Latest / Sword&Spade / You Believe in Myths: David Russell Mosley on Myth, Fatherhood, and Classical Education

Transcript

You Believe in Myths: David Russell Mosley on Myth, Fatherhood, and Classical Education · Sword&Spade

• Jason M. Craig (00:01.41) I always like to mess up at the beginning though so they have to edit right away. I feel like we get our money's worth out of producers. David Russell Mosley (00:06.499) Thanks Jason M. Craig (00:10.924) David Russell Mosley, welcome to the Sword and Spade podcast. I'm going to introduce you first and I want to introduce you to Sword and Spade and our readers. I don't know if you're a reader of the magazine. David Russell Mosley (00:21.955) I've only just become familiar with you guys. Yeah, I'd love to hear everything Jason M. Craig (00:26.142) man, come on. We're very famous. I feel like maybe you're behind important things. Well, to introduce you to the magazine and the idea is that, you the symbols of sword and spade are appeal to men. We don't want to be just sort of cliche at this point, Manosphere stuff. In fact, the magazine was born because we were sick of the internet and thought, you know, what's not going to be discovered on the internet? Masculinity. So we... David Russell Mosley (00:28.662) You entirely possible. Jason M. Craig (00:55.704) It's going to be discovered where it always is in reality and probably with some something worth reading. So the sword is to as a man, you need to be able to defend yourself and what's been entrusted to you. But I would say more importantly, the spade is the skill of being able to actually cultivate something worth defending. So that's the magazine we are trying to be a bridge between a world that I think you know really well, which is the coherent, intellectual, poetic, cultural heritage of the church and what people, I don't know if they mean this for good or ill, but the every man and be a bridge between them. So we, like to say that the theologian and the mechanic meet at sword and spade because they both need each other. So that being said to our listeners and readers, David Russell Mosley, you're a convert, you're a poet, you're a theologian, you're running a school. David Russell Mosley (01:40.515) Amen. David Russell Mosley (01:51.724) I am. Jason M. Craig (01:54.53) Or are you Dean or Headmaster? What's the? David Russell Mosley (01:55.319) Don't run it anymore, I'm just a teacher there now. I was headmaster for a little bit. No, more went back into the classroom where I fit better. Jason M. Craig (01:59.467) you got demoted. You got demoted. Jason M. Craig (02:08.529) Yeah. You suffered that what's it's the managerial curse. When somebody is good at something, they try to make him a manager of it. And like, can I just go back to being the thing I was good at instead of managing other people that are not as good at it as I am. And I'd like to ask you about all that. but I need to you took this with good humor. We were talking before we went live here that I called Trey. Bailey who's the content editor he connected. This is an interesting man. You really need to talk to him. I'd like to talk about myth and household and fatherhood. And he said, definitely Tweety pipe type. David Russell Mosley (02:49.664) Yeah. Jason M. Craig (02:51.406) Tweety pipe type. And I thought, oh, and then of course I'm looking up your bio, Chesterton Academy. I'm like, oh gosh, he's one of those Chestertonians. I'm picturing him. I'm starting to paint a picture in my mind. And then I, of course, search for you and find like a YouTube video that's like pipes, Catholicism, literature. I'm like, oh, it's the guy. David Russell Mosley (03:13.504) Yeah, yeah, no, I fit a type. I absolutely fit a type. I've got an aesthetic and I'm not afraid of it. Jason M. Craig (03:19.64) There you go. All right. Then I'm not going to ask you about, there's all sorts of beautiful things in your story. I, know, I poked around your conversion to the church, your conversion maybe into beauty and liturgy and poetics and all that. But tell me how you became a Tweety pipe guy. David Russell Mosley (03:37.284) That certainly started with a long held love of C.S. Lewis and J.R. Tolkien. My mom was reading me The Hobbit when I was in the crib. I discovered Lewis through a friend when I was in elementary school and reading those men led to reading about those men. you know, there's an aesthetic. goes with that. And so that always had been kind of an aspirational goal. As I've gotten older, hopefully it's become less of like a costume and more an actual adoption of these these kinds of things. Because even Lewis, Lewis is the kind of guy who said like, no matter what clothes you put on me, no matter how nice they look, I will always make them look frumpy the minute they go on my body. Jason M. Craig (04:10.636) Hahaha. David Russell Mosley (04:34.155) And so, not a guy who necessarily, you was particularly interested in his appearance, sartorially speaking. But I found that that's something I do care about. That's something I like to dress well. And, well, you want good clothes that look nice? You can end up in the Tweety Pipe category. Jason M. Craig (04:34.978) That's funny. Jason M. Craig (04:58.862) Oh yeah, no, was, now I was making fun of those guys. I was telling you, went to a Chesterton conference, I was speaking at a workshop and I was, whoever I was writing with, a good friend of mine by the way is Joseph Pierce and he lives nearby. That's why maybe we were writing together and... no, we weren't. think he had to have his own shuttle to the Chester King conference because he's like, you know, the star of the show there. whoever I was writing with, said, man, we're no, we're going to know we're in the right place when out front there's a whole bunch of Tweety pipe guys and we pulled up and I'm not kidding you, just like five or six Tweety pipe guys. And it was true. I would say there's the guys for whom it looks like a costume. But the thing is everyone is going to adopt a costume and I have. David Russell Mosley (05:24.525) You David Russell Mosley (05:43.393) in English. Jason M. Craig (05:48.727) young sons because they sort of dress in into the identity they're trying to aspire to which is why some kid right some young you know your son walks out in sixth or seventh grade and like he just really needs an under armor t-shirt you know and with the logo on the outside David Russell Mosley (05:55.555) Mm-hmm. David Russell Mosley (06:02.413) Mm-hmm. David Russell Mosley (06:12.024) Mm-hmm. Jason M. Craig (06:12.246) And you might ask yourself, because I would ask myself this, well, doesn't Under Armour go underneath? Shouldn't it be hidden? And you know, I would he would like to present himself as an Under Armour guy, right? I'm an Under Armour guy. And or if you're in college, you know, it's like I really need a North Face jacket and I need to make sure that the logo is for some reason not on the chest, but on the back shoulder as if I'm wearing it backwards. I'm having this conversations with my sons that actually I want them to develop a taste and a care and it can be frumpy, but actually we've sort of. We haven't had to force this, but we've definitely cultivated a hatred for brands and a love for material. What is you know like? Don't don't wear. Do not pay a company to use your body as a billboard. If there. David Russell Mosley (06:47.318) Mm-hmm. David Russell Mosley (06:56.515) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Jason M. Craig (07:06.966) If a logo ever shows up on this podcast, they better have paid me to put it on the temple of the Holy Ghost, right? If they were going to pay, I'm sorry, I'm talking to us. If they're going to pay a church to put a sign and advertisement on it, like they should pay the church. So I'm a temple of the Holy Ghost. You better pay me to put your logo on. Anyway, but they're developing that. So I appreciate, I think it's an important thing that we understand that we are proposing. And I'm sure with your students, you're proposing an aesthetic that matters. David Russell Mosley (07:26.541) Man. David Russell Mosley (07:32.696) Hmm. Jason M. Craig (07:35.82) rooted in more than a brand. David Russell Mosley (07:36.193) Yeah. Yes. Absolutely. No, absolutely. Jason M. Craig (07:40.129) Alright, now that we got your clothes out of the way, not literally, tell me first about... I am interested. You came because now I can see, I looked at your published poet. You've written a fairy tale for adults, which is a beautiful thing to do. I'd like to ask you to defend yourself. But you seem to have come from not... David Russell Mosley (07:44.724) Mmm. Jason M. Craig (08:09.314) what I would now call, I don't know, a poetic, literary Catholic, like you're a convert. So if you could just give us that arch narrative of how you came, one, to Christ, I'd be interested in that. Sometimes we skip that and we just wanna talk about the church, and then to the church. David Russell Mosley (08:24.739) Mm-hmm. Yeah. David Russell Mosley (08:31.213) So yeah, I grew up in rural Illinois, Jacksonville, Illinois, just about 30 minutes south of the state capital, which is not Chicago, despite what everyone seems to think these days. yeah, know, working class parents, great people, but was raised religiously, right? There was kind of a cultural Christianity, but that was a Jason M. Craig (08:45.612) Not yet. David Russell Mosley (09:00.685) about it, you know? And so throughout school, I developed a love for reading, which my mom in particular really encouraged me in and wouldn't let me just read all the Animorphs books that I wanted to, but made me. Right? How long has been since you thought about them? I'm just saying. Jason M. Craig (09:17.922) Ha, animorphs. Jason M. Craig (09:23.928) Yeah, I mean, I never read them. It's just the kids around me that read books did. I picked up reading later in life. Can I ask what era this was? What decade? David Russell Mosley (09:28.887) Yeah. David Russell Mosley (09:34.999) Yeah, so what? That would have been the 90s, Mid to late 90s. I was in elementary school, junior high, hit high school in the early aughts. Jason M. Craig (09:45.678) So did you, all right, so I'm 41. Are we about, we're about the same? Okay. Oh, I'm your senior. David Russell Mosley (09:49.475) 39, yeah. Yep. I know, I look older. I get that a lot. It's the Jason M. Craig (09:56.663) Is true. I'm getting the gray beard right in the middle like you, but you're ahead of me. Yeah, you've been. Yeah, that does it. Well, it's sort of like why don't know where he is, you know? He just he just took off the indicator. I don't know if he's thinning if he's great. Can I? I just want to. David Russell Mosley (10:00.066) bald head though, yeah, it's the the lack of hair. David Russell Mosley (10:10.669) No, it's actually really full and lush. I shave it on purpose. It's, you know. Right, absolutely. Jason M. Craig (10:13.74) Yeah, and donate it, I'm sure. To a pillow company. But pillow company for the poor, of course. Do you recall, though, I'd be interested because I think in the 90s, I know it was hard to become a reader because it was the age, for me, I could come home from school, parents weren't there. You know, I'd just turn on the TV and it was, you know, MTV or whatever, you know. Or, gosh, what was that show, Dragon Ball Z? David Russell Mosley (10:33.985) Mm-hmm. Jason M. Craig (10:43.224) You know, was on Cartoon Network. It was easy to not to not be a reader because there was already a lot of entertainment. I mean, imagine now. So how did your mother cultivate? How practically speaking, how did you become a reader? And then did your dad not have anything to do with this? David Russell Mosley (10:43.927) Mm-hmm. Yeah? yeah. David Russell Mosley (10:51.554) Mm. David Russell Mosley (11:02.177) Yeah, So, trust me, I spent a lot of time in front of the television as well. A lot of hours spent on GoldenEye and Ocarina of Time. And, you know, I can quote the entire 1990s Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles movie from, like, beginning to end. But... Jason M. Craig (11:15.384) Go Nye! Jason M. Craig (11:25.314) Ha David Russell Mosley (11:30.966) My mom, she liked to read. She was mostly like a mystery reader, but she liked to read. And so anytime I would say I was bored, right? If I rage quit a video game, if I had watched every movie that we had five times already, I, you know, said, mom, I'm bored. Go get a book. Right. It was always what she would say. And because things weren't available on demand and I couldn't watch the very thing I always wanted to whenever I wanted to. Jason M. Craig (12:00.28) Mm-hmm. David Russell Mosley (12:00.388) That's what I would do. And again, she, by example, by reading around me, by reading to me when I was young, that really helped develop this desire for reading to the point where I had checked out every book my school library had on Greek mythology and had to have them go to other schools to get their books so I could read those as well. Jason M. Craig (12:26.178) Well, somebody, the librarian should thank you for justifying their work. I mean, for justifying their salary. Hey, go get me a book. David Russell Mosley (12:29.629) Ha ha. David Russell Mosley (12:34.019) It's true, no, Yeah. Jason M. Craig (12:35.278) funny they'll do that for you now but I'm like I could get this in two days for $9.95 or you could take a month and find it in the interlibrary system and then I'll borrow it David Russell Mosley (12:47.339) Right. Yeah. And only get it for a short period of time before I have to turn it back because it's from a different state and they will charge me money if it's not back on time. But no, and so that really helped inculcate that in me and I read a mix of, you know, kind of pulp, like kids pulp fiction. So, you know, Animorphs. I had all like the Star Wars books that aren't canon anymore, but were-ish for a little while. Jason M. Craig (12:56.174) That's it. Jason M. Craig (13:00.355) That's it. David Russell Mosley (13:17.101) But then, you know, she'd make me read, like, go read one of the kind of classics, right? And we had a limited collection of things. So I'd go read Oliver Twist, or I'd go read, you know, by high school I was getting into like Dumas. I was reading The Count of Monte Cristo and The Three Musketeers and stuff like that. My dad was not a great reader. Jason M. Craig (13:39.022) Hmm. David Russell Mosley (13:44.126) need to qualify that he was great at reading. If he read something he retained it pretty much perfectly. He could read the newspaper back to front and tell you every article that was in there, what they were saying, all of that. But when it came to books and especially reading fiction that was just not something that he did. He'd go down to the basement to the large TV that somehow got down there and would watch golf when he was home. Or he would be out golfing, or he'd be at work. My dad worked... By the time I came along, he was nearing retirement age, and so it wasn't quite what my older siblings had gone through with him just being gone all the time. He worked for a company that built overpasses and rose up through the ranks and that. So he was gone a lot when my siblings were young. He was home more with me, but still mostly, you know, downstairs watching golf. Jason M. Craig (14:34.808) Hmm. David Russell Mosley (14:40.771) or baseball or football, yelling at somebody for doing something wrong at some point. No, it's true. It's true. It wasn't me. But yeah, so that's what developed this love of reading, which, you know, then just kind of continued when I got to high school, you know, I'm putting all the AP classes and that kind of stuff. so there, despite going to a public school, I got introduced to a lot of the really great Jason M. Craig (14:46.785) At least it wasn't you. Jason M. Craig (14:50.936) Yeah. David Russell Mosley (15:10.103) works of Western civilization, right? So I'm reading Moby Dick, I'm reading Beowulf, Lamar D'Arthur, Julius Caesar by Shakespeare, all of this, and I'm eating it up. I'm loving every minute of it. They asked me how I came to Christ, and that happens in the midst of all of this. Like I said, I was raised in a largely religious home, and so when I got to junior high, And in Jacksonville, we have a lot of elementary schools, but one junior high and one high school. And so when I got to junior high, it's an influx of new people I've not met before. And I meet this kid, and it's funny you mentioned Dragon Ball Z, because he was a huge, I think the kids call them now weebs. He was a huge weeb, watching lots of anime and that kind of stuff. But he was the son of... Jason M. Craig (15:59.907) Wait, wait, what is a weeb? A weeb is like an anime guy? David Russell Mosley (16:03.979) A weeb is like an anime japanophile kind of guy. You know, the kind of guy that you might see wearing a kimono and having like a katana sitting on a shelf somewhere. That's a weeb. I don't know why, but that's the word for Jason M. Craig (16:19.992) Like I just, can't, I can't picture a Katana or any sort of Japanese looking thing without picturing a flea market. So for someone to get into that as like, because my kids asked me, what is a flea market the other day? I'm like, it's somewhere where you can go and get socks, a drill, a ninja star, and on your way out, something fried, you know, and, it's probably mostly outside. So anyway, I'm sorry. David Russell Mosley (16:29.431) Well, yeah. David Russell Mosley (16:44.193) Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Where you'll also get sunburned and fleeced at some point while you're there. Jason M. Craig (16:48.686) I did weebs. Yeah, that's right. I talked to him. I love when you get started the flea market. You really feel like it's a deal. Like I talked him down 15 bucks. You look online and it's like, oh, that's what it costs retail. So, um, all right, I'm sorry. So you, met a weeb and what I needed you to clarify that I've never heard that. David Russell Mosley (17:05.847) No, So yeah, I met this kid and we had a lot of similar interests, know, both big nerds, both into Star Wars, video games. He's the one who introduced me to Dragon Ball Z and stuff like that. And he happened to be the son of a pastor of a, you know, non-denominational church in town. And I'd been to church a couple of times with some friends. stay the night and we'd go out to the Baptist church that their family had been going to since they, you know, were living in sod houses out in the prairie. But it wasn't a thing that had connected with me. You know, by junior high I had pretty much gotten to the point where like, you know what? don't think I believe in God. Like I, you know, I went through a phase where I thought maybe the Greek gods were real, right? And I had my little pagan phase. It was great. Didn't sacrifice anything, you know, nothing died for Zeus But but I thought well, maybe he's there right? Maybe this is real Yeah Jason M. Craig (18:13.292) Like as an actual that someone else told I had another guy interviewed and he said, I asked him, you know, did you he was a pagan and he, you know, was I think he was searching for Venus or something. And I asked him, I'm like, in your in your imagination, your mind, was it actually like something there? So you actually felt some sense of like, why did because these myths have stuck around so long, maybe there is something here. Maybe they actually explain the cosmos a little bit. David Russell Mosley (18:22.019) Mm-hmm. David Russell Mosley (18:38.615) Yeah. Well, and it, and you know, again, we're talking like fourth, fifth, sixth grade where, where David is a little pagan. and, but it was also this desire for a world that was more than what I'm being presented with. Right. Where, trees are more than trees, right? Where, people are more than people. I wanted that so desperately. Jason M. Craig (18:49.709) Yeah. David Russell Mosley (19:08.912) and so yeah, bye. Jason M. Craig (19:09.43) Yeah, that was so that was little little pagan Dave was looking for mystery maybe because he sensed it. Yeah, when I am when we first sort of had our agrarian conversion and moved back to homesteading, we got friends that were over pagans and it just occurred to me how David Russell Mosley (19:13.229) Yeah. Jason M. Craig (19:26.062) They really just sit, you know, calm tree huggers and they're, you know, they look funny to us, but they really sense a mystery behind creation and they just, so they start worshiping the tree instead of, you know, past the tree. But so it's, I, I find it, um, uh, I'm sympathetic. I guess I'm sympathetic to the pagans. Maybe that's a bad thing, but no, it's a good thing. I know it is. David Russell Mosley (19:32.376) Yeah. David Russell Mosley (19:44.44) No, I don't think so. I don't at all think so. think, mean, Chesterton himself said, you know, that we might need to re-paganize Britain before it can become Christian again. And you know, that's the late 19th, early 20th century that he's talking that way. So no, do, yeah. Yep. He does. He does invite me to church. Jason M. Craig (19:55.502) Yeah. Jason M. Craig (20:02.542) Okay, so you're not. I'm gonna skip back ahead. You're with this guy. His dad's a pastor. I bet he invites you to church. David Russell Mosley (20:12.803) And it's, it's a, I don't know if you're familiar with the acapella churches of Christ. There should be a decent number of those around where you are if you're, you're down in the south. Jason M. Craig (20:22.606) We have a lot of Church of Christ, but I'm a convert and I know that in one, I was a very strict Calvinist at one point, and I was at a church where they would only sing with the human voice from the Psalms. They wouldn't even sing a hymn, because it was not from scripture. So, wait, maybe we had a piano. No, we had a piano, we had a piano. David Russell Mosley (20:33.409) Mmm. David Russell Mosley (20:42.501) wow. Yeah. We weren't that bad. We... No, ours was... I mean it was... So the Restoration Movement, this 19th century Christian unity movement that of course ends up split in three ways, right? Jason M. Craig (20:59.31) Ha! David Russell Mosley (21:02.305) right? And predictable, I think. But anyway, that's the church that this kid's dad was a pastor of. And so yeah, he invites me to church. I start going. Somewhat ironically, they then invite me to go for like a weekend to this Christian music festival where instruments are used despite being an a cappella church. Yeah, right? Jason M. Craig (21:27.574) and amplifiers. David Russell Mosley (21:30.493) and like rock music is played there. Well, rock music, right? But anyway, they invite me to that and... Right. Jason M. Craig (21:38.434) Right. That's how you know you're in a Christian context though, when they don't just say rock, they say rock music. That makes yourself sound old and uptight. Like when I say TikTok, I always try to say the TikTok. It's just, you're on the TikTok. David Russell Mosley (21:45.015) Right, right. David Russell Mosley (21:51.428) Yeah, oh, absolutely. I always tell when I'm teaching students, yeah, it's the social media, right? The social media. I want them, even though like that was made for my generation, not theirs, I want them to think of me as somebody who views it in that way. Jason M. Craig (21:57.257) Hehehehehe Jason M. Craig (22:08.13) That's right. That's right. All right. So you're at you're at the rock music with Jesus. David Russell Mosley (22:10.881) Yeah, we're at... I'm at this con... Yeah, I'm at this... this... festival. And, you know, there's... there's an altar call. One of the bands does... does an altar call, and I realize, like, you know what? I actually... I've been around this long enough now. I think this is true. I think Jesus is real. I think he's the Son of God. You know, I think... I think this is... where my life needs to go. and so, after that, had a lot of conversations with the... youth minister we had at the time, which was a naval recruiter and his wife ran the youth ministry at that church. And, you know, come what November of 2000, I decided, okay, no, this is where I want to be. And so I was baptized in the Jacksonville Church of Christ in Jacksonville, Illinois. Jason M. Craig (23:04.814) Beautiful. I think we actually became Protestants then around the same time. was around, yeah, I about 16, 17. So that'd been the same time. Mine was similarly, well, I was a young life guy. I don't know if you ever had young life around. But I should say to our, sorry, go ahead. David Russell Mosley (23:09.563) wow, nice. David Russell Mosley (23:19.459) I'd heard of them. We had... David Russell Mosley (23:26.423) No, no, go ahead, go ahead. Jason M. Craig (23:28.236) Yeah, well, was going to say to our Catholic listeners who have never experienced an altar call, the beauty of it is for a lot of pride. It's the moment where you hear the gospel, but it's a sort of like their best sacramental sign, which is I would like you to stand up and walk forward to indicate. that you have accepted Jesus into your heart, right? And it's a very, I think I did three or four of them by the time I actually converted, but, because I'm in the South, man, they kind of overdo it, I think. These say, yeah, so they didn't all stick, because they weren't actually sacraments, so they stuck. it occurred to the other day, I'm a bit of a closet traditionalist. The only reason I say that is because. David Russell Mosley (23:53.41) Ha David Russell Mosley (23:56.854) trust me, I've done a couple of them myself. Jason M. Craig (24:11.756) These days, being a traditionalist is like meeting a vegan. Like they let you know really quickly and say, okay, I get it. but, you know, it's because I'm lazy, not cause I'm against it. I'm sorry. But, I, it occurred to me the other day, if I was, a liturgical revolutionary, I would propose that we stop the assembly line of communion. David Russell Mosley (24:17.997) Did you crossfit too? David Russell Mosley (24:25.475) Hahaha! David Russell Mosley (24:40.973) Mm-hmm. Jason M. Craig (24:41.13) And that every, and I know people say this would be a commute, but like you would actually like one by one in that moment. Like when, I don't know, we would, would somehow make it like, Hey, in this moment, you're gonna, we could make it, make it an actual. And the only thing to do that would just. David Russell Mosley (24:48.802) Mm-hmm. Jason M. Craig (24:56.334) Spread out a little bit more and you come one by one and you don't we'd have to have a lot less people receiving community for this to work, which we probably should and But the assembly line, know, the assembly line would go away And you would you would go up slowly it would it make things difficult But anyway, that's it's probably a bad idea. Okay, so you but you had an altar call experience which I can relate to and then after this did you David Russell Mosley (25:00.707) Mm-hmm. David Russell Mosley (25:09.559) Mm-hmm. Yeah. David Russell Mosley (25:22.135) I did. Yeah, I did. That would have been what, May of... Yeah. yeah. May of 2000. So by November, I decide, yeah, all right, I want to be a Christian. I'm going to get baptized. And so yeah, baptized. And, you know, life just kind of proceeds from there. I started thinking, okay, I'm going to be a preacher now, right? Because that's the thing that you do, right? You're going to go be a preacher. Jason M. Craig (25:26.862) 2000. Jason M. Craig (25:47.402) yeah. David Russell Mosley (25:50.148) And I'm looking at colleges, and I look at a college called Harding University out in Searcy, Arkansas, which is within the restoration movement, Acapella Churches of Christ kind of thing. And I decided ultimately not to go there largely because you couldn't wear shorts before two o'clock in the afternoon. This is Arkansas we're talking about. That sounded awful to me. Jason M. Craig (26:11.035) Hahaha David Russell Mosley (26:16.019) couldn't wear shorts before two o'clock in the afternoon. You couldn't have hair past your collar, which this is hard to believe now, but at the time I did have hair that went past my collar. You couldn't have any piercings, which at least at that point one of my ears was pierced. And you know, there was all of these, also it was in Arkansas that was really far away, and I had never lived that far away from my family before. And so I found a different college in Lincoln, Illinois. Jason M. Craig (26:24.526) Bye. Jason M. Craig (26:32.171) wow. David Russell Mosley (26:45.939) called at the time Lincoln Christian College and Seminary, later Lincoln Christian University. Like, okay, this is a little over an hour away. They don't have all these rules. I'm gonna go here. And so I go there. It's another school. Yeah, go ahead. Sorry. Jason M. Craig (26:58.766) But you went from, I'm sorry, you went from altar call to wanting to be a preacher man, like, within a year? I mean, was it, because I guess you, okay, wow, so you probably dove into that church deeply. David Russell Mosley (27:08.993) Within a couple of years, yeah. Yeah, by that point I had already read through the whole Protestant Bible multiple times. When our youth minister at the time had left, another guy from the church kind of filled in. We'd had a couple of guys come in and out. But it was getting to the point where I knew more than they did about Scripture because I was spending more time in it. Because while I was a student, I didn't have a full-time job. and school came easy to me, so I had the extra time to just dive into these things in a way that they didn't. And so yeah, it was pretty quick turnaround that, no, this is, I thought this is what I wanted to do. So I go to college, meet my, end up switching to a youth ministry major, because I'm thinking, okay, you know, I'm already kind of leading my youth group, doing all this stuff, like, youth ministry makes sense. I meet my wife, freshman year of college. We get married, end of junior year. Things are still kind of trucking along, but now I'm heading down the academic route, right? Now I'm heading off to grad school to do a master's in church history. we had this, gen ed program was called the interdisciplinary studies program where it was one class where you're lectures in politics, philosophy, art, all this stuff as we're working chronologically throughout history. I'm really starting to fall in love with the Church Fathers and the Middle Ages. And my love of Lewis and Tolkien is really helping encourage that in me, right? Because of Tolkien, I start studying Anglo-Saxon, right? I'm pulling on all these threads. So we decide, okay, well, the natural conclusion to this is to go get a doctorate. by that point, I'd become really interested in Irish Christianity, especially medieval Irish Christianity. David Russell Mosley (29:12.235) I'm like looking somewhere in the UK to do a doctorate because that's, you know, where they were. And we end up moving to Nottingham. I end up switching topics completely, but I'm still focused a lot in reading the Church Fathers and the Medieval Theologians. And it's really, I'm starting to struggle to say, man, I think these guys are right about so much stuff, especially, I end up getting really into Jason M. Craig (29:19.458) Yeah. David Russell Mosley (29:38.27) studying the doctrine of theosis or deification, and like I'm really struggling to say these guys are right about all this stuff, but they're not right about the sacraments. They're not right about the church. And so that leads to... yeah, sorry, go ahead. Jason M. Craig (29:55.639) Mm-hmm. Yeah, I just can't only because that's one of my Yeah, the two doctrines that I had I sort of think are Not pronounced enough and super important to use good language super important right now David Russell Mosley (30:14.263) Yeah. Jason M. Craig (30:15.628) that we don't understand in the church that we need to. I one is the mystical body of Christ of being, because it's the doctrine that fights liberalism the most. Because you don't, you know, you belong to one another. You, you're actually. David Russell Mosley (30:20.995) Mm-hmm. Jason M. Craig (30:29.966) you are a body and you need to understand how bodies function. think that's why whenever we complain about community and culture and all these pieces that just don't seem to be fitting together is because we don't know we're a body. But the other one is is theosis and deification. mean, I loved that collection. that came out a while back essays on view because that is the life and I you know I write and I'm very interested in writes a passage and initiation and sort of fatherhood and what a man does with his son is to make him more of a man so he's growing into something and this deification is what God is doing to us he is growing us up into Jesus Christ and so could you just give the layman's or give them a David Russell Mosley (30:57.347) Yeah. David Russell Mosley (31:04.803) Mm-hmm. Jason M. Craig (31:17.776) of that doctrine because it sounds like you dorked out on it for some years so wait wait I'm sorry wait before you start wait before you start did you get rid of the earring by this point David Russell Mosley (31:22.926) yeah, no, I'm gonna write whole book on it. David Russell Mosley (31:30.291) so by PhD, both earrings were gone, but by college, a second ear was pierced. so, so yes, but, but, but by grad school, those are yeah, anyway, deification. I mean, to put it simply, right. It's Athanasius puts it so well, God became man that man might become God. Jason M. Craig (31:39.136) Okay. All right. Good. Well, we don't need that whole story. All right. Tell us what deification is. David Russell Mosley (31:55.01) And of course there's all sorts of qualifications on what that means and what it doesn't mean, right? It doesn't mean that we become uncreated. That's not possible. We can't traverse that gap between creator and creature. But it does mean that what God is doing to us through the process of sanctification is so uniting our nature to His as He already has in the person of Jesus Christ that as we grow in sanctity, as we grow in holiness, we become more by adoption what Jesus is by nature. That's what deification is. That's what it is. It's turning us into what we already claim to be, which is little Christ. That's what Christian means is little Christ. And that's what the doctrine of theostasis is. Jason M. Craig (32:29.486) There you go. Jason M. Craig (32:40.268) Yeah, I think the reason that's critical right now is there's my experience in convert and had experienced God's love and what he does by grace. And that's an uncomfortable thing, especially a conservative, traditionally minded American male. David Russell Mosley (32:59.363) Mm-hmm. Jason M. Craig (32:59.788) We like to choose Jesus. We like to be Orthodox, but we don't want God to actually do something to us, right? And that requires surrender, possibly brokenness, potentially humility, which is humiliating. But we so much want to have God in life figured out. And I think the faith often gets reduced to such things. David Russell Mosley (33:10.893) Mm-hmm. David Russell Mosley (33:15.286) And adjust. Jason M. Craig (33:28.46) Whereas that doctrine reminds us he is. He is drawing us up to himself and it's not just stay out of mortal sin so you don't go to hell. He is making you a beloved son and that even sounds to some people that that's a little, you know, no, I'm like you are a beloved son. need to, you need to feel and sense your belovedness. And now that sounds weird if you're like, you know, song, song of songs kind of guy, but you're a New Testament, like filial adoption kind of guy that doesn't sound as weird. You know, so David Russell Mosley (33:38.273) Right, right. David Russell Mosley (33:44.789) Mm-hmm. Right. David Russell Mosley (33:59.844) Mm-hmm. Jason M. Craig (34:01.68) Sorry, that was dorky too. All right. So I'm not gonna ask you about the doctrine anymore. Well, maybe I will go ahead. Go ahead. Tell me why it's true. Tell me more. David Russell Mosley (34:03.585) No, no, it's true. David Russell Mosley (34:10.915) Well, I mean, it's true because it's what he said, right? It's be perfect as your heavenly father is perfect. It's, it's, you know, the father and I are one. I wish that all would be as we are. It's, say you are God's, all sons of the most high, right? All of these scriptural passages that we can look at that says Jesus is trying to turn us into him, not with a loss of self. Jason M. Craig (34:14.082) Yeah. David Russell Mosley (34:38.999) not with a loss of individuality, but to be, again, by adoption, because that's the important thing here. This is what separates us from Mormons and Pagans, right? Is that this is by adoption, not by nature. There is nothing in our nature that makes this possible for us. It's only because God united His nature to ours at the Incarnation that this has become possible. And yeah. Jason M. Craig (35:06.04) Yeah, okay, I'm gonna press it. I said we're gonna set it aside. I'm gonna press it. I think... part of maybe the reason that the adoption idea is one so hard and so critical to understand is that we do live in a fatherless age. And even when we have good and decent fathers, and I don't want to pry too much, but I'm hearing a common experience for lot of American men, which is an overworking father who spends his time potentially with me watching sports instead. David Russell Mosley (35:22.477) Mm-hmm. Jason M. Craig (35:37.441) And maybe I would just like him to yell at me instead of the coach for a while. Or why did you punt that? And a lot of our formation in our upbringing in our in the West now, not in the past, but now as men happens broadly with all sorts of people that dad drops us off to or pays, but not him. So the gift of himself received to make us mature. David Russell Mosley (35:43.714) Right. David Russell Mosley (35:53.165) Mm-hmm. David Russell Mosley (36:02.156) Mm-hmm. Jason M. Craig (36:06.698) is like sensibly difficult to understand for a lot of people. don't actually have it. And this might even be a this isn't just fatherless people. This is people with good dads, but that they don't have they're not initiated into manhood in the world by their father. They're initiated just into the world through college or some other means so that I think this spiritual image, we are impoverished on a sensible level right now. David Russell Mosley (36:07.575) Mm-hmm. David Russell Mosley (36:16.451) Mm-hmm. David Russell Mosley (36:21.528) Mm-hmm. David Russell Mosley (36:26.263) Right. Yeah. Jason M. Craig (36:35.072) on what it means to to be to mature by becoming a son and a better and better and better son. And then more and more and more like the father, that that's something that we're not really compelled to do. A father is not supposed to impose himself, tell his children how to dress, you know, or something like that. David Russell Mosley (36:42.563) Mm-hmm. David Russell Mosley (36:51.425) Right. Mm-hmm. No, you're I think you're right, though. I think that that it's and it's difficult to grasp. think for a variety of reasons, but I do think one of them is, yeah, this this notion of we want to we want to be unlike Christ. We want to grasp at divinity. If I'm if I'm going to be a god, it's going to be because of me. It's going to be because of something I did to make that happen. it's not going to be because of something someone external to me has done to me. And that's very hard for absolutely the modern American man to be comfortable with. Right? It's, I mean, never mind telling a guy, hey, guess what? In comparison to God, you are feminine. Jason M. Craig (37:21.122) Right. Jason M. Craig (37:29.474) Yeah. Jason M. Craig (37:41.474) Yeah. David Russell Mosley (37:49.41) Right? You are the bride of Christ, my man. You know, that's... Sure. I'll win. But it's fine. Jason M. Craig (37:53.679) Man, all right, all right, hold on. Can we get in an argument now? Can we get in an argument? Are you familiar with, well, this is actually, I think this is important because a lot of young men we know are finding their way to the apostolic churches through the internet. And then a lot of them are finding their way East, the ortho bros, as I've heard them called. And I read a book that changed David Russell Mosley (38:12.867) Yep. Mm-hmm. Yep. Jason M. Craig (38:21.644) It actually changed the way when I started reading scripture again, I'm sorry, when I started reading scripture after this through this lens, it really changed how I understood things. And it was Leon Pottles, Pottles, and it's called the feminization of Christianity. And he his basically his thesis is that the image of the individual soul as a bride of Christ was never used in. David Russell Mosley (38:28.312) Okay. David Russell Mosley (38:36.483) Mm-hmm. David Russell Mosley (38:45.207) Mm-hmm. David Russell Mosley (38:49.283) Okay. Jason M. Craig (38:49.71) fathers and apostolic times until essentially Bernard of Clairvaux and that so this is going to take a man and then you're going to respond and we're going to get a friendly argument because I think it has consequences. I think what you said has consequences and his thesis was that this happened in the West predominantly, which is one of the reasons that the doctrine of deification and theosis faded away in the West and went more romantic. David Russell Mosley (38:54.146) Mm-hmm. David Russell Mosley (38:59.031) Yeah. David Russell Mosley (39:09.399) Mm-hmm. Jason M. Craig (39:19.822) and somewhat feminine and resulted in that it didn't in the East because and this is when I was reading and understanding like rites of passage and like what if what the feminine is we think of the feminine as you know primarily receptive David Russell Mosley (39:23.159) Mm-hmm. David Russell Mosley (39:31.299) Mm-hmm. Jason M. Craig (39:36.249) Whereas femininity is actually better suited to be called like wholeness, the thing that brings everything into whole. So I always use the example. The only time Jesus calls himself a lady is when he says, I wish I could be a mother hen that gathers you in. Right. This by the church is a wholeness. But his thesis, Pado's thesis is that by, by, because in scripture, when St. Paul uses the image of the bride of Christ, it is the church as a whole. that wholeness, bodily in its entirety is feminine, not by, not David Russell Mosley (39:36.759) Mm-hmm. David Russell Mosley (39:40.737) Mm-hmm. Jason M. Craig (40:06.192) not just by its receptivity, because a son is also receptive. When Jesus says everything I have from the father, I've received from the father, he's not receiving like a lady. He's receiving like a son. So masculinity itself is also receptive, just like the head of a home, the father and the head of the church. Christ are also receptive by receiving the prayers. That's form of receptive. And that by applying David Russell Mosley (40:14.871) Mm-hmm. David Russell Mosley (40:21.495) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. David Russell Mosley (40:30.123) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Jason M. Craig (40:36.11) The bridal imagery to the individual soul asks a man to contort David Russell Mosley (40:44.279) Mm-hmm. Jason M. Craig (40:45.676) his very experience and understanding of the world away from what he is as a man. I think this happens a lot in the TOB circles, the theology of the body circles. And this is why in the West you have, in the imitation of Christ, him taking on the imagery of a bride, which I would say for a 15-year-old young man or even your average guy, David Russell Mosley (40:51.937) Mm-hmm. David Russell Mosley (40:56.215) Mm-hmm. David Russell Mosley (41:02.957) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Jason M. Craig (41:09.422) is difficult. Now I found in the writing of St. John of the Cross him talking about that and him but him making the case be careful with this imagery because it won't make it has to be for someone who's sort of using an imaginary non-reality as an image because you actually in this doctrine of deification David Russell Mosley (41:09.73) Mm-hmm. David Russell Mosley (41:16.899) Mm-hmm. David Russell Mosley (41:23.874) Mm-hmm. David Russell Mosley (41:31.8) Mm-hmm. Jason M. Craig (41:37.505) It's not by becoming a better and better wife, but becoming a better and better son. It's adoption. So that for the individual, the predominant image is son. And in scripture, it's never applied. So my argument is that when we propose that to men, it might be repulsive for good reason that it has them do mental gymnastics in order to love Jesus that I find unnecessary. David Russell Mosley (41:41.037) Mmm. David Russell Mosley (41:47.714) Mm-hmm. David Russell Mosley (41:55.7) Mm-hmm. Right. David Russell Mosley (42:03.587) So I think, alright, to a certain extent fair enough. Now I've not read Pottle's book. I think I've heard of it though. I'd be interested to look into that, having spent a lot of time reading Eastern sources and so on. While you do have the Ortho bros, that is not the wholesale picture of orthodoxy, right? That's Jason M. Craig (42:26.36) Mm-hmm. David Russell Mosley (42:27.127) that's, again, a particularly an American Orthodox expression. You see it a bit in places like Russia. Right. And you see it in places like Russia, especially as well. There's a lot going on there that can drive that kind of view. So it's not at all that I even disagree with what you're saying, though, right? It's more that I think for some men, and again, yeah, not for all. Jason M. Craig (42:33.102) via the internet. Jason M. Craig (42:40.675) Yeah. David Russell Mosley (42:54.465) For some, there can be this need to be reminded that your picture of masculinity may not be the right one. And for some, the corrective of potentially even starting with the, comparison to God, you are feminine, is a helpful corrective to turn them around from a particular view. But that said, you're not wrong, A, that, yeah, in scripture, Paul talks about the bride of Christ imagery about the whole, right? Not about individuals. That is true, so far as I can recall anyway. Now, I think there are ways in which it does still, you brought up Song of Songs earlier, right? I think that Song of Songs is written to the community. It's also written to the individual, right? It is about God's desire for you. Jason M. Craig (43:46.382) Mm-hmm. David Russell Mosley (43:51.748) reader of this text right now, right? Community and individual. But I 100 % agree that the adoption is into the sonship of Christ, that everybody, women and men, this is the thing that we're being adopted into. We are, yes, all children of God, absolutely. We are all sons and daughters of the Most High, but this adoption, what's going on kind of metaphysically here, is an adoption into Jason M. Craig (43:55.202) Yeah. David Russell Mosley (44:21.187) Christ's particular sonship. We are being made co-heirs and in a language and in a culture where heir meant firstborn son and that that's the appropriate understanding of what that means, that we need to import some of that, not necessarily into our own culture. It's not a call to go back to, only your firstborn son should inherit everything that you have and everyone else Girls or boys need to figure out how they're going to live after that. Right. But that, yes, it is this sense of we need everybody really realizing that it is is Christ. It is the particularity of Christ as the son of God. That's what we're being adopted into. And so for me, when I have talked with students, it's both right. Both tend to need to be emphasized. Jason M. Craig (44:52.822) Yeah, good luck. Jason M. Craig (45:10.892) Yeah. I would, oops, sorry. Jason M. Craig (45:19.66) Yeah, well, I where I arrived in thinking over these things because, you know, sword and spade comes from the Apostolate of fraternist, which is a brotherhood of men that has the primary job of really convincing that it belongs to men as fathers and to be brothers so that communally they have the possibility of initiating their sons. And this is David Russell Mosley (45:23.587) Mm-hmm. David Russell Mosley (45:37.783) Yeah. Yes. David Russell Mosley (45:43.459) Mm-hmm. Jason M. Craig (45:47.107) because without that communal aspect, you really can't, you're on, know, one father is not enough on his own, he needs brotherhood. So I think a lot about communicating. I arrived at recognizing that the bridal, and this was from a friend who's a religious who, cause I have a section of this in, Leading Warhead Behind, which is the book on initiation for Catholic men. And he, he's, he's a religious and he said, you know, one thing he noticed, David Russell Mosley (45:50.221) me. David Russell Mosley (46:00.26) Mm-hmm. Jason M. Craig (46:15.724) was that the bridal imagery was a lot in devotional literature, devotional works written by religious, and that he said he had the capacity to have this imaginary idea and. David Russell Mosley (46:22.677) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. David Russell Mosley (46:31.363) Mm-hmm. Jason M. Craig (46:32.682) it help his spiritual life in his way. But he worked with young college student men. He said, I don't I think it would be unwise and imprudent for me to propose that. what occurred to me is that the bridal image is the is the metaphor symbol comparison, whereas the filial adoption is the reality. So. David Russell Mosley (46:56.387) Yeah. Jason M. Craig (46:58.774) Devotionally speaking, I think we're only talking in matters of prudence when it comes to presentation. And so you would argue that telling a man he's like a lady, I know that's not just how you're putting it, might be helpful. Knock him up and knock him up his feet. I've come to think that the, and maybe you would agree because of your study that the, I think it's the, what Paul Kings North calls the wild Christianity, the old, David Russell Mosley (47:04.341) Mm-hmm. Right. David Russell Mosley (47:25.655) Mm-hmm. Jason M. Craig (47:28.002) the sort of the wild gruff, even the holy fools. And it's because they are men that are rugged and tough who don't want the achievements that men have our world. I think the Western man is plagued not merely by a machismo. Like it's obvious to say if you walk around the world with your lens colored and shaped, David Russell Mosley (47:31.373) Yeah. Yeah. David Russell Mosley (47:38.803) Mm-hmm. Right. David Russell Mosley (47:47.523) you David Russell Mosley (47:51.885) Mm-hmm. Jason M. Craig (47:54.031) completely by dominating other men, right? And there is, there's like a movement of like, you gotta be an alpha male to be, well, if your lens is that I will dominate other men, then I don't see how you can read the scriptures comfortably and be a Christian. Now, it's not a matter of being weak or not prepared even for a fight or being, that's not what I mean. I love the, and maybe it's the St. Patrick ruggedness and even the French. David Russell Mosley (47:57.069) Right. David Russell Mosley (48:00.868) Mm-hmm. David Russell Mosley (48:15.81) Right. David Russell Mosley (48:22.647) Mm-hmm. Jason M. Craig (48:23.984) the strip I think we have to be stripped of our mana I think our problem is not that we want to achieve and dominate I think it's that mana as a form of power achievement money status that those are the things so this is a prudential Europe but you're a teacher you know you sometimes you've got to have the zinger that knocks someone off but it ultimately comes to our refusal to be humbled into the position of sonship that we actually it yeah David Russell Mosley (48:33.431) Mm-hmm. Yep. David Russell Mosley (48:49.783) Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, no, 100%. I 100 % agree. Absolutely. That was great. Jason M. Craig (48:53.738) Alright, that was great for you. All right, all right. All right. We're in agreement. The argument didn't get too tense. And if it did, we edited it out of the podcast. I mean, it got no, you're a girl. No, you're a girl. All right. I'd like to ask, though, in your conversion, well, we're running low on time because you're an interesting guy. But no, you're not. So no, you're not talking too long. You're the guest. I'm talking too long. I mean, a bad host. So it's it's it's me, man. It's me. I'm the girl. All right. David Russell Mosley (49:07.811) Hahaha! David Russell Mosley (49:17.399) I know. I'm talking too long. I'm sorry. Jason M. Craig (49:27.79) I happen to know just because I watched the end David Russell Mosley (49:31.811) Clip that. Clip that, by the way, just so that you can use that anytime you need to for him. Right? Clip that one. He said it. Jason M. Craig (49:37.485) YouTube short, I'm a girl, I'm a girl. tweet that baby. All right, TikTok this. So I just happen to know the end of the story. I read your beautiful story about your twins arriving at cancer. or getting cancer and surviving, which you point out in your interviews, or one of the twins and how you had found a home in the liturgical cycles of the Catholic Church. You know, that was a beautiful, you know, image. I will put in the show notes that story that you wrote. I found it. It was was I think it's actually worth reading in depth. One thing, though, speaking of, you know, us both having David Russell Mosley (49:59.246) Yeah. Yes. David Russell Mosley (50:15.853) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Jason M. Craig (50:26.882) It sounds like an understanding of sort of where the American man is and the you know, we deal in fraternists and swords pay. We're talking about fatherhood. We're talking about how do we how do we now how do we now do this because fatherhood and sonship is the dynamic we're talking about which is it is both achievement and gift at the same time and this is why I think sonship is such an important lens and deification is such an important doctrine and the mystical body is such an important because to be a part of the mystical body you have to die. David Russell Mosley (50:47.839) Mm-hmm. Jason M. Craig (50:55.276) It's a diet to self not achieve, but Sonship is really the only place I can think of where, you know, achievement and gift are like one thing. They're not separated. You work, you know, to be a co-heir is to receive and have responsibility and agency at the same time. But you also, one thing I'd like you to help. We've had plenty, you know, you're a reader. We've had a lot of guests lately making the case for reading. David Russell Mosley (51:05.644) Okay. David Russell Mosley (51:22.403) Mm. Jason M. Craig (51:24.94) just reading literature. And I hope they're being convinced that that they should read. mean, but I do think this is in the time of the Internet and the time of everything going on, that it's essential that fathers become readers again, because that's how we will, you know, anyone who thinks you're going to restore Christendom through a website is just delusional and doesn't know anything about Christendom. So. David Russell Mosley (51:31.043) you David Russell Mosley (51:37.462) Mm-hmm. David Russell Mosley (51:41.653) Okay. David Russell Mosley (51:46.892) Right. Jason M. Craig (51:50.999) Tell me though about your work with the idea of myth. Because again, in our, I think our common language to say myth just means untrue, right? That's a myth. I think even our, fact checkers these days will, will tell someone they're wrong by telling them that's a myth. In which I think I might hear that and go, so it's true, you know? So tell a father, explain to me, I'm a father. Maybe I went to public school. David Russell Mosley (51:55.426) Yeah. David Russell Mosley (52:00.45) Right. Right. David Russell Mosley (52:09.847) Mm-hmm. David Russell Mosley (52:17.121) Yeah. Jason M. Craig (52:20.312) Maybe I fell away from the faith, but I had a conversion and you know, I've watched a lot of Jordan Peterson. So now you know or whatever. But I don't know why I would read mythology. I don't have you know and what is mythology and why is my embodiment of it? What does that even mean? Yeah, tell me tell us about myth. David Russell Mosley (52:28.514) Yeah. David Russell Mosley (52:40.909) Yeah. Yeah, myth. It's so interesting because it's not like when the words first being used, it's not being countered with truth. It's a way of engaging truth, right? And there's a way that we mean that in a way that we don't, right? Yes, a lot of myths deal with how can this ancient people explain this natural phenomenon, right? So like Why do we have spiders? Because a woman weaved a tapestry that ticked off the gods. And so Athena turned her into one. And sure, we have stories like that, but even that's not what that story is about. Right. That story is about being offensive to the gods. Right. Of not properly honoring those who deserve honor from you because of who they are, because of what they provide, because of these kinds of things. And so Jason M. Craig (53:12.782) That's right. David Russell Mosley (53:37.34) Myth is when Christianity engages in myth, when the pagans engage in myth, they are trying to get at a truth that can't be grasped in any other way. Right? That's the point. Right? Whatever a person's stance is on the creation of the earth, right? Let's use that as our example here. How long ago, how long it took, et cetera, et cetera. Jason M. Craig (53:55.48) Hmm. David Russell Mosley (54:05.655) The one thing that we know is that there is something mythic in what's going on in Genesis 1 through 3, right? That the author is trying to do something and literally trying to show us why the other myths of the age are false, right? That's an intentional thing. It's why he doesn't, the Hebrew doesn't use the words for sun and moon in Genesis 1, right? Not because Hebrew doesn't have them. It has them. It uses them later. But no, it's the great light and the lesser light. Why? Because people worship the sun and the moon. And yet, there is this quality, right, this desire to tell deep truths. And not only sometimes, I'd say most of the time, to truly convey a deep truth, the analytic, kind of didactic, lecturing style Jason M. Craig (54:38.445) Hmm. David Russell Mosley (55:02.505) is not the way to get somebody to embody or inhabit that truth. We need stories to do that. And almost every guy who, you know, wants to say, I don't really like reading, I don't see the point in reading fiction or reading myth or reading whatever, they're still consuming a ton of myth. They just don't recognize it, right? They're watching Braveheart. They're watching Saving Private Ryan, right? They're, they think that Jason M. Craig (55:26.55) Right. David Russell Mosley (55:32.161) basketball players or football players or whomever are actually important people, right? They have bought in to the myth that these are the things that matter. And we are conveying deep truths of struggle, of competition, of victory, as well as victory and defeat, right? All of these things make up the world around us. But when we remove the story element, Jason M. Craig (55:43.928) Hmm. Jason M. Craig (55:59.119) you David Russell Mosley (56:02.03) When we remove the narrative, right, we in essence remove ourselves from it. Because a big part of the point of reading is I'm sure many of your guests have talked about is that opportunity to put yourself into the shoes of another, right, to see with a thousand eyes, right, with myriad eyes. Lewis quotes a Greek poem attributed to Plato talking about this, right, that we we see with the myriad eyes and yet remain ourselves. that is what, that's one of the things myth can provide. The other thing it provides is this view of reality as something soaked with meaning, right? That a tree is not just a tree. It's not something I should worship, right? I shouldn't bow down before it, but I need to recognize that it's more than Jason M. Craig (56:47.694) you David Russell Mosley (57:00.405) what my senses observe it to be. And therefore, while it is there for my use, it's there for its own purposes too. And working that out correctly, right? You've you're a farmer, right? You you know this, you know that the things that we grow, we we do it for utility. But also if you're not treating the soil well, if you're not growing things in connection with one another in a good way, you don't Jason M. Craig (57:09.9) Yeah. David Russell Mosley (57:26.785) get the best yield of the crop and you ruin the land that you're farming on. Right? Again, I grew up in Illinois with monoculture farming. It's awful. But yeah, back to Genesis. Jason M. Craig (57:31.084) Yeah, I think that to go back to Genesis, the. Jason M. Craig (57:36.707) Yeah, think that, yeah, back to Genesis, I think the the command to till and keep actually is a meaning use the thing in a way that preserves it, which the reason that's such a difficult idea now is that we live in a world completely of extraction and inputs and outputs. And as to and this comes up a lot of this podcast, which I think we should continually repeat it because it's critical, which is the. David Russell Mosley (57:41.783) Yeah. David Russell Mosley (57:47.383) Yes. David Russell Mosley (57:54.285) Right. Yep. Jason M. Craig (58:03.535) Heidegger's idea that in the technological society, start to view everything around you as standing reserve. In other words, it's plastic. You may mold it into what you want for profit and you don't violate something sacred. Right. So these developers around me that are, you know, have pools of money, you know, in the stock exchange and investors that live nowhere near me that then locate a piece of property and force houses upon it to they're not there. There is something evil in that because they are not actually human. David Russell Mosley (58:24.781) Mm-hmm. David Russell Mosley (58:29.205) and you're Jason M. Craig (58:40.752) Looking at a human need and meeting it and true economic exchange. They're imposing their will because they see my community as plastic something that they can melt down and then to reconstitute something they can sell. So for a place to actually have meaning you have to be approximate to it. That's important. your what you said right there. I think is something back to what a myth does it tells you something that's true. without explaining with didactics with analysis. I think the reason I propose that fathers, by the way, we're doing this. maybe this is the big announcement. We probably should have done it better. The marketers will tell us not to do it this way. But in the summertime, we're going to be sending out guides for fathers and sons to be reading the myths and literature together. David Russell Mosley (59:20.963) Mm-hmm. David Russell Mosley (59:24.856) Ha David Russell Mosley (59:33.763) Nice. Jason M. Craig (59:33.935) And the reason is fathers have, fathers have learned so much wisdom that they want to give their sons. But the way it comes out so often is us continue. I do this. I do. I'm about to say, let me, let me just accuse myself. I called myself a girl earlier. Now I call myself an idiot. I will sit there and try to explain. David Russell Mosley (59:40.387) Mm-hmm. Jason M. Craig (59:56.815) You know these truths and I see it as seen in a son who's not getting it. So I start over. All right, let me try it this way. Let me try it that way and I know what I'm saying to be true. I know what I'm saying to be true and. I want them to know that it's true. But then when I there's something that's going on in our in our family, I sort of and we've just talked about it and talked about it talked about it. David Russell Mosley (01:00:02.563) Mm-hmm. David Russell Mosley (01:00:07.234) Mm-hmm. Jason M. Craig (01:00:23.47) And yesterday we're coming home from mass and something occurred to me and I said, you know, guys, they were upset. We went back to Genesis. We said and we talked about that story and I said, you I think this matters to us for all of a sudden this idea. Once we got the myth just clicked and we all saw it together, you know, so we all had the news with my older sons is this thing we're dealing with, which I won't because they're. David Russell Mosley (01:00:31.427) Mm-hmm. David Russell Mosley (01:00:43.341) Mm-hmm. Jason M. Craig (01:00:49.546) persons that deserve not to be shared on the internet. But it so I think for fathers, I don't think they realize the gift they have one in being able to teach through our inherited myths, but also you're a fool. If you don't think that the mythology that your son is receiving from the world is not doing something. David Russell Mosley (01:01:00.035) Mm-hmm. Jason M. Craig (01:01:15.566) It is not telling the story is not proposing deep truths. It is shaping his very imagination and that the fact that it is not coming from the father of the home is disastrous. So I have my my good friend, co editor sword and spade. I'll call him out because he won't come on podcast. So I just bring him up and say if you want to speak for yourself and come on out in another way, I'll speak for you. But David Russell Mosley (01:01:22.007) Mm-hmm. David Russell Mosley (01:01:30.071) Mm-hmm. David Russell Mosley (01:01:41.919) you Jason M. Craig (01:01:44.911) He's like, I'm so sick of classical education. And his reasoning is not that I'm not all about these texts. said, I need someone to help me engage my sons with these things so that as they enter my world with me, that we need to be telemakous and Odysseus together. David Russell Mosley (01:01:49.805) Mmm. Jason M. Craig (01:02:06.542) And I need that help, you know, and I don't just need everyone basically making and he's talking about the homeschool world. I don't need all these Tweety pipe guys selling books to my wife to teach my kids and bypassing the father altogether. know. David Russell Mosley (01:02:09.443) Mm-hmm. David Russell Mosley (01:02:20.247) Right. Yeah. No, no, you're absolutely right. It's and that's it's a struggle. You know, I run a book club at my school for parents, right? The whole point of it being, hey, come read the stuff or at least the kind of stuff that your kids are reading. And, you know, I started them on easier things. We started with like Lewis and Tolkien and Chesterton and stuff like that. And now we're reading through the Divine Comedy. But I only have a couple of guys who actually show up to that. Right? And I'm not, I'm not selling anything. It's free to come. Right? But it is, it's so hard. And, and it is a thing that, yeah, we need, we need to convince people of, and we need to convince men of that this is worth your time because it's the only way that you also will become more human. And that's the only way that you can help your sons. Jason M. Craig (01:02:53.475) Yep. David Russell Mosley (01:03:17.879) become more human and therefore, yeah, become better sons, better men, right, is by engaging in these things yourself. Yeah. Jason M. Craig (01:03:22.254) You know how to get them in there? I think one, you could charge money, have a fire, and don't let the women come. think then I might get to go. David Russell Mosley (01:03:34.788) is true. No, and that would... No, you're absolutely right. Like, I wanted the guys to come, if I wanted more men to come, it would have to be men only. And I do think there's good in that, and there's something potentially impoverished in that as well, because it's not like... it's not just for them either, right? And so I'm trying to find that middle space where we can get everyone together. And it's not impossible. It's hard. Jason M. Craig (01:03:51.692) Yep. Jason M. Craig (01:04:01.23) Yeah. David Russell Mosley (01:04:04.771) And I get that. And that's why I love the, yeah. Sorry, go ahead. Jason M. Craig (01:04:05.28) It's hard. Well, I find my wife and I have some of our best conversations. Sorry. Well, yeah, my wife and I, by the way, edit this out later, but for me, I can hear you immediately, but there's obviously a delay for you that I don't have. So when I jump in, it comes slowly. So I'm sorry about that. My observation, one great place for a... you know, men and women to come together in the conversation around these things is actually in their marriage, you know, to cultivate that. And the reason is when I and the reason that's critical, especially when we're about education is I think people think of these things, you know, classical education would have been in the past as we talk about it, an initiation into an existing culture where it initiates you into the grand arch myth that everyone's living by and David Russell Mosley (01:04:53.123) Mm-hmm. Jason M. Craig (01:05:00.854) The contrast now is we're initiating them with a cultures that doesn't exist with their form of initiation. So there's something critical about parents and communities. David Russell Mosley (01:05:13.219) Mm-hmm. Jason M. Craig (01:05:14.138) re-adopting these myths so that their education doesn't become, again, I bet if you scratch the surface, the reason that occurs is because I really just want them to be an enjoyable person, but I need them to be successful. That's the purpose, and it's kind of this worldly, you know. That's really, I I hear you, like, come on. And I agree, economics are a part. I'm not opposed. I I want my sons to go to trade school, that's them being a plumber. But... David Russell Mosley (01:05:22.071) Mm-hmm. David Russell Mosley (01:05:29.241) absolutely. David Russell Mosley (01:05:39.619) Mm. Jason M. Craig (01:05:42.575) We have to adopt and have this culture or we treat education. Here's the analogy is some people having a conversation with a friend, train their, they have their children train in like classical instruments. We play a lot of music in our family. It's a thing for us. And then, but they will never play them, right? Like in a communal jam or just like add a thing with their community. David Russell Mosley (01:06:01.924) Mm-hmm. David Russell Mosley (01:06:09.613) Mm-hmm. Jason M. Craig (01:06:11.734) And I thought, well, why are they learning music? What's a part of their education? Well, but what's it for? I mean, if it's not for their people, so if they're not actually going towards a culture where these things are played and enjoyed, then it's really not for that. It's for some sort of like feather in the cap thing. Whereas so all this literature they're learning, it's not so that they put the feather in their cap. David Russell Mosley (01:06:21.848) Okay. Jason M. Craig (01:06:39.616) It's so that they can actually share this with people. think that, so that work you're doing, I'm sure it's grinding, but that's an important aspect. David Russell Mosley (01:06:42.807) Mm-hmm. David Russell Mosley (01:06:46.851) No, you're absolutely right. And it's... it is. It's... we're trying to... yeah, we're trying to rebuild a culture, right? One that's particular to where we are, right? Cultures are different in different times and places, utilizing very often the same texts. And we're trying to figure out what that looks like here, right? Here in the United States, here in Washington, wherever you are. And it will always look... little different, right? That's the beauty of the universality of the church is that it's universal precisely insofar as it is also particular. and so we have all of these, right? And so but yes, it is that we've got I've got a co-worker who who says this all the time. You know, a kid won't really receive a classical education unless their parent wants it for themselves as well. Right? That Jason M. Craig (01:07:24.76) Yeah, it works. just works. David Russell Mosley (01:07:45.652) we can we can do all we can we can introduce them to these texts but if it's not being reinforced at home it's not being reinforced in the broader community then we will have at the very least given them a lot of tools that if they can find a community or build one later that will have effect but otherwise yeah it'll be a feather in the cap they'll be able to say yeah i read Dante when i was in high school when did you read it never i'm better than like Jason M. Craig (01:08:13.483) Hahaha! David Russell Mosley (01:08:15.139) And that's not what we want, right? We're not trying to build elitists. We're trying to up human beings, men and women. That is the goal. And it is, yeah. Jason M. Craig (01:08:18.168) Yeah. Jason M. Craig (01:08:27.182) I agree with, I think it does have a massive effect on the individual to have these texts, these things embedded in the soul. They're helpful aids, in the way that someone who prays the Psalms regularly has the words. David Russell Mosley (01:08:44.087) Mm-hmm. Jason M. Craig (01:08:45.474) to respond to a sunrise, you know, or has the words to respond to the stars, you know, who am I? That's your, that's what you, that's what you say when you look at stars. There's my, cause I need a response and you give me a classical education and those, as we were, you know, we're basically talking about reading the great books and, or as John C. Recall, all all the good ones too. You know, it does do something for the individual. just, I would agree with you that it, the task of that becoming culture, David Russell Mosley (01:08:52.085) Mm-hmm. Right. Right. David Russell Mosley (01:09:05.507) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Jason M. Craig (01:09:15.408) again. won't is not actually in these schools because the schools can't do it. They're they're in a in an an an intentional artificial environment. I don't mean artificial in a bad way. You know, like I was to say a house is artificial and so is a school there meant made by man. But for it to become living in whole it's got to take root in local communal ways. So how that looks you that's up for our listeners figure it out. Well, I'd like to. David Russell Mosley (01:09:17.123) Mm-hmm. David Russell Mosley (01:09:29.987) Mm-hmm. Right. David Russell Mosley (01:09:43.595) Right, tell us. Jason M. Craig (01:09:46.605) Yeah, that's right, please. That'd be helpful. I'd like then to maybe wrap up with this question, which is something we end with a lot. How long have you been teaching and what grades? David Russell Mosley (01:10:05.911) Yeah, so, I've, that's, it's a complicated question in a sense because I've, I've been in classrooms for a very long time. in terms of like, as a job, I started teaching college, as an adjunct back in 2015. and then I started teaching in a high school back in April of 2017, which is also the same time I entered into the Catholic church. So. at the high school level about nine years this April, all told over 10 years I've been teaching. Jason M. Craig (01:10:42.638) Okay, so you, and then kind of my. David Russell Mosley (01:10:44.643) then grades, yeah, high school and college have been what I've been teaching. Jason M. Craig (01:10:49.578) Okay, so that's just setting up my question is that it sounds like your story. You sound you were admittedly it basically you were describing yourself as a dork when you were younger. But but the cool kind right you got the anime guy and then or we should say nerd. My wife says I use the word dork way too often, but you know an intensely will call intensely literary you found your way to Christ. David Russell Mosley (01:11:05.313) Yo, absolutely. David Russell Mosley (01:11:11.853) Ha ha ha! Jason M. Craig (01:11:17.294) You found your way to church. You've had a very academic life for a long time, which gives you a valuable insight. I think that you could give because some people that some people use academic the way they might say every man is a slur. he's just academic where you're actually not realizing that the great wisdom and insights you're gaining by living in and around young men and women as they're transitioning out of. David Russell Mosley (01:11:17.571) Mm-hmm. Jason M. Craig (01:11:45.485) the world of their family and their childhood and into the world. You've actually been experiencing some of the most potent times of people's life while holding the fire of these old works and stuff. So what is fires and dangers and illuminating? I don't know how old your twins are at this point. They were, well, they were, I'm going to just guess they must have been born somewhere around 2015, 16. David Russell Mosley (01:12:14.755) 2014. Jason M. Craig (01:12:15.182) Based on your story, 2014 almost OK. What what's an insight for us fathers that you've observed? Maybe keep it specifically to fathers and you know you have your own pain from your father. It sounds like I won't. We know we're not prying here, but. David Russell Mosley (01:12:17.763) So there'll be 12 this May. Jason M. Craig (01:12:36.428) Yeah, what sort of insights have you gained that maybe we men are missing about our households as we send them off to classical schools and colleges and things? What are we missing? David Russell Mosley (01:12:47.853) I I think, and again, I think that this particular thing is generally getting better, but presence, I think, is the number one thing. It's, again, the way our culture is designed. You leave home for eight or 10 or 12 hours a day. If you have the energy for hobbies, those take you out of the house, too, for a bit, and then, with what little time is left, you're home. and some of that will be while your kids are still awake, especially when they're young, and then the rest of it's while they're asleep. And so presence, I think, is the number one thing. Being there with them. Encouraging them in the things that they are good at, walking alongside them, conversing with them. So I only have the two sons at present. One is a great lover. Jason M. Craig (01:13:24.236) Yeah. David Russell Mosley (01:13:45.276) of reading and the other is a great lover of art. And I try to engage in those hobbies with them, talking to them about what they're reading, what they're drawing, being present, right? Being present, being with them. And when they're heading to things that I am already familiar with, of helping to guide them in that direction as much as I can to, again, be there with them. It's It's such an important thing and I and like and to talk with them, right? To discuss these things with them, to talk to them about what are you reading? Why do you like that? What is attracting you to this? What's your interest in all of this? It's that conversation, right? That by doing that, you're telling them you are part of this great conversation as well, right? You are Jason M. Craig (01:14:27.534) you Jason M. Craig (01:14:34.872) Mm-hmm. David Russell Mosley (01:14:43.275) part of this. This is a conversation that's been going on, you know, depending what we're talking about since we could talk, right? Since human beings were capable of speech, we have been talking about these things. You are a man who is going to go forward and and continue this work and that's that's what I want from them, right? I think one of the biggest things about classical education is this view that it's all in the past. Right? All the good stuff is done. The modern world sucks. So let's go live our neo medieval romantic view of reality. And we'll call it a day and it's no, right? There are things to bring forward, but let's make new things. And how can you as my sons, as my children, how can you do that? Right? What's the way that's unique to you? Jason M. Craig (01:15:11.662) Hmm. Jason M. Craig (01:15:32.098) Mm-hmm. David Russell Mosley (01:15:40.088) And I say this as somebody who is a very imperfect practitioner of these things. I'm calling out myself in what I'm saying right now, but it is, I think, the thing that we need. We need to be present. We need to be walking alongside our sons and leading them to what comes next. Leading them to adulthood and encouraging them. Jason M. Craig (01:16:00.207) Bye! David Russell Mosley (01:16:09.429) in that, right? That it's good to want to step out on your own so long as you don't leave behind what's been handed on to you. Jason M. Craig (01:16:18.68) Right? Yeah, I think that's what, to bring it full circle, that's the image of the filial image that I think will flesh out what deification looks like in our relationships as fathers and sons, that I am being who I am as a father by giving my life to you. And then you grow up into this life as, you know, in Trinitarian terms, truly one with me, but truly my son at the same time. David Russell Mosley (01:16:28.599) Yeah, absolutely. Jason M. Craig (01:16:47.118) David Russell Mosley, thank you for being on the Swords Bay podcast. It's been a delight and a pleasure and thank you for being better dressed than me for the video part of it. So. Alright, you guys can look David Russell Mosley up. I saw that he had a YouTube channels or any other things we should check out. Keep up with you. David Russell Mosley (01:16:52.193) Hey, thanks for having me. David Russell Mosley (01:16:58.38) Always. David Russell Mosley (01:17:07.043) I've got a sub stack, Mosley's Marginalia is what it's called. And then, yeah, I keep a pretty open digital footprint so that if people want to find the kind of stuff I'm working on, search my full name and you'll find me. Jason M. Craig (01:17:24.93) Great, well, I'm just getting into the world of Substack. I don't know, maybe we become buddies or something, whatever it's called. Sword and Spade has that too. Maybe we'll find something to publish on there from you. Thank you so much. If you guys are not, if you're listening and you're not a subscriber of Sword and Spade Magazine, you're making a terrible mistake. Cause if you liked this conversation, that's what we're doing, except not on the internet where it's better. All right, thanks again for being on the Sword and Spade Podcast. Talk to you next time, David. David Russell Mosley (01:17:29.357) Ha ha ha ha. David Russell Mosley (01:17:34.189) Sounds good. David Russell Mosley (01:17:45.964) Amen. David Russell Mosley (01:17:50.083) Thanks. Thanks for having me. Jason M. Craig (01:17:58.594) Thanks David, that was fun. David Russell Mosley (01:18:00.259) Yeah, thank you. I had a great time. Jason M. Craig (01:18:03.138) Yeah, great. I appreciate your time. I don't know what you were supposed to do today, but I know that took a while of your Friday morning. David Russell Mosley (01:18:09.677) That's alright. I've got I've got twenty minutes before I gotta get the kids to school and then I'm off to work myself. Jason M. Craig (01:18:11.48) Great. Jason M. Craig (01:18:17.036) Alright, well if you're ever in North Carolina, come see me. David Russell Mosley (01:18:20.748) Hey, if you're ever in Washington, well, the east side of it's a big state. If you're ever in Spokane. Jason M. Craig (01:18:22.922) I don't I don't leave. Yeah. OK, Spokane. I'll keep it in mind. All right, John, am I good to leave or I'm still uploading? OK, and then maybe David has to hang around. David Russell Mosley (01:18:27.907) Ha David Russell Mosley (01:18:36.141) Same here, it's all uploaded. Jason M. Craig (01:18:42.158) Mine still says 99 % uploading. John, can I? David Russell Mosley (01:18:43.139) OK. Yeah, mine too. Jason M. Craig (01:18:51.096) Okay. Jason M. Craig (01:18:55.72) Now if I press leave though, the upload still continues, right? If it hasn't. All right, well then I'm leaving. See y'all. David Russell Mosley (01:19:03.157) All right, John, am I good to go too? Okay, very good. Thanks so much.