Latest / In These Times with Rabbi Ammi Hirsch / Zibby Owens

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Zibby Owens · In These Times with Rabbi Ammi Hirsch

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I am Rabbi Ammi Hirsch of the Stephen Wise Free Synagogue in New York.
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And you're listening to, in these
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times,
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many Jews have struggled to find the right words to explain what it means
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to be Jewish at a time of rising antisemitism and renewed questions
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about identity and belonging.
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My guest today created a book that does exactly that.
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Zibby Owens is the editor of the powerful anthology on being Jewish now,
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which gathers 75 writers, thinkers, and cultural voices reflecting on
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what Jewish identity feels like.
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The result is something rare.
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A chorus of Jewish voices wrestling honestly
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with these questions.
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Zibby founder and CEO of Zibby Media and host of the
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Beloved podcast totally booked has built one of the country's
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most vibrant literary communities.
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From publishing to podcasting to her own bookshop
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here in New York City.
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Zibby is also a mother of
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four with two headed to college.
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And yes, like all Jewish
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mothers, she worries.
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Zibby Owens, welcome to in
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these Times.
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Thank you.
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Thank you for having me, rabbi.
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I really appreciate it.
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I told you just, uh, off camera, uh, you're one of my heroes.
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Uh oh.
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Really so impressed with your work generally and also recently, uh, with
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your focus on the Jewish community.
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Thank you so much.
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Before we get to the Jewish community, I just want to talk to you about
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your love of books and books in general and what the role of books
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is anymore in modern society.
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Just tell us, uh, you yourself are an author.
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Uh, you're a publisher.
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What is it about books that attract you?
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I have just always loved reading.
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I love losing myself in stories.
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I love feeling deeply.
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I'm a super sensitive person and so if I see, you know, an ad on TV that
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is really emotional, I'll be crying.
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PS there was a, a really emotional Disney cruise line ad during the Academy Awards.
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I dunno if you saw it.
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I was like, bawling.
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Anyway, books to me do that in spades because you are inhabiting
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the lives of the characters and, and the, the story feels so real.
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I feel like it's happening to me.
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And so I just find that feeling second to none, that immersive
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emotional connection to others.
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Putting myself in other people's shoes.
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And it's one of the only things where I stop worrying about everything
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else and everything else kind of stops, and I can just focus on that.
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Do you think, uh, modern technology and AI has impacted in
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any way on writers and readers?
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I think some authors have talked about using AI for the research help.
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It gives them, not for the writing, but when they're doing historical novels
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or um, they wanna know, okay, I am, I'm setting this story in, I don't
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know, Georgia, what are they eating on a, what do people eat on Saturdays?
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And I dunno.
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So I think people are using it as a tool I think at this point.
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The writing is still not as good as authors, but I will
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say I did at one point try it.
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People were like, try to see what AI will do.
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If, if, if it says like, write in the style of Zvi Owens.
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And I was like, Ooh, okay.
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How would they even know?
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But let me give it a shot.
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And so I did.
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And I have to say like, I'm like, can my brain really be reduced to whatever
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algorithm they just use to recreate?
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My voice.
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It wasn't perfect, but like, wasn't so far off.
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I mean, I have to say like I think Chap GBT sometimes has good ideas,
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if you can even say it like that.
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So, um, I wouldn't be surprised if people are using it more for
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plot points, organization help.
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How should I organize this?
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How, how should I structure it so maybe I can just make good writing better.
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But of course there's the fear that it could destroy writing altogether and
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nobody will ever write a book again.
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So somewhere in the middle of that, what do you think?
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I actually am worried.
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I, I think, uh, writing is becoming a, uh, lost skill and a lost art because
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by definition writing requires a lot of focus and a lot of concentration.
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And I worry about, in part, I, I see it myself too when, uh, you know, I,
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I have some time and I wanna scroll to see what I'm missing and it.
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It captures you and I, and I fight against it.
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You know, I'm not one of the new generation that grew up with this
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stuff as if it's an appendage.
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Um, so I, I, I actually worry about, about the ability.
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To produce original thinking, which requires a lot of thought, a lot of
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concentration, and the thing I worry about with respect to AI is there
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is actually nothing original on ai.
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It's the compilation of everybody else's ideas.
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I have to like, not freak out or it will keep me up at night.
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I,
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I have to try to see the positive.
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What brought you into publishing, by the way?
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I mean, we have a lot of publishers out there.
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Why did you think you need to step into the publishing arena?
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I dunno what I was thinking.
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Um, I had been interviewing a lot of authors for my podcast, which used to
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be called Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books and is now called Totally Booked.
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I had interviewed hundreds and hundreds of authors at this point, thousands,
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and I kept hearing some of the same things over and over again about
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their publishing experience, not what they had hoped it would be, and.
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I was also publishing their essays in anthologies and in, um, you know,
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during COVID I would like publish essays for everybody to read on my website.
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And I love working directly with authors and helping, you know,
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propel their work into the world.
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And it's almost like.
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The thrill of the pre-book because, um, you know, I love recommending books once
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fully formed, but if I could like get them even earlier when they're like just
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coming out of the author's mind, I find that really interesting and I wanted
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to see if there was anything I could do to make the author experience a little
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bit better, a little more hands-on, a little, um, more of a, you know.
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Boutique experience and, um, get the books out that I was so busy recommending,
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could I recommend them even earlier?
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And also, I was an aspiring author at the time.
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Now I am an author.
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And the idea that you could get to the end of the, of the, you could get to the
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finish line of getting your book out into the world and then have like a precipitous
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drop that just like broke my heart.
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So I thought, well, I mean, I'm not gonna change the world here,
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but could I change the lives of.
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A dozen authors a year, like, could I try?
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Um, and I, so I thought about it.
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I planned it for years and got a great team together and, um, it's been about
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five years now and we've published a bunch of books and it's been really interesting.
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I've learned so much about the book, world Authors, the business.
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I do have a business degree, like I am interested in starting up things
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and running things, even though it drives me crazy most of the time.
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So I, I, I wanna bring, uh, you, us to the Jewish issue.
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I'm, I have your book in front of me here on being Jewish now, which you published.
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I did.
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And you felt an urgency to do it quickly after October 7th.
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Just tell me about, about the impact of October 7th, because it
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obviously propelled a whole new dimension to your life that I wanna,
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I wanna talk to you about, but.
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Do you remember where you were on October 7th and what you were
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thinking, what your reactions were?
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I was traveling, uh, for a book event with my husband.
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We were at some place, like some random hotel somewhere,
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um, in a big conference center.
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And I remember walking out of the bathroom and he was just standing there
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looking at his phone and he is like, honey, there's been a huge attack.
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In Israel, and I was like, well, there's always something going on in Israel.
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And he's like, no, no, no, this is different.
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And we both stood and looked at the phone and I just gasped and I, I
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couldn't believe what I was seeing.
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And my first thought was that I was so worried, 'cause my dad was
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going to Israel that week and I wanted to know if he was there.
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Turns out he was scheduled to fly out two days later, so he wasn't there.
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But that was my first thing, was to call him, make sure he was okay.
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And then, oh my gosh, I just.
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It was just, there are no words.
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It was unspeakably awful.
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And of course, the horrors that came next.
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Were not only what happened as it unfolded, and we learned more and
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more about the atrocities and the just despicable horrificness of the
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whole thing, but, but the reaction of course, here and the rest of the
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world to it was also devastating.
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So I think it was this one, two punch of like, wait, I've been
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trained my whole life, like.
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I take instruction very well.
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Like I went to Hebrew school, I studied the Holocaust.
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I was also kind of obsessed with it, and I've watched like every
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movie and um, read a million books.
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I've been ready for the never again.
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Like I've been ready watching the signs, like 1930s Germany.
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I've been like primed and ready to identify when this time happened and
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I was like, okay, it's happening.
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Now's my time to speak out.
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This is what every Seder has been about is like, you know, like we have to be aware
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and we, and um, and it was happening in not only that, but like, nobody cared.
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Not only did nobody care, it was like people.
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Uh, were condemning us for caring and making us the bad guys.
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And, and so everything just kind of flipped upside down.
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I couldn't believe it.
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I was really afraid that we would be going down similar paths that we've been
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down before and I was just, you know, I don't like it when things are unfair.
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I don't like it when any group is really persecuted, particularly mine.
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Um, and I've never.
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Really been afraid of speaking out, certainly not for the last, like 10 years.
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I said what I thought right away and I supported Israel, blah, blah, blah.
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Um, then I started writing on my substack about it.
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And just as more and more betrayals happened, as more antisemitism
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happened, as more unthinkable things in the literary space began to happen.
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Authors who are friends of mine.
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Turning against Jews like right and left bookstores saying they wouldn't
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carry my books anymore or the books I published because of my support of Israel.
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Like just things over and over, getting on author blacklists, losing
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all these followers, all of this stuff kept happening all year.
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Um, but at the same time, I was making new Jewish friends all over the world, right?
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People who were emailing, thanking me, who I was reaching out to, who I was
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taking inspiration from, and after.
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You know, by the following June, I was just so frustrated.
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You know, I feel like the shock and grief was sort of wearing off and I
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was getting more into the action mode.
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And after an attack in the north of Israel, um, I don't know if you
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remember, there was like an attack with the boys on the soccer field.
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And I just sat there that
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I was there by the way.
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I, I visited,
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were you,
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it was a Drew's village in the north of Israel.
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Yes.
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And I wanted to pay a condolence call.
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Oh.
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I went there with a group of, uh, colleagues, rabbis.
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Oh my gosh.
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Uh,
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so I know, and I spoke with, uh, the parents.
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You know, there was one father there whose daughter was killed,
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and he, he went over there.
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He saw her.
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He knew immediately that she was killed, but there were other kids
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around there who were wounded and he was a medical doctor or um, uh, some
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kind of, uh, medical professional.
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And so he told us this story about how he attended to all of
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the other kids that he could.
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Then he went and began to mourn for his daughter.
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It was really a, oh my
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gosh,
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unbelievably moving place, and we were right there on the soccer field.
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Well, that attack.
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Effectively changed my life.
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It was the final straw in a way.
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And I realized that no matter what I did as like one random person
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would ever really make a difference.
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And I thought maybe if I gathered with all these other authors who I had
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co-founded artists against antisemitism with and had been in a group chat
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with all year, maybe together we could make a difference by speaking out.
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I also, you know, one premise of the book is just how could people hate
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us if they really got to know us?
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Like.
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We're just like, we're really awesome and we're,
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I think about that all the time too, right?
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Like,
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what the time?
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What do they want?
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Sometimes, you know, I direct it to God.
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God, what do they want from your people?
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Yeah.
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That's really how the book came to be.
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I just had this realization.
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I thought, what if I team up with all my author friends and do an anthology?
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I had already edited too.
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I knew how to do it.
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By this point.
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I had my own publishing company.
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I could publish it and I would donate the profits to artists against antisemitism,
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which I did and continue to do, and
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artists against antisemitism.
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Is that your.
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Your organization?
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Or was that
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founded by some?
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Well, I was one of the founding authors of it.
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I'm no longer, you know, actively involved, although always a supporter.
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Um,
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when was that founded?
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Uh, right after October 7th.
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Yeah.
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So it was as a result of October 7th.
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Oh, yes.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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And this book is a result of October 7th too.
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Yes.
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You wanted to publish dozens of short Yes.
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Essays.
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From people representing a broad spectrum of mostly the Jewish community
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or is this entirely the Jewish
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community?
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It's entirely the Jewish community.
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One person converted.
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Some people consider themselves Jewish.
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Um, there are many Holocaust.
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Descendants, four rabbis.
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Wish I'd known you, then I
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would've accepted immediately.
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Oh.
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Because as I said, you're one of my heroes.
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Oh, thank you.
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But I tried to get a, a, a good cross section.
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There's some Israelis, uh, Australians, uh, a lot of Americans,
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Orthodox reform, conservative, uh, it really ran the spectrum.
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There's a black Jewish man.
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There's, you know, I tried to get.
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A lot of opinions and, and
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what were you, what were you looking for?
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What was the urgency and did you get outta the book what you wanted?
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I love that question.
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Yes, I did.
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I got outta the book.
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What I wanted, the urgency was I felt compelled to share
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what we were going through.
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'cause I found it so insane that all of this stuff was
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happening to us in modern day.
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Right under the noses of so many people who might not be haters, but
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could be allies and weren't, and all of this was going on, and I wanted
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not only to let them know, but also to share with all the Jewish people I've
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been meeting all over the place and say like, you're not alone because.
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At, at the time I called it sort of that we were all sitting
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Shiva on our phones, right?
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We're just like individually mourning.
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And in the beginning I feel people were a little afraid to gather and it was
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just, we didn't know what was happening.
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And the, the main comfort eventually that I think everybody took was in
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gathering in some way and relating to each other, sharing stories, connecting.
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And I wanted to use the book as a means of connection.
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To get us through this terrible time as if it was, I mean, it, it
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is a grief based experience really.
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But I also, part of my assignment to everybody was either writing about what
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it means and how it feels to be Jewish now after October 7th, or Jewish joy, and
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I said to everybody, no politics allowed.
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I did not want this to be about politics at all because, you know,
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75 people, I can't even imagine.
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You know, everybody has lots of views.
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What I wanted was to strip away all the extra stuff and get down to who
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we are as humans and our, our feelings and our fears and, and relate that way.
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And I didn't feel I was getting enough of that anywhere.
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I wasn't reading enough of that.
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So I organized the book and edited it and then launched a substack at
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the same time where we still publish.
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I find it hard when I hear a story about somebody.
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Not to empathize, and I was hoping other people would feel the same way.
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You know, that's really very profound.
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Uh, I was in Israel a couple of months ago and uh, I met a, um, one of the
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country's foremost experts on trauma.
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Mm.
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And you know, half the country is traumatized in one way or the other.
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I'm sure
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some from the immediate.
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Circle of people who were victimized or families of, uh, soldiers who were
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killed in, in the war, and then so many millions of other people who
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were, who just completely traumatized by the ongoing war that's now two
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and a half years old, including as we speak these, these, uh, very hours.
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He said something really profound that I kind of knew, but I never actually.
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You know, put it all together.
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He said, to recover from trauma, you need that trauma recognized by other people.
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And I think that was one of the most painful things after October
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7th, is all these alliances we had.
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And I've been working with, you know, interfaith groups and progressive, uh, and
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liberal, uh, groups for most of my career.
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And this sense of betrayal, which fed the unrecognized mourning on our
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part and unrecognized trauma, I think penetrated so deeply in people that it
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caused some people, you know, like some people, as a result of October 7th, they.
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Kind of said, I want nothing to do with any of this anymore.
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But I've met so many other people who were sort of disengaged or distanced
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from Judaism, and this tended to fortify them for the reasons that
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you mentioned that this trauma was unrecognized except by our own.
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Everybody else seemed to have betrayed us, and it's not literally everybody else, but
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so many people when we needed the most.
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Were either silent or they were actively opposed on the
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most basic humanitarian level.
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They didn't believe or they didn't wanna believe that uh, Israeli women
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were sexually assaulted when they were the very ones who said women should
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be assumed to be telling the truth.
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It was really quite shocking.
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Yes.
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You mentioned in the book world that I think you were surprised or maybe
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even shocked by, uh, the reaction.
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Just tell us more about that.
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Exactly what you're saying.
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I felt the same thing and throughout the literary world.
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It went right to, she's a Zionist, she's a Zionist racist, like
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she's, you know, pointing fingers and in such a brazen way, I mean.
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Agents will now put like no Zionist clients or something.
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I'm like,
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really?
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How are you allowed to do that?
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Isn't that against the
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real agents or, or crazy, marginal people.
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I mean, not like the biggest, but on agency websites, just like go through some
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literary agencies and some authors will, some agents will say that it's insane.
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Well, what's their complaint against you?
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You say you're, oh, you're a ionist.
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What?
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What?
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Because you identified with people who were brutalized.
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What?
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What was their complaint about you?
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I took a particularly public stand early on when I ended up pulling my
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sponsorship from the National Book Foundation, national Book Awards
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because, um, I had heard there was a collective action being planned for
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that ceremony, a pro-Palestinian action.
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And when I asked the organization about it, they said that they did
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know that something was being planned.
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They weren't sure what.
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No matter what, they weren't gonna do anything about it, even if it was
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vehemently anti-Jewish, anti-Israeli.
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And so I said I couldn't be part of it, and I pulled my sponsorship and
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it got leaked to the press and twisted around, of course, that like I didn't
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believe in a ceasefire or whatever.
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I was like, I didn't even talk about a ceasefire and like, what is going on?
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And anyway, it became international news at the time.
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This is November after the attacks of how the conflict was affecting
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the United States literary world.
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And I became sort of persona non grata, if you will, for all the people who.
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Were talking about us as genocidal, maniacs or whatever.
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Anyway, um, I became sort of a, a temporary symbol of that and uh, I think
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that's why people tried to, I don't know, cancel me or whatever you wanna say.
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Do you regret that is looking back, is there
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Not at all.
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I think honestly, anybody, well, I mean, maybe not, but it seems so
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clear what the right thing to do was.
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I didn't hesitate.
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Really, I mean, I talked to my business partner, but I was like,
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we have to pull out of this.
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Like, there's just no, you know, I didn't wanna bring my team into an event
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that who knows what would've happened.
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I mean, it turned out nothing really happened.
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But, um, I couldn't take that risk, especially during this time.
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Like, why walk into a hostile environment and not only just walk in,
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but I'm gonna sponsor something that.
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Might produce something like it's one thing to go, it's
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another to like subsidize it.
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I'm not gonna support that.
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So that's really, I think, how I got looped into all the chaos early on.
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Um, but again, the support I received from the Jewish community
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was outstanding and I have felt.
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Deep conviction and unwavering certitude about everything I've been
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doing in this arena from day one since October 7th really happened.
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Um, since the first post when people started, you know, I
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started having to block everybody.
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I never knew I had to defend the Jewish people personally.
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Uh.
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Until I did, and then it became very, very clear.
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I don't know if you know Rabbi Raphael Shore.
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I had coffee with him early on when I was so frustrated that like nothing I
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did or said would ever make a difference.
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Like I wasn't able to change anybody's mind at all about
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antisemitism and anything.
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And he kind of laughed at me.
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He is like, yeah, this has been going on thousands of years.
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Like, and he's like, but your job is not to.
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Eliminated antisemitism.
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Your job is to unite the Jewish people.
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And so I took that very seriously and I think about that all the time.
22:32
It was a slight redirection of my efforts and I'm like, how do I do that?
22:37
How can I do that?
22:38
And so I just continue to do events and meet people and it's been this amazing
22:45
experience with all of our contributors going out and trying to tell our stories
22:50
and, and unite instead of, you know.
22:54
Condemn or whatever so many other people are doing,
22:57
there's something empowering about defending our people.
23:00
Right.
23:01
It adds a dimension to their life.
23:04
That's an interesting way to say that.
23:05
Especially if you know in particular, I mean, you can't really do it unless
23:09
Judaism is important to you, but it reminds us, number one, it connects
23:15
us to the very source of Jewish life going back thousands of years.
23:21
It connects us to something bigger than ourselves that we're fighting for a cause
23:26
that we believe is just and righteous.
23:29
And what we often find, I wonder if, if you found this, that while
23:35
we lose some friends and supporters and are disappointed by some people,
23:40
uh, we gain a lot on the other side.
23:43
Mm-hmm.
23:43
When we learn a lot and we gain a lot of friends.
23:47
Allies on the other side who thirst and welcome for, you
23:52
know, people of principle.
23:55
Yes.
23:56
But I, I don't wanna suggest that speaking out and trying to defend
24:02
the Jewish people or create a sense of community or any of the things,
24:04
or the book or whatever is so that.
24:08
I'm not like using this cause to add a dimension of meaning into my life.
24:12
My life had plenty of meaning already.
24:14
I was very busy.
24:15
I had a lot, I felt very strongly in what I was doing to help authors, and
24:20
that gave me a lot of meaning in my life.
24:21
So I wasn't like searching about for a platform and, and glommed onto this.
24:26
And I do think there are some new, you know, Jew flus, for lack of
24:31
a better word, who, um, you know, sometimes miss the plot of it all.
24:36
Um.
24:37
In, in the posting of, of the things around it and not the thing itself.
24:41
But I will say, anytime you find something that you are passionate about
24:46
and that means something to you and you feel you can make a difference, yes.
24:50
That is an empowering feeling, even if the difference is tiny.
24:55
Could you tell us more about, about the reaction, uh, from people?
25:00
Did, did people, for example, refuse to come on your podcast?
25:03
Did Oh,
25:04
yeah.
25:04
Mm-hmm.
25:05
Yeah,
25:05
they did.
25:06
Oh yeah.
25:06
People who were already booked or, or
25:09
people who were already booked, canceled in the beginning.
25:12
Now a lot of people who would otherwise come on or have come on
25:15
in the past have not come back on.
25:18
It's fine.
25:19
I mean, I have no trouble getting guests.
25:20
I, I get amazing guests and, um, and all of that.
25:24
But yes, I mean, one person I picked for a book club pick, and they said.
25:31
No, like we, we, we do not want to be your book club.
25:34
Pick like, okay, fine.
25:36
And the reason of that for that is what?
25:38
That you support Israel.
25:40
Well, it just seems so obvious because then you go on their
25:42
Instagram, which I should have done, to be honest, originally.
25:45
And they're posting all sorts of either anti-Israel stuff
25:49
or sometimes they're Jewish.
25:51
But just feel very, very differently from me, um, about.
25:56
Real and whatever.
25:57
I mean, it's, it's just so crazy.
25:59
I mean, the whole thing is, is a little bit nuts.
26:02
The world is a little bit upside down.
26:10
Is it a real thing that, uh, Jews are finding it harder to
26:14
publish books and sell books, and then we've heard stories about.
26:19
Uh, there were book tours and they would do a reading and the bookstore
26:25
would say, listen, we can't commit or guarantee your safety is, are
26:30
those, are those real stories?
26:32
There are so many stories.
26:34
Yes.
26:34
It is not being, not only is it not being blown outta proportion, I don't
26:37
think it even gets enough attention.
26:39
Um, and a lot of authors aren't even reporting these widely.
26:44
Um, they don't.
26:45
Necessarily need anymore a attention for negative stuff.
26:49
People won't be on panels with them.
26:51
That happened to very publicly at a, at a book festival that they didn't
26:55
wanna share a stage with a Zionist.
26:57
And so, you know, they canceled the panel.
27:00
All sorts of authors signed petitions about not wanting to work with
27:05
Israeli publishers, uh, or have their books translated into Hebrew.
27:09
Um, someone just told me yesterday how, for their
27:13
translation rights for their book.
27:16
The, the standard form says we acknowledge that many authors do
27:19
not wanna be associated with Israel, but nonetheless, here is the offer.
27:23
And I just got an email from an agent who was dealing in foreign
27:28
rights, like the foreign rights for some of the books, and sent a mass
27:32
email about the London Book Fair.
27:35
And at the bottom of the email she was like, sorry, I, you know,
27:38
I couldn't make it given the events of the Middle East, but.
27:41
Rest assured all eyes on Gaza and hoping da da and just like a whole thing.
27:45
I was like, what?
27:47
Like you're sending us potential fiction submissions.
27:50
Do you know like this?
27:51
What does this have to do?
27:52
Why are you even mentioning this?
27:54
Um, so.
27:56
I think it's, I think it's hard.
27:58
Um, it's not impossible.
27:59
A lot of great Jewish writers have had great books come out and I, I
28:03
really think we need more of that.
28:04
Not just books that pitch us as victims, but as main characters with main character
28:10
energy and who happened to be Jewish.
28:12
I mean, I wrote like a fun novel where the main character was Jewish.
28:15
This is before October 7th, because of course she was
28:18
like, that's me, I'm Jewish.
28:19
And her kid was studying for a bar mitzvah and the Bar mitzvah.
28:23
Tutor played a huge role.
28:25
His dog was named Dano.
28:26
Like I just, I thought it was funny.
28:29
Like this is just, you know,
28:31
that's funny.
28:32
So I think we just need it where it's not like this is a novel about
28:38
Hanukkah or this is a novel about historical novel about the Holocaust.
28:42
Just like write really great stuff like, but just make
28:44
Jewish stuff be a part of it.
28:47
It's hostility and animosity towards, uh, everything Jewish and Jewish authors.
28:53
It didn't basically exist Preoc October 7th, right?
28:57
It, it's a whole Octo post-OC October 7th phenomenon.
29:03
It must have, but it was hidden.
29:07
It, it couldn't have just appeared, but.
29:12
It wasn't socially acceptable, I guess, to talk about.
29:16
Um, I think it's ramped up if it was a two before and now it's a 100,
29:20
you know, it's a big difference.
29:21
But I think it was there before.
29:24
I felt like all these authors, I helped out so much for so long.
29:28
I would hear that they were, you know, just disparaging me behind my
29:32
back as being a Zionist and whatever.
29:34
And I'm like, really?
29:35
You know, so and so.
29:37
What if I am?
29:38
Yeah.
29:38
Israel deserves.
29:40
To exist.
29:41
You know, it must have been there.
29:44
Obviously antisemitism has roots from thousands of years ago.
29:47
This is not a new thing.
29:49
You know, I wrote an essay in 2018 about the Pittsburgh synagogue bomb.
29:53
I mean, I wrote an essay in two, in 2002 about everything
29:58
going on in the Middle East.
29:59
Like I, this is not new, it's not news, but it has just.
30:04
Escalated as you all, as everybody knows so much.
30:06
Really?
30:06
Yeah.
30:07
I totally agree with that, by the way.
30:09
It's just, it didn't for it to erupt in this way on sundown, on October 7th and
30:16
intensify over the last two and a half years, it didn't come outta nowhere.
30:19
It was, it was there,
30:21
yes.
30:21
But it was suppressed.
30:23
Yes.
30:23
Can I add, you're a deep thinker.
30:25
I, I've, and I've, I've thought about this a lot and I haven't
30:29
really found satisfactory answers.
30:33
Why did the murder of 1200 Jews the worst mass massacre since the
30:42
Holocaust and the taking of 250 hostages old people to nine months old?
30:48
And this reaction against the Jews and against Israel immediately
30:53
erupted, even before Israel responded.
30:56
It was like Israel was still for the first three days, fighting off
30:59
terrorists in its own territory.
31:00
Mm-hmm.
31:02
Have you asked yourself, what was it about October 7th that lifted the lid?
31:08
Well, it was a very calculated planned attack on the part of, you
31:15
know, radical Islamic jihadists that had been planned for a long time.
31:20
My husband and I were, uh, associate producers on the film October eight,
31:23
which if you haven't seen you, you have to see 'cause it was all about how this.
31:29
Horrific influence and planning was taking advantage of sort
31:34
of marginalized communities to start slowly putting out imagery.
31:39
It was a gradual brainwashing, which was deliberate, and it was intentional.
31:45
Like it wasn't just a coincidence that it happened on October 8th.
31:48
It was a, it was somebody else's plan.
31:51
And I feel unfortunately that we keep falling into this.
31:57
I have to think, you know, with recent elections and everything like
32:01
this, these things don't just happen.
32:03
They are planned.
32:05
And then when the execution so swiftly happens, we're all left reeling
32:09
being like, wait, what happened?
32:10
Who was just like, what is going on?
32:13
There are a lot of people planning who want to destroy.
32:21
Us destroy Americans, destroy the Jewish people, and um, they were ready to go.
32:26
They had it all ready.
32:27
It was like when you have a book and you send a, a press release ad
32:30
and you've got all your emails in your inbox ready to send, you know,
32:33
like, boom, okay, this happened.
32:35
Click send.
32:36
It was just like that.
32:37
The attack happened.
32:38
Boom.
32:38
It was all ready to go.
32:39
Emails drafted, boom.
32:41
Let's destroy the world.
32:42
You mentioned you have, uh, two kids who are going off to college this year.
32:47
First of all are, are you worried about the atmosphere on
32:50
universities and where do you think that came from, that reaction?
32:55
They weren't, they didn't start as Kamas supporters.
32:59
I don't think.
33:00
They, some was something about the college atmosphere that brought
33:03
all of them together in this insane attack against Jews and Israelis.
33:11
You know, I had a luncheon for Noah TPI years ago, probably in 2001, and
33:16
at the luncheon she kept telling all of us like, you have to pay attention to
33:19
the BDS movement on college campuses.
33:21
That the boycott, divestiture, all of that, like there was a concerted
33:28
infiltration, honestly of, of all college campuses with these.
33:32
Groups and they were spreading right before our eyes, but
33:36
none of us cared enough.
33:37
And even after this lunch, we were all like, oh yeah, that's terrible.
33:39
We should pay attention to that.
33:40
And then we forgot.
33:41
'cause you move along with your life.
33:42
So, um, uh, again, this is years in the making.
33:46
This isn't just that people started having an issue while they were on campus.
33:51
This was.
33:53
The groundwork was set years ahead of time and had been perpetuated.
33:57
Um, not to mention the fact that it's been in the schools.
34:01
And so some people by the time they get up to college, have had this in
34:04
their, in their school curriculums by teachers without oversight who have been
34:09
like slowly getting this into schools.
34:10
It's all really terrifying to be honest.
34:12
I wanted to ask you about that.
34:14
I mean, your, your kids went through a high school now and some
34:17
of them are, uh, one, you said you had a child in middle school.
34:20
I think you
34:21
I have two.
34:21
Two middle schoolers and two high.
34:22
Two seniors
34:23
and two high.
34:23
So they've gone through, uh, you know, New York City public, uh,
34:27
public or private schools, and.
34:30
Are you seeing disturbing things or did you see disturbing things
34:33
in the curriculum or in the general tolerance for hostility towards Jews?
34:40
I feel quite lucky with the three schools that my four kids are at.
34:43
Um, there have been incidents where I've reached out to multiple headmasters about
34:50
specific things, and I'm not afraid to reach out nicely, you know, and just say
34:53
like, Hey, did you know this happened?
34:54
Or whatever.
34:55
Um, but for the most part.
35:01
I have felt quite lucky with our schools, um, and have really good
35:06
open communication with, with them.
35:08
Um, so, but I know that's not the case for a lot of other schools and some
35:14
public schools, and I just had a friend.
35:16
Like, pick my brain for like an hour about which schools are really the
35:21
best in New York for Jews now, and should, should we pick Jewish Day
35:24
School or go to a private school?
35:26
And there's no right answer anymore.
35:28
There's, I mean, not that there ever was, but um, so am I worried
35:32
about my kids gonna college?
35:33
Like I'm worried about my kids all day, every day anyway.
35:37
I'm a Jewish mother.
35:38
I mean, I always worry.
35:39
Um, I feel they are empowered to.
35:44
Represent who we are.
35:45
They're they're warriors.
35:47
They care.
35:48
And I actually think that's been one plus side, if you will, of this whole
35:53
time, is they are so into being Jewish and defending the religion, and they
35:58
know how important it's to me and, um, you know, and, and our whole family.
36:04
I mean, it's so they've really picked up the mantle.
36:07
Um, I'm not worried they'll be attacked.
36:11
I know that I'm worried more that.
36:13
They'll have to walk past protests and, you know, all that
36:18
type of uncomfortable stuff.
36:20
But I'm hopeful at least, and this was, you know, a question we asked
36:24
when we were looking at colleges about the tenor on, on campus and all that.
36:30
So I'm, I'm hopeful though.
36:31
I mean, I'm always hopeful they'll be okay.
36:34
Uh, Zibby you, you graduated
36:36
from Harvard.
36:37
Right.
36:37
Did you, did you see the little, the, the recent survey, uh, about Jewish kids at
36:42
Harvard and it just came out Actually,
36:43
I went to Yale undergrad and I went to Harvard Business School.
36:46
So, no, I didn't actually see a, a survey recently.
36:48
So there were the, the recent numbers are that 7% of, uh, the Harvard
36:53
student body is, uh, Jewish and that's the lowest number in generations.
36:59
And, uh, there are lots of factors.
37:02
Since you've just gone through this process about kids selecting universities,
37:07
do you think that Jewish kids
37:11
now are more sensitive to selecting a university that has at least
37:16
a reputation of being more sympathetic to Jewish students?
37:20
Yes, I do.
37:22
I mean, I was just at the A DL conference.
37:23
The A DL has a report card for all universities, and I know that was
37:27
important to us as we were touring.
37:29
You know, what grade did this school get versus others?
37:32
Um, I don't know.
37:34
What are you seeing, rabbi?
37:35
What do you think?
37:36
I saw those numbers and you know, I'm constantly thinking about how.
37:41
There's been sort of a honeymoon from history since the end of World
37:44
War II for the Jewish community.
37:45
That seems to be ending at this point.
37:48
Mm-hmm.
37:48
And when I, when I read the latest numbers about Harvard, I of
37:51
course immediately thought about pre-war Harvard and their troubled
37:56
relationship with the Jewish community.
37:59
And I'm, I'm very worried because, you know, these, these cultural
38:05
institutions, the media, the legal.
38:08
Establishment, higher education, the book industry, these are so
38:16
influential in setting the tone
38:18
mm-hmm.
38:19
For society.
38:20
And it is the arena where most American Jews, uh, travel.
38:24
Most American Jews by far consider themselves liberal and have
38:29
supported liberal institutions and, uh, liberal political candidates.
38:34
I worry that something really fundamental is shifting, the earth is shifting
38:42
beneath our feet, but it's so early in the process that I can't, I can't
38:47
foresee how that will impact on our lives, and even more importantly on
38:52
the, on the life of American society.
38:55
Mm-hmm.
38:55
Because what an ironclad law of history.
39:00
Is that what starts with the Jews, never ends with the Jews, and it is
39:05
a barometer of something very rotten
39:08
mm-hmm.
39:08
In society that's getting worse.
39:11
So that's what, that's what I worry about.
39:13
And, um, let me ask you this, how do we fight back against this?
39:16
You, you mentioned earlier that, you know, do people actually change their
39:20
minds and Well they do change their minds because you said there was a.
39:25
Generational campaign to change people's minds about Israel
39:29
and it seems to be working.
39:30
That's true.
39:31
What can we do now at the beginning of this new phase?
39:36
I think one of the challenges is that we are a bit outnumbered and
39:41
for every TikTok account that, that somebody is subsidizing, I
39:45
don't think we are counteracting.
39:49
The negative message is enough.
39:52
If a hundred accounts are being funded on the other side to post anti-Israel,
39:56
things like what are we doing on our side?
39:59
Who are we funding?
40:00
Are we funding enough people?
40:01
Are we fighting back?
40:02
And there just aren't as many of us.
40:04
So I guess the answer that was roundabout way of saying.
40:08
I think we could fight back more on social media, and I know some organizations like
40:12
Unpacked Media is doing things like this.
40:14
I know that, um, the a DL is taking a, a big stance against this and
40:17
working with not only the social media companies, but now even the AI models
40:22
to make sure that these don't happen.
40:24
So I think one thing we can do is support organizations that have taken
40:28
this on as a big fight and help them.
40:31
I think awareness, like I, I think a. Calling it out when you see it.
40:37
I think reporting at the conference, the head of the A DL was like, we
40:41
can't fight when we don't have the data and if you don't report in,
40:46
we don't have the correct data.
40:48
So I think instead of people.
40:51
Suffering in silence or sweeping something under the rug or saying,
40:55
oh, this one instance, like, well, I, where would I even say anything?
40:58
What would I do?
40:59
And whatever.
40:59
I think reporting it and getting it on the record, even if you do
41:03
so anonymously, is really important so that we get the full picture.
41:06
We all know it's bad, but we need the full picture, um, to be
41:10
able to make change based on data getting involved so that we have.
41:16
A strong united community that can be nimble and fight back.
41:21
Like I really want there to be talking points and um, unified messaging and,
41:29
uh, I want everyone to feel equipped to at least have a two minute conversation.
41:36
Someone when they try to shoot down our, the right to exist.
41:39
And that's one of the things artists against Antisemitism does, is, um,
41:43
you know, work with organizations that gives college students the, the
41:46
vocabulary and the tools to speak back.
41:48
I think supporting.
41:50
People who are speaking out or doing cool Jewish things and uplifting them.
41:55
And it doesn't even have to be something Jewish related.
41:58
Like if there's a, a Jewish novelist out there who wrote a fabulous thriller,
42:02
like post about them, follow them, like support people who are doing the things,
42:08
um, that makes society really great.
42:11
And also that show our values, like I think continuing to live.
42:17
According to our Jewish values is so important.
42:20
Like, we're not gonna sink to the level of the, the tactics used against
42:25
us necessarily to, to live purely.
42:28
And, um, I feel like I'm sounding a little didactic here, but, um,
42:32
uh, you know, we have to live with integrity and be who we are as people.
42:38
Here's my final request of you.
42:41
Give us some uplifting sentiment to conclude this, uh, conversation.
42:47
I actually do feel quite hopeful because I have met the most amazing people as
42:51
I've gotten to know the community, and I am just struck time and time again
42:55
by the resilience of the Jewish people.
42:57
I mean, we are so strong and have weathered every attempt to
43:03
get rid of us, and guess what?
43:05
We are just not going anywhere.
43:07
Like it's just not gonna be done.
43:09
So everyone can try and they can try in horrific ways, and that's terrible.
43:15
But as a group, no, we're not going anywhere.
43:21
Owens, thank you for giving us this time.
43:23
You're, uh, an inspiration to so many of us.
43:27
Keep up the great work and, uh, we'll continue to look to you for
43:31
support and uplift and inspiration.
43:34
Thank you very much.
43:35
Thank you very much.
43:37
Appreciate it.
43:45
I'm always
43:46
inspired by people like Zibby, by those whose lives
43:49
are transformed by an acute moral crisis, and unlike so many others,
43:54
refuse to turn away as Zibby told me she didn't
43:57
intend to be.
43:57
Nor does she see herself now as some kind of moral crusader.
44:01
She's a lover of books and ideas.
44:04
She hosts a popular podcast called Totally Booked.
44:08
She believes in stories that can shed light on and elevate the human condition.
44:13
She helps authors bring their manuscripts to print and gives voice to their talents.
44:18
But as so many of us, October 7th changed her, the savage brutality
44:24
perpetrated on thousands of innocent victims and the moral depravity of
44:28
those justifying the victimizers so offended her sense of right and wrong.
44:33
That while it might've been easier to turn away, she couldn't.
44:38
Now, it's one thing for rabbis and Jewish professionals to speak out.
44:41
It's our vocation, it's our job.
44:44
But when people like Zibby stand in the breach
44:47
and put themselves on the front lines of a moral struggle, knowing what
44:52
the cost will be, it is profoundly inspiring and deeply moving.
44:58
I've seen this phenomenon over and over again in the past two and a half years.
45:02
I have met the most exceptional Jewish young people, astonishingly courageous
45:07
students who simply wanted to get a university degree and move on to fruitful
45:12
careers, and who suddenly found themselves inside the boiling cauldron of hostility
45:17
from fellow students and even faculty while administrators, the so-called
45:22
adults in the room fell silent in fear.
45:25
These amazing young people persisted, driven by their sense of moral probity
45:30
and fortified by their Jewish identity.
45:33
It's the classic Jewish story Throughout our history, some have
45:37
distanced ourselves from the Jewish community in the face of hostility.
45:41
Others have found something in their Jewish identity that they didn't realize.
45:45
They had some inexplicable connection to our people, and even a renewed or
45:52
newly discovered perception of God.
45:55
We're now in the Passover season.
45:58
I hope that as we tell and retell the story of our people, it
46:03
bolsters our courage and reinforces our commitments to our people.
46:07
I hope that the challenges and anxieties of our times create a
46:11
fierceness of Jewish identity in you that may not have been there before.
46:17
After all, it's this very will to live Jewishly with
46:19
meaning, purpose, and dignity.
46:22
Previous generations held onto in the face of obstacles much
46:25
greater than ours, that led to our
46:28
being here today.
46:30
As Zibby proves everyone can
46:32
do something, everyone can push back.
46:35
Every act counts, every word makes a difference.
46:40
And even if you think to yourself, how's this one little
46:42
action gonna change anything?
46:45
Remember your goal is not only to repair the world.
46:49
It is also to repair yourself by defending your principles, values,
46:54
self-respect and dignity in what is often a contaminated moral environment.
47:01
You will be stiffening your backbone.
47:04
You will prove to yourself that you can stand up to adversity.
47:09
There are values worth fighting for and sacrificing for, and that it is your
47:14
responsibility to participate in the fight for justice, righteousness, and decency.
47:22
Until next time.
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This is in these times.