Latest / Why We Do What We Do / N-Rays

Transcript

N-Rays · Why We Do What We Do

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: You're listening to Why we Do what we Do? Welcome
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: to Why We Do what we Do. I am your
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: hypothetically irradiated host Abraham.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: And I'm your maybe some sci fi from the fifties
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: host Shane who even before the fifties.
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: We are a psychology podcast. We talk about things that
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: humans and non human animals do, and we happen to
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: be in a week of debunking pseudosciences, which is really fun.
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: So if you're one of our favorite thing us for
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: it really is. If you're joining us for the first time,
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: we hope that you enjoy what you hear in this
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: discussion today. If you're a returning listener, then thank you
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: for joining us again and welcome back either way. If
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: you'd like to support us, you can leave us a
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: rating and a review like subscribe, tell a friend, join
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: us on Patreon. I'll talk more about those things at
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: the end of this discussion. But this episode publishes on
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: February eighteenth, So Happy cow Milked while flying in an
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: airplane Day to those of you who celebrate.
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, of course, of course, it's also crab stuffed Flounder Day,
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: Flounder Founder Flounder, Flounder flounder, flounder, flounder.
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: Sorry, does that mean that the flounder is stuffed with
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: crab or the crab is stuffed with flounder.
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: That reminds me of that bit on The Simpsons when
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: it's like, I'll have your first finest dish stuffed with
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: your second finest dish, and the waiter goes very good, sir,
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: Lobsters stuffed with tacos.
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: Writing on that show is so good.
• 1:40
  Speaker 3: It's so ridiculous, dude.
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: Oh my goodness. All right, it is drink wine Day.
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: Sure, sure, it is eat ice cream for breakfast Day,
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: far more fun.
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, nutritionists disagree. National Battery Day hopefully not like
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: a salt and battery.
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think it's I think it's mostly like
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: celebrating the energizer bunny and stuff like that.
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: Gotcha.
• 2:06
  Speaker 3: It is also National Hate Florida Day, so.
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: We celebrate that on this podcast.
• 2:10
  Speaker 3: Yeah, we celebrate it all the time.
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: You know. It is Pluto Day, and I believe this
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: is Pluto the Planet's possibly Pluto the dog, maybe both.
• 2:19
  Speaker 3: Well, the dwarf planet. Come on, let's be let's be
• 2:21
  Speaker 3: right right.
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, sorry, it's thumb Appreciation Day. I do appreciate my thumbs.
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: It is Alzheimer's Disease and Dementia Staff Education Week week week.
• 2:33
  Speaker 3: Yes it is. It's also build a Better Trade Show
• 2:35
  Speaker 3: image week.
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: That definitely needed a whole week. Yea. It is Love
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: Teaching Week. I do love teaching.
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so great this week. It's national this week.
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: This week, it is a National condom week.
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: We need more than a week for that. It is
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: National date Week. And although it does feel like that'd
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: be related to Valentine's Day, we are in fact talking
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: about the fruit.
• 2:59
  Speaker 3: Yes we are. It's National Green Week.
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: Sure, it's National pancake Week.
• 3:03
  Speaker 3: It is. And it's also Ramadan lovely.
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: But we don't just come in here to talk about
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: the holidays, although it is a thing that we do.
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: But it is time for us to get to our discussion.
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: And as I said, we're sort of doing a pseudo
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: sciencey thing. And before we get into that, we actually
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: have a tiny bit more preamble because it is February,
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: and as many of you may know and many of
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: you will not, it is Black History Month and we
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: have been taking an opportunity this year to profile some
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: important people relevance to that month.
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: Yes, So our profile for this episode is a woman
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: named doctor Rebecca Lee Crumpler.
• 3:38
  Speaker 3: She was born in the early.
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: Eighteen hundreds and is actually a pretty remarkable person. She
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: was the first African American female in specifically African American
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: because she identified as an American. She was black in the
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: United States, but she was the first black female medical
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: doctor in the US, graduating from the New England Female
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: Medical College in eighteen ninety four. So if that tells
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: you anything about kind of like the times and what's
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: going on here. She actually wrote a book called A
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: Book of Medical Discourses, and this is widely considered the
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: first medical text written by a black physician in the
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: United States and focuses on not only human development and like,
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: there's a huge because it comes in two parts. There's
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: a huge part that talks about human development and growth.
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: There's also large sections of it that talk about infant
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: and female care. She specialized treating infants and their ailments
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: and treating women in their ailments, and she spent her
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: entire life working in that space, despite the fact that
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: she was dealing with racism and sexism and all the
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: things that come along with being a black woman in
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: the US. In at the time, I'm sure, and continues
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: to be a white male dominated field and so hugely influential, pioneering,
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: groundbreaking person, and she deserves to get a little bit
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: more credit than she gets in history books.
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: That's awesome, sounds like a really remarkable person and interesting
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: how much how early this was, Like I actually didn't
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: know that this was a thing in the eighteen hundreds.
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: You did say she graduated in eighteen ninety four, but
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: she's had in eighteen ninety five, so I think.
• 5:10
  Speaker 3: I made eighteen sixty four.
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: Sorry, eighteen sixty four, got you dyslexia any thing?
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, oh, just graphia.
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: Here we are, but anyway, very good. All right, that's
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: a great Uh, that's a great profile. So thank you
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: for doing that.
• 5:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure.
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: Okay, let's get to our topic, du joure. Well, we
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: have a little bit of a preamble here, so I
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: think I would start by saying, science is, in my opinion,
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: but arguably the greatest thing humans have ever created. Yes,
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: it is a creation that is made up of human behavior, though,
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: and human behavior is influenced by a lot of factors,
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: and a lot of those factors are not all reasonable,
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: and a lot of those factors are not without bias,
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: meaning that sometimes the human behavior that is part of
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: the fabric of science is flawed. We make mistakes, and
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: the beauty of the scientific process it is a self
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: correcting system that specifically identifies those mistakes and then corrects them.
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: That's kind of its whole point, its whole reason to be.
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: And this is a story about that process working really well.
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: But it's also a story about why it needed to
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: be corrected in the first place.
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, this discussion is about how bias made its way
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: into science and kicked off a couple of years worth
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: of investigations into a thing that didn't exist, although one
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: person remained convinced for decades that it did.
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: Yes, So we're telling the story of prosper Renee Blondeau,
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: who spent a chunk of his career chasing elusive N rays.
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: Have you never heard of them? That makes sense. They
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: were kind of a flash of the pan over a
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: century ago. Will explain what they were purported to be,
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: how they briefly became a topic of interest despite never existing,
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: and what we learned from this experience. Have you heard
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: of Had you heard of N rays before this?
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: Shane no I hadn't heard of N rays, And that's
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: kind of why I made the joke at the beginning
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: of nineteen fifty science fiction, because it feels like that.
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: It feels like something that like Captain America would deal with,
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: you know, like when he was getting like when he
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: was getting those rays, like the Vita rays or whatever.
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: Like it sounds like that. It sounds like something that
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: is like marketed on. Like I love Lucy.
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: I completely see where you're coming from. This did end
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: about four decades before that, but I do say where
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: you're coming from, and I could see them pulling from
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: something like that.
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: For Yeah, Yeah, it just sounds it sounds so like
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: very nineteen fifties fantastical sci fi, like, you know, it
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: just it feels like that I could see a movie about.
• 7:37
  Speaker 3: It, like ooh, beware the N rays, you know, something
• 7:40
  Speaker 3: like that. Sure, So let's get into it, Okay.
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: So before we get into our topic, it's important to
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: point out that in the last sixty ish years, neutron
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: radiation a very real and used in legitimate medical imaging.
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: Because because neutrons can pass through dense materials that are
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: difficult for X rays to penetrate, radiologists called neutron races
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: N rays, which is convenient shorthand, but is a little
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: confusing for those of us who know about the folly
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: of the non existent N rays that preceded them about
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: by about fifty years. So like earlier in the late
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: eighteen hundreds, a little bit of a different conversation.
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: Yes, so let's set the context here. Physics was in
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: the midst of one of the most exciting periods in
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: their history when the story takes place in eighteen eighty three,
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: German physicist Victor Schumann probably pronounced Victor Schumann, who discovered
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: ultraviolet radiation. That was something we didn't know about before,
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: and he discovered it. Of course, this is better known
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: as UV radiation, which is how we now use We
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: use this to cook people in pods. So we also
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: use it to make posters look cool when we're high,
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: and that's we use it to be terrified when we
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: visit hotel rooms.
• 8:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it works, it's effective.
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it has many other actual practical applications as well.
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: But that was an eighteen eighty three that was discovered
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: for the first time.
• 9:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: Now, just two years later, in eighteen eighty five, a
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: German physicist named Wilhelm Conrad Rontgen Ronskin discovered X rays,
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: which were a huge game changer and immediately found purchase
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: in the medical community.
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, all of a sudden, we could look inside bodies
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: and see what was going on, at least with bones
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: and sometimes other matter, and like without having to cut
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: them open.
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that. Could you imagine for a second,
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: like I want you to picture this for a second.
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: I love the idea that the guy that discovered X
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: rays the first time that he looked into a body,
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: or the person that did this, they had never seen
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: a skeleton. Like, I love this idea that they'd never
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: seen a skeleton and they do this and they go
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: and they freak out about what they find because they'd
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: never seen one before. I would love I would love
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: that to be the truth, you know.
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: Yes, Unfortunately, I'd like had skeletons for what for many
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: many hundreds of thousands of years before X rays. Sure,
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: and had seen decomposed bodies, but we had never seen
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: someone's go elton while it was still inside someone's body.
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: Still scary, Yes, I think there was probably very little
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: idea that you could have something like a hairline fracture
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: in a bone because you wouldn't be able to tell
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: that it was actually broken. You'd say, like, I just
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: walk it off, you'll be fine. Rubs short in it, Yeah,
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: that kind of thing. But yeah, So obviously X rays
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: hume huge game changer. That was eighteen eighty five. Like,
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: we're really just at like one hundred and forty years
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: ago at this point. In eighteen ninety six, Henry Baccherel
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: discovered that uranium salts emitted radiation similar to X rays,
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: and around that time, Marie Curie and her husband discovered
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: radium and polonium and coined the term radio activity. So
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: we're already at between eighteen eighty three and eighteen ninety six,
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: just thirteen years, just wave after wave of like reality
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: altering discoveries about things in our universe.
• 10:55
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, So with rapid discoveries happening every year in Germany
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: getting credit for me any of them, our understanding of
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: radiation was only beginning to develop, and everyone was open
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: to new innovations, discoveries and ideas about the newly discovered radiation.
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: So enter our hero or protagonists, our main character, prosper
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: Renee Blondeau. I also saw this written as Renee Prosper
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: Blondeau and also just Renee Blondeau. And by the way,
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: the last name is b l O n d l
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: O T sure, but he's French. Oh, blonde Low. I've
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: been saying it wrong the whole time. Blonde Low something
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: like that is the name. Yes, yes, it's not pronounced
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: ad Low. All right, maybe I said it right the
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: first time. I don't know. But back from the ADS,
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: so we were describing this history of radiation and physics
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: and light and we're learning all of these things and
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: it's a great time for physicists, and Renee blonde Low
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: enters the scene. So let's get into so the history
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: of his life and history a little bit.
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so Renee or Prosper or blonde Low. We'll probably
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: go with blonde Low since that's the most consistent.
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: Was born on July third, eighteen forty nine in Nancy, France,
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: where I love, Actually I love that name for a place, Nancy, France.
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: It feels very it flows really well. Yeah, there's also
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: nice or Niee France.
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Niece is a different place, bah.
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: Very different place.
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: So this is where he spent much of his life
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: and where his work relevant to the story takes place now.
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: His early accomplishments were significant. He developed an instrument that
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: would later be used to measure the speed of light.
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: He created a device to measure the speed of electricity
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: and a conductor for the very first time. He also
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: measured the speed of radio waves, which later confirmed that
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: light was also an electro magnetic wave. He was doing
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: a lot of really good work, Like, he was well respected,
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: well known, and helped develop things that led to later
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: very significant breakthroughs in side and physics.
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and so for as contributions, he received many accolades,
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: awards and recognition. So in the midst of the radiation discoveries,
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: when he announced a new type of radiation, the scientific
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: community listened.
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean they were primed for They're like, hey,
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: this guy knows what he's talking about. Also, it's been
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: a few years since our last major discovery. This makes
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: a lot of sense. Also, he was French, so they
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: could steal a little bit of the limelight from the
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: Germans with respect to the Germans' many contributions to understanding radiation.
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: And so the people of France and Blonde Loeou were
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: quite enthusiastic about this prospect and they're contributing to this
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: burgeoning field of understanding and radiation and physics.
• 13:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely so.
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: As a quick primer, radiation is a form of energy
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: that moves as a wave or as a particle. The
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: heat you feel from a fire is radiation, and there
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: are lots of types of radiation that we're exposed to
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: on a regular basis that are non ionizing and basically
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: harmless to us, at least we have evolved to handle it.
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: Is probably another way to look at it now. High
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: energy radiation can strip the electrons off of atoms or molecules.
• 14:07
  Speaker 3: This is bad for you.
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: It sounds just like it sounds like if there is
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: a type of radiation that is stripping things from you,
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: probably not good, right, Yeah, yeah, so this is bad
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: for you, and enough exposure to this ionizing radiation will
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: result in radiation sickness and if untreated, death. We did
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: it many on this a while back, so it's worth
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: going back and listening to that. Some forms of radiation
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: perfectly fine, some not very good for you.
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. We did a mini on the guy who
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: was like drinking bottles of radiation where for a hot minute,
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: it was like radiation thought was believed to cure everything.
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: It doesn't, particularly ionizing radiation.
• 14:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: Anyway, in the winter of nineteen oh three, blonde Low
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: was investigating some properties of X rays and he was
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: intending to measure the waves of X rays. As we've
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: seen before, he really likes measuring waves of things, and
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: so as part of the experiment, he fired X rays
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: through a quartz prism, which should have done nothing because
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: the experimentation had already shown that quartz prisms did not
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: reflect X rays, so it shouldn't really do anything. And
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: just as a reminder, at this point, X rays are
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: still pretty new. People are very excited about what we
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: can learn about them. So he was doing his own
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: research with X rays. He shoots us through this quartz prism.
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: I believe this is part of a control because they're
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: thinking this shouldn't do anything. We just want to set
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: it up so we can do that and then maybe
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: we'll tweak something about the experiment. However, as he's doing this,
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: out of the corner of his eye, he thought that
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: he observed an electric spark flicker and brightness slightly and
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: the gap between two electrodes.
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: Sure this could not have happened because that would have
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: meant that the prism had reflected the X rays, which
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: it could not. The next most reasonable explanation he had
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: discovered a new form of radiation, of course, so it
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: should have happened. But it did, and it's because there's
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: new radiation involved. After his hometown of Nancy. He named
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: the new radiation or the new rays n rays. So
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: naturally he published his findings to invite review and replication
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: from the scientific community. And hey, this is Blonde Low
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: we're talking about. There must be something to his findings.
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: He is a reputable scientist. Before we get too far
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: into this, I think there's something. There's something really fascinating
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: about this. I think as a scientist, I understand how
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: he got here, right, Hey, this thing happened. I don't
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: understand it. However, I probably wouldn't write a paper on it.
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: I'd probably try to replicate it, but that's just another conversation.
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, a little more time. Yeah.
• 16:31
  Speaker 3: At the time, yeah, yeah, for sure.
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Scientific papers were almost like like personal diaries at
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: this time.
• 16:37
  Speaker 3: They're just like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I.
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: Was doing this thing, and I noticed this thing, and
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: isn't that cool? Huh? So, yes, he's doing this experiment
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: out of the corner of his eyes. He's not looking
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: at it, but he's like, oh, I think I saw
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: this thing get a little brighter over here, and so
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: he's like, that's probably a new form of radiation. I think,
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: is what's happening. That was the sequence of events. And
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: you might hear that and be like that seems far stretched,
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: and I would agree with you, But that's what happened.
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: So he presumed that what was happening was this is
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: a very weak form of radiation, and therefore it was
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: difficult to detect. But it was new and nevertheless came
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: with a host of properties that might make it valuable
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: for medical sciences as well. So, for example, they described
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: that as they researched these waves, they learned that they
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: could pass right through dense materials such as metal or wood,
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: but were stopped by simple materials that would typically allow
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: the passage of light, such as water.
• 17:31
  Speaker 3: Hmm into this thing. Now.
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: He further elaborated on these experiments by placing phosphorescent coded screens,
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: which he claimed would glow slightly when struck by N rays. Great,
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: now the world replicate and explore this natural phenomenon in
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: all its glorious wonder.
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so he's got these cool screens, he's tweaking all
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: these experiments, et cetera. Importantly, he did lay out guidelines
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: for how to conduct these experiments, otherwise they wouldn't work.
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: So it's like sure, he's like, this is how to
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: create the experimental setup so that you can study end rays.
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: That makes sense, Like, that's how a lot of other
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: science works, Like you have to create the appropriate conditions
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: to study your phenomenon of interest, and so he laid
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: out these sort of ground rules here. First, you needed
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: to conduct these experiments in an extremely dark room, Okay, okay,
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: like pitch black, as black as you can get it.
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: Measurement occurred by indirectly observing the phenomenon with the human
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: eyes once they had spent about a half an hour
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: to an hour getting accustomed to the darkness. So you
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: basically have to create this dark room and you sit
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: in that room for like thirty minutes to an hour
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: just waiting, just getting used to the darkness of a room.
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: So that's step one. Second, and this is very important.
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: You must not look directly at the effect of the
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: n rays. Okay, don't look at him, Nope, you look
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: off in a direction that would allow you to notice
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: a slight illumination from your peripheral vision only.
• 19:04
  Speaker 3: Sure.
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: So I remember reading this and thinking to myself, is
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: there any other phenomenon that anyone had ever described to
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: any point where you couldn't look at it to be
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: able to measure it, and where it was best observed
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: without the use of observation?
• 19:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: That was a red flag to me at least, but
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: not to them.
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: Okay, let me ask a question just so I'm clear. Sure,
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: So the phenomenon that they're indirectly observing is illumination. It's
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: a bright flash of light, right, that's related to this,
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: n ray.
• 19:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a dim flash of light. Dim flash of light?
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: Okay, sure, dim flash of light. Let's say okay, either way,
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: flash of light right?
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: Would it not make more sense to conduct this experiment
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: as soon as you walked into a dark room where
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: your eyes are not adjusted, because then you're going to
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: be more sensitive to light. Why would you allow your
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: eyes to adjust the darkness in that space? Like to me,
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: it would seem like you're in a dark room, and
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: you would Maybe I'm wrong, but like to me, it's
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: like if I'm in a dark room and there's a
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: dim light, I'm going to be more sensitive to light
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: when my eyes are not adjusted to the DAR.
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: I see what you're saying, but I actually think that
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: they because it was so weak. It was like if
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: your eyes were just getting adjusted to the darkness when
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: you first walk in, like anything that's not at a
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: certain threshold, like your eyes were prepared to receive a
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: lot of light before. Then you walk into a dark room,
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: and then like something that's barely brighter than the darkness
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: itself would not really register. So I guess it was
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: because it was so weak that it's like you had
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: to have your eyes be like maximum sensitivity to any
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: kind of light coming into them. Yeah, without looking directly
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: at that light. Well, and I.
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: Guess that just exposes how little I know about how
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: eyes work. So so thank you for helping with that. No,
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: I think that makes I think that makes sense. Okay,
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: So at this point in time, nevertheless, all the stuff
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: that we're talking about with these guidelines, they were over
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: one hundred other scientists who started researching and publishing papers
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: on the amazing new n rays over the next year
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: in France. Not that the science didn't make it out
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: of France, but no one else was able to replicate
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: the findings, and one can physicists comedically observed blonde Low
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: was working with quote a radiation so feeble that no
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: one outside of France has been able to detect it
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: at all, which is like, that's such a scathing review.
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's very funny. That's a very funny observation.
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: But also just like man, what a what a bummer there,
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: you know, what a bummer for France, Like, who's trying
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: to discover something new? And like now there now it
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: would become a joke, you know, in that space.
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: And at this point there was still people thinking there
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: might be something here, but for some reason, we're not
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: getting it sure. But anyway, the French scientists were working
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: diligently on the properties of N rays and they made
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: some very remarkable discoveries about N rays. First, almost everything
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: that exists emits M rays N rays. The sun emits
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: N rays, Human bodies emid N rays, mostly from the brain,
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: but everything else also emits N rays except for fresh
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: cut wood. Regular wood would be fine, but not if
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: it was freshly cut, and some treated metals would also
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: not emit N rays. And I feel like there was
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: maybe one specific animal that they tried, but like frogs
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: doing N rays something like that.
• 22:05
  Speaker 3: Interesting.
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: But also N rays might be extremely healthy for you
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: supposedly in these experiments, being mean, N rays at the
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: tongue or parts of the face or the frontal lobe
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: of the brain would heighten your senses. So if this
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: sounds like a mixture of bizarre and too good to
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: be true, you're not wrong.
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it sounds like they have the same
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: benefits that ads have. Okay, so now we've laid a
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: little bit of groundwork around the kind of like what
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: the N rays are in current context and what we've
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: seen as far as the science goes up until a
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: certain point. But this is where skepticism comes to the rescue. Now,
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: perhaps the real hero of the story is an American
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: physicist working at Johns Hopkins. Of course it's an American.
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: It's got to be the American hero, like just so
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: everybody knows that. But maybe the hero is Robert William Wood.
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: That's such an American name, really is, right, Like when
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: you hear that, you're like, that guy probably is a doctor,
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: but also for sure built his own log cabin. So
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: Robert William Wood, who had become enamored with science and
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: physics at an early age. He had also become notorious
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: for debunking pseudosciences. My kind of guy, and was sometimes
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: called a playful genius, mischievous and a prankster. I want
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: to know this guy. I mean, based on that description.
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: Who knows what else he did that might have been
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: really terrible, But that description sounds like somebody I would
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: probably be friends with.
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: Yes, I would have liked Robert Wood, I think, yeah,
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: I agree with I agree with you completely. Sounds like
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: someone who I would love to have as a guest
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: on the show. Or he not dead for a century? Yeah, yeah,
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: yeah sure, Like other scientists around the world. Would was
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: also unable to produce the experiments as they were claimed
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: by Blonde Low, so he went to France to see
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: the experiments for himself, thinking I'm just the I need
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: to go to the belly of the beast observe this
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: in real time. Okay, Yeah, He's like, whatever I'm doing
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: is not working. Let me see what they're doing. I'm
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: gonna figure it out. Yeah.
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: I mean, if that is not a scientist at work,
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: I don't know what it is like Hey, maybe I'm
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: missing something. Let me go ahead and see what's going on,
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: to see if, like, maybe something I'm doing is wrong, right, Like,
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: if you're making this claim, maybe I'm doing something wrong.
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: And he admitted he was doubtful about the veracity of
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: the claims, writing quote, I went, I must confess in
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: a doubting frame of mind, but with the hope that
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: I might be convinced of the reality of this phenomenon,
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: the accounts of which had been read with so much skepticism.
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So, I mean like he is approaching this as
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: like someone who is like legitimately doing critical thinking. He
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: wants to understand he is sort of he's admitting, like
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: I do have a bias about this, but like I want,
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: I want to be convinced, Like, try and show me
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: the evidence. We all know and respect Blondelow. He's made
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: great contributions so far. There's got to be something here.
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: It seems like there's probably something here that I'm missing.
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: Let's find out. Okay, he did seem genuinely interested being
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: convinced of the experimentation, So Blondelow himself and his colleagues
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: set up their most impressive demonstration of n rays, and
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: proceeded to wow Wood Robert Wood over the course of
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: three hours of demonstrations in their laboratory arrangements.
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, or at least they hoped they would wow him.
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: They showed him a setup in which a large steel
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: file was emitting N rays. Wood, for his part, was
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: unable to detect the N rays, so after attempting to
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: observe them, he surreptitiously stole the metal file and replaced
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: it with a piece of wood. Yet, even after the swap,
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: Blondelow and his assistant continued to report seeing the N
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: rays admitted by the no longer present file.
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So, and like they claimed to be able to
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: tell the difference between the types of N rays. So anyway,
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: he's like, just takes their file and they're like, yep,
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: nrays are still there. Clear that it's that file that
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: put on the stand. And remember weren't a dark room
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: at this point. So sure, that was a pretty damning
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: little prank that he played where he changed their experiment
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: and they did not detect a change in their experiment. Sure,
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: in another experiment, they presented a situation in which there
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: were apparently fluctuations and N rays. By placing a lead
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: screen in front of enrays, So they basically were shooting
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: them at a thing, and then they would move a
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: lead screen in front of that thing, and then they
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: would report how they saw the change in the N
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: rays because the red screen was now obstructing the nway's
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: ability to shine through them. Sure, Except would lie. Sometimes
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: he wouldn't place the screen at all. Sometimes he would
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: say that he hadn't placed it, but he had. And
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: Blonde Low and his associate were so incorrect in the
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: reports of when the fluctuations did and didn't happen that,
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: in reflecting on this, Would later wrote, quote, he was
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: almost one hundred percent wrong and called out fluctuations when
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: I had made no movement at all, and that proved
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: a lot, but I held my tongue end quote.
• 27:03
  Speaker 3: So again, this.
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: Whole time, Wood is like going along with their experiments.
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: He's telling them that he's doing what he's doing, but
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: half of the time or more he's lying, and they
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: are not at all able to actually genuinely identify when
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: he has done something or hasn't.
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so Wood has not seen the N rays, and
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: Blonde Low and his colleagues are inaccurately reporting N rays
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: in those arranged conditions, yes, or at least the conditions
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: that wood is setting up right, Well.
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: They set up most of them, well, they set up
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: most of them.
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: But he's like altering them in a way that is
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: consistent with what the research is already showing. Like replacing
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: the file with wood would suggest that they shouldn't see
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: enrays when the wood is present because freshcoat wood is
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: a whole thing. They don't produce end rais And so
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: here we are, right, like, that's that's part of that conversation.
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: And finally, in one experiment, the Krem de la Crem,
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: blonde Low places an aluminum prism which would supposedly refract
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: the N rays into distinct wavelengths that were directly a deservable.
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: After the first demonstration, would ask Blondeload to repeat the experiment. Unbeknownst,
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: the blonde Loa would remove the prism from the experiment,
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: but blondload is assistant reported the same results.
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so they're basically like, if you use an aluminum prism,
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: it will refract the N rays and you can see
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: these distinct patterns and woods like, oh cool, show me again,
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: and then he just steals the prism and they do
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: it again, and like, see, look at these refracted different patterns.
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: That was also pretty damning, so Wood wrote quote, after
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: spending three hours or more and witnessing various experiments, I
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: am not only unable to report a single observation which
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: appeared to indicate the existence of the rays, but left
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: with a very firm conviction that the few experimenters who
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: have obtained positive results have been in some way diluted.
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: End quote.
• 28:50
  Speaker 3: Brutal.
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that is like the nicest brutal takedown ever.
• 28:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: Now.
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: These quotes were taken from an article he published in
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: a journal of Nature after his visit to France. He
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: did not named Blondlow directly, but everyone figured it out
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: on their own.
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: So by the way, he just as a reminder. The
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: first publication of this was in nineteen oh three. By
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: nineteen oh five, no one believed n rays actually existed
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: any longer, except for blonde Low, sure, but the fallout
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: of this devastated his career. He continued working on nrays
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: for a few years, but he retired soon after and
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: reportedly suffered mental and physical health issues, and the last
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: known report that someone gave indicated that he reported still
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: believing in n rays up until nineteen twenty six, at
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: least that was like when he was last asked about it,
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: But he passed away shortly after in nineteen thirty, probably
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: still believing in n rays and hoping that someone would
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: be able to resurrect this line of research that had
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: been gone for at that point twenty five years and
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: written off as an oops in the footnote of History
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: in Science.
• 30:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely so.
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: I think, you know, when you hear this, you kind
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: of go, well, you know, if ny rais don't exist,
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: why are we talking about this? And I think that
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: this is really the crux of this. This episode is
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: like understanding how like we get here in these situations
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: where we're spending so much time studying something that we
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: have been proven to not exist. Right, humans are very
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: good at seeing patterns. We're so good at it that
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: sometimes we see patterns that aren't there, we delude ourselves
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: into believing and then can't see past them to any
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: other possible situation we have. We say, no, I know
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: this pattern exists, I've seen it, I believe it, and
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: then despite evidence to the contrary, we still continue to
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: believe in that pattern.
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: There is a benefit to being able to use like
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: a mental heuristic or shortcut to recognize a pattern and
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: behave with respect to that pattern without necessarily confirming that
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: that pattern really exists or is there. Because a lot
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: of the times that will work if you imagine just
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: basic survival things in cooperation. Being able to see patterns
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: and things and make decisions as part of what makes
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: us stand out among animals as a creature that can
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: do things very very very efficiently by use of tritcuts
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: like this, like these patterns, and sometimes those things send
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: us down the wrong path, we get distracted by them, right,
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: And an enormous part of our experience of the world
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: is filtered through several layers of language that influences what
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: we expect and how we interpret things around us. So
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: you might have one person who makes an unlikely recovery
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: from an illness, and in doing so they credit the
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: human ingenuity that went into developing the interventions that saved
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: their life. They're like, thank goodness that we had these
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: people who figured this out. A different person going through
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: the same experience sees this as evidence of a divine entity. Right,
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: Like if you already have your idea about what the
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: answer is it's a lot easier to see evidence for
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: that answer and a lot harder to see contradictory evidence
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: that says that might not be right. Actually, like, if
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: you're answered all unexplained like all ambiguous phenomenon is it's aliens,
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: then like that's what you see. Whenever there is a
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: new phenomenon, you're like, it's clearly it's got to be aliens.
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: Like that just makes the most sense. Like that's just
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: how a lot of people operate. Is they get good
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: at seeting patterns and things, whether or not those patterns
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: are there, because they're serviceable enough. And again the main
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: point is that they're serviceable in as far as like
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: survival and success of our species, and we use them
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: in a lot of important ways. But also, as I said,
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: they can really send us down the wrong path.
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, And even when we prove ourselves wrong or
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: someone does it for us or both, we can just
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: ignore the counter evidence and move the goalposts so that
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: we can continue believing in what we believe. There's an
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: underappreciated power and the reinforcement gained from correspondence things corresponding
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: with our language about those things. Like that's kind of
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: what we're looking at it can be intoxicating and it's
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: difficult to get past. It's really hard when you start
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: kind of buying in and believing in something, to have
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: evidence to the contrary and start to believe in that
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: new evidence. For some people, it's very difficult.
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So I think this is a cool opportunity. And
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: we've mentioned things like this on the show before. But
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: for our behavior analyst friends who sometimes struggle to see
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: reinforcement that's not super tangible in the form of a
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: direct outcome, is that, like reinforcement for humans exists in
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: an incredibly, incredibly broad spectrum because it can move well
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: past tangible, observable outcomes and into hypothetical and arbitrary ones. Yeah,
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: like winning a game that gets you nothing, like you
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: just people said good job, Like there's so yeah, I
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: mean there are there are tangible benefits to things like
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: in sports where you get paid a huge amount of money,
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: the all that you might get paid either way, but
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: like there are like times when it's like playing rock
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: paper scissors and you win just just to do it,
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: like just because, and it's like there's no stakes, there's
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: no out, there's no anything. But symbolically it was really meaningful,
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: and so finding correspondence between what you believe and what
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: you observe is also very powerful. And belief is just language,
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: and identifying something as correspondence is more language. So like
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: those things I think are something that are useful for
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: us to recognize as being powerful motivators, as being powerful
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: outcomes that drive some of our behavior, is just that
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: when we see correspondence between things and what we want
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: to believe about those things, that strengthens our behavior and
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: ideas about those things and makes them more workable. But
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: the trick is that the correspondence doesn't need to actually exist,
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: We only need to perceive that it could possibly exist.
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: We can draw lines between things that aren't there. That's
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: honestly how a lot of metaphor works. If I describe
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: a metaphor, I'm talking about something that isn't It isn't there,
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: it doesn't exist, we can't observe it. And comparing that
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: to something that is right there in front of us,
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: and that can have a meaningful impact, like we can
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: follow that logic and understand it and even in sometimes
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: change our behaviors just by virtue of that. And all
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: we're doing is using our language to draw correspondence between
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: things either you know that might have some valance too,
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: like these are good comparisons or these are bad comparisons, right,
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: And like just being able to coordinate those it can
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: have a feeling of reward that really facilitates continued engagement
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: in the behaviors around those beliefs.
• 35:42
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely, I think you nailed.
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: It perfect well. I think we nailed an ad break.
• 35:47
  Speaker 3: We certainly did. You're welcome, all.
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: Right, we're back. I do want to say one more
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: thing that, like, what's kind of a cool feature of
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: this that's worth highlighting and going back to this whole
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: discussion about science is like science is this opportunity for
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: human behavior to self correct, right, Like is it is
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: the things that we do and then we figure out
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: that like it's not that effective, And so what we
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: see in this is like this is science doing what
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: science does. Like this is not the first and it
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: won't be the last time that somebody has described a
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: phenomenon that turns out to be different or non existent
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: from what's actually going on. But it's because we work
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: together to make sure that we have validated that phenomenon
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: and we've supported it, that we learn and grow and
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: like that conversation it doesn't have to be confrontational, like
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: it was rough for Blonde Loan in those particular instance.
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: But had he been more willing and open minded to
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: admit his own faults, it probably would have just been
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: like a, oh, I can see why I thought that,
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: but it turns out I was wrong, moving on, going
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: on to the next thing. He probably would have gone
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: on to do great things with his careers, but was
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: so dedicated to the idea they had to support this
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: that it kind of fell apart. But it only took
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: to less than two years from the discovery of N
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: rays to the complete dismantling of N rays for science
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: to fix that process. And like, where at a point
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: right now where our own government in the United States
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: is now pretending that like there's no such thing as
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: as climate change, Like they're just changing the laws and
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: saying like no climate change doesn't harm health. It's fine,
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: everything's fine, it's not real. Look over there, shut up
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: and buy more cars. Sure, And like that's that's the
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: place where like we are in a really dark, depressing,
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: horrible place in the United States where science is absolutely
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: being shoved out of the room in service of essentially money,
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: Like that's just all it comes down to. Is just
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: the only thing that matters to these people is making
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: more and more money, and who cares who dies along
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: the way, Like, as long as I make money, everything's good.
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: And so they just pushed science out the door, and
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: like that will be only to our detriment. Like this,
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: there is no benefit from this.
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: Right absolutely, you know, even like it's its base issue, right,
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: the idea of pursuing a line of questioning that has
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: been demonstrated to be wrong.
• 38:14
  Speaker 3: Like there are.
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: People that are like, yeah, maybe we didn't ask the
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: right question and ensure, but like in the face of
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: definitive proof, we should be asking more clarifying questions, not
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: outright denying evidence, because we're just wasting resources, wasting time,
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: and ultimately, like because we're doing that, we we can't
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: get time back. And because we can't get time back,
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: we are missing opportunities to study and use resources towards
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: actual helpful outcomes. Like here, I would imagine that blond Low,
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: had he given up the the n rays theory, he
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: probably could have spent more time discovering new inventions or
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: new tools or instruments that could have been doing the
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: work that he was doing previously that was really powerful.
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: But now this mind is wasted on on a topic
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: that has been debunked and there's there's not enough evidence
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: to continue that line of inquiry. And who knows what
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: we could have discovered had he been like you know what,
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: I was wrong and we haven't. There's not sufficient proof here.
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: You know, we could have been in a very different space.
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: I think, Yeah, this is why it's so wonderful to
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: be wrong. As we get to learn new things, and
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: probably more importantly, we learn how to spot in our language,
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: how we can cloud our own judgment in things, and
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: like you think about like people who I was trying
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: to imagine putting myself in someone else's sort of body,
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: and like their mind and their experiences and who they
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: are and the things they've learned, and just feeling like
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: once you have committed to a thing, feeling like you
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: just have to stick with it, as opposed to those
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: of us who are sort of more in the scientific
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: field who have learned that like start just saying I
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: was wrong, Yeah, start just admitting that, like, oops, I
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: know how I got here, I know why I thought
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: that this was right, but it was wrong. And that's okay,
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: We're just going to fix it and move on, right,
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: And like, when people have give themselves that out and
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: they've already established that they are someone who can learn
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: from mistakes, who can learn from history, who can.
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: Like correct course as they're going, then it's fine. And Honestly,
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: even people who have like spent their whole life dedicated
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: to just digging in their heels, like if they start
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: learning all of a sudden, like we'll still appreciate that.
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: It's like we are flexible, right, And I'm not just
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: talking about you, and I am talking about humans broadly speaking,
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: like we learned to just sort of roll with the punches.
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: And so when we benefit ourselves so much by allowing
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: ourselves to be wrong and gracefully moving on from that
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: and just admitting, like, yep, mess that one up, too bad,
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: Let's try something different.
• 40:43
  Speaker 3: I guess yea on the next thing.
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, let someone else have their ideas, populate that space
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: and use that to motivate like where we go next.
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: That's I think the sort of main point of this
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: whole discussion is is thinking about when we get stuck
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: in these ruts and acknowledging that, like it's important to
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: be wrong. Like we get to learn things. We've been
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: wrong on this podcast, and we have done corrections on
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: this podcast. And I hope that I get to learn
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: more ways than I'm wrong, so that in the future
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: I get to be more right. Yeah, because if people
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: just keep telling me that I'm right when I'm wrong,
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: then I'm not gonna learn. And like, that is the
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: recipe for making stupid, and I don't want to be stupid.
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: I would like to be someone who has an opportunity
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: to learn and grow and get better at things.
• 41:24
  Speaker 3: Agreed.
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: You could either admit that you're wrong and be stupid
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: or so you can either refuse to admit that you're
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: wrong and be stupid, or you can admit that you're
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: wrong and learn and get better at things.
• 41:32
  Speaker 3: Agreed. I think you nailed it.
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: Cool. Well, I think that's all we have to say
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: about n RAISE.
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And we don't have to say anything else
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: about nrais because they're done.
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: They are done. And you know, I think the other
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: other reason to talk about this is just that it's fun.
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: It's just it's fun to know about these things that
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: happened in the past and just be familiar with history and.
• 41:51
  Speaker 3: Just fun weird science.
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, fun weird science is exactly it. But there is
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: also like a deeper lesson in there, which we've already
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: talked about. So yeah, but I think that's what we
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: have to say about that. So let's go ahead and
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: wrap this one up. And at the end of our
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: discussions we recommend things because it's fun to do that
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: as well. It's not about n rays in this particular case.
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: A matter of fact, it's almost never about the thing
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: that we were discussing. Just a recommendation we like to do.
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: But first we get through the credits and talk about
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: the people who helped make this podcast a podcast. But
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: first we get through some more ads. All right, we're
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: back really quickly. Before we get to recommendations, I would
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: like to say thank you all for listening, thank you
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: for going through this little jaunt down history road with us.
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: It was I had a good time with us. I
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: hope that you did too, And if you would like
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: to support the work that we do, you can head
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: over to Patreon. If you do that, you will get
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: bonus content, add free episodes, early episodes, you get to
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: join a community of awesome people. And at the end
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: of our discussions. I will read the names of the
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: people who are supporting us right now, and we just
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: really appreciate them and all that they do and for
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: continuing to be around with us. So a giant Thank
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: you so much to Mike m Megan, Mike T, Justin
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: KiB Brad, Stephanie, Brian, Ashley, and Kiara. We really really
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: appreciate having you all continue to just help us do
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: our thing.
• 43:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah, y'all are just so so wonderful.
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much to a team of people writing
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: and fact checking from Shane and myself. Thank you for
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: recording with me today, Shane, Thank you for having me.
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: Our social media coordinator is Emma Wilson. And the person
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: who does all of our audio editing sound stuff so
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: that we sound like we're speaking a language that you
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: can understand is Justin, who is now executive producer.
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: I guess yes, we've made in that, yes, somehow, some way.
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: Official titles, Official titles.
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: If you'd like to tell us your thoughts on n
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: rays or any other things in here, or just say
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: hello to us, you can email us directly at info
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: at WWDWWD podcast dot com. You can also reach us
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: on the social media platforms, and we do look forward
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: to hearing from you if you would like to support
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: us in non financial ways. Leaving us a rating is
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: very helpful. It helps us the algorithm put us in
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: more people's feeds as a recommended episode. Leaving a review
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: does that even more. Both of those things are great,
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: And of course just tell a friend so you can
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: say like, hey, I heard this crazy episode about n
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: Rays and then they'll be like, I don't know what
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: that means. And then you'll put your headphones in their
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: ear and they'll go, oh, that was really good, and
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: welcome to the podcast person who just had a headphones
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: shoved into their ears. But I think that that is
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: what we have to say about those things. Are you
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: ready to move on to recommendations or is there something
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: you'd like to add before we do that.
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: No, I think we can do recommendations now. That feels good.
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: Let's recommend some things.
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: Yay, recommendations, All right, folks, I'm gonna recommend some music.
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: I will say this is not for everybody, because if
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: you don't like loud, screechy, like metal hardcore, then you're
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: not gonna like it. So I'm gonna recommend a record
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: from the band Converge. They're one of my favorite bands.
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: They are one of the most influential bands in my life,
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: in my music career, and I don't know that I
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: would be in so many of the bands or even
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: write the music that I write without them. And so
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: they have a record called They just put out a
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: brand new record. It's their ninth full length called Love
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: is Not Enough. I believe it's their ninth full length.
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: Whatever it is, it's up there.
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: They've been around for a while.
• 45:19
  Speaker 3: They've been around for a long.
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: Time, you know, and every time they put out a record,
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: it's flawless, and this is no different. I think that
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: if you like this type of music, then you know Convergeon,
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: you appreciate them. But this record is great, and it's
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: ten songs. It's only thirty one minutes long. Generally speaking,
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: Converge is known for having some like extra long songs
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: somewhere on the record, like anywhere between six and ten minutes,
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: depending on the record. This doesn't have any of that.
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: The longest song is it's almost five minutes and that's it.
• 45:48
  Speaker 3: It's just to me, this record.
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: Plays like it's all go no slow, classic Converge, very punky,
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: compared to some of the other older Converge and just
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: I think, just another perfect entry into their discography. So
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: if you like Converge and you like the type of music,
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: then go listen to it because it's unbelievable.
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: Might be good like exercise music, or doing DIY project music,
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: or doing something very creative kind of having stuff in
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: the background, or if you just really loved listening to
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: talented musicians play cool metal type of music, all of
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: that applies. Yes, agreed, awesome. I've listened to one track
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: off of this so far. I'm looking forward to checking
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: out the rest. This does feel like something that's probably
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: going to make it into a regular rotation for me,
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: So thank you for that recommendation. Yeah, of course, and
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: I am recommending a brand new TV series. It came
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: out immediately after the Super Bowl, and unlike many other
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: streaming services that have returned to a weekly released schedule,
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: they released the entire season all at once, so it
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: was like the season's coming out on February whatever it
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: was eighth, I guess, and then they were like, the
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: whole thing is up now stream the whole thing. This
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: is the TV show called The Burbs. It is on Peacock.
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: It is loosely based off of the nineteen eighty something
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: movie with Tom Hanks called The Urbs. Sure, although it
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: really doesn't take much from that show other than there's
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: a bunch of neighbors in sort of a cul de
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: sac e neighborhood and there are some suspicions and confrontations
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: between them. It is, I would say, more in the
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: genre of like murder, mystery comedy is maybe how do
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: you put it? So, it's pretty funny. It has a
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: great cast. So we've got Keky Palmer, Julia Duffy, Jack Whitehall,
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: Paula Pell, Justin Kirk, Mark Procks. So people would recognize
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: Mark Procks. She was on the he was Nate on
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: the Office, he was on What We Do in the
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: Shadows TV show? Is Colin Robinson? Yeah, that guy? So
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: he's He's and he is between he and Keky Palmer
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: and Paula Pelle. They are the comedy lynchpins of this show.
• 48:04
  Speaker 3: Sure.
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: Anyway, I really enjoy it. They call it dark comedy.
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: It's streaming on Peacock. I thought it was really fun
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: and I think it's maybe nine or ten episodes. It
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: does end on quite a quite a Cliffhanger, so they're
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: definitely planning on more seasons, I'm thinking, but I don't know.
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: I really enjoyed it, and I think other people will too.
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: I thought the cast was great. I thought the show
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: was fun. So, like I said, go check it out.
• 48:27
  Speaker 3: I love it.
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: I'm super stoked. I wanting to watch it because I
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: love the original movie, so I'm really excited to see
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: how how they did it.
• 48:36
  Speaker 3: How well.
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the original movie is really fun, and I haven't
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: seen it in a while, but I've watched it a
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: few times and I really liked it. This was, like
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: I said, it had some like vibes similar to the
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: original movie. Sure, a little else was in common, really,
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: just kind of the setting was what they had in
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: common for the most part.
• 48:56
  Speaker 3: That makes sense.
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: And the fact that it's it's sort of surrounded with
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: like a maybe murder mystery, suspicion of your neighbor type
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: thing with a creepy house going on.
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, that creepy house that every neighborhood has that
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: you're like, something's wrong there.
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah that. So anyway, it's fun, it's light, it's comedy.
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: Go check it out.
• 49:16
  Speaker 3: Love it.
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: I think that those what we have to say about
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: the urbs, and about Converge, and now about n rays.
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: So I think we can wrap this one up. Is
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: there anything I'm forgetting or you'd like to add before
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: we say goodbyes?
• 49:27
  Speaker 3: No, I think that covers it all right.
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: Pseudo Science Week debunking is over this, Abraham is a Shane.
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: We're out.
• 49:35
  Speaker 3: See. Yeah, you've been listening to Why We Do What
• 49:38
  Speaker 3: We Do.
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: You can learn more about this and other episodes by
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: going to WWD WWD.
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: Podcast dot com.
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: Thanks for listening, and we hope you have an awesome
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: day