Latest / Mind Over Mountain / The Long Walk Forward: Libby DeLana on Change, Clarity, and What Comes Next

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The Long Walk Forward: Libby DeLana on Change, Clarity, and What Comes Next · Mind Over Mountain

0:08
Speaker 1: Hi, everyone.
0:09
Speaker 2: Welcome to Mind Over Mountain with me, Cheryl Strayed. This week,
0:13
Speaker 2: my guest is my friend and famous walker, Libby Delaina. Libby,
0:18
Speaker 2: in 2011, decided to take a morning walk every day,
0:21
Speaker 2: no matter what. By now, she's more than walked the
0:24
Speaker 2: circumference of the earth. plus a little bit more than
0:27
Speaker 2: that too. In our conversation, we talk about how putting
0:31
Speaker 2: one foot in front of the other can bring clarity
0:34
Speaker 2: and calm and a wider perspective. We also talk about
0:37
Speaker 2: plunging into those next chapters.
0:39
Speaker 1: Of our lives.
0:40
Speaker 2: Let's listen to our conversation. Libby Delaney, welcome to Mind
0:44
Speaker 2: Over Mountain.
0:46
Speaker 1: Thank you, Cheryl. I'm so happy to see you. I'm
0:49
Speaker 1: so happy to see you too.
0:50
Speaker 2: I mean, the little secret that is not such a
0:53
Speaker 2: secret is not only... am I excited to talk to
0:56
Speaker 2: you because you're amazing and interesting, but we're friends. Right.
1:01
Speaker 1: Actually, I would go further to say we have a
1:04
Speaker 1: love affair. That's right. That's right.
1:07
Speaker 2: And it, you know, it's interesting because it began in
1:11
Speaker 2: some ways. I mean, I think probably one of our
1:13
Speaker 2: first conversations was about our shared love of walking and
1:19
Speaker 2: the power of walking in our lives and the things
1:21
Speaker 2: that we've learned from doing, as I say, taking life
1:25
Speaker 2: at foot speed and observing the world at that pace.
1:29
Speaker 2: And of course, since I met you, you've become quite
1:34
Speaker 2: famous for being a daily walker, This Morning Walk, and
1:38
Speaker 2: of course, your wonderful book, Do Walk, which is all
1:41
Speaker 2: about this beautiful commitment that you have to yourself to
1:46
Speaker 2: walk every day, which you've done every day since 2011.
1:50
Speaker 2: Tell me about that. What is the 15th anniversary? When
1:54
Speaker 2: exactly did you start in 2011 walking?
1:57
Speaker 3: Yeah, the actual birthday is November 9th, which is the
2:01
Speaker 3: day my dad died. And that is only significant in
2:05
Speaker 3: that he was a big influence on my life. So
2:11
Speaker 3: it makes sense that it coincides. But it wasn't really, honestly,
2:16
Speaker 3: his death that was the inspiration. It was just a
2:19
Speaker 3: beautiful little love note from the universe that that's when
2:22
Speaker 3: it started. Actually, honestly, it started when I was 50.
2:26
Speaker 3: I started to sort of realize that while everything in
2:33
Speaker 3: my life, I had nothing to complain about. Honestly, I
2:37
Speaker 3: felt like one of the luckiest people on the planet.
2:39
Speaker 3: Our family was healthy. We I, my, my work was satisfying.
2:47
Speaker 3: I loved my friends, but there was this little tiny
2:51
Speaker 3: scratch behind my ear, which was sort of, there's, there's
2:55
Speaker 3: something that's, that's just sort of missing. And it wasn't,
2:58
Speaker 3: it wasn't a lightning bolt moment. It was just one of.
3:00
Speaker 1: Those recollections, I think, of myself.
3:04
Speaker 3: As an eight-year-old that the place I was happiest and
3:07
Speaker 3: the place where I felt really at home was in
3:09
Speaker 3: the outdoors. And so really getting out for a walk
3:12
Speaker 3: every day was a gesture towards that, towards that eight-year-old.
3:17
Speaker 3: It wasn't about number of steps or, you know, working
3:21
Speaker 3: out per se. It was really just a prioritization of
3:26
Speaker 3: putting myself in the place where I just felt most
3:30
Speaker 3: like myself. And my days had become very carpool-centric and,
3:34
Speaker 3: you know, meetings and all, you know, life, beautiful life.
3:37
Speaker 1: Yeah.
3:38
Speaker 3: And I think I just had forgotten maybe one of
3:42
Speaker 3: the key pieces of who I was.
3:44
Speaker 1: And so... That's kind of when I started and I
3:47
Speaker 1: haven't stopped.
3:48
Speaker 3: I mean, it sounds very Forrest Gump-ish, I know, and
3:50
Speaker 3: perhaps it is, but here we are.
3:54
Speaker 2: But, you know, I think it's interesting, you know, that
3:57
Speaker 2: there is that anniversary of your father's death, which, of course,
4:00
Speaker 2: you know, I would say that does probably invite some reflection.
4:04
Speaker 2: But I think my guess is that you being 50.
4:09
Speaker 1: Was really like the bigger motivator.
4:12
Speaker 2: And I'm going to guess that you've talked to a
4:14
Speaker 2: lot of women who, approach middle age and maybe some
4:18
Speaker 2: men too. I think a lot of us at this
4:20
Speaker 2: kind of midpoint in life or what we sort of
4:23
Speaker 2: roughly say is midpoint or we hope.
4:25
Speaker 1: Yeah, if we're lucky. Look back and.
4:28
Speaker 2: As you say, like you have two adult children, you
4:32
Speaker 2: have a big career, you have all kinds of great
4:36
Speaker 2: things in your life. But I do think sometimes we
4:39
Speaker 2: reach that middle age and say, well, where did I go? Like,
4:43
Speaker 2: I want to return to some of that can you
4:46
Speaker 2: talk to me about that a bit? I mean, I'm
4:49
Speaker 2: going to imagine for you, that was a time of transition.
4:52
Speaker 2: Your kids, I think, were probably leaving home around that time.
4:56
Speaker 2: How much did midlife play into this new commitment to
5:00
Speaker 2: walking in 2011?
5:02
Speaker 3: I think at the time, I probably wasn't particularly aware
5:08
Speaker 3: of that.
5:08
Speaker 1: It's such a good question.
5:10
Speaker 3: And now at age 64, I think it played a
5:15
Speaker 3: big role. Also, Cheryl, I want to acknowledge that you
5:18
Speaker 3: started walking at the death of one of your parents, too.
5:23
Speaker 3: That was a monumental catalyst for you. So I recognize
5:28
Speaker 3: our shared.
5:31
Speaker 1: Moment in that. And you and I have talked about that.
5:35
Speaker 3: But I think the thing is, I think, to the
5:38
Speaker 3: truth be told, at 50, I probably didn't think I'm
5:42
Speaker 3: at midlife. I probably didn't recognize, honestly, that that's where
5:48
Speaker 3: I was in my life. I don't think I was
5:53
Speaker 3: particularly conscious of that. But I do think I felt
5:58
Speaker 3: a hunger, you know, and maybe I wouldn't have been
6:01
Speaker 3: able to put a label on it that it was
6:03
Speaker 3: a midlife moment. But I think I had this craving,
6:07
Speaker 3: this hunger, which is, as I said, much of my
6:10
Speaker 3: life feels very comfortable and lovely.
6:16
Speaker 1: And yet, I don't think I'm whole.
6:22
Speaker 3: And in that reflection, what would it take to feel
6:28
Speaker 3: a more sort of holistic being well-being?
6:33
Speaker 1: I was well, by all accounts, thankfully, knocking on wood.
6:37
Speaker 3: But there was, I think, a little spiritual gap or
6:41
Speaker 3: a little hiccup.
6:42
Speaker 1: Something was missing.
6:43
Speaker 2: So when you first set out, did you think, OK,
6:48
Speaker 2: I'm going to go for a walk today? Or did
6:50
Speaker 2: you think, I'm going to walk every day for the
6:53
Speaker 2: rest of my life? Or what was your thinking about that?
6:57
Speaker 2: about the role that walking would play in defining that
7:01
Speaker 2: sense of wholeness at the outset.
7:05
Speaker 3: Another wonderful, dear sugar question. Truth be told, I think
7:10
Speaker 3: I literally woke up that morning and thought, oh.
7:14
Speaker 1: You know what?
7:15
Speaker 3: It would feel really good to wake up a little
7:17
Speaker 3: early and simply move my body, watch the sun wake up,
7:21
Speaker 3: watch my community wake up.
7:24
Speaker 1: And I did not think.
7:26
Speaker 3: Oh, gosh, I am going to be sort of rigorous
7:29
Speaker 3: in my discipline or my fidelity to this practice for
7:33
Speaker 3: the rest of my life. And that sort of rolled
7:36
Speaker 3: in as as the months rolled in. I actually started
7:40
Speaker 3: by saying, I am going to do this for 30
7:42
Speaker 3: days and let's see what happens. And at the time.
7:45
Speaker 3: It sounds maybe sort of odd, but I spent my
7:50
Speaker 3: career as an art director. So my world is very visual.
7:53
Speaker 3: It was also the same time that Instagram was sort
7:57
Speaker 3: of came to the world. And I thought as I
8:02
Speaker 3: took these walks, I would take one picture every morning
8:06
Speaker 3: and just post it for nobody other than me as
8:09
Speaker 3: this kind of visual diary of what the day was
8:13
Speaker 3: like that I went and It became a subtle accountability partner.
8:18
Speaker 3: And actually, I began to have truly this love affair
8:23
Speaker 3: with a barn that I would walk past. I ended
8:25
Speaker 3: up walking the same route most days. And sort of
8:29
Speaker 3: my first lesson was, gosh, on every single day, that
8:32
Speaker 3: barn's different.
8:34
Speaker 1: The light's different. I'm different.
8:37
Speaker 3: The temperature's different. And so what began to happen was
8:41
Speaker 3: on each walk, these lessons would appear.
8:44
Speaker 1: And they're very subtle.
8:46
Speaker 3: And they don't come with sparkles and fireworks and loud noises.
8:50
Speaker 1: They're very gentle. And I only.
8:56
Speaker 3: Noticed them, these little subtle lessons and shifts, because it
9:00
Speaker 3: was quiet and I was doing it every single day.
9:03
Speaker 3: I mean, people often say to me, Lib, it's just
9:05
Speaker 3: a walk. And I always say, that's exactly the point.
9:08
Speaker 1: That's exactly the point.
9:10
Speaker 2: The simplicity of it and And again, I think the pace,
9:14
Speaker 2: I think that there is something very, you know, you're
9:17
Speaker 2: talking about a way of seeing that this barn that you,
9:21
Speaker 2: I'm going to guess you, I mean, you live in
9:23
Speaker 2: that community, you pass by that barn, there's the barn,
9:25
Speaker 2: there's the barn.
9:26
Speaker 1: It seemed like a static building to you, I'm going
9:29
Speaker 1: to guess, over the years.
9:30
Speaker 2: And then at that different pace, as you say, not
9:34
Speaker 2: only do you see for the first time the barn
9:37
Speaker 2: for what it really is and the ways that it changes,
9:39
Speaker 2: but also you see for the first time, the way
9:42
Speaker 2: you show up different each time that you pass that barn.
9:46
Speaker 2: It's really, I mean, I think that that is one
9:49
Speaker 2: of the curative powers of walking is being able to
9:53
Speaker 2: put yourself in the company of that kind of quiet
9:56
Speaker 2: and simplicity. Yeah.
9:59
Speaker 3: And I would say, Cher, you're exactly right in that
10:02
Speaker 3: I would drive past that barn on a regular basis.
10:04
Speaker 3: In fact, when I was, you know, working this nine
10:07
Speaker 3: to five thing, I commute past it. And what I
10:11
Speaker 3: always say, especially with the work that I was doing,
10:13
Speaker 3: was that barn taught me I was looking at the barn,
10:17
Speaker 3: but I wasn't seeing the barn.
10:21
Speaker 1: And you're so right.
10:22
Speaker 3: At walking at that pace, I began to see it.
10:25
Speaker 3: And I saw, I'll anthropomorphize her for a moment, make
10:29
Speaker 3: her a her.
10:30
Speaker 1: I saw her.
10:30
Speaker 3: Impact on this community. I mean, it's a dairy barn
10:35
Speaker 3: that undoubtedly, when it first built, it fed the community.
10:40
Speaker 3: It housed, you know, the cows that... So it became,
10:46
Speaker 3: it had a place in our world rather than just
10:51
Speaker 3: a structure I was moving past. And to your beautiful point,
10:54
Speaker 3: the only way I saw it was to actually move
10:58
Speaker 3: at the pace of walking, which means that we're embedded
11:03
Speaker 3: into the ecosystem at the right pace.
11:07
Speaker 1: I would call it the, it is the natural pace. Yeah.
11:11
Speaker 1: And that's how we can, so it taught me how
11:13
Speaker 1: to see, not just look.
11:15
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's, for me, on my hike on
11:19
Speaker 2: the PCT, that was so essential because people, I was alone.
11:23
Speaker 2: You sometimes walk with others, but very often you take
11:26
Speaker 2: your walks alone and people would say, well, aren't you
11:28
Speaker 2: lonely or don't you want company? And it was at
11:31
Speaker 2: that pace that I felt in the company of so
11:35
Speaker 2: many other living beings that, you know, that there's a
11:39
Speaker 2: way that we're sealed off. when we're in a car,
11:41
Speaker 2: we're moving at a faster pace, that when you're on foot,
11:44
Speaker 2: you're like, oh, the barn and I are, we're in
11:47
Speaker 2: a relation to each other. It's small as you approach it,
11:51
Speaker 2: it gets bigger as you come closer. The trees, you
11:56
Speaker 2: see the ants crawling through the dirt, you see the
11:59
Speaker 2: fox run by or the cat who's watching you from
12:03
Speaker 2: the porch. And there is something about that that for
12:08
Speaker 2: me feels like I'm in the company of the world,
12:12
Speaker 2: which is, I think, a really powerful feeling when we
12:15
Speaker 2: talk about that thing you were saying, I don't feel whole.
12:19
Speaker 2: When we feel ourselves in company with the world, there's
12:24
Speaker 2: that piece of aloneness, you know, is sort of like held,
12:27
Speaker 2: that burden of aloneness is held by all of the
12:30
Speaker 2: other things around us.
12:32
Speaker 3: That's so beautifully said. That's right. I also think, Cheryl,
12:35
Speaker 3: that as we walk in a place, even those places
12:41
Speaker 3: that are terribly familiar, what happens is because you feel
12:47
Speaker 3: of that place and you feel in relationship to that place,
12:52
Speaker 3: you do fall in love with it and then you
12:54
Speaker 3: want to care for it. So for me, even if
12:58
Speaker 3: I go for a walk in a neighborhood I've never
13:00
Speaker 3: been before and I do it once or twice because
13:02
Speaker 3: I'm traveling, I now care about that place really differently.
13:07
Speaker 3: And I think that's a beautiful thing to bring to
13:10
Speaker 3: the ecosystem in the world, which often you hear it
13:14
Speaker 3: the other way around, which is, you know, we need
13:17
Speaker 3: to care for the places we love. Well, I think
13:19
Speaker 3: we fall in love with places as we move through them.
13:22
Speaker 3: Was there a time on your walk where you really remember,
13:29
Speaker 3: I don't know, call it a tree or... Um, you know, was,
13:35
Speaker 3: was there one place that, where you really remember being
13:39
Speaker 3: acknowledged or seen or held?
13:43
Speaker 1: Yeah.
13:43
Speaker 2: You know, what comes to mind, I mean, certainly I
13:47
Speaker 2: actually came to feel like the Pacific Crest Trail was home.
13:51
Speaker 2: Like it felt like a touch, a touch point in
13:55
Speaker 2: my life.
13:55
Speaker 1: It still does.
13:56
Speaker 2: When I go back to the PCT, I only live,
13:59
Speaker 2: you know, an hour, hour and a half drive from it. Um,
14:02
Speaker 2: I always feel like there's a kind of coming home.
14:04
Speaker 2: But also, I grew up in the wilderness of northern Minnesota.
14:08
Speaker 2: And I remember really understanding that pretty profoundly, this thing
14:13
Speaker 2: you're talking about as a teenager, that I recognized the trees.
14:18
Speaker 2: When I went off to college in the Twin Cities—
14:21
Speaker 2: that was in the city for the first time in
14:22
Speaker 2: my life. But when I would come home, the trees
14:26
Speaker 2: that I didn't even know were familiar to me, the
14:29
Speaker 2: trees that lined the gravel road to my house or
14:32
Speaker 2: that lined my driveway, they seemed like my friends welcoming
14:35
Speaker 2: me home.
14:36
Speaker 1: So I know exactly what you're talking about.
14:38
Speaker 2: And I think this is why we have this shared
14:40
Speaker 2: passion that so many ills of both the self and
14:44
Speaker 2: the world.
14:46
Speaker 1: Can be solved by walking.
14:48
Speaker 2: I mean, that's sort of maybe too simplistic, but I
14:53
Speaker 2: think there's something to it.
15:04
Speaker 3: Oh, I would completely agree. And you and I are
15:06
Speaker 3: talking primarily, I live in a place where I'm walking
15:09
Speaker 3: With a huge wraparound of the natural world, which I
15:13
Speaker 3: feel very fortunate, but I don't think it's exclusive to
15:15
Speaker 3: these places. Well, you and I feel very nourished in
15:18
Speaker 3: these very wild, beautiful places.
15:21
Speaker 1: I too feel it in New York City.
15:24
Speaker 3: There's one pine tree I have a love affair with, truly.
15:28
Speaker 3: Or there's some, you know, some mornings where I'm walking
15:30
Speaker 3: along and the window boxes are, you know, filled with
15:33
Speaker 3: spring flowers. So I think, you know, we're not talking
15:37
Speaker 3: about an experience that is relegated to these big, wild places. And,
15:44
Speaker 3: you know, I often hear people say, well, how do
15:47
Speaker 3: you find the time to do it?
15:49
Speaker 1: And, you.
15:51
Speaker 3: Despite the fact that our walks look, our sort of
15:55
Speaker 3: walking programs look different, I don't think it necessarily has
15:59
Speaker 3: to take up a lot of time. So I always
16:03
Speaker 3: say to people, park as far away as you can
16:05
Speaker 3: from the front door of your market. And just as
16:08
Speaker 3: you're walking, just be quiet in that walk to the
16:11
Speaker 3: front door or walk to the next subway stop. So
16:16
Speaker 3: begin to, you know, we also we also hear people
16:20
Speaker 3: describe themselves, you know, I'm a runner. Well, I now
16:23
Speaker 3: say I'm a walker. I walk everywhere all the time.
16:26
Speaker 3: And it doesn't have to be big and magnificent, although
16:29
Speaker 3: those are pretty special walks. Yours certainly was.
16:32
Speaker 1: It can be.
16:33
Speaker 3: You know what the Italians call a passeggiato, which is
16:36
Speaker 3: after dinner, it's a little walk around the block.
16:39
Speaker 1: Which is supposed to be incredibly good for you too.
16:41
Speaker 1: Your blood sugar is spiking.
16:43
Speaker 2: I mean, I get all the Instagram reels, walk 10
16:45
Speaker 2: minutes every time you put a bite of food in
16:47
Speaker 2: your mouth.
16:49
Speaker 1: But I mean, I love that.
16:51
Speaker 2: And I like, one of the things that I've always
16:54
Speaker 2: thought what's really cool about the way you talk about
16:59
Speaker 2: your walking practice, your daily walking practice, which, you know,
17:01
Speaker 2: a lot of, I walk every day too, not with
17:04
Speaker 2: the kind of dedication as you do, but I pretty
17:09
Speaker 2: much walk every day.
17:10
Speaker 1: And I think a lot of my listeners do.
17:12
Speaker 2: And I think that feeling of, one of the things
17:17
Speaker 2: I love about walking is it's a little bit outside
17:20
Speaker 2: of maybe those kinds of like, higher stakes goals like
17:24
Speaker 2: that we set for ourselves when it comes to fitness
17:26
Speaker 2: or taking care of our health. So walking happens to
17:29
Speaker 2: be really good for you in all these ways that
17:31
Speaker 2: we could go into. But really at core, you know,
17:35
Speaker 2: it's not for a lot of us, you know, like
17:38
Speaker 2: you say, even yourself, even though you have this commitment
17:40
Speaker 2: to walk every day, sometimes like it is through a
17:43
Speaker 2: parking lot, right? That it's about, you know, it's about
17:47
Speaker 2: pleasure or it's about giving yourself like that moment to
17:51
Speaker 2: sort of think or reflect.
17:53
Speaker 1: While you're moving.
17:54
Speaker 2: And you mentioned earlier, you know, this is not about
17:57
Speaker 2: the step count, which I love because I think that,
18:00
Speaker 2: you know, when we turn walking into that, it kind
18:02
Speaker 2: of ruins it a bit. So tell me about your
18:05
Speaker 2: relationship to what I'm talking about, this kind of idea
18:07
Speaker 2: of like athletic achievement versus what.
18:10
Speaker 1: You're doing when you're walking.
18:12
Speaker 3: Well, I'm a recovering high school athlete. So when I
18:16
Speaker 3: first started, honestly, I had this athletic ego and Which
18:21
Speaker 3: took me two years to get over because as I
18:24
Speaker 3: started walking, I'm like, what the hell are you doing, girl?
18:26
Speaker 1: Like, why aren't you running? You've run the marathon.
18:30
Speaker 3: And it took me some real, honestly, internal self-work to
18:35
Speaker 3: get over that this was something beyond a workout, let's say. Again,
18:46
Speaker 3: to your point, it happens to be incredibly good for
18:48
Speaker 3: us for so many reasons. And I used to wear,
18:53
Speaker 3: you know, this is 15 years ago, I used to
18:55
Speaker 3: wear a whoop or some one of those things.
18:56
Speaker 1: I was into data. I love data. I love it.
18:59
Speaker 1: What's my heart rate?
19:01
Speaker 2: Right.
19:02
Speaker 3: And I love seeing progress, right? Like, I think that's,
19:05
Speaker 3: you know, the recovering athlete.
19:07
Speaker 1: I want to get better. I want to get whatever
19:09
Speaker 1: it is. And finally, and there.
19:12
Speaker 3: Was no aha moment, but finally I realized that actually
19:15
Speaker 3: this was something very different. And I took the whoop
19:20
Speaker 3: off and I just started, you know, walking with my thoughts.
19:25
Speaker 3: I often say, you know, I mean, we hear this
19:27
Speaker 3: about Virginia Woolf and certainly, you know, Thoreau, that walking
19:31
Speaker 3: was their best creative space and place. I mean, walking
19:36
Speaker 3: has become my best therapist. I mean, I support therapy,
19:43
Speaker 3: but this walking is my best therapist. It's kind of
19:47
Speaker 3: my best friend. I tell her everything. It's my best
19:51
Speaker 3: creative space. I used to and worked in the advertising world.
19:55
Speaker 3: And we get to a place where our team was stuck. Like, OK,
19:58
Speaker 3: everybody put your shoes on. We're going for a walk,
20:00
Speaker 3: 15 minute walk around town. And we come back and,
20:03
Speaker 3: you know, things would have loosened.
20:05
Speaker 2: Yeah.
20:07
Speaker 3: For me, I'm really grateful that it's really good for
20:10
Speaker 3: us and for our brains and our bodies, but it's
20:15
Speaker 3: become a very different kind of thing for me. So, yes,
20:23
Speaker 3: we know that dementia is reduced. We know our blood
20:26
Speaker 3: sugar is much more in alignment with where it should be.
20:30
Speaker 1: After a walk. But truthfully.
20:33
Speaker 3: It has been a lifesaver. You know, there was one
20:36
Speaker 3: walk I took, Cheryl, now six, seven years ago when
20:40
Speaker 3: I received some news that was truly life-changing and life-changing
20:48
Speaker 3: in a way that I hadn't planned or understood. And it,
20:56
Speaker 3: truth be told, it changed our whole family and it
20:58
Speaker 3: was really heartbreaking. And when I got the information, I
21:02
Speaker 3: went home and I thought to myself, well, I could
21:07
Speaker 3: crawl in bed and pour myself a glass of Bermud
21:10
Speaker 3: and feel really sad and kind of overwhelmed.
21:14
Speaker 2: And probably worse, because we think the bourbon would help
21:17
Speaker 2: and it wouldn't help and make you cry harder.
21:19
Speaker 1: Oh, right.
21:21
Speaker 3: And instead, what I did was put on my shoes
21:24
Speaker 3: and I took this loop by the barn, which is
21:26
Speaker 3: about five miles. And I thought, OK, I'm going to
21:28
Speaker 3: take a loop and then I'm going to come back
21:29
Speaker 3: to my front door after every loop. And just do
21:32
Speaker 3: a body check-in. Like, okay, where am I and what
21:35
Speaker 3: do I need? Do I need hot soup? Do I
21:38
Speaker 3: need a shower? Do I need to call a friend?
21:40
Speaker 3: Do I need to scream? And each time, quite honestly,
21:44
Speaker 3: what came back was you need to keep walking. And
21:47
Speaker 3: some loops, I was literally screaming at the top of
21:51
Speaker 3: my lungs. My poor neighbors, they never checked in with
21:55
Speaker 3: me to the But some loops I was listening to
21:58
Speaker 3: Beyonce Lemonade, which is perhaps a clue as to what
22:01
Speaker 3: was going on.
22:03
Speaker 1: Oh, I wonder what happened.
22:06
Speaker 2: Beyonce's Lemonade, like that moment.
22:10
Speaker 1: Oh, my gosh. Each time you're like, where am I?
22:15
Speaker 1: Where am I? Where am I? How many loops did
22:17
Speaker 1: you do?
22:19
Speaker 3: I don't know the answer to that, but I walked
22:20
Speaker 3: until 7 in the morning. But I had come home
22:23
Speaker 3: at 6 in the morning, and I don't even, you know,
22:25
Speaker 3: I'd taken my woopah, I don't know how many miles.
22:27
Speaker 1: It didn't matter. I took a shower. I went to work.
22:32
Speaker 1: But honestly, you know, for me, the thing is— So
22:34
Speaker 1: you walked all night. You walked all night, Debbie. All night.
22:39
Speaker 1: I mean, that's beautiful. It's heartbreaking, too.
22:41
Speaker 2: That's, you know, how— So by this time, when this happened,
22:48
Speaker 2: walking was like your therapist and friend.
22:50
Speaker 1: You'd established that. You knew you could turn to that.
22:52
Speaker 1: I knew that. Yep. Yep.
22:54
Speaker 3: And that was my first thought. And that's why I'm
22:57
Speaker 3: so grateful to this practice, quite honestly. So when I
22:59
Speaker 3: say it saved me, I don't mean it in a
23:02
Speaker 3: lighthearted way, to be perfectly honest. Yeah, it's a powerful,
23:10
Speaker 3: powerful tool. And I felt very safe walking. I felt very,
23:15
Speaker 3: I mean, I always say, you know, I was so
23:18
Speaker 3: grateful to have my walk, but truth be told, my
23:22
Speaker 3: walk had me.
23:23
Speaker 1: It held me. That's a beautiful way to put it.
23:26
Speaker 1: And I know what you mean.
23:28
Speaker 2: I mean, I think it's interesting because we were just
23:31
Speaker 2: a moment ago talking about how, you know, when we
23:34
Speaker 2: think about walking, it's not about this, like, you know,
23:36
Speaker 2: full-powered athletic achievement and yet walking. like the kind of
23:40
Speaker 2: walk you're describing where you walk for hours and hours,
23:43
Speaker 2: and of course the kinds of walks, well, we've both
23:47
Speaker 2: been on when we take like more rigorous long hikes,
23:50
Speaker 2: is that it is an athletic thing. And I do
23:53
Speaker 2: think that having to endure the physical discomfort and sometimes
23:57
Speaker 2: even pain of moving forward, I can tell you that
24:01
Speaker 2: has been a.
24:02
Speaker 1: Great teacher for me as well. You use that phrase,
24:06
Speaker 1: keep walking, right?
24:07
Speaker 2: And I think that when we put ourselves in that
24:09
Speaker 2: physical situation where we're saying to ourselves, just keep going,
24:13
Speaker 2: keep going, it teaches us a lot about what we
24:16
Speaker 2: can do, what our spirits can do, what our hearts
24:19
Speaker 2: can do when it does feel like I can't go on. Psychologically,
24:24
Speaker 2: the body then says, yes, you can. And that's one
24:29
Speaker 2: thing a hard, long walk can give us.
24:32
Speaker 3: Well, and at the risk of sounding entirely cliche, which
24:36
Speaker 3: it is, it's just take the next best step. It's like,
24:40
Speaker 3: just take the next step. It's one step. We can
24:43
Speaker 3: all take one step. And then one step turns into two,
24:47
Speaker 3: which turns into a mile. I would also say, Cheryl,
24:51
Speaker 3: I'm not particularly proud of this. I think it comes
24:53
Speaker 3: from my athletic background.
24:54
Speaker 1: I was a rower.
24:55
Speaker 3: And one of the things that is really helpful in
24:59
Speaker 3: that context is to be able to ignore what you're feeling.
25:02
Speaker 3: Because in rowing, you're burning up right away. In the
25:05
Speaker 3: first 15, 20 seconds, your body's burning up. And it's
25:08
Speaker 3: a psychological game of how you can navigate that pain
25:13
Speaker 3: and that lactic acid buildup And so I would say
25:16
Speaker 3: that teaching taught me how to not listen to what
25:20
Speaker 3: I was feeling. And the thing I have found with
25:23
Speaker 3: walking is by adding a little bit of motion to
25:26
Speaker 3: my emotions, I am able actually to understand what I
25:31
Speaker 3: am feeling. It is not so rigorous that I'm trying
25:34
Speaker 3: to get through the pain.
25:35
Speaker 1: It is not.
25:38
Speaker 1: You know, I'm not trying to find language for it. Well, again,
25:42
Speaker 1: I love therapy.
25:43
Speaker 3: I always struggled because I was I always felt like, well,
25:47
Speaker 3: if I say I'm sad, I'm not only sad, I'm
25:49
Speaker 3: this and that. And so I would struggle with the vocabulary.
25:53
Speaker 3: But I find when I walk, I'm like, oh. I
25:56
Speaker 3: know what I'm feeling. I'm feeling it here and it's
25:59
Speaker 3: prickly and it's spicy and I know where that's coming from.
26:02
Speaker 1: Right.
26:03
Speaker 3: So by adding this gentle emotion, this gentle motion to
26:08
Speaker 3: these emotions, I'm able to understand it. I might not
26:10
Speaker 3: be able to articulate it back to you, but I
26:14
Speaker 3: understand it and I understand what I'm feeling in any
26:19
Speaker 3: given moment. So I guess that's why I say it's
26:22
Speaker 3: been my best therapist. And there's no expectation of solving
26:27
Speaker 3: it or being with it. It's just holding it. And,
26:32
Speaker 3: you know, on that night I walked all night, it
26:35
Speaker 3: would shift and I would do this check-in. Sometimes it
26:37
Speaker 3: was like just rage up here. Sometimes it was something else.
26:42
Speaker 3: But that gentleness of a walk. You know how when
26:46
Speaker 3: somebody hands you a baby and you just kind of...
26:49
Speaker 3: You just start rocking kind of from hip to hip.
26:54
Speaker 3: That's the movement for me when I walk. It's just
26:57
Speaker 3: this very soothing kind of just natural gesture. I mean,
27:03
Speaker 3: we're built for walking. It's what makes us human. So
27:06
Speaker 3: I would say that it is in its gentleness that
27:10
Speaker 3: a variety of— I've just, I've learned a lot in that,
27:17
Speaker 3: but I'm not sure I can articulate it all, but
27:19
Speaker 3: I've learned to your point in the icy cold and
27:23
Speaker 3: the blisters.
27:23
Speaker 1: But learned a lot. Well, I think too, I mean,
27:27
Speaker 1: you're right.
27:27
Speaker 2: And I don't have all the studies to cite right now,
27:30
Speaker 2: but science backs us up on this. That, you know,
27:32
Speaker 2: the reason we like rock a baby is that is
27:35
Speaker 2: comforting to a baby.
27:36
Speaker 1: We do that when a baby's crying, you know, stay asleep.
27:39
Speaker 2: And that kind of motion that we give ourselves through movement,
27:44
Speaker 2: especially walking, I think is innately comforting. It's not going
27:47
Speaker 2: to take your sorrow away if you're walking and you're sad,
27:50
Speaker 2: but it's going to, in my experience, gentlet, you use
27:55
Speaker 2: that word gentle, which I think is really powerful. I
27:58
Speaker 2: think something else happens. You mentioned this a moment ago,
28:03
Speaker 2: And I want to talk about it because it's really also,
28:06
Speaker 2: I found this to be very true in my life
28:08
Speaker 2: and very important in my work.
28:11
Speaker 1: And that is the.
28:12
Speaker 2: Ways that walking can help us think something through when
28:18
Speaker 2: it comes to our creativity or our work. We both
28:22
Speaker 2: work in creative fields. You, of course, mentioned you were
28:24
Speaker 2: an art director. You know, you've won all the big
28:27
Speaker 2: awards and you're like, you know.
28:30
Speaker 1: had a lot of responsibility and a big vision. And
28:35
Speaker 1: sometimes you get stuck. That happens to me too.
28:38
Speaker 2: And I've gotten to the point, Libby, where walking is
28:41
Speaker 2: now actually a part of my writing process.
28:44
Speaker 1: So what I find is I can't.
28:47
Speaker 2: Know everything about what I'm writing if I'm just sitting
28:52
Speaker 2: there writing it. Like I'll give it all, I'll put
28:56
Speaker 2: it all on the page or on my computer screen.
29:00
Speaker 2: And I'll think that I'm done with a piece. And
29:02
Speaker 2: what I always do is I say, okay, now I'm
29:05
Speaker 2: going to go for a walk. And of course, when
29:07
Speaker 2: I'm writing a longer piece, these walks happen, you know,
29:10
Speaker 2: throughout the process.
29:12
Speaker 1: But I always write and walk and write and walk
29:16
Speaker 1: and write and walk.
29:17
Speaker 2: That is my process. And it's something always comes up
29:22
Speaker 2: on the walk. And it's not that I set out
29:25
Speaker 2: on the walk thinking like, okay, I don't know what.
29:27
Speaker 1: To do with this scene.
29:28
Speaker 2: Sometimes I do, but sometimes I just say, I'm taking
29:30
Speaker 2: a break and I'm going to walk. And what comes
29:33
Speaker 2: to the surface is something I need to know. And
29:36
Speaker 2: it is so much a part of my writing that,
29:38
Speaker 2: like I said, it's just simply part of it. of
29:40
Speaker 2: the process for me. So I wonder if you could
29:42
Speaker 2: talk a bit about how that helped you when you
29:45
Speaker 2: were working as an art director, how that continues to
29:48
Speaker 2: help you creatively when you've got a creative thing that
29:52
Speaker 2: you're trying to tackle or something going on at work.
29:54
Speaker 1: Yeah.
29:55
Speaker 3: But first, I want to know for you, I think
29:57
Speaker 3: I didn't quite realize how integrated the two. I mean,
30:01
Speaker 3: I think I guessed that with you. Do you find
30:06
Speaker 3: I'll answer it a minute. Do you do you find
30:12
Speaker 3: that when you go out for these walks, having written,
30:15
Speaker 3: I mean, You don't have a specific question. Are you
30:18
Speaker 3: often surprised by what comes up? Are you just holding,
30:22
Speaker 3: let's just call it a chapter or a piece of
30:24
Speaker 3: writing with you? Are you sort of actively, consciously thinking.
30:30
Speaker 1: About that writing?
30:31
Speaker 3: Or as you walk in some place, something arises? And
30:34
Speaker 3: do you think the universe is tapping you on the
30:36
Speaker 3: shoulder saying, yes.
30:39
Speaker 2: I do. I mean, once in a while I will,
30:43
Speaker 2: you know, once in a while I will start a
30:44
Speaker 2: walk feeling like, oh, I'm stuck there.
30:46
Speaker 1: Like, I don't know what, you know, but usually it
30:49
Speaker 1: really is what I call a break.
30:51
Speaker 2: And I know, like, I now know that those things
30:55
Speaker 2: will be revealed to me.
30:56
Speaker 1: You know, it's a rare walk when I'm writing. It's
30:59
Speaker 1: a rare walk.
31:00
Speaker 2: That I don't, that something doesn't sort of, the best
31:03
Speaker 2: way I can describe it is something floats to the surface. So,
31:07
Speaker 2: and it floats to the surface the very best when
31:10
Speaker 2: I'm not trying to make it float to the surface,
31:13
Speaker 2: you know, that I just say, okay, I'm not going
31:15
Speaker 2: to consciously think about what I'm writing. I'm just going
31:19
Speaker 2: to walk. And, you know, it is, I do generally
31:24
Speaker 2: avoid listening to music or anything when I'm trying to use,
31:28
Speaker 2: you know, when I'm writing and walking. you know, I
31:30
Speaker 2: do walk in silence and things emerge and always the
31:36
Speaker 2: work is made better for what comes up in the walks.
31:39
Speaker 2: And I could, I like, I could go through, you know,
31:41
Speaker 2: everything I've ever written and be like, there, I had
31:44
Speaker 2: originally written this. And then I went for a walk
31:46
Speaker 2: and I wrote that, you know, and before I send
31:49
Speaker 2: a piece off, I remember a few years ago, I
31:52
Speaker 2: had been hired to write a screenplay about Janis Joplin
31:55
Speaker 2: and I'd worked and worked. I'd, you know, done countless
31:59
Speaker 2: revisions and drafts. And I finished it. And I thought, well,
32:03
Speaker 2: it's not quite done. I have to go for a walk.
32:06
Speaker 2: And in that case, I did listen to music. I
32:08
Speaker 2: listened to like an hour of Janis Joplin's. I listened
32:12
Speaker 2: to her last album, Pearl.
32:14
Speaker 1: And as I was walking, I.
32:19
Speaker 2: Suddenly realized that I had the ending of that screenplay wrong.
32:24
Speaker 2: And I raced home and I rewrote the ending and
32:29
Speaker 2: then I sent it off. And so, you know, it
32:32
Speaker 2: was really like, like that was a very clear example
32:35
Speaker 2: of a walk showing me what I had missed, but
32:39
Speaker 2: it happens over and over again in my, in my work.
32:42
Speaker 1: Yeah. That's, that's really interesting.
32:46
Speaker 3: I guess I've had sort of similar experiences. I, you know,
32:49
Speaker 3: I've just started writing, writing books. And honestly, Cheryl, you
32:54
Speaker 3: were so instrumental because I remember at one point saying,
32:57
Speaker 3: oh my gosh, Cheryl, I'm not an author.
33:00
Speaker 1: I'm not a writer.
33:01
Speaker 3: And you said, well, just tell the story then. But
33:04
Speaker 3: the way walking has been integrated into this, actually, the
33:08
Speaker 3: last book I wrote really happened 100% because of walking.
33:13
Speaker 3: I knew the sort of chapters. And honestly, I walked
33:16
Speaker 3: each chapter into being. Because for me, as a, you know,
33:21
Speaker 3: an aspiring writer, but a craft that is, I do
33:24
Speaker 3: not embody yet. What felt most comfortable for me was
33:30
Speaker 3: to write this outline and then each walk I would
33:33
Speaker 3: take a chapter and I literally would talk it into be,
33:35
Speaker 3: I would just, I would, and I'd use that kind
33:38
Speaker 3: of as a practice. That was my sketch. My sketch was.
33:43
Speaker 1: Writing it as I walked.
33:45
Speaker 3: And so I, And there were a number of occasions,
33:49
Speaker 3: as you just noted, that were completely surprising. And it
33:52
Speaker 3: did feel like the universe just tapping me on the
33:55
Speaker 3: shoulder saying, you know, look over here or consider this.
34:00
Speaker 3: And again, a gentleness to it. But honestly, there's a
34:05
Speaker 3: gentleness to it, but there's also real clarity. I don't
34:09
Speaker 3: actually very often anymore question what comes up on a walk.
34:14
Speaker 3: And it might be a creative thought.
34:16
Speaker 1: It might be. It might be something I'm feeling. I
34:19
Speaker 1: don't question it anymore. I've gotten to a.
34:21
Speaker 3: Place where truth resides for me in those places. And
34:26
Speaker 3: to your point, I mostly walk and have it be
34:29
Speaker 3: quiet so I can hear my heartbeat. I can hear
34:33
Speaker 3: myself without the noise of the, you know, cultural narrative
34:38
Speaker 3: or shoulds and expectations, right? It's kind of where truth
34:46
Speaker 3: lies for me.
34:47
Speaker 1: It's quiet.
34:48
Speaker 3: It's usually early in the morning. I feel very fortunate
34:54
Speaker 3: to feel really safe where I walk. So it is,
34:59
Speaker 3: as you mentioned, home. And it's almost as if home
35:01
Speaker 3: is a verb, right? In each step feels a really
35:08
Speaker 3: safe space. So, yeah, I use it as creative partner.
35:13
Speaker 1: It's really interesting.
35:14
Speaker 2: You say you feel like it's the universe tapping on
35:17
Speaker 2: your shoulder and saying, hey, what about this? And I
35:21
Speaker 2: think of it that way. I also think of it
35:23
Speaker 2: in this almost exact opposite of way. It's actually like
35:27
Speaker 2: the inner, the deepest inner wisdom within us. And what
35:30
Speaker 2: I realized is like, I don't think that there's a
35:31
Speaker 2: difference between those two places.
35:34
Speaker 1: Good point.
35:34
Speaker 2: You know, what we're both calling the universe. And I
35:38
Speaker 2: know exactly what you're talking about. And also that is
35:43
Speaker 2: what is the deepest, wisest truth within us. And I
35:46
Speaker 2: think that that's what oneness is and maybe what wholeness is.
35:50
Speaker 2: And that's what we tap into in walking is that.
35:56
Speaker 1: It's a calm place. It's a simple place. It's a
35:59
Speaker 1: clear place.
36:00
Speaker 2: And it's not a place that says there will be
36:03
Speaker 2: no suffering or things will be easy or you'll always
36:06
Speaker 2: be happy.
36:07
Speaker 1: But it is a place that says you will be okay.
36:11
Speaker 3: No, I was just going to say what's happened to
36:13
Speaker 3: me in these last handful of years is I don't
36:18
Speaker 3: happen to play video games, but I've heard this story
36:20
Speaker 3: enough to assume that this sort of as a framework
36:24
Speaker 3: is mostly true, which is People who play video games
36:29
Speaker 3: are sort of enter this ecosystem. And then the more
36:32
Speaker 3: they play it, they are handed clues or what are
36:38
Speaker 3: called cheat codes to get to the next level. What
36:42
Speaker 3: I feel like is happening on my walk, I am
36:45
Speaker 3: getting clues and the cheat codes are on life and
36:50
Speaker 3: on me that I'm only getting now at year 14.
36:54
Speaker 3: I never would have received this insight at year four,
36:59
Speaker 3: year 10. It's only because I keep playing the game.
37:04
Speaker 3: And that's actually a terrible analogy because I don't think
37:07
Speaker 3: of walking as a game. It's only because I keep
37:10
Speaker 3: walking that, as you beautifully point out, the universe that's
37:15
Speaker 3: in us is saying, oh, here's the next, here's the
37:18
Speaker 3: next step. message or story. And so to me, that's
37:22
Speaker 3: intoxicating because that's one of the reasons I keep walking
37:27
Speaker 3: is sort of like I keep getting handed on quiet
37:31
Speaker 3: mornings in the pouring rain, these lessons, clues, understandings, whispers
37:40
Speaker 3: from the quiet about, honestly, me, about who I am
37:45
Speaker 3: and how how to move through the world. And, you know, it's,
37:52
Speaker 3: I guess, you know, tying back to the story of
37:54
Speaker 3: walking all night long, it's also become a fairly sacred act.
38:00
Speaker 3: It's an act of fidelity to myself. And that word
38:05
Speaker 3: is very.
38:05
Speaker 1: Powerful for me. I am, I, to be faithful.
38:09
Speaker 3: To my commitment to go for a walk is not
38:13
Speaker 3: anything I would ever consider a Changing, breaking. And I'm
38:17
Speaker 3: very flexible on how long, how far. Sometimes I get
38:20
Speaker 3: to the airport early and walk the, you know, the
38:23
Speaker 3: terminal a few times. So it's not a it's but
38:27
Speaker 3: that notion of fidelity places the act in a place
38:31
Speaker 3: of fidelity. sort of extraordinary wisdom. And, you know, it's
38:41
Speaker 3: not anything I can imagine not doing.
38:43
Speaker 1: Yeah.
38:44
Speaker 2: And I think I'm guessing I've been with you before
38:47
Speaker 2: when you're talking about your daily walks and your fidelity
38:51
Speaker 2: to that. And people are, there's always this, this chorus
38:54
Speaker 2: of people, but, but, but what, what about when it's
38:56
Speaker 2: really cold? You know, you live in Massachusetts and it's
38:59
Speaker 2: often really cold at certain times of the year. What
39:01
Speaker 2: about when it's really windy or rainy or really hot or,
39:04
Speaker 2: you know, you always have an answer to that.
39:07
Speaker 1: Um, which is, I just do it. I mean, I'm, I'm,
39:10
Speaker 1: I'm sort of putting it bluntly, but.
39:12
Speaker 2: Like you, I think that there is this, um, feeling
39:18
Speaker 2: in us sometimes that we want to kind of poke
39:20
Speaker 2: holes in this idea that we can be faithful to
39:23
Speaker 2: ourselves and that fidelity can be ironclad sometimes, you know,
39:27
Speaker 2: like that we want to say, we want to question that.
39:30
Speaker 2: But I love the way that you have been, again,
39:32
Speaker 2: that sense of gentleness with yourself. Sometimes it is in
39:35
Speaker 2: an airport or sometimes, yeah, I put a bunch of
39:37
Speaker 2: gear on. And I wanted to ask you about that,
39:40
Speaker 2: like the hardest walks, the days that it does feel like,
39:45
Speaker 2: I don't want to go.
39:46
Speaker 1: What do you do about that? I've got to guess
39:48
Speaker 1: that sometimes you feel. Oh, sure. Or when I'm sick.
39:52
Speaker 1: And I also don't, you know, you and I have
39:55
Speaker 1: talked about this. I also feel safe.
39:58
Speaker 2: Yeah.
39:58
Speaker 1: Right.
39:58
Speaker 3: Like that, especially in the conversations that are happening in
40:01
Speaker 3: our country, I feel safe. And that is a huge thing.
40:04
Speaker 3: I am also able-bodied. I do not, you know, take
40:08
Speaker 3: that for granted. But when I wake up and I'm
40:11
Speaker 3: sort of like, girl, you've been walking for 14 years,
40:13
Speaker 3: go back to bed.
40:14
Speaker 1: We're good.
40:14
Speaker 3: Like it's, it's, there's eight feet of snow on the
40:17
Speaker 3: ground and it's icy, like chill out, like relax. Truth
40:23
Speaker 3: be told, I've come to learn that it is on
40:27
Speaker 3: those days where the universe taps a little louder.
40:31
Speaker 1: And I, I, Always. I have never been on a
40:34
Speaker 1: walk I regretted. Never.
40:37
Speaker 2: Yeah.
40:37
Speaker 1: Never, never, never. And some of those days require a
40:40
Speaker 1: little more gear. But here's the thing, Cheryl.
40:42
Speaker 3: Again, I am so privileged in this, which is if
40:45
Speaker 3: I go out and it's pouring rain and I come home,
40:47
Speaker 3: I'm soaked.
40:48
Speaker 1: I'm out for an hour maybe.
40:50
Speaker 3: And I come home to a warm house with a
40:52
Speaker 3: dryer on. And or if I'm out on a trail
40:56
Speaker 3: and I don't have access to those, a.
41:00
Speaker 1: Little discomfort. There's also a lot of lessons and learning
41:04
Speaker 1: in discomfort. I'm not afraid. I'm not afraid of discomfort.
41:08
Speaker 1: And in fact, I have this. I don't know. I've
41:10
Speaker 1: gotten sort of maniacal about how comfort is kind of
41:12
Speaker 1: killing us. Absolutely. I agree.
41:15
Speaker 3: We don't learn anything about ourselves when we're all comfortable.
41:19
Speaker 3: And everything in life is an app and ease. And
41:22
Speaker 3: I think the greatest opportunity to learn anything about who
41:27
Speaker 3: we are is in those moments of discomfort.
41:30
Speaker 2: We never forget the lesson we learned the hard way, right?
41:33
Speaker 2: And I think that those hard walks teach us who
41:35
Speaker 2: we are, right? They teach us how brave we can
41:38
Speaker 2: be or how strong we can be or how we
41:40
Speaker 2: can endure through things that feel impossible or difficult or
41:44
Speaker 2: at least uncomfortable.
41:46
Speaker 1: At least uncomfortable.
41:47
Speaker 2: Right.
41:47
Speaker 3: A little blister that shows up halfway through a 10
41:49
Speaker 3: mile hike, you know, is you find a way to
41:53
Speaker 3: navigate it.
41:54
Speaker 1: Yeah.
41:54
Speaker 3: You find and it isn't threatening. Is it discomfort? You know,
41:59
Speaker 3: is it uncomfortable?
42:00
Speaker 1: Yes. But that's OK. I love that.
42:03
Speaker 3: And again, truly, I have never regretted a walk.
42:06
Speaker 1: Yeah, I did. Oh, me too. I, you know, I, I. Absolutely. Totally.
42:13
Speaker 2: We're in great agreement here, Libby. I want to talk,
42:15
Speaker 2: you know, you do mention that you are an author
42:19
Speaker 2: and I'm going to tell you, you are a girl.
42:21
Speaker 2: You've published two books, Do Walk, which is all about
42:24
Speaker 2: everything we've been talking about your walk. But I do
42:26
Speaker 2: want to say too, that book that you wrote while
42:29
Speaker 2: you were walking, or at least did a very significant
42:32
Speaker 2: part of the writing process while you're walking is cold
42:36
Speaker 2: joy about your love of recklessly plunging yourself into icy cold.
42:41
Speaker 1: Water around the globe. Fair perspective. That's right. Or gently
42:49
Speaker 1: plunging into the water. I don't know. It seems pretty
42:51
Speaker 1: reckless to me. No, reckless is right. Reckless is good.
42:54
Speaker 2: And, you know, I want to ask you all about
42:57
Speaker 2: that and also this other chapter in your life that
43:01
Speaker 2: has happened since, you know, you stepped out from behind
43:04
Speaker 2: the camera and now you're in front of the.
43:06
Speaker 1: Camera as a model.
43:08
Speaker 2: But before we get into that, because the reason I'm
43:11
Speaker 2: sort of setting this up is I have a Dear
43:13
Speaker 2: Sugar letter, Libby. That is a kind of question about
43:17
Speaker 2: like next chapters. And so I would love to read
43:20
Speaker 2: you the letter and maybe we can talk about some
43:22
Speaker 2: of the things that have happened to you since you
43:26
Speaker 2: hit midlife and didn't even realize you were in midlife.
43:30
Speaker 1: What a ding dong. Can I read the letter to you?
43:34
Speaker 1: I would love it.
43:43
Speaker 2: Dear Sugar, I've always been one to find the adventure,
43:46
Speaker 2: take the risk, throw the party, gather my girlfriends together
43:50
Speaker 2: to go on hikes none of us are in good
43:52
Speaker 2: enough shape for, and we still manage to get to
43:54
Speaker 2: the end. I've basically been a happy, lively person and
43:57
Speaker 2: a doer. I've done full-time job, and I'm still doing
44:01
Speaker 2: that at age 54. I've done 23 years and counting
44:04
Speaker 2: of a good marriage. I've done companion to a small
44:07
Speaker 2: stable of pets, cats, dogs, chickens, and goats. I've done
44:11
Speaker 2: mother to two excellent humans, a boy and a girl,
44:14
Speaker 2: who are now both hundreds of miles away at college
44:17
Speaker 2: in their freshman and sophomore years. And now lately, I'm
44:21
Speaker 2: not sure what to do with myself anymore. I guess
44:24
Speaker 2: I'm not so.
44:25
Speaker 1: Unusual, right?
44:25
Speaker 2: This new emptiness phase is new. I was aware I'd
44:30
Speaker 2: have feelings about it. I did the usual crying when
44:33
Speaker 2: I dropped them off. But now that they're both gone,
44:36
Speaker 2: I feel something more than just emotional about them growing up.
44:39
Speaker 2: I feel like I don't know what to do with myself.
44:42
Speaker 2: I feel like my energy has been sapped or my
44:44
Speaker 2: spark isn't there like it used to be. Do you
44:47
Speaker 2: have any advice for a mom who feels out of
44:50
Speaker 2: sorts at this juncture? My husband and I are best
44:53
Speaker 2: friends and we like being together, but the house feels
44:56
Speaker 2: empty without our kids. I know I'll adjust. I don't
44:59
Speaker 2: want to make it sound like I'm in total despair.
45:02
Speaker 2: How do I step into the next era with my
45:04
Speaker 2: old sense of adventure?
45:06
Speaker 1: Signed, Lost Mama.
45:09
Speaker 2: So we both, my kids are in college right now,
45:13
Speaker 2: sophomore and senior, and I know your kids are adults now,
45:18
Speaker 2: but we've both walked through this transition.
45:22
Speaker 3: Oh, it's such a tender letter. And I don't know
45:27
Speaker 3: if it does this for you too, Cheryl. It takes
45:29
Speaker 3: me back to those days of, you know, dropping kids
45:34
Speaker 3: at college and And you sort of walk away, dropping
45:38
Speaker 3: them off, feeling almost as if, who am I? And
45:43
Speaker 3: what is the next best step? And I think.
45:48
Speaker 1: I'm trying to reflect on that time, which is a
45:50
Speaker 1: little bit ago.
45:51
Speaker 3: But I think I would say, you know, give yourself
45:56
Speaker 3: time to be a little lost. You know, that night
46:02
Speaker 3: I walked all night and I was lost, honestly. And
46:08
Speaker 3: then maybe slowly the being lost turns into a scenic
46:11
Speaker 3: route and then take the scenic route and go gently
46:14
Speaker 3: and slowly take the next best step. And then I
46:18
Speaker 3: think with regards to, you know, your spark, your adventure
46:21
Speaker 3: life isn't over. It's just that the shape of it
46:25
Speaker 3: is changing. It's looking different.
46:28
Speaker 1: Start small.
46:31
Speaker 3: Maybe try and get curious about the things that maybe
46:34
Speaker 3: there's a little bit of a spark, a little bit
46:37
Speaker 3: of interest, a little bit of curiosity. I think that's
46:40
Speaker 3: what happened for me with, you know, writing this book
46:44
Speaker 3: and getting in the cold water and even the modeling.
46:47
Speaker 3: But start with a single step. And maybe, I don't know,
46:50
Speaker 3: maybe it's a pottery class or a book club or
46:52
Speaker 3: a solo hike. Just try some things out. And I
46:55
Speaker 3: would say that In a way, the spark doesn't always
47:00
Speaker 3: return as a lightning bolt. So let things take shape.
47:07
Speaker 1: Be gentle.
47:08
Speaker 3: Try things out. Honestly, just reflecting on that time, it's
47:14
Speaker 3: a tender moment. And so allow yourself in that liminal
47:19
Speaker 3: space to be a little bit lost and then slowly
47:22
Speaker 3: taking the next step, let it turn into a scenic route.
47:28
Speaker 3: But I do think there is something about trying on
47:31
Speaker 3: some things, be curious and see where the sparks show up.
47:36
Speaker 3: I guess that's what happened to me with the cold water.
47:38
Speaker 1: I think that's such great advice.
47:40
Speaker 2: And I want to begin where you did. this idea
47:45
Speaker 2: of like, it's okay to feel sad, you know? And
47:49
Speaker 2: I remember when my kids and, and lost mama, like you,
47:53
Speaker 2: my kids went like one, one after the other, cause
47:55
Speaker 2: they're close in age. And, you know, I remember crying
47:59
Speaker 2: and saying, um, you know, to them, your childhood is
48:03
Speaker 2: over and, uh, which sounds so dramatic, but it's true.
48:07
Speaker 1: That obviously they're still kids. There are all kinds of ways.
48:11
Speaker 1: I'm still very much parenting them. But it's also true.
48:15
Speaker 2: That in a very important era of their lives and
48:18
Speaker 2: our lives ended. And Las Mama, that's what's happening for you.
48:24
Speaker 2: And I think sometimes in this, I don't, I want
48:27
Speaker 2: to say in this culture, maybe it's around the world,
48:28
Speaker 2: but we have this feeling that if we, if an
48:32
Speaker 2: emotion is what we perceive as negative because it's painful,
48:36
Speaker 2: that we're meant to like flee from it as quickly
48:39
Speaker 2: as possible. And I think that it's sometimes important to
48:44
Speaker 2: just accept it for what it is and feel the
48:46
Speaker 2: sorrow of, you know, this is a big change in
48:49
Speaker 2: your family's life. And the kids now are grown up,
48:52
Speaker 2: as you say, and they're moving on to that next chapter.
48:56
Speaker 2: This has come up for me so much in the
48:59
Speaker 2: last now four and a half months since my husband,
49:03
Speaker 2: Brian died.
49:04
Speaker 1: Brian, who I know, he was your friend. as well, Libby. And,
49:09
Speaker 1: you know, people will ask me how I'm doing.
49:11
Speaker 2: And I say, I'm like terribly, deeply, profoundly sad pretty
49:16
Speaker 2: much every minute of my life now.
49:19
Speaker 1: And there's nothing wrong with that.
49:21
Speaker 2: Like that's how I'm supposed to, that's how it feels
49:24
Speaker 2: to lose somebody who's so essential to you.
49:26
Speaker 1: Yes.
49:27
Speaker 2: And that is how I feel. I do not pathologize
49:30
Speaker 2: that feeling. That's what this feels like. And so lost mama,
49:34
Speaker 2: obviously your kids going to college isn't on that level,
49:37
Speaker 2: but it is truly, a passage in your life that
49:42
Speaker 2: does involve embracing some aspect of sorrow. And I think Libby,
49:47
Speaker 2: your next piece of advice is also the advice where
49:49
Speaker 2: I was going to go is, you know, when something
49:53
Speaker 2: is lost, we need to start something new and we
49:56
Speaker 2: need to find the next thing. And Lost Mama, you will.
50:00
Speaker 2: Like if you take Libby's advice, you know, do something,
50:03
Speaker 2: sign up for that pottery class, whatever it is that
50:05
Speaker 2: maybe brings some sense of excitement or joy back to you.
50:10
Speaker 3: Walk in the direction of that. I think that's exactly right.
50:16
Speaker 3: And some of the things that we try in those
50:18
Speaker 3: moments may not sort of become, um, significant or meaningful
50:25
Speaker 3: in our life, but in the trying and the curiosity
50:27
Speaker 3: and the exploring, there is, there is some, something really
50:31
Speaker 3: interesting and, you know, you're exploring different parts of yourself.
50:34
Speaker 3: I mean, um, I've tried all sorts of things that
50:38
Speaker 3: I tried once and thought, okay, that's not really it.
50:41
Speaker 3: But I'm glad I tried. And the curiosity is kind of,
50:46
Speaker 3: it reignites life in us, right? Like, if you're curious
50:52
Speaker 3: about life, you are engaged with life. And what can
50:54
Speaker 3: happen in these moments, yours, Cheryl, certainly, and Lost Mama's,
50:59
Speaker 3: is it's a different kind of grief. It's a different
51:02
Speaker 3: And so in that space, it's hard to then reengage
51:05
Speaker 3: and embrace and love life. And so that I think
51:08
Speaker 3: curiosity is one of those places where we begin to
51:12
Speaker 3: explore and try things out, go very gently and to
51:17
Speaker 3: sort of, you know, Co-opt a Buddhist phrase is enjoy
51:21
Speaker 3: the beginner's mind.
51:22
Speaker 1: I don't know.
51:23
Speaker 3: Half the time I try something, I have no idea
51:25
Speaker 3: what I'm doing and I'm terrible at it. And there's
51:29
Speaker 3: something really joyful and playful in that. And that I
51:34
Speaker 3: do think has kind of the textures of life in it.
51:38
Speaker 3: And that's, I think, where some, you know, hopefully some
51:43
Speaker 3: good healing and sort of redefinition can come from.
51:48
Speaker 1: Yeah. Lost Mama, we wish you all good luck. We do.
51:52
Speaker 2: And maybe, just maybe, Libby, she should plunge herself into
51:56
Speaker 2: some icy cold water.
51:58
Speaker 1: Tell me about that.
51:59
Speaker 2: Okay.
51:59
Speaker 1: I just want to say, I've told you this before.
52:01
Speaker 2: I grew up in northern Minnesota, as you know, and among, like,
52:05
Speaker 2: so many of our neighbors and everything were Finnish immigrants
52:09
Speaker 2: who had, like, saunas in their backyards. And, you know,
52:12
Speaker 2: in the winter, we would go in the sauna and
52:13
Speaker 2: jump into the snowbank. And in the summer, we'd go
52:16
Speaker 2: into the sauna and jump.
52:16
Speaker 1: Into the lake.
52:17
Speaker 2: And that, you know, that's my, I love cold plunging
52:21
Speaker 2: in that one context. I have to be very hot first.
52:26
Speaker 2: But you will just go like regular old body temperature
52:30
Speaker 2: and plunge it.
52:31
Speaker 1: Willy nilly. Willy nilly, recklessly. That's where I draw the line, sister.
52:36
Speaker 1: I totally get it. It's not for everybody. I'm not
52:39
Speaker 1: even sure sometimes it's for me, but here I am. Yeah, honestly. Honestly.
52:43
Speaker 1: You know, I live in New England and we had
52:45
Speaker 1: eight feet of snow last year. Ice all over the place.
52:48
Speaker 3: And for a long time, and I know exactly where
52:50
Speaker 3: this came from, I would say I hate the cold,
52:52
Speaker 3: which is ridiculous. And honestly, I was that jackass who
52:55
Speaker 3: was in the office and somebody would turn the air
52:58
Speaker 3: conditioning down to 78 and I'd like 68. And I'd
53:02
Speaker 3: put on my puffy coat and be all dramatic. In
53:04
Speaker 3: any case, it was about the time of my, you know,
53:09
Speaker 3: all night walk that I began to think I was
53:12
Speaker 3: curious how porous these sort of definitions of ourselves were.
53:19
Speaker 3: So I define myself as a founder, as a mom,
53:22
Speaker 3: as a wife, as a art director. And two of
53:25
Speaker 3: those things began to sort of disappear. And I thought, oh, gosh,
53:30
Speaker 3: who am I? Just as Lost Mama says, I no
53:34
Speaker 3: longer identify with some of these key things. Well, here's
53:38
Speaker 3: this thing over here that I really identify with, which
53:40
Speaker 3: is I hate the cold. And I thought, what if
53:43
Speaker 3: I began to play with that? Do I hate it
53:45
Speaker 3: because I've committed to hating it?
53:47
Speaker 1: Do I really hate it? And there are some people
53:50
Speaker 1: here getting in the cold water. I joined them.
53:53
Speaker 3: And honestly, Cheryl, it was, you know, this is an
53:59
Speaker 3: age old practice, as you know.
54:00
Speaker 1: Yeah. Right.
54:01
Speaker 3: It is something that generations of, you know, the northern
54:05
Speaker 3: countries have been doing. There was this sort of sense
54:09
Speaker 3: of relief. That's the only way I can describe it.
54:11
Speaker 3: What's really happening actually is dopamine is coursing through your body. And,
54:16
Speaker 3: you know, that dopamine feels pretty good.
54:17
Speaker 1: Because your body is saying, we're going to die.
54:20
Speaker 2: Let's have one last blast of joy.
54:22
Speaker 1: Right, right.
54:24
Speaker 3: So, you know, I've come to the place where I
54:27
Speaker 3: am such a believer. There's so many, I believe, health
54:32
Speaker 3: reasons to do it. There's still more research to be done.
54:35
Speaker 3: But again, it's been done for many years. And I
54:37
Speaker 3: will say there are I've gotten in the water with
54:39
Speaker 3: quite a few people for whom anxiety and depression is
54:42
Speaker 3: a dominant narrative in their life. And cold water seems
54:46
Speaker 3: to be an incredible antidote to it. And I think
54:53
Speaker 3: part of the reason I wrote this book, Cold Joy,
54:55
Speaker 3: was the dominant narrative, again, in the culture is was
54:59
Speaker 3: how long and how cold? How long did you stay in?
55:02
Speaker 3: And tell me all the data. And really, the reason
55:05
Speaker 3: I was getting in the water and the reason many
55:07
Speaker 3: of the women I get in the water with was
55:09
Speaker 3: very different.
55:10
Speaker 1: And we didn't look at our watches. We would get in.
55:13
Speaker 1: We would laugh. We have a great time. We get out.
55:16
Speaker 3: And there was no clock involved. Um, and it didn't
55:20
Speaker 3: really matter the temperature. It matters a little.
55:23
Speaker 1: Bit when the water's 32, but that's a different story. Um,
55:27
Speaker 1: I've seen you on Instagram.
55:29
Speaker 2: I've seen you like breaking the ice to get in
55:31
Speaker 2: the damn water. So, but I, you know, I love
55:34
Speaker 2: that about you, Libby. I mean, I will say this
55:36
Speaker 2: is one of the themes I know we've been talking
55:39
Speaker 2: about today too, but knowing you over the years. is
55:43
Speaker 2: I love that you're sort of off the clock. You're
55:47
Speaker 2: not doing the step count, even though it's true, like,
55:51
Speaker 2: and it's often said about you, you walk so much
55:53
Speaker 2: now that you've, you've like walked the circumference of the
55:56
Speaker 2: earth now, you know, maybe a couple of times and,
55:58
Speaker 2: you know, but you're not measuring your success by those
56:03
Speaker 2: traditional measurements. You're saying, What makes me feel whole? What
56:06
Speaker 2: brings me joy? What feels good? Even if sometimes in
56:09
Speaker 2: the short term, it doesn't feel so great. And I
56:12
Speaker 2: think that there's something incredibly important and admirable about that.
56:17
Speaker 2: And it's a great kind of reminder about how we can,
56:23
Speaker 2: that we have those tools available to us when we're
56:26
Speaker 2: struggling or when we're feeling that we don't have a spark.
56:38
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's right. And, you know, there's many
56:41
Speaker 3: ways to get in the water. There's many ways to walk.
56:43
Speaker 3: I'm not sure I have the answer. I'm not sure
56:45
Speaker 3: either of us have the answer, but I think the
56:47
Speaker 3: answer lies within you. And as I said, I started
56:50
Speaker 3: walking with data. I started getting in the cold water
56:53
Speaker 3: with all those narratives, but eventually I got to a
56:57
Speaker 3: place where the guidepost was me and not an external narrative.
57:04
Speaker 3: And You know, we always say when we get in
57:07
Speaker 3: the cold water, the goal is to get to calm.
57:10
Speaker 3: And as soon as you get to calm, get out
57:12
Speaker 3: whenever you want. It may be two minutes today, it
57:14
Speaker 3: may be five minutes. And so, yeah, the inquiry is internal.
57:21
Speaker 3: It's not an external accumulation of success metrics, right? The
57:27
Speaker 3: success metrics is within, it's right here.
57:32
Speaker 1: It's right here. And the quieter. Yeah. Yep. I love it.
57:36
Speaker 3: And the quieter I can get, the quieter I can get,
57:40
Speaker 3: the louder I am able to hear this and I
57:42
Speaker 3: don't hear the noise of all this.
57:45
Speaker 1: Wow.
57:47
Speaker 2: That is a beautiful way to end our conversation. Libby,
57:50
Speaker 2: thank you so much for coming on Mind Over Mountain.
57:55
Speaker 2: It's such an extraordinary podcast, Cheryl. Honestly, I feel mildly
58:00
Speaker 2: inadequate given all the incredible, incredible work people that you've
58:04
Speaker 2: talked to. It's at the top of my list. So
58:08
Speaker 2: thank you for having me.
58:09
Speaker 1: You're right where you belong, sister. I love you too.
58:12
Speaker 1: Thank you. Have a great walk today. Thank you. You too.
58:16
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.
58:18
Speaker 2: If you'd like to write me a letter seeking advice,
58:20
Speaker 2: please send it to me at deardearsugar at gmail.com. And
58:25
Speaker 2: don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe wherever you get
58:28
Speaker 2: your podcasts. Happy trails, and I'll see you next week.
58:32
Speaker 2: Mind Over Mountain with Cheryl Strayed is an iHeart Women's
58:35
Speaker 2: Sports production produced by Brittany Brown and Rodney Brown of
58:38
Speaker 2: Barbara Jean Productions. Supervising producer is Kaylin West at Realm.
58:44
Speaker 2: Associate producer, Amaya Brathwaite. Our executive producers are Molly Barton,
58:49
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58:53
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Speaker 2: and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
59:00
Speaker 1: Happy trails. And I'll see you next week.