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What is it like to live in a healthy democracy? · Save Democracy

• 0:03
  Welcome to Save Democracy.
• 0:05
  I'm the host Katherine Davies.
• 0:08
  Denmark consistently ranks as one of the top three democracies in the world
• 0:12
  along with New Zealand and Norway.
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  Today we're at a student cafe in the heart of Copenhagen, to answer
• 0:19
  one question, what does a healthy democracy actually feel like?
• 0:24
  Meet Sarah, Mathias and Hamza.
• 0:27
  I asked Sarah, what's it like to live in one of the world's healthiest democracies?
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  I think it's very natural to have a say in every matter of society.
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  It's interesting because I think Denmark has success with doing democracy because
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  we take it into every institution we have.
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  So from five to six years old, I was taught about democracy and we learned
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  about voting and everything in school.
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  I don't think it's natural in the rest of the world necessarily.
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  Would you say that those democratic tendencies, if you like, were not
• 1:10
  so much inculcated at home, but more through the school system?
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  Yeah, I think that because in Denmark we are also very lucky to have free
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  schools everywhere, or free - we pay a lot in tax compared to other countries.
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  So education is free.
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  After you become an adult, you are actually paid to study.
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  So I think that makes the difference between other countries, because
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  everyone has access to democracy.
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  All of the people are informed about democracy.
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  I think Denmark has a more multilateral approach to a lot of things, including the
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  parties we vote for during the elections.
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  When I think about other countries, that's usually very few, maybe two parties,
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  three parties that you can vote for.
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  But in Denmark, I think generally when we have these discussions politically
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  when we are forming coalitions, there's this approach of cooperation
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  and I think it's ingrained not only politically but also culturally and
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  societally, how we always try to do things together and to help one another.
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  So I'm generally very optimistic about the democracy that we have in
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  Denmark, and I'm a big proponent of it.
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  I always tell people to go vote and to make themselves heard.
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  Right now, we have the negotiations that are taking place because we
• 2:42
  just had the general elections, and it's a long drawn out process
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  and there's a lot of grandstanding.
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  It takes a long time to get to points where we can agree enough
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  to form coalitions, but I think it's okay to take that time.
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  I would rather that they agree on policies than to find out at some point
• 3:03
  later that we actually don't agree with each other on specific areas.
• 3:06
  And then it's just chaos and there is disarray.
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  I volunteer in different organisations and when I want something to
• 3:20
  change, I actually feel like I have the access to change it.
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  But I think that Denmark is very lucky because we have this
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  culture around you called it association, what did you call it?
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  Freedom of association to form any group you like.
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  We often form groups also, if we are just two people who wants to
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  make a group against something or for something or all round a
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  certain interest, we always do that.
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  Danes do that a lot.
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  So I, I feel like democracy is often something we do without thinking about it.
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  That sense of agency, is that something that's taught at school, encouraged at
• 4:03
  school at least in terms of being able to form a group of any kind to have your say.
• 4:08
  Yeah.
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  Yeah.
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  The schools have collaborations with the, we call it foreningsliv,
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  what do you call it?
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  'Group life'.
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  I can't translate it directly.
• 4:20
  That's a great translation.
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  Group life, and we, they often collab with these and people have
• 4:29
  interests and go out there and fight for something, or start interests
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  and that's part of the school curriculum, that kind of activity?
• 4:37
  No, but many schools are doing this because it makes sense.
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  Also, we have a crisis with children not being healthy mentally and so on.
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  So I think there's a lot of focus on this right now in Denmark, that
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  we need to put children and the next generation out in groups and in
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  society, to get a meaning in life..
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  And the meaning of life is also participation and democracy.
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  During my bachelor's, I was an election coordinator for one
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  of the student organisations.
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  In Denmark, politics is not only what happens in Christiansborg, which is the
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  parliament, but also in a lot of different lower level organisations and these sort
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  of unions or Foreninger, we call them.
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  So I helped run the election for one of these organisations because I think
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  it's really important that when you have specific agendas or things that matter
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  to you as a student, that you're able to make students maybe find the relevancy
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  in it and to at least whether you agree with it or not, make your voice heard.
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  And to make sure that you apply yourself in that forum.
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  Because if you don't use your vote, if you don't have this sort of appreciation
• 6:00
  for the democracy that we are living in, then you're throwing away your chance
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  to use the system that we've built up.
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  And I think that's a shame really.
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  And that's why I'm enthusiastic about it so that I can make my own voice
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  heard, but also to encourage others.
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  That's the system we live in.
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  That's what we agree to use and we should use it.
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  A healthy democracy is one that is active, and engages with issues that are relevant
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  and pertinent right here and right now.
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  I had an experience with changing something or being a part of something.
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  I wrote together with my political organisation, I wrote some things
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  about abortion once, many years ago.
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  And then five years later, the government actually took it up in the parliament
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  and were like, yeah, that's a good idea.
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  So we made some difference.
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  And that's great.
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  That's a great feeling.
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  Just being young people at the age of 16 to 20 thinking something and
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  having an opinion about something and then grownups are taking it seriously.
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  And when you were putting that idea first forward when you were 16, was
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  there some kind of straightforward way to do that in the sense that you knew
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  what to do or people could support you?
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  Or was it fairly straightforward to be able to put your idea into the world?
• 7:31
  Yeah, I think democracy in Denmark is very visible.
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  You can just write to the Prime Minister.
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  Maybe she doesn't have time, but you can write an email if you want something.
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  And people are often very positive about it.
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  People want to listen.
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  I'm very convinced that they are.
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  So there's a lot of room for changing something and there's a lot of room
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  for being listened to if you are actually participating in real life and
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  not just jumping into a rabbit hole, which makes you angry on the internet
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  For Hamza, his lens on democracy in Denmark is shaped by visits
• 8:15
  to his home country of Somalia.
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  When you live in Denmark, and compared to where I was born?
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  Here, it's more like a rule based society compared to Somalia where
• 8:27
  there's not that many rules.
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  And the justice system that is not that strong compared to Denmark, where
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  the justice is strong and everybody is under the same rules, even the Prime
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  Minister and the regular citizen, they have to follow the same laws.
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  Compared to in Somalia, where maybe you have a higher status
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  and you could get away with more.
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  Also, it's more common to bribe people.
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  Last time I visited Somalia, which was last year, usually they just
• 9:00
  check if you have any contraband.
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  And sometimes the police, if you look like a foreigner or somebody who has money,
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  they might even ask you for some money.
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  Another thing is, sometimes some kids, they throw rocks at your
• 9:14
  house, which is normal there, or they may hop into your house to steal
• 9:20
  something, which is normal there.
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  If you call the police, sometimes you have to pay the police some
• 9:26
  money just to find them for you.
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  In Denmark, you just report it, but there, if you don't pay the money,
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  they might not even want to help you.
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  One of the challenges where there's democratic decline
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  is the polarisation online.
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  The polarisation isn't that bad yet, and that's because of our
• 9:54
  free healthcare or free systems.
• 9:57
  And this state is quite big in Denmark compared to other countries.
• 10:01
  We have a lot of social workers and people who take care of those
• 10:05
  who don't thrive in their lives.
• 10:08
  So I think it's not that bad yet.
• 10:11
  Do you mean like there's a lot of trust in governance?
• 10:13
  Yeah.
• 10:14
  Yeah.
• 10:15
  There is a lot of trust in governance, but all politicians aren't, you don't
• 10:20
  have that trust, but it's not as bad as it as it is in other countries.
• 10:24
  So I think that when you look at the Danish debate online, it's often very
• 10:30
  bad, but it's because the algorithms are pushing forward these very black
• 10:36
  or white agendas in certain questions.
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  But people, when they go out in real life and have that real
• 10:44
  talk, I don't think it's bad yet.
• 10:47
  I think we have a great conversation with each other.
• 10:50
  It sounds like that listening
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  is a collective skill here, at a high level, just generally speaking,
• 10:56
  people listen to each other.
• 10:57
  Yeah, people listen to each other.
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  It's almost like online, people are being people they don't wanna be in real life.
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  A lot of these comments that are really nasty, then we think
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  that's the real conversation.
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  But when you go out there, in the real life, it's not as bad
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  and that, that's very reassuring, I imagine when you've just
• 11:22
  had a scary time online.
• 11:24
  Yeah.
• 11:31
  Have you experienced discrimination in Denmark?
• 11:34
  Actually, I don't think so.
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  Especially if you live in the bigger city like Copenhagen, you don't feel
• 11:40
  that much discrimination and they do a lot to make you feel included.
• 11:47
  It's usually if you go to smaller towns.
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  You can experience some negativity there where they're not used to
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  see people from another country.
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  A small town in rural Denmark.
• 11:57
  Exactly.
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  Have you experienced any discrimination that way?
• 12:01
  No.
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  No, but my mom has, she wears a veil.
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  A veil over her face.
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  Somebody commented on that, that she should go where she come from
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  because she was wearing that.
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  She should go back to where she comes from?
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  But I haven't personally, I haven't experienced anything like that.
• 12:17
  Has that happened to her often or,
• 12:20
  No, it's one time she told me, a long time ago.
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  It's not that common, but if it happens, it will happen in a rural area.
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  It wouldn't happen like in a bigger city.
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  People are more like welcoming in a bigger city.
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  Also, you will meet people from everywhere in a bigger city,
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  so people are more used to it.
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  It's not something that's uncommon to them.
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  You've been so helpful.
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  Thank you.
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  You are welcome.
• 12:48
  I hope you enjoyed our stop at the cafe in Copenhagen.
• 12:52
  Special thanks to Sarah, Hamza and Mathias.
• 12:55
  If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a review or rating on your
• 12:58
  podcast platform to help others find us.
• 13:01
  I'm Katherine Davies and this is Save Democracy.
• 13:05
  Thank you for listening!