Latest / FUTURE OF XYZ / Future of Third Places | Robert Hammond | S8 E3

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Future of Third Places | Robert Hammond | S8 E3 · FUTURE OF XYZ

• 00:00:04:00 - 00:00:19:19 Speaker 1 Hello and welcome to this week's edition of Future of XYZ. I couldn't be more honored to introduce our guest today, Robert Hammond. Robert, thank you so much for joining us on the Future of XYZ. 00:00:19:21 - 00:00:21:17 Speaker 2 Thanks for having me. 00:00:21:19 - 00:01:07:05 Speaker 1 this is a really exciting, conversation. for me as a New Yorker, we're talking about third places, the future of third places. We'll get into what that is. I think in urban centers, third places are extremely important. that's my own bias on this. and, Robbie, it's an honor to interview you because you were the co-founder are the co-founder of the High Line, in New York City and friends of the High Line, which developed the High Line and still to this day runs it, as well as founding, the High Line network, which we'll talk about, and for all New Yorkers and actually urbanites everywhere, I think the High Line is kind of 00:01:07:05 - 00:01:10:17 Speaker 1 like the gold standard. So thank you for that. 00:01:10:19 - 00:01:12:08 Speaker 2 Thanks. 00:01:12:10 - 00:01:31:16 Speaker 1 and now obviously we'll get to it as well. But you're the founder of Therme US as well as the culture of bathing. You grew up in San Antonio, Texas, where I've only been once, and there's a long parkway along the river there, the Riverwalk, I think it's called, which probably, has something to do with your vision. 00:01:31:21 - 00:01:53:16 Speaker 1 And I know that you attended my family's long standing alma mater, Princeton, with an honors in history. So we can talk about history, too. So we'll get started. Robby, as we do every episode of Future of XYZ with defining the topic. So to set this conversation up, how do we define third places? 00:01:53:18 - 00:02:20:13 Speaker 2 Yeah. And you know, I never use the term third place actually with most people because it's just like it sounds like urban planning stuff, but to me it's where people make connections. So, you know, it can be the bodega, it can be the grocery store. It doesn't have to be just parks or libraries. It can be certain lobbies of buildings are. 00:02:20:13 - 00:02:41:04 Speaker 2 Certain street corners are. So it's a very loose definition, but it's where people come together and have some kind of interaction. It doesn't have to be like you meet someone new and you meet a new best friend, but it's coming into contact, with other people that you're normally not in contact with in your normal life. 00:02:41:06 - 00:02:49:24 Speaker 1 That makes sense. And so what what are the kind of key characteristics then, that offer, a third, a third place? 00:02:50:01 - 00:03:09:15 Speaker 2 Yeah, I think that that creates that situation where you're with sort of and part of it is like other demographics, socio demographics that you might normally not do it then. So that's like a park is a great example. You know, normally at your job or, you know, social life, you're around the sort of the same people, friends and family. 00:03:09:21 - 00:03:33:10 Speaker 2 Whereas in a park you're in contact with other people that you don't know that have completely different lives. And again, the value of it is not necessarily that you have to strike up a conversation and become friends with them. But to me, that's partly what makes society work, is having those interactions. And I think, you know, we're probably, you know, gated communities. 00:03:33:12 - 00:03:41:19 Speaker 2 the direction that our society is moving is sort of the other direction where you have less and less contact, with people that are different from you. 00:03:41:21 - 00:03:55:21 Speaker 1 Yeah. I mean, there's really an inherent role of these places, I guess, in the cultural exchange and community building aspect of, I mean, I would argue of a free, fair, democratic, diverse community situation. 00:03:55:23 - 00:04:21:11 Speaker 2 In a democracy, you know, if you think about the Greek, I think it's the Ogura, or, you know, if you think about in Europe, sort of that like classic, central square where people came or, you know, the, where you get you, you go get your haircut. You know, it also often has somebody that sort of like the mayor of that space that helps sort of facilitate that. 00:04:21:11 - 00:04:28:10 Speaker 2 And maybe that's a librarian. maybe it's just someone who's often in the park at the same place at the same time. 00:04:28:12 - 00:04:50:10 Speaker 1 That's so interesting. I think, you know, I'm just going back to the definition. It's a sociological definition. And, you know, I think it was Ray Oldenburg. maybe he was at University of Chicago or something. He's an American sociologist, and he created the term to describe exactly what we're talking about, which is these places outside of the home, which is considered the first place or first space. 00:04:50:10 - 00:05:15:02 Speaker 1 Right? Yeah. And then work the workplace, which, of course, is being completely disrupted since Covid and remote work. And we can talk about that. but the workplace is the second place or space. And then this third is exactly what you're describing, which is this, you know, and what we're talking about, which is this third place where people go, you know, where you can communicate and meet people outside of your family and outside of your coworkers. 00:05:15:07 - 00:05:36:24 Speaker 1 Yeah. one of the most famous in you, if you will, in the cultural zeitgeist, at least in America. And you and I are not so different in age, is like the 1980s sitcom. American sitcom, Cheers. Right. and I think about the bar where all the neighbors and everyone went to kvetch, you know, after work. And it really speaks to the healing power also of community. 00:05:36:24 - 00:05:56:19 Speaker 1 I think, I grew up without a TV in L.A., so I'm not the best person, but obviously I've seen cheers and and the theme song Everyone Knows, which is, you know, take a break from your worries where everyone knows your name, right? Where everyone knows your name. can you talk about the historical evolution of third places in this context? 00:05:56:19 - 00:06:06:12 Speaker 1 I know you talk time about the Greek Romans, the European tradition, but like more modern and in American slash, I mean, we have a global audience. So global context. 00:06:06:17 - 00:06:29:10 Speaker 2 Yeah. I mean, it's interesting you bring up bars, you know, because you don't necessarily go to that. But I think it is I mean, if I think about my 20s, that's where I met a lot of people. That's where I would meet people. I mean, it wasn't after work. It was like at 10:00 p.m. on a Friday, or there was this bar, Bowery Bar that people would go to on Tuesday night. 00:06:29:10 - 00:06:55:20 Speaker 2 Long live Bowery bar. Yeah, there was a certain group that was always there on that night. And, you know, that sort of like, I mean, I think one of the the things that this generation, the, the new generate younger people, what I'm hearing, statistically is they're drinking less, they're having less sex, which probably has some connection. you know, and so that means that bars aren't part, aren't playing that role. 00:06:55:22 - 00:07:17:16 Speaker 2 so, you know, I don't even know. I mean, this is where I feel like I play an expert on public space on TV. I'm not really one. so I don't really know. And, you know, I've never I don't think I know. I'm not probably not the best person to say about that history of public space, but I think I can say for me, you know, it's just the digital life is eroding the quality of it. 00:07:17:16 - 00:07:37:15 Speaker 2 Because also when we're in third place is we're often on our phone. Yes. So that decreases, you know, so when you go to a coffee shop in New York, it's great public place. I go to the same one, I'm on my phone on it. Often I bet it's more than half the people are on their phone. Subway's great third space. 00:07:37:17 - 00:07:51:08 Speaker 2 People are on their phone parks, on their phones, and so it's eroding that ability. for even if the places are sort of they look like they're functioning like that, they can't if we're on our phone. 00:07:51:10 - 00:08:14:03 Speaker 1 It's fascinating. I was listening to a different podcast last night, and, they were saying like one of the ways to, to to break this isolation and change your life for in all ways is to have like, even test out micro interactions. So like you're at the grocery store and instead of like, you know, being on your phone while you're waiting in line, like strike up a conversation with the person, you know. 00:08:14:03 - 00:08:32:14 Speaker 1 And I think we're all losing that habit. I mean, I, I then went to, a tennis clinic and one of the guys was like, oh, yeah, I work from home. I totally lost my socialization skills, you know, since the pandemic. So I think you're right. It's digital combined with the pandemic and we need these third, third places more than ever. 00:08:32:16 - 00:08:55:18 Speaker 1 One of the things when you think about a bar or even a barbershop, a barbershop, especially in certain African-American traditions, is very different. And every every kind of culture has its own gathering spot, I think that are kind of, stereotypical, but also real and embedded in a community. But a lot of them have a pay to enter kind of way about them, or implicit understanding that there's an entry fee. 00:08:55:20 - 00:09:22:00 Speaker 1 I think parks historically, you know, and public libraries and as you say, the public square, they don't. And maybe capitalism's impetus towards profit, is part of what's pushing this. Not only the digital, not only the Covid, but also the profitability mandate, what you all created with the High Line, which opened officially its first spur in 2009 and its last spur in 2023. 00:09:22:00 - 00:09:54:18 Speaker 1 And I want to talk about that process a little bit, because it's fascinating and iconic. But when you open, I mean, obviously there is immense amount of landscaping and beauty and, and public gardens, but there's also a lot of art and cultural and even educational programing that is free and accessible to all. Yeah. What's your take on kind of the third place as as a paid to enter versus, free for all model. 00:09:54:18 - 00:09:56:14 Speaker 1 And is there a real value difference? 00:09:56:20 - 00:10:21:11 Speaker 2 Yeah. I mean I think they both can work. I mean, I think we monetize people's attention. In the old days, you didn't I mean, monetize their attention by ads in newspapers or now they're able to monetize their attention in every place. So they want us on the phone. So I think that's that's part of what I guess for me, you know, one of the examples would be high line art like we wanted. 00:10:21:11 - 00:10:53:18 Speaker 2 We ran through the heart of the gallery district, and the gallery district is free. Galleries are free, but they're not really accessible. You don't feel necessarily welcome there. it's just not it's not easy for most people. and so we wanted to bring contemporary art, and it was initially a lot of people said, oh, well, you should maybe do more community art or people aren't going to appreciate, contemporary art or you're going to be alienating people. 00:10:53:20 - 00:11:16:10 Speaker 2 and, and I, you know, part of me was like, maybe they're right. Right. You know, like, sometimes I don't like contemporary art, you know, but we we really wanted to try it because we think it sort of goes with the ethos of the High Line is people are like, oh, people aren't going to appreciate these plantings. You know, these plantings are too sophisticated, or these are plantings that normally see in sort of rich people's gardens. 00:11:16:10 - 00:11:34:19 Speaker 2 So why are you putting them in a public park? People aren't going to treat them well. So we knew that part worked. And so we wanted to try it. And it's become when we do surveys, one of the most popular parts of the park. And people can appreciate. And just like me, I like half the stuff we did. 00:11:34:21 - 00:11:54:19 Speaker 2 You know, I didn't like all of it. And people can appreciate that they realize, okay, that's for me. That's not for me. And different people have different kinds of things that they, you know, connect with. Every once in a while, you have something that's sort of like a winter for a lot of people, like the, the I'm having a go to right now, the pigeon that's up, you know, that seem to resonate. 00:11:54:19 - 00:11:59:08 Speaker 2 Well, I, I like people always like I hate pigeons. I find them terrifying. The rats. 00:11:59:10 - 00:12:00:08 Speaker 1 Flying rats. 00:12:00:10 - 00:12:04:04 Speaker 2 So it also a polarizes, and you know that's also part of it. What can. 00:12:04:05 - 00:12:05:08 Speaker 1 But that's the role of art. 00:12:05:13 - 00:12:09:06 Speaker 2 Yes. Is is it sparks those conversation. 00:12:09:08 - 00:12:15:06 Speaker 1 Yeah, absolutely. And to have it be accessible I mean that's always been public arts mandate right. 00:12:15:12 - 00:12:37:18 Speaker 2 And artists love it because what museums now are expensive. I mean they're 25 bucks. but it's bringing it outside of the galleries, and they design the work to be in those public spaces so that often it gets them to design different works that they normally don't do, but it's giving them an audience they don't have in the gallery museum system. 00:12:37:18 - 00:12:40:00 Speaker 2 So artists love it. 00:12:40:02 - 00:12:43:03 Speaker 1 Absolutely. Yeah. It's a, it's a, it's a different kind of gallery. 00:12:43:05 - 00:12:43:23 Speaker 2 Yeah. 00:12:44:00 - 00:13:03:10 Speaker 1 Yeah, absolutely. and is there a risk that you see to both individuals as well as to society of losing these free access public our third or third places. and do you think we're at risk of that, or do you think we're actually moving in the opposite direction of recognizing the value in creating more? 00:13:03:15 - 00:13:26:09 Speaker 2 I think it's both. I mean, I think people I think there is a backlash, like if you looked at all these trends that, you know, at the end of the year, all these people do trends and, you know, on so many people's list with this going back to like dumb phones or, I mean, I've talked to a lot of people that are looking to start businesses that actually help you get off your phone. 00:13:26:11 - 00:13:43:13 Speaker 2 because I think it it's true. You can't it's really hard. You can't just put down your phone, you can't just say, oh I'm not going to look at my phone while I'm in this park. We are addicted I'm addicted to it. It's very strong. So, you know, people are coming up with ways and again, people are going to have to pay for it. 00:13:43:15 - 00:14:05:21 Speaker 2 you know, in this model of going backwards in some ways to the things we all used to do, and I think the people that are going to be able to do that are wealthier people. You know, it's like the irony of the people that, run that, you know, they don't let their kids have phones, they don't let their kids do stuff. 00:14:05:23 - 00:14:32:10 Speaker 2 And so in some ways, it's and it's, you know, you see it with the wellness movement. It's, it's people that have the money and the time that can eat healthier. And in some ways, they're eating how our grandparents ate. Yeah. and so, you know, but I think this is where everyone always chases the top end of the market. 00:14:32:12 - 00:14:57:00 Speaker 2 and that's where a lot of these things start. but I think there is an opportunity, and I think because that's how our system is focused, is for businesses that try to democratize these things, they're not always going to be free, but they're going to get a larger audience because, sadly, again, our government is moving away from funding these things. 00:14:57:00 - 00:14:58:17 Speaker 1 Yeah, the US government for sure. 00:14:58:20 - 00:15:26:16 Speaker 2 Yeah. And but you know, that's why cities are actually better at it. It's just the cities budget. You know, cities get to control their libraries right now and parks and fund those things. And so, that's why you see just this huge it but those issues tend to transcend political boundaries. I mean, Texas has some of the most innovative public, free public innovated spaces. 00:15:26:18 - 00:15:34:20 Speaker 1 Which is fascinating because it's some of the most I I'll leave it at that. Some of the most like, controlling, you know. 00:15:35:00 - 00:15:45:03 Speaker 2 Yeah. Or politically, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's a red state. Now cities tend to be more they're not all Democratic. So they're both the purple states. 00:15:45:03 - 00:15:47:07 Speaker 1 Yeah but they tend to be more progressive. 00:15:47:07 - 00:15:51:07 Speaker 2 Yeah. But they're investing a lot in these spaces. 00:15:51:09 - 00:16:21:14 Speaker 1 Yeah. Because the value and I think what I want to talk about it in context of the High Line and also your newer work, is, is, you know, there is a deep understanding now that when you build and there is probably always a deep understanding, frankly, when you think about kind of, you know, red, red, red districting and things like not in terms of politics, but like when you put like highways, you know, through urban, you know, underprivileged neighborhoods like you separate and you discard the, the, the community fabric. 00:16:21:16 - 00:16:39:09 Speaker 1 and so we know in urban environments that we need to have these third places where, where people can come together. Otherwise it kind of shreds the fabric of the community. so it makes sense that cities are investing because that's how they're going to keep their cities vibrant and attractive to younger people and businesses and all the things. 00:16:39:11 - 00:16:59:01 Speaker 2 And I think it's a good point. Cities are competing with each other. and it's become more apparent that right now you hear it more with states, you know, Texas competing with California and New York. But, you know that that's what cities are actually doing. It's you don't move to a state necessarily. You do because the taxes. 00:16:59:01 - 00:17:01:05 Speaker 2 But you move to a city. 00:17:01:07 - 00:17:08:20 Speaker 1 I was going to say it's it's the tax structure or the incentive structure of the state versus the, the, the community fabric and the feeling of a city. Right? 00:17:08:20 - 00:17:09:18 Speaker 2 Yeah. 00:17:09:20 - 00:17:33:13 Speaker 1 It's so let's just talk about this project called the High Line. it was multiple decades in the making. I mean, this is a rapid fire series because we could do like an entire season, I think of the Future of XYZ on the High Line specifically. But I want to talk about like, obviously it has become an icon for urban revitalization. 00:17:33:15 - 00:17:38:11 Speaker 1 so quick answer format. What is the High Line for anyone who's listening or watching who doesn't know? 00:17:38:12 - 00:17:45:12 Speaker 2 It's it's an elevated railroad. It's a mile and a half long that was turned into a, a beautiful public park. 00:17:45:14 - 00:17:56:15 Speaker 1 and in New York City’s West Side. Yeah. I'll add. And what was the original vision of you and your co-founder, Joshua David, when you created the nonprofit Conservancy? 00:17:56:17 - 00:18:06:01 Speaker 2 We didn't have a vision. Is that short enough? We had no money. We had no vision and no expertise. And so that's sort of the secret to this success. 00:18:06:03 - 00:18:07:05 Speaker 1 cluelessness. 00:18:07:07 - 00:18:09:14 Speaker 2 Yeah. And, I mean, I was 29. 00:18:10:12 - 00:18:22:09 Speaker 2 But over time, the vision became this, which I'm pointing to a picture behind me of, of the elevated railroad when it was in its wild state, people, fell in love with what it looked like in its wild state. 00:18:22:11 - 00:18:30:12 Speaker 1 And there was a photographer who went up and walked it because it was supposed to be demolished by the Giuliani administration, I think because they're from like the 1800s. 00:18:30:14 - 00:18:53:03 Speaker 2 it's not that old. It's actually my father's age. It was built in the 30s. Yeah. And then Joel Sternfeld too. We we invited him up, and he took these amazing photographs of what it looked like in its wild state. And we learned to talk less and show more, show those pictures more. and not everyone, but a lot of people saw the potential in that. 00:18:53:03 - 00:19:10:10 Speaker 2 And so, you know, we really did not know what, we know we wanted to save it. We knew it had potential, but we did not know what it should become, what even the use like should it become a light rail, should it. And and and then if it is going to become a park, well what should it look like. 00:19:10:12 - 00:19:37:24 Speaker 1 Well, and then you guys did something amazing. And again, without any vision, I don't know how you manage this. You guys must be marketing geniuses because you then did a competition, an open call for entries that really engaged exactly as you said. Like we know nature took it back over, which we have a dearth of in New York City in most urban environments, nature took over this thing that's that's still owned by the railroad company, I think, right as whatever CX or whatever that company is. 00:19:38:01 - 00:19:39:00 Speaker 2 Sorry, I'm looking for something. 00:19:39:06 - 00:19:58:24 Speaker 1 No problem. And then and then and then at the end of the day, you guys started this competition, right? And said, imagine it. And one of the coolest, entries and I don't know, remember, I don't know how many there were, but it's like a pool, right? It was a lap pool that went the whole length of this mile and a half. 00:19:59:01 - 00:20:17:11 Speaker 2 wow. So I'll get to the competition. But there's three things in my life that I'm proud of. Well, I mean, my kids and all that stuff. And at the High Line I'm obviously so proud of the High Line. It's the gift that keeps on giving. It's so fun to say, you know, I’m the co-founder of the High Line, people light up, it's awesome. 00:20:17:13 - 00:20:40:13 Speaker 2 but there's three that was such like a big project. You know, it's again, it's been decades. So I don't I feel proud of it. But it wasn't like one night I went to bed and I was like, I'm so proud that that happened. But there's three things, three projects I've worked on in my life where I went to bed and said, wow, that exceeded my expectations because normally after I do something, 00:20:40:15 - 00:21:00:07 Speaker 2 I have to pretend I like it because people have worked on it and I don't want to disappoint them. But I have to be like, wow, that could have been better, or we could have done this or, you know, I wish and in some ways in the High Line, that's how I feel with the High Line. Like, I, I'm more prone to look at the things we did wrong or the things we could have done differently, because I don't think. 00:21:00:07 - 00:21:01:23 Speaker 1 It's that's the founder's prerogative. 00:21:01:24 - 00:21:24:20 Speaker 2 Yeah. I don't think it's that unvarnished success. There's positive the negatives of the High Line, but this ideas competition in 2003 was one of those things where it almost killed us. Josh and I like we're going to break. We weren't a couple, but you know, we were going to go we're not going to be able to work together because it was so stressful and I kept adding things to make it more stressful. 00:21:24:22 - 00:21:51:01 Speaker 2 We decided to do an exhibition in Grand Central. We decided to do the movie. We decided we wanted to show all 720 entries. And and. Yeah. And so and my board was against it because they were like, why are you saying people can submit unrealistic ideas? Everyone thinks this is like a joke anyway, so people are going to think it's more unrealistic if and if you pick the winner. 00:21:51:01 - 00:22:08:13 Speaker 2 A mile long lap pool and a, urban roller coaster one of my other favorites. you know, people aren't going to think you're you're credible. I'm holding up. So I, I also we did a publication of like some of the winning entries and that's the Urban roller coaster. 00:22:08:13 - 00:22:11:00 Speaker 1 I love it. Can people find this on the High Line dot org? 00:22:11:00 - 00:22:21:15 Speaker 2 No unfortunately, I mean, you can find if you Google the High Line design competition ideas competition, you'll find it on our website. Okay. But not all of them. It's because the entries were in physical boards. 00:22:21:15 - 00:22:24:24 Speaker 1 Right of course it was back in the 90s. 00:22:24:24 - 00:22:31:04 Speaker 2 And so yeah. And then there's the there's a young woman who was a student in Vienna who did the lap pool. 00:22:31:06 - 00:22:33:04 Speaker 1 I love that, I mean, it's so creative. 00:22:33:06 - 00:22:35:07 Speaker 2 If I'm just holding it up on the video. 00:22:35:07 - 00:22:37:09 Speaker 1 It's so amazing. 00:22:37:11 - 00:23:07:15 Speaker 2 For many reasons. but so, so, yeah. So that was one of the proudest moments. And it turns out that was a turning point for us, because in 2003, the Bloomberg was supportive, but we were still fighting. The developers, we had lawsuits, and no one knew what the High Line was. No one even knew the name. And that was a real turning point in terms of people paying attention to it and visibility. 00:23:07:17 - 00:23:18:12 Speaker 2 And within a year, we had gotten city funding. We had resolved one of the lawsuits, and we were able to do a design competition to actually do real designs the next year. 00:23:18:17 - 00:23:33:04 Speaker 1 Well, and let's talk about that because you I mean, the, the people's the teams who won that design competition are some of the biggest names in architecture and landscape architecture in the world. They already were at that time, and they only they weren't. 00:23:33:06 - 00:23:41:19 Speaker 2 No, they don't think so. They'd never neither of the leads had ever built a building or a single landscape you could visit. 00:23:41:21 - 00:23:42:07 Speaker 1 What, really? 00:23:42:22 - 00:24:08:01 Speaker 2 not one. So just to make for people, to be clear, in 2003 we did an ideas competition. So that was 720 people. Those were not most of them were not famous architects. Because, you know, we did that. No one thought we were going to build it. The following year we did a design competition. And so that one, although we didn't really have all the money or the rights, people felt more confident that they were going to get to design it. 00:24:08:03 - 00:24:26:16 Speaker 2 So we had a lot of famous people enter that. But the winning one was and the lead, it's important to say, was the landscape architect James Corner Field Operations, who was head of the landscape department at Penn. There was not a single garden you could go to that he could visit it. He didn't even design a rich person's garden. 00:24:26:18 - 00:24:45:16 Speaker 2 He had he had done designs for fresh kills, but those had not been built and had no plans to be built. It only got built like ten years later. Oh my goodness. And he had written some books that didn't even have very many pictures, you know, because I was like, I'm not going to read this landscape book. And it was all, you know, had a beautiful cover, but it was all theoretical. 00:24:45:18 - 00:24:47:11 Speaker 1 That's incredible. I had no idea. 00:24:47:15 - 00:25:21:07 Speaker 2 Scofidio and Renfro had had an exhibition at Whitney the year before, but there was no architecture. It was about their conceptual projects. I have the book from that, that exhibition, you know, it was about building like glasses with syringes and walls that fell apart, and theater sets. They designed a lot of theater sets. The only thing they had built was a building called Blur, which is a whole bunch of steam nozzles on a lake in Zurich that, like, turned into a cloud. 00:25:21:07 - 00:25:43:22 Speaker 2 And it was only up for a month. And so they and Piet Oudolf off and actually built the most who was the garden designer. And it built two landscapes and in, in the US. So and it was a real credit to the Bloomberg administration that they let us pick a team. that had not built anything. They got selected to build the IC. 00:25:43:22 - 00:25:57:16 Speaker 2 They were the IC museum was in construction and they had been selected to work on Lincoln Center, but nothing had been built. Nothing had been designed, nothing had. You know, no one knew if that was going to really happen. 00:25:57:18 - 00:26:04:05 Speaker 1 Okay, Robbie, I'm blown away. But that's super fascinating. But it also begs the question to come back to third places or. 00:26:04:05 - 00:26:05:20 Speaker 2 Why did we pick them? 00:26:05:22 - 00:26:24:21 Speaker 1 Well, I mean, was there a shared? I say, you said that you didn't have a vision, but after the competition was 720 entries and it's imagining and you get funding and all the rest of it and there's, there's obviously like, things are starting to heat up. There has to be an understanding now that this could be an enormous, iconic contribution to the city of New York. 00:26:25:00 - 00:26:43:09 Speaker 2 But there was no vision for what it would look like. And that was the thing that was disappointing about the ideas competition. We sort of thought, oh, someone's going to come up with an amazing idea, you know, or a look and feel that we can we the community and the city can get behind it. They weren't that's not what the entries were. 00:26:43:09 - 00:27:04:11 Speaker 2 They were not real. And that was the downside of not being realistic, they were fun. But but a roller coaster is not an esthetic vision. And so when we wrote the brief for the ideas competition, it was very open ended. We wanted something, I should look at it and see what we said, but it wasn't like it needed to be natural. 00:27:04:11 - 00:27:23:01 Speaker 2 I mean, one of the winners, the finalists, was Zaha Hadid, who put a whole bunch of astroturf on it. You know, Stephen Hall basically used it as a place for structures. So it wasn't even, say green. It was a site for architecture. 00:27:23:03 - 00:27:35:09 Speaker 1 It's fascinating because when you show the picture that sits above you, which is this original, you know, yeah. Phenomenal. Like, as nature took the elevated train tracks back over, it seems so obvious. 00:27:35:11 - 00:27:37:00 Speaker 2 But that's in hindsight. 00:27:37:02 - 00:27:38:07 Speaker 1 Yeah, of course that's hindsight. 00:27:38:10 - 00:27:56:13 Speaker 2 I mean, in the beginning we didn't. Yeah, I think we knew we wanted to become a park. I mean, but you know, we even looked in the Bloomberg administration. Should this be under DOT, should we be a cultural institution? Right. And it really was Adrian Benepe. He was the parks commissioner said I'll take the liability. And so we were like, okay, let's go with him. 00:27:56:15 - 00:28:01:03 Speaker 1 That's so amazing. And it is still to this day run by friends of the High Line. 00:28:01:05 - 00:28:03:00 Speaker 2 But under the jurisdiction of the parks department. 00:28:03:02 - 00:28:06:06 Speaker 1 Of the New York City Parks Department, which is amazing. 00:28:06:06 - 00:28:10:06 Speaker 2 And sometimes I wish you'd done it as a cultural because we had more leeway. 00:28:10:06 - 00:28:32:13 Speaker 1 But freedom. But it's it's so spectacular. Yeah. Okay. I'm going to pivot off of this because we're coming I, we're coming close. But I do want to talk about, kind of the next generation of public spaces, because one of the things that you then founded, which I think is interesting, is the High Line network, which is based on these decades of learnings, is hindsight learnings, probably, which is a community. 00:28:32:13 - 00:28:50:01 Speaker 1 If I've understood correctly, a community of infrastructure reuse projects that create vibrant and equitable public spaces. Yeah. just talk about what that means, because I, I've come to understand that the High Line really becomes like the reference point for urban redevelopment in a, in a lot of the world. 00:28:50:07 - 00:29:13:04 Speaker 2 Yeah. And what we thought was important, it was at a time when we were looking at what were the mistakes, and the mistakes were around sort of equitable development. Now, not that many people were displaced. The people in the place where people like me that rent went from 2500 to 5000, but, you know, the low income, two low income communities that were there had permanent public housing, so they weren’t displaced. 00:29:13:04 - 00:29:48:13 Speaker 2 The main issue was that they didn't benefit in the same way that the benefits weren't spread. And when we opened, it wasn't very diverse. We were able to change that over time. So those were the lessons we wanted to teach is how could you from the start, be more equitable and use the value that's created to do whatever that neighborhood needed, preserve housing, preserve local businesses, you know, and so the network was really started not partly, yes, as a model, but I met with all these people that were starting these things. 00:29:48:13 - 00:30:12:07 Speaker 2 They didn't want advice on design. They didn't want advice, you know, they wanted advice on fundraising, and they needed moral support and they needed help. How do you. So it's a high line. I wasn't a role model for equitable development. What is, and so it really was started as how do you learn? I mean, again, I'm, I sort of lead with the negative. 00:30:12:07 - 00:30:44:12 Speaker 2 How do you learn from the highlighted mistakes or, you know, the challenges. And it started out with like 15 projects. Now there's over 50 maybe. and it really is. Yeah. It's a network of the and you know, there are a few elevated railroads, but they're, you know, the LA River is the biggest thing. Yeah. but there's the bent line that's on, you know, around some of them are on old airport, some are run basically they're usually in the leftover parts of the city. 00:30:44:14 - 00:30:46:20 Speaker 2 that was used for some other industrial. 00:30:46:20 - 00:30:48:05 Speaker 1 Industrial infrastructure. 00:30:48:05 - 00:30:50:00 Speaker 2 That now is being reclaimed. 00:30:50:02 - 00:30:57:06 Speaker 1 It's very cool. And and Europe obviously has a lot more funding for this. And Asia has a lot more vision. And, long termism. 00:30:57:08 - 00:31:03:06 Speaker 2 The issue is, you know, in Asia, both places, it's always all public. 00:31:03:06 - 00:31:03:18 Speaker 1 Yes. 00:31:03:24 - 00:31:29:04 Speaker 2 And so they tend to it's harder for them to be innovative because I don't know, it's a public. And so the US tend to be public private partnerships, which is a downside because you're depending on rich people to pay for them, but it enables them to be more independent from government. Which makes them more innovative sometimes. 00:31:29:05 - 00:31:53:14 Speaker 1 Really, really, really interesting actually. So before we get to the kind of, the last two questions which are both reasonably sized questions, the city of Boston actually has an interesting definition. They actively say third spaces are places that contribute to our collective well-being, places where we welcome, connect and create with others. Obviously, that's what you did at the High Line. 00:31:53:14 - 00:32:20:04 Speaker 1 That's what the High Line Network explores how to do, where people can have access to these vibrant public spaces and connection. And, but you've now pivoted, to something totally different, which is this Therme USA plus, like, the culture of bathing, founder. So talk about kind of the public baths in the context of public places or a third places. 00:32:20:06 - 00:32:45:19 Speaker 2 And so I work for a company called Therme Group, which is a European company. We have five massive bathhouses in Europe. They call them thermos. the, the largest one is 700,000ft². So that's like Yankee Stadium. the smallest is 300,000ft². So that's like bigger than the Whitney. Very big, multiple pools, 30 saunas. It's basically like the ancient Roman baths. 00:32:45:19 - 00:33:08:19 Speaker 2 It's actually similar in, in in size. We have and they're mass market products. I mean, or I should say from marketing standpoint accessible. But, you know, we have 5 million visitors. wow. 60% of the people in Bucharest have visited one of our facilities where we have our newest one. and so, you know, I didn't start that. 00:33:08:19 - 00:33:23:02 Speaker 2 Amazing people have started and run that. What what they hired John Altshuler and I, to do, who's is my chairman is to bring them to the US. and so I just want to be clear. I am not the founder. 00:33:23:02 - 00:33:24:08 Speaker 1 You're not therir founder, you're the president. 00:33:24:10 - 00:33:26:20 Speaker 2 I was one of the early employees of Therme US. But I'm not the founder. 00:33:26:21 - 00:33:27:13 Speaker 1 Got it? Got it. 00:33:27:22 - 00:33:47:08 Speaker 2 by any means. and so I'm just trying. When I discovered this company, I lived, and I had a Rome prize, and I lived in Rome for a year after we opened the High Line. And I was obsessed with the Russian baths. And I was like, how after 2000 years, can't we have these things? We have all the other things the Romans have. 00:33:47:08 - 00:34:07:22 Speaker 2 We have stadiums, we have water supplies, we have heating, you know, but we can't have a giant room, you know, baths. And so when I saw these things, I was like, wow, someone has figured it out. I want to bring this to the US. and so we have two sites, we have a site in downtown Dallas and one on the river in Washington, D.C.. 00:34:07:24 - 00:34:24:06 Speaker 2 My friends, I've been doing this now for almost four years. My friends keep asking when it's going to open. These are like high line timelines. I mean, the earliest I think we would open is probably 4 to 5 years. So it just takes a long time to build something that big. And we want to do it in downtowns. 00:34:24:06 - 00:34:47:17 Speaker 2 We don't want to do it in the suburbs. So it's, you know, connected to public transportation. So it actually is part of the fabric of the city. Most infrastructure now built in cities is built outside, you know, especially these big projects. They go outside into the suburbs. and we were committed to having them happen in downtown. 00:34:47:19 - 00:34:57:12 Speaker 1 Did you have an initial inspiration as a kid, Robby, like that gave you, like, what fueled this initial initial passion for these third places? And I'm, I know. 00:34:57:15 - 00:34:57:23 Speaker 2 I don't. 00:34:58:03 - 00:34:59:02 Speaker 1 Use the word, but. 00:34:59:02 - 00:35:19:00 Speaker 2 Yeah, I definitely didn't have a passion for their places. I never read Jane Jacobs until actually we got a Jane Jacobs medal. Like, embarrassingly like the years after we opened the High Line. And then I ended up doing the documentary of her. But I've only read the book once, so I'm not like an expert. You don't need to be an expert in any of these things to do them. 00:35:19:02 - 00:35:44:12 Speaker 2 but I was raised by two really special parents. and so that 100% of all the inspiration really, you know, my, my dad he was in the jewelry business, but his passions were parks, architecture and preservation. So I found a career that combined all I didn't even connect that until much later. And my mom was a very, unusual. 00:35:44:12 - 00:36:00:13 Speaker 2 I mean, now I should be called an artist. At the time, she was like an eccentric housewife, but taught me, you know, to look for beauty in unusual place, in trash, unusual places. So I had a very unusual upbringing. 00:36:00:15 - 00:36:02:10 Speaker 1 That's, That's. Those are gifts. 00:36:02:16 - 00:36:16:19 Speaker 2 And the water in San Antonio. Because the founder of Central Park Conservancy grew up next door to my dad. And in San Antonio and the founder of the Battery Park Conservancy is also from San Antonio. 00:36:16:21 - 00:36:19:06 Speaker 1 Whoa! Shout out to San Antonio it turns out. 00:36:19:08 - 00:36:34:04 Speaker 2 I don't think it's the Riverwalk. I mean, no one in San Antonio people don't. I mean, sometimes I always said, oh my God, I don't want the High Line to become like a Riverwalk. And now sometimes I think, oh my God. The High Line became like the Riverwalk. And it's so popular among tourists. Yeah, but, 00:36:34:06 - 00:36:54:04 Speaker 1 It's good for the city. It's good for. It's good for the city. It's good for everything. So our final question is every episode or maybe, if we're anticipating 25 ish years in the future. So that puts us towards like 2050. What's your greatest hope for the future of third places? 00:36:54:06 - 00:37:17:23 Speaker 2 Yeah. Well, I mean, the other thing we didn't talk about is my passion for I'm trying to build giant bath house, you know, but my passion is really for bathing, which is really meant to be on every block. And I really think. And, and there's, we don't do them in the US, but a lot of countries are coming up with really innovative ways to do public bathing, bath houses. 00:37:17:23 - 00:37:46:05 Speaker 2 And in some ways we had them under Robert Moses. You know, they called some of those things that actually says bath House. Yeah, that he built. So, my dream, you know, obviously world peace all that, but is also, that bathing becomes a way for people to actually because the thing about bathing is you have a physical experience and you're actually in sweating without all the clothes and physical markers that you normally have. 00:37:46:07 - 00:37:54:03 Speaker 2 and you're much more, it's just a way of having a social connections that we really don't have anything like it. 00:37:54:05 - 00:38:01:07 Speaker 1 Yeah. No, it definitely it heralds back to something very, very historic and long standing in human culture. 00:38:01:09 - 00:38:02:02 Speaker 2 Yeah. 00:38:02:04 - 00:38:12:24 Speaker 1 I, well, you're well on your way to that, even if the timelines are long, so congratulations on that. And, Robert Robert Hammond, thank you so much again for joining us on Future of XYZ. This was extraordinary. 00:38:13:02 - 00:38:14:23 Speaker 2 Great. Thanks for having me. 00:38:15:00 - 00:38:47:00 Speaker 1 For everyone listening. Robbie pulled out a bunch of books and visual images during the course of this conversation about the High Line that you may want to watch on YouTube. If you're watching on YouTube, you can always access this and share it and leave a five star review. Hopefully, anywhere you get your favorite podcast, you can follow a Future of XYZ on Instagram or visit ifdesign.com/xyz for all of the links and shows, we're now up to almost 162 episodes overall. 00:38:47:00 - 00:38:54:12 Speaker 1 So they're all there. And, we look forward to seeing you again in two weeks. Robert Hammond, thanks again. We will see you soon. 00:38:54:14 - 00:38:55:19 Speaker 2 Thank you.