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Movie Review: The Sacrament · Conspiracy! The Show

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Hey everybody, this is Adam, host of this podcast. Don't
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: skip this. It's not an ad This is going to
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: be real quick, just dropping in to let you know.
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: This episode was originally recorded and released as a subscriber
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: exclusive right around this time last year. Back then, it
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: was a bonus episode that was part of our super
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: deep dive into the Jonestown Conspiracy. The subject of this episode,
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: in particular is the twenty thirteen found footage horror film
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: The Sacrament, which was loosely and or very faithfully based
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: on the Jonestown tragedy, depending on how you look at it.
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: The names of the people and locations are changed, and
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: it's set in the twenty tens. But also a lot
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: of what happens in the movie is a beat for
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: beat retelling of Congressman Leo Ryan's disastrous visit to Jonestown,
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: except in this case, it's a group of vice journalists
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: and one of them is trying to rescue his sister.
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: So it's like if instead of the government sending someone
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: cool to check out Jonestown, they send a bunch of
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: ice reporters. We're re releasing the episode now for a
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: couple of reasons. First, and most important. As you might
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: have noticed last week, the show is on a very
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: very short break, and by that I mean we'll be
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: back to releasing new episodes next week. As for why
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: we landed on this particular episode to cover our vacation
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: is because it's at least tangentially related to something happening
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: right now. That something is a horror movie called X,
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: which is in theaters right now. It's in a twenty
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: four production, so it's getting a lot of buzz for
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: that reason alone. The people who brought you Lamb. If
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: you haven't seen Lamb, holy shit. But also the reviews
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: are good and the movie is good. I saw it yesterday.
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: Very weird, very creepy, very much did not realize one
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: of the characters was rapper Kid Cuddy in real life.
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: Spoiler he plays the old woman anyway. The tie that
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: binds the twenty thirteen found footage horror film The Sacrament
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: and the twenty twenty two regular footage horror film X
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: is director Ti West. He's an up and coming horror director.
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: If you're a fan of the genre, you know the name.
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: X is probably the most high profile project he's released
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: so far, unless you count the first VHS movie as
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: high Profile, which I do love that franchise. Check it
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: out sometime. And all that said, I just want to
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: reassure you this isn't sponsored content or anything like that.
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: I mean, not that we're above sponsored content. Come on,
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: you've listened to this show. But I personally find a
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: lot of Tie West movies overrated and a little boring.
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: But I liked X a whole lot, and The Sacrament
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: is probably my second favorite Ti West movie. Maybe the
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: House of the Devil, but uh, I even like that's
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: a little overrated. But hey, watch them all and decide
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: for yourself. And yeah, that is the entire reason why
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: we decided to release this episode on our week off.
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: Keep it simple. Stupid, you know, it's what they say,
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: not to me because I'm not stupid, great, but they
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: say it to people who are stupid. So with all
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: that out of the way, let's get to the episode again.
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: This is an old one features Laura Crawford, who will
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: be back at some point. She's been working on a
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: TV show as my co host, and Andy Sell, who
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: is normally my co host on the un Pop's music podcasts.
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: He hosts a podcast on the network called Ghoule School
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: and he is here to delve into Tye West's the
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: Sacrament with us this week, meaning this week, like a
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: year ago, just under a year ago, like nine days short.
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: Does all of that matter? No, thanks for listening. We
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: love you.
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: Let's get to the show, Destroy Winter Insurance.
• 4:07
  Speaker 3: I'm a checkt both the church.
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: That is wait, audls.
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Well, welcome to Conspiracy the Show. I'm Adam
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: Todd Brown, my co host this week, Laura Crawford. Hey, everybody, Hi,
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: and we have a guest, how rare. We almost never
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: have guests on this podcast. Andy Sell is here.
• 4:44
  Speaker 3: Andy ha, Oh okay, we're doing that.
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but hi, Andy has a podcast on the network
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: called Ghoule School that is back in full effect. All so, also,
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: my co host on a series of un Pop's music podcast,
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: We're we're gonna do another one soon. We were gonna
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: do Marilyn Manson and then all that shit broke out.
• 5:12
  Speaker 3: I can't do that, and so now.
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: We're back to the drawing board. This is a bonus Episodeknot.
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: By the way, Slipknot would be interesting. Maybe I don't know,
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: maybe they have been boring as fucking back. Maybe yeah,
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: maybe they're super boring, and they wear those fucking masks
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: to hide it. No idea, But this is a bonus
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: episode where Neck deep in researching the theory that Jonestown
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: was a CIA medical experiment and Dad needs a break
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: from all that research. So we're we're doing a really
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: lighthearted bonus episode this week where we're we're discussing a
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: horror movie called The Sacrament, which is loosely but also
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: not that loosely based on Jones Town.
• 6:00
  Speaker 4: Yes, it's a boyfriend fit adaptation of the Jonestown story.
• 6:04
  Speaker 4: It's not a Carpenter pant. I'm just trying to think
• 6:08
  Speaker 4: of the looseness of this adaptation. It's it's it's it's
• 6:11
  Speaker 4: got a good hold on you. You know, It's like
• 6:13
  Speaker 4: squeezing a trigger.
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: Isn't it. Yeah. What's interesting is the names are changed
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: and a lot of the like the details like that
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: are changed. But it actually kind of nails the sequence
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: of events that led to the end of Jonestown and
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: the mass murder that happened at the end. Stop calling
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: it a mass suicide. People, most of those people were murdered.
• 6:37
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it is a Yeah, mass suicide's not really the
• 6:39
  Speaker 4: way to frame it. And it is a misnomer that's
• 6:41
  Speaker 4: been applied over the years. I was excited when you
• 6:43
  Speaker 4: sent me this because not because I'm excited to watch
• 6:46
  Speaker 4: eli Roth horror movies. Oh no, no, no, never excited
• 6:48
  Speaker 4: about that, but I was. I was like, oh, interesting,
• 6:52
  Speaker 4: it's like a Jonestown film. And I've seen Jonestown things before.
• 6:55
  Speaker 4: I think I've seen where, Oh dude, who's that guy?
• 6:59
  Speaker 4: Power's Booth plays Jim Jones, I've seen Powers. Who doesn't God,
• 7:06
  Speaker 4: he's just Zesty's Assault of the Earth. He's yeah, he's
• 7:10
  Speaker 4: a powerful man, powerful, he's in powerful powers?
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: And what did what did you think of this movie?
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: I know you've seen it.
• 7:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it's been a minute. I've seen it.
• 7:21
  Speaker 5: I've seen it, I think twice, maybe three times, but
• 7:24
  Speaker 5: it's it has been a little while. But I so
• 7:26
  Speaker 5: this was all of those movies that before it was released.
• 7:29
  Speaker 5: I was excited to see it because I was a
• 7:30
  Speaker 5: big fan of the director, Ty West. I had. I
• 7:33
  Speaker 5: had loved The Wrist, trigger Man and House of the Devil,
• 7:38
  Speaker 5: you know, and I was excited to see.
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: I haven't liked most of his movies, which.
• 7:44
  Speaker 5: Is that's that's fine, he's you know, you, well, he's
• 7:49
  Speaker 5: part of that group. You know, he's part of that
• 7:52
  Speaker 5: that mumblecore adjacent horror group, the mumble Goore movement. But
• 7:58
  Speaker 5: he is, like definitely because he's friend with you know,
• 8:00
  Speaker 5: Joe Swanberg and A J. Bowen and all those people
• 8:03
  Speaker 5: that are in this movie are part of the whole
• 8:06
  Speaker 5: mumble core thing and he you know, it's an acchoir
• 8:09
  Speaker 5: taste for sure.
• 8:11
  Speaker 4: I think like mumblecore. Yeah, see that mumble gore for
• 8:15
  Speaker 4: a mumble that's a new one. I've not heard that before.
• 8:19
  Speaker 4: We're all learning.
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: I have not heard that either, but I get it.
• 8:22
  Speaker 6: It makes Yeah, it's sallow your own blog.
• 8:36
  Speaker 4: I can't. Does anyone not love to say with preppers?
• 8:41
  Speaker 5: Yeah, it's I mean, it's it's fun to say that.
• 8:44
  Speaker 5: Is is like the top. I mean because anybody can
• 8:48
  Speaker 5: It's not like a walk in or you know, anybody
• 8:52
  Speaker 5: can do the Ted Levine from Silence of the word.
• 8:54
  Speaker 4: Is he is he a pioneer in Mumblegore?
• 8:57
  Speaker 3: Ty West? It is Ty West?
• 9:02
  Speaker 5: Is He's part of the you know, Simon Simon, Barrett,
• 9:05
  Speaker 5: Adam Wininguard swan Berg, J. Bow Bowen, the Duplas Brothers
• 9:11
  Speaker 5: like they they all kind of are you know, we're
• 9:14
  Speaker 5: a scene.
• 9:15
  Speaker 3: They were like a movie kind of a deal.
• 9:17
  Speaker 5: Yeah, so it's an acquired taste, not you don't have
• 9:21
  Speaker 5: to like it.
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, this is a it's a found footage movie, which
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: I still like found footage movies. Fucking Relax. Everybody currently
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: holds a sixty three percent on Rotten Tomatoes among critics,
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: but only forty seven percent among audiences. It seems like
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: people found this movie to be a little slow.
• 9:43
  Speaker 4: That surprised me. I thought it would be the reverse. Yeah,
• 9:45
  Speaker 4: with the stats, I don't like this where price is
• 9:48
  Speaker 4: right and they were like, Laura, what is the price?
• 9:50
  Speaker 4: What is the review?
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: I would suck it up, yeah, because they really launch
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: into the tension kind of right away.
• 9:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but I think I don't know they do.
• 10:01
  Speaker 5: But there's also like this, they hint at a reveal
• 10:04
  Speaker 5: the entire time, and there isn't really a payoff outside
• 10:08
  Speaker 5: of you know, the the Jonestown thing. Yeah, you know,
• 10:11
  Speaker 5: like it's it. I feel like a lot of people
• 10:13
  Speaker 5: were kind of disappointed with it.
• 10:15
  Speaker 3: My self, oclad.
• 10:15
  Speaker 5: I was one of those ones that one of those
• 10:17
  Speaker 5: people that was disappointed with it when I saw it
• 10:19
  Speaker 5: because I was expecting something more, something different.
• 10:22
  Speaker 3: Maybe I don't know this.
• 10:23
  Speaker 5: He came off the Innkeepers doing this, and you just
• 10:27
  Speaker 5: I kept hoping for some kind of supernatural.
• 10:29
  Speaker 3: Reveal or something, So I don't.
• 10:31
  Speaker 5: I mean, it's a well done film, I'm not I
• 10:33
  Speaker 5: need to. I actually need to revisit it now that
• 10:35
  Speaker 5: we're talking about it.
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: I think a movie like this is the kind of
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: thing that's never gonna make everyone happy. And it reminds
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: me of a movie we talked about on a recent
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: episode called Colonia, which is it stars Emma Watson, and
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: it's also based on very real events. There was this
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: Nazi compound in Chile after World War Two that was
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: basically a pedophile cult that also doubled as a torture
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: center for the Pinochet regime. And this movie Colonia is
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: about all of that, and they they pretty much hit
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: all the facts correctly, but they like put a story
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: behind it like that didn't actually happen, And all the
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: reviews are like, you're being really trivial with this and
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: like acting like they were disrespecting the subject matter by
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: making it like basically an escape movie sort of. And meanwhile,
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: it's a place that only four people escaped from the
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: entire like all the decades it was open, and with
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: this movie, I feel like the same thing would have happened.
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: If there would have been some supernatural twist at the end,
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: people would have been mad that he was kind of
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: playing with the facts around what happened at Jonestown when
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: it's already horrifying enough.
• 11:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean yeah.
• 11:56
  Speaker 5: I also think that like the cult scenario thing though,
• 12:00
  Speaker 5: is a little broader, Like this is very specifically Jonestown
• 12:04
  Speaker 5: for sure, But you know, this movie also came after
• 12:08
  Speaker 5: I believe VHS two, which had a kind of Jonestown
• 12:11
  Speaker 5: cult segment in it, and there's already there had been
• 12:15
  Speaker 5: like other horror movies kind of rolling with this, the
• 12:18
  Speaker 5: Jonestown esque cult story that I think it, I mean,
• 12:21
  Speaker 5: I can definitely see that because I don't know, if
• 12:23
  Speaker 5: you know about the film that came out a couple
• 12:24
  Speaker 5: of years ago, Haunting of Sharon Tate. You're having Dan
• 12:29
  Speaker 5: Farrens who like, so it's it's it's like a supernatural
• 12:34
  Speaker 5: cult horror story or exploitation cult horse. I haven't seen it,
• 12:38
  Speaker 5: but it's got a lot of flack because you know,
• 12:41
  Speaker 5: it's about the Manson family and it's about Sharon Tate
• 12:44
  Speaker 5: and they're using like full on proper nouns even in
• 12:47
  Speaker 5: the title, so it's like you're gonna get that attention
• 12:50
  Speaker 5: if you're trying to like because that is disrespectful for sure.
• 12:53
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, look out living family members and whatever it is.
• 12:55
  Speaker 4: It's yeah. I mean, I wonder how many people watch
• 13:00
  Speaker 4: this and absolutely didn't know anything about Jonestown and we're
• 13:03
  Speaker 4: just like, this is a movie about a scary Colt.
• 13:05
  Speaker 4: Do you want to see a horrible You've got a
• 13:07
  Speaker 4: scary Coult And they're like, yeah, I mean, I just
• 13:09
  Speaker 4: wonder if it's is it more enjoyable if you've never
• 13:12
  Speaker 4: heard of Jonestown before, or is it less enjoyable if
• 13:15
  Speaker 4: you have that in your mind? Is frame of reference?
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: I don't know. See, I've been, like I said, I've
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: been researching Jonestown for about six weeks now, and that
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: actually made this movie way more enjoyable for me, because
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: if you if you know a whole lot about Jonestown,
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: you pick up every reference to Jonestown in this movie.
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: And this movie is a beat for beat recreation of
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: when Leo Ryan went to Jonestown and got assassinated. It's
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: just they tweak like who's going and why, but the
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: sequence of events and we'll we'll go through it. It's
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: it's pretty spot on for how that visit to Jonestown
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: went and how it ended. A lot of the characters
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: are references to people that were at Jonestown, and it's
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: really a kind of a faithful recreation in that way.
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: But it just leaves out all the CIA stuff, which
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: most accounts of Jonestown leave out, which is insane because
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: if you like, mk ultra was a thing, and there's
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: a lot of evidence that points to Jonestown just being
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: an extension of that because once mk ultra was found out,
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: they couldn't keep doing it at hospitals and colleges, so
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: you move it to fucking cults and communes where no
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: one's watching exactly.
• 14:39
  Speaker 4: I concur and like, I don't know, I think, but
• 14:43
  Speaker 4: to me it was like taking it and putting it in
• 14:45
  Speaker 4: this modern timeframe. It did sort of put me off
• 14:48
  Speaker 4: a bit to have it as be as impactful because
• 14:51
  Speaker 4: like I mean, we'll talk, we can talk about this later,
• 14:53
  Speaker 4: but you know, it's like in the seventies there was
• 14:55
  Speaker 4: a lot more I think in sense of impending doom
• 14:57
  Speaker 4: and the culture of violence round it, specifically with leaders
• 15:02
  Speaker 4: like he mentioned I will tell you later, but MLKA
• 15:05
  Speaker 4: and all these other leaders. But I'm like, there's something
• 15:06
  Speaker 4: about said in the seventies where it's like, I don't know,
• 15:09
  Speaker 4: it doesn't have the same amount of weight to do
• 15:11
  Speaker 4: it now. But we'll get it to the later. Sorry,
• 15:13
  Speaker 4: But yeah, I almost wish it was in the seventies instead.
• 15:17
  Speaker 4: That's just my criticism. But anyway, then we wouldn't have
• 15:21
  Speaker 4: this awesome opening music.
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the opening music. I used Shazam for the first
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: time in my entire life because I've heard the song
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: that plays over the opening credits so many times and
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: I love it. And I've never known who sings it
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: or what it's called. And it's called heart Beats by
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: the Knife.
• 15:40
  Speaker 5: People forget about the Knife.
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: Good Dan.
• 15:43
  Speaker 4: Yeah, they're really good. I liked it. The thing was
• 15:46
  Speaker 4: that I did feel was appropriate because it's like a
• 15:48
  Speaker 4: vice crew, and I thought that was fitting. But I
• 15:52
  Speaker 4: really dislike these guys's characters. I'm not interested in any
• 15:55
  Speaker 4: of them. I don't like that. I don't like making
• 15:58
  Speaker 4: advice makes it seem obnoxious. And I'm also like, I'm
• 16:00
  Speaker 4: also judging it, but today's guys really seem like Vice report.
• 16:04
  Speaker 4: I don't know, and then everything I say, everything they say,
• 16:07
  Speaker 4: I'm like, is that a thing a Vice reporter would say?
• 16:09
  Speaker 4: I'm like, I don't know.
• 16:11
  Speaker 5: That's often I think that the people the hang up
• 16:14
  Speaker 5: that most people have with a lot of mumblegore stuff
• 16:17
  Speaker 5: is that the characters are you know, they're like that,
• 16:21
  Speaker 5: you know, mid mid odds to early twenty ten's hipster,
• 16:26
  Speaker 5: douchebag type guys, like you know, they're that, they're Vice
• 16:30
  Speaker 5: reporter type people. They're like and it's it's always supposed
• 16:33
  Speaker 5: to be kind of a send up of them, but
• 16:36
  Speaker 5: it's also sort of like, yeah, I feel like these
• 16:38
  Speaker 5: dudes are really like this, like these these people in
• 16:40
  Speaker 5: this scene, and I think that turns a lot of
• 16:42
  Speaker 5: people off, and I feel like that also kind of
• 16:46
  Speaker 5: maybe it hasn't aged so well because it's fucking Vice.
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: One thing I thought say it seemed Vice enough. Yeah,
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: I appreciated that it was Vice because I have such
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: a connection to the idea that the CIA was involved
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: in Jonestown, and I've always kind of thought Vice was
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: a wing of the CIA, Like, yeah, they get access
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: to places people should not fucking get access to without
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: CIA help. And also who calls having fun vice except cops.
• 17:16
  Speaker 4: It's true, It's very true. I was. I was like,
• 17:19
  Speaker 4: I was like, I don't think they sound enough like
• 17:21
  Speaker 4: vice reporters. I thought they sounded too bland to milk pokes,
• 17:24
  Speaker 4: like to regular they sounded so much like regular reporters.
• 17:26
  Speaker 4: And then I was like, but then I'm like, oh,
• 17:28
  Speaker 4: if they sounded too much like vice reporters, you would
• 17:30
  Speaker 4: say they're doing a satire advice or they're making fun
• 17:33
  Speaker 4: of it.
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and then Vice probably wouldn't want to be involved.
• 17:36
  Speaker 4: Well, it would just it would seem silly, like a
• 17:38
  Speaker 4: silly sat But then I was just like these guys,
• 17:41
  Speaker 4: I don't know, Like all of their sort of in
• 17:43
  Speaker 4: things didn't make sense to me, didn't really fit. They're
• 17:45
  Speaker 4: like Luca Ben's shoes, they look stupid, Ben from New York.
• 17:48
  Speaker 4: Can't you get a pair of hiking boots or something?
• 17:49
  Speaker 4: I was like, what the fuck is the what?
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, jokes were bad, I don't know all of.
• 17:55
  Speaker 5: Sometimes to those, well, yeah, we need the little we
• 17:59
  Speaker 5: need the little slight quotidian and actual dialogue, and then
• 18:02
  Speaker 5: you know it needs to feel real and then you
• 18:05
  Speaker 5: get these people that don't know what real is sometimes.
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: But speaking of that, one thing I saw pointed out
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: that I do think makes a little sense is framing
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: it around it being a Vice documentary kind of fixes
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: one of those questions people have about found footage movies sometimes,
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: which is, well, if this was just a person carrying
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: a fucking camera around, why does it look so good?
• 18:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: And if they're there to film a Vice documentary, that
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: it at least answers that question of why does this
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: look like a professional production?
• 18:36
  Speaker 5: That's always That's always a good narrative fix in found
• 18:41
  Speaker 5: footage is when it's like, oh, they are a professional
• 18:43
  Speaker 5: camera crew shooting something else.
• 18:45
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, Mine is always like time traveling aliens. They
• 18:48
  Speaker 4: have better cameras than us, So you know, that's why
• 18:52
  Speaker 4: it looks so good. Filters just say filters can't. Why
• 18:55
  Speaker 4: do people need to be so judging?
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: I did like that they they really blow through the
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: setup in the beginning pretty fast, and I appreciated that.
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: I thought that looked like that's how I assume Vice
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: would set up a situation like this, like three guys
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: I hate pretending to be more scared than they are,
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: but this whole setup.
• 19:14
  Speaker 4: Like it's interesting because we talk about it, which is
• 19:16
  Speaker 4: this guy Patrick as a photographer. He gets a letter
• 19:18
  Speaker 4: from his junkie like his ex junkie sister, and she's like, so,
• 19:22
  Speaker 4: I'm living in this drug free community called Eden Parish,
• 19:25
  Speaker 4: and like, you know, that is kind of a situation
• 19:28
  Speaker 4: that did happen to a lot of people at Jonestown.
• 19:30
  Speaker 4: They would get letters from their family or whatever that
• 19:32
  Speaker 4: they were involved with the church after they've been at
• 19:34
  Speaker 4: drugs because it's the seventies and by that point, you know,
• 19:37
  Speaker 4: a lot of people were suffering the ill effects of
• 19:39
  Speaker 4: doing too much acid for years. You know, you're really
• 19:41
  Speaker 4: sorry to see that. But I was like, all right,
• 19:43
  Speaker 4: this is I'm like, that checks out to me. That
• 19:45
  Speaker 4: sounds like very jon stajesh I believe it. Okay, cool,
• 19:48
  Speaker 4: Eden Parish isn't goofy sounding. It sounds realistic, you know,
• 19:53
  Speaker 4: and it's a remote part of the world. I don't
• 19:55
  Speaker 4: know why they specifically chose that, but okay.
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: Well, because they're not making specific references to Jonestown, but
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: Jonestown was in a remote part of the world.
• 20:03
  Speaker 4: Oh yeah, But they don't just say like not America
• 20:06
  Speaker 4: or Central America or yeah, I wonder.
• 20:10
  Speaker 5: If that was a legal peninsula Michigan.
• 20:13
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, your mom's house, whatever, you.
• 20:16
  Speaker 5: Know, outside of Omaha Breast.
• 20:20
  Speaker 4: I wanted. I wanted the longitude and latitude at that place.
• 20:24
  Speaker 4: I wanted the GPS coordinator.
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: I wonder if that was a legal thing. Like you
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: probably have to pay for the rights to make a
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: Jonestown movie.
• 20:34
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I don't.
• 20:35
  Speaker 3: Know, it's hard to Like That's the thing. I was
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: talking about this with someone.
• 20:38
  Speaker 5: Neative about the Amityville movies, Like Amityville is just the
• 20:42
  Speaker 5: proper nown name of a place, so like nobody owns that.
• 20:46
  Speaker 5: So that's why there are like twenty movies with the
• 20:48
  Speaker 5: word Amityville in the title that aren't related any any
• 20:50
  Speaker 5: way to each other. Is because you can just put
• 20:53
  Speaker 5: that name on there. So I imagine maybe you can just
• 20:56
  Speaker 5: put Jones to although but they didn't, Yeah, yeah they didn't.
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: Because I feel like this movie.
• 21:02
  Speaker 5: Was somebody's name, like it's it's it's the name of
• 21:04
  Speaker 5: a place, but it's the because of the guy.
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: And may talk about at least I've seen it mentioned
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: that this is ty West's most mainstream movie, and I
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: kind of agree. With that, and I think it would
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: have been more mainstream if it was just called Jonestown.
• 21:20
  Speaker 5: I think that's the other thing about the reception of
• 21:23
  Speaker 5: it is that you so you texted me saying that
• 21:26
  Speaker 5: you thought it was underrated.
• 21:27
  Speaker 3: And I'm like, I think it's rated about where it
• 21:29
  Speaker 3: deserves to.
• 21:29
  Speaker 5: Be because because I feel like, you know, there are,
• 21:33
  Speaker 5: there are. The reception is mixed. It's very mixed. It's
• 21:36
  Speaker 5: that like some people that are you know, this is
• 21:39
  Speaker 5: ty West's you know, I don't want to say sellout,
• 21:42
  Speaker 5: but like it's his most mainstream movie. It's his most
• 21:45
  Speaker 5: unlike his previous films. And then there's but it's also
• 21:48
  Speaker 5: like not I think mainstream enough for a lot of
• 21:51
  Speaker 5: mainstream horror audiences who are looking for, like, you know,
• 21:56
  Speaker 5: something else.
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, and.
• 21:59
  Speaker 5: And they get they get, you know, this mumblegore stuff
• 22:02
  Speaker 5: that's honestly, in a lot of ways pretty quiet. I
• 22:07
  Speaker 5: don't want to say slow, but it's like deliberately paced.
• 22:09
  Speaker 5: It does get into the tension right away, but it
• 22:12
  Speaker 5: doesn't do a lot of paying off.
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: Things until the end.
• 22:15
  Speaker 5: And so I think that's an issue with people's reception
• 22:19
  Speaker 5: of it too.
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: And see that's the thing. I think that's a product
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: of how faithful he's being to the sequence of events
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: at Jonestown, because what happens when they first get there
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: is what happened with Leo Ryan, in that the people
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: at Jonestown were going way out of their way to
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: make it seem like everything was perfect and normal. And
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: like in this movie, there's that scene where they have
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: like the big party with the music, and that all happened.
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: It was probably the only time the people at Jonestown
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: ate regular food. And even the part where he starts
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: to like come around and is feeling like, oh, maybe
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: this is okay, maybe it's fine.
• 23:00
  Speaker 3: Maybe yeah.
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: Like during during that visit to Jonestown when they put
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: on that presentation at the end, Leo Ryan got on
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: stage and was like, you know, this looks perfectly normal
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: to me, Like it seems like everything's fine. Like they
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: almost got away with convincing. Leo Ryan, a guy who,
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: if you look into his background, went undercover in San
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: Quentin as a prisoner to investigate reports of corruption by
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: the guards, Like didn't tell anyone he was a congressman,
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: just went to San Quentin for two weeks. Like this
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: dude went and did ship, and like if they could have,
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: if they could have convinced him that everything was fine
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: at Jonestown, that ship would probably still be running. Yea
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: is still running. It's a hotel now Starbucks in Jonestown.
• 23:59
  Speaker 4: Well, I mean, yeah, there are still the what is
• 24:02
  Speaker 4: it on that called? They're still around in Australia in
• 24:05
  Speaker 4: the desert, don't they.
• 24:06
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean there are all to hockey team won
• 24:08
  Speaker 5: the Stanley Cup last year.
• 24:10
  Speaker 4: Yeah, they run anti ence pretzels. Now they are all
• 24:12
  Speaker 4: those moll stands and no, it sounds ridiculous, but I
• 24:17
  Speaker 4: mean it is a situation where they had like a
• 24:20
  Speaker 4: congressman who is the smartest stute guy come and check
• 24:22
  Speaker 4: them out and whatever, and it turned out to be fine.
• 24:25
  Speaker 4: I don't know. I mean, we don't what we're missing
• 24:28
  Speaker 4: out because it's not you know, you know, strict historical
• 24:32
  Speaker 4: timeline is I don't know. I think there would be
• 24:34
  Speaker 4: more sense of danger because Jonestown had to move different
• 24:36
  Speaker 4: locations and stuff like that previous to that. We don't
• 24:39
  Speaker 4: really hear that in this film. We don't hear like, oh, yeah,
• 24:42
  Speaker 4: we were living here and then we moved here, and
• 24:44
  Speaker 4: then now we're here in the woods. Now, I don't know,
• 24:47
  Speaker 4: it's a little isolated to just that visit, so we
• 24:51
  Speaker 4: don't get much backstory of anyone, doesn't they don't fill
• 24:54
  Speaker 4: that in or how long they've been members or yeah, changes,
• 24:57
  Speaker 4: you know, you see anything. Al So, I mean it's
• 24:59
  Speaker 4: a little fit on that plot, but that's fine.
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think he's relying on people to know all
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: that other stuff and that I mean, that could be
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: why it's not called jonestown. I don't know.
• 25:10
  Speaker 5: Yeah, well I think that that's again, like it's one
• 25:13
  Speaker 5: of those things where if you want to make it
• 25:16
  Speaker 5: more specific without doing like a straight horror thing with it,
• 25:21
  Speaker 5: you kind of can't call it jonestown. Yeah, like you
• 25:25
  Speaker 5: kind of like it's that weird thing where you can
• 25:28
  Speaker 5: get right up to the you know, specific details, but
• 25:31
  Speaker 5: you can't go all the way with it.
• 25:33
  Speaker 4: I don't know. I was missing out on the beatings.
• 25:35
  Speaker 4: I wanted to see some beatings, like see them happen.
• 25:38
  Speaker 4: That would have been scary.
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: Have you ever heard the audio of Jim Jones overseeing
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: those beatings? Fucking laugh? Oh it's terrifying.
• 25:50
  Speaker 4: And then you laugh.
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: I did it. I did it. Yeah, I went ahead
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: and did the laugh also.
• 25:56
  Speaker 4: I'm like, oh no, I'm terrified.
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: I've been I want to do a Jones again.
• 26:02
  Speaker 4: I was just thinking of making Jim Jones doll where
• 26:06
  Speaker 4: you have the pull string and.
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: What a monster.
• 26:12
  Speaker 3: I can't sleep without.
• 26:13
  Speaker 4: It, exactly, Lord almighty.
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: One thing they do get very wrong in this movie
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: is they pretend like Jonestown was an integrated place. That's
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: one of the images I think we still put out
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: about Jonestown is that. Listen, this guy was all about
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: social justice in moving black people forward. Jim Jones was
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: a fucking racist. He was a super duper racist. He
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: was a con man. When he got people to Jonestown,
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: the white people were in charge. They're the ones who
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: got to send letters home so they could form the
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: official narrative of what they wanted people to think was happening.
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: And meanwhile, when black people got there, they were handcuffed,
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: gag and basically forced into slavery.
• 27:03
  Speaker 4: Well, I gotta ask you, is it ethical? Is it
• 27:05
  Speaker 4: racially just to take all of the social security checks
• 27:08
  Speaker 4: of a bunch of elderly black people? Is that Does
• 27:11
  Speaker 4: that make you a hero? I don't think so. Yeah,
• 27:13
  Speaker 4: it's even without that, just to me that he took
• 27:16
  Speaker 4: all of the finances of a group of like, you know,
• 27:19
  Speaker 4: very vulnerable elderly people who are not of a different
• 27:23
  Speaker 4: race than him as a white man. Just oh took
• 27:25
  Speaker 4: I took all the life savings a bunch of old
• 27:27
  Speaker 4: black people. I'm like, that doesn't sound correct either.
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: That's the other problem with a Jonestown movie is everyone
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: wants to focus on what happened at the end, but
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: everything leading up to what happened in Guyana is very suspicious.
• 27:43
  Speaker 4: And yeah, I mean you make the point. Sorry, I
• 27:45
  Speaker 4: was really quickly I say that. That was what I
• 27:47
  Speaker 4: was saying is Jim Jones did many horrific things before
• 27:50
  Speaker 4: they even got there into that suicide. The beatings, the manipulation,
• 27:53
  Speaker 4: the financial stuff, the labor exploitation, sleeping with people in
• 27:57
  Speaker 4: the church, and you know, beating the shut up so scary.
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: Even the way they got those checks from, because it's
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: not just senior citizens. What happened is at one point
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: Jim Jones managed to get himself appointed to a job
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: in San Francisco that allowed him to hire people to
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: work in California welfare offices. And what he did is
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: put a bunch of people's temple members working in these
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: welfare offices, and they were the recruiters. He didn't go
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: out into the community and try to recruit people. He
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: had a very specific target and demographic and it was
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: poor black people. And they used California welfare offices to
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: one recruit members and then they would get them on
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: welfare and go, well, we're going to give you this
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: opportunity to live basically rent free. So you just signed
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: that over to us. And they made something like twenty
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: grand a month just on that. They also had I
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: think one hundred and fifty or so kids that were
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: wards of the state in California, and California just gave
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: them those kids to take over as legal guardians and
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: they moved most of those kids to Guyana. Crazy.
• 29:12
  Speaker 5: Well, that's and that's I think another another reason why
• 29:16
  Speaker 5: one why they can't call it Jones, not like why
• 29:18
  Speaker 5: they can't use the name Jonestown, because then it have
• 29:21
  Speaker 5: to be they'd have to they'd have to have those
• 29:23
  Speaker 5: things in the.
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: Movie should be a franchise, and you can't have that.
• 29:28
  Speaker 3: Oh man, Jim Jones, Jim Jones in a red and
• 29:31
  Speaker 3: green sweater coming.
• 29:35
  Speaker 4: Exactly.
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 29:36
  Speaker 5: Uh, there's which Actually there is kind of a movie
• 29:38
  Speaker 5: like that called Bad Dreams, which is which was an
• 29:42
  Speaker 5: eighties attempt at doing like a Freddy Krueger knockoff style
• 29:46
  Speaker 5: horror movie with Richard.
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: God no, I can't.
• 29:54
  Speaker 3: I can't believe, like.
• 29:57
  Speaker 5: From from the old Battlestar Galactic GA. Anyway, he plays
• 30:01
  Speaker 5: this cult later and it's kind of like a Jim
• 30:03
  Speaker 5: Jones meets Freddy Krueger thing.
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: H Richard Battlestar I think.
• 30:07
  Speaker 5: Anyway, Yeah, that's it his Richard.
• 30:10
  Speaker 4: We'll review that next.
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah. No, it's very realistic. But I think that's the
• 30:17
  Speaker 3: other thing is that if you want the movie to be.
• 30:19
  Speaker 5: Like a thriller, you have to have like a reveal
• 30:22
  Speaker 5: and like there has to be that moment where this
• 30:25
  Speaker 5: guy where Patrick is coming around to it, you know, yeah,
• 30:29
  Speaker 5: and that's not gonna happen if some of these things
• 30:31
  Speaker 5: are going on, Like if Patrick comes there and like
• 30:32
  Speaker 5: the first thing they see is like active racial segregation
• 30:36
  Speaker 5: going on, and then like his sister's like, oh yeah,
• 30:38
  Speaker 5: there's slaves basically, and then like there's no chance for
• 30:42
  Speaker 5: Patrick to come around and be like maybe they're right,
• 30:44
  Speaker 5: Like no, like, oh shit, there's there's slavery and beatings
• 30:48
  Speaker 5: and we got to go.
• 30:50
  Speaker 4: Yeah, if the guy was like, oh, I left my
• 30:52
  Speaker 4: camera and it recorded this thing that I didn't mean
• 30:54
  Speaker 4: it to record something, we see someone getting beat up.
• 30:58
  Speaker 4: But I guess there's some dread where you're like, oh,
• 31:01
  Speaker 4: I hope this guy gets his sister out of here,
• 31:03
  Speaker 4: but I'm pretty much thinking he's not going to get
• 31:06
  Speaker 4: his sister at it. I'm never like really being like, oh,
• 31:09
  Speaker 4: I bet everyone's gonna escape and they'll all be fine.
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, most people did get out of Jonestown. And if
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: you I'm telling you, if you look into some of
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: those survivors, especially Deborah Layton, who we're going to talk
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: about later, Deborah Layton was like Jim Jones' right hand
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: and then at the last minute she defected and was like,
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: oh my god, I'm such a victim. It's like, no,
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: you did it, You fucking did it.
• 31:36
  Speaker 4: Yeah, betting. But yeah, So they do show a lot
• 31:39
  Speaker 4: of kids around, a lot of black kids, a lot
• 31:41
  Speaker 4: of some white kids, and yeah, there were a lot
• 31:44
  Speaker 4: of people at people who got into Jonestown were of
• 31:46
  Speaker 4: child buried age. A lot of them had their kids
• 31:48
  Speaker 4: which they brought with them and traveled with the cult.
• 31:51
  Speaker 4: And I do. And then Jim Jones had several kids too.
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: He adopted a bunch of kids to to make his
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: message seem authentic.
• 32:00
  Speaker 4: Yeah, he adopted the non white kids to make it
• 32:02
  Speaker 4: seem like he was the real deal. And I think
• 32:04
  Speaker 4: some of his kids survived.
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, some of them are stored.
• 32:07
  Speaker 4: They weren't. They weren't around. They weren't, they weren't.
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: On the site. I love that he has a natural
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: born son named Stephen and an adopted black son named
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: Jim Jones Junior face Stephen. I know you, Steve, but
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: what did you think of the actor who played Jim Jones.
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: I thought he was fucking.
• 32:29
  Speaker 3: He's incredible, and he's like the best thing in the movie.
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: His name is Jeane Jones. Fantastic.
• 32:36
  Speaker 3: Well, it's a little bit much of a career outside
• 32:38
  Speaker 3: of this.
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he's the he's the guy in the coin toss
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: scene in No Country for Old Men.
• 32:45
  Speaker 4: I'm glad, I'm really glad you were recorded. You included that.
• 32:48
  Speaker 4: I was like, oh, yes, he is. But there is
• 32:51
  Speaker 4: a bit of a difference where I find that I
• 32:53
  Speaker 4: love his performance. I think his performance is stellar. It's
• 32:55
  Speaker 4: really spell bind me. But I do feel a little
• 32:58
  Speaker 4: bit for him because he does seem fragile, like physically,
• 33:01
  Speaker 4: he does seem like an old man who is weak.
• 33:05
  Speaker 4: And I know that Jim Jones was like suffering from
• 33:07
  Speaker 4: a lot of effects of drugs and drug addiction whatever,
• 33:10
  Speaker 4: But Jim Jones to me is like a scary kind
• 33:13
  Speaker 4: of serpentine sweating man who seems like he could beat
• 33:18
  Speaker 4: the fuck out of you. And I'm not as scared
• 33:20
  Speaker 4: of this guy.
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: Well that I think that's one of the things I
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: dislike about this movie. I actually read a quote from
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: Ty West, which I'm not going to quote verbatim, but
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: I will paraphrase it, where he basically said he wanted
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: to portray Jim Jones as someone who had good intentions
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: but was driven too bad by his paranoia. And I
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: think that's why this character comes off that way, and
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: that's so inaccurate. Jim Jones never had good intentions like
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: Zero was Hitler, Yeah, idalized Hitler, This was a genocide program.
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: That I didn't like that he wanted to portray Jim
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: Jones that way because that like, you don't even have
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: to dig into the CIA theory to know that Jim
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: Jones was not genuinely socially progressive.
• 34:10
  Speaker 4: Now, he was vain and disgusting and depraved and exploitative
• 34:15
  Speaker 4: and slimy and sleazy, and just like a nasty, gross
• 34:20
  Speaker 4: guy who is like living like high off the hog,
• 34:24
  Speaker 4: high out of his mind, rattled on all kinds of drugs,
• 34:26
  Speaker 4: you know. Yeah, and just generally a psychopath. He worshiped
• 34:30
  Speaker 4: Hitler and used to sell monkeys.
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: There's a what the fuck? There's a thing that happens
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: in the interview that is another nod to the actual
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: Jim Jones, which is do.
• 34:41
  Speaker 4: They take real dialogue from Jim Jones? Is there any
• 34:43
  Speaker 4: light is it?
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: No? I don't think it's not real dialogue. But there
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: are moments that are like, actually, none of the moments
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: are exactly as they happened. It's just the sequence of events.
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: Like the thing where when they're trying to leave and
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: someone pulls it knife on one of the journalists. That happened,
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: but it was one of the white temple members. It
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: wasn't a black security guard.
• 35:08
  Speaker 4: So Tyrest is racist, Yes, yes, absolutely good to.
• 35:13
  Speaker 3: I mean he's from Connecticut, right, so.
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: I can never really but the part where.
• 35:21
  Speaker 3: Delaware is from Delaware, the part.
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: Where they're interviewing father, which is what we haven't even mentioned.
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: That's what the Jim Jones character is called in this
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: It's just Father. The part where they're interviewing him and he,
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: out of the blue, mentions the interviewer's pregnant wife. That's
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: a thing people always said about Jim Jones was that
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: it seemed like the minute he started talking to you,
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: he knew everything about you.
• 35:46
  Speaker 4: It's the best scene in the movie, the scene where
• 35:47
  Speaker 4: they talked to father. Father really gets to shine and he,
• 35:50
  Speaker 4: without saying a lot of specifically HLS does really lay
• 35:53
  Speaker 4: out a case that you know, a reasonable person could
• 35:56
  Speaker 4: find very compelling. And I really give them credit, and
• 35:58
  Speaker 4: that scene alone is worse the movie. I think they
• 36:01
  Speaker 4: really make it very clear, like, you know, these guys
• 36:03
  Speaker 4: are journalists, and what a journalists do. They look for
• 36:05
  Speaker 4: the negative and they're only there to spin a story
• 36:09
  Speaker 4: and to make them look bad and exploit them and
• 36:11
  Speaker 4: mock them. And it's I mean, I can't say that
• 36:14
  Speaker 4: that's not what the media does to people.
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I can't.
• 36:17
  Speaker 4: I can't be like, no, you're you're totally incorrect. That
• 36:20
  Speaker 4: never happens. It's like, well, yes, that is fairly true.
• 36:24
  Speaker 4: And does Vice make fun of the people that it
• 36:26
  Speaker 4: covers today To an extent, it leaves the door open
• 36:30
  Speaker 4: for them to look foolish, you know. And it's not
• 36:32
  Speaker 4: that it doesn't want people to look foolish, to a degree,
• 36:35
  Speaker 4: it's focusing on them because it does want to focus
• 36:38
  Speaker 4: on people who are foolish. I don't know.
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: They sure interview a lot of conspiracy theorists. Nothing weird
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: about that.
• 36:44
  Speaker 4: No, they really want to make those people look silly.
• 36:48
  Speaker 4: Why would be anyone have a problem with that?
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: Vice is the government, so they have the whole truth.
• 36:54
  Speaker 4: I can't I can't say.
• 36:55
  Speaker 5: No.
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: I thought the whole interview scene, like the him walking
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: in the interview, the fucking party afterwards, I thought all
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: of that was great. I thought that was very entertaining.
• 37:06
  Speaker 4: Yeah, up to that point I had been like, this
• 37:08
  Speaker 4: is kind of trash. I'm just waiting to get to
• 37:10
  Speaker 4: some you know, drinkie. But that was good. I was
• 37:14
  Speaker 4: happy with that.
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: I was like, they the part where it gets like
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: all of that actually happened and they do kind of
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: recreate what happened that caused all the chaos at Jonestown,
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: which is someone walked up and handed a reporter a
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: note that said we want to leave. Like up to
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: that point, Leo'ryan's whole delegation was like this is fine,
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: Like there's nothing happening here. And as depicted in the movie,
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: that's how it happened. One person handed them a note
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: and shit just went off the rails.
• 37:50
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and they were there even longer, correct, they.
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: Were there overnight. Well in the movie too, they end Sorry.
• 37:56
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I Leo Ryan was actually there for a much longer.
• 38:00
  Speaker 4: It wasn't like where we see where they're kind of
• 38:01
  Speaker 4: duped in a couple hours. If you imagine that deception
• 38:04
  Speaker 4: played out over even more days, so even weirder.
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 38:08
  Speaker 4: Probably.
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And this is the point where I realized the
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: sister her name's Caroline, I believe Caroline. Yeah, Her and
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: her brother are based on a family that was very
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: involved in Jonestown called the Layton family. And I think
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: the sister is supposed to be Deborah Layton. Who is
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: She was like, had this like troubled background. Her family
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: sent her to a boarding school in England to straighten
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: her out. She meets a guy named Phil Blakey there
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: they moved back to the United States. He ends up
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: building Jonestown and she ends up being like the CFO
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: of Jonestown. She handled all the money and then she's
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: the one who defected at the last second.
• 38:56
  Speaker 3: The miscivages of Jonestown.
• 38:58
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, they kind of are and it is.
• 39:01
  Speaker 4: So this was another point where it's like, it's good
• 39:03
  Speaker 4: to have that context. In the nineteen sixties nineteen seventies,
• 39:06
  Speaker 4: we're used to kind of ridiculing, you know, Trustafarians and
• 39:09
  Speaker 4: all that, but it was really that kind of phenomenon
• 39:11
  Speaker 4: in the sixties seventies where it was things like teen runaways, drugs,
• 39:15
  Speaker 4: the anti war movement. People only really got involved because
• 39:17
  Speaker 4: rich kids started getting involved and they were like, oh
• 39:20
  Speaker 4: my god, people are doing acid because my daughter dropped
• 39:23
  Speaker 4: out a Radcliffe and so we need to pay attention
• 39:25
  Speaker 4: to this. So Colts only really got a bad rap
• 39:29
  Speaker 4: in the press the Moonies what have you Manson family
• 39:31
  Speaker 4: because they were involving upper middle class or very upper
• 39:35
  Speaker 4: class white kids.
• 39:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Patty Hurst, yeah.
• 39:38
  Speaker 4: Paty Hearst, Yeah, yeah, great excepts so that Yeah, in
• 39:40
  Speaker 4: the seventies, this was a common story of these troubled
• 39:44
  Speaker 4: wealthy youth is gonna rye.
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: This family that he's referencing here. They're pretty much the
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: crux of the conspiracy theory around Jonestown because there's two
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: versions of the story. There is the publicly accepted verse version,
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: which is that a doctor named Thomas Late or no,
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: not Thomas. What the fuck is doctor Lynton? Doctor Layton.
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: We'll call him doctor Layton. I don't remember his first name,
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: but the except well, Tom is the oldest brother in Yeah.
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: And but the the version of the story that has
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: been told to the public is that this doctor Layton
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: lost his entire family to Jonestown, like all of his sons,
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: all of his daughters, his wife, his wife took all
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: his money and gave it to Jonestown. And that was
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: the story that came out immediately after Jonestown. But if
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: you look into that family's background, and I've i said
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: all this on another Jonestown episode, they're Nazis. Like doctor Layton,
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: he is one of the people who helped build the
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: atomic bomb, like he was on the Manhattan Project. He
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: worked for the CIA his entire fucking life. And then
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: this one weird, seemingly CIA involved thing that involves his
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: entire family he ends up in the middle of and
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: the theory is that he was actually the person in
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: charge of the Jonestown experiment, and that he was like
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: the medical science behind it, and Jim Jones was the
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: face of it.
• 41:21
  Speaker 4: And that the spiritual religious face, and.
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: They had to like, they couldn't just pump government money
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: into something like this, So it made for a convenient
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: cover story when he was like, yeah, my fucking wife
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: took everything, man, and all my kids who just happened
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: to be very skilled, and all the things we needed
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: them to do at Jonestown, they just all accidentally ended
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: up there too, and they all ended up running the place.
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: And then only one fucking person, you know, only one
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: person ever got charged for anything relating to Jonestown.
• 41:49
  Speaker 4: Who was a person?
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: No, it was Larry Layton, another member of the Layton films.
• 41:54
  Speaker 4: I just figured, if the American government's gonna arrest one
• 41:56
  Speaker 4: person for a crime, it's going to be a black person.
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: But now, because they could have hired lawyers who would
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: have looked into it more than the government wanted it
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: looked into. So yeah, the only person who has ever
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: charged was Larry Layton, another member of the Layton family.
• 42:11
  Speaker 4: What was he charged with?
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: He shot two of the defectors when they all tried
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: to flee, it.
• 42:17
  Speaker 4: Was like unlawful use of a firearm. Yeah, serving the
• 42:21
  Speaker 4: piece the piece.
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he's he's out.
• 42:26
  Speaker 4: It was a Sunday, so that uh, it wasn't even when.
• 42:31
  Speaker 3: He did that.
• 42:31
  Speaker 5: It was when he tried to buy beer.
• 42:36
  Speaker 4: He ran a red light, abating the scene coupled over.
• 42:40
  Speaker 4: Oh man, the guy. Yeah, actually the guy who bought
• 42:43
  Speaker 4: all the flavor he did it with an expired credit card,
• 42:46
  Speaker 4: a bad check. Damn that sucks. Yeah, so I'm gonna
• 42:51
  Speaker 4: look at into Layton's and kind of, yeah, I'm curious
• 42:53
  Speaker 4: about that.
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: It's very crazy. It's very crazy.
• 42:57
  Speaker 4: But we basically believe that patrick sister is like the
• 43:00
  Speaker 4: lead lady at this Eden Parrish, that she's sort of
• 43:04
  Speaker 4: like father's right hand woman.
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: Is that kind of seems that way? I mean, if
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: it's based on Deborah Layton, that was definitely the case.
• 43:12
  Speaker 4: But is she sleeping with Jim Jones?
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: Everyone was sleeping with Jim Jones. Okay, Jim Jones had
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: sex with men, women, boys, girls, fucking animals. If he
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: had to, like Jim Jones was a.
• 43:23
  Speaker 4: Why would he have to?
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: Because because Jim Jones was a dominator like he would
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: he would do whatever he needed to do to break
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: a person down.
• 43:33
  Speaker 4: And he got arrested. This sorry, this is off the topic,
• 43:36
  Speaker 4: but so in this movie, Father is not as licentious
• 43:40
  Speaker 4: as Jim Jones. But there's a there's an offhanded remark
• 43:43
  Speaker 4: that they believe. They're like, oh if this is the
• 43:46
  Speaker 4: sister fucking this guy. So we don't really get much
• 43:48
  Speaker 4: of that in terms of scary Father. I think it's
• 43:50
  Speaker 4: alluded to, but in not really an abusive, overarching sex
• 43:54
  Speaker 4: fiend sort of way.
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they leave a lot of the awful stuff about
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: Jim Jones out.
• 43:59
  Speaker 4: Yeah, Father does seem genuinely awful. He seems paranoid but
• 44:03
  Speaker 4: not horrible.
• 44:04
  Speaker 5: Yeah, okay, Yeah, he's still it's weird, like you know,
• 44:08
  Speaker 5: Jean Jean Jones's performance is still kind of like it's
• 44:11
  Speaker 5: a heavy performance, but it's not you know, like there
• 44:14
  Speaker 5: is there is menace to it. There's you can tell
• 44:17
  Speaker 5: it's he's dangerous, yeah, just through the way that Gene
• 44:21
  Speaker 5: Jones plays him, but it's not you know, I feel
• 44:24
  Speaker 5: like they can't have that performance. And again, like all
• 44:28
  Speaker 5: of this shit that Jim Jones really did well.
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: Also, if you think about what he's trying to depict here.
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: It's the le O'Ryan visit, and during most of that,
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: Jim Jones was on his best behavior because he was
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: trying to convince the American government that there was nothing
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: to worry about.
• 44:46
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, that he is putting
• 44:48
  Speaker 4: on a it's funny to think that like that is
• 44:51
  Speaker 4: his normal restraint. And I still think he seems yeah,
• 44:54
  Speaker 4: very I would know, intentionally provocative. Yeah, it's a provocative performance.
• 45:01
  Speaker 4: It provokes a lot of things, but basically, yeah, so
• 45:03
  Speaker 4: we get the deal. So this little girl gives the
• 45:06
  Speaker 4: dude Patrick the note that says like help, we want
• 45:08
  Speaker 4: to leave.
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and that that kind of sets off all the chaos.
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: And there's a lot of references in those final scenes
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: to stories that came out from various survivors. There's the
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: scene where a woman's holding her baby while they're injecting
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: poison into the baby's mouth. That is from one of
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: the lawyers at the People's temple. That was his account
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: when he got home. Was he during all of that,
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: looked over and his wife was just holding their baby
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: and pumping poison into his Yeah, that.
• 45:42
  Speaker 5: Gives credence to the CIA Nazi stuff like those. That's
• 45:46
  Speaker 5: that's CIA and Nazi shit right there. Putting poison in
• 45:49
  Speaker 5: a baby's mouth for sure.
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 45:51
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that lines up what we're seeing here before we
• 45:55
  Speaker 4: up into that is just if you know the timeline,
• 45:57
  Speaker 4: which is once they once they know that these people
• 46:00
  Speaker 4: are here, they feel like they're going to be exposed.
• 46:02
  Speaker 4: The cult says that we're gonna be ridiculed. The steps
• 46:04
  Speaker 4: that they believe they're going to take is We're gonna
• 46:06
  Speaker 4: be exposed in the press. We're going to be ridiculed,
• 46:09
  Speaker 4: the government will get involved, the government will come down
• 46:12
  Speaker 4: here and kill us, all right, so we need to
• 46:16
  Speaker 4: kill ourselves before this government intervention in genocide takes place, essentially.
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and that was kind of the company line around
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: Jonestown is that, well, we just killed this congressman. They're
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: never going to let us get away with that. We
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: got to kill ourselves.
• 46:31
  Speaker 3: You can't fire us, week Ques.
• 46:33
  Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly, exactly, Yeah, we can't fire us. We quick
• 46:35
  Speaker 4: so at this in this show, in this movie, it
• 46:38
  Speaker 4: is people want to leave and then the crew starting
• 46:42
  Speaker 4: to question what do you mean they can well they
• 46:44
  Speaker 4: can leave, or that question comes up, can they leave?
• 46:47
  Speaker 4: Can they not leave.
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they did a good job of depicting that moment
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: in Jonestown because that's all caught on video, like they
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: were they brought cameras with them when Leo Ryan did
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: the visit, and those moments where because in real life,
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: the person who hands that reporter of the note did
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: it like right before they were all getting ready to leave. Yeah,
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: and I do recall everything was normal up to that
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: point and then they get this note and this reporter
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: is like, all right, well now people are telling us
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: they want to leave, so what the fuck's going on?
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: And it just turns into chaos, And they did a
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: good job I think recreating that tension here.
• 47:29
  Speaker 5: That's another thing that I do. You know, it's Jeene
• 47:32
  Speaker 5: Jones is before Again, I don't dislike this movie. I
• 47:34
  Speaker 5: never disliked it. It just it never really gave me
• 47:37
  Speaker 5: what I wanted from a Ti West movie about this
• 47:41
  Speaker 5: kind of subject matter. But the chaos, the climactic sequences
• 47:47
  Speaker 5: is really really well handled and very very tense and
• 47:52
  Speaker 5: very chaotic, and it's it's it's ratcheting up and it
• 47:57
  Speaker 5: really is like it's a strong it's the strongest of
• 48:00
  Speaker 5: the film to me outside of the interview with Gene Jones.
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: With the father. Yeah, it did a good job showing
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: how much suffering was involved in those deaths, because I
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: think people just assume, well, they just drank the poison
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: and passed out and died.
• 48:15
  Speaker 5: Man.
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: No, that it was convulsions and foaming at the mouth
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: and a lot of pain.
• 48:21
  Speaker 5: One machine gun fire and stabbing and yeah.
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah. That's one of the more suspicious things about Jonestown
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: is the body count YEP, because when it first came out,
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: it was like three hundred something, and then it eventually
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: got to nine hundred. And the excuse has always been, well,
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: some of the bodies fell on top of each other,
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: So three hundred bodies fell on top of six hundred
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: bodies and covered them.
• 48:46
  Speaker 5: Yeah, these six hundred bodies because of the three hundred
• 48:50
  Speaker 5: bodies on top of them.
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, what's way more likely is hundreds of people tried
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: to flee and got rounded up and brought back and shot.
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 49:00
  Speaker 4: Yeah one day once they saw people falling.
• 49:02
  Speaker 5: Question, would you believe that the three hundred on top
• 49:05
  Speaker 5: of the six hundred were fatter?
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah?
• 49:10
  Speaker 3: Why didn't say them?
• 49:11
  Speaker 5: I'm just look, I'm just would you buy that? Would
• 49:13
  Speaker 5: you believe it, because if you would, I'll tell you that.
• 49:16
  Speaker 5: I'll just tell you that right now.
• 49:18
  Speaker 4: We didn't count kids at first because we just figured why.
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's the American government. They probably didn't count
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: black people.
• 49:26
  Speaker 4: We went by everyone's voting records.
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: That's the first body count was twenty four. And then
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: they were like, oh, you want us to count black
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: people too, Okay.
• 49:34
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, nine, I mean it did. I was genuinely, yeah,
• 49:37
  Speaker 4: I felt attention. It was a real horror when people
• 49:40
  Speaker 4: wanted to leave couldn't leave, even before the suicide started.
• 49:43
  Speaker 4: And then yeah, just from the point of having someone
• 49:46
  Speaker 4: be stabbed, I mean I felt that there was like
• 49:48
  Speaker 4: I'm like, someone's gonna get fucking stamped when I was
• 49:50
  Speaker 4: watching those people. But yeah, and then then you definitely
• 49:53
  Speaker 4: felt the real manipulation when he was like telling them,
• 49:55
  Speaker 4: kept yelling at them basically to drink the poison.
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, and that's all Yeah, this.
• 50:00
  Speaker 4: Is really Yeah, he's fucking manipulating them. He's not just
• 50:03
  Speaker 4: being like, hey, k you can commit suicide now, He's
• 50:06
  Speaker 4: he's telling them like they fucking have to do it.
• 50:08
  Speaker 4: There's no way out.
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: That's all from audio that came out from jonestown, Like
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: there's yeah, there's audio of that moment in him like
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: telling moms to not comfort their kids, and it's so
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: fucking creepy. Yeah, and they also there's the scene where
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: the mom who wanted to escape ends up killing her
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: own kid so they won't kill the kid. That's based
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: on a woman named Sharon Amos who the story is
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: she killed her kids first and then slit her own throat.
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: But it's also possible that, yes, she killed her kids
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: to keep them from being killed, but then someone slit
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: her through.
• 50:51
  Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, it's definitely. It doesn't shy away from showing
• 50:54
  Speaker 4: how disgusting it is and that people did force elderly
• 50:58
  Speaker 4: relatives and force each other to drink this poison and yeah,
• 51:03
  Speaker 4: and then there was guys with arm There was armed
• 51:05
  Speaker 4: cards everywhere.
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And the thing I mentioned at the beginning that
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: kind of tipped me off that ty West might have
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: been referencing the CIA thing a little bit is the
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: way the movie ends and the way they escape, which
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: is the guide who met them at the beginning just
• 51:23
  Speaker 1: out of the blue, shoots his other partner and it's like,
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: I'm burning this place to the ground, Get out. Of here. Yes,
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: why why are you burning it? Why are you burning
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: it to the ground? Why are you protecting these two
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: Americans by shooting your partner? It seems like that could
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: have been a reference to that. I don't know.
• 51:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it was Scott. Bacula had leapt into him. Yeah,
• 51:49
  Speaker 3: and al said that.
• 51:50
  Speaker 5: Ziggy said that what he had to do was burn
• 51:52
  Speaker 5: it all to the ground. Yeah, so that he could
• 51:54
  Speaker 5: leap into the next body.
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: I didn't even think of that.
• 51:58
  Speaker 3: Yes, I mean nobody ever does.
• 51:59
  Speaker 5: But I I guarantee, like most of the stuff that
• 52:02
  Speaker 5: we think, we don't have an answer for. That's it.
• 52:04
  Speaker 3: That's what it is. It's got Bacula leapt into their
• 52:07
  Speaker 3: body and had to do this, And.
• 52:08
  Speaker 5: Like who's to know, really why in the grand scheme
• 52:11
  Speaker 5: of things, that's Ziggy's call.
• 52:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, that's not my business to comment on.
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like I want to apologize for all
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: the spoilers in this. But it's a movie about Jonestown.
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: You know where it's.
• 52:21
  Speaker 4: Going and get it gets and you know what our heroes,
• 52:24
  Speaker 4: quote unquote, they see some gnarly shit, Like if you
• 52:28
  Speaker 4: like gnarley Asdets, there's a couple there's a few.
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that final scene is really well done.
• 52:35
  Speaker 5: It's that's the thing about it. It's so well done
• 52:39
  Speaker 5: in the end there, and it's so rough. It's so
• 52:43
  Speaker 5: rough and hard to watch at times. It's bleak, it's depressing,
• 52:47
  Speaker 5: it's upsetting.
• 52:48
  Speaker 3: And I think that's.
• 52:48
  Speaker 5: Another reason maybe why I wanted a supernatural thing or something,
• 52:53
  Speaker 5: you know what I mean, it's something occult because it
• 52:55
  Speaker 5: was just like, well, if it's just this bleak thing
• 52:58
  Speaker 5: of of people are going to be awful to each
• 53:00
  Speaker 5: other and and you know, horrifying violence. I already know that.
• 53:07
  Speaker 4: Yeah, well it's like watching a Domino's effect of violence
• 53:12
  Speaker 4: or like watching a mouse trap set off. Yeah, just
• 53:17
  Speaker 4: kind of like Pop's cap and up.
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: I think. I think what you're describing is Once upon
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: a Time in Hollywood, which I I fucking loved that movie.
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: And I loved it because of that ending, because you
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: spend whatever eight hours of that movie thinking you're gonna
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: see pregnant Sharon Tate get slaughtered at the end, and
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: you don't rip in good time at the end instead.
• 53:46
  Speaker 5: Good time still. But yeah, it is it is that.
• 53:50
  Speaker 1: It killed the Manson family. It was so much fun
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: to watch with the help of a good a doll.
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: It wasn't fun to watch about it. You wanted the
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: Manson family, No.
• 54:04
  Speaker 5: I didn't want that Manson family.
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: It sounds like you wanted the Manson family to kill
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: Sharon Tate and.
• 54:09
  Speaker 3: I absolutely did not.
• 54:11
  Speaker 5: There is something there is something very viscile or viscerally
• 54:13
  Speaker 5: satisfying and like cathartic about that inverted expectation at the
• 54:18
  Speaker 5: end where it's but there's something indulgent to me on
• 54:22
  Speaker 5: it on a level about it where it's like I
• 54:26
  Speaker 5: don't know if this is just the boomers whatever getting
• 54:29
  Speaker 5: revenge on the Manson family for stealing the sixties from them.
• 54:33
  Speaker 5: There's something to me about this that's just like I
• 54:36
  Speaker 5: don't think Quinn territory. I think he just wants to
• 54:39
  Speaker 5: do this to women. I think, like you know, it
• 54:42
  Speaker 5: just feels there's something icky to me about it, And
• 54:45
  Speaker 5: like I sat there in the theater and watched it
• 54:47
  Speaker 5: and cheered at the end too like everybody else, But
• 54:49
  Speaker 5: after like dwelling on it for a little bit, it's like,
• 54:51
  Speaker 5: I don't know, there's something about it doesn't sit right
• 54:53
  Speaker 5: with me.
• 54:53
  Speaker 4: It did feel like fuck these hippies, like they yeah, yeah, hippies.
• 54:58
  Speaker 3: Another thing.
• 54:58
  Speaker 5: That's the other thing.
• 54:59
  Speaker 3: That's the other thing.
• 55:00
  Speaker 5: Leonard Kapite's character would have voted for Donald Trump.
• 55:03
  Speaker 3: Well that's my other issue.
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: Well that's the thing. Most hippies voted for Donald Trump.
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: Like I am all for Fuck the hippies. Fuck the hippies.
• 55:12
  Speaker 1: They were what did they They didn't did they accomplish,
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: but you know, over they oversaw the stagnation of wages
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: in America once they entered the workforce. Thanks a fucking lot,
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: you dope smoking fiends.
• 55:27
  Speaker 4: Oh no, no, they're they're monsters. But at that time,
• 55:30
  Speaker 4: But at that time, were they monsters?
• 55:32
  Speaker 1: No, because the CIA them how to have fun. I also, I.
• 55:38
  Speaker 5: Mean not all boomers were hippies. That's the thing, and
• 55:41
  Speaker 5: and and vice versa. You know, like I I'm fine
• 55:45
  Speaker 5: with the hippies. I'm fine with the hippies. Like sure,
• 55:48
  Speaker 5: something turn out to be pieces of ship. But also
• 55:50
  Speaker 5: I'm not gonna say that once upon a time in
• 55:53
  Speaker 5: Hollywood feels like, you know, the what the hippies feel.
• 55:57
  Speaker 1: Like we're getting I feel like we're getting a little
• 55:58
  Speaker 1: off track.
• 56:01
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I was gonna say, what do you feel when father?
• 56:04
  Speaker 4: When father gets the acts at the end, are you like, oh, good,
• 56:07
  Speaker 4: the bad guy got it, because I'm I was.
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: I was like, show the part where the gun that
• 56:12
  Speaker 1: shot him was found fifty feet away from his head.
• 56:17
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I didn't think Jim Jones had the balls. Jones
• 56:21
  Speaker 4: he had the integrity to commit suicide. I didn't think
• 56:23
  Speaker 4: he had the I didn't think he had the I
• 56:26
  Speaker 4: don't know the ownership of his own doings.
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I feel the same way about Hitler.
• 56:30
  Speaker 1: But everyone wants to laugh it up when you suggest
• 56:32
  Speaker 1: he got out of Germany, like, yeah, I'm sure Hitler's
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: the only one who didn't escape.
• 56:37
  Speaker 4: He got in fucking Summarine.
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: He got on a fucking plane his private pilot. Oh,
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: I thought out of Germany. And she wrote a book
• 56:45
  Speaker 1: about it, and at the end was like you think
• 56:48
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna tell you I got Hitler out of Germany,
• 56:50
  Speaker 1: And that's how she ended the book, like Hitler got out,
• 56:53
  Speaker 1: But Jim Jones used body doubles. Also, there's a really
• 56:57
  Speaker 1: weird moment from his history where he was in Brazil.
• 57:03
  Speaker 5: He double ship is one of my favorite fucking things
• 57:07
  Speaker 5: that paranoid wealthy people do.
• 57:11
  Speaker 3: Others love body double ship.
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: The Hussein Yes, There's two very weird things about Jim
• 57:21
  Speaker 1: Jones and body doubles. One, when he was in Brazil
• 57:25
  Speaker 1: for a time, someone also was issued another passport under
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: Jim Jones identity and picked it up in the United States.
• 57:34
  Speaker 3: Jones is a pretty common last name.
• 57:36
  Speaker 1: Man, it was Jim, it was Jim Jones passport or
• 57:42
  Speaker 1: was it Mike Jones?
• 57:43
  Speaker 5: And it was Jesus Jones?
• 57:47
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 57:47
  Speaker 5: He also, now you're gonna drink this cool?
• 57:51
  Speaker 4: Okay, there is flavor.
• 57:54
  Speaker 3: I don't know the rest of the flavor.
• 57:56
  Speaker 1: There is a suggestion that Jim Jones actually died before
• 58:02
  Speaker 1: the end of Jonestown because there is this uh this
• 58:05
  Speaker 1: also comes from one of the survivor accounts. But one
• 58:08
  Speaker 1: of the he was all into like faith healing and
• 58:11
  Speaker 1: like magic and shit.
• 58:13
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and one of the this man loved garbage.
• 58:16
  Speaker 1: One of the things he did during one of his
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: presentations or whatever, was he had someone shoot him in
• 58:23
  Speaker 1: the chest or so it appeared, and then he was
• 58:26
  Speaker 1: dragged off stage and then walked back out. And a
• 58:30
  Speaker 1: lot of people are like, well, he probably like shot
• 58:33
  Speaker 1: the body double with blanks or something and came. But
• 58:36
  Speaker 1: there are some people who are like, no, I think
• 58:38
  Speaker 1: the government killed him in that moment, and it just
• 58:41
  Speaker 1: brought out the Jim Jones that would be a little
• 58:44
  Speaker 1: more compliant, and then.
• 58:47
  Speaker 5: He should be the CIA guy that's pitching that. It's
• 58:51
  Speaker 5: just like, hey, no, no, no, it's really simple. We
• 58:53
  Speaker 5: just make it look like a magic trick.
• 58:55
  Speaker 1: Well that's how Brandon.
• 58:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah, all you have to do is the CIA did that.
• 59:01
  Speaker 3: We all know.
• 59:01
  Speaker 1: All you would have to do is say there's blanks
• 59:03
  Speaker 1: and fucking yeah shoot them for real. I don't know, man,
• 59:06
  Speaker 1: it's crazy. Jonestown is a crazy, goddamn story.
• 59:09
  Speaker 4: It's a crazy story, and I give them credit for
• 59:12
  Speaker 4: trying to take it on and adapt it. There are
• 59:14
  Speaker 4: elements that I think do make our relevant to this
• 59:17
  Speaker 4: time and to this time in history and everything like that,
• 59:19
  Speaker 4: and what's going to America when they talk about you know,
• 59:22
  Speaker 4: like the sort of radical you know, lack of opportunity
• 59:25
  Speaker 4: and the isolation of you know, minorities and the elderly
• 59:29
  Speaker 4: and stuff like that, and how churches are often the
• 59:32
  Speaker 4: only institutions that seem to do any kind of outreach
• 59:36
  Speaker 4: to those people to exploit them usually.
• 59:37
  Speaker 3: But you know, they do, you know what you know,
• 59:41
  Speaker 3: but they feel good about it.
• 59:42
  Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, fine, exactly.
• 59:44
  Speaker 4: Yeah, they feel great. So I mean it's like, could
• 59:47
  Speaker 4: is this a realistic scenario that could very well happen today?
• 59:50
  Speaker 4: Could there be a modern day Jonestown? I think yeah,
• 59:52
  Speaker 4: very well, much very great. I guarantee there very well
• 59:55
  Speaker 4: much good.
• 59:56
  Speaker 5: I think that as long as America and therefore, you know,
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 5: most of Western civilization and like the global reality is
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 5: like in a capitalist paradigm, the soil is always fertile
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 5: for a jonestown as long as as long as like
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 5: there is this like great spiritual angst and existential alienation
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 5: going on among like everyone. Yeah, yeah, there's always there's
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 5: always exactly that void is always going to be there,
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 5: and there's always going to be space for someone like
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 5: Jim Jones or x Nazi CIA maybe to prop up
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 5: a Jim Jones, you know, to make these spaces for.
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 3: Shit like this. There's always a chance for it.
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean to see it, like, we have such
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 1: a long history of doing weird medical experiments and psychological
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: experiments on people, and I think we really downplay the
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 1: importance of that point in history after World War Two,
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 1: where we were like we're not fighting Nazis, We're bringing
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 1: them into the government.
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah, oh no, dude, we were like, we.
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 5: Were like, uh you know, Sterling Cooper, Draper Price, trying
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 5: to poach them.
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 1: Well, we fucked teams. We teamed up with the Nazis.
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 1: And one of the suggestions is that at one point
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 1: during World War Two, the Nazis convinced us that, hey,
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 1: Communism is your real enemy. We're fighting communists. You should
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 1: be fighting communists. And it sounds crazy, but what happens
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 1: after World War Two? We bring thousands of Nazis to
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 1: the United States and start fighting Communism exactly. Yeah.
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 4: I think it was said that Sidney Gottlieb got guys
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 4: who were like in the Nuremberg Trials, like flew them
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 4: out during the Nuremberg Trials to use them for experiments,
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 4: and then flew them back.
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 4: A Jewish man, a Jewish man, a doctor who took
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 4: a hippocratic oath, flew a bunch of Nazis who had
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 4: just been previously killing all of his uh you know,
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 4: possibly relatives, flew him to the States, used him, and
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 4: then dumped them back. What kind of a person as
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 4: that sort of Yeah, well it's choral code.
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 3: It's it's we were.
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 5: Not to be this fucking nerd, but we were a
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 5: silder after cutting the ring off Saurn's hand, like that
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 5: was America being like, oh, you guys, the rest of
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 5: Europe is like, no one's touching this thing, right, this
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 5: Nazi shit, because we saw what it just did in
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 5: America's like, buddy almost had the home planet, So.
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 3: Man, we want that.
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 1: When you think of what the Nazis were doing, they
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 1: weren't just killing Jews. They killed Jews in Germany because
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 1: that was the group in Germany to kill.
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 5: Oh they killed they killed socialists, they killed anarchists, they
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 5: killed roma people.
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 1: They killed because they considered.
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 5: Mentally disabled people, the old, the sick, handicapped.
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 1: Like well yes, and because they considered all of those
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 1: people sub human exactly. So imagine them coming to the
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 1: United States. Civil rights era is kicking off very soon.
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 1: You think they didn't go to the United States and go,
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 1: we can take care of that black people problem for you.
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 1: Granted it's going to take a thousand years because that's
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 1: how Reichs work, but we'll get there. I just wonder
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 1: at what point we're supposed to believe after World War
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: Two that all of those Nazis reformed their ways and
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 1: became good Americans, you know what, the same way.
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 4: Yeah, the same way we're supposed to believe that AIDS
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 4: just hit Africa just really.
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 1: Bad, sucky.
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 4: Yeah, there's no reason why.
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 5: Cocaine is only a problem in these in this one
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 5: very specific type of neighborhood.
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 3: I don't know's chance.
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 4: Amazing weird all those things happened.
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 5: Yeah, it's it's insane because it's like people will openly acknowledge,
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 5: right that, like, oh, yeah, we used Nazi scientists for NASA,
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 5: Like yeah, that's what we did because of rockets or whatever.
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 5: But it's like, you don't think we were taking a
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 5: look at anybody else's resumes over there. I don't think
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 5: we were kind of staffing some departments.
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the SS is half of the the first batch
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 1: of CIA agents, half of them were s.
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 4: It was called the OSS is there. Yeah, well you
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 4: take off one letter, what do you get?
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah?
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 4: But yeah, no, And also, I mean, we we got
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 4: all the medical results of the Japanese scientists had gotten
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 4: from all their human torture and all of their and
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 4: C seven to.
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 1: One something unit seven three one.
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 4: Unit seven three one, we agreed to not prosecute them.
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 4: In exchange for all of their data. We're like, give
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 4: us the data, we will prosecute you. So what did
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 4: we get out of that?
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 1: Meanwhile, Rush, we.
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 4: Just got all that data we were looking at. We're like,
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 4: oh good data.
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, my god. Meanwhile, Russia, when any Unit seven three
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 1: one members Russia captured were tried as war criminals, but
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 1: we brought them over and said help us, Yeah, help us.
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 5: We've seen they shutters stayed the funk out of the attic.
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 1: No, yeah, I didn't like it that much.
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I don't know it was it's the plot is
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 5: Joseph mac Well, that's actually a reveal yeah uh never mind.
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 4: Yeah, Joseph Man never mind.
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 5: Herlo's son Joseph in an alternate timeline.
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, this is about Jim jo never mind. Yeah,
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 4: so let us Yeah, that's what happened.
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 1: I think that's our episode. I'm sorry, No, this was good. Yeah, yeah,
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 1: we uh, we're I'm I'm We're getting close to wrapping
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 1: up this Jonestown thing. It's like, this is Jonestown just
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 1: spins off into so many other things that it's it's
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 1: really hard to get a handle on covering every aspect
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 1: of it. But I think we got two episodes left.
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 1: We're going to talk about the other Jonestown next, and then.
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 3: You're gonna talk about Jonestown ninety.
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 4: Nine when yah yeah euro euro jo'stown.
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 1: Jonestown, Japan, which all of those things probably exist, so.
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 4: Oh yeah exactly.
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 1: And uh, then we're gonna we're gonna talk about the
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 1: White Night. Do you know? That's what they called it
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 1: the night they all died. They called it the White Knight.
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 4: I did not know that. That's that's interesting because a
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 4: white guy killed them all right, he was I mean,
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 4: also just a little note from Indiana home of the KKK, yeah,
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 4: or like headquarters KKK.
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 4: But yo, Jim Jones is probably I mean, how many
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 4: black people did he personally murder?
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 1: Around nine hundred.
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 4: That's more than like most slave owners would ever even
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 4: come close to.
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I like when that K pop band BTS got
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 1: in trouble because they included a bunch of Jim Jones
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 1: speeches in one of their songs what What And people
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 1: were like, you know, he slaughtered black people, right, and
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 1: they were like, no, we just steal from black people.
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 1: We don't pay any attention to me.
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 4: Oh my god, damn. Anyway, great speaker, though.
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 2: He was.
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 1: He knew how to move a crowd, that's for sure.
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 1: See I love someone who can move a crowd.
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 4: To the people movers anyway, the places.
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 1: We should get out of here? Did we do plugs yet?
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 1: Do we have anything to plug? Laura? You got anything
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 1: to plug? You just got your hair? Did you look great?
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 4: I just got my hair done. It looks great. Spend
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 4: a lot of money. Yeah, but I haven't been a
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 4: long time, so that's great. My plugging my hair. Go
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 4: check out my Instagram at Crawford Comic. I'm on there,
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 4: post things, make stuff, can find me?
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 1: And do you got about you?
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 5: I don't.
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 1: I don't really Do you want to plug? Girl School?
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 1: The podcast that you host on.
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 5: History Podcast is back. There's new episodes coming. I also
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 5: just did a segment for my friends podcast Bunk two
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 5: thirty seven. There should be a new episode of that.
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 3: I am.
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 5: I do guest segments on there sometimes and I got
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 5: a new one coming out their basket Case episode.
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 3: And I'm on Twitter at.
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 5: Andy Underscore so sell as in sele a cop be
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 5: of the Sacrament on DVD.
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 3: I don't see what. I don't know what's happening.
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry that went that went bad, but it's a
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 1: better one next time. Uh you can. You can follow
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 1: me on Twitter and Instagram at Adam Todd Brown. That's
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 1: Todd with one D and uh, I'm gonna be launching
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 1: a writing project soon that day you'll be able to
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 1: give me money for and help help keep me, keep
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 1: me in food and clothes and things like that till
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 1: then let's get the F out of here. F is
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 1: short for fuck. Laura say goodbye.
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 4: Bye bye, Andy. Great seeing you and.
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 1: Andy, Andy say goodbye bye goodbye everybody. We love you.
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 5: The Baba Data, the Baba Dada Ababa Data Cabama