Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / FLA MASS shooter’s wife on trial. What did she know??

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FLA MASS shooter’s wife on trial. What did she know?? · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

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Speaker 1: March eleven pm. Thanks friend. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace
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Speaker 1: on Sirius XM Triumph Channel one two. Where where at
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Speaker 1: the night night? Look, okay, what's going on? Me? Like?
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Speaker 1: It was more fighting, like not knowing if you were
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Speaker 1: going to make it out. We know she was innocent,
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Speaker 1: We know all this was a bunch of lies. We
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Speaker 1: know that you know new is an innocent child with
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Speaker 1: the Orlando police. Can you tell me what you know
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Speaker 1: about what's going on? What's going on that I feel
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Speaker 1: the pain of the people getting killed in Serio and something. Okay,
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Speaker 1: So so act you done something about that? Yes, I heard,
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Speaker 1: tell me what you did. Please look, you already knew
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Speaker 1: what I did. Quote. I knew when he left the
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Speaker 1: house he was going to attack the Pulse, not club.
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Speaker 1: That is what the Orlando shooters wife said. But what
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Speaker 1: else did she know? Forty nine dead, more wounded, forty
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Speaker 1: nine dead. Imagine going out for the night on the town.
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Speaker 1: You're having a good time, you're dancing, your friends are there.
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Speaker 1: Maybe somebody knew you're dating, or you're somehow managed to
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Speaker 1: drag you and your husband out for the night, and
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Speaker 1: you're trapped in a nightclub. Everybody around you has been drinking,
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Speaker 1: and all of a sudden, a hell of bullets ring out,
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Speaker 1: and there's nowhere to go. It's like shooting fish in
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Speaker 1: a barrel. The stinch of blood and dead bodies took
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Speaker 1: over the club because of one guy and now on
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Speaker 1: trial his wife. He prosecutors say new the plan and
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Speaker 1: even helped hatch the plan. And I'll tell you why
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Speaker 1: I mean to see Grace. This is crime Stories. Thank
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Speaker 1: you for being with us. You know, when I think
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Speaker 1: back on places I went, things I did, and and
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Speaker 1: uh law school and when I got out of law school,
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Speaker 1: and when I was prosecuting, digging at witnesses and nightclubs
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Speaker 1: and strip bars and the crack houses and whorehouses, just
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Speaker 1: trying to go to hell to get my witnesses, to
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Speaker 1: put the devil in jail. There are a lot of
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Speaker 1: clubs we've all been to around for whatever reason. Forty
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Speaker 1: nine dead in a hell of bullets? What did his
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Speaker 1: wife know? With me? High profile lawyer, multi jurisdictional New Jersey,
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Speaker 1: New York, you name it everywhere, Jason Oceans with me.
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Speaker 1: Dr Bethany Marshall with me, l a psycho analyst also
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Speaker 1: with me on the story from the beginning, Alan Duke. Alan.
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Speaker 1: She says, quote, I knew when you left the house
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Speaker 1: he was going to Orlando to attack Pulse Nightclub. You
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Speaker 1: know what. Hold on, let's take a listen in real
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Speaker 1: time to the nine one one. Call me where you are?
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Speaker 1: Where's the nightclubs? Nightclub? Okay? What's going on? Me? Okay? Okay?
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Speaker 1: Have behind We have a lot of clubs there. Can
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Speaker 1: you tell me who's shooting? Did you see no? Okay?
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Speaker 1: Did you get anybody? Do you see anybody hurt? No?
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Speaker 1: I ran a slush as I turned this bus everywhere.
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Speaker 1: She is right here. Three. Let me get you over
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Speaker 1: to the Florida or the fire department. They're gonna have
5:25
Speaker 1: you give her first day. Stay on the line so
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Speaker 1: we can give her first day. Don't hang up nine
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Speaker 1: one one. What is the location of being that much?
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Speaker 1: And see? Okay? Awesome? Like please, what's going on at
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Speaker 1: pulf nightclubs? I don't know what's sharing good? So it's
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Speaker 1: like crackay, hold on the line for Orlando Police Department.
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Speaker 1: Try to get yourself somewhere safe. Don't hang up the
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Speaker 1: phone right now. Home? Do you think the shooters went
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Speaker 1: our side? Okay? All right, just everyone be quiet, don't
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Speaker 1: move okay. Oh my god, oh my god, Oh my god,
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Speaker 1: oh my god, oh my god. You hear reloading. I
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Speaker 1: think we are in about from the poll we've been
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Speaker 1: waiting when they told up were coming in. Now we
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Speaker 1: have the poor people that that are and we have
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Speaker 1: a two people that are shocker that are getting worse.
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Speaker 1: We have another gut that's on the line as well.
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Speaker 1: We're getting help to them. Where are they? I don't understanding.
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Speaker 1: Everyone's getting worse. Where are they? They're trying to make
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Speaker 1: their way to you. They have not just you the
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Speaker 1: wrong way. You guys are we are trying to make
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Speaker 1: it through the building, but they're trying to get to
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Speaker 1: everyone as quickly as they can. I have you want
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Speaker 1: your family to know what come on? That is the
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Speaker 1: devastation that was rained down on innocent people at Pulse
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Speaker 1: Nightclub in Orlando. You know, um, Jason, you have two
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Speaker 1: children just like me, a boy and a girl. It
7:06
Speaker 1: was just a couple of days ago. I was in
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Speaker 1: Orlando taking them to Universal and Harry potter Land and
7:13
Speaker 1: the John F. Kennedy Space Center. And yes, I went
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Speaker 1: to gather Land. Don't judge me, but I everywhere I drove,
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Speaker 1: were driving around in the minivan. Oh yes, we drove down.
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Speaker 1: We didn't fly. And I was looking around the Orlando area.
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Speaker 1: Did you know, Jason Ocean's defense lawyer that the shooter's
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Speaker 1: wife nor went with him. According to GPS locator cell
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Speaker 1: phones and statements, went with the Pulse shooter, the Orlando
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Speaker 1: shooter to case out potential murder locations, including Disney Springs,
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Speaker 1: including shopping Center, City Place, shopping mall in the middle
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Speaker 1: of the night. Don't tell me it was just a
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Speaker 1: shopping trip. Jason Oceans because I know that's what you
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Speaker 1: are fixing your mouth to say. It was in the
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Speaker 1: middle of the night and they took their then three
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Speaker 1: year old top boy with them. If my husband dragged
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Speaker 1: me out of bed at three am to go to
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Speaker 1: drive around miles and miles of driving, oh yeah, they're
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Speaker 1: better be an answer, Jason, how can you tell me
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Speaker 1: as a defense lawyer, she did not know? And that's
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Speaker 1: the tip of the iceberg. Jason, Well, I think you're
8:43
Speaker 1: you know, it becomes uh, you know, an evidentiary, circumstantial case,
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Speaker 1: everything all pinpointed in and the drive you know, when
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Speaker 1: you have a young child and a young baby, as
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Speaker 1: I'm told they do, it's not uncommon to drive around
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Speaker 1: and try to lower your child to sleep. I don't
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Speaker 1: know what they were up to, but it's more the
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Speaker 1: prosecution side to prove this. Okay, Just just so to
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Speaker 1: stop right there, Jason, whatever I've said about you in
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Speaker 1: the past, all those horrible things I would say right
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Speaker 1: to your face on court TV and on h L M, Okay,
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Speaker 1: I take them all back, because that's a stroke of genius,
9:20
Speaker 1: because you know, I had asthma as a child, and
9:24
Speaker 1: it runs in our family, and I had a cousin.
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Speaker 1: They had to take her out and drive her around
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Speaker 1: in the salt air. They moved near the ocean, and
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Speaker 1: they would drive her around all during the night with
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Speaker 1: the window dawn, breathing in the salt air to help
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Speaker 1: her breathe better. Jason, you know what, that's a stroke
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Speaker 1: of genius. It's alive, of course, but it is a
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Speaker 1: stroke of genius. Please go ahead. I'm I'm mesmerized, like
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Speaker 1: watching a snake and a snake charmer. Go ahead, give
9:53
Speaker 1: me some more of that defense. That's that's what your
9:57
Speaker 1: objective is, Nancy. I mean, when you have certainly the
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Speaker 1: public eye and the mass shooting, and you know a
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Speaker 1: case against the life, it almost arises, how could she
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Speaker 1: not know? But there are many times where your partner
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Speaker 1: doesn't know a dual life, married to one and lives
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Speaker 1: in another city with another family, and you're deceived because
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Speaker 1: you want to be. So that's where it has to arrive.
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Speaker 1: All this various circumstantial evidence has to pinpoint. But your
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Speaker 1: job is defense counsel, is to pass through each piece
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Speaker 1: and discredit it enough to create reasonable doubt that maybe
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Speaker 1: perhaps she was duped, uh, just like anyone in their
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Speaker 1: family was seemingly that didn't know about it. To Dr
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Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall l a psychoanalyst, Dr Bethany, I have to
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Speaker 1: agree with Jason in that, not that I believe anything
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Speaker 1: he's saying, in that you take each piece of the
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Speaker 1: state's case. It's not just that um they what do
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Speaker 1: you say, GPS tracking on a car shows they were
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Speaker 1: out their cell phones show she was with him driving
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Speaker 1: around to all these spots PS, Bethany, the um City
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Speaker 1: shopping I'm gonna get the correct name of that city
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Speaker 1: place shopping mall. And then the Disney Springs or two
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Speaker 1: of the locations they cased the night of the Orlando shooting.
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Speaker 1: I mean sixty eight wounded. He first went to Disney Springs.
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Speaker 1: He went there, I believe, to a club. He went in,
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Speaker 1: he saw a heavy police presence. He just bought a
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Speaker 1: T shirt and left one of the places he cased
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Speaker 1: with his wife, nor and their three year old talk
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Speaker 1: boy with them, which further corroborates the point of the
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Speaker 1: drive around the walk about they did that night. But
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Speaker 1: I want to follow up on something Jason says. There
12:01
Speaker 1: have been so many women that I know very well,
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Speaker 1: and I've done it to you. You want to believe
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Speaker 1: what you want to believe in a relationship, luckily not
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Speaker 1: with my husband. But you ignore signs that there's something wrong.
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Speaker 1: You ignore signs that somebody has an issue or a
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Speaker 1: problem that may be intolerable to you because you don't
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Speaker 1: want to know about it. You want things to work.
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Speaker 1: You want that picture perfect life, that family, that home,
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Speaker 1: that whatever, that that's what you want in your head.
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Speaker 1: And you wrap reality around your dream I mean, Bethany,
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Speaker 1: she knew he had been watching the hottest videos for
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Speaker 1: two years, Bethany, and you know Nancy not only that,
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Speaker 1: but according to her own confession, he would repeatedly say
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Speaker 1: to her, um, what do you think would upset people
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Speaker 1: more if I shot up a group of people at
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Speaker 1: Disneyland or at a nightclub? So he was obsessing out
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Speaker 1: loud to her. Um. Furthermore, in June of that year,
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Speaker 1: he ran up a credit card bill of about twenty
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Speaker 1: six thousand dollars UM, some of it on AMMOUM guns.
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Speaker 1: He only made thirty thousand dollars a year. But to
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Speaker 1: speak to your point, I like love when you said
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Speaker 1: wrap reality around her dreams because or build her own
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Speaker 1: narrative about what was really happening. She may not have
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Speaker 1: seen the credit card bill. She may have thought he
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Speaker 1: was just having a bad day, Jathany, she was with him.
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Speaker 1: That was one of their insurance policy, and that's another issue.
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Speaker 1: I'm gonna let Jason. I'm gonna give Jason Ocean's high
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Speaker 1: profile defense attorney and the try stay area. Jason, I'll
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Speaker 1: let you percolate on this so you can come up
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Speaker 1: with an answer. But Dr Bethany Marshal outlined very carefully
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Speaker 1: some of their spending. You're right, he made about thirty
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Speaker 1: grand a year, but eleven days before the shooting went
14:14
Speaker 1: on a about a thirty thousand dollar spending spree on
14:18
Speaker 1: items she could sell after his death. Over nine thousand
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Speaker 1: on jewelry, electrical electric electronics, over two grand on guns
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Speaker 1: and AMMO. He took her to the bank with him
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Speaker 1: and made her a signatory on there on his accounts,
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Speaker 1: so she could have access to him to those accounts
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Speaker 1: after his death or capture um. She that night texted
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Speaker 1: to him what she would tell his mother if the
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Speaker 1: mother called looking for him. She said, I'll just tell
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Speaker 1: your mom if she calls that you're out with NEMO.
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Speaker 1: There's just so much evidence but I want to get
15:07
Speaker 1: back to the Jahattest videos. I mean, Dr Bethany Marshall,
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Speaker 1: you're the shrink. If I came home and found David
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Speaker 1: watching Jo Hottest videos, his rear in would be in
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Speaker 1: the front yard and the locks changed on this house
15:26
Speaker 1: before you can say Jo Hottest video. He would be gone,
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Speaker 1: not have the hottest videos playing around the twins around
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Speaker 1: her child. I mean day one, he had been watching
15:39
Speaker 1: for two two years. He's been watching Jah Hottest videos, Bethany.
15:43
Speaker 1: But you know, Nancy, I remember reading a prison study
15:47
Speaker 1: about women who fell in love with inmates and they
15:50
Speaker 1: would regularly visit uh there there boyfriends or lovers in jail,
15:57
Speaker 1: and none of the women knew what the men's rap
15:59
Speaker 1: sheets were. They refused to put their thoughts together about
16:03
Speaker 1: about the men's criminal activity. So to speak to your
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Speaker 1: earlier point, she could have been one of these women
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Speaker 1: who had all this evidence right in front of her,
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Speaker 1: but she rationalized it away, or she built a narrative.
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Speaker 1: She might have just thought, well, hey, he's angry, Um,
16:22
Speaker 1: maybe he uh is fascinated with a different culture, and
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Speaker 1: wouldn't allow herself to think about it. On the other hand,
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Speaker 1: when you say that she went to the bank with him,
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Speaker 1: and that a part of those purchases were jewelry. I
16:36
Speaker 1: had no idea about that, and that part of that
16:39
Speaker 1: was so that she would have something to sell after
16:42
Speaker 1: the commission of the crime. That's pretty compelling behavioral evidence
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Speaker 1: that she knew what was going on. As a matter
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Speaker 1: of fact, that is exactly what her defenses climbing. Listen
16:53
Speaker 1: to this. You know, Nora is a very young woman
16:56
Speaker 1: at heart. She's very kind, and she thinks well of everybody. Um,
17:00
Speaker 1: she's afraid and she's been depressed. She's by herself twenty
17:04
Speaker 1: four hours a day. But um. During jury selection, she
17:08
Speaker 1: said that she was really looking forward to the jury
17:11
Speaker 1: hearing the evidence because she knows that a lot of
17:15
Speaker 1: things that have been reported and leaked to the media
17:17
Speaker 1: have been untrue. And she said, I really can't wait
17:19
Speaker 1: for them to hear, for the truth to come out,
17:22
Speaker 1: for the trial to start. I really want for the
17:24
Speaker 1: jury to hear to hear the evidence. So you know,
17:27
Speaker 1: we're in a phase now. We're um, you know, we're
17:30
Speaker 1: really respectful of the families and we know that Pulse
17:34
Speaker 1: night Club massacre was a horrible crime. And the next
17:37
Speaker 1: week is going to be really difficult for everybody, and
17:40
Speaker 1: we want to respect the families and the victims and
17:43
Speaker 1: the friends of the um Pulse victims, but we want
17:47
Speaker 1: to remember that a woman is on trial for her
17:49
Speaker 1: life here and that she deserves everybody's full attention, and
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Speaker 1: that you know, we wanna We're gonna wait for all
17:57
Speaker 1: of the evidence to be presented. And what is the
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Speaker 1: location of emergency? Okay, what's going on at Pars nightclub?
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Speaker 1: I don't know what's sharing police department try to get
18:13
Speaker 1: somewhere to the phone. There are strong indications of radicalization
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Speaker 1: by this killer and a potential inspiration by foreign terrorist organizations.
18:24
Speaker 1: I wonder, just as a dad, do you think you'll
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Speaker 1: miss your son? Well? I if he didn't do this
18:31
Speaker 1: act horrible acts, probably I would. But right now I
18:34
Speaker 1: don't forgive him. This is very I don't know why
18:38
Speaker 1: what he did, why he did, but that's unforgiven to her.
18:44
Speaker 1: The other one family. We live in unit state as
18:47
Speaker 1: a family, and we belong to each other as a neighbor,
18:51
Speaker 1: as a friend, as associate worker. And that's how I
18:56
Speaker 1: was teaching him to Jason Ocean's High a final defense law.
19:01
Speaker 1: You're joining me out of the tri State area where
19:05
Speaker 1: he practices for the most part um Jason. They are arguing.
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Speaker 1: The defense is arguing that she was abused and she
19:14
Speaker 1: was afraid to question him, that she was simple and
19:19
Speaker 1: easily misguided and manipulated. Whoa she's living with him. She
19:25
Speaker 1: sees the Jihades video. She sees him buying tons of
19:29
Speaker 1: AMMO and guns. She says, Oh, that's because he's a
19:32
Speaker 1: security guard. He never shoots it. He has a shot
19:36
Speaker 1: anybody at work. Why does he have to keep replenishing
19:39
Speaker 1: m open Just ps before you say, before you step
19:42
Speaker 1: on a landline, Jason. She has a degree and medical administration.
19:47
Speaker 1: She's not an idiot, Jason. We're not. We're not referring
19:51
Speaker 1: to anyone's intelligence. We're talking about, you know what, the
19:54
Speaker 1: religious aspect of their relationship. That's not you know, the
19:59
Speaker 1: man and and Shaw dominant. She wasn't on any of
20:03
Speaker 1: the accounts until the very end. Okay, never mind, I'll
20:06
Speaker 1: give you that one. You could say that she went
20:08
Speaker 1: with him, I could say that he took her and
20:11
Speaker 1: told her what to do. You know what she sees
20:14
Speaker 1: and what she processes relative to her relationship. Clearly he
20:20
Speaker 1: was the dominant party. Uh, and and what she what
20:24
Speaker 1: she took out of that was, you know, hopefully she
20:27
Speaker 1: had a partner for life, or you know, was subservient
20:31
Speaker 1: and did not process, notwithstanding her intelligence or her job,
20:35
Speaker 1: you know, the totality of what was going on, or
20:38
Speaker 1: just didn't want to understand it that way, it was
20:40
Speaker 1: too much to grieve about or think about that this
20:43
Speaker 1: was going to happen. Well, this is what I know
20:46
Speaker 1: that night, Alan, do you She texts him and says, Hey,
20:50
Speaker 1: if your mom calls, I'm telling your you're out with
20:53
Speaker 1: your friend Nemo. And then just before the shooting, he
20:57
Speaker 1: writes her, I love you. I love you, Bay. Yeah.
21:01
Speaker 1: It's just so clear to me that she did know.
21:05
Speaker 1: On the other hand, I don't want her to be
21:07
Speaker 1: the scapegoat because her husband murdered forty nine people. But
21:13
Speaker 1: all of that is irrelevant. What is relevant are the facts, Alan,
21:16
Speaker 1: What more do we know? Well, there is a controversy
21:20
Speaker 1: in the trial, and that evidence that the government had
21:24
Speaker 1: suggested they had didn't quite pan out in a pre
21:28
Speaker 1: trial hearing, and that has to do with a twenty
21:31
Speaker 1: minute circling of the Pulse nightclub a few days before
21:35
Speaker 1: the attack. The FBI had said that during a polygraph
21:39
Speaker 1: test that the wife told them that they circled the
21:44
Speaker 1: nightclub for twenty minutes and talked about it and discussed it,
21:49
Speaker 1: but then that the cell phone UH data, the digital
21:55
Speaker 1: GPS data that they've got now to us in court
21:58
Speaker 1: shows that could not have happened. So the judge was
22:02
Speaker 1: pretty upset about this week, and the family were out
22:04
Speaker 1: in the courthouse steps and said she needs to be freed.
22:07
Speaker 1: Let's take a listen. That FBI had evidence, that I
22:12
Speaker 1: mean hard evidence right, that they had not gone to
22:16
Speaker 1: Pulst nightclub and had never searched it on the internet.
22:20
Speaker 1: When they presented the information from their experts in August,
22:25
Speaker 1: they only said that this summary witness was going to
22:28
Speaker 1: testify on a PowerPoint presentation of the GPS locations and towers.
22:33
Speaker 1: They never knew for sure. They knew what nor said, right,
22:37
Speaker 1: which was that that was something that was not true,
22:40
Speaker 1: that that was something written by the FBI that she
22:42
Speaker 1: didn't say that, But they didn't know what the government's
22:45
Speaker 1: evidence was. So it came out today that the government
22:48
Speaker 1: has known since April of last year that the GPS
22:53
Speaker 1: on the phones did not show that they ever went
22:56
Speaker 1: to Pulse Nightclub, that Nor never went to Pult Nightclub,
22:59
Speaker 1: and that the first time Omar ever went to Pult
23:02
Speaker 1: Nightclub was one am on June twelve. Let me understand something,
23:05
Speaker 1: Jason otions. So, just because the cell phone data doesn't
23:13
Speaker 1: match what she says, why should I believe her? I
23:17
Speaker 1: don't believe her. Why isn't the state's problem that she's lying. Well,
23:22
Speaker 1: now we're running now, we're running into it. Now we're
23:26
Speaker 1: running into you know, poor police tactics at the time
23:30
Speaker 1: of interrogation and you know, getting a confessional statement that
23:34
Speaker 1: wasn't accurate. I don't know when that time period was
23:38
Speaker 1: in the interrogation or you know, I don't have a
23:42
Speaker 1: reference point. But you know, you and I both know
23:45
Speaker 1: that that could be a rough time evidentiary in terms
23:48
Speaker 1: of what comes in and and what gets excluded. But
23:52
Speaker 1: but this is already in now now you're you're just
23:56
Speaker 1: you know, having your own defense witness come in and
23:59
Speaker 1: matching out those GPS kings and saying, well, they weren't
24:02
Speaker 1: even there, So she wasn't even there at at the
24:06
Speaker 1: time that in theory she would have said this. Why
24:09
Speaker 1: would she say something that actually doesn't point out. For
24:13
Speaker 1: all I know, it could have been another night. I
24:17
Speaker 1: don't know when it happened. I don't know if what
24:19
Speaker 1: she said happened. Really we're getting into I do know
24:24
Speaker 1: that's her problem. Maybe that's not the States problem. Maybe
24:27
Speaker 1: that's her problem. Maybe the battery ran down on her
24:30
Speaker 1: phone and it was off. Maybe she left it at home.
24:33
Speaker 1: That happens, well, it works later that night, when she
24:35
Speaker 1: came up with a cover story to cover her murderous husband.
24:38
Speaker 1: I also know statements that she gave according to the
24:41
Speaker 1: U S attorneys, quote, I knew on Saturday, when he
24:45
Speaker 1: left the house about five pm that this was the
24:49
Speaker 1: time that he was going to do something bad. I
24:51
Speaker 1: knew this because of the way he left and took
24:54
Speaker 1: the gun and backpacked with ammunition. That's according to this
24:57
Speaker 1: statement that she signed. Quote. I knew later, when I
25:02
Speaker 1: could not get a hold of him, that my fears
25:04
Speaker 1: had come true and he did what he said he
25:08
Speaker 1: was going to do. I was in denial and I
25:12
Speaker 1: could not believe the father of my child was going
25:14
Speaker 1: to hurt other people. So, if that is true, she
25:19
Speaker 1: knew and the two had been According to the state casing,
25:25
Speaker 1: Disney Springs and City place in Palm Beach. His statement,
25:30
Speaker 1: how upset are people going to be when it gets attacked?
25:33
Speaker 1: I mean the thought Dr Bethany of attacking Disneyland. You
25:40
Speaker 1: know what I hear in this interrogation is that she's
25:44
Speaker 1: beginning to piece together in her own mind a narrative
25:48
Speaker 1: of what's been happening in her marriage, and on the
25:51
Speaker 1: night of the attack, she appears to be. You know,
25:54
Speaker 1: there's eleven hours of questioning, and she changed her story
25:59
Speaker 1: three times aimes. And then the detective who was interrogating
26:04
Speaker 1: her did not tape the the interrogation. He wrote down
26:09
Speaker 1: his own notes, and then she initialed in the margins.
26:12
Speaker 1: So it's kind of hard to know what happened. But
26:15
Speaker 1: what I think happened is she kept changing her story
26:18
Speaker 1: because she was perhaps malleable with the detective, beginning to
26:23
Speaker 1: think about what really happened, varying levels of consciousness. And
26:28
Speaker 1: it could be that she interacted with the interrogator the detective,
26:33
Speaker 1: just like she interacted with her husband, always changing her
26:36
Speaker 1: levels of consciousness, always like um reevaluating what it was
26:43
Speaker 1: she was seeing, going into um states of consciousness and
26:47
Speaker 1: then denial. But on some level, I do believe regardless
26:52
Speaker 1: of what we're talking about today. That she had animosity
26:56
Speaker 1: towards the public just like her husband did. She had
26:59
Speaker 1: to have some varying degrees of hatred herself or she
27:03
Speaker 1: would not have cluded with him and the way she did,
27:05
Speaker 1: because he was obsessively murderous like mass shooters are. And
27:11
Speaker 1: you cannot stay married to somebody who's obsessively full of
27:15
Speaker 1: hatred if you don't have some hatred yourself. Take a listen, terrifying.
27:20
Speaker 1: We've been knowing. We know she was innocent. We know
27:25
Speaker 1: all this was bunch of lives. We know that. You know,
27:29
Speaker 1: Nor is an innocent child. She's not the kind of
27:32
Speaker 1: violent people person that they commit that she is. If
27:36
Speaker 1: some people asking what his mother, you want to know
27:39
Speaker 1: why she's in jail, where do you guys tell him
27:45
Speaker 1: she would be she would be free. See from day one,
27:48
Speaker 1: I always say she's innocent because I know her very well.
27:52
Speaker 1: I believe in justice system that's she's gonna They're gonna
27:56
Speaker 1: find that. I always believe that they're gonna find her
27:58
Speaker 1: that's innocent. Four years and a half suffering, So we
28:03
Speaker 1: know the justice system gonna take it a bit. But
28:06
Speaker 1: the way it's being handled that's wrong. Well, that's all
28:10
Speaker 1: well and good. Take a listen to what a Pulse
28:14
Speaker 1: nightclub victim tells me at it was horrifying, like not
28:20
Speaker 1: knowing if you were going to make it out or
28:23
Speaker 1: if anybody was going to make it out, because at
28:25
Speaker 1: that point, it was like when I was crawling and
28:28
Speaker 1: I noticed the bathroom, it was like, should I go
28:30
Speaker 1: into the bathroom? And I thought about, no, I can't
28:33
Speaker 1: go because there was no exit because I remember going
28:36
Speaker 1: in and seeing that there was no way out of
28:38
Speaker 1: the bathroom, and I wasn't gonna be trapped, so I
28:41
Speaker 1: had to continue out towards the back gate. It was
28:44
Speaker 1: like a scary movie. You don't run upstairs when you
28:46
Speaker 1: know there's somebody in the house, because you're not going
28:48
Speaker 1: to jump from a second story window. And and so
28:51
Speaker 1: I know I had to continue going out the back
28:53
Speaker 1: and I knew the patio was back there, so I
28:56
Speaker 1: was just crawling and crawling on the floor by my
28:58
Speaker 1: stomach and my arms until I had reached the cement.
29:01
Speaker 1: And when I realized I was outside, I had gotten
29:04
Speaker 1: up and I was crouching down zig zagging so that
29:07
Speaker 1: I can try to avoid getting shas and you were
29:10
Speaker 1: in the nightclub when the massacre occurred. What was the
29:14
Speaker 1: first evidence you heard? What was the first thing you
29:18
Speaker 1: saw or heard that let you know something horrible was happening. Um,
29:25
Speaker 1: when we were in the h in the main room, Uh,
29:28
Speaker 1: we heard a gunshot. UM. We really didn't know what
29:30
Speaker 1: it was. UM, so we kind of paused, and then
29:33
Speaker 1: UM more gunshots went off and it was one after another,
29:37
Speaker 1: one after another. We got really scared and we just
29:40
Speaker 1: started running for our lives. It was just some people
29:42
Speaker 1: were hitting the ground, some people were running. UM. That's
29:46
Speaker 1: when we knew, you know that that something was terribly wrong.
29:50
Speaker 1: What did you see and what exactly did you hear? UM?
29:54
Speaker 1: I was UM, I was with my friends and we
29:56
Speaker 1: were having a conversation. About twenty seconds into our conversation,
30:00
Speaker 1: we just hear a loud bang. I mean it was
30:03
Speaker 1: so loud. Um, I've never heard anything like that in
30:06
Speaker 1: my life. UM. And then it was just one after another,
30:09
Speaker 1: one after another. UM, and everybody started hitting the ground.
30:13
Speaker 1: People were running. I started running. I felt my best
30:16
Speaker 1: friend got shot. UM. It was just UM, something that
30:21
Speaker 1: was just it was insane. It was crazy. When you
30:24
Speaker 1: said your best friend got shot. Were you there when
30:27
Speaker 1: your friend was shot. Yeah, I was. I was standing
30:31
Speaker 1: right next to him. Once the gunshot started firing, we
30:35
Speaker 1: all we all started turning around, UM to one of
30:38
Speaker 1: the exit doors to to start running. UM. We both
30:42
Speaker 1: have fell down. UM. I fell down because I tripped
30:45
Speaker 1: over somebody. UM. And once I was able to get
30:47
Speaker 1: out and jump a fence in the patio, UM, I
30:50
Speaker 1: looked back and my friend wasn't there. So UM I
30:54
Speaker 1: knew he was shot because he faced time me from
30:57
Speaker 1: the ground. Joining me is Jason Gonzalez, who survived the shooting.
31:04
Speaker 1: What did you see when you were trying to get
31:07
Speaker 1: out of there? When you looked around, what could you see?
31:13
Speaker 1: I just I just saw fear and everybody everybody was
31:16
Speaker 1: just either people just started hitting the ground, Nancy, and
31:20
Speaker 1: then some people just started running. UM. Some people started hiding. UM.
31:25
Speaker 1: I started running and I fell and then people were
31:27
Speaker 1: running over me. UM. I wasn't able to get up
31:30
Speaker 1: right away. And then when I was able to, I
31:32
Speaker 1: just ran into UH to a doorway that led out
31:35
Speaker 1: to the patio. UM. And UM, by the grace of God,
31:39
Speaker 1: I was. I was able to jump over that fence.
31:43
Speaker 1: When you hear now that the federal government. The U. S.
31:47
Speaker 1: Attorney is taking or is planning to take Mateen's wife
31:52
Speaker 1: to a federal grand jury. And people are saying, but
31:56
Speaker 1: she's cooperating, she was she was afraid of AM. What
32:01
Speaker 1: do you say to that? Um? You know, I just
32:05
Speaker 1: don't buy that. Um. If she brought him up here
32:09
Speaker 1: and she was with him, she had time, she had
32:12
Speaker 1: she could have picked up a phone, she could have
32:15
Speaker 1: called somebody, She could have told somebody that this guy
32:17
Speaker 1: was doing something horribly wrong. Um. Innocent people lost their
32:21
Speaker 1: lives and and it's just horrible. It's just horrible. So
32:26
Speaker 1: at this juncture, Uh Jason notions she's looking at life
32:31
Speaker 1: behind bars if she is convicted. I mean, frankly, if
32:36
Speaker 1: she was part of this, she should be looking at
32:37
Speaker 1: the death penalty. And you know, the totality of what
32:43
Speaker 1: happened is so enormous, and we're so now sensitized, not
32:47
Speaker 1: desensitized to terrorism and domestic terrorism and foreign terrorism. So
32:52
Speaker 1: you know, there's no general sympathy if you were part
32:55
Speaker 1: of collusion in some way. You know, the question goes
32:58
Speaker 1: into the psychology prof Isle is Dr Marshall reference, isn't
33:02
Speaker 1: you know where where she was at that state. Was
33:05
Speaker 1: she just in denial, uh, cognitively knowing it or did
33:09
Speaker 1: she ate it in some way? Uh? You know, not
33:13
Speaker 1: that she was duped, but did she believe it would
33:16
Speaker 1: all happen? And does the evidence point to that? Right now,
33:20
Speaker 1: our eyes on a Florida courtroom as this scenario unfolds
33:24
Speaker 1: in a federal district courtroom, dead wounded, we want justice.
33:35
Speaker 1: Honor student, a varsity cheerleader, the blonde hair down the back,
33:41
Speaker 1: the big perfect smile, the scarlet red mermaid dress covered
33:46
Speaker 1: in sequence that problems, I mean, the works I'm talking
33:50
Speaker 1: about nineteen year old Skyler Richardson. Well, here's the fly
33:54
Speaker 1: in the ointment. There's a dead baby buried in the
33:59
Speaker 1: back yard. The big headline today is nineteen year old
34:03
Speaker 1: Skyler Richardson says she had a stellborn baby. So why
34:07
Speaker 1: is she on trial for murder? Because the baby, according
34:13
Speaker 1: to sources, was not stillborn? Because according to reports, the
34:18
Speaker 1: baby's body was charred and buried by the barbecue pit
34:23
Speaker 1: in the backyard. What am I missing something, John Lemley,
34:29
Speaker 1: Crime Stories investigative reporter, No, this is, unfortunately the direction
34:34
Speaker 1: the story has gone in Brooke. Skylar Richardson really seemed
34:38
Speaker 1: to live a charmed life that most teenage girls would envy,
34:43
Speaker 1: As Scarlett O'Hara would say, you know, pe green with
34:47
Speaker 1: envy that they were not. Skylar Richardson, the eighteen year old,
34:52
Speaker 1: was a cheerleader who worked during the summer at a
34:55
Speaker 1: camp for kids with disabilities. She graduated with honors in Carlisle, Ohio.
35:02
Speaker 1: She planned to attend the University of Cincinnati to study nursing.
35:06
Speaker 1: Other students noticed that Richardson, she was part of the
35:10
Speaker 1: high school classes uh senior classes, most popular crowd. Was
35:15
Speaker 1: always well put together everything no hair out of place,
35:20
Speaker 1: makeup just so so, hair perfect. Beneath that exterior, however,
35:25
Speaker 1: things were apparently anything but. In May of that year,
35:31
Speaker 1: at the prom, a number of people, some for the
35:35
Speaker 1: first time, noticed that she was obviously pregnant. And then
35:40
Speaker 1: just a week or so later they see Skyler, she's
35:45
Speaker 1: not pregnant anymore, but there's no baby. Well, this is
35:49
Speaker 1: what else I know, and correct me if I'm wrong
35:52
Speaker 1: before I go to ask you Willcott and Karen Stark
35:55
Speaker 1: and so my understanding. A grand jury has indicted Skylar
35:59
Speaker 1: Richardson for were aggravated murder involuntary manslaughter, gross abuse of
36:04
Speaker 1: a corpse, tampering with evidence, and child endangering. The prosecutor,
36:10
Speaker 1: David Fornshell, says the cheerleader burned and buried her daughter
36:16
Speaker 1: in the family's backyard just hours after giving birth. Of
36:21
Speaker 1: course she has pled not guilty. Oh footnote, she's not
36:25
Speaker 1: in jail. I guarantee you if I killed somebody and
36:29
Speaker 1: burned their body and and buried in the backyard, I'd
36:32
Speaker 1: be under the jail. But not this girl. Uh do
36:36
Speaker 1: I have any of those facts wrong? John Lmley, All
36:39
Speaker 1: that is correct. And all of this came to light
36:42
Speaker 1: after a doctor that Richardson had seen um that he
36:48
Speaker 1: called in and said that she may have delivered a
36:52
Speaker 1: stillborn baby. And that's when police searched the family's property,
36:56
Speaker 1: where they say they found the charred remains of a
36:59
Speaker 1: new born girl in Richardson's backyard, then arrested the team.
37:04
Speaker 1: They they're not quite sure. They think the baby may
37:08
Speaker 1: have died before the uh you know, been stillborn, or
37:13
Speaker 1: the baby may have been killed before the remains were
37:17
Speaker 1: attemptedly destroyed. My main question is do we have evidence
37:24
Speaker 1: the child was alive at birth? I mean, for them
37:28
Speaker 1: to charge her with aggravated murder. The child had to
37:32
Speaker 1: be alive in order to kill it. They really believe
37:37
Speaker 1: because it was a full term baby um and that
37:41
Speaker 1: she was you know, full had been gone full term.
37:46
Speaker 1: They really see no reason to believe that the baby
37:50
Speaker 1: was stillborn. They believed that it was born alive and healthy. Well,
37:56
Speaker 1: let's go to Karen Stark, New York Psychologists joining us
37:59
Speaker 1: and ask you. Wilcot, juvenile all judge and founder of
38:03
Speaker 1: child crime watch dot com. Also with me Crime Stories
38:07
Speaker 1: investigative reporter John Limley, Alan Duke out of l A
38:11
Speaker 1: and Jackie Howard here in the studio with me, Ashley Wilcott.
38:15
Speaker 1: Here's the deal. Abortion is legal. Now. A lot of
38:19
Speaker 1: people don't agree with abortion. They think it's a crime. Fine,
38:23
Speaker 1: you can think that that's something for you to decide
38:26
Speaker 1: when you go to heaven and meet your maker. All right,
38:29
Speaker 1: murder is not legal. I have so much to say
38:32
Speaker 1: about this case, Nancy. Oh my murder is not legal.
38:35
Speaker 1: But listen, there is so much more that we don't
38:38
Speaker 1: know yet. Number one, I agree with you the fact
38:41
Speaker 1: she's been charged with aggravated murder. I suspect there's some
38:44
Speaker 1: evidence this child was born alive, but there's a gag order,
38:47
Speaker 1: so we don't know that yet. Number two, the mother
38:50
Speaker 1: is described as also having this need to be perfect
38:53
Speaker 1: and look just so. So I call bs that this
38:57
Speaker 1: family did not know, or a mother did not know,
39:01
Speaker 1: something was up with her daughter. She had to have
39:04
Speaker 1: gained at least a little weight, right, and I'm sure
39:07
Speaker 1: she was acting different, hormonal. I do not believe that
39:11
Speaker 1: her mother didn't have a clue at some point in
39:14
Speaker 1: time something was going on. I would submit this teenager
39:18
Speaker 1: ignored her pregnancy. She's into being just so so and
39:22
Speaker 1: being a teenager without how a fully developed, rational, good brain,
39:27
Speaker 1: and she took it way too far. So I don't
39:29
Speaker 1: think that she actually paid attention, and she was in
39:33
Speaker 1: denial and all of a sudden, what happens, Uh, eight months,
39:37
Speaker 1: nine months, You've got a full baby. So in her
39:40
Speaker 1: messed up brain, she decided, oh, I'll just kill it
39:43
Speaker 1: and get rid of it. This is a horrible case,
39:46
Speaker 1: and I would want to know all that information in court.
39:48
Speaker 1: To Karen Start, New York psychologist, I mean, I've said
39:52
Speaker 1: this a million times that I don't have stats to
39:55
Speaker 1: back it up. When I was prosecuting, I observed around me.
39:59
Speaker 1: And so this is anecdotal not statistical that when a
40:03
Speaker 1: child was the victim or a baby infant, the case
40:08
Speaker 1: seems to be pled down, like you know, you get
40:11
Speaker 1: involuntary seven years and we'd all know the person would
40:13
Speaker 1: get out in three. Here we've got Brooks, Skyler Richardson
40:17
Speaker 1: on house arrest like it's no big deal. It is
40:23
Speaker 1: a big deal. That's why we're here. We're here to
40:27
Speaker 1: defend those that cannot defend themselves, to speak for those
40:31
Speaker 1: that cannot speak for themselves, like infants, they have just
40:37
Speaker 1: as many rights as we do. Because they have no voice,
40:41
Speaker 1: they get treated differently, and I think it's wrong. I
40:45
Speaker 1: don't think she should be on house arrest. If that
40:48
Speaker 1: child was not still born, it could have been adopted,
40:52
Speaker 1: it could have been given away, it could have been
40:54
Speaker 1: left out a safe haven, anything other than what it got. Karen.
40:58
Speaker 1: Why is this case being treated differently? And I think
41:02
Speaker 1: it's being treated differently because she's a young person and
41:07
Speaker 1: they do believe, just as actually was saying that her
41:11
Speaker 1: brain was not fully developed. You have to look at
41:15
Speaker 1: the fact that the family was clearly complicit in this.
41:19
Speaker 1: How could she possibly have been pregnant and given birth
41:25
Speaker 1: full term. First of all, she gave birth, where was everybody?
41:29
Speaker 1: And there was no evidence that she gave birth. The
41:33
Speaker 1: family was complicit, They knew what was going on, and
41:36
Speaker 1: they decided that they were going to cover up this crime.
41:40
Speaker 1: It is a crime. You cannot kill a baby, and
41:45
Speaker 1: she is being treated very loosely because of that whole image.
41:50
Speaker 1: It's being preserved like as though, well, maybe there was
41:54
Speaker 1: a mistake that happened here, and it's very sad and untrusted.
41:59
Speaker 1: We were talking about brook Skyler Richardson. She was swimming
42:04
Speaker 1: with her cousins and her grandmom's pool when her dad
42:07
Speaker 1: called and said police wanted to talk to her. She
42:10
Speaker 1: goes in, apparently knowing full well what was going on,
42:15
Speaker 1: but seemingly the big concern was that the whispers spreading
42:19
Speaker 1: through their community about had she been pregnant? Okay, why
42:26
Speaker 1: are they more concerned Ashley about did she get pregnant
42:30
Speaker 1: as opposed to being concerned about the dead baby under
42:33
Speaker 1: the barbecue bit. Listen, I don't have any facts about
42:36
Speaker 1: this particular family and community to support what I'm about
42:39
Speaker 1: to say, but this is based on twenty five years
42:42
Speaker 1: of experience dealing with families. Here's the issue in some
42:46
Speaker 1: of these bedroom communities. It is all about appearances and
42:52
Speaker 1: the worst thing in the world, Oh my god, is
42:54
Speaker 1: a teenager got pregnant. That's horrible. That can't happen. And
42:58
Speaker 1: they live in a bubble that they do not pay
43:02
Speaker 1: attention to real world issues, and they would hide it,
43:06
Speaker 1: they would ignore it, they would not want anyone to know.
43:10
Speaker 1: And I would suspect that's this kind of family or community.
43:13
Speaker 1: This may be the worst thing that's ever happened is
43:17
Speaker 1: a teen pregnancy, which you know other teens in that
43:20
Speaker 1: community have been pregnant statistically, I'm sure, but they just
43:26
Speaker 1: live in a bubble. That's unrealistic, well legally speaking, if
43:32
Speaker 1: a baby is still born. Ashley Willcott, I don't believe
43:36
Speaker 1: that there's any grounds for a murder case I would have.
43:39
Speaker 1: I would agree you have to have a live person
43:41
Speaker 1: in order to murder them, so I would agree with you,
43:43
Speaker 1: But I would also submit there are a host of
43:46
Speaker 1: other charges, and the other charges to me, would be
43:49
Speaker 1: a sufficient enough basis to have this person in jail.
43:53
Speaker 1: I agree completely this family was complicit, and I do
43:57
Speaker 1: not believe that house arrest is appropriate, even if the
44:00
Speaker 1: child was still born and then burned and buried in
44:04
Speaker 1: the backyard. This child needs to be in jail, but
44:08
Speaker 1: they're also need to be potential charges against a family member.
44:12
Speaker 1: I do not believe she did this on her own.
44:15
Speaker 1: I still say that, Um, when you have a stillborn child,
44:23
Speaker 1: the child is born dead, so there is no way
44:28
Speaker 1: to murder the child. And therefore, if this child have
44:33
Speaker 1: been born dead, there could not possibly be an aggravated
44:37
Speaker 1: murder charge or even an involuntary murder charge on involuntary Ashley,
44:42
Speaker 1: she would probably if she was conveyed, did she probably
44:45
Speaker 1: get sentenced to ten and serve maybe five maybe and
44:48
Speaker 1: the mind I agree with that, But listen, I think
44:50
Speaker 1: there's got to be other charges. And I don't know
44:52
Speaker 1: that particular state, but um, what she's done to a corpse, right,
44:57
Speaker 1: that's got to be some type of charge. Hiding a
45:00
Speaker 1: body lying. I I don't know that she lied to
45:03
Speaker 1: the police. Maybe she said, oh, look here's the body,
45:06
Speaker 1: but from the facts that I've read, that's not the case. Instead,
45:11
Speaker 1: they had to search the property. So there are other charges.
45:14
Speaker 1: Are they going to be enough to give a lot
45:16
Speaker 1: of years? No, but I would hope that they charge
45:19
Speaker 1: her and anyone else that's complicit with any and every
45:22
Speaker 1: crime that's applicable. And I do not agree with prosecuting
45:26
Speaker 1: women who have steelborn babies, for instance, had a glass
45:30
Speaker 1: of wine or something that many people consider innocuous behavior.
45:36
Speaker 1: Now that's a slippery slope, I know that, But I
45:40
Speaker 1: don't want pregnant mothers to be vilified and mistreated when
45:44
Speaker 1: they have a steelborn child. This is completely different scenario. So,
45:50
Speaker 1: John Linley, where does the case stand now? Well, at
45:53
Speaker 1: the moment of things are sort of in a holding pattern.
45:57
Speaker 1: And in the meantime, it's interesting to out this Cosmopolitan
46:01
Speaker 1: magazine article that has come out. Five thousand words have
46:06
Speaker 1: been devoted to Richardson's case, mostly from her family's perspective,
46:11
Speaker 1: and and some of it honestly is a little bizarre.
46:15
Speaker 1: H here's a little bit of what we learned. Um,
46:18
Speaker 1: while digging her daughter's grave in the backyard, she grabbed
46:23
Speaker 1: a batch of pink sweetheart roses her boyfriend gave her
46:28
Speaker 1: for the prom, and according to the article, she covered
46:32
Speaker 1: her child's body with the flowers before filling in the
46:35
Speaker 1: grave with dirt. Um. Some have called her a baby whisper,
46:40
Speaker 1: which is more than a little ironic. Uh. The article
46:44
Speaker 1: paints Richardson as a teenager who liked to help others,
46:47
Speaker 1: especially children. She was known to uh post on social
46:51
Speaker 1: media when she was working at the local y m
46:55
Speaker 1: c A working with children, Uh, you know, hugging children's
47:00
Speaker 1: perks of the job. And we also learned that she
47:05
Speaker 1: named the baby Annabel was the name that she gave
47:10
Speaker 1: to the to the child before before burying it in
47:14
Speaker 1: the backyard. Wow. What does that signify to you, Karen Start,
47:18
Speaker 1: you're the shrink. Well, it shows you this massive denial
47:22
Speaker 1: that was going on inside of her Nancy because she
47:26
Speaker 1: gave her a name which means she was real, and
47:30
Speaker 1: yet ostensibly allegedly she murdered her. So she murdered little Annabel,
47:37
Speaker 1: and she put roses on her grave and then acted
47:41
Speaker 1: as though nothing had ever happened. I was able to
47:45
Speaker 1: put it in a whole different compartment and go on
47:48
Speaker 1: with her life. And I think just the stigma of
47:52
Speaker 1: the pregnancy and how much it would ruin that perfect image.
47:57
Speaker 1: The kind of town, the kind of environment that she
48:01
Speaker 1: was living in, contributed to this denial and repression of
48:06
Speaker 1: what had happened. It's really horrific. The story is unfolding
48:13
Speaker 1: that there's been a gag order put on the case.
48:15
Speaker 1: We don't know the details. We don't know whether the
48:20
Speaker 1: medical examiner could do what they determined. For instance, we
48:25
Speaker 1: all know that um, when you are trying to find
48:29
Speaker 1: out if the baby was dead or alive at birth,
48:33
Speaker 1: you during autopsy submerged the lungs in water, and if
48:38
Speaker 1: they have air in them, which will become obvious through
48:42
Speaker 1: air bubbles or flotation, you'll know the baby took a breath.
48:46
Speaker 1: It's just that simple. There's a gag order in place.
48:49
Speaker 1: We don't know the answers to that. If the baby
48:51
Speaker 1: was was still born, as it is being argued by
48:54
Speaker 1: the defense, there should not be a murder charge. Possibly
48:58
Speaker 1: tampering with a body are abuse of a courtse but
49:01
Speaker 1: not a murder and that's the end of that. But
49:03
Speaker 1: if there was air in the baby's lungs, that's an
49:08
Speaker 1: entirely different matter. And I believe that this infant, if
49:13
Speaker 1: born alive, has rights the right to live, just like
49:18
Speaker 1: you and I. Again, we're not talking about abortion. Abortion
49:23
Speaker 1: is legal in our country. Murder is not. Nancy Gray's
49:28
Speaker 1: crime story, signing off Goodbye friend,