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#31 When You Mix College With ADHD · College Is Fine, Everything's Fine

All right, so we are really excited to have one of my old friends from the Child Study Center join me. This is Dr. Yama Diaz, and I will let her introduce herself.Sure. Well, I'm a child and adolescent psychologist at the NYU Child Study Center in the Department of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry. , and I've actually been there. I, I just had my, I think my 12 year anniversary. And just for fun, because I'll be. Sharing this for, for a while. , I just celebrated my 20 year, what I'm calling my ADHD anniversary., after finding the very first set of notes I ever took about h ADHD during a call with my academic advisor, , and I can see in the notes that I'm definitely first learning about adhd. , and that's when I think the, the love for specializing in children and families, , who have ADHD sort of started.That is the cutest story.  Thank you. It was a nice little nostalgic moment of nostalgia for sure.Yeah, anda wooden anniversary, a silver anniversary? Like what is the 20 year anniversary?Ooh, that's a good question. I should have gifted myself something, although I guess I, the gift is specializing in h, ADHD and getting a chance to be so fulfilled in what I do. They, that's what, that's what the gift was.Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yamas. I'm gonna look it upOnce I find out, I'm gonna remind myself like, you should give yourself silver.You should give yourself gold. Yeah, I don't know what it is. <LAUGH> 25. Well, Liz, you asked the next question. I'm gonna Google it.Okay. Um, okay. So I, I think in the zeitgeist, a lot of people know what ADHD is. Some of our listeners may have been diagnosed with it. Other people might identify with some of the symptoms related to adhd, and we definitely are not here to diagnose anyone. , but what maybe what are some of the myths out there about ADHD that you think might be helpful to debunk?Well, I think probably one of the myths I always try to debunk is that ADHD has to do with intelligence or intellectual ability. And it, it really just does not. , and I wanna sort of clarify. Um, problems with attention can certainly impact your ability to take in new information, to retain that information and to produce information, right?Like actually get your work done. And , I guess as far as that's concerned, it probably does impact. The outcome of your intellectual sort of output. but as a starting point, I think I hear parents, teenagers, young adults who are diagnosed with adhd, , really start to fret about what that means about their learning potential.And so I like to separate out and make sure people really understand that. Your intellectual potential and the way in which attention can maybe impact that are two different things, right? And so we like to identify in what way very specifically does the attention deficit get in the way of your intellectual potential?You have the, in the intellect, you, you, you have it. And now we just need to make sure to clear the path for it. And that's where we think about, inattention. , so I like to sort of clarify right up front that ADHD and, you know, not being smart or it just, th those two things are not related. So that's one of the ones that sort of hurts my heart when I hear it., I think the other one that I often see is that there's a sort of a negative. , narrative that, , kids and people with a D H D develop about themselves. and a lot of that negative narrative comes from the negative feedback that they receive from a very early age all the way through their development about their behavior. things that might be frustrating or annoying or too much too loud, whatever it might be. And eventually there's this very sort of negative narrative that they have about themselves. , and so I suppose it might not necessarily be a myth because it is in fact their experience of the way that they get that negative feedback.But I'm sort of on a mission to debunk the negative narrative, right? That if you pay very careful attention to what it is people are telling you. There may be some behaviors that need to be worked on, but it doesn't make you a bad person, you know, and you fill in the, the terms that people use. It can be anything from stupid, lazy, you know, too much, , too intense, annoying, frustrating, I mean, all of the words that, that they use.And eventually, that's some of the conversation that they have with themselves. , which really. Also breaks my heart. So I think those are probably the top two that I, I wanna start with. There's so many, but those are the two that I think bother me the most.and speaking as someone on this podcast who might struggle a little bit with adhd, I'd like to come back to the topic of the 20 year anniversary, which isplease do. Oh, so I owe myself ChinaChina. Yeah.was, it's such a meaningful anniversary. I will, I'm gonna, I'll gift myself something, uh, in some really, in a really lovely, um, porcelain, , okay. Thank you for thatno problem. But I did wanna say that, you know one word, and actually our friend and colleague, Dr. Taine, was the one who said this to me. He said, deficits sort of a misnomer, right? We say attention deficit, but it's actually a kind of a mismatch. of attention. Can you talk a bit more about that?Sure. Um, well, look, one of the things we know about ADHD is that a, a big component of it is not having enough dopamine in the brain. And at a very basic level, dopamine is the neurochemical in the brain that really helps with attention, focus, motivation, interest if you will. And so it sort of locks your brain into things that are.Interesting or stimulating. And it also helps you to determine what to attend to and what not to attend to. Right? How to basically leave out the things that are extra noise and how to focus in on what's important right in front of you. So you know when people don't understand adhd, they're sort of leaving out.How much your brain does for you automatically. The ADHD brain doesn't do that as automatically, and it's basically, some of it at least, is related to the dopamine, um, being too low. And so to come back to your question, what is this? Why is the word deficit a misnomer? The word deficit is a misnomer because it isn't just about not being able to pay attention.It's about not being able to direct your attention and to keep, maintain your attention in the direction it really needs to be going in. So when you finally do, for example, start doing something that you need to get done, your brain almost has like a bunch of open doors that people are just walking through, right?It's like having too many tabs open, and your brain doesn't know how to close the other tabs in order to focus on just the one tab. . Um, so maybe that's actually a, a sort of better way to think about it. We all know that too many tabs across the, the bottom of the screen, right? You could be going between a bunch of things, but never getting any one of them done.And so not being able to direct your attention to the tab, the task that you need to be focusing on. Is one piece of it. But then the, the real misnomer comes in with the hyperfocus of A D H D, right? Where once the brain gets locked and loaded on some particular task at hand, and it really activates those dopamine pathways, it's almost like the A D H ADHD brain does not know how to get out.And so it's like they've crawled into some. Space. , now the external world almost can't penetrate. And that can be really useful, by the way, who doesn't love a good hyperfocus, episode where you, you feel so productive, but at the same time, if you can't be brought out of that because you have to move on to something else, you really actually don't have the time to be hyper focusing on this one small thing, then that can also be problematic.Right? So at the end of the day, The attention deficit, quote unquote misnomer is in the fact that it isn't just that you cannot pay attention, it's that you can't direct your attention either when you need to be, um, avoiding distractions or when you're in hyper-focused mode and can't get yourself out of that.All right, we are talking about dopamine and we know from research, blah, blah, blah, that kids or teens or young adults with ADHD oftentimes struggle with certain things like video game addiction and so on and so forth. So again, we're not gonna say that everyone who has. ADHD struggles with that, but with those dopamine hits that they're looking for.Talk a bit about things like video games, scrolling on social media, things that you feel like could be potentially extra difficult for people to get distracted by in college.Sure. Well, look, we know that video games and social media were designed, at least in part, to activate some of those dopamine pathways that kind of get you intrigued by what you're doing and what you're watching. Um, and then of course they have built in features that. Additionally activate dopamine, right?Whether it be liking things or, , being able to repost or being able to buy things in a video game. All of those kinds of, uh, details. , at least in part, activate dopamine. And so the reason this is important for anybody to to understand is even without adhd, your brain is susceptible to kind of getting really hooked because it gives you a little dopamine buzz.And the more you do it, the more you get that little buzz. Um, for the ADHD brain, this is a particular concern because naturally the ADHD brain does not have enough dopamine, so it's almost like dopamine hungry. all the time and all of these kinds of things like video games and social media are like dopamine food.Well, if you're always hungry, then when you finally find your food source, that's where you're gonna be sort of spending time. That's where you're gonna get that dopamine. And so we know that the ADHD brain is at least a little more susceptible to spending more time. to becoming more intense about it and to really kind of hyper-focusing , on some of those platforms specifically because it activates the dopamine pathway and gets them really intrigued, really interested, and just locks them in., if we really think about it, if you spend your day. Feeling like your brain is a little more scattered. You can't quite find things as interesting, and then you finally find something that kind of gets you really interested. You're gonna wanna do that thing more. And so the, the warning is, is very simple.Monitor your own susceptibility to, you know, how much time you're spending to whether or not you can get off of it, when you should be. And most importantly, what is it keeping you from doing? What else should you be doing, um, when you are spending time on video games? and social media, it's neither one of those are all bad.They're, they actually contribute and add a lot of value to our social experience, uh in today's world. So it's not about bashing either one of those things, it's just about helping people recognize how they can self-manage a little bit more effectively. , and to be very aware once it crosses the line into actual addiction or interfering with.You're functioning, you know, if you're spending four to six to eight hours on it, that's four to six to eight hours that you certainly could have been doing other things. And that's something to watch, definitely something to monitor.I like that you mentioned that you're missing out on other things. Cuz , when I'm working with college students, a lot of times if I say, okay, what would you like to be doing instead? Like, if we were to fill your day, what are some things you'd like to do? Very rarely would someone say to me, I'd like to spend six hours a day on video games.They would say, okay, I know I need to study for this, but I really wanna. Maybe take a walk or I wanna do this activity or see this friend have a coffee. , or, you know, listen, sometimes they've said I'm burnt out. I just kind of need a day to lay low um, but rarely do people say, I really just only wanna spend my time doing this, doing, um, in front of this screen or this device. And so to be able to say, what would you wanna be doing instead and sort of pack your day around those things and fill it in with the other type of downtime can be easier than just saying, Hey, don't do this.Um, so that's huge advice.  Just circling back to some things you said earlier When you were debunking the miss, um, I tend to find that individuals who have ADHD really internalize some of these, beliefs.You know, they aren't achieving certain outcomes academically, so then they jump to this conclusion that they're not capable of doing it or. I'm annoying, like I engage in these behaviors sometime. Therefore, like it's a personality trait, like it's never going to change. Right? Or that they're less socially desirable, in some way. So I'm glad you brought those up because I'm constantly trying to work on some of these negative beliefs what are some of the strengths of individuals that have ADHD or kind of cool things that you notice about how their brains work? I did just wanna mention that I had, um, Really, uh, such an interesting and, and wonderful experience being part of, a documentary called The Disruptors, which is streaming on most platforms. I would highly recommend,, that your listeners watch this amazing documentary about adhd.I think the, the producers, uh and the filmmakers really did such a great job highlighting some of the challenges, of course, that come with adhd. But really what one of the things that I think they did that's so unique is they, interviewed. , celebrities who have ADHD as well as families. And, uh, clinicians who work with people with adhd.And what they did with the celebrities in particular was to really ask them how ADHD had actually, uh, led to some of the strengths and some of the, um, success that they have. And so it really does a nice job of highlighting. , some of the superpowers and some of the strengths that come with a d h, adhd.And I don't like for those to get overlooked or, or lost because I think they can be leveraged in a, a really important way. So I'd highly recommend watching it. It's called the Disruptors. Um, I'm a small part of it, but I, , eagerly, , and excitedly suggest watching it. And Look, that hyperfocus State can be very useful if they learn. You know, I, I always describe it as, you know, becoming the driver and not the passenger. And if you're the passenger, then ADHD is driving. Um, ADHD is gonna stay in the passenger seat, but you should be the driver. And so identifying the ways in which ADHD kind of takes over the wheel and tries to drive you off course.And then very strategically learning how to take the wheel back. So, for example, in hyper-focus mode, um, ADHD just hopped in the driver's seat and it's like, I'm gonna have you focus on this really little thing. Um, and then you as the, as the real driver should be able to say, yes. I do wanna go down that path.We really need to work on that. Or no, no, no, this is not the time for that. And then developing some really good strategies for writing it down on a list, like having a board of things to come back to her, whatever strategy you use to take the wheel back. Right? So hyperfocus can be a strength. It can, it can really lead to some very, very good products.When you finally. Attend to something that really, um, stimulates your brain. , problem solving. , the uniqueness and the interest of the way that they approach problem solving can be really fascinating to watch. I love watching it unfold in kids, just in my office. . Um, and sometimes the parents will look at me and go, that doesn't even make any sense.And I'm like, well, now just wait a second. Let's back up a second. Let's have this little guy or this, you know, girl, tell us exactly what it was that they were thinking. And you can always see that I go into this mode where I'm like, we're about to prove you wrong, mom or dad. You just watch your child's brain work.Um, because I already know that when I ask the child to describe their. They're problem solving backwards, like their actual thought process, which we don't necessarily always get to see because they're pretty impulsive. So it looks like it doesn't have a thought process. And so when you can ask them to reverse it and tell me, tell me exactly how you got to that conclusion, the detail and the, the little nuances that they put together in their solution is fascinating too.It, it's almost like you can watch their brain like moving, . Um, so problem solving. , they tend to be, believe it or not, for as much as we talk about having low frustration tolerance in children, we definitely see this kind of low frustration tolerance tendency where everything sort of overwhelms them and they give up and can get really easily frustrated.But as they get a little bit older, and certainly in young adults and and adults with adhd, one of the things we tend to see is like a, a tenacity and a resilience. And in part that is because by virtue of having adhd, they've always had to work a little harder. To do all the things. All the things you can name the task, name, the area of life, and I'll tell you the ways in which that's probably been a little bit harder.And yet here they are. Successful, happy, well-rounded friends, you know, relationships. But when we see those outcomes playing out, what you can trace back very clearly is a sense of like doggedness, resilience, tenacity. I like, they just get after it. They're like a dog with a bone and they just, they just make it happen somehow. Um, so those are probably, you know, I mean, I could go on. Some of the other ones are like sense of humor.They tend to be creative. one of my favorite things to watch in my office is another thing that I love to see is that they tend to have what I call the engineering. Architecture brains. Um, and you know, if I had a study to do, I probably would go and um, and check in to see how many architects and engineers have traits of adhd.Um, because the ADHD brain tends to be architect, uh, architectural kind of engineering type of brain where the way that they can construct and create things. Physically, like with Legos, magnet tiles, magnets, you give them. I mean, I have seen kids create things with paper tape and a, and a pair of scissors and they're like, do you have this?Do you have that? And then things that they create, the structures that they create are fascinating. Um, and this is just my observation of like, I don't understand how their brains even work. But. , it's fascinating to see. And you can almost see when their brain kind of gets locked in and they start to move their little fingers and they're doing all of this stuff.And you can see that what's happening is that not only is their brain locked in to this really great strength, but they are in fact creating amazing things. Um, so there are some very real strengths, , to this brain. Again, you just need to learn how to be the driver,I mean, Liz knows I love a metaphor and you've given us the tab metaphor, the driver metaphor.  Okay, so we have these people who, for. You know, probably have a lot of different ways in which they become a college student who was struggling with inattention or so on. once they are in college, what are some of the things you see?Oh gosh. I think the very first thing that I always worry about with, uh, young adults who are entering college and have adhd, first and foremost, if they don't know they have adhd, that is going to be a really tough go because they have no idea that without the extra scaffolding and supports of their parents and high school teachers and whatever other things were happening before they got to college.That all of that scaffolding comes apart and, and then they're really going to struggle to kind of manage the multiple demands, the time, the projects, staying on top of the reading when you have, you know, quizzes and all of the things are just very tough. But certainly even when they do know they have adhd, managing the downtime.and you know, really it's all about managing time at just at, at the outset. But I think one of the things that hurts them is the fact that the structure is so open. It's like a big open field of time and they're like, oh, this is gonna be a such an easy schedule. I have two classes on Monday and one class on Tuesday, and they just think they're gonna have plenty of time to do it all.And the next thing you know, they are just falling apart. and in part it's because they don't know how to manage their downtime. and the downtime becomes very open-ended, very loose. They don't know how to structure it for themselves, which is one of the natural sort of difficulties that the ADHD brain stru, um, struggles with.It doesn't have a sort of natural ability to organize time in a linear. sort of con, structured, organized way. So the more open the time, I call it having no edges, right? So it's like the day has no edges, and so it's like one big open space and they just don't know how to make sense of that. So when we, what one of the things we know is that the ADHD brain does best on a routine with structure, which means that the day needs edges, and when they first get to college, That's all up to them to figure out.It's no longer like follow this schedule that goes from eight to four, plus you have an afterschool activity or a sport, so you're not gonna be home until five 30, then you're gonna have dinner, you're gonna do your homework and you're gonna go to bed. Amazing. That's your schedule in college. It's all the things as we know.Um, so managing downtime. Along with managing the academic workload. And then one last thing which you sprinkle on top is, you know, where they look for their dopamine hits is going to be with their social time. That's where they, the ADHD brain thrives when it finds sources of dopamine and, you know, where they're gonna find the sources of dopamine hanging out with friends, socializing, going to programs and groups and whatever, whatever they're interested in.Um, so that's where their brain's gonna naturally want to gravitate. and then when they have to sit down to do the boring thing that does not naturally generate dopamine, again, they struggle. Um, so you sprinkle on top the social time and the fact that they're free to do technically whatever they want.and we really see the, young adults with ADHD really begin to struggle in their freshman and sophomore year in particular. And hopefully by middle of sophomore year, they have gotten supports. They've figured it out. They've learned how to add edges to their day and created the structure for themselves.and they're sort of in a rhythm, and then we can sort of see them begin to thrive.You know, we talk to a lot of college students who say, in fact, we just did it on one of our Instagram posts. Like, what is more stressful for you? Too much downtime or, too much to do. And we hear from students even whether they have ADHD or not, we don't ask, but a lot of them say that's a struggle to, even for a typical kind to go from high school, which is social structured, and it just kind of builds over time.Right. So by the time you get to college, at least I was like, let me, I need a break. You know? But yeah, without those edges, it can be really tough, I think for, for anyone. , I was gonna say, most teenagers are overscheduled, right? And a lot of their schedules handed to them and constructed by the environments in which they're in. I always say to college students, regardless if they have adhd, your biggest struggle is not not having enough time, it's gonna be managing your time effectively.You're gonna have too much time. Um, but you know, I we're hoping to air this episode soon and because I think some of the things you're talking about will help students as they enter into. like exams,Yep.what I find for adhd, um, individuals is writing tends to be incredibly challenging. And I think a lot of college students are un not really prepared in general for how much writing is involved, but for college students who struggle with organization planning are impulsive in terms of making a wise choice about going to an end of the year party versus, you know, planning for those end of the year projects. What are some things that you might share with them?Well, I think the, the biggest issue that they run into is that they tend to approach the task as a whole. And you guys know this, right? It'll be like, I have a paper to write. Okay? I have to sit down and write that paper. And already you have tricked your brain into number one, getting overwhelmed. And number two, not knowing where to start.Um, and so what, again, this is a perfect example of identify exactly how the ADHD is getting in the way and plug in a strategy to make sure that you can address the adhd, the ADHD brain, when you give it a big chunk of something is gonna be like, this is too much. And then the natural tendency is gonna be to move away from it.Well, this is a lot. I'll write it later. Oh, this is too much. I, I don't have time for this right now. Okay. But if you operate in what I call chicken nugget sizes , right? Don't eat the whole meal, uh, one bite at a, you know, one big bite at a time. Just break it down into chicken nuggets. Okay? So we know that one of the best things that students can do is take a big task.And identify first and foremost. Well, what would be the first thing I need to do? Well, if you have to write a paper, you have to identify what topic you wanna work on. That might actually take you a couple of, you know, a couple of Google searches or a checking in with your professor to see what it, what viable topic you could write on.Or if you do have like a prompt, um, really asking yourself, okay, what is this topic all about? Okay, so topic. And then you're gonna have to have at least a few sessions of quote unquote research where you're actually just researching the topic or, or starting to pull together content. And so just by taking the, I have to write a paper for this class and asking yourself, what's the first step?Okay, then what's the second, third, and fourth step? Do those, is it like a couple of sessions of research? All right, let me plug in an hour of research for this paper on Monday. An hour of research for this paper on Tuesday and then again on Friday. So once you start breaking it down to those pieces, then you actually take those and plug them into your work calendar.When, when are you going to do those things? The better the, the better way to do this is to ask yourself, how long do I have for that particular step? And so now you've identified the step. The amount of time you have for it and exactly where it goes on your calendar. And so if you break it down that way, we know how much better that will be.But oftentimes the ADHD brain in particular has a very hard time not only breaking it down, but then sticking to the. A little schedule that isn't like the night before. Um, and so to that point, I don't, I also just wanna debunk the myth that I hear from so many college students and really everybody, I work best under pressure.Um, and I'm gonna do better if I just wait until the last minute. Um, oh my think that's like. I know college students with A D H D, me, grad students,um, anxious students, it's, it's, actually, the reason I like to highlight this is cuz it's like, well, actually, you're not entirely wrong. It's just not a good model. Um, and the reason they're not entirely wrong is because the truth of the matter is that if they're working on something that is now, I call it being on fire.It is now on fire. Okay? It's hot, it's due tomorrow. , two important things are gonna happen. Number one, your dopamine is gonna activate at full throttle, okay? It is gonna, your brain is gonna shoot you some really nice dopamine to get you started because now you're panicked. And what's gonna follow the dopamine is gonna be a nice little surge of adrenaline, and you are gonna be, your brain is gonna be ready to fire.your body's pumping you're, you're, you are sitting at the computer. You're, you're typing faster than usual. Your thoughts are flying. You feel like you are doing some good work. Amazing now. . So you're not entirely wrong. Will you get it done? Yes. Is it easier to get it done this way than maybe it was a week ago when you were like feeling a little ho-hum about it and you needed to kind of drum up your own dopamine?Probably. Probably also, yes. So I see how they get convinced of this, but what I try to teach my, um, college students is that the reason this is not a good idea is because in addition to the fact that adrenaline in the brain, A little bit of it goes a long way, but too much of it actually starts to shut down some of your language areas, your processing, you know, et cetera.And so you're, you're really actually not probably going to produce the best work because you're, you're just like jamming together ideas. But number two, We know what happens post one of those surges, which is that your brain and body start to shut down and they're like, I need a break. That was, huh? I just hulked out.That was too much. I need to rest now. Well, if you have three papers, two exams, a project that you need to get, plus you're working and you have all of these other things going on, One paper working on it the night before, like that is just gonna burn you out. You're gonna, you're gonna use up all of your good energy when actually you need to spread that love out.Um, so I get it why they feel that way, but it's actually not a healthy way. And usually, by the way, the, the product that you get at the end, Look, some students are able to bang it out and I think they get reinforced cuz they're like, and I got an a ha. And you know what, again, God bless you, I get it. But I do also wanna point out that it's not the healthiest way to learn to work and it's also not going to be healthy for you, like in your actual work where it isn't, you know, just like a project at a time.It's like you have to learn to be more steady. . Um, so my last plug for that is to tell, and I tell my, my, the, my patients this all the time. I'm like, you have to find your natural dopamine sources. And instead of waiting, just waiting around for the dopamine to strike, you have to learn to activate your own dopamine, right?And so that can be anything from does your brain naturally respond with a little dopamine as soon as you turn on music. is it right after you've worked out and taken a great shower and then you sit down and you immediately start working, learn where you just took a few sips of dopamine and use that strategically to get yourself activated instead of just waiting around for the dopamine to be like, I'm here.This, this task is on fire. You should do this now. You know? It's like find your own dopamine, create it. and then create, um, these little strategies that help you to basically to get started on tasks that you really don't feel like starting on. Um, so I think the, the, the learning how to manage, you know, again, we're, we're talking about driving, maybe the dopamine is like the gas.It's like how do you gas up, um, , you know, uh, you can't just wait to find the nearest, you know, uh, gas pump and hope it has, like, you just need to learn how to gas up your own car.I, I think that could probably be true for a lot of different things. You know, we always talk about like motivation is a little overrated. I'm sure dopamine hits or it can be a little overrated from that perspective, but I can also imagine. That some like it's reinforcing, yes, and it can work, but when it doesn't work, there is no safety netYou know, there's nothing to kind of catch you. And the other thing I also noticed with college students, and then sometimes this'll help too, is I'm like you when you get those dopamine hits, now that adrenaline and cortisol that actually can kind of get your immune system and buffer against other things coming up.But guess what happens the minute you're done is that suddenly you get all the kind of sickness in the germs that your body is fighting off. and then it's time to party and you can't, cuz you've got pneumonia or you can't cuz you'resick. can't even, you can't even enjoy the fruits of your labor , Yeah, yeah, know what I want you to be able to do? Once you've finished that paper, I want you to be able to go and socialize. I want you to go to the party if that's what you wanna go to. If, or, you know, if you and your friends are gonna do something really fun, but now all of a sudden, if you've just basically fried your brain and your body is fatigued, and in fact you've, you know, impacted your immune functioning and you're now sick and you're not feeling so hot, and then you don't go to those things or don't get to enjoy them.you're basically just creating, you know, less opportunity to really be reinforced for all of your efforts. Right? and so that can be, that can be really tough. Um, but Sarah, you, you also mentioned that the safety net isn't there, and so I think for. My young people with adhd. I think the other thing I think is so important for them to, to realize is that you have to figure out how to be, you know, create your best product.Because unfortunately, the, the experience that they often report is that they put in a lot of effort. for very little payout and that the outcome never seems to match their level of effort. And so one of the things I point out is, well, if you stay up all night and you worked what you believed to be so hard on on a paper or studying for an exam, and then you don't get such a great grade, you're gonna assume that it's because you weren't able to do it.When in fact you put in what felt like a lot of effort, but it wasn't strategic. effective effort. And so you're gonna keep getting this negative feedback loop where you're putting in all this effort and you're not getting the outcome that you're looking for, and I'm trying to help you understand that it's because of the way you started the task.If you just backed up a little and really started to learn how to drive the car. Effectively this beautiful Maserati that you've got this very fast, well built car. If you just learn how to drive it and use its brakes effectively, then you are gonna be able to do so much more than if you basically, you know, get in it floor, the gas pedal, and usually crash.I can really riff on this metaphor forOh my gosh.Ohyeah. And by the way, in my mind I was like, what about like, go ahead.Iahead,No, I'm like, I'm gonna be using this, uh, Thursday at four 15. I already know who I'm gonna be talking about. Thisperfect. And I'm also thinking, I'm like, for me it's more of a, like a Bronco convertible, Maserati fine, you know? But everyone can have a different kind ofYes. Whatever your, you know, whatever your, your model of like amazing car is. Um, you know, and actually, uh, earlier when we were talking about sort of this creating structure and the, the edges of the day, I sometimes tell kids, you know, kids especially like, well first we have, we need a roadmap. Right. You can't go off-roading because when you go off-roading, you end up, you know, in a ditch somewhere.So we need guardrails and we need to be on the street that is paved and we need to plug the directions into our navigation system. Okay. That's a good routine. You can just like follow the directions instead of always having to. Turn all over the place making all of these wrong turns, and you end up in the wrong location.Um, so the, the car and the, and the, and the, the riffing on that metaphor, it's, it's not new, it's not unique to me. I think I just, uh, I push it, I push it a little far with my metaphors.Well, I do too. And I think once you find a good one, you know,works. it's really Thank you so much for coming on. This has been wonderful.  It really has been so fun to catch up withsame. And so nice to see you. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Really, it's been a pleasure.miss you around the water cooler. Hopefully we'll see each otherin person another water cooler eventually