  years of repression, what they are least interested in between quotation marks, I
• 52:30
  say, was the conflict of the cloths. That is why it is very
• 52:32
  important to rescue him, because, on the other hand, the Gypsy people
• 52:38
  need to start building a different political apparatus positively right now. It is interesting
• 52:46
  all the reflections we are gnawing at, of course because there are details developed
• 52:55
  about the Gypsy people and Francoism. During Francoism, how it was treated,
• 53:00
  how it was ignored, and also the Gypsy people during the Spanish Civil War
• 53:07
  all the avatars it meant for all the citizens. But also, evidently,
• 53:13
  you have told that anecdote that is very descriptive. You speak also of gypsy.
• 53:20
  To the ghetto what do you mean by that? Oh. That'
• 53:24
  s one of the chapters where it' s the most open to me,
• 53:29
  because I' ve all been a self- discovery. Anyone who today takes
• 53:31
  any highway of the big cities and you can see the mine, the three
• 53:37
  thousand houses, the thousand houses, the palm for midi in Malaga and at
• 53:40
  first sight we say the gypsies, growing that these constructions have been created by
• 53:47
  the gypsies and that this is the habitat the guitars like to have. However,
• 53:52
  when we dig a little bit in history, we discover that the gypsy
• 53:59
  shops so called as are the Jewish Quarters, because they have been Jewish Quarters
• 54:04
  and that nowadays Jewish Quarters are preserved in Córdoba, in part, in other
• 54:08
  parts, in Granada, the gypsies have had their own territory, which have
• 54:15
  always been on the outskirts of the cities. And so where the gypsies have
• 54:17
  managed to elaborate their culture and turn them into gypsy centers, they have expropriated
• 54:24
  them, they have taken their places. It serves as an example Triana.
• 54:30
  The gypsy has been Entriana since 1, 500 seventy, where there were fourteen
• 54:35
  forges, which must be understood that in those moments of the time, the
• 54:39
  gypsies were what supplied the Spanish army with everything that was blacksmith and all the
• 54:45
  maintenance, both agricultural and war Spain. I was at war at the time.
• 54:50
  Then that place. There they develop a way of life. In fact,
• 54:53
  in the 1950s the first Gypsy school appeared. We are talking, that
• 55:00
  is, the level of inclusion there was absolutely total. There they have been,
• 55:04
  there have been cribs of bullfighting like the cocks. And what to say
• 55:07
  about the gypsy before that was the forge. For in the years from the
• 55:12
  fifties and sixties, behind a political economic interest, they use the Gypsies and
• 55:16
  turn them literally, they leave it outside and in the late sixties, as
• 55:22
  in the San Pablo polygon, it is a urbanistic failure, because the Sevillian
• 55:29
  worker does not want to go to live and do not know what to do
• 55:32
  with that housing. They host these gypsies by staying from the three thousand living
• 55:38
  and many empty, that many gypsies coming from other parts, which were to
• 55:44
  walk rivers, end up creating a ghetto. In the 1980s, the issue
• 55:50
  of drugs, heroin, has become a ghetto where for many years they have
• 55:54
  been stigmatized, but Gypsies do not seek to live in it. Another thing
• 56:00
  is that there are already four or five generations who have grown up in that
• 56:06
  context and I have seen it. Another reality that you will like to live
• 56:10
  here surrounded by misery and that the nearest health center has it twelve kilometers away.
• 56:15
  We all like mon Iberian, of course, of course, he'
• 56:22
  s true. This reflection is interesting. I remember when I started, that
• 56:25
  I also learned to read. I learned to read well, because I had
• 56:30
  gone too little alcohol, because I was very sick. I was eight to
• 56:32
  twelve and barely read more. I learned to read well by reading the New
• 56:38
  Testament. He was a young man, he was a kid, but I
• 56:43
  started reading. I was late for culture. I started reading everything not and
• 56:46
  I started reading Paco Candela, Francisco Candel, who was then senator for a
• 56:52
  political party during democracy and was a man who advocated human rights and such an
• 57:00
  interesting one. But Paco Candel lived in the cheap houses here, in the
• 57:07
  free trade zone, which was populated mostly by gypsies, the vast majority and
• 57:15
  has several books. Well he is the famous author of the other Catalans to
• 57:20
  the Catalan salters that the other Catalans, no, but that is a book
• 57:25
  of very interesting inclusivity, but he has several books I was moved to start
• 57:30
  reading. They were the first books I started reading. And that' s
• 57:34
  where the city changes its name. There are some social descriptions of the misery,
• 57:40
  of the marginalization, especially of the gypsies. And then they have killed
• 57:46
  a man, they have broken a landscape, I remember, another one of
• 57:51
  his books and or the character in question was such, the gypsy who was
• 57:54
  a gypsy too and such and to me it was my soul to read stasis
• 58:00
  that he described them so that they became aware of these marginal groups, but
• 58:07
  not socially marginalized, and that he demanded social justice for all and especially for
• 58:14
  them. So, and that was him, he started in the' 60s
• 58:17
  and it started in the' 60s. There in the cheap houses, like
• 58:21
  the three thousand houses of Seville, so emblematic that you told us. I
• 58:28
  mean, it means it' s true. It is the history of marginalization
• 58:30
  that, well, it seems that the public authorities, little by little sections
• 58:36
  of the public authorities, are awakening to inclusiveness. That is precisely where it
• 58:45
  is also very important to bear in mind that, for example, three thousand
• 58:49
  sevillaapolícalo houses south of the Barcelona mine, but the Evangelical Church, with a
• 58:55
  very important empresía and there are doactors that I do not today part of the
• 59:00
  work of Philadelphia. But for me that' s insignificant. What a human
• 59:02
  organization I belong to. For me the most important thing is Jesus Christ,
• 59:06
  the body of Christ and the evangelical faith transcending human organizations. But from here
• 59:12
  I want to pay a tribute to those protors who are in those slums,
• 59:16
  who are essated, who the majority society, say that you are from the
• 59:22
  mine, who are of the three thousand houses that from Palma, for me
• 59:24
  already produce a rejection. These pastors are there working, sitting in front of
• 59:29
  the drugs, facing marginality, facing social exclusion, school failure, and those
• 59:34
  men do not have those resources anymore. I don' t think any of
• 59:40
  them don' t even have a living wage to live on. Of them
• 59:44
  those pastors who are there make markets or are working at other hours to prepare
• 59:50
  yes, those pastors, I say and the ministerial body and the rest of
• 59:53
  members, but keep in mind that really the autonomous state plans of city hall,
• 1:00:01
  which do have economic resources, do not develop or do such important social
• 1:00:08
  work or are doing those evangelical churches. Yeah, without that, it'
• 1:00:13
  s pretty accurate. I am a witness, I am the director of the
• 1:00:15
  Evangelical Council of the Churches of Barcelona and I know all these pitfalls and from
• 1:00:22
  near and far, and it is very true and neighborhoods like the Mina or
• 1:00:30
  San Roque and so many others, or the Dusterín of other cities also and
• 1:00:38
  what the Gypsy churches have in those places. And this we want to put
• 1:00:44
  into value and vindicate it, because it is very true. Besides, I
• 1:00:46
  would say it as a sociologist also although I am a training journalist, but
• 1:00:53
  I also have features of that. It means where the gypsy evangelical churches are.
• 1:01:00
  They exercise a social influence, a catalyst against the surrounding crime, against
• 1:01:07
  marginalization, against all kinds of negative things. That is, the benign positive
• 1:01:15
  effect of the Gypsy churches. Where they are is very high. Some politicians
• 1:01:22
  have noticed little and have favored the ground. There are few cases, but
• 1:01:31
  there are. One of them is the mine. By the way, the
• 1:01:36
  City Hall was very sensitive to this. But that the social influence they exert
• 1:01:40
  positive and reintegration, the redemption of substantial changes in the Community, surrounding the
• 1:01:50
  siglesiacity, is barbarous. So this is one thing to put into value.
• 1:01:58
  I put in a professional worker. By chance yesterday we were in a meeting
• 1:02:02
  with a town hall here, on the island of Tenerife, and when they
• 1:02:06
  the technicians, ask for reference that or social worker more of community court.
• 1:02:10
  I understand that the Evangelical Church in the case of the Gypsy people, not
• 1:02:15
  only in the Gypsy people, the churches that work with migrations, that is,
• 1:02:17
  this is a work that the Evangelical Church does, regardless of the last
• 1:02:22
  name we want to put assemblies of God Philadelphia free brothers, the Evangelical Church
• 1:02:28
  in Spain is the best ally that social services have, because in the largest
• 1:02:32
  support network that works you are interested. The evangelical people are an altruistic people,
• 1:02:40
  100 per cent of whom are on canyons working multilevelly in different spheres.
• 1:02:47
  If there is a problem of marriage, conflict resolution or an anti- drug,
• 1:02:52
  vice, anti- crime message and a reintegration holiday, who accepts those
• 1:02:58
  100 percent principles are not psychologists, it' s true, but I don
• 1:03:02
  ' t know what they have that after all, one is talk, Pastor
• 1:03:06
  tells you, ends up transforming life. I don' t know what you
• 1:03:07
  ' re doing. They are not a doctor, it is true, but
• 1:03:10
  a prayer of these people produces a well- being if the majority society were
• 1:03:16
  aware of the effects. He has the preaching of the Gospel of Jesus Christ
• 1:03:21
  without a doubt, although I understand that every free and willing person has to
• 1:03:24
  take to the faith and how he wants to live and are respectable, but
• 1:03:30
  it is sad that, as the Gypsy people are stigmatized. I suffer from
• 1:03:34
  a number of discriminations, but I suffer more discrimination because I am evangelical than
• 1:03:39
  because I am gypsy and sometimes because I am gypsy because I am evangelical.
• 1:03:42
  I don' t know why I' m discriminated against anymore, but if
• 1:03:45
  there' s something that hurts me so much, it' s discrimination that
• 1:03:50
  I also suffer because I' m evangelical. We are stigmatized so that,
• 1:03:52
  having a message of hope, a message of ugly resilient elements, we will
• 1:04:00
  not be able to get it to the majority society free of prejudice. Another
• 1:04:05
  thing is that I want to assist them later, but I do believe that
• 1:04:11
  we must fight as much as gypsies as Latinos as evangelicals. One of the
• 1:04:15
  great problems we have in Spain is called prejudices yes, we have to overcome
• 1:04:20
  that because, for example, I recently launched an article in my weekly blog
• 1:04:26
  of digital protestation, which the evangelical churches contribute to Spanish society an endless number
• 1:04:31
  of things not only laculto or cultual, which is of our vein of faith,
• 1:04:39
  of course it is very important for us. But beyond that, the
• 1:04:45
  evangelical social work is imposing. It is imposing comparatively and in addition that the
• 1:04:53
  car we finance with own resources from personal donations. But this is true.
• 1:05:00
  In social mediation, in human conflicts, mediation in families, in the community
• 1:05:03
  between people, accompaniment, everything is that value from the human point of view,
• 1:05:10
  all this is a tremendous enormous value that we pastors and believers also bring
• 1:05:16
  to this work. There is an interesting chapter that you have already made notes
• 1:05:26
  about the Gypsy people, Spanish citizens of full right. That' s where
• 1:05:30
  you give us a note. Yes, to see is that many people,
• 1:05:34
  even those who have been the most surprised up to a thousand nine hundred and
• 1:05:40
  seventy- eight, do not begin to recognize us as full citizens, that
• 1:05:45
  is, in the case of my families, as we are living in Melidia,
• 1:05:49
  that belonged to the Spanish protectorate in Spain and that, in fact,
• 1:05:54
  it is still Mély of Spain. There is one when you meet another,
• 1:05:59
  another ethnic group, another a genic group that are in the social strata,
• 1:06:02
  moreover, you can be access to public schools and so on. But a
• 1:06:09
  very famous singer who is Amaya remedies, who shares the Christian faith. Regardless,
• 1:06:14
  I haven' t had the pleasure to meet her, but to have
• 1:06:17
  seen her act some time again. She' s one of the interviews that
• 1:06:20
  makes her realize that her illusion was to go to school. Her father,
• 1:06:25
  her mother buys her a pen and she goes with two leaves, with her
• 1:06:29
  little eye and her pen is twelve years old and when she goes to school,
• 1:06:34
  she is made and told that gypsies cannot enter. A thousand nine hundred
• 1:06:40
  and eighty- five, the Amen ochente program can be put on YouTube,
• 1:06:45
  you can see it Vicálvaro and different central parts of Madrid are barricaded so that
• 1:06:54
  the gypsy children do not go to school. Yeah, it' s just
• 1:06:58
  very important. A cousin of mine who by national he. Speaking with him,
• 1:07:02
  Joseph tells me you have to keep in mind that a good part of
• 1:07:08
  the gypsies who live in the great cities Padrid. We' re in the
• 1:07:14
  second generation that you have sanitation at home. I mean. It' s
• 1:07:19
  sad. It is sad to know that there is some generation that people who
• 1:07:27
  are thirty, thirty- five years old individuals in shantytown and, in fact,
• 1:07:30
  right now the real pregnant, as they exceed the thousands of people who
• 1:07:35
  do not have in a plenum and a winter kur like two years ago,
• 1:07:40
  with temperatures below five degrees, you did not even have light. Tremendous tremendous
• 1:07:47
  is really painful. Sorry, because this topic gives a lot of itself,
• 1:07:55
  but I love it is your descriptive way of explaining to us and making a
• 1:08:00
  breviary, because the theme is to read it from the Canarian punch. It
• 1:08:03
  ' s the story of the Gypsy people. Da Arvel Botch. Can you
• 1:08:08
  on Amazon platforms against José Carmona Santiago? José Carmona Santiago and this magnificent book
• 1:08:15
  make a bet a day. But before we say goodbye, I' d
• 1:08:19
  like you to give us a review of your book. The Cross. The
• 1:08:21
  title caught my attention, because the Cross always strikes me. So deep is
• 1:08:29
  the inexhaustible theme and there Alex now puts us on Facebook lights. This book
• 1:08:36
  The Cross is the result of my personal emotions. I, although right now
• 1:08:45
  I exercise it as a pastor, because I am in science, in research,
• 1:08:48
  because I collaborate with the different ones. It is all the churches that
• 1:08:51
  allow me to do so, so they are part of emotional and I understand
• 1:08:59
  that the whole base, the whole basis of Christian identity, has to do
• 1:09:01
  with the cross. Christian conversion is the fact, as we identify with the
• 1:09:06
  work of Jesus Christ, we identify with that death and with that resurrection.
• 1:09:12
  And from there is where the new life is in Christ. So if we
• 1:09:15
  understand that our new life in Christ is contact with the Cross, on the
• 1:09:20
  Cross, through the Cross, the Cross has been an element that for centuries,
• 1:09:25
  for the Greeks, the barbarians, the Romans, in a place of
• 1:09:28
  cruelty, of reproach, of contempt for the Jews, even cursed, when
• 1:09:33
  Jesus is on the Cross, has made it the symbol of hope the Cross.
• 1:09:40
  The human being who has fallen on the Cross has been able to have
• 1:09:44
  forgiveness for his sins, salvation, justification, redemption, and has been able
• 1:09:49
  to have expation and reconciliation with God. And if there is a transformative message
• 1:09:53
  of the peoples. It is the message of the cross, which breaks down
• 1:09:57
  all ethnic barriers, that what you use all even denominational barriers, which separates
• 1:10:02
  everything that can separate us. When we get to the Cross, that'
• 1:10:08
  s where we meet. That' s one of my big fights. My
• 1:10:11
  struggle is not focused today on what separates us. My struggle is focused on
• 1:10:15
  what unites us. And I believe that the element of the cross is the
• 1:10:19
  key for there to be a people and Jesus, and by this they will
• 1:10:23
  know that you are my disciples and their hamas to one another. And it
• 1:10:25
  is precisely in this Union with Christ, through the resurrection death of Jesus,
• 1:10:29
  that we can project a different Christianity. It is a super simple book of
• 1:10:36
  devotional character and with some brief theological explanations of the grandeur of the Cross,
• 1:10:43
  simply because it does not reach a particle of sand on the immense beaches of
• 1:10:46
  the depth of the Cross. How interesting, well, what wealth, how
• 1:10:51
  many things not. And we can see from the history of a people,
• 1:10:57
  from a people as dear to many of us as the Gypsy people in general,
• 1:11:02
  and not also that immense number of believers, of faithful evangelical Christians who
• 1:11:10
  are that immigration from popular Catholic religiosity to a biblical evangelical Christianity and also to
• 1:11:20
  a whole series of expressions that go more into the vein of the Gypsy people.
• 1:11:27
  Also then and then all the historical avatars that are many, there are
• 1:11:33
  countless then we will also talk to other friends, also gypsy writers, writers
• 1:11:41
  who will give us even more data to make a bet to the day on
• 1:11:45
  this important topic. José Carmona, the Truth, dear Saint Joseph Carmona Santiago,
• 1:11:51
  dear friend, the truth and brother God, we will see you shortly,
• 1:11:57
  for I send you a very affectionate embrace. Thank you so much for
• 1:12:01
  the opportunity and thanks for the beautiful work that makes us visible the work that
• 1:12:06
  the evangelical people put us in value in front of society. God honor you
• 1:12:11
  and God bless you. Thanks a lot, buddy. Until always you on
• 1:12:30
  the train of life life. Today I want to introduce you to an incomparable
• 1:12:45
  lord. I give you a view, but for your life to change who
• 1:12:53
  walks over the sea. We' re blind already I present Jesus to you.
• 1:13:05
  I' ll make you walk ahead of stare watch you walk in front
• 1:13:15
  of me. If it weren' t for Jesus, I wouldn' t
• 1:13:19
  be there, but walk in front of my face of You, look in
• 1:13:29
  front of me, son, one last chance, that is, that you
• 1:13:36
  have at your disposal walk and let yourself embrace Dome be a coward that he
• 1:13:45
  died for you in the cru and shed all his blood for forgiveness of your
• 1:13:50
  sins. Jesus, don' t stop me. Walk forward, look great
• 1:14:00
  at me walking on the side of me, the walk looks ahead of me.
• 1:14:04
  If it wasn' t for Jesus, I dream already and hope that
• 1:14:11
  he walks before me the look walks The camera of Aia of You, my
• 1:14:16
  camera looks ahead of me. Well, well, Mr Hallelujah, but my
• 1:14:34
  mother. I don' t want to scratch this, nor do I want
• 1:14:40
  the money. I prepare your face- to- face. I come to
• 1:14:44
  heaven. This look ahead of this look forward look look vintage look, look
• 1:14:51
  forward to me before you walk look forward or become holy compare r or not.
• 1:15:17
  No. I' m sure, but I' m not sure.
• 1:15:23
  But the Traffic and Road Safety Act has changed. We changed the rules,
• 1:15:30
  because the way we moved has also changed. So, now, if you
• 1:15:34
  ' re not wearing your belt, you can lose four points, new times,
• 1:15:40
  new rules. Directorate- General for Traffic, Ministry of the Interior,
• 1:15:44
  Government of Spain. And never leave me alone in the tub or places with
• 1:15:46
  water. Don' t let them emit luis fingers are a hinchufi. Don
• 1:15:49
  ' t leave me in the face of an open window. You tell her
• 1:15:53
  within reach of tissue substances or a thousand paths. You tell him to swallow
• 1:15:58
  me the small pieces of If you neglect, your eyeball can be dangerous for
• 1:16:02
  your children. Don' t worry, avoid accidents. For what you want
• 1:16:05
  most Ministry of Health and Consumer Affairs a Government of Spain. Juan invests 180
• 1:16:11
  euros a month in suffering. Alberto invests 200 euros in extortion. Carlos invests
• 1:16:16
  150 euros in kidnappings. Every time you pay you' re investing in mobs,
• 1:16:21
  extortion, harassment, help them out, don' t invest in suffering
• 1:16:27
  against trafficking in women. Be aware, Government of Spain, you travel on
• 1:16:33
  the train of life. Or ladies and gentlemen, well, I have the
• 1:17:05
  pleasure and I believe the honor of interviewing our friend Cfora Vargas. Sefora Vargas
• 1:17:15
  is a lawyer, also a writer, a good writer. Besides, I
• 1:17:19
  ' m pleased when you look when you write and I don' t know
• 1:17:24
  if you' re good or not so good, because you skip not and
• 1:17:29
  say good is a writer or writer. But when he' s a good
• 1:17:30
  writer, we underline him. This is the case of Sefora Vargas, who
• 1:17:34
  has several publications on the emancipation of women and particularly of women in general,
• 1:17:41
  and of the gypsy woman, who she also represents very dignifiedly. Not good,
• 1:17:45
  because she is a defender of women' s rights, also on this
• 1:17:51
  Thursday, practically this day eight that we are celebrating just these days, which
• 1:18:00
  is International Working Women' s Day, on 8 March always this week.
• 1:18:10
  Well, today we talk to Sefora Vargas about a book, a second book
• 1:18:15
  that is the history of the Gypsy people. For Dumis, this is an
• 1:18:23
  addition to the survival of silenced heroes. It is an interesting book, historical,
• 1:18:31
  rigorous, dramatic, descriptive, but also that in some way vindicates the
• 1:18:40
  figure of the citizen or gypsy, of the man and the woman, of
• 1:18:44
  the young, of the child, of the gypsy, which is, a
• 1:18:50
  good measure, already inserted in society. But there is still obscure in the
• 1:18:55
  social sphere about the stigma of the gypsy. So, well, I think
• 1:19:00
  that this contribution is very interesting, as we have seen with other authors,
• 1:19:06
  also very affectionate gypsies, like my dear friend José Carmona, doctor in psychology,
• 1:19:13
  or Antonio Carmona also theologian and doctor in theology, etcetera. No and
• 1:19:18
  that we have been able to talk about these things, because I want to
• 1:19:24
  welcome Séfora Vargas, ladies and gentlemen, good morning, Séfora Hello, good
• 1:19:29
  morning, how are you? Everything. Thank you so much for the invitation.
• 1:19:32
  It' s a pleasure to be able to hear you Séphora, how
• 1:19:36
  are you? From Andalusia, from Seville, we don' t talk,
• 1:19:40
  yes, I' m from Seville. I live here and well, everything
• 1:19:44
  ' s great. The truth is, it' s time I did a
• 1:19:47
  lot of work, because it actually makes me a woman. It is international
• 1:19:49
  of women and with motifs of the 8th day, because they are celebrated and
• 1:19:55
  they are carried out a lot of faction throughout the whole of the Then there
• 1:20:00
  is already a little drop go on the 8th day because I am already flanking
• 1:20:02
  energy. Yeah, all right, thank God. I have seen you announced
• 1:20:06
  at some public conferences on Working Women' s Day about International Women' s
• 1:20:13
  Day, International Women' s Day, and I have seen that you are
• 1:20:17
  already giving lectures. And, well, how good, how nice that you
• 1:20:24
  can so dignify the emancipation of women, of women oppressed by their rights.
• 1:20:31
  Of course, I know outside the theme of the history of the Gypsy people
• 1:20:42
  for dumis the survival of some Sidential heroes. This is a book that claims
• 1:20:48
  in a loud way the reintegration to all the effects of the city or gypsy,
• 1:20:57
  of the city of Agita. Right, well, the history of the
• 1:21:00
  Agitan people for dance. It pretends to be, and seems to be,
• 1:21:04
  thank God that I have managed to do an exhautive study of law and comparative
• 1:21:13
  victory that encompasses not only the history of Spain, which we also have magnificent
• 1:21:17
  historians and people who have contributed to the discovery and the contribution of the history
• 1:21:21
  of the Gypsy people. I don' t eat e- e- e
• 1:21:26
  - e- e- e- e- e- e- e-
• 1:21:26
  e- e- e- e- e- e- e- e
• 1:21:26
  - e- e- e- e- e- e- e-
• 1:21:26
  e- e- e- e- e- e- e- e
• 1:21:26
  - e- e- e- e- e- e- e-
• 1:21:26
  e- e- e- e- e- e- e- e
• 1:21:26
  - e- e- e- e- e- e- e-
• 1:21:26
  e- e- e- e- e- e- e- e
• 1:21:26
  - e- e- e- e- e- e- e-
• 1:21:26
  e- e- e- e- e- e- e- e
• 1:21:26
  - e- e- e- e- e- e- e-
• 1:21:26
  e- e- e- e- e- e- e- e
• 1:21:26
  - e- e- e- e- e- e- e-
• 1:21:26
  e- e. Manuel Martínez Martínez, in fact, is my Prologosist a
• 1:21:29
  pride to me that he has been and a great friend. But what I
• 1:21:34
  intended was to bring history closer to people. Why, because history is often
• 1:21:41
  written in such a technical way, so rigorous, so difficult that so difficult
• 1:21:45
  to access, because not everyone has the ability to understand a legal slang.
• 1:21:50
  I hear historiographical, as are the history books and it was necessary to create
• 1:21:57
  an easy book, accessible, but at the same time intense discouragement, where
• 1:22:01
  you would leave the national territory and where you could compare what happened, for
• 1:22:06
  example, in the United States, how did the gypsies arrive in the United
• 1:22:11
  States, what has been the treatment in much of all the countries of Europe,
• 1:22:15
  how has the treatment been in the United Kingdom? To tell unusual facts
• 1:22:19
  that are not yet known about the Second World War and the Nazi gypsy holocaust,
• 1:22:25
  which there are many people who still do not know, that three quarters
• 1:22:29
  of the Roma population in Europe died and were so many rights silenced, so
• 1:22:39
  many historical events so important that, moreover, not only have been hidden,
• 1:22:44
  but, moreover, they have almost always been counted by people who are not
• 1:22:46
  gypsy. And thank God that at the time they were able to get the
• 1:22:50
  story out of that hidden intraictoria, but the identity component of ours was missing,
• 1:22:58
  there was a need for a titan voice with a jar. How did
• 1:23:00
  these persecutions affect us, those prasmatics, for example, how is the case
• 1:23:04
  here in Spain? Not how we lost our tongue, why our ancestor often
• 1:23:13
  joked, does not tell the anecdote many times of a uncle of mine who
• 1:23:16
  told me to you I go through all ears and my brother and I hid
• 1:23:19
  terrified and covered our ears and we ran to hide. And then I discovered
• 1:23:26
  later that the cutting of the ears was practiced as reoffending symbols for all those
• 1:23:31
  Africans who had contravened the plasmas. Then we had to unite history, comparative
• 1:23:41
  history and, in addition, the identity component of how it impacted, of
• 1:23:45
  how we feel and how we live gypsy culture. And those stages of assimilation,
• 1:23:49
  which is why and that is African victory. Then I already have people
• 1:23:56
  who have criticized me for being paranoid in my intention to include the term for
• 1:24:04
  Damis was more than anything for making a book that was sensitive, that was
• 1:24:09
  easy, that was counted from an easy perspective, that was not complex.
• 1:24:15
  However, I already have a good person, I have yesterday and I received
• 1:24:20
  a beautiful message, a criticism from a law professor of my faculty who has
• 1:24:26
  read the book and tells me that the book involves a research work so great
• 1:24:31
  that it deserves them to include the term dance and the truth that touched me.
• 1:24:40
  Then I' m happy with the work you' re doing. Yeah.
• 1:24:43
  Yeah, yeah, well, I think it' s very interesting story
• 1:24:45
  of the Gypsy pole for Damis the survival of some silent publishing heroes. Remember
• 1:24:51
  us, he doesn' t have an editorial. Julio I have the custom,
• 1:24:56
  the wonderful habit of avoiding with today I had to tell a video explaining
• 1:25:02
  why. Yes, yes, and he explained why briefly, because in the
• 1:25:06
  first book I had criticisms of some publishers who had the boldness of not allowing
• 1:25:14
  the cover of the first book to be the one it was. Te.
• 1:25:16
  I appeared with my hands tied with a rope in a defensive position. No
• 1:25:21
  and I knew perfectly well that this image of the book had to be the
• 1:25:26
  cover, because that' s how we have felt most women throughout history and
• 1:25:29
  especially in the Thescana. And then they also wanted to correct me in how
• 1:25:35
  I counted some very important parts, such as the bathroom test. I count
• 1:25:40
  it with incredible respect, both for those who want to continue practicing it and
• 1:25:44
  people who do not want to do it. And they wanted to change my
• 1:25:49
  narrative. And, finally, they also wanted to forbid me from making presentations
• 1:25:57
  in humble neighborhoods or neighborhoods of social exclusion, because I said that for a
• 1:26:02
  Nobel writer that took away. Perfu then literally sent them for a walk and
• 1:26:06
  I told myself that in my work I commanded that no one knows more than
• 1:26:11
  I of what I have lived, suffered or worked, that I can affect
• 1:26:15
  orthotypeographic corrections and all the collections I want with respect to narrative, but not
• 1:26:20
  to what I tell neither as I tell it, let alone to the cover.
• 1:26:24
  And I already took the thing submerged because it was great, because besides,
• 1:26:27
  that way I could reach other continents. In the United States I have
• 1:26:31
  many followers who buy me, who read me university professors and I have stayed
• 1:26:36
  away with love. Yeah, yeah, well, perfect, perfect. Look.
• 1:26:43
  I have to publish some books and I am thinking about Amazon more than
• 1:26:46
  anything else, because I also want to be independent, I want to be
• 1:26:54
  myself too and I think I subscribe to that statement look at the book The
• 1:27:00
  History of the Gypsy People. For Dumis, the survival of non- silent
• 1:27:03
  beings is an accessible work, easy to understand, but with an overwhelming intensity,
• 1:27:09
  as was being said, because historically, society has maintained a vision of
• 1:27:14
  the impoverished, perverse and linked gypsy pole of crime, for having concealed the
• 1:27:18
  atrocities carried out on them, as it was, for example, slavery,
• 1:27:24
  forced settlement, mass deportations, torture and degrading treatment, mutilations punishments of public
• 1:27:30
  shame, exemplary punishments, drownings, hangings, shootings, attempts at biological exterminations,
• 1:27:38
  genocides and crimes against humanity, massive deteriorations, as was the case.
• 1:27:45
  Also from the Nazi genocide with the Gypsies there were many medical experiments, retreaded
• 1:27:51
  from the custody of their children, erased and lost and identity is overwhelming.
• 1:27:57
  Then the group work is total. Your life' s work with the real
• 1:28:01
  facts of a surviving Nazi family. I like it a lot in the first
• 1:28:08
  good, in the introduction you talk about that about this person you knew about,
• 1:28:15
  tell us a little bit about this case of the family survivor who had
• 1:28:19
  survived the concentration camp. Yeah, he wants me to tell the story a
• 1:28:24
  little bit so people can come in, mouth to buy the book that needs
• 1:28:26
  to be done. This book is a book you have to have, you
• 1:28:29
  have to buy it and go back to it several times. It' s
• 1:28:31
  a hist ear. Thank you very much, Julio Mira, it' s
• 1:28:35
  a hard story to tell. What happens is that I made a step with
• 1:28:39
  that older man, with that gypsy, with the respect that we would tell
• 1:28:42
  him in due course. But I' ve silenced her since the year two
• 1:28:45
  thousand eight, which was when I met him. I was working in an
• 1:28:48
  entity and suddenly no child, a group of very tall gypsies, very good
• 1:28:55
  plant, apri helps us. He needed to be a medicine for his father,
• 1:29:00
  because the father was diabetic and did not sell him medicines without prescription.
• 1:29:09
  Respectfully. Then it caught my attention because they were nomadic gypsies and wanderers.
• 1:29:17
  They were still living in caravans and I was the first holdings they had with
• 1:29:25
  European gypsies at those levels. Not then did I pick up the phone,
• 1:29:29
  we helped him and in the afternoon they had also told me that their ladies
• 1:29:33
  had not allowed her to enter the shops of the Center of Seville because they
• 1:29:38
  are seen leagues that were gypsy and because there are racism and classism that there
• 1:29:43
  are many times in the big capitals, because they could not buy the summer
• 1:29:46
  shoes that they needed. So, I, at the time, was an
• 1:29:49
  entrepreneur, had shoe stores, apart from working in that entity, and I
• 1:29:56
  carried two boxes of two pairs of slippers and the real ones, the beautiful
• 1:30:01
  esparto dagger shoes. He tells them in gratitude, for he came out of
• 1:30:05
  the old man, just the one who needed that recipe and invited me to
• 1:30:10
  his house, to his caravan and well, he served us an exquisite tea,
• 1:30:15
  a t with fruit in between with strawberries that I in life had tasted
• 1:30:19
  with dried fruit when I was in that caravan. I was given the beautiful
• 1:30:21
  knitting, because it is as if I had this first brutal encounter with the
• 1:30:28
  oldest of our identity, because, as the Spanish gypsy people lost their identity
• 1:30:32
  almost at all levels, one of them, because that element of movement did
• 1:30:36
  not force us to strengthen ourselves, to leave our trades. When I was
• 1:30:43
  there and I was hallucinating and many times I got lost even in the course
• 1:30:49
  of his conversation, there were things that didn' t pay attention to him,
• 1:30:54
  until, suddenly, in an older gypsy he was very magno, very
• 1:30:58
  bad, very bad. I don' t know what I had. I
• 1:31:00
  wouldn' t be around the' 90s or' 90s. So much was
• 1:31:03
  very old. I can' t say age. A man is very revered
• 1:31:08
  as an impressive shiner like wrinkles and scars in the soul that it was noticed,
• 1:31:14
  not and suddenly he discovers his arm, lifts it up and teaches me
• 1:31:17
  a tattooed triangle and a number like a blade forward. Then I knew what
• 1:31:28
  I was at the time. My body was cut off, we had tears
• 1:31:32
  sitting down and the man daughter told me you were studying, because there to
• 1:31:38
  David I was studying straight. I' m going to tell you a story
• 1:31:44
  that no one knows and I hope that someday you' ll tell it very
• 1:31:49
  briefly, the man told me how he could escape a concentration camp. He
• 1:31:54
  didn' t even give me the pis field data. It was not able
• 1:31:58
  to say what or audio, because when I was late I had completely lost
• 1:32:01
  the notion of the time of life. It was a killing machine here.
• 1:32:04
  The older man and the man, in an oversight by the guards who were
• 1:32:13
  guarding the barracks of the gypsy family, said that he took advantage of a
• 1:32:18
  hole that they had barbed because nights earlier an African lady had tried to escape
• 1:32:24
  and logically had amplified her and had beaten her to death. And then they
• 1:32:29
  had taken advantage of that barbed wire and had a triple barbed wire that I
• 1:32:32
  had managed to make. The hole in the three barbed wires caught his own,
• 1:32:36
  whom he could, including a little boy or I little ones he had
• 1:32:42
  and ran away. They ran out through the woods. Then neither his health,
• 1:32:48
  nor his shoes, nor his clothes, nor anything was nourished. You
• 1:32:55
  know what the bodies of the camp prisoners were like. No points to imagine
• 1:33:00
  the situation, how those children were and in that flight, in that terrifying
• 1:33:08
  stampede, because the man told you and I couldn' t stop crying.
• 1:33:13
  As they ran, ran and ran, they began to listen to the fields
• 1:33:16
  forgiveness, to the dogs that had already given the alarm voice, they had
• 1:33:21
  already put in the siren. They were focusing the forest so that the vecences
• 1:33:28
  would be behind them and they could locate him, capture him and bring us
• 1:33:31
  back to the field. They contemplate in the midst of that agonic flight,
• 1:33:38
  his son, little boy, falls and he thinks he broke his leg because
• 1:33:43
  of the deformity he had. Then I didn' t stop crying. He
• 1:33:46
  panicked at the barking of the hills, at the sound of the mermaid,
• 1:33:53
  at the panic of everything he was living, and that child couldn' t
• 1:33:58
  get over the crying or even the pain. Then they kept getting closer to
• 1:34:00
  the dogs, sometimes they had closer. They reached a river and supposedly just
• 1:34:06
  behind the river, they were already entering the border with another country where they
• 1:34:10
  could no longer be perceived. And one didn' t even know what country
• 1:34:15
  it was, what a fool it was, what a river it was.
• 1:34:16
  Nothing, not a completely traumatised mexico memory. When they arrived at the river
• 1:34:24
  he said that the dogs were already at Cosner' s points, they were
• 1:34:27
  very close. Then the father has to make a choice between life and death,
• 1:34:31
  between choosing to save fifteen people and the rest of his family or not
• 1:34:39
  doing in any way the crying in his man took his child' s head,
• 1:34:43
  put it under the water, rustled the river if they were not wide
• 1:34:48
  and when they reached the other line, logically they already arrived at a situation
• 1:34:56
  where they were safe. They tried the animal. Not a chance. It
• 1:35:01
  ' s hard for me to tell it, because having to sacrifice your own
• 1:35:08
  child to save all your family is terrible. Then I' d had a
• 1:35:15
  lot of years with those points and that was in my head, but I
• 1:35:19
  had promised him final. I' ll tell you about it sometime. And
• 1:35:24
  so it is, when I saw the moral obligation to make a book where
• 1:35:30
  everyone recongests the maximum that had come to give my information, it does not
• 1:35:34
  forgive here in emotions. But as an activist, as a lawyer, as
• 1:35:42
  a professional, I have accumulated not only thousands of experiences of these twenty-
• 1:35:46
  four or twenty- five years of activism, but of knowledge of everything one
• 1:35:50
  has to study and investigate in order to face your profession. Not then was
• 1:35:53
  it time for all of us to be counted together, not only the part
• 1:35:58
  that the distoriators count, but our memory, the memory to nieica, the
• 1:36:03
  memories, the importance of our religious rituals or even in funerary, the importance
• 1:36:11
  of the Marine system, the importance of those survival strategies. This man was
• 1:36:15
  a hero, but at the same time very much for his own son.
• 1:36:19
  Or it is terrible the sacrifice that in some moments has had to face the
• 1:36:24
  people of Agrican to put on me but harder of everything up to it.
• 1:36:28
  Until the eighties and twos the cap was never recognized of making me what story
• 1:36:35
  excited me against injustices. We must fight at all costs of whatever it takes.
• 1:36:47
  Not Jesus was the most just man in human history, but he also
• 1:36:54
  tells us that blessed are the peacemakers and those who do justice. I like
• 1:37:01
  it very much in the first chapter, our destiny can only be changed if
• 1:37:06
  we allow ourselves to imagine a different one. This word, this phrase is
• 1:37:12
  precious, makes us dream of the possibility of true change. You have to
• 1:37:18
  dream if you don' t, you dream, if you don' t
• 1:37:23
  have the ability to change your reality, to imagine what your life would be
• 1:37:28
  if it could be or give to do you never do. You need to
• 1:37:32
  see visions have dreams. I, when I was a child, was unthinkable
• 1:37:39
  many things, but I was always sleepy. I had the magnificent opportunity and
• 1:37:44
  luck that I was born in a Christian, that my father would say Christian
• 1:37:48
  and gypsies and allow me a lot, but there were things that were unthinkable,
• 1:37:53
  even to me. And that exercise of overcoming and believing in your own
• 1:37:58
  are and never sell your identity, neither your values nor your beliefs. I
• 1:38:02
  really do make books and then the title of that book is a little wink.
• 1:38:08
  To this must be believed in another opportunity and emphatic or introduce the need
• 1:38:15
  of the Gypsy people. Not that that' s going to be that article
• 1:38:21
  of rewriting our own story. It is not enough there, because we are
• 1:38:26
  known, because as the critical qualifying arguments adjectives that give upon us throughout the
• 1:38:31
  history of literature, as ruffians, the dirty, vag a thief, a
• 1:38:38
  trapper. Well we have even been accused that we were the ones who forged
• 1:38:44
  the nails and chrysso imagine, there is no legend of all colors. Then
• 1:38:50
  we had to take that visionist look, raise up, not dignify our position
• 1:39:00
  and create our own vision of who it is and why we have given this
• 1:39:05
  suffering and made it professed an assimilation. How many things there are in this
• 1:39:12
  book and what you are saying comes out of the heart, but also from
• 1:39:15
  the truth, from the social truth, from the anatemization of the gypsy,
• 1:39:21
  much more in the past and in the present. Some stereotypes still need to
• 1:39:28
  be overcome that are socially entangled by saying gypsies. So it is and clear
• 1:39:38
  when we discover good people, there are many you are, you séphora,
• 1:39:43
  it is, josé is or there is a list of gypsy intellectuals who contribute
• 1:39:51
  and who, besides, claim not only the gypsy culture, but the reintegration
• 1:40:00
  into the social consciousness of the gypsy as a singular citizen, but as others
• 1:40:06
  are and as others are. In one of the chapters, when you say
• 1:40:11
  claudicate or die page in these three chapters, in bold, you say I
• 1:40:15
  pick up the Spanish stage in a very close and experiential way. Hence the
• 1:40:17
  term for Damis, because I am not only interested in exalting the two hundred
• 1:40:23
  and fifty gypsy legal provisions that were promulgated, but also, transfer to the
• 1:40:28
  reader, the experiences of the persecuted, the suffering of these families. Therefore,
• 1:40:30
  they are told by genetic memory, by the knowledge it has transmitted to
• 1:40:35
  us, with its community silences and traumas and adapted with all the rigor of
• 1:40:42
  the scientific method and gypsy historiography. So here we are already a little bit
• 1:40:47
  on specific cases. No, I don' t. What I do is
• 1:40:56
  it' s safe. A family. It is a family, the family
• 1:40:59
  of the Eye, with all its children, its characters, the wife of
• 1:41:05
  Juan Dolores is not the emblematic name Dolores suffering and in those fictional characters.
• 1:41:14
  Actually, what it does is I cover what really happened to all the gypsy
• 1:41:18
  families. There comes this context of historical professor, of assimilations, of anti
• 1:41:25
  - gypsy laws. I' ve heard and I' ve been told hundreds
• 1:41:31
  of my anecdote about taking three oranges from the Civil Guard. At the time
• 1:41:36
  there were battles and we all know that the righteous are not even condemnable to
• 1:41:43
  Mexico. In other words, care must be taken, but the presumption of
• 1:41:45
  innocence has always been violated with the gypsy. So, all those experiences of
• 1:41:53
  persecutions, those events that have told me, I have introduced it, not
• 1:41:58
  only by telling what they achieved, for example, the first pragmatic Catholic challenge,
• 1:42:02
  which was the great raid, is the first attempt at a cbiological genocide,
• 1:42:08
  where they separated us men from women so that we would not own them,
• 1:42:12
  so that they would be extinguished. I tell you how far I'
• 1:42:20
  ve been able to find out by investigating and interviewing skilled personnel A tidad is
• 1:42:28
  the sum of all of their memories is the sum of those experiences. That
• 1:42:30
  ' s why I pick up appearance is as important as fighting, burials.
• 1:42:35
  He respects the deceased. It' s not a history book, it'
• 1:42:40
  s just a lot more. That' s it. It is not the
• 1:42:42
  mixture of history, culture, experience, lithic memory. I explain what critical
• 1:42:48
  memory and trauma is. It is very important, the community traumas, because
• 1:42:56
  after the great raid there is a generational silence, a silence so great that,
• 1:43:02
  in reality, the majority of the gypsy people do not even know that
• 1:43:06
  it was the great tida. Our mothers arrived for a moment, our great
• 1:43:11
  - grandmothers who stopped telling us the horrors. There are things that haven'
• 1:43:15
  t even cost her. They' ve never told us what the big raid
• 1:43:18
  was. They told you one percent. They were rapping us, punishing us,
• 1:43:24
  beating us, but they didn' t tell you what they were separated
• 1:43:29
  from their husbands. There is a silence there, a silence scientifically demonstrated.
• 1:43:32
  No, we don' t have access to them. And then, after
• 1:43:36
  all my research, he came to the conclusion that if there is, for
• 1:43:43
  example, the Lise syndrome that develops Atrin, seven stages, which is the
• 1:43:47
  one that occurs when an immigrant person leaves his country, comes in pasture,
• 1:43:54
  suffers what I drink from crossing the sea and then tries to adapt to a
• 1:43:59
  culture that is not his own. Yes, yes, that is justified,
• 1:44:02
  studied and has a name. How is it possible that the flight is suffering
• 1:44:08
  six hundred years, for example, in Spain, practically of discrimination up to
• 1:44:13
  one thousand nine hundred seventy- eight, which was proclaimed the Constitution and entered
• 1:44:16
  the process of democracy. How is it possible that no one has studied the
• 1:44:19
  gican people since repective, from the social, community, intergnidational traumas, what
• 1:44:27
  consequence that has had No one naga with teaching it. Then there are questions
• 1:44:32
  and approaches that I even name the theories that no one had done, the
• 1:44:38
  theory of shutting up for love. Our mothers let us teach our own self,
• 1:44:43
  because if we talked about it, we were worried or could kill.
• 1:44:46
  And that' s it. We talk about trauma, whether it' s
• 1:44:50
  the theory of shutting up for love, we also talk about the secret,
• 1:44:56
  the grammar, the secret of not saying what the gypsy, the secret genes
• 1:45:01
  the secret gene. Then it' s very complete. The book doesn'
• 1:45:09
  t just tell you about historical events. It is interwoven between anecdotes like the
• 1:45:15
  one you have told us about experiences or you make a simulation of a family
• 1:45:23
  scene, like the one you told us. The latter that identifies identify Let
• 1:45:30
  ' s say the social paradigm of the Gypsies in general, seen from the
• 1:45:34
  outside and how they did not live, not and how they did not live.
• 1:45:38
  For example, I didn' t just want to see July to read
• 1:45:43
  the history of the Gypsy people. In Spain there are hundreds of books,
• 1:45:46
  there are many and some very good, but for you to know how they
• 1:45:50
  lived, how they felt, they had to be described by a gypsy person
• 1:45:58
  and then how they ate, what they did to eat, how they got
• 1:46:00
  up in the morning, what you were going through. One of them died
• 1:46:02
  where I found him. What happened when he wasn' t allowed to make
• 1:46:06
  a deal. What happened when they were already prevented from making a living?
• 1:46:14
  This is the part that I do. What I do is that one has
• 1:46:16
  already done so the reader automatically in what it does is that empatist commented without
• 1:46:23
  much in history gets in to such an extent that in the end I suffer
• 1:46:28
  a lot because I have people and they have already told me about it.
• 1:46:32
  I think there have been ten people who have told me that the book cannot
• 1:46:36
  read it received, that there is already a part of the book where they
• 1:46:43
  suffer so much that it causes anxiety and that they have to stop reading about,
• 1:46:48
  two or three days and then take them back from the intensity it has.
• 1:46:54
  Yes, it is a very intense book, but it is intertwined with
• 1:46:59
  these anecdotes that are very descriptive and also the stories, for example, the
• 1:47:05
  gypsies in the Americas, brief study on slavery in general and especially the slavery
• 1:47:12
  of the gypsies in Romania, the chronology of exhaustive persecution and much more.
• 1:47:18
  The geometry of hatred, the Nazi horror in the fields and many things derived
• 1:47:24
  from them gitated them in England and Scotland and many more. Survival strategies,
• 1:47:29
  the theory of shutting up for love and the power of the verb. There
• 1:47:33
  is, for example, gypsy engineering. It' s also another very interesting
• 1:47:40
  thing you describe here in this book. True yes, I love giving names
• 1:47:53
  to things that society had not named. Gypsy engineering is the ability, resilience,
• 1:48:00
  the ingenuity that a gican people have had to power over it. That
• 1:48:05
  ' s what I had to put my name on. They are social engineers,
• 1:48:10
  of great intentions, of supervisory strategies and there is bread from tricks to
• 1:48:17
  be able to sell a lame horse, as it was to prick an intention
• 1:48:26
  of I do not remember what it was now. I don' t think
• 1:48:29
  I remember now my memory fails, but I' ve got it pointed out
• 1:48:32
  for him to leave. It was like a relaxing pocular, to lengthen his
• 1:48:35
  leg and hide the coast from those tricks that today I could say that'
• 1:48:42
  s an escape, it' s a hidden vice. The moment has been
• 1:48:46
  sold in the midst of that oppression and persecution. If what they had in
• 1:48:51
  a lame burrito or they had to sell it you know, then it goes
• 1:48:57
  from those survival strategies to great intentions of knowing the breasts of nature, of
• 1:49:04
  how to know the time, depending on the flowers, of how to be
• 1:49:11
  able to deduce the time they incline the theriological, depending on how the flowers
• 1:49:15
  were opened or created, of how they left silueles when there was neither the
• 1:49:21
  phone nor the whatsapp to be able to communicate with other relatives of theirs who
• 1:49:27
  came after them. So they' re such nice things that I' ve
• 1:49:31
  been able to investigate, and I' ve been able to scratch every place
• 1:49:36
  that was worth putting together the clears. And there are also survival strategies that
• 1:49:40
  are very hard I speak it, to the rest I speak from my family
• 1:49:44
  ' s team. There were people who had to change their surname to avoid
• 1:49:50
  persecution and tense ones. There are people who have had to live who were
• 1:49:58
  titans in order to survive people, for example, in the UK, who
• 1:50:02
  there, specifically the Gypsies, were very dark when they arrived and called him
• 1:50:06
  the Christian. Also in order to change their appearance they began to mix with
• 1:50:13
  more blonde, whiter or dangerous women so that there would be mutations in the
• 1:50:17
  meth. Imagine to the point, to what extent the engineering of survival was
• 1:50:25
  set in motion to be able to face persecution and death is strong. And
• 1:50:31
  now he' s also invited that there are people and they tell me,
• 1:50:35
  but don' t tell me that. No, don' t count how
• 1:50:38
  I won' t tell if I have a commitment to absolute truth and to
• 1:50:42
  history, as I' m going to. For example, my grandfather,
• 1:50:45
  my father' s military diego, that he was if I gave you your
• 1:50:50
  day of words. Don' t see you. Yes, yes, it
• 1:50:56
  ' s very strong. Yeah, yeah, yeah, look at that jutism.
• 1:51:00
  It changes them a lot gypsy that they had to do it, and
• 1:51:03
  not because they had an ideology from right to cream much less, but because
• 1:51:08
  it was the way to ally you on one side or another in order to
• 1:51:12
  survive, to protect. I can support their families with something exact another acquaintance
• 1:51:17
  that I put in my book as well. Yeah. Yeah, yeah,
• 1:51:19
  yeah, no, it' s not interesting. It' s just that
• 1:51:24
  well I' m going to remind our listeners that we' re talking to
• 1:51:30
  Vargas and look at history of the Gypsy people for Damis the survival of silenced
• 1:51:35
  heroes. Without a doubt they have been now many years ago, they have
• 1:51:40
  not, because we are talking to someone properly gypsy and we have talked and
• 1:51:45
  talked these days with several gypsy intellectuals who, besides they also have a confessional
• 1:51:53
  Christian worldview of life. In addition, this, then, also enriches one
• 1:51:59
  of the already practically last chapters, the brief topic consideration on gypsy identity,
• 1:52:03
  a chapter where the conventional parameters from where they have studied and considered us are
• 1:52:10
  broken and criticized. You tell us a break with anthropology, sociology and a
• 1:52:15
  critique of medicine for not having developed or studied the diseases that concern the Gypsy
• 1:52:20
  people specifically. This, this is big. Yeah, it' s strong.
• 1:52:28
  Yeah, somebody had to say it and it' s my turn.
• 1:52:31
  Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, well, yeah, let' s
• 1:52:35
  start with the first thing that' s been followed by anthropology. No,
• 1:52:40
  yeah, yeah, look, when I was six, I couldn' t
• 1:52:45
  find books referring to the history of the gypsy people. I asked my father,
• 1:52:50
  my good mother, who knows the right of the Gypsy people and always
• 1:52:55
  had the same answer. And that' s already been lost, but it
• 1:53:00
  ' s worth nothing. If we' re still here in the hospital,
• 1:53:04
  there' ll be something. There was such a big void. He stopped
• 1:53:09
  to know. He made me do a lot of research, but until the
• 1:53:12
  eighties and sixs and eighty- seven eighty- eight there were no good publications
• 1:53:15
  on this. Then, a few years later, a prolification of publications and
• 1:53:23
  books begins that certain anthropologists with a very strong respect and consideration at national and
• 1:53:30
  international level. Where they pass that the identity to titana was practically unexcindable,
• 1:53:38
  of the marginality and of the poverty in Lafan. When I read that to
• 1:53:44
  me it' s a very decent I did, a rehearsal people. You
• 1:53:48
  can say that, because of the assimilation, the persecution, the historical and
• 1:53:56
  political processes, the suffering of war, the civil war, the persecution of
• 1:54:00
  the franc, the regime of the Second Republic, that the law that will
• 1:54:04
  catch thugs is not nourished by the frankness of the Second Republic. You can
• 1:54:11
  tell me that, based on all the legislation that has followed logically, there
• 1:54:15
  has not been an ostrafism and an enormous economic, critical and cultural delay and
• 1:54:23
  that is that fr can. But you cannot say that the identity of which
• 1:54:26
  the giants are inextensible from misery, because it is causality. It is the
• 1:54:32
  cause of that time that the book, that part, that specific chapter,
• 1:54:38
  is a criticism, but to the way in which we have been studied,
• 1:54:43
  to the approaches that have been made many cases without ricotor and moreover, we
• 1:54:46
  have been studied in a biased way on the one hand, anthropologists, on
• 1:54:50
  the other, sociologists by others, historians, doctors have not even paid attention
• 1:54:56
  to us. There are many important gretical flats that your friend gtana that because
• 1:55:01
  of this that our culture many times three montabou do not say, but I
• 1:55:06
  know cases where they have been born with three facts and that is very related
• 1:55:13
  also to problems of inbreeding to marry each other cousins brothers, cousins brothers very
• 1:55:18
  many, many problems of hormonals, desutism, women who have a lot of
• 1:55:25
  hairs, even men who have developed breast more than they have had to have
• 1:55:29
  surgery. It has not occurred to anyone to think that it is the result
• 1:55:34
  of many historical causes, it has had a direct impact on health, or
• 1:55:41
  that certain internal circumstances of culture, as in inbreeding, already by result a
• 1:55:45
  series of consequences, a series of diseases. So, the book is also
• 1:55:49
  a criticism of those lack of rigorousness, that lack of study and that lack
• 1:55:56
  of will to contend with a very interesting decr. It becomes essential as we
• 1:56:08
  talk to Sefora Vargas that to enter into matter, I advise our listeners of
• 1:56:14
  the train of life in so many Spanish cities to take this book from the
• 1:56:20
  platform also of Amazon. You are the author Acéfora Vargas, this dear lawyer
• 1:56:30
  and also a lecturer. The story of the Gypsy people for Damis and the
• 1:56:36
  survival of silenced heroes. One topic is the subtitle no, but very interesting
• 1:56:44
  to be up to date and find answers. I believe that social natermination of
• 1:56:50
  the gypsy. I believe we are in a process of change and social change.
• 1:56:58
  I mean. You' re asking me. I say I don'
• 1:57:03
  t think out loud. I am a little costy July, because, in
• 1:57:12
  my view, we have a regression in values, in rights and in the
• 1:57:17
  evolution of the pelostal. If society in general, we are suffering from the
• 1:57:27
  shame of bad political decisions of the covid crisis. After the Covid, the
• 1:57:30
  post Covid has changed the lives of many people and is changing the economic situation
• 1:57:35
  and has left many people in the Gypsy cube. There are other issues that
• 1:57:42
  affect him and especially the mutation. In my view, he could still have
• 1:57:49
  adapted. There are some weighty arguments I don' t want to discuss here.
• 1:57:58
  It is not going to be appropriate, but above all that is related
• 1:58:00
  to radicalist positions of the Bible and interpretations that are sometimes very delicate, that
• 1:58:08
  are very stopped and end up being behaviors are sometimes scavenging where they are re
• 1:58:13
  - invisibilizing and is re- dinnering progress, no longer just the silence of
• 1:58:18
  women. We are talking about progress, the ability to leave, the ability
• 1:58:25
  to work, the ability to work in other jobs, in other social roles.
• 1:58:30
  I believe that everything that evolved in the first moment with the Gospel,
• 1:58:33
  which was extraordinary because it helped many gypsies to get out of that situation of
• 1:58:39
  social exclusion, is today well sectioned by bad paintings. I was remembering your
• 1:58:45
  previous book than about the emancipation of women. Remember is the title called the
• 1:58:54
  price of freedom, which cost some gypsy women to be free. There'
• 1:59:00
  s two of them. This book can also be obtained by Amazon. Also
• 1:59:05
  Yes, the two books are in love with the appreciation of our friend'
• 1:59:10
  s freedom if it were vargas. It was dealt with there, Yes,
• 1:59:17
  it was about the she specific approach of women, as it is logical,
• 1:59:20
  although in this one I also do, because in this book I talk about
• 1:59:23
  the Marine system. The marine system is inspired by the system of the pure
• 1:59:28
  and unimpure, as it could in the Old Testament, in the Jewish seye
• 1:59:30
  of purity, impurity and woman. And how today, because we continue to
• 1:59:35
  be unconsciously affected by that scroll and continue to determine customs. But the Book
• 1:59:43
  of Enterprises of Freedom, my Strong Book, where you check the price that
• 1:59:47
  cost us that first generation of gypsy women break with social bites, we suffer
• 1:59:55
  trigeo, quadruple, description and create new gypsy identities, new values, a
• 2:00:02
  thing as simple as it is to show that studying as until you lose your
• 2:00:09
  identity as a gypsy gave us blood, sweat and tear. I remember going
• 2:00:15
  for the merchadin myself and many people criticized and looked at me badly. I
• 2:00:18
  remember and in pants and condemn myself and put in sin three quarters of the
• 2:00:24
  titan population and trousers front in our meshes that are put on. Now that
• 2:00:28
  they all mark it, then everything that has symbolized a self- determining and
• 2:00:35
  camera exercise on the xican woman is still a conviction. He' s still
• 2:00:42
  a danger. He' s a Christ of danger. Two days ago,
• 2:00:45
  I received attacks from angelic pastors, where she spoke to me as if I
• 2:00:51
  had been a vulgar feminist. You' re a vulgar feminist Look at the
• 2:00:58
  camentelable hour. Forgive ignorance is magnified and ignorance is very bad, ignorance of
• 2:01:04
  things, of the identity of people, of the reality of things. And
• 2:01:12
  of course, ignorance is very daring. And then, well, that is
• 2:01:16
  why these contemptuous attitudes are born and between us it happens not only in the
• 2:01:24
  Gypsy people, but in the Christian people in general. There is a lot
• 2:01:29
  of ignorance, a lot, but a magnified ignorance and you have to get
• 2:01:33
  out of that circle. Yes, yes, yes, yes, many times
• 2:01:36
  my own father, my brother, tells me, but don' t write
• 2:01:42
  anything, but let' s see. Forgive what my profession is, that
• 2:01:45
  all revolutions began by an act of rebellion, especially the laws, and are
• 2:01:49
  unjust or unconstitutional or contrary to human rights. They can' t be respected
• 2:01:58
  as simple as that is legitimate is the but of course, that' s
• 2:02:04
  easy to say, but you face it every day by saying woman and being
• 2:02:09
  gypsy, it can complicate the truth. Yeah, well, thank you,
• 2:02:12
  Jadeo. He' s been very brave. That forum has been very brave.
• 2:02:15
  If I congratulate you, thank you very much. I really do.
• 2:02:20
  Besides, you' re saying things of common sense and against humanity and besides,
• 2:02:29
  things that both inside and outside. We have to make a bet a
• 2:02:32
  day of this, of this kind of principles and, of course, the
• 2:02:38
  theme of your book is also very interesting. I think we' ll be
• 2:02:42
  able to enjoy it. You have to enjoy this book History of the Gypsy
• 2:02:45
  people for Damis the survival of silenced heroes and they have certainly been silenced.
• 2:02:51
  But not anymore, it' s not over anymore. You have to break
• 2:02:56
  the silence and leave varga. It' s being built. That' s
• 2:03:00
  it, so be out. The truth is that it has been a great
• 2:03:03
  pleasure to talk to you, listen to you, listen to your statements and
• 2:03:10
  listen to your heart, that this is what I like to hear better.
• 2:03:13
  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, well, I just don' t
• 2:03:15
  know how to talk about another humanity that I' m honest with and always
• 2:03:20
  go straight ahead, despite the consequences, so I always tell the truth,
• 2:03:25
  not as doomed to tell the truth, but I wanted to thank you.
• 2:03:28
  Thank you for giving me a hole in your beautiful show. Thank you size
• 2:03:34
  visibility, the story that so concrete today in Mira and for doing this beautiful
• 2:03:39
  and wonderful interview with a lot of pleasure and an honor. He' s
• 2:03:44
  with you. Thank you very much, with pleasure, eager to greet you
• 2:03:47
  on one of my visits to Seville and see us there that I have so
• 2:03:51
  many friends, it will be a pleasure, an honor. Meet you in
• 2:03:55
  person, of course I do. Of course I do. This year it
• 2:03:58
  is planned that Go, for good, because until soon sephora, we speak
• 2:04:03
  again and God Median will continue to travel on the train of life. Likewise,
• 2:04:09
  yes, goodbye, many blessings. Bye bye Chaoy I have the decesity
• 2:04:54
  of my soul of Ramba. I want to brown your man oy. I
• 2:05:06
  want to stop the time locked in my room. I want to worship your
• 2:05:21
  man you are, and I want to break the jar that I keep for
• 2:05:42
  years and to branch it to your foot venerfomar your holy throne on my knees
• 2:06:14
  and chorado proclaim that love venguadorta love before you show amara, venguadorata loves before
• 2:06:45
  you, show him or I don' t want to ask you to walk
• 2:07:00
  away, I want to see you pour out the alarm, I want to
• 2:07:00
  see you a king, offer you a young man. To dedicate these words
• 2:07:08
  to you only. Oy want to promise me the fraspo that keeps durandaño and
• 2:07:25
  brother your smoke your throne holy dero say lady, proclaim you want to look
• 2:07:57
  venguara mana amara before it shows me bites me, mom, before showing mom,
• 2:08:26
  come guarate, mom before prostra? When they called my or beloved,
• 2:09:22
  we love me we anterior plama ma venguadora, loves before prostra until the one
• 2:10:01
  coming today closer than ever we invite you to the second edition of this Interdenominational
• 2:10:09
  Congress aimed at the whole Body of Christ in Spain and Europe, which will
• 2:10:15
  take place from 26th to 28th April in the Fira de Reus, Tarragona.
• 2:10:18
  With us will be international speakers Mariano sen Igual, Benjamin Núñez and Marcos Brunet
• 2:10:26
  All Walton wamado bi bu famed. For more information you can enter our wwwww
• 2:10:39
  website. Until he comes point is either write to the six about, six,
• 2:10:46
  eight, eight, one, five, seven, one, six hundred,
• 2:10:52
  sixteen, eight hundred eighty- one, five hundred seventy- one and
• 2:10:56
  consult prices and registration modalities. Do not miss the opportunity to participate in this
• 2:11:01
  great call. Until he comes. Until he comes to her, he prunes
• 2:11:09
  home before turia and ramado and everything or you will see the train of life,
• 2:11:33
  an exciting journey along the routes of the heart, an unforgettable journey at
• 2:11:39
  the pace of clan train so much or, ladies and gentlemen, we continue
• 2:12:37
  on the train of life. Antonio, how are you, how are you
• 2:12:41
  doing out there, in your town, where are you exactly good? I
• 2:12:46
  ' m in the palms of Grancanaria. I don' t know if I
• 2:12:48
  ' m heard perfect now. Yeah, all right, good day, thank
• 2:12:52
  God. Yeah, a little frisket, but we' re going hot.
• 2:12:58
  All right, all right. Antonio, Antonio, Antonio Carmona, also graduated
• 2:13:05
  in Theology, Doctor in Divinities, magnificent writer. Where you know, we
• 2:13:11
  were talking to your cousin, José Carmona, about the subject we are talking
• 2:13:20
  about this morning about the whole Gypsy world and how you give him personality and
• 2:13:30
  also historical contributions to make a social pedagogy of what is the history of the
• 2:13:39
  Gypsy people in general and also the Gypsy world in Spain and their contributions and
• 2:13:46
  their real needs. So here we are this morning talking about this, but
• 2:13:54
  talking about your books. Precisely you have a book before the last that you
• 2:13:56
  have published Freedom for the Forgotten, what you wanted to do with this book,
• 2:14:01
  what you wanted to say what your message was. Well, this book
• 2:14:05
  was my master' s thesis in the know yes, and what I intended
• 2:14:11
  is to claim those forgotten ones that we have been the gypsies for a long
• 2:14:16
  time and from the theological point of view, for I have tried to make
• 2:14:22
  my pinitos, as it is usually said, because I have spoken of liberation
• 2:14:24
  theology. It was practically a people oppressed by the society we lived in and
• 2:14:31
  where we lived and had hopes. Our hope has been the word of God,
• 2:14:35
  the living Christ, which has been transformed into our hearts and that the
• 2:14:39
  Gypsy community is a community with great power, much, this is a church
• 2:14:46
  with great potential and good, today we can see it in the Church of
• 2:14:50
  Philadelphia and other Gypsy churches that have done extraordinary work in our country. Yeah,
• 2:14:56
  yeah, that' s exactly what we' re talking about. But
• 2:15:00
  you, speaking there of Christians, that is, of this world, of
• 2:15:05
  the forgotten, referred to marginality, truth freedom part of marginality, of course,
• 2:15:11
  from the point of view, well, what was a multidisciplinary study from
• 2:15:16
  an anthropological, philosophical, theological, historical point of view and also to know
• 2:15:24
  a little bit about the history of the Gypsy people and how we inserted ourselves
• 2:15:31
  in Spain. Yeah, well, this book is also available. You can
• 2:15:37
  get it on Amazon, right good. I think so, the book was
• 2:15:43
  distributed by scaffolding. Yes, and now possibly another publisher will edit it.
• 2:15:50
  I think it' ll be just a trust in this project. All right,
• 2:15:54
  very good perfect for those interested. And let' s talk about this
• 2:16:00
  last book, which is yours, before going on to give the review of
• 2:16:05
  this book, The Bible, from its beginnings to the translations in Spanish,
• 2:16:09
  spoken a little bit of you. Antonio Carmona, Heredia, graduated in Theology
• 2:16:16
  from the Martín Lutter King University of Nincaragua, graduated in Pastoral Theology from the
• 2:16:22
  Center for Biblical Research ciby also has a master' s degree in Theology from
• 2:16:28
  the same Center of Studies Knows in Tenerife, Spain, an honorary doctorate in
• 2:16:33
  Divinities and a bachelor' s degree in Theology from the Doctor wilds Hower Theological
• 2:16:41
  Seminary in Chile. You also have a degree in theology from the Universidad del
• 2:16:46
  Norte de España, seat of Burgos. Anyway, you' ve devoted yourself
• 2:16:50
  to matter in depth for many years. Bible and Truth Theology. Well,
• 2:16:56
  yeah, I really liked studying because I thought that one needed training. Well,
• 2:17:03
  I think it' s important to train, because it' s important
• 2:17:07
  to talk about the word, but with a formation, because if we don
• 2:17:13
  ' t have training then the problems come and I think we need to be
• 2:17:16
  careful. And in addition, the Lord tells us in his word that we
• 2:17:18
  have to prepare ourselves. No, and now the forties or fifties are over.
• 2:17:24
  We are already in the year two thousand twenty- four and well,
• 2:17:28
  I' ve been preparing for some time now some long years. But we
• 2:17:33
  must prepare ourselves because we have to bear witness and reason for our faith.
• 2:17:39
  That' s right and you' ve collaborated on different literary projects, such
• 2:17:43
  as Clie' s Great Dictionary of the Psychopleric Bible, various journals of scientific
• 2:17:50
  and academic kracter of Jornald and also, well, the book we' re
• 2:17:56
  mentioning to you. Freedom for the forgotten, this gypsy theological perspective, which
• 2:18:01
  was also published by Editorial Mundo Bíblico and your book Now The Bible, from
• 2:18:05
  its beginnings to translations in Spanish, and you have also collaborated in You have
• 2:18:13
  made contributions in the Bible that Clie has recently published on the patristic contributions of
• 2:18:20
  the church' s parents. Also in this book you do a collaboration.
• 2:18:26
  Yeah, I' ve worked on four final articles, mostly related to my
• 2:18:31
  book. Talked a little bit about the text of Hebraico, the sextualient of
• 2:18:35
  the Vulgate and yet another subject, very interesting Antonio The Bible since its origins.
• 2:18:46
  This book has two distinct parts, as expressed in the subtitle, from
• 2:18:52
  its beginnings to Spanish translations. In the first part of dedicating the yes in
• 2:19:00
  the first pages, the first four chapters, and in them dealing with the
• 2:19:05
  questions of the formation of the Old Testament and the role of the Greek version,
• 2:19:11
  also of the Septuagint and the new Latin translation of the Old Testament by
• 2:19:16
  Jerome from the Hebrew. And in these pages you make some very interesting contributions
• 2:19:24
  towards a gross synthetic way, the Bible is a miracle book. If it
• 2:19:31
  ' s a miracle book, right, I haven' t heard it.
• 2:19:33
  The Bible you believe that because of the avatars you have suffered, the Bible
• 2:19:37
  is a miracle book. Let us have it the way we really have it
• 2:19:43
  today. After so many centuries, the word of God in our hands is
• 2:19:48
  a story of salvation that God has wanted for His people with an insert that
• 2:19:54
  is to save His people from the sin of death and lead us to eternal
• 2:19:58
  life. Of course, that' s what I mean. But the processes
• 2:20:01
  that have occurred have passed. It has been unique and exclusive, that is,
• 2:20:07
  how it is formed from oral tradition to the written form where we have
• 2:20:13
  our Bibles today. This has been an incredible journey and, above all,
• 2:20:18
  of many circumstances, because the formation of the old one has been tremendous,
• 2:20:26
  how it has reached us the new one, how it has been reworking and
• 2:20:33
  writing all the concepts and purposes that we have today in the Christian world.
• 2:20:37
  And besides, it' s been something supernatural. I believe in the supernatural,
• 2:20:43
  because God is in the supernatural and this has been the great miracle the
• 2:20:48
  great miracle which is the word of God. We have already done it Carmen
• 2:20:52
  Christ, but now he has come, as the Epistle said to the Hebrews
• 2:20:56
  God, having spoken in many ways, in many ways, on these last
• 2:21:00
  day, he has spoken to us in the son and son in the written
• 2:21:03
  word we have today, and I believe that this is preeminent. Not before
• 2:21:09
  a society where he does not believe, because the issue of postmodernity and relativism
• 2:21:13
  has come a little. God' s Word serves constantly before a society that
• 2:21:20
  needs God and many people ask me well what you are the people who carry
• 2:21:26
  the book. We don' t just carry a book. We are living
• 2:21:33
  our Christian life, as that book says, which is the word of God,
• 2:21:37
  and I believe that is preeminent in the midst of us. Julio Antonio,
• 2:21:41
  the second part of your book The Bible from its beginnings, that there
• 2:21:46
  is a lot of material written to consult and enjoy in this work by Antonio
• 2:21:54
  Carmona, Heredia until translations in Spanish languages. The second part, by contrast,
• 2:22:01
  is much longer. It occupies two thirds of the book, from page
• 2:22:07
  ninety- nine to three hundred and thirty- one and focuses on the history
• 2:22:11
  of the Bible in Spain and first facing the arrival of Christianity, its texts,
• 2:22:18
  also original to the Iberian peninsula and also translations into the language of Cervantes.
• 2:22:26
  It' s all very important. How interesting is the story of the
• 2:22:31
  Bible in Spain? You can advance us a little bit to make a mouth
• 2:22:37
  so you can have books later. One of the first July chapters, I
• 2:22:41
  did not say, were introductory chapters and then reached the heart of the book,
• 2:22:48
  the epicenter of the book. We speak, for example, the text
• 2:22:52
  of the old one, the text of the new one. We' re
• 2:22:56
  talking about the sexualite, about her formation. We spoke practically the early Christians,
• 2:23:03
  the patristic theme of how the theme of the Bible is developed, and
• 2:23:07
  how they understood the subject of literature. Then we came practically to the Middle
• 2:23:11
  Ages and their romanced and subsequent Bibles. And then we conclude we enter the
• 2:23:16
  part that affects us most in the Christian evangelical world, which is the world
• 2:23:22
  of how the Bible enters Spain. This is his first moment and then the
• 2:23:26
  epoch of the sixteenth century unfolds, the humanism that enters Spain, from Juan
• 2:23:33
  de Valdés, how all humanism and humanist concepts are formed, the development of
• 2:23:39
  Cardinal Cisnero, the problem of the Bible, complutense polyglot, complutense, matritense,
• 2:23:48
  well, all the development and then we reach the great ones. The
• 2:23:54
  great problem of reform that also enters Spain. A lot of people say there
• 2:24:01
  were no reforms. Yes, there have been reforms, because there are Christians
• 2:24:05
  and there has been the blood of the martyrs who have persisted and among them,
• 2:24:09
  for example, we can see the whole problem in the convent of the
• 2:24:15
  Saint Jeromes to Casidoro de Reinas, to Citiano de Valera and others who leave
• 2:24:18
  there and then exile. And there they write the Bible, the Bible that
• 2:24:24
  we have, that we use the evangelical world, which is Queen Valera.
• 2:24:28
  And then, then, I also talk about Francisco, Encina, Pérez de
• 2:24:33
  Pineda, thus giving a space to some important issues that many people don'
• 2:24:41
  t even know about. July, but I have left a very interesting footer
• 2:24:46
  system so that people can expand, because, of course, to cover so
• 2:24:52
  many centuries we would have to make seven or eight books as minimums to write
• 2:24:58
  the history of the Bible, but I have left a lot of material so
• 2:25:03
  that they can enjoy it and then I continue. In this part I speak
• 2:25:07
  a chapter of the Bible, of the history of the Bible in America,
• 2:25:11
  Christopher Columbus in the courtesy Pizarro, important corporators who carried the word all that
• 2:25:18
  movement And of course, in that movement, here, in Spain, there
• 2:25:22
  was a problem. The Bible was forbidden to read in Spanish, it is
• 2:25:26
  not Latin, but in Spanish it was forbidden and the only one that had
• 2:25:33
  circulated at that time was the queen, that of Casidoro de Reina and then
• 2:25:37
  Cipiano de Valera. What it does is correct some things and it goes on
• 2:25:41
  And then, already, well, I talk a little bit about biblical society,
• 2:25:46
  the movement of biblical society back in the 20th century and what had happened
• 2:25:48
  in Francoism and the own translations that they have made of the Bible, that
• 2:25:56
  is, clearly, well, they are very interesting, especially in the 20th
• 2:26:01
  century. At the end of the 20th and 21st centuries, translations of the
• 2:26:09
  Bible have multiplied. There are all the most accurate discoloured versions, plus some
• 2:26:16
  that connect to the oldest manuscripts as far as possible. That' s why
• 2:26:22
  I told you that the Bible Anthony is I consider it the Miracle Book,
• 2:26:28
  because with so many avatars and the Bible was also preserved a lot. Many
• 2:26:33
  manuscripts of the Bible were preserved in the monasteries of friars, which preserved many
• 2:26:41
  of the true documents. Of course, I have elaborated the topic of the
• 2:26:48
  Middle Ages and there in Madrid, that there is an immense exhibition of manuscripts
• 2:26:54
  in the Escorial. I' ve picked up a lot of things and from
• 2:26:56
  other sides. Then of course, the relationship of knowledge. He went on
• 2:27:03
  his own to convents, monasteries and then to universities. That is the educational
• 2:27:09
  project that exists for the extension of knowledge. And there it will imply the
• 2:27:15
  word of God the Bible. Of course, of course, the Bible was
• 2:27:20
  not accessible to you, you say, of course only the clerical caste that
• 2:27:26
  studied Latin in seminaries and churches, was practiced in Latin Masses and Latin Readings,
• 2:27:33
  but of course there was no access to the people in the times.
• 2:27:37
  That' s why success. Not only Luther in Germany, his first translation
• 2:27:41
  into German, into popular German, but also in Spain, Queen’ s
• 2:27:50
  cassiodor make the Bible accessible to the people who were genoese. Neither the Catholic
• 2:27:56
  vulgate nor any of these bibles were of popular access. Good truth. There
• 2:28:03
  has always been the problem since Emperor Charles V came to stay in Yuste,
• 2:28:09
  because he cannot deal with the whole subject of the Luther. The problem that
• 2:28:13
  arises is that Philip II, his son, also does not let any Bible
• 2:28:18
  enter that is in Castellano, and less that of Protestants. Then not only
• 2:28:24
  maquí, but in the new world, as burning bibles. And how there
• 2:28:28
  is a whole contradiction to having Bibles in Castellano. It is only later when
• 2:28:35
  there is an encyclical of the Pope, much later, centuries later that it
• 2:28:39
  gives to the avenue to be able to translate. And in fact, in
• 2:28:41
  the forties, when the Abbot begins, the famous nacar Bible Colunga, which
• 2:28:46
  is a Bible that began to translate the Catholic Church into Spanish, comes out.
• 2:28:54
  It is necessary to recognize and beyond the deutorocanonics that the many Colunga nacars
• 2:29:01
  to the Jerusalem Bible. Several Catholic versions, the Bulgata are good translations of
• 2:29:09
  the Bible with the additions of those of the deutorocanonians, evidently appearing also in
• 2:29:16
  the Ajinta section. Right, the Torocanonians. Yes, yes, it appears
• 2:29:22
  in the sectional. The problem is we have. It is very practical that
• 2:29:26
  the problem of knowing Hebrew and Greek. A man makes a subcursor and does
• 2:29:31
  it, but the problem is to turn it into Spanish. The Spanish knowledge,
• 2:29:35
  the twists, the modisms, the form. There' s the question.
• 2:29:41
  For example, we have translations into Spanish, such as modern ones,
• 2:29:46
  such as the Pilgrim' s Bible or the new Spanish Bible or others that
• 2:29:50
  are more up- to- date, for example, from the Episcopal Offer,
• 2:29:56
  which are wonderful translations. But we also have, for example, the
• 2:29:58
  Biblical Society of the Word that has come out new. I remember, for
• 2:30:03
  example, from my friend Plutarconilla, from the Kingdom of ninety- five,
• 2:30:07
  who updated things to say, language every twenty years is related, renewed and
• 2:30:11
  translations are needed for the current world to be added to that kind of language.
• 2:30:18
  Yes, in fact, I am part of the Board of Directors of
• 2:30:20
  the Bible Society of Spain and well, we released the Bible of Queen Valera
• 2:30:26
  two thousand twenty. That review by Bible writers in depth, where terms that
• 2:30:33
  have been translated still take great care of the essences of grammar, because that
• 2:30:39
  the Bibleists are very rigorous in that, which is a very very very,
• 2:30:46
  very specialized plant on the subject, but terms like Jehovah, who was a
• 2:30:50
  man, who is the key name or Jehovah popularly in the old versions,
• 2:30:56
  the Lord says God then says that on a popular level. It is more
• 2:31:05
  because you realize that when the name of Jehovah was mentioned, not many years
• 2:31:09
  ago, people related us to Jehovah’ s Witnesses, telling them as if
• 2:31:13
  we were all, because they did a very popular job, they went through
• 2:31:18
  the floors, through the houses and although they were a minority that in their
• 2:31:22
  time grew quite, it seemed they were the owners. On the contrary,
• 2:31:31
  they adulterated the Bible text with the new tradition, the new translation into the
• 2:31:37
  new world, because Jehovah’ s Witnesses. They originally used Queen Valera until
• 2:31:41
  they had their own, their own translation. But, of course, Jehovah
• 2:31:46
  ’ s name, which is God’ s name, be it understood that
• 2:31:50
  Jehovah already sees in Hebrew or the consonants who put on vowels to give them
• 2:31:54
  phonetics. But the matter, for Jehovah, Jehovah, is as if he
• 2:32:01
  had a bad press, the name of Jeova. Popularly not, but now,
• 2:32:07
  in the new version of the two thousand and twenty of biblical society,
• 2:32:11
  the term is God. The Lord said God said, and such that it
• 2:32:16
  is popularly understood. And other terms and other grammatical adjustments, prayers much better
• 2:32:24
  adapted to the grammatical mentality of contemporary, without losing the essences. And that
• 2:32:31
  ' s very important. Not well, I recently read a book by an
• 2:32:37
  author named Thomas Rome. It is called The Invention of God, a wonderful
• 2:32:43
  book where it is studied thoroughly the name of Iabé No and of course it
• 2:32:48
  explains everything you have said about the subject of Jehovah’ s vowels at the
• 2:32:52
  end of a mistake by a man who copied. Well, that' s
• 2:32:58
  what happened. But the good thing about all these things, Julio, is
• 2:33:01
  that we now have knowledge and we have to go back to the path.
• 2:33:05
  Thus, correction is something precious, sometimes it hurts, but it produces its
• 2:33:11
  effect. No, and when we begin to talk about the verb being in
• 2:33:16
  Hebrew the famous Hayat, we understand what it is already sees and how,
• 2:33:20
  for example, in the text, practically when it speaks of exodus that it
• 2:33:26
  sees its people suffering that verb, it must be the almighty God of Abranda.
• 2:33:31
  Isa reveals in that flame of fire in the middle of the sauce,
• 2:33:35
  that that is very important. The great I am the great I am clear
• 2:33:41
  because the Jews to God the unprovoked. It will separate the Adona and the
• 2:33:50
  Lord. Okay. There are the names of God that appear in the scriptures
• 2:33:54
  themselves, the Salai, the Adonai and many names, but just like Jave
• 2:34:01
  and Jehovah. Of course to them it was the unprovoked because they, for
• 2:34:05
  them, had the name of God sacred and did not want to profane it
• 2:34:11
  in any way. To take the name of God in vain was at least
• 2:34:15
  a somewhat legalistic view, but it was their own fear, or not to
• 2:34:20
  say, or God' s terror that they had about these things. But
• 2:34:24
  it is good that we can have the Bible from its beginnings to translations with
• 2:34:31
  tongues, also in more recent versions. And that' s where he takes
• 2:34:37
  a tour. Our dear friend and brother Antonio Carmona Heredia. I' ve
• 2:34:43
  talked to you before about your previous book too. But how good that we
• 2:34:48
  can his previous work, freedom for the forgotten that has to do with the
• 2:34:54
  gypsy world, a vision, a gypsy theological perspective, also very interesting that
• 2:35:01
  there is some point more than you. You' d stand out from your
• 2:35:07
  book for our listeners to say good this book, let' s lay hands
• 2:35:13
  on him to be groggy, it seems true. Yeah, I think so.
• 2:35:16
  A hundred and two things, from the two books of mine, which
• 2:35:20
  I think are a contribution because writing for what is already written. I'
• 2:35:24
  m sure there are a lot of people better than me who write better than
• 2:35:28
  me Julio, but honestly, for example, the subject of freedom for the
• 2:35:33
  forgotten. It is important that many people know the Gypsy world, because they
• 2:35:37
  do not know it if we live here in Spain. We' re Spanish,
• 2:35:41
  but they don' t know much about our customs. In our form,
• 2:35:45
  in this book, at least, I try to make the history of
• 2:35:48
  the Gypsies known in a brief chapter and, above all, the weight of
• 2:35:52
  what it brings in a society, racism and xenophobia. The problem that brings
• 2:35:58
  us closer, as Manuel says, to elevating the other age, the one
• 2:36:01
  in front of me suffering and I believe that my people have suffered many,
• 2:36:07
  many racisms and many impediments so that they can reach many places and the other
• 2:36:15
  book. Yes, I would like to tell you that there is a thread
• 2:36:18
  in the book of the Bible and the drivers that you have to look deeply
• 2:36:26
  at this text of this book, because it has cost me a lot to
• 2:36:33
  gather so much data, but it is important with that one that there is
• 2:36:33
  a thread. The word of God remains forever and comes to pass from the
• 2:36:37
  avatars with a statement that is salvation. It is a story of salvation,
• 2:36:45
  and that Bible has cost a lot of blood, a lot of sweat,
• 2:36:50
  a lot of tears, and today many people do not value it. And
• 2:36:52
  it is important that we value the word of God. I was recently preaching
• 2:36:58
  at a place I was invited to and a brother was saying to see.
• 2:37:01
  Hey, you sent people up when you were gonna talk about the word.
• 2:37:05
  Of course, if God is present, if he had King Oes, there
• 2:37:09
  was another a president of the state, you would not rise as he passed
• 2:37:13
  by, for we will rise to give glory to the Lord. What I
• 2:37:16
  have tried with this book is to give the glory to the Lord knowing it
• 2:37:20
  is not the story and the avatars that have happened so that we have that
• 2:37:24
  precious book, which is the Bible, the word of God, because the
• 2:37:31
  truth is that I believe that many of our listeners are going to say we
• 2:37:35
  want to take advantage of this book, get it from the platform of amazon.
• 2:37:39
  Almost everything can be achieved there. And if you forgive July this book,
• 2:37:45
  you can do it with the last one that has been published alone to
• 2:37:48
  Fide, if you can do it on the website is the FIDE editorial cefes
• 2:37:52
  Solafide. Yes, sir, it' s very intense. Can you ask
• 2:37:54
  that it is in order to be able to ask perfect only fi of the
• 2:38:01
  publisher only fide perfect, perfect, even more direct and the publisher of angelican
• 2:38:07
  is Yes? Yeah? Yeah? Yeah? That' s great, that
• 2:38:07
  ' s great? Well, Antonio, I really appreciate your appearance. I
• 2:38:13
  congratulate you on these two books, which are very interesting contributions, One from
• 2:38:20
  the theological perspective, also gypsy and also from society regarding that important minority in
• 2:38:30
  the Gypsy world. But then also this book of the Bible, this from
• 2:38:35
  its origins to the most recent translations, which we are always interested in the
• 2:38:41
  Bible. We are the people of the book. The Bible is the master
• 2:38:46
  ' s book, the master' s book of life. He has stories,
• 2:38:52
  has stories, has poetry, has biographical records about the person of Jesus
• 2:39:00
  has epistolary letters from the apostles, especially from the apostle Paul. And then
• 2:39:05
  he has books also the biblical apocalyptic, such as the book of Daniel,
• 2:39:13
  the book of Revelation, very important that have a connection after seven hundred years
• 2:39:22
  later history. They have a prophetic connection in very important parts that authenticate the
• 2:39:30
  prophetic message of the apostles. Anyway, it' s for when you find
• 2:39:35
  out that the Bible is God' s book and that it' s like
• 2:39:41
  discovering the, say, the secret of life. The great secrets of life
• 2:39:45
  are revealed in the Bible. So, well, then, let' s
• 2:39:50
  get rid of this book of our friend and dear brother Antonio Carmona. Heredia.
• 2:39:56
  The Bible from its origins to the most recent translations. Antonio, my
• 2:40:05
  dear friend, I send you a very affectionate hug. Thank you so much
• 2:40:09
  for inviting me to July and the second time. I thank you so much
• 2:40:13
  for being able to talk about my books and for being able to collaborate with
• 2:40:18
  you, which has been a pleasure and an honor to be here on your
• 2:40:20
  show. Of course, for me, I' ll send you a hug
• 2:40:22
  forever. Until always I miss the train of life, an exciting journey along
• 2:40:46
  the routes of the heart, an unforgettable trip at the pace of trem the
• 2:41:07
  evangelical churches a place of peace and friendship. You can freely attend the nearest
• 2:41:13
  evangelical church in your neighborhood or your population. You' ll be very welcome.