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From Wall Street to Heart-led Maven with Paige Arnof-Fenn · The Heart-Led Business Show

• 0:01
  Speaker: Welcome to the Heart-Led Business Show, where compassion meets commerce and leaders lead with love.
• 0:09
  Speaker: Join your host, Tom Jackobs, as he delves into the insightful conversations with visionary business leaders who defy the status quo, putting humanity first and profit second.
• 0:20
  Speaker: From heartfelt strategies to inspiring stories, this podcast is your compass in the world of conscious capitalism.
• 0:29
  Speaker: So buckle up and let's go.
• 0:31
  Speaker: Let your heart guide your business journey.
• 0:36
  Tom Jackobs: Welcome heart-driven Heroes.
• 0:38
  Tom Jackobs: Today on the heart-led business show, we have the fabulous Paige Arnof-Fenn, founder and CEO of Mavens and Moguls, where she weaves digital wonders for giants like Microsoft and Virgin.
• 0:51
  Tom Jackobs: With degrees from Stanford and Harvard.
• 0:55
  Tom Jackobs: She's a branding Bard with a passion for people.
• 0:58
  Tom Jackobs: Join us as we dive into her journey of heart-led entrepreneurship and the art of crafting connections that really matter.
• 1:06
  Tom Jackobs: Are you ready to feel inspired?
• 1:08
  Tom Jackobs: I know I am.
• 1:09
  Tom Jackobs: So welcome, Paige, to the show.
• 1:10
  Tom Jackobs: How are you today?
• 1:11
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: Tom.
• 1:12
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: I am really excited to chat with you today.
• 1:14
  Tom Jackobs: I'm really excited for this chat as well because, in intro.
• 1:17
  Tom Jackobs: Degrees from both Stanford and Harvard, I would say that you're a overachiever probably.
• 1:21
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: I don't think I'd get into either of them today.
• 1:23
  Tom Jackobs: the first question I always like to ask is what's your definition of a heart-led business?
• 1:29
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: For me it means, being in touch with what makes you tick, what you love, what you're great at, so you can put your whole self behind something that matters and that you put people first.
• 1:45
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: That it doesn't mean that you're not gonna make a profit, but it means that if you attract the right colleagues clients and customers, you work in your zone of excellence, and that's where the magic happens.
• 2:01
  Tom Jackobs: Yeah, the combination of doing what you love attracting the right people and making a profit makes it so much more fun than the alternative, which I know from our previous conversation you were in a alternative situation in terms of not necessarily being heart-led.
• 2:18
  Tom Jackobs: So why don't you tell us your journey into heart-led business ownership.
• 2:22
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: I know it when I see it and I sought it out, is'cause my first job out of college in the eighties was a beeline to Wall Street.
• 2:33
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: not exactly heart-led, but the paycheck was awesome the first Wall Street movie came out when I was a senior in college.
• 2:42
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: Michael Douglas won the Oscar, when I saw the movie, I got hooked.
• 2:46
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: I realized within a week of joining I made a two year commitment.
• 2:50
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: it was gonna be a long two years.
• 2:52
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: It really was not talking to my heart, the money was fantastic for a 21-year-old who didn't know much.
• 2:59
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: After doing that for two years, I learned a ton.
• 3:02
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: I met some great people, but I made a pact with myself that I was never gonna take a job for a paycheck again.
• 3:08
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: That I'm sure there's another path where I could put my smarts to good use and also really enjoy the ride.
• 3:18
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: So when I went back to get an MBA, I was very intentional and deliberate about the companies I wanted to interview for and put my stake in the ground.
• 3:27
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: I realized marketing really was something that I was good at.
• 3:32
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: I enjoyed, and it was a great, marriage of my left brain and my right brain.
• 3:37
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: It was not all analytical.
• 3:39
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: There was a creative outlet where I could really shine I joined the biggest consumer products company in the world.
• 3:46
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: Proctor and Gamble.
• 3:48
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: Some really big marketing companies, believed in investing in the communities where they sold their products.
• 3:56
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: very profitable, successful businesses, but they put their heart into it.
• 4:01
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: even though they were, the 800 pound gorilla in every category number one and number two products.
• 4:08
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: they also were very community minded and.
• 4:12
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: When there were things like natural disasters, they would come in and help the community rebuild.
• 4:18
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: Proctor and Gamble, maker of Tide had 18 wheeler trucks, so people could get their clothes washed.
• 4:24
  Tom Jackobs: I've seen those in Houston.
• 4:26
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: Coca-Cola owns Dasani water in places where they couldn't get clean water.
• 4:31
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: They would pack up trucks and distribute water to, to communities that needed it.
• 4:36
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: And I loved working for businesses that put their money where their mouth was.
• 4:40
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: Like they knew that for the consumers to be able to come back strong and buy their products again, they wanted to build that relationship.
• 4:50
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: Beyond the transaction.
• 4:52
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: And that really left a great impression on me.
• 4:55
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: I left my corporate marketing chapter and joined three startups as head of marketing.
• 5:01
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: again, I mean it was internet 1.0, before things got really crazy.
• 5:08
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: But I think there was a lot of positive energy.
• 5:13
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: In the early startup days.
• 5:15
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: it was the wild west.
• 5:16
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: We didn't know what we were doing these, technology businesses started by these idealistic young people.
• 5:22
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: They were younger.
• 5:23
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: The first startup I joined, the two guys that founded it were younger than me, but they really did wanna do well by the world, everyone wanted to go public and, make money, but.
• 5:34
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: also do right by the world.
• 5:37
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: It was idealistic fun young and energetic, that was a great chapter as well for kind of different reasons.
• 5:44
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: And then after nine 11, I hung out a shingle and started my own firm.
• 5:49
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: And when it's your when the buck stops with you, when it's your business, you have a decision to make and I really wanted to work with clients aligned with my core values and saw the world the way I did, it was a circuitous route, but, I learned at each chapter and I think I've built the kind of business that I can be really proud of.
• 6:11
  Tom Jackobs: That's great, what a great place to learn marketing than Proctor and Gamble, the hallmark of marketing when you look at companies in the world.
• 6:20
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: They invented brand management.
• 6:22
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: it didn't exist running a business on a product it wasn't just, a profit and loss statement you ran it, like your own company great training to be an entrepreneur.
• 6:33
  Tom Jackobs: Yeah, absolutely.
• 6:34
  Tom Jackobs: And then to also see how they give back as well, because didn't they give, soap to the ducks.
• 6:40
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: Valdez oil spill, the Dawn dishwashing, it cuts grease when you wash plates after a greasy meal.
• 6:48
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: that exact formula, it did, it cleaned the ducks and it was amazing in terms of, getting the wildlife back to normal after the fact.
• 6:58
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: So you're absolutely right that.
• 7:01
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: Opportunities for their products to do good in the world and to help wildlife, and humanity, that left a great impression on me.
• 7:09
  Tom Jackobs: How have you taken that learning and put that into your business?
• 7:13
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: One of my first clients, when you're a young business and sign on an early client.
• 7:18
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: It's such a vote of confidence I was excited, to work for this small business.
• 7:24
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: The guy hired us to handle all his public relations for a year.
• 7:29
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: He signed a six figure engagement letter, so I thought, wow, I really made it My company is on the map, early on, just in the first month or two.
• 7:39
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: having a few misgivings because things weren't really as I was hoping they would be.
• 7:46
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: The guy was not a particularly nice guy, a jerk.
• 7:50
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: He wasn't paying us, on a regular schedule.
• 7:54
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: Two months in, he was already behind on payments so on month three we had a face-to-face meeting.
• 8:01
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: This was well before covid.
• 8:02
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: we were doing a lot of meetings, on conference calls.
• 8:06
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: We decided to meet at his headquarters I had two team members in New York City and two here in Boston and he was based in Boston.
• 8:14
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: The four of us got together at his office and, we were gonna go over how we've been doing for the first 90 days, and frankly, the team had done an amazing job getting him some really high quality mentions in some of the greatest business journals and, on cable tv.
• 8:34
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: they had a lot of great things in the pipeline.
• 8:36
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: And so I said to the guy, since we've we're all together, maybe we could just, before we jump into the agenda, you can just thank the team and tell'em how you think things are going.
• 8:46
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: It's just, I feel like we hit the ground running and they have worked so hard it almost looks too easy.
• 8:52
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: I'm excited for all the great press they've generated.
• 8:55
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: And he said to me.
• 8:56
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: Why would I thank them?
• 8:58
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: I'm paying them.
• 9:00
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: that was a gut punch.
• 9:02
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: I knew the guy was a jerk, but that big of a jerk?
• 9:04
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: Is that even who thinks of that?
• 9:07
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: I, and so then I sent him, it's funny because you mentioned Ping and in fact, we're a bit late on payments, so maybe at the end of this meeting.
• 9:16
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: You could walk back to your desk and write a check so we can get caught up.
• 9:21
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: I could see the guy was just not really the kind of person I was proud to be working with.
• 9:29
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: So we jumped into the agenda, we went through everything.
• 9:32
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: as the meeting was wrapping up I reminded him that he needed to get his checkbook and catch us up.
• 9:38
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: And he comes ba And the meeting was not very fulfilling when you're, when you do work that you're excited by, and the client takes the air out of the balloon left, right and center, you gotta scratch your head and say is this even worth it?
• 9:50
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: So when he brings the check I said to him, really don't think we're the right team for you.
• 9:55
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: I think you're gonna be better served by another group.
• 9:58
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: And he was taken aback and said.
• 10:00
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: firing me as a client?
• 10:02
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: And I thought, I think we are we've, done a great job in the first quarter and I'm thrilled we've delivered, beyond our expectations.
• 10:11
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: But at the end of the month now that we're paid up, we should wrap up, shake hands and part ways.
• 10:16
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: he was just shocked.
• 10:18
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: And we wa the four of us walk out of the meeting, we get to the parking lot.
• 10:22
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: And it was like a weight had been lifted and my team, they were in shock.
• 10:28
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: They're like, I can't believe you did that.
• 10:31
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: But it dawned on me when it's your business, the buck stops with you, if you're working with or for people that are not aligned with you.
• 10:41
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: Again, from a values mission, vision standpoint.
• 10:45
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: didn't wanna build a business with people like that.
• 10:49
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: My biggest fear, honestly, at that moment was knew he was a jerk.
• 10:54
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: And he probably knew he was a jerk.
• 10:56
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: And a lot of his small business owner friends probably absolutely knew the guy was a jerk.
• 11:03
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: And I thought, oh my God, if people that know him were impressed by all the press that we generated for him.
• 11:13
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: they thought, I'm a jerk too, but I'm not as big of a jerk as that guy.
• 11:17
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: imagine what that group could do for me I thought, big red flashing sign.
• 11:23
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: I don't wanna build a practice with these types of clients.
• 11:26
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: So if I don't cut loose now, this could take me to a place I have no intention of going.
• 11:32
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: the good news is, it's a feng shui thing.
• 11:34
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: When you clear out clutter, it opens things up.
• 11:37
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: For something better within six weeks we had replaced the revenue with great that were aligned with us on so many levels.
• 11:48
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: And the team was just like thrilled and explosive in terms of the energy they had really multiplied, because of just getting that monkey off our back to learn in the first months of my company.
• 12:02
  Tom Jackobs: Oh yeah.
• 12:02
  Tom Jackobs: But the biggest question I have for you on that story is, did his check clear?
• 12:07
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: I deposited it on the way home from the meeting.
• 12:10
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: I didn't wanna take a
• 12:11
  Tom Jackobs: Yes.
• 12:11
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: good.
• 12:12
  Tom Jackobs: You'd think that's a jerk thing to do, right?
• 12:14
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: Exactly.
• 12:15
  Tom Jackobs: Wow.
• 12:16
  Tom Jackobs: Yeah.
• 12:16
  Tom Jackobs: that's a question ask of heart-led business owners, are there times you need to make money and take on clients and what does that feel like?
• 12:24
  Tom Jackobs: your story illustrates the problem when you don't follow your heart intuition know who you wanna work with, and still make a profit.
• 12:32
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: You can't fake that.
• 12:34
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: I feel like if people think can go through the motions or just oh, I'll just do it this time and when we get through it, I won't do that again.
• 12:44
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: It's a very slippery slope.
• 12:45
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: So in, in my experience, you have to.
• 12:49
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: be brutally honest and do it right the first time because you don't wanna compromises or, just do something that's not congruous to the person you are and the business you wanna build because you'll make compromises in a way that it.
• 13:11
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: It never turns out the way you want it to, and I think the more brutally honest you can be with yourself early on, the better.
• 13:18
  Tom Jackobs: Yeah, absolutely.
• 13:18
  Tom Jackobs: I've had those situations where, money was tight and clients come in, you do the interview and just need the money, they always are a pain don't do what you ask them to do, and then they're not happy, so they're not gonna refer anybody to you.
• 13:31
  Tom Jackobs: They're gonna actually probably badmouth you.
• 13:34
  Tom Jackobs: It's not a win for everybody, and that's a shame.
• 13:37
  Tom Jackobs: it's a hard lesson when you're leading with your heart and you wanna serve everybody and you probably think, oh, they'll be different this time.
• 13:44
  Tom Jackobs: But it never is your gut knows.
• 13:47
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: Even though, this was a six figure contract, the guy signed.
• 13:52
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: We were servicing him at a level higher than what he was paying for, and he was not happy.
• 13:58
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: I realized throwing more money at this was not gonna make him happier.
• 14:03
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: you're just digging the hole.
• 14:05
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: What's the quote when you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.
• 14:09
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: I realized we could not get out of this.
• 14:13
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: In a way that was a win-win.
• 14:14
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: Like you said, he was never gonna be happy and we were never gonna be the right group for him.
• 14:19
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: by finding people more aligned with us, the energy explodes and things more than compensate because they really are the kind of people you wanna be around, and it just makes for a much happier, more productive experience.
• 14:37
  Tom Jackobs: When setting up your business, did you go through a process of doing like the core values, the mission, and the vision of the business?
• 14:45
  Tom Jackobs: And then after this episode, did it have you go ba did your mind say, I need to go back and revisit my core values, mission and vision to make sure that this never happens again?
• 14:58
  Tom Jackobs: And what was that process like?
• 14:59
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: Honestly, I'm more opportunistic than strategic.
• 15:03
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: Yes, like I am very, persnickety.
• 15:07
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: I don't know what the right word for my clients.
• 15:09
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: We do.
• 15:10
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: The mission, vision, values, exercises, that is something that, you know, when, for this, a certain type of engagement that's non-negotiable.
• 15:21
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: Bit of a cobbler's kid to be brutally honest with you, because I have never taken my own business.
• 15:27
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: that level of kind of intensity that I would for my own clients.
• 15:34
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: However, I have with my team, had very lengthy discussions and been very intentional and deliberate.
• 15:43
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: The messaging and reviewing the website and talking about how we're presenting ourselves at certain conferences or meetings.
• 15:54
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: So the answer is, I think I'm constantly doing it in a way because I try and live our values every day, and with every decision of who we're gonna work with and bring into the group, both as a colleague and a client.
• 16:10
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: It's more part of the air we breathe, the water we drink, but I do not do the level of intense.
• 16:19
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: Process that I would for a client who's paying us a lot of money to do that.
• 16:23
  Tom Jackobs: Yeah.
• 16:24
  Tom Jackobs: it feels like you intuitively can see when a new client approaches and you go, okay, let's make sure we're all in alignment and works.
• 16:33
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: I remember after that experience with the jerk client.
• 16:37
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: I was introduced to the CEO a hot technology business out of MIT, very prestigious investors, pedigreed team launching the business.
• 16:48
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: And the guy met me at a networking event.
• 16:51
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: He'd said he'd heard great things about our firm.
• 16:54
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: He really wanted to hire us to work on his marketing and, When he gave me his elevator pitch, it really didn't resonate with me, to be quite honest.
• 17:05
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: Even though he had all the right kind of, experiences on his resume, he was getting money from a lot of blue chip venture capitalists.
• 17:14
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: He had all the makings for the golden child, and he was he said to me what his marketing budget was, which was not insignificant.
• 17:24
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: But when he was telling me about his business, it just didn't resonate with me why I wasn't buying it the way that he was using all the buzz words and jargon and whatever.
• 17:35
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: It's like he kinda had a very polished pitch, too polished and it just didn't make sense to me, maybe I'm a little old school.
• 17:44
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: Maybe I've read too many Warren Buffet annual.
• 17:48
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: Letters.
• 17:48
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: he only invests in things that really he understands and he understands how they make money.
• 17:54
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: And this guy just doing it for me.
• 17:56
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: And so I told him how appreciative I am that he sought me out and that he wanted to hire us, but I just didn't think we were the right firm for him, then he like sheepishly laughed and he said to me.
• 18:07
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: The truth is I was low balling you on the budget.
• 18:10
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: I've got more money than I had wor, throughout for the marketing budget.
• 18:14
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: Now he gives me a number, like 25 or 30% higher.
• 18:17
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: He is now I'm sure you're much more interested in working with us.
• 18:21
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: Actually, no, it's not a question of your budget.
• 18:23
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: I don't think we're the right firm for you.
• 18:26
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: it was almost like back in the dating days where the less interested you are the more interested they are that guy was stalking me.
• 18:34
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: he had to hire us, had to get us on the team.
• 18:37
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: I'm not going down that path again.
• 18:39
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: I know what kind of partnerships are productive for us.
• 18:44
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: I know the kind of firms we can really help.
• 18:47
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: To Be explosive.
• 18:48
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: This is not that kind of firm.
• 18:50
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: And finally he got the message.
• 18:53
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: But do think if you're doing something because the money looks good or they're impressed with your resume, or funders probably not a great reason wasn't for me.
• 19:06
  Tom Jackobs: Yeah.
• 19:06
  Tom Jackobs: there needs to be that fit.
• 19:08
  Tom Jackobs: It is like a marriage in terms of working closely together and their reputation affects your reputation as well.
• 19:15
  Tom Jackobs: And especially when it comes to marketing and pr, I would imagine that, they do something really bad, but like you're there to save it.
• 19:23
  Tom Jackobs: And then people are like but why is that firm?
• 19:27
  Tom Jackobs: And, it gets tangled.
• 19:28
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: And it is true that if you look at you spend the most time with, personally and professionally, you are associated with them for better or worse.
• 19:38
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: And so you have to look around and say, are these the people bring out the best in me?
• 19:43
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: Are these the ones that are gonna get me?
• 19:46
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: To the place I'm trying to go.
• 19:48
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: And if they're not, you have to ask yourself, am I spending so much time with these people?
• 19:53
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: Why am I doing this?
• 19:54
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: Because, you wanna do things that really build your brand and build your reputation and not dilute equity that you've put in to the brands you're building.
• 20:05
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: I think it requires you to be brutally honest and say, these are my people, or these are not my people.
• 20:10
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: No matter how good the money is.
• 20:12
  Tom Jackobs: Yeah.
• 20:12
  Tom Jackobs: the earlier you do that in your business like you did, you had that experience that catapulted you to do that hard work.
• 20:19
  Tom Jackobs: for listeners wanting to start a heart led business, What Paige is saying is so critical for building that business that you truly love and the clients that you love to work with, if you start to go down road where it's just, I really need the money, it's never gonna work out.
• 20:37
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: It's hard to justify like I did it last time.
• 20:42
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: think about the opportunity cost.
• 20:44
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: Think about what you're not doing because your heart's not in it your gut's telling you these are not my people.
• 20:50
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: you could be building better, stronger relationships with people who are really gonna get you where you wanna go long term.
• 20:57
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: keep the long-term goals in mind and realize there are detours on your path.
• 21:05
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: it's okay to pivot.
• 21:07
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: but it's not okay to compromise what you believe in and what you stand for because you are diluting your brand and you are sending a signal to the people who might be great for you.
• 21:20
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: That you're not the kind of business that they wanna partner with, so be careful.
• 21:25
  Tom Jackobs: That's great.
• 21:25
  Tom Jackobs: And you know that, that pivot versus compromise, I think that's a really good distinction.
• 21:31
  Tom Jackobs: Pivoting is D, very different than compromising in terms of compromising values.
• 21:36
  Tom Jackobs: so glad you brought that up Paige, this half hour has gone by so quickly.
• 21:41
  Tom Jackobs: what a great talk and conversation.
• 21:43
  Tom Jackobs: I love the stories to illustrate what heart led really means.
• 21:47
  Tom Jackobs: you can still be very successful and profitable and still be a heart led business.
• 21:52
  Tom Jackobs: how can people learn more about, your business and potentially working with you?
• 21:56
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: The two best places are on LinkedIn, and my company website, mavensandmoguls.com.
• 22:03
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: And one of my clients always says, because my company has an ampersand, and my last name is hyphenated.
• 22:08
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: There are too many words for her to remember.
• 22:11
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: She always remembers Paige and Mavens.
• 22:14
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: If you Google, Paige and Mavens, I'll pop right up so you can find me that way too.
• 22:18
  Tom Jackobs: All right or pop that into chat GPT and they'll get your whole history there as well.
• 22:23
  Tom Jackobs: That's awesome.
• 22:24
  Tom Jackobs: We'll link all that up into the show notes.
• 22:26
  Tom Jackobs: Paige, thank you so much for taking your time outta the day and having to chat with me and having our listeners listen in as well.
• 22:32
  Tom Jackobs: I really appreciate it.
• 22:33
  Paige Arnof-Fenn: Tom, this has been super fun I love the premise of what you're doing and the stories that you're getting to tell, and I think it's such an important message thank you.
• 22:45
  Tom Jackobs: Thank you for tuning into the Heart Led Business Show.
• 22:48
  Tom Jackobs: I certainly appreciate it.
• 22:49
  Tom Jackobs: And make sure you are checking out exactly what Paige is doing.
• 22:52
  Tom Jackobs: Go to her website, check out everything and if it makes sense and your heart led as well as she is.
• 22:58
  Tom Jackobs: You're not a jerk, then make sure you give her a call.
• 23:02
  Tom Jackobs: And if you could do me a solid favor and do what other considerate and smart listeners are doing is to share this show with others that could use the advice that was shared today.
• 23:11
  Tom Jackobs: And until next time, lead with your heart.
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: You've been listening to the heart-led Business Show, hosted by Tom Jackobs.
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: Join us next time for another inspiring journey into the heart of business.