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Jared Odle on Making & Growing Friendships as a Writer · The Daily Writer

0:27
SPEAKER_04: Hey my friend, welcome to this Saturday edition of the Daily Rider Podcast.
0:31
SPEAKER_04: I'm excited to bring you another conversation in our mental health series for writers.
0:37
SPEAKER_04: The big challenge that we face in our creative work is simply the fact that we work alone much of the time.
0:43
SPEAKER_04: Even if you work with a team on projects that include editors, graphic designers, beta readers, maybe co-authors or collaborators, or marketing people, even if you work with a team that includes some of those folks, you're still spending a large percentage of your time creating alone.
0:57
SPEAKER_04: At least that's the case for me.
0:59
SPEAKER_04: And if you work from home like I do, you can easily isolate yourself from other people who can give you emotional and creative nourishment.
1:07
SPEAKER_04: If the past two years have taught us anything, it's that we need each other.
1:11
SPEAKER_04: You can have all the success in the world, but what's the point if you don't have friends who can share the journey with you?
1:18
SPEAKER_04: Well, my guest today is the perfect person to help us think about how to make and grow our friendships as writers.
1:24
SPEAKER_04: His name is Jared Odal, and he's a missionary, copywriter, and business leader who's working on a book and podcast related to loneliness, and he's also done a lot of research and thinking about this topic.
1:36
SPEAKER_04: Now, I want you to know that Jared and I have been friends for nearly 30 years.
1:40
SPEAKER_04: We went to college together, we staying on a traveling music team together, and I've got stories about him, he's got stories about me, and all that.
1:47
SPEAKER_04: And now we're both heavily engaged in writing as part of our businesses.
1:52
SPEAKER_04: Now, Jared is also a part of our daily writer community, which of course you've heard me talk about on this podcast before.
1:58
SPEAKER_04: And a couple of months ago he led a call for our community on the topic of friendships, and I'm really excited to share this recording with you on today's episode.
2:06
SPEAKER_04: And in this conversation, we discussed why it can be hard for creative people to make friends, and we also share some practical tips for building and growing those friendships.
2:15
SPEAKER_04: Now I know that writers tend to gravitate toward topics like how to write a book or you know the secrets of book marketing or how to build a business and those kind of things.
2:23
SPEAKER_04: And those are all fine and important.
2:25
SPEAKER_04: But on today's episode, we're getting to the heart of what it means to have good relationships and why you need a support system of friends.
2:32
SPEAKER_04: Again, because if you have all the success in the world but you don't have any friends and no joy in your life, then really what's the point?
2:40
SPEAKER_04: So I really enjoyed this conversation and I just consider Jared one of my very best friends in the whole world.
2:46
SPEAKER_04: So I am thrilled to feature this conversation here on this episode.
2:49
SPEAKER_04: So let's get right to the conversation and the discussion with my good friend Jared Odal and the Daily Rider community.
2:56
SPEAKER_04: I am thrilled to have my good friend and our special guest and our daily writer member, Mr.
3:00
SPEAKER_04: Jared Odal.
3:01
SPEAKER_04: So everybody give Jared a warm welcome.
3:05
SPEAKER_04: Sounds kind of weird, like been doing a clap thing, but we're gonna do it anyway.
3:08
SPEAKER_04: So welcome, Jared.
3:10
SPEAKER_04: Thanks for being our uh guest expert today.
3:13
SPEAKER_04: Let me do let me give a quick intro and then we'll dive into our topic for today.
3:16
SPEAKER_04: So Jared and I have been friends since I think 1993.
3:20
SPEAKER_04: We both went to the same small uh Christian college in North St.
3:24
SPEAKER_04: Louis and have been uh great friends ever since.
3:27
SPEAKER_04: We actually traveled on a music team for a year or two together and took a lot of courses together, suffered through four semesters of Greek together, I believe, including final projects and all that kind of stuff.
3:38
SPEAKER_04: And uh I've always known Jared as a very compassionate and empathetic person, but also very smart, uh very theologically wise, and a great writer as well.
3:48
SPEAKER_04: So Jared is a missionary in Ghana, Africa.
3:52
SPEAKER_04: Uh, he's also a copywriter and a business leader, and he's working on some material related to men and loneliness issues.
4:01
SPEAKER_04: And he's actually already written a bunch of stuff on it.
4:03
SPEAKER_04: So uh I've asked him to come on this call to help walk us through these issues of being an artist and a writer and also dealing with friendships and how do we make more friends and how do we combat loneliness and those kinds of issues.
4:16
SPEAKER_04: So, Jared, that's my super long intro.
4:18
SPEAKER_04: Welcome.
4:19
SPEAKER_05: Wow, that was way generous.
4:21
SPEAKER_05: Thank you.
4:23
SPEAKER_05: Totally my pleasure, and it's all true.
4:25
SPEAKER_05: Well, thank you.
4:26
SPEAKER_05: Thanks for having me.
4:27
SPEAKER_05: I I I look forward, I you know, you and I, you've been with me on this journey of talking about loneliness, and it kind of how it snuck up on me.
4:38
SPEAKER_05: And I've been surprised by both how it how important it's been to me and how important it's been to others.
4:46
SPEAKER_05: So I'm glad to just talk about it whenever I can.
4:52
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
4:53
SPEAKER_04: Well, let's dive into this question first of all.
4:56
SPEAKER_04: Um so I thought we would do kind of an interview thing for maybe half of this and then do some QA and and just kind of go with the flow with this topic because it's a little bit of an unusual topic for this group, but I think it's really important because we're not just writers and business people, we're also humans.
5:13
SPEAKER_04: And I don't really believe in the idea of separating business life from personal life.
5:17
SPEAKER_04: I think in idea in an ideal world, if you have clients, you should have a friendly relationship with clients.
5:23
SPEAKER_04: And I I just sort of look at life as one holistic combined thing.
5:28
SPEAKER_04: Um and friendships are an important part of that.
5:32
SPEAKER_04: So I guess my first question is why is this topic so important to you?
5:37
SPEAKER_04: Why is it that you are you've devoted a lot of time to thinking and writing about it?
5:41
SPEAKER_04: You'll do even more of that in the next few years.
5:44
SPEAKER_04: I know you've are thinking about books and podcasts and other kinds of things.
5:48
SPEAKER_04: What is it about this topic that really speaks to your heart so closely?
5:53
SPEAKER_05: So it like I mentioned, it kind of surprised me.
5:57
SPEAKER_05: Uh, what happened is I was working in trying to figure out my copywriting niche.
6:02
SPEAKER_05: I really wanted to be, you know, I studied copywriting and I was knew I needed to boil down and got to that point of I need to boil down or burn this thing.
6:13
SPEAKER_05: And I wasn't ready to burn it.
6:14
SPEAKER_05: I I knew I knew I needed to write.
6:16
SPEAKER_05: So I'm looking through and I'm trying to figure out stuff.
6:19
SPEAKER_05: And I'm so I'm well, you know me.
6:21
SPEAKER_05: I'm nerdy enough that I'm trying to read.
6:23
SPEAKER_05: Well, I'm not trying to read, I'm reading everything that's out there, too much, right?
6:27
SPEAKER_05: And so I'm reading through some health stuff and uh drawing a little bit towards mental health kind of things.
6:35
SPEAKER_05: And I ran across this article about loneliness and about how men, there's like this epidemic of loneliness.
6:43
SPEAKER_05: This was pre-pandemic, right?
6:45
SPEAKER_05: This is right before the pandemic.
6:47
SPEAKER_04: Um, it's way worse now.
6:49
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, it's it's it's there's the the statics are really crazy, and it grabbed me.
6:56
SPEAKER_05: Uh, it was an article but written in the Boston Herald I ran across online, and it was just talking about how men struggle with making friendships overall in general.
7:06
SPEAKER_05: Men men have this problem.
7:08
SPEAKER_05: And I was like, oh, I get that because, well, I'm a guy, um, I'm a I'm a writer, which puts me in uh I have a lonely profession, right?
7:19
SPEAKER_05: And as a missionary, right?
7:20
SPEAKER_05: You know, I live cross-culturally.
7:22
SPEAKER_05: I I intentionally live with people who are not like me, and that makes another whole set of issues.
7:28
SPEAKER_05: Um, I'm not I don't really fit in anywhere, you know.
7:31
SPEAKER_05: My home culture, um, I I fit with in some ways, but not a hundred percent because I've been really changed by where I'm at the last you know, 15 years.
7:41
SPEAKER_05: But I don't really fit here in a lot of ways because I'm not from here, you know.
7:46
SPEAKER_05: And um and so it really resonated with me personally.
7:52
SPEAKER_05: And as I start talking with people, uh, well, then I want to get into the data, and it's like an astonishing deal.
8:00
SPEAKER_05: Like being lonely, chronic loneliness is like smoking a pack of cigarettes every day.
8:06
SPEAKER_05: That's the health effect, and so you tie that into can't, I mean, literally, cancer and heart rates, you know, heart disease and um and mental health.
8:17
SPEAKER_05: Uh, on top of that, we usually think about the mental health, but it's a physical thing as well.
8:22
SPEAKER_05: We're you mentioned before, we're a full being.
8:25
SPEAKER_05: And this this whole thing of being lonely and chronic loneliness is it's a real problem for us physically.
8:33
SPEAKER_05: So that's a real thing for men.
8:36
SPEAKER_05: Um, I think that for men, there is a in Western culture, there's a disenfranchisement of where do we even belong?
8:46
SPEAKER_05: Because you've got the whole, you know, cultural of toxic neck masculinity stuff, and everybody talks about that.
8:52
SPEAKER_05: And then you've got the no, I'm gonna be a redneck, no matter what kind of stuff going on, and you know, everything in between.
9:00
SPEAKER_05: Um, we get into gender issues of uh, you know, people changing genders and gender fluidity, and what's it mean to be a man?
9:10
SPEAKER_05: I think a lot of people are asking that question, and we've we've seen some people addressing that, but then I get looked at it from another culture, you know, over here in Ghana, and I was talking with one of my friends here, and I said, you know, we've got this problem, and in Ghana's just sharing some of this data.
9:27
SPEAKER_05: He goes, Well, in fact, Zach was I was just meeting with Zach before I jumped on, and um, Zach just left.
9:35
SPEAKER_05: He told me a year ago, he said, you know, Jared, you're my best friend because I can talk to you about things I can't talk to about people in my own culture.
9:43
SPEAKER_05: And it was really interesting, it opened my eyes up to the fact that it's men everywhere that are dealing with a lot of these changes.
9:52
SPEAKER_05: On loneliness in general, though, uh, let me let me go back even further because in here here, it's not just us dudes hanging out.
10:00
SPEAKER_05: Somebody also watches recording.
10:02
SPEAKER_05: The interesting thing about loneliness is it hits men early on, um, not being able to find a place to fit and whatnot.
10:09
SPEAKER_05: It affects women a lot later in life because they generally outlive everybody.
10:15
SPEAKER_05: And so that is true, you know, you live longer than we do.
10:19
SPEAKER_05: Um, and but it it the health effects are the same for both of us.
10:24
SPEAKER_05: So even in looking at this uh this chronic loneliness issue, um, that's a deal.
10:30
SPEAKER_05: Um, you get into the pandemic stuff, the lockdown, we've seen how that affected mental health.
10:36
SPEAKER_05: You know, uh suicide rates went up, child abuse, female females were abused by men more because uh they they were thrown into the situation they we aren't emotionally healthy enough to handle a lot of.
10:50
SPEAKER_05: This goes back to a lot of emotional health, and there's a lot of baggage stuff and cultural stuff and that self-identity stuff that go into all these things.
10:58
SPEAKER_05: Um, and then you put on masks and we can't read body language.
11:04
SPEAKER_05: That's been a big deal.
11:05
SPEAKER_05: That's really what's affecting children in schools a lot.
11:08
SPEAKER_05: I know, you know, wherever you fall on all of this, I'm not I'm not saying one thing is right or wrong or left or right.
11:15
SPEAKER_05: Just the fact is that's what it is.
11:18
SPEAKER_05: Even even Zoom meetings like this, this takes more energy than sitting with someone face to face.
11:25
SPEAKER_05: In fact, um, studies are showing that you are actually better off to talk to somebody on the phone than you are to have a Zoom meeting.
11:34
SPEAKER_05: Like that takes less pressure, and you actually learn and retain more with a phone call because of the auditory, you only have one sense that you're focusing on.
11:44
SPEAKER_05: With Zoom, you know, I'm trying to figure out can, you know, I'm trying to play the I'm I'm a speaker, so I'm I'm used to speaking as you can tell a little bit, maybe.
11:52
SPEAKER_05: And so I'm trying to figure out okay, am I cluing in with Jim, with Jeff, with MJ, you know, because that's that's how we communicate.
12:00
SPEAKER_05: Uh, you know, depending on the study you read, 70, 80, 90% of what we communicate is non-verbal.
12:06
SPEAKER_05: But when you throw this two-layer, not a 3D, not am I really reading them right?
12:12
SPEAKER_05: Or is that just, you know, the light bouncing off of the background in the wrong way?
12:16
SPEAKER_05: Or are they just nodding their head because they're trying to make me feel good?
12:20
SPEAKER_05: You know, all that stuff is an inner dialogue and it takes a lot of energy.
12:25
SPEAKER_05: And Zoom is actually harder to deal with than in life and in person.
12:29
SPEAKER_05: So all those things, that's a long answer, but all those things go into why not only did it pique my interest, but it continues to pique my interest.
12:39
SPEAKER_05: The more you read from the CDC and the UK has a whole thing on this as well, some really big government research things.
12:47
SPEAKER_05: This is not going away anytime soon.
12:49
SPEAKER_05: Um, the way our culture is moving and hyper-individualism, it's a huge deal for us to figure out how to deal with loneliness.
12:59
SPEAKER_05: Um, what it 80, 90% of us are naturally introverted anyway.
13:04
SPEAKER_05: So, how we get our energy is not by being with people or it's with being with the right people in the right context.
13:11
SPEAKER_05: And we don't know how to deal with that well.
13:13
SPEAKER_05: So all those reasons, plus probably a hundred more and come up with, you know, nerdy me, but those are a few reasons why this is important to me.
13:21
SPEAKER_04: Well, that lays a really, really good foundation to help us understand this.
13:25
SPEAKER_04: You know, this this has a social component, it has a biological component, has a mental and emotional component.
13:31
SPEAKER_04: So it looks like this really intersects with every area of our of our lives.
13:37
SPEAKER_04: So let me ask um everybody on the call, what are the signs and symptoms of loneliness for you?
13:44
SPEAKER_04: How do you know when you're lonely?
13:47
SPEAKER_04: Because, you know, until really we started talking about doing this call probably, you know, three or four weeks ago or something, Jared.
13:54
SPEAKER_04: I had never really thought about it.
13:55
SPEAKER_04: How do I know when I feel lonely?
13:57
SPEAKER_04: As an introvert who gets my energy from being alone, I don't know if I if I really know when I'm lonely or not.
14:04
SPEAKER_04: But I mean, sometimes I am, of course, as anybody would be.
14:07
SPEAKER_04: But but for the rest of you, how do you know when you're feeling lonely?
14:11
SPEAKER_04: What what does that feel like to you?
14:12
SPEAKER_04: What is what is that experience like?
14:16
SPEAKER_02: I've never thought about that, Kent.
14:18
SPEAKER_02: Honestly, I really haven't.
14:20
SPEAKER_02: Um I would say typically lacking connection with others, though, is the best answer I've got.
14:30
SPEAKER_02: Um that's part of why I'm, you know, why I'm I want to be part of this community.
14:35
SPEAKER_02: I know it's too easy to pull apart and like literally live in my own little bubble.
14:40
SPEAKER_02: So a fair minimum, I get to see you guys, you know, once a week.
14:45
SPEAKER_02: Um, and just scheduling those intentional times to connect versus uh, you know, basically only doing it when it when somebody else is proactive.
14:59
SPEAKER_02: Um, being being reactive and proactive.
15:03
SPEAKER_02: Like I realized over the last few months I've probably been more lonely because I quit doing my podcast.
15:09
SPEAKER_02: I wasn't interviewing anybody.
15:11
SPEAKER_02: And that right there, I started my podcast to fight depression because I know it's tied with loneliness, like isolation, loneliness, and depression are like all on the track.
15:22
SPEAKER_02: Like it's like it's like a roller coaster, and it's just they're all like stops on the on the track for me personally.
15:30
SPEAKER_04: Do you do you feel it?
15:32
SPEAKER_04: Go ahead, Jared.
15:33
SPEAKER_05: Oh, I was just gonna jump in and say, you are not alone and not even knowing when you're not lonely.
15:38
SPEAKER_05: Like it's amazing when I sit and talk to guys and they're like, Well, what do you mean loneliness is a problem?
15:44
SPEAKER_05: I'm like, well, so because of the way we're wired and conditioned, all right, it's a both, it's a both and, right?
15:52
SPEAKER_05: You know, that we can live segmented a little bit here than women.
15:55
SPEAKER_05: Now, I think women have, I'm I'm not, I'm just making a blanket statement here.
16:00
SPEAKER_05: I'm not trying to put everybody, you know, all that kind of stuff.
16:03
SPEAKER_05: But but the point is also because of our conditioning, we don't even know when we're lonely.
16:09
SPEAKER_05: And we don't know when we need people, we don't know how to ask for that either.
16:15
SPEAKER_05: And we feel like there's some permission, um, even with our friends.
16:20
SPEAKER_05: You know, sometimes I feel like, man, I really wish I could talk to someone, and I I'm not even sure I should pick up the phone and call them, right?
16:28
SPEAKER_05: And I know I could here, but it it's a it's a dynamic that I think we don't have a language for.
16:36
SPEAKER_05: Well, you know, men don't nor naturally we don't have the emotional words to use, especially with each other, um, and connecting with one another.
16:47
SPEAKER_05: So you're not alone in that.
16:48
SPEAKER_05: I just wanted to throw that out there that you are totally normal, which may not be good news, may not be bad news, but you're just like totally normal.
16:57
SPEAKER_05: So, hey, we're all in this thing together.
16:59
SPEAKER_05: I feel the same way, so I'm with you.
17:01
SPEAKER_05: Appreciate that.
17:03
SPEAKER_02: You know what, Kent?
17:04
SPEAKER_02: I just realized something when Jared was talking, though.
17:06
SPEAKER_02: When I find myself scrolling Facebook, looking for something, and I don't know what, that's really me looking for some form of connection, yeah, is what that is, or insta or whatever, pick your vice, right?
17:20
SPEAKER_02: I'm really looking for that, you know, some form of hey, validation, acceptance, community, whatever, probably even all the above, right?
17:33
SPEAKER_04: I would love to to hear, not to put you on the spot, MJ, but I would love to hear your perspective as a female about about anything, you know, maybe females in general, how how how you interface with this loneliness issue or uh your experience, anything that you might want to share?
17:50
SPEAKER_01: So I was as as we were all talking and I'm listening to everybody, something that really stood out to me.
17:57
SPEAKER_01: So I've done a lot of work with veterans and a lot of work with veterans that have PTSD, a lot of families that have lost a veteran's PTSD, um, something very near and dear to my heart.
18:07
SPEAKER_01: So I've been involved with a lot of different veteran organizations.
18:10
SPEAKER_01: And it's really funny because I think I want to say this is going back probably about 10 years ago.
18:16
SPEAKER_01: We were sitting at an American Legion and we're having a conversation.
18:19
SPEAKER_01: And I had two guys there that were, you know, in Vietnam and a much older gentleman, and some of the younger guys from Afghanistan were all talking.
18:28
SPEAKER_01: And as I listened to them, a lot of these guys had families, right?
18:34
SPEAKER_01: They they had active support systems or what should have been support systems at home, but they didn't feel connected.
18:42
SPEAKER_01: They felt lonely and they were surrounded by people.
18:46
SPEAKER_01: I mean, the the young guys from Afghanistan had children at home, you know.
18:49
SPEAKER_01: So they've got a wife, they've got children, you know, mom is coming in and out, and and kid activities that they're running to.
18:55
SPEAKER_01: So they're with people.
18:56
SPEAKER_01: It wasn't necessarily for them a situation of that they were by themselves.
19:00
SPEAKER_01: It was more a situation of that, like Jared was kind of saying, that person that you're gonna pick the phone up, and they're actually gonna understand and and kind of bridge that gap between you being alone and and putting that hand out and being like, I'm there with you.
19:17
SPEAKER_01: Let's let's let's have this conversation.
19:19
SPEAKER_01: I'm totally there with you.
19:20
SPEAKER_01: So I think, I mean, I don't want to say that it's the quality of the person that you reach out to, but but you know, it kind of is though, isn't it?
19:29
SPEAKER_01: It kind of is, right?
19:30
SPEAKER_01: Because not that it somebody would be a lower quality, but just that connection would be something that would be more quality for you in that moment of needing connection versus just anybody will do.
19:42
SPEAKER_01: So I think that that's you know, something I I find with men that that is definitely something that seems to be harder for them to find in in in a counterpart.
19:55
SPEAKER_01: Um for females, I don't find that that's as hard, but females I just feel like are kind of almost the opposite.
20:02
SPEAKER_01: There's just noise.
20:03
SPEAKER_01: There's always noise, there's always like what does that mean?
20:07
SPEAKER_01: They're always moving, they're always making noise.
20:10
SPEAKER_01: And so for me, as somebody like Kent, who I love the quiet, I could sit in quiet for days.
20:16
SPEAKER_01: If you were like Melissa, you can get to go on vacation for six weeks now and you don't have to talk to anybody, I'd be like, oh my gosh, it's like my dream vacation.
20:24
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, it's for me, I really derive a lot of my energy from being in the quiet and being by myself.
20:30
SPEAKER_01: And for females, with that noise, I think there's got to be some sort of balance between knowing how to be quiet and still, and and having that friendship that can help you in those moments.
20:45
SPEAKER_01: So I don't I think females don't understand the balance of it.
20:48
SPEAKER_01: Whereas men are the opposite, they don't have any balance, they stay completely away and they don't know how to make the connection.
20:53
SPEAKER_01: But females might have too much connection and it's too much noise.
20:56
SPEAKER_01: So I don't know, that's my my two cents.
21:00
SPEAKER_05: MJ, can I follow up on that?
21:02
SPEAKER_05: Because I think that it seems to me, it's just seems to me, all right, that you know, women have an easier time in general of connecting all these different parts of life.
21:18
SPEAKER_05: Like it's not quite as siloed, right?
21:22
SPEAKER_05: And oh, did I freeze?
21:24
SPEAKER_04: No, you're good.
21:31
SPEAKER_01: Maybe he can't.
21:34
SPEAKER_02: On his side.
21:35
SPEAKER_02: Am I still there?
21:36
SPEAKER_05: You're still here, yeah.
21:37
SPEAKER_05: We can hear you.
21:38
SPEAKER_05: Okay, am I back now?
21:39
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
21:41
SPEAKER_05: Okay.
21:42
SPEAKER_05: Oh, well, I couldn't even hear you, so I stopped.
21:45
SPEAKER_05: All right.
21:46
SPEAKER_05: So, anyway, what my observation is that we can tend as men to silo ourselves a little bit more.
21:55
SPEAKER_05: And with women, the noise is oh, there's this connection, that connection, that connection.
22:00
SPEAKER_05: That connection, everything's on the table all the time, and there's all these different connection points, and it's natural, and you can bebop around, and that's kind of there.
22:08
SPEAKER_05: And some men are that way.
22:10
SPEAKER_05: I mean, like conversationally.
22:11
SPEAKER_05: I can carry on a conversation like that, but it doesn't necessarily mean I'm connecting.
22:17
SPEAKER_05: You know, a conversation doesn't mean I'm connecting.
22:19
SPEAKER_05: It can be, like you said, just popcorn wild.
22:22
SPEAKER_01: Right.
22:23
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I agree with that 100%.
22:26
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I find that with my my husband's always saying, you know, you make friends so much easier than I do.
22:30
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, no, I'm friendly.
22:32
SPEAKER_01: I don't make friends.
22:33
SPEAKER_01: There's a big difference.
22:37
SPEAKER_01: It doesn't mean I like and want to spend time with all these people.
22:40
SPEAKER_01: I'm just a friendly person, you know.
22:42
SPEAKER_01: But he's like, no, this is so easy for you.
22:44
SPEAKER_01: It's very, very different.
22:45
SPEAKER_01: Because for him, it's like, no, I've got, but I got my guy friends.
22:48
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, okay, but we live like, you know, 14 hours from them now.
22:53
SPEAKER_01: You ever want to go out with a guy around here?
22:55
SPEAKER_01: No.
22:57
SPEAKER_01: Just gonna stay with me all the time?
22:58
SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
23:00
SPEAKER_01: But so it's very different for men.
23:02
SPEAKER_01: He definitely sees it a lot, you know, in a in a much different way than I do.
23:08
SPEAKER_04: Let me throw out a question.
23:10
SPEAKER_04: Um, nobody has to answer this if you don't want to, but I do think it's an interesting question.
23:15
SPEAKER_04: So something that we've talked about in our house a lot is um, and I'm probably not saying anything inappropriate, I don't think, but something that my that my son struggles with.
23:26
SPEAKER_04: And part of this may be because he's a teenager, I don't know.
23:29
SPEAKER_04: But um, he struggles with the idea that um when he connects with somebody, he worries immediately that that person doesn't like him.
23:37
SPEAKER_04: It's like there's just a real concern that, well, they don't, why would they want to be my friend?
23:41
SPEAKER_04: And it's an automatic kind of negative assumption of why would this person want to be my friend?
23:47
SPEAKER_04: Whereas I think the opposite.
23:49
SPEAKER_04: I just and and this is not an ego an egotistical thing at all.
23:54
SPEAKER_04: I think part of it is maybe just my age, and I'm just kind of a half-class fool type of a person, I guess.
24:00
SPEAKER_04: But I just automatically think, well, why wouldn't they want to be my friend?
24:03
SPEAKER_04: I just can like consider everybody a friend.
24:05
SPEAKER_04: Now I have a few, I have a handful of like really close friends, like anybody would, but I just kind of assume the opposite.
24:12
SPEAKER_04: How do you all think about that?
24:13
SPEAKER_04: Whenever you connect with somebody new, do you what goes on in your mind about how you're going to relate with that person?
24:21
SPEAKER_04: Do you assume, hey, this is gonna be a good friend, let's chat, let's connect, they're gonna like me, or is is there is there kind of a struggle that goes on there?
24:32
SPEAKER_04: Or maybe some of both.
24:34
SPEAKER_04: I don't know.
24:35
SPEAKER_01: I think part of that MJ, please, sorry.
24:38
SPEAKER_01: Sorry, I'm sorry, Jim.
24:39
SPEAKER_01: No, um, part of that I think is a teen thing, too, because you know, what I see that with my son too.
24:46
SPEAKER_01: He he's a guy, and like Jared was saying, sometimes you guys don't have the words, just like my son is feeling inadequate.
24:54
SPEAKER_01: Probably 95% of the boys he's coming against are feeling that same inadequacy, but nobody's talking about it.
25:01
SPEAKER_01: We don't discuss that because that somehow diminishes your personal strength or it diminishes your cool factor, you know.
25:08
SPEAKER_01: So for a kid level, I think, or a teenage level, I think it's a there's some extra going on at the teenage level.
25:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm sure there is, you know, for adults.
25:17
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
25:18
SPEAKER_01: I always feel inadequate, so it's hard for me.
25:21
SPEAKER_01: I'm always like, I don't know, this person wants to talk to me, they're so successful.
25:25
SPEAKER_01: Why?
25:25
SPEAKER_01: I'm a hot mess.
25:26
SPEAKER_01: Like that's that's how I feel all the time.
25:28
SPEAKER_02: So I think Ken, a lot of that is completely natural to um what Ben's thinking versus you, um, to an extent.
25:40
SPEAKER_02: But I would say, you know, that's as a person, as individual.
25:46
SPEAKER_02: But when you shift it on, hey, we both like Minecraft or video games or writing or basketball or whatever, fill in the blank, you know, music, whatever.
25:58
SPEAKER_02: Um that's where it becomes a whole lot easier.
26:02
SPEAKER_02: The focus isn't on you and do they like, you know, me kind of thing, where it's like, um, because if that's the game, I I'm like, I can't assume anything.
26:13
SPEAKER_02: I really, I just want to come in kind of like blank slate.
26:17
SPEAKER_02: And I really I I don't I don't think any expectations really, I'm kind of like I don't know.
26:24
SPEAKER_02: But if you if you kind of shift the focus on, hey, we should, you know, play basketball together, or hey, let's play this game, or hey, let's chat about movies, or whatever, I feel like that moves the focus on the you know, what you discuss.
26:39
SPEAKER_02: But again, this kind of does come back to what Jared's saying, where it's like, look, most of that's gonna be surface level, compartmentalized.
26:48
SPEAKER_02: Here's softball guy, here's you know, church friend, here's whoever friend.
26:54
SPEAKER_02: Um I think that's what most men would do.
26:59
SPEAKER_02: I again I can't speak for women, so I but I I think that uh we also one of the problems is talking about a quick note to Jeff.
27:15
SPEAKER_05: Hey Jeff, don't worry.
27:16
SPEAKER_05: Stop jumping however you want to go.
27:18
SPEAKER_05: No, so good.
27:19
SPEAKER_05: You know, we can we can read, so we're we're good.
27:22
SPEAKER_05: However you jump in is cool.
27:24
SPEAKER_05: We're just glad you're here.
27:26
SPEAKER_05: I'm back on the broadcast.
27:27
SPEAKER_05: Um I hey there you are.
27:32
SPEAKER_05: So I I think that the hard part is that in every friendship, it's like we bring all of who we are, all our warts, right?
27:41
SPEAKER_05: And so we've got a lot of x when you really get into this, um, you're kind of bringing in your family, right?
27:48
SPEAKER_05: Your family life, you know, all your insecurities that you pick up from that you inherit from your family, and then your own neurosis of being your own self, right?
27:57
SPEAKER_05: You add that on top.
27:59
SPEAKER_05: And um for a lot of us, I think it's normal.
28:04
SPEAKER_05: Uh, for okay, for for introverted people, I think that there's a segment of us with maybe even let me just take that out.
28:12
SPEAKER_05: It's not introvert extrovert, it's more of a do I have low self-esteem or not, right?
28:19
SPEAKER_05: That for whatever reason, because there can be a lot of factors into how we wind up with with a low self-esteem, um, where we aren't we don't have a healthy view of ourself, right?
28:32
SPEAKER_05: And I don't mean that as the overly positive rah-rah, sis boomba, everybody's good thing, right?
28:39
SPEAKER_05: I just mean that we don't have a realistic view of ourself that we actually look down on ourself before anyone else has a chance to.
28:48
SPEAKER_05: And there are a lot of ways that that can happen.
28:51
SPEAKER_05: And I think people with low self-esteem are probably so friendship is kind of like choosing your own family.
28:58
SPEAKER_05: And, you know, the the friendliness, which is kind of like dating your friend, right?
29:03
SPEAKER_05: You you're friendly on whether it's like, okay, we're gonna talk about Minecraft, or we're gonna talk about books, or you know, we're writers, you know, so that's safe.
29:12
SPEAKER_05: Um, but as we get to know someone, there is a spark.
29:16
SPEAKER_05: Like you aren't friends with somebody you don't like or you don't have a lot of things in common with.
29:21
SPEAKER_05: And the lifelong friends, like MJ, you mentioned your husband having, I have with Kent, it is kind of like a commitment.
29:30
SPEAKER_05: It's this long-term commitment that doesn't really matter if they're 14 hours away, or I live in Ghana, he lives in St.
29:37
SPEAKER_05: Louis.
29:38
SPEAKER_05: Like, we are friends.
29:39
SPEAKER_05: That's just it's part of it, and we have to work at that, right?
29:43
SPEAKER_05: Um, and he is part of my family.
29:46
SPEAKER_05: Like that, that is that is how I look at you know, friends are kind of like that second family that you choose.
29:52
SPEAKER_05: Sometimes, and and the cool thing is, is you get to choose what kind of a family you want at that point.
29:58
SPEAKER_05: But with those of us with the low self-esteem, I think we we can enter into that whole, man, maybe they won't like me.
30:05
SPEAKER_05: And it that's a hard thing to overcome, but it is the process of friendship that changes that.
30:12
SPEAKER_05: And that's that's the ironic thing, is whenever someone affirms us for who we are, warts and all, as a friend, we can start to come out of that.
30:20
SPEAKER_05: But it is a it's a challenge.
30:24
SPEAKER_04: So maybe it would be good to let's let's maybe talk about some practical things that we can do to build some friendships.
30:32
SPEAKER_04: And I like to analyze things, I can analyze things all day, but at the end of the day, sometimes it's hard for me to actually do something based on that analysis.
30:41
SPEAKER_04: We can get stuck in that mode.
30:42
SPEAKER_04: At least I can do it really, really easy.
30:45
SPEAKER_04: So, what are some things?
30:46
SPEAKER_04: Um, let me toss this question to Jared first, and I would love to open it up and just hear what are some things that you're doing to actually build your friendships and your relationships in life?
30:55
SPEAKER_04: Practical things we can do.
30:57
SPEAKER_04: Most most of us here probably identify as introverts.
31:00
SPEAKER_05: All right.
31:00
SPEAKER_05: So I think the first thing is deciding, yeah.
31:08
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I I think the first thing is decide to be friendly.
31:11
SPEAKER_05: And that that sounds really weird, but that's actually that's actually a really good insight.
31:17
SPEAKER_05: Like if you decide you're gonna be a friendly, generous, grateful person all the time, like if everyone you meet, waitress, if you're gonna hop on a call, whenever you pick up the phone, smile and talk, if you will decide that you are going to be a friendly person, you immediately make yourself um receptive to a friendship, a potential friendship.
31:44
SPEAKER_05: Now, and and I think the other thing as an as as an introvert is we don't have to be best friends with everyone.
31:51
SPEAKER_05: I think we're all old enough to know that now, but maybe not.
31:56
SPEAKER_05: But let me take the pressure off of you.
31:57
SPEAKER_05: You don't have to be everybody's best friend, right?
32:00
SPEAKER_05: Those expectations, you can have the softball buddy.
32:03
SPEAKER_05: That's great, it's not a problem.
32:05
SPEAKER_05: Um, but don't stop there.
32:08
SPEAKER_05: The the problem I think a lot of us have, so the third practical thing I would I would say is okay, start by being friendly to everybody.
32:17
SPEAKER_05: Say it's okay, identify where you have friends who who move past just the acquaintance-friendly thing, who you've got some people you can rely on in certain areas of your life.
32:29
SPEAKER_05: That's a great thing.
32:30
SPEAKER_05: But I think we need to have, you know, whether it's the old who's gonna who's gonna be there to carry you to the grave kind of thing, or who are the three or four people that you're really close to, your best friends.
32:42
SPEAKER_05: And it's not you don't need to have one best friend, you know, just like your spouse isn't gonna understand everything about you.
32:49
SPEAKER_05: Um, that that if you haven't figured that out by now, sorry to pop that little mystery bubble, but they 100%.
32:56
SPEAKER_04: 26 years I've been trying to figure this out.
32:58
SPEAKER_04: Now you tell me this.
33:00
SPEAKER_05: Oh, well, I'm glad, glad to be here.
33:02
SPEAKER_04: Doesn't understand everything.
33:03
SPEAKER_04: No, you can't understand everything about somebody else.
33:06
SPEAKER_05: Exactly.
33:07
SPEAKER_05: I mean, it's it's literally impossible to start thinking about it, but sometimes as a when we're younger, we kind of have that expectation.
33:16
SPEAKER_05: I think that goes with that low self-esteem and that young teenage thing we were talking about.
33:20
SPEAKER_05: So as we're talking with younger people, we should like coach that into them really soon.
33:25
SPEAKER_05: Like, hey, you're not gonna be best friends with everyone, don't even try it.
33:29
SPEAKER_05: But do commit to having a few people, and so when you're doing that, it means you're gonna have to set friendship dates, right?
33:36
SPEAKER_05: Like you need to talk.
33:38
SPEAKER_05: Like if it's get on the phone.
33:40
SPEAKER_05: I've got a friend that uh we talk once a month.
33:43
SPEAKER_05: Um, we're high school buddies.
33:45
SPEAKER_05: I had fallen out of contact with them a long time.
33:48
SPEAKER_05: Um, but now we we we schedule time once a month.
33:51
SPEAKER_05: Um and and set some dates like that.
33:55
SPEAKER_05: Do uh one really great, there's a there's a book, um, it's out of print, but you know, we're all book people.
34:02
SPEAKER_05: But if you can find this book, you've got the dustiness.
34:05
SPEAKER_05: Uh John Townsend is one of these he's he's is a Christian writer, uh psychologist, part of the guys who founded Minrith Meyer.
34:14
SPEAKER_05: But he wrote this book, How to Be a Best Friend for Ever.
34:17
SPEAKER_05: It's the only one like it I've ever seen.
34:19
SPEAKER_05: Full of practical, practical things.
34:21
SPEAKER_05: He talks about doing a friendship audit.
34:24
SPEAKER_05: Sit down and say, Hey, that's cool, Kent, how am I doing with being your friend?
34:29
SPEAKER_05: Or, like if there's a group of three or four guys, he said, you know, it was hard.
34:34
SPEAKER_05: Like, because he he related some stories where they said, you know, you you've been too busy for me lately.
34:41
SPEAKER_05: Like I we feel disconnected from you.
34:43
SPEAKER_05: Like you're spending too much time on this, or I think you've got out of focus.
34:47
SPEAKER_05: But that audit, this is where you know you have a good friend, right?
34:51
SPEAKER_05: Where you the Bible talks about this, you know, uh other whatever other religions that you've been involved with.
34:58
SPEAKER_05: We we have these ideas of friendship, you know.
35:01
SPEAKER_05: In the Bible, it's David and Jonathan, that's a bigger cultural thing as well.
35:05
SPEAKER_05: Or whether it's Batman and Robin, right?
35:07
SPEAKER_05: We've got these duos of people, right?
35:11
SPEAKER_05: Or or Tonto and the Lone Ranger, even, you know, but Lewis and Clark, like we pair people, but I don't know that we become vulnerable enough where we really do friendship audits.
35:22
SPEAKER_05: But that's an indication that you're ready to really have a long-term commitment and keep that healthy both ways.
35:30
SPEAKER_05: So that's a practical thing I'd throw out there.
35:32
SPEAKER_05: Say, hey, how am I doing as a friend?
35:34
SPEAKER_05: I want to do a friendship audit.
35:35
SPEAKER_05: I want you to say the hard things, right?
35:37
SPEAKER_05: Like we talk about 90%, like everybody talks about the 90% of things that's easy to talk about.
35:44
SPEAKER_05: Tell me the 10% that you're uncomfortable with.
35:47
SPEAKER_05: I want to grow.
35:48
SPEAKER_05: Um, so those are some things I'd I'd throw out there.
35:51
SPEAKER_05: Um, there's a lot of other things, but I think that's that's some to start with.
35:57
SPEAKER_04: That's really good stuff.
35:58
SPEAKER_04: Wow.
36:02
SPEAKER_04: Thoughts and anybody have any thoughts, responses to that?
36:05
SPEAKER_04: Um, other things you'd like to throw in there?
36:09
SPEAKER_02: Just from hearing Jared, though, I think the one other part of the component the component is you have to.
36:15
SPEAKER_02: I mean, he he mentioned it like, hey, once a month I talk to so and so.
36:19
SPEAKER_02: Um, you have to be in contact, you have to be in that constant communication, otherwise your friends can basically become distant acquaintances, frankly.
36:34
SPEAKER_02: And you know, that line is as blurry as ever.
36:37
SPEAKER_02: But I like what Jared said, especially like tell me the 10% that you're not telling everybody.
36:43
SPEAKER_02: Um, that's really cool because that's almost like a litmus test.
36:47
SPEAKER_02: Like, hey, if that actually pushes them away, well, maybe they're more of an acquaintance versus a friend that'll stick with me.
36:56
SPEAKER_02: And yeah, it's scary to put yourself out there and it hurts a little bit.
37:00
SPEAKER_02: But in the long haul, you're gonna grow, you're gonna be able to find you know a friend that you know, you have to put yourself out there to have a friend.
37:07
SPEAKER_02: It's a two-way street, right?
37:09
SPEAKER_04: Yep.
37:12
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and I think Jared, what you said about uh make the decision to be a friendly person.
37:18
SPEAKER_04: Man, that is so critical.
37:20
SPEAKER_04: That's really, really critical.
37:23
SPEAKER_04: Because if we're not friendly and approachable, if we don't have a positive demeanor, then people don't really want to be around us.
37:30
SPEAKER_04: You know, we either have an energy that we put out that's positive and that that attracts people, or we have an energy that repels people.
37:38
SPEAKER_04: And, you know, all of us know people who are like both of those things.
37:42
SPEAKER_04: And I think sometimes all of us have both of those things.
37:47
SPEAKER_04: You know, obviously we want to be more of the person who's attracting others, but all of us at times have energy where we're repelling people, we're irritable or cranky or whatever.
37:55
SPEAKER_04: So I I just love this idea if you can decide to be a friendly person.
38:01
SPEAKER_04: That's I think that that's like worth the whole thing right there.
38:05
SPEAKER_04: Is making the decision to to put forth positive energy that attracts people.
38:11
SPEAKER_05: Well, and think about okay, so get even more practical.
38:15
SPEAKER_05: How do you become friendly with people in your own home?
38:19
SPEAKER_05: Because we all face it.
38:20
SPEAKER_04: I don't want to go there.
38:21
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I know, I know.
38:22
SPEAKER_05: Meaning you're also 10%, right?
38:24
SPEAKER_05: We don't want to talk about that.
38:26
SPEAKER_04: That's too personal.
38:30
SPEAKER_04: Somebody I read somewhere.
38:31
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, but like I choose sometimes.
38:35
SPEAKER_05: Go ahead.
38:36
SPEAKER_04: I was just gonna mention this has been years ago.
38:38
SPEAKER_04: I saw in a book somewhere, I don't remember what the name of the book was, but this one little insight in this book really was helpful to me.
38:47
SPEAKER_04: And they were talking about I think the book was called Daddy's Home, and it was it was really geared toward dads who have smaller kids at home.
38:56
SPEAKER_04: And he was making the point that the first five minutes when you get home from work is so critical, and that five minutes sets the tone for the whole rest of the evening with your family, and it's true, it's really true.
39:08
SPEAKER_04: And I was like, Oh my gosh, wow.
39:11
SPEAKER_04: I would come home, you know, from teaching college all day, and I would be kind of cranky and irritable and moody.
39:17
SPEAKER_04: And I was like, oh my gosh, it's not even the first five minutes, it's the first five seconds.
39:21
SPEAKER_04: Literally, like the the way that you interact with each person in your family, that first interaction sets the tone for the whole rest of the night.
39:28
SPEAKER_04: I was like, oh my gosh, I had just had no idea.
39:31
SPEAKER_04: And I think that that one insight for me was really, really critical and was was really helpful.
39:37
SPEAKER_05: Well, you know, we we we we we think about it professionally that you only have one chance to make a first impression, but that happens every time we come home.
39:47
SPEAKER_05: You know, I make a first impression my kids every every time.
39:51
SPEAKER_05: And actually, we make a first impression with every interaction.
39:55
SPEAKER_05: I mean, it really is true, but we don't break it down that way.
40:00
SPEAKER_05: But if we really, really value people, like if we just say people have value, it's our job to be friendly, and that's how we show value to people, and whether we agree with them or it doesn't cost us anything, but we are on immediately giving honor and immediately giving respect just by being friendly.
40:22
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and I think that's the differentiator between you know, if if we're switching more to to something that's like what we do as writers for clients or for colleagues or whatever, you know, I think that's a differentiator.
40:38
SPEAKER_04: It's not really the writing skill.
40:39
SPEAKER_04: I mean, let's be honest.
40:41
SPEAKER_04: It doesn't take that much skill to be a really capable writer.
40:44
SPEAKER_04: It's something that almost anybody can do.
40:46
SPEAKER_04: But the differentiator for me is do you have good relationships with people?
40:50
SPEAKER_04: Are you friendly?
40:51
SPEAKER_04: Do you make people feel good?
40:52
SPEAKER_04: Do you put people at ease?
40:54
SPEAKER_04: Those kinds of things.
40:56
SPEAKER_04: So yeah, I saw Jim's comment.
40:58
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I would love some of Jeff's thoughts as well, too.
41:03
SPEAKER_04: If Jeff is okay with sharing some thoughts on any of this, sure.
41:07
SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm an extreme introvert, so I'm not sure I have any constructive advice to offer.
41:11
SPEAKER_00: But yes, making the effort to actually be consciously friendly and to put yourself out there is definitely good advice.
41:17
SPEAKER_00: And to go back to a question I was asked early on, how do you know when you're lonely?
41:21
SPEAKER_00: I become very negative when I'm starting to become lonely and not realizing it.
41:24
SPEAKER_00: I start becoming very pessimistic, and it's a very gradual downward slope that I catch myself on just about near the bottom.
41:30
unknown: Yeah.
41:30
SPEAKER_00: And so far I've been listening very tenderly, and this is very good advice about actually making the effort and be making it a conscious choice to be friendly rather than just relying on your own personality to lead you there.
41:40
SPEAKER_00: Because for many of us like me, we're not going to get there on our own.
41:44
unknown: Yeah.
41:44
SPEAKER_00: We'll stay in the background in our wallflower mode and keep just keep watching everyone.
41:48
SPEAKER_00: Like right now, in fact.
41:51
SPEAKER_02: Well, thanks for sharing, Jeffrey, though.
41:53
SPEAKER_02: We appreciate it very much.
41:55
SPEAKER_02: Well, thank you for absolutely add more than you know because we we truly want to hear your thoughts.
42:01
SPEAKER_05: Absolutely.
42:02
SPEAKER_05: Thank you.
42:02
SPEAKER_05: I appreciate that.
42:03
SPEAKER_05: Absolutely.
42:04
SPEAKER_05: And just to follow up, Jeffrey, like what you're saying is it's a habit, right?
42:08
SPEAKER_05: Like, like it's it's because of something we can do, but I don't nobody taught me that, right?
42:15
SPEAKER_05: Like, that's the stuff they didn't teach me in kindergarten.
42:17
SPEAKER_05: Is you need to be a habit.
42:18
SPEAKER_05: I mean, all the ways to be friendly, everybody tells you how you should act, but not that I could actually control myself and put my emotions down, whether, however, secure, insecure, happy, set, I can choose no matter what to be friendly.
42:33
SPEAKER_05: So I appreciate you pointing that out.
42:36
SPEAKER_05: It's beyond our how we feel.
42:38
SPEAKER_05: Thanks.
42:38
SPEAKER_02: Certainly.
42:39
SPEAKER_05: Likewise.
42:41
SPEAKER_02: Don't you think a lot of this too is just being aware and looking for opportunities to be friendly?
42:49
SPEAKER_02: Um, I'll admit it, I'm not gonna just come up and start talking to someone as much unless I already know them.
42:57
SPEAKER_02: But I'll I'll make coffee and I'll ask guys in the co-working space, hey, do you want some coffee?
43:01
SPEAKER_02: Well, guess what?
43:02
SPEAKER_02: That's really the connecting thing.
43:05
SPEAKER_02: And I I honestly look more like a waiter at times because I'm like, hey, you ain't looking at me, you're looking at the coffee.
43:13
SPEAKER_02: And um things like that, it makes it so much easier.
43:18
SPEAKER_02: Versus, you know, take away the coffee.
43:20
SPEAKER_02: I might shrivel and just run back to my corner.
43:26
SPEAKER_05: Well, friendly being friendly takes the pressure off of whatever, however, anybody else responds, it doesn't matter, right?
43:35
SPEAKER_05: Like it doesn't matter if they like go, oh, what uh whatever.
43:42
SPEAKER_05: Because that they don't control your choice to be friendly, how you want to serve the coffee, if they don't want it, hey, no big deal.
43:48
SPEAKER_05: It's a low risk, and that's why I say be friendly.
43:51
SPEAKER_05: It's low risk, but yet it's an intentional habit that once it's there, it it not only changes the operation.
44:00
SPEAKER_05: Opportunity for friendships to develop, it changes us.
44:03
SPEAKER_05: Like it just makes us a more positive, approachable, um, generous because we're looking after others and not just ourselves.
44:11
SPEAKER_05: All the kinds of things that we want to be as people, we want our kids to grow up to be like, right?
44:17
SPEAKER_05: Um, I think I think you're on to that.
44:20
SPEAKER_05: I think you're onto something there.
44:21
SPEAKER_05: If the coffee, that's a way of being friendly.
44:24
SPEAKER_05: That's it.
44:25
SPEAKER_02: And it's it's little thing like find what works for you, obviously.
44:30
SPEAKER_02: That helps a ton.
44:31
SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, even if you don't like coffee, like tea, whatever.
44:34
SPEAKER_02: It doesn't matter.
44:35
SPEAKER_02: The point is, you know, even bringing donuts or whatever, it it I mean, people, I mean, even if they say no or no thanks or whatever, you still open the door and you've opened it to conversation because that's that's the real key in the equation.
44:51
SPEAKER_02: That's like you're opening the door to the conversation because you can't connect with anybody if you're not like you know, conversing.
45:00
SPEAKER_05: We we've said this word connecting, and I just want to point out real blatantly that the opposite of loneliness is connected, right?
45:09
SPEAKER_05: And there are different ways.
45:13
SPEAKER_05: So I've got my whole spiel on this, but I I I we're disconnected as humans, right?
45:20
SPEAKER_05: I think that we're just naturally disconnected from one another, from from you know, the really real reality of the world, from culturally, we're disconnected, our own families, ourselves, we get disconnected, uh, society, we're disconnected.
45:36
SPEAKER_05: And and so it's it is about building connection and intentionally, and I think it is the habit of friendliness that is going to move us forward.
45:48
SPEAKER_05: And I only believe that we will succeed as a human race as as we are successfully connected.
45:55
SPEAKER_05: And that really, I think, is the dangerous thing about being lonely and a culture of loneliness is yes, there are individual health risks, you know, like smoking cigarettes, but it is a in our hyper-individualistic Western way.
46:13
SPEAKER_05: And even those who are younger than us who talk about being very connected, they aren't really as connected as, you know, at these deep levels.
46:21
SPEAKER_05: They aren't talking about the 10% of who they really are.
46:24
SPEAKER_05: They want to tell everyone, there's a lot more of how other people need to connect to them.
46:28
SPEAKER_05: Like that's the easy thing that all of us go through when we're younger.
46:32
SPEAKER_05: Is you can connect to me this way.
46:35
SPEAKER_05: That's not the deal.
46:36
SPEAKER_05: The deal is how we can be the ones who own the connection and we offer that out and build a healthy, deeper connection.
46:45
SPEAKER_05: And I agree, Andre, it's about about that quality of connection.
46:49
SPEAKER_05: And it is about building quality connections on all those levels, right?
46:53
SPEAKER_05: That we we have friends that we can talk about those deep, deep things with.
46:58
SPEAKER_04: So let me um let me throw a question out there if I can.
47:02
SPEAKER_04: This this is an uncomfortable kind of a question, but I think it's something that is not talked about very often.
47:08
SPEAKER_04: In in our circles where you know, we all have our own business, we're all kind of wanting to every year we want to rise higher, we want to be more successful, all that kind of thing.
47:18
SPEAKER_04: How do you know when to let go of certain friendships in your life that are not they're people who are not really traveling your same path?
47:27
SPEAKER_04: My wife and I had a a really insightful conversation last night.
47:30
SPEAKER_04: She was giving all the insights, by the way.
47:32
SPEAKER_04: I was just kind of there.
47:34
SPEAKER_04: And um, we were just kind of making the observation of, you know, in your life, when you start to really pursue your personal growth and you start to pursue business success and and you want to you want to become more than who you are right then.
47:48
SPEAKER_04: Um, sometimes it can get a little bit weird because people who have known you at a certain level your whole life, then when you start to grow and develop and build your business and those kind of things, it can get kind of weird a little bit.
48:00
SPEAKER_04: I don't know if any of you have had that experience.
48:03
SPEAKER_04: How how do you think about how do you deal with that discomfort of it's the reality of sometimes you have to be willing just to let some friendships some friendships and relationships kind of go by the wayside because you're not really on the same pathway anymore.
48:25
SPEAKER_04: Or have any of you experienced that as well?
48:29
SPEAKER_01: I know I have.
48:31
SPEAKER_01: For sure.
48:32
SPEAKER_01: You know, the people who knew me back when I was married to my first husband, it was a very abusive relationship.
48:37
SPEAKER_01: I was a completely different person than than I am now.
48:40
SPEAKER_01: And only a very, very small few people have been able to hold my hand through that journey as I've evolved as a person.
48:49
SPEAKER_01: It's a really, really small group of people.
48:51
SPEAKER_01: So people who I thought, you know, 10, 15 years ago were gonna be here forever.
48:56
SPEAKER_01: You kind of had to have that moment where it was like, okay, well, you know, for me, I always say, is this a supportive connection?
49:03
SPEAKER_01: And I don't mean supportive like they're supporting my business or anything like that, but to me personally, am I supporting them in the right way that makes their life better?
49:14
SPEAKER_01: And are they supporting me in a way that makes makes my life better and all aspects of life, it's not just business, but you know, are they are they here for my kids?
49:23
SPEAKER_01: Are they excited about the things I'm sharing?
49:25
SPEAKER_01: Are do I make them feel good?
49:26
SPEAKER_01: Do I make them feel listened to?
49:28
SPEAKER_01: Or are they talking about things that you know really kind of I'm just not there, you know?
49:35
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I'm talking about things that they're really not there with and they're not supporting.
49:41
SPEAKER_01: And you kind of just, I don't know.
49:44
SPEAKER_01: I kind of just hit a place where I'm like, okay, I'm so excited for your journey, but my journey took me here, and yours seems to be taking you there.
49:51
SPEAKER_01: And I'm loving you through the space, but not right in my space anymore.
49:57
SPEAKER_01: Do you know what I mean?
49:57
SPEAKER_01: Like your circle no more, not there, right?
50:00
SPEAKER_01: Call me if you need me, but can't do can't travel this road with you anymore.
50:06
SPEAKER_01: Like, and I don't mean that in a bad way, I just mean you know, we all come to different points and peaks, and I I always feel like I'm a very big, you know, a very religious person.
50:16
SPEAKER_01: So I always feel like God puts the right circle with you through the seasons of your life, and there's only supposed to be a very few that are able to travel all those seasons with you.
50:25
SPEAKER_03: Right.
50:25
SPEAKER_01: I don't think they're all meant to.
50:27
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
50:29
SPEAKER_05: Not everyone makes the journey, and it's not our job to drag people along through our journey either as we grow.
50:37
SPEAKER_05: Sometimes I think we feel that guilt of, oh, I need to make them understand.
50:43
SPEAKER_05: And they just either can't or won't or whatever, and it's not our job.
50:48
SPEAKER_05: And whenever we're starting to drag someone into our journey, I think, like you're saying, that's time to just, hey, you've got your own.
50:56
SPEAKER_05: I'm I'm gonna go on and I'll I'll walk with those who it's easy to walk with, but I can't drag.
51:04
SPEAKER_02: I think the other key component is are they making you better?
51:08
SPEAKER_02: Are they lifting you up or are they just dragging you down?
51:13
SPEAKER_02: And Kent's throwing the disclaimer out there, like, hey, this is a tough question, or you know, this is a difficult conversation.
51:23
SPEAKER_02: That's that's one thing altogether.
51:25
SPEAKER_02: I'd put that like on one hand, I'd say, well, what if this person just constantly drags you down and there's you you leave every conversation feeling less than for your own you know, well-being, you've got to just kind of step aside and you know, do so gracefully.
51:42
SPEAKER_02: And some in some ways it might even mean breaking ties, it might not be as graceful.
51:46
SPEAKER_02: And that talk about hard, that's very, very difficult.
51:50
SPEAKER_02: But you know, you just have to be so honest with yourself, and I think that's the kind of underlying thing, too.
51:56
SPEAKER_02: Like being honest, like, hey, am I lonely?
51:59
SPEAKER_02: Hey, could I what can I do to do better?
52:03
SPEAKER_02: You know, to have those quality connections.
52:05
SPEAKER_02: I love that you wrote quality MJ.
52:08
SPEAKER_02: That's so huge because the quality dwarfs the quantity, and I think that's the the real key too.
52:16
SPEAKER_04: And maybe it's important for each of us to look at it from the opposite viewpoint as to where, okay, am I a quality connection for so and so?
52:24
SPEAKER_04: Am I supporting the people in my network?
52:27
SPEAKER_04: Because it's so easy to kind of look at the people, you know, we think of ourselves as the hero of our own story, yeah.
52:32
SPEAKER_04: Which I guess that there's an element where that's true, but we're also players in other people's stories.
52:38
SPEAKER_04: Sometimes we're the mentor in their story, sometimes we're the friend, sometimes we're the villain, you know, honestly, if if we have like some conflict going on with somebody.
52:46
SPEAKER_05: So and and I mean to follow up on that, we have to know our capacity as well.
52:53
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, like I think it's easy to try to rise to someone else's expectation on what I should be, versus really living in what my own real capacity is.
53:05
SPEAKER_05: And, you know, age and all those things kind of play into that.
53:09
SPEAKER_05: But even in this space as a creator, now I'll just kind of throw that in here that there's all kinds of ideas on what it means to be an artist, a creator, how you should, you know, what it means to be successful, all the all those things.
53:23
SPEAKER_05: Um, but it's also okay that if you only have the capacity to support two or three people, just support two or three people.
53:32
SPEAKER_05: Maybe you can't, you aren't a coach who can run a network of a hundred people and really shepherd all those folks.
53:38
SPEAKER_05: And, you know, maybe your situation doesn't do that.
53:41
SPEAKER_05: Maybe you could in another situation, you know, life circumstance plays into this as well.
53:46
SPEAKER_05: You know, I pastored a church.
53:48
SPEAKER_05: Okay, I could keep up with 100 people really easily because it was my job and it was what I did, but now I'm a missionary overseas, it's a little harder because connection is is different, right?
53:59
SPEAKER_05: Um, so it's it's okay.
54:01
SPEAKER_05: And I think that we don't have to be it just to know what our real capacity is and be honest about that.
54:08
SPEAKER_05: And that may be some of that audit thing you do with those close friends.
54:12
SPEAKER_05: Say, hey, am I being lazy?
54:14
SPEAKER_05: Am I not doing enough?
54:15
SPEAKER_05: Or am I am I trying to do too much and really listen?
54:20
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
54:23
SPEAKER_01: That's funny because with my children recently, my two older ones, um they were asking about the business side of you know, the connections that I'm making.
54:32
SPEAKER_01: Because sometimes I'm like, all right, guys, hold on.
54:34
SPEAKER_01: I'm just gonna, I'm gonna, you know, do my morning thing.
54:37
SPEAKER_01: And I always sit here when I'm having my coffee and I send out different emails to people or different messages that are encouraging certain people, you know, checking in on them, seeing how they're doing.
54:45
SPEAKER_01: Um, and they're like, so like, how do you know?
54:48
SPEAKER_01: Like, these are all the people in your messenger.
54:50
SPEAKER_01: How do you know which ones to follow up with and which ones not to?
54:52
SPEAKER_01: You know, so I literally sat them down and I had them read some of the interactions so that they could see the difference between, yes, I want to connect with this person more, or this person is just draining the life right out of me.
55:07
SPEAKER_01: And I've only talked to them twice.
55:08
SPEAKER_01: So that's probably not someone I'm going to cultivate a relationship with.
55:12
SPEAKER_01: But I let them see the differences in the interactions.
55:16
SPEAKER_01: And it was really cool to watch them realize that.
55:20
SPEAKER_01: And the more I was watching them, the more I was realizing, oh wow, I've kind of hit that place where I'm starting myself to realize within the first few interactions, yep, nope, this one's sucking the life right out of me, and I don't even know them yet.
55:32
SPEAKER_01: So I'm gonna just yeah, kibosh that real quick and then move on to someone else.
55:37
SPEAKER_01: So I think doing like a little study of your own interactions sometimes with people, you know, with a fresh headspace, I think that that kind of helps you see those.
55:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I call them dementors, like from Harry Potter.
55:52
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, don't don't hang with the dementers, they're just gonna suck the life right out of you.
55:56
SPEAKER_01: So, like, don't do that.
56:02
SPEAKER_04: Well, this has been a lot of fun.
56:03
SPEAKER_04: Uh Jared, I appreciate you coming on the call and guiding us and leading us with some good questions and good interaction.
56:09
SPEAKER_04: And thanks everybody for for this uh really good conversation.
56:13
SPEAKER_04: Any final thoughts anybody wants to share about this or um you know, takeaways, things that you want to try and put into practice in your own life?
56:24
SPEAKER_01: I thought this was really great.
56:26
SPEAKER_01: I like to hear the insight from the men side because I think that's you know very important.
56:30
SPEAKER_01: A large part of who I deal with during my day are men.
56:33
SPEAKER_01: So it's great to know and and be conscious of how they might be feeling so that I can better make connection with them.
56:38
SPEAKER_01: So that's awesome.
56:39
SPEAKER_01: I appreciate that insight of all of you from all of you.
56:44
SPEAKER_04: I I think this is an important topic that is not talked about nearly enough because 99.9% of the stuff out there for writing is all about you know, habits and self-publishing and building your business and funnels, and it's like all the businessy stuff.
56:59
SPEAKER_04: But but this also, you know, that this this friendship stuff also has a lot of good implications for us, just as business people, not just as humans, but as business people.
57:08
SPEAKER_04: I think I am convinced that I I think assuming that your writing skills are are good and solid, I think this whole friendliness thing is the differentiator, you know, when it comes to even stuff like client work and connections and podcast interviews, stuff like that.
57:28
SPEAKER_04: So I love friendship.
57:32
SPEAKER_05: Oh, sorry.
57:32
SPEAKER_05: I was just gonna say I call friendship the 104k.
57:35
SPEAKER_05: It's the back of our money investment.
57:38
SPEAKER_05: It's it's really how we're gonna how am I gonna die?
57:41
SPEAKER_05: Am I gonna be this lonely old person in a nursing home?
57:44
SPEAKER_05: But yeah, if I'll if I'll make a plan, right?
57:47
SPEAKER_05: I make a plan with my money, but on the business side, I need to plan for my relationships.
57:52
SPEAKER_05: So I think it's an important part of business.
57:55
SPEAKER_05: I completely agree with you.
57:56
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
57:57
unknown: Yeah.
57:58
SPEAKER_04: I try to, you know, imagine, okay, who's gonna carry my casket at my funeral?
58:02
SPEAKER_04: Who are the six people?
58:04
SPEAKER_04: I know that's that's not a new insight with me.
58:06
SPEAKER_04: I got that from I think Donald Miller or somebody else.
58:08
SPEAKER_04: But I thought I thought that was really powerful insight.
58:10
SPEAKER_02: That's pretty morbid.
58:12
SPEAKER_02: It is, but you know, I mean writer.
58:13
SPEAKER_02: The crime writer's saying that's morbid, that's really morbid.
58:16
SPEAKER_04: But you know, I don't know.
58:19
SPEAKER_04: We're all gonna we're all gonna die, and I just think you need to to think ahead of that.
58:25
SPEAKER_04: Um, think think ahead of time to how do you want people to remember you?
58:29
SPEAKER_04: What kind of impact do you want to have made?
58:31
SPEAKER_04: Hopefully, decades from now.
58:33
SPEAKER_04: Hopefully.
58:34
SPEAKER_04: So okay, on that morbid death note, that got dark really fast somehow.
58:45
SPEAKER_04: Hey, it happens, it happens.
58:47
SPEAKER_04: Okay, this was a lot of fun.
58:48
SPEAKER_04: Jared, thanks for doing this.
58:50
SPEAKER_04: I appreciate it.
58:50
SPEAKER_04: Uh, thanks everybody for showing up.
58:52
SPEAKER_04: Hope this is helpful.
58:53
SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Jared.
58:54
SPEAKER_02: Seriously, that was fantastic.
58:56
SPEAKER_05: Thanks, everybody.
58:57
SPEAKER_05: Good stuff.
58:57
SPEAKER_05: I enjoyed it.
58:59
SPEAKER_04: Cool.
58:59
SPEAKER_04: Hope you guys have a good rest of the afternoon.
59:01
SPEAKER_04: I am diving into some client work.
59:02
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
59:03
SPEAKER_04: And some caffeine.
59:04
SPEAKER_04: Clients and caffeine.
59:06
SPEAKER_04: Good mixture.
59:07
SPEAKER_02: A leads to B.
59:08
SPEAKER_02: That's right.
59:09
SPEAKER_02: Yep.
59:10
SPEAKER_02: Yep.
59:11
SPEAKER_04: All right.
59:12
SPEAKER_04: See you guys.
59:12
SPEAKER_04: Thanks so much.
59:14
SPEAKER_04: Hey, I hope you enjoyed that conversation.
59:16
SPEAKER_04: I really feel like this is an important topic.
59:19
SPEAKER_04: Now, again, here on this show, we talk a lot about marketing and productivity and business and all those kinds of things.
59:26
SPEAKER_04: But but again, I just want to go back to this concept of if you don't have good relationships in your life and you don't have a support system, if you don't have people who love you and who care about you and people who you love and care about, then really what's the point?
59:39
SPEAKER_04: I mean, you can have all the books in the world and all the money or success in the world.
59:44
SPEAKER_04: You can be on all the bestseller lists, but if you don't have those relationships, what's really the point of it all?
59:49
SPEAKER_04: So that's again why we're doing this episode.
59:52
SPEAKER_04: And this is part of the broader topic of what we're featuring here on this month, which is mental health.
1:00:00
SPEAKER_04: So if you are feeling stressed or anxious or depressed or lonely or agitated, um, if something in your life doesn't feel quite right, I encourage you to reach out to some people in your network and in your life.
1:00:11
SPEAKER_04: Go have some coffee with somebody.
1:00:13
SPEAKER_04: Start investing in those relationships.
1:00:15
SPEAKER_04: And as we talked about in this conversation here today, think about who your six people are.
1:00:21
SPEAKER_04: Who are the six people who would carry your casket at your funeral?
1:00:24
SPEAKER_04: I know that's kind of a morose thing to say, but you know, the reality is that all of us are going to pass away someday and somebody's going to carry your casket.
1:00:32
SPEAKER_04: So who is it going to be?
1:00:33
SPEAKER_04: And are you going to invest in those people in an intentional way?
1:00:38
SPEAKER_04: Now, the other thing I do want to mention here as kind of a takeaway is something that we also talked about in this conversation, which kind of sounds like it's the opposite of making friends, and I guess it is, and that is letting go of unhelpful friendships and relationships.
1:00:53
SPEAKER_04: It's okay to let go of relationships and connections in your life that are not serving the direction that you're going.
1:01:00
SPEAKER_04: That's been a that that's a lesson that all of us have to learn at different stages of life.
1:01:04
SPEAKER_04: So if you have people in your life who are not serving you well in terms of uh speaking positivity and encouragement and good things in your life, then maybe it's time to reconsider how much time and emotional energy you're investing in those relationships.
1:01:20
SPEAKER_04: You know, sometimes there are people who come into our lives and they do so for a season.
1:01:24
SPEAKER_04: And it's okay to let those things go and it's okay to appreciate something for what it was in your life at a time when you needed it, but also to recognize that there comes a time when you have to let that thing go.
1:01:36
SPEAKER_04: And when you let that thing go, that's not serving you anymore, that opens up emotional and I think spiritual space for you to embrace the new things that life is going to put in your pathway.
1:01:48
SPEAKER_04: Well, I didn't intend for this episode to quite go that direction, but um honestly it's 12 30 a.m.
1:01:53
SPEAKER_04: as I'm recording this and I'm feeling a little reflective, and that's that.
1:01:57
SPEAKER_04: So I hope that's helpful to you.
1:01:59
SPEAKER_04: Um these are just some things that I'm thinking about.
1:02:01
SPEAKER_04: Maybe it's also a function of just being almost 50 years old.
1:02:05
SPEAKER_04: You know, I'll be 48 this summer, so I'm kind of at the stage of life where I'm getting a little more reflective and trying to be a lot more intentional about how I spend my time and energy.
1:02:14
SPEAKER_04: So again, I hope this uh episode has been helpful to you and I encourage you to listen to it maybe a second time if you are really at a place in your life where you need to hear these things as we all do.
1:02:25
SPEAKER_04: Well, with all that said, I want to thank my wonderful friend Jared Odal for leading this call for the Daily Rider community.
1:02:31
SPEAKER_04: And by the way, if you need to be part of a community, which we all do, I encourage you to check out the Daily Rider community at dailywriterlife.comslash community.
1:02:40
SPEAKER_04: This is a wonderful group of people who come together each week to learn and to write together and to accomplish great things.
1:02:48
SPEAKER_04: So seriously, I encourage you to check it out.
1:02:50
SPEAKER_04: We're having a lot of success in the group.
1:02:52
SPEAKER_04: A lot of people are accomplishing great things, and we've got a wonderful core group of people there.
1:02:56
SPEAKER_04: So check it out.
1:02:57
SPEAKER_04: Uh again, thanks to Jared for making time to be a guest, and I encourage you to check out Jared's website, which is Jarado.com, as well as his social media links, which will be in the show notes.
1:03:07
SPEAKER_04: Thanks so much for listening to today's episode.
1:03:10
SPEAKER_04: I want to take a moment to let you know about our daily writer membership community.
1:03:14
SPEAKER_04: You know, one of the very best ways to develop better habits and impact more people's lives with your writing is to spend time around other successful writers.
1:03:23
SPEAKER_04: So if you're tired of feeling isolated and tasting success on your own, then I know you're gonna love the Daily Writer community.
1:03:30
SPEAKER_04: For years, I searched for the kind of writing community that I would want to join, but I could never find what I wanted, so I created my own.
1:03:37
SPEAKER_04: Some of the features include weekly writing sprints, monthly community calls, book discussions, calls with guest experts, and much more.
1:03:46
SPEAKER_04: For more info, you can visit dailywriterlife.comslash community.
1:03:50
SPEAKER_04: Thanks, and I'll see you tomorrow.