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Roast! Coffee Smarter: Coffee Review & Coffee Jobs · Coffee People Podcast

0:14
Good morning and welcome back to the roast West Coast coffee
0:16
podcast. Where I interview the coffee
0:18
Professionals of the West Coast and try to help us get all a
0:22
little bit coffee smarter in the process.
0:25
I do that by asking coffee, experts coffee questions experts
0:30
like Siri simran Khalsa the executive director of coffee at
0:33
the always growing lofty. Coffee company based in
0:36
Encinitas California today on the show.
0:39
Siri and I talked a little bit about coffee reviews and then
0:42
about starting a career in coffee.
0:44
Like how do you get from the beginning to ahead roaster
0:46
position? Even if you aren't looking for a
0:49
career change, in the coffee industry, you'll learn a little
0:52
bit more about what it takes and what series day to day is like,
0:55
which may make you appreciate the cup, you're drinking right
0:58
now. After our chat, I'll go a little
1:00
bit more into the coffee review process and if you had to roast
1:04
westcoast.com, you'll see the scoring guides and best
1:07
practice. Protocols issued by the
1:09
specialty, coffee Association, or SCA for short and then I'll
1:13
introduce you to Katie Hendrix of Aspen Street.
1:16
Coffee aptly named for its location on Aspen Street and
1:19
Fruita Colorado, who I met on my recent drive across the country
1:23
before we get to all that, take a moment to follow at lofty,
1:26
Coffee Co, and at roast, well, Post on Instagram and then share
1:31
this episode. That's slow growth.
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Organic word-of-mouth is why the roast West Coast coffee podcast?
1:38
Will be around for the Long Haul.
1:41
And if you've been listening and enjoying consider a paid
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subscription to roast westcoast.com, you'll help
1:46
support the creation of the show.
1:48
It goes a long way towards keeping the lights on in the
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closet Studio. A recent subscription from Kathy
1:53
Rogers, thank you. Kathy went right into some new
1:56
acoustic panels. Which will hopefully, improve
1:59
the sound quality of the show. Although I'm not sure I can do
2:03
anything about the trains that pass by occasionally.
2:06
This morning, I'm drinking a coffee.
2:08
I picked up from lofty, Coffee Cafe in Carlsbad California.
2:12
And I hope that you have a full month to because it's time to
2:15
get coffee, Smarter on the roast West Coast coffee podcast.
2:37
Siri is back on the show. Welcome to roast West Coast
2:40
against Erie. Thank you for being here, as
2:43
always. It's just it makes my day when I
2:45
know that we get to talk because I never really quite know where
2:48
our conversations going. Hi, I'm so happy to be here too
2:53
and Totally agree. I feel like you always have
2:57
these great insights on like things that I guess like to be,
3:01
or just like normal and they're like, wait, like even like our
3:04
last our last meeting and our last episode, The the crossover
3:08
of Photography and coffee roasting.
3:10
I just think that, that kind of like like amazing Connections.
3:18
I love that those things in life but then also in coffee and
3:21
other things. So if you're listening, what you
3:24
don't know is I ask I call. Siri just to ask her to say nice
3:27
things about me, too, and she usually refuses, but only if
3:30
we're on the records and she will.
3:33
Today, I want to ask you about something that I have mixed
3:41
feelings about which is rating coffees.
3:46
I see a lot of ratings like this is a 92 Point Kazi.
3:50
This is a ninety-five Point Coffey from Coffey review and
3:54
I'm wondering if you can give us some clarification on, what is
3:57
that mean? When there's a rating on the
3:59
coffee and do, does that does that have a lot of weight to it
4:05
or value to it? I'm not trying to take away from
4:09
anyone but Thinking as we live in this world where we're
4:12
constantly reviewing and rating, things Yelp has obviously gone,
4:16
like crazy town, but ratings matter, you know, I think I look
4:21
at ratings and I'm buying something on Amazon or when I'm
4:24
already high or wherever, what does that kind of mean for
4:27
coffee and what kind of value should we associate with?
4:32
So like you said at the top of the episode, you never know
4:35
where this conversations gonna go.
4:37
I'm gonna answer your question but then I'm going to take it
4:40
somewhere else. So and the reason for that is at
4:44
least with my experience as a roaster lofty, we have never
4:51
pursued these types of reviews and ratings.
4:55
For those of you out there who do correct me if I'm wrong,
4:58
because again, I'm speaking now, from not a lot of experience in
5:02
that area. But from my understanding, those
5:06
types of awards and ratings and why I find them a little bit
5:12
problematic is essentially your pain for a good review is my
5:20
understanding is that you you will submit and apply but
5:25
there's Fee. And I'm sure that the people
5:29
reviewing it are, are giving a, they're honest review.
5:34
But, you know, you're submitting a coffee to get a high review,
5:38
so you can brand it and Market it as this coffee reviewed
5:42
coffee and people are will buy it for maybe a higher price
5:45
because of that. So in my understanding it's a
5:49
little bit more of like a marketing tool then potentially
5:55
a A true honest cupping rating and that's where I come in to
6:01
say I'm going to be right because there's you know, I use
6:04
the sca scoring system on a daily basis but it's very right
6:09
to my understanding. It's going to be a bit different
6:11
than how maybe the coffee review or golden Bean or somebody else
6:14
might be using it. So were you going to say
6:17
something? I was only going to say that so
6:20
I know a little bit about reviewing from the beer industry
6:25
and the one thing that I would I would ask about what you just
6:29
said is sometimes coffee is get bad reviews 2 and the value
6:33
true. Yeah, they get published.
6:35
So you kind of send in you. It's there is a risk there that
6:39
you send in a coffee and you pay the fee to get it reviewed, but
6:44
maybe it doesn't get a 92. Maybe it gets a 75 or it gets
6:48
it. Whatever.
6:50
Yeah, I think I don't see those as often because if that happens
6:53
people are generally not promoting that.
6:56
Yeah. But I do think there's some risk
6:58
there, so it might, there might be a little bit of where you're
7:01
sending it and where that review is coming from.
7:04
I think you actually make a really good point and again, my
7:07
lack of experience and knowledge of being in the reviewing pool,
7:11
I think lends to that but I agree that.
7:15
Yeah. If you're getting, I guess.
7:16
My thought on it was a tie. Never see a low rating from
7:20
coffee room but maybe you're right.
7:22
Is maybe I never see that because no one's gonna put that
7:24
out there. Yeah okay we tried.
7:28
Yeah, I'm gonna find out before this show airs.
7:30
I'm going to find out if there's like a publication where they
7:33
put all of those out there or if it is like part of your fee is
7:37
that we don't say anything like we just won't tell anyone if we
7:41
if we don't. Yeah, so I would say that that
7:45
my my comments right there, were maybe a little All skewed
7:48
because of exactly that where I'm like, okay, everyone gets a
7:51
92, everyone gets a 97 like because, you know, hopefully I
7:56
think if you're sending your coffee and you probably know
8:00
that it's pretty good, but to speak a little bit more to the
8:03
score and actually early on. In my career I would say I was
8:09
definitely a little bit like I don't know how I feel about the
8:13
scoring but as I've progressed and as I use it more and more as
8:19
a tool, it is a very useful way to communicate quality to
8:27
whether it be producers or importers or, you know, as a
8:33
copy Trader. I'm not a copy Trader but of
8:35
copy Trader selling me coffee. It's sort of a universal way to
8:39
understand quality. E of coffee and so when I get a
8:45
coffee sample, I receive a sample and whether it be a new
8:52
coffee, we're looking for or coffee.
8:54
We've gotten the past, I'll sample roast it, and as I kept
8:58
it, according to the sca standard cupping and sheet will
9:05
will score the coffee and then I can go back to the producer or
9:10
importer will That score as well as full detailed notes around
9:15
flavor profile acidity after taste Aroma Body Balance.
9:21
And, like, my overall thoughts on the coffee and to them,
9:25
they're like, okay, I can understand this.
9:28
And this score is actually very close to how we've scored it.
9:31
So we're sort of on the same page of where this coffee is and
9:36
furthermore these scores can help like better also.
9:41
I understand how much you're paying for coffee, you know, and
9:45
there's a lot of factors that go into the cost of coffee but
9:48
quality, being a really big part of it.
9:50
So that's some thoughts on the scoring system on that side of
9:54
things, where it is a really useful tool to be able to
9:59
communicate with people that maybe are in different countries
10:03
or different areas of country. So it kind of goes back to our
10:06
conversations previously about creating a vocabulary for
10:10
yourself around coffee. Tasting, but it's almost like
10:13
it's creating a numerical vocabulary where?
10:16
Yeah, obviously, we're going to have our own objective and
10:19
subjective tastes, we're going to have different palettes, but
10:22
if enough people are tasting coffees and coming up with
10:25
similar results, you can generally agree that you know,
10:29
the coffee is of a certain quality or certain level, you
10:31
know? It's if we all see look at the
10:33
same wall and we all see blue, then we can generally assume
10:36
that wall is blue and yeah, kind of the same way with if we all
10:40
score this coffee and we're all in, A up within a few points of
10:42
each other or a few adjustments to each other.
10:45
Then we can generally agree that it's good or, you know, or less
10:49
valuable less quality. Yeah, exactly.
10:54
And I think, I think again, like earlier in my coffee Journey,
11:01
sometimes it was a little bit frustrating.
11:03
You're just like feels very may. Be hard to use, but I've
11:07
actually found and I remember having conversations with other
11:11
People that were kind of at a similar level to me, feeling the
11:14
same way and I'd actually be interested to have these
11:17
conversations conversation with them.
11:19
Now, we're with more time and experience.
11:22
Honestly, it's a tool that you have to practice using, you
11:25
know, it's like the the scoring system is a six to nine, point
11:30
seven, five or 10 and increments and .25.
11:35
So it's like what is good? What is very good?
11:39
What's excellent like really being able All to objectively,
11:43
kind of identify what that is and what that means.
11:46
And I think that takes cupping with people who are more
11:49
experienced with you, then you again cupping for me.
11:53
Something I do with all the copies that I do is I cut blind.
11:56
So I don't know what the coffee is, I don't know.
12:00
Like, I don't know anything other than maybe seeing the
12:02
roasted bean and then the sensory experience I'm having
12:06
while I'm coming. So, does that mean someone else
12:11
does that mean someone else sets it?
12:12
Like you're coming up for you. So I wish in a perfect world
12:16
that would be really cool. What I do is I as I'm laying out
12:22
all the cups, I turn everything upside down, and I kind of mix
12:25
them up. And then, as I'm laying them
12:27
out, I like don't look. And then I put the cup back
12:30
upside down or the the jar that has the sample in it upside
12:34
down. It's not the perfect way to do
12:37
it, but I do try to keep it. I'm pretty serious about it and
12:43
I'm not I'm not trying to you know not I'm not trying to look
12:51
I'm tryna should I say you're not cheating the system?
12:55
You're trying to keep it as as organic as possible within
12:58
reason which kind of leads me to.
12:59
My next question, cupping assistant would be a cool job or
13:03
your position to be cool to have somebody in that job.
13:06
I would love life that kind of makes me wonder.
13:11
I think we all are familiar with like front-of-house coffee shop
13:15
jobs, Barista, or server that type of thing.
13:19
I'm wondering if you can give us a little bit of background and
13:22
what types of jobs are available in, on the roasting side of
13:26
things. Obviously there's roaster, the
13:28
person who is doing that, but there must be a path that gets
13:31
you there. How does that work?
13:34
How does someone get their start?
13:35
And that's something that you and I talked about earlier this
13:38
year when, and when I was looking at potentially being a
13:42
part of that. Yeah so I think that's a great
13:46
question because I do think you know people are like oh no
13:49
working coffee. So I'll be a barista and you
13:51
know there's definitely I mean there are definitely career
13:55
Baristas but you know some folks want to go and seek out those
14:01
next steps. And I will say specifically, At
14:07
least here in California or even in San Diego.
14:10
It seems currently there's not a lot of businesses that are set
14:15
up to support a career Barista. There's definitely a ceiling
14:19
there. But if you're trying to get into
14:23
roasting there's definitely a lot of different.
14:27
Trajectories you could take I think to speak to my own
14:30
experience. I do believe, you know, I had
14:34
the experience of sort of working my way up.
14:37
Having worked as a barista, a priest, a trainer, and really
14:41
wanting to learn more about the supply chain and specifically,
14:45
learn the skill of roasting, I was able to get a job as an
14:51
assistant roaster and lofty was different than it is now.
14:57
And a lot of a lot of being an assistant roaster for me was
15:02
calculating pars Wayne out coffee bagging.
15:07
Setting up toppings, the way that lofty is now.
15:11
I still do a lot of that stuff, even as the Director of coffee.
15:17
That is, I think getting your foot in the door with a small
15:21
roaster and seeing gives you the ability to like grow with them.
15:25
So as they grow potentially, you have opportunity to grow into
15:29
those roles, another role. I've seen specifically at
15:33
Lochte, for our Junior roast. Our current Junior Roasters is
15:37
them starting in production because and production for a
15:41
Roasting Company can look just like I said, bagging coffee
15:45
delivering packages. Packaging cleaning coffee
15:52
equipment, and you know, lifting, heavy coffee bags and,
15:58
and as an appropriate product or Brewing cold brew tagging cold.
16:03
Brew production is a great way in because at that point you're
16:07
already working with a production roaster.
16:10
In the sense that maybe you're standing next to the coffee
16:13
roaster, as a roasting, and you're bagging the coffee and
16:16
your In close proximity to The Roaster itself.
16:22
I think I've seen some other Roasters coming from import and
16:27
trading companies, I've seen Roasters who, you know, are
16:32
potentially copying Assistance or sample Roasters for these
16:37
import or trading companies. And from there, whether they
16:42
start their own business, or they have that again, that
16:45
proximity to coffee. Be itself and when you're
16:48
looking for opportunities, you're like, oh well, I've
16:52
sampled roast or this import company for so long like that's
16:56
some experience and a foot in the door to pursuing.
17:00
Roasting, there's a, there's an unglamorous side to that
17:05
beginning, part before you get to what we all look at, as the
17:09
rock star like, you know, as the head roaster, where everything
17:12
is just kind of taken care of for you and you have roast your
17:15
people, bringing your coffees all day.
17:18
I'm saying that facetiously obviously, but there is kind of
17:23
this like, there's real work involved.
17:25
It's, you know, there is a disconnect I think between
17:29
people who are outside the industry, whether it's coffee or
17:34
beer and wine, or Hospitality in general, where they only see
17:38
kind of the Glamorous side of it and the fun side of it.
17:41
But there's also like this works out of it, like, in order to do
17:44
this, it is a manufacturing process to some extent.
17:47
And deciding what, what level of commitment you want to make and
17:52
wear your personality is at that point in your life is important
17:56
to, you know, you mentioned like Barista being a barista or being
18:02
a bartender, or a server requires a certain type of
18:05
personality and you can have that personality but that could
18:09
also change over time. I was a server and a bartender
18:13
and, you know, I've worked in the back of a restaurant.
18:17
I at the age that I am now, I don't necessarily feel is
18:20
enthusiastic about that opportunity as I would have 15
18:24
years ago and so knowing that you are, your personality might
18:29
change over time. And also kind of looking at
18:31
your, at the trajectory of that opportunity is important.
18:35
So if you are starting off as a barista but your goal is to be a
18:39
roaster. What are you doing to get to
18:41
that point? And what's something you
18:43
mentioned that I think is really valuable is Is.
18:48
Putting yourself in a position to spend time with people who
18:51
are in that role. So you are learning those
18:53
things, you know, just by being around them or, you know, if you
18:58
are in production, you're already there.
19:00
So when there's opportunities to sample, Rose door to practice
19:04
roast getting involved. Yeah.
19:06
And I think that you bring something up, Ryan, that I think
19:11
is an important question to ask yourself if this is something
19:15
you want to pursue is why? Because, like you said, it's for
19:23
whatever reasons. Yeah, the coffee roasters are
19:26
looked at as rock stars and, and sometimes some coffee roasters
19:31
act like them, but I, I just think that it is straight up a
19:38
manual labor job, and it's tedious, and it's hard work.
19:44
And to me, it's funny that you mention and the Roses as a rock
19:49
star and potentially, that's because of how coffee shops.
19:52
Display them in a little glass box.
19:54
But to me, the real rock stars, are the people in these
19:58
producing countries, who are really put.
20:01
Like, it's funny as you know, I just think it may in the
20:08
perspective of it all. I'm like, yeah, it's hard work.
20:11
But there's people further further along the chain, the
20:15
chain that are doing even harder work.
20:17
So, It's just part of it, but asking yourself.
20:20
Why, why do you want to be a roaster?
20:23
Because if it is to be a rock star, you are mistaken, because
20:28
you're going to spend days with coffee, chaff, and grease up
20:33
your elbows, and you're going to have days where you're lifting
20:36
over 3,000 pounds of coffee, and you're going to have days where
20:40
you're behind the crop, stir, computer screen, and you're
20:44
roasting kind of hours a day and it's monotonous.
20:48
And you feel like your brain is going to explode, and this isn't
20:52
to scare everyone off. But I do think, you know why I
20:55
love it so much, and why I have continued to pursue this
21:02
trajectory for myself is because I'm continuously surprised and
21:09
coffee, excites me. And I can get obsessive about
21:16
those few seconds and Feud. Freeze in those monotonous, Lee
21:19
long days that you can just like guide further into and I do it
21:28
because it's crap that I can work on every single day and
21:34
feel like I've been doing this for six years and I still have
21:38
this curiosity of. Hey, is this correct?
21:43
Am I doing this right? Can, can I be better?
21:48
Better, I could be better. I just feel like I can always be
21:51
better. In the coffee can always taste
21:52
better and I just feel like it's a craft that continues continues
22:00
to Humble me and continues to keep me on my toes and keeps me
22:04
curious and excited. So I think these are important
22:08
questions to ask yourself if this is the way you want to go.
22:11
Because if it is, to just look cool behind the shiny machine.
22:15
Maybe you should should should keep asking yourself that
22:21
question. I think the problem is is if
22:24
they listen to this show, their hearing how passionate you are
22:27
about coffee and it makes them excited about coffee too.
22:31
I hope I really do. Yeah, for me, I'm listening to
22:36
you talk about. It makes me, it actually kind of
22:39
does the opposite. It makes me realize that, like,
22:42
I want people like you to be making the coffee and I just
22:45
want to drink it and and learn from you.
22:48
So I appreciate you coming and sharing that knowledge with us
22:51
and I'm looking forward to talking to you one more time
22:54
this season, and I'll see you soon.
22:56
Thanks for having me back. So, let's just take a minute to
23:15
talk about coffee review and reviews.
23:17
In general, coffee review is a professional reviewing website,
23:22
publication that comes out every single month and they've been
23:25
around since 1997. Which means they're almost old
23:28
enough to rent a car. Their rating system is based on
23:32
a 100-point scale broken down into the same categories that
23:36
the sca uses in their coffee cupping scoring guides.
23:40
And according to Coffee review, they conduct blind expert.
23:43
Couplings of coffees from all over the world and then provide
23:47
in-depth tasting reports, they're fairly established and
23:51
well respected in the industry and Syria is right in saying
23:54
that getting a coffee review does cost a roaster money.
23:58
The fees range from about 200 to Fifty dollars per review,
24:02
Kenneth David's and Ron Walters founded coffee review and nearly
24:07
all of the reviews are still written by mr.
24:09
David's. Along with to establish tasters,
24:11
one of whom is a q greater, which we've discussed in
24:15
previous coffee smarter. Episodes is a coffee.
24:18
Taster, trained extensively in all aspects of coffee flavor.
24:22
While the reviewers are well, regarded well-respected coffee
24:25
professionals. There is still the issue of
24:27
subjectivity when it comes to reviews and to their credit.
24:30
Reddit coffee review, writes extensively about that,
24:33
subjectivity and relativity, surrounding their reviews and
24:37
how they've aimed to establish a baseline for them.
24:39
They even provide a guide on how to interpret reviews so that we
24:43
all have an understanding of that Baseline.
24:46
What it comes back to is creating a language.
24:48
In this case, a numerical language around coffee and I
24:52
would venture that we can acknowledge that there will be
24:54
subjectivity issues with the review process.
24:57
But without disregarding the value of a high score especially
25:01
considering that coffees that score low are also published.
25:05
But like we said during the show it seems unlikely that a roaster
25:08
would broadcast that widely making it more likely that were
25:11
only going to hear about the good scores.
25:14
I'll link to the reviews which are broken into categories by
25:16
score and show examples of the sca cupping score sheet on roast
25:21
westcoast.com to me, the score of the coffee, might make me
25:24
want to try it, and I can appreciate that.
25:26
It's showing respect for the farmers That Grew that coffee
25:29
and also for the roasters that roasted it.
25:32
But it isn't why I drink a coffee nor why I have a great
25:35
experience at a cafe for me. Coffee is about community and
25:39
connecting with other human beings a skill.
25:42
I am woefully out of practice Sat after a year-and-a-half a
25:45
pandemic. It's why I made a point to say
25:47
hello to the Baristas and Roasters.
25:49
I met along the way on my recent, cross-country road trip
25:52
including the effervescent Katie Hendricks of Aspen Street Coffee
25:56
in Fruita Colorado. What is it that you love about
26:02
this? Cop Shop is Katie Hendrix and I
26:08
manage. History.
26:30
We have original ceilings and the front door and the Vault of
26:34
the bank. The building is at least I think
26:39
at this point 120 years old and everybody as far as my lifetime
26:45
I'm 30 has known this place as a coffee shop but it's really
26:50
mostly a place to congregate like a locals all year come in
26:54
here and you know everybody's business because it's a song.
26:59
And they are willing to share with you, trust me.
27:02
You don't have to ask and then you get to meet a lot of cool
27:05
people from out of town because of mountain biking here in the
27:09
valley. People come from all over the
27:11
world literally to Camp here and to see the trail ride the
27:16
trails. So honestly it's it's a it's
27:20
pretty like Cosmopolitan when it comes down to it but it's a good
27:24
place to be. I'm from here.
27:25
I grew up here so like I've come and gone a several times.
27:28
Lived abroad. Several times and went to
27:30
college came back and every year who keeps getting better and
27:34
better, As you can tell Aspen Street, Coffee is a hub in.
27:41
What on paper should be a sleepy little town, west of the
27:44
Foothills leading into the Rocky Mountains.
27:46
But in reality is a Hopping mountain biking paradise and
27:50
access to some of the West's more incredible Landscapes
27:54
thanks to Katie for chatting with me for just a few moments
27:56
in the middle of a busy morning in the cafe.
27:59
A final coffee smarter note today.
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Siri brought it up while discussing why she is so
28:04
passionate about her work and I want to reinforce it.
28:07
Roasting coffee is a craft, an ever-evolving craft in something
28:11
that she takes pride in and takes pride in getting better at
28:15
when you're drinking coffee from your local roaster, be at lofty
28:18
or one of our roast industry Partners like steady state, or
28:20
most trout or coffee cycle. They're sharing something of
28:24
themselves with you through the coffee.
28:25
They've created. Yes, there is a production
28:28
aspect to coffee but it is still people working to create
28:32
something that they are proud of to share with all of us who
28:35
enjoy that coffee and that's pretty.
28:37
Be cool. That is it for today's show had
28:39
to roast westcoast.com to find links to our other show
28:42
Partners, like Maria coffee leap, coffee, zoom, bar coffee,
28:46
and tea, first light, whiskey Camp, coffee company and Cape
28:50
Horn coffee. Thank you again, to Siri for
28:52
being an expert on the show, maybe we can get Netflix on
28:55
board with our coffee smarter travel show idea.
28:57
If Siri is a guest star. What do you think?
29:00
Netflix, give us a call. If you want these show sent
29:03
right to your email along with articles, about coffee photos,
29:06
and videos and vocabulary. So make sure you sign up for the
29:09
newsletter and or a subscription at roast westcoast.com.
29:13
This episode of the roast West Coast coffee.
29:16
Podcast is was has been written produced and recorded by me Ryan
29:21
world. I hope this show has found you
29:23
happy healthy and with at least enough sanity to make it through
29:27
the day and please always tip your Baristas and be sure to
29:33
drink good coffee.