Latest / Really Renée / Ep. 9 - AI, Honestly: Two Designers, Two Approaches with Nasozi Kakembo

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Ep. 9 - AI, Honestly: Two Designers, Two Approaches with Nasozi Kakembo · Really Renée

• Sam Struck: Okay, so this is the episode that I've been waiting to do, but full transparency. It was very difficult to get people to say yes to joining me. ⁓ this is the conversation we're gonna have around AI, AI in the interior design world and small business, all the things. ⁓ it's been very interesting to see everyone kind of struggle with this idea and its integration and its kind of concerns around creativity. And one of the things that I feel is important is to just have conversations. So today's guest is Nasosi Kakembo of XN Studio. And she's an amazing interior designer on the East Coast. She's also a book writer of the design edit. And she was willing. She was willing to just have a conversation around how she uses AI. And we talk about how we use AI in our studio. And honestly, this was just such a great conversation to be able to Introduce the topic and open the door. So I'm well aware of all of the controversies surrounding it. And I just think that we have to be able to have conversations in order to learn. So my hope is that this ⁓ conversation inspires and leads to curiosity. And if you have any questions or concerns, we want to hear about it. So send us a DM, drop a comment. And if you'd like to get connected to Nizosi's work, feel free to check out the links below. We're dreamers. other people say we're dreamers. Thank you so much for joining me. I'm so excited to have this conversation around AI and interiors and kind of what's been going on in our worlds. ⁓ I found you through your article on Business of Home. And I was just like, Yes, somebody's willing to like have a conversation about this. And so I'm really excited about today. I'm really excited about the opportunity to kind of just share what's, you know, maybe how you use I AI, how I use AI, and maybe just ⁓ create a space where people can be curious about what that looks like for an interior design company. So ⁓ before we like dive in, I would love to know from you maybe a little bit of ⁓ background information around like How much you feel like you have AI integrated into your business and like what ways you use it, you know? Yes. So I want to back up a little bit and kind of in a way, like set ⁓ a shared, maybe even definition or or broach the conversation around the subject around a shared definition of AI. Because if we're looking at how I engage with it today. ⁓ it's in fact not much different than how I've been engaging with technology for decades prior to the advent of AI of AI as we know it today. So, and I will use the example of ⁓ the when the beta for generative AI was launched ⁓ in Adobe Photoshop. And that was at a very like critical juncture in my photography work at the time. I was writing my book. This was the tail end of my book. ⁓ I think I had just submitted my manuscript and I was photo editing. I took the majority of the photo photographs for my book, The African Decor Edit. And I was still photo editing even the photos, like some of the a handful of the photos that I didn't take, but making store that ⁓ you know, the the Coloring and the aesthetics were uniform, as uniform as they could be throughout the book. So there were certain tweaks that I was making, and in the very traditional way that I had always used and learned they'll be Photoshop, it was very manual, but it's always been this technology where you could do montages and you could create worlds and create images from collages. And you had to know, you know, very manually the like plethora of. tools that Adobe Photoshop has, ⁓ and Adobe Suite, you know, beyond, beyond Photoshop, ⁓ which 20, 30 years later, like I'm still learning something every time I go into that program. ⁓ and not necessarily because it's new, it's something that's always been there. There are just so many ways to skin a cat in that program. So I remember manually like Clearing out some wires from some interior, you know, some there were some chords that were visible. and within like the acceptable practice of interiors, which there's always been this gray area, which I'll get to later. Totally. But there's always been this gray area in terms of like how much as designers and photo editors and photographers, we can manipulate an image. And so editing out wires and cords. like unsightly wires and cords is has always been acceptable. ⁓ so then that kind of begs the question, well, where do we where do we draw the line? Like what can we omit? What what can we add? ⁓ but the addition and the generation of things that weren't there that were not originally in the photograph, that conversation didn't even really exist yet in 2022 when Adobe launched this feature in beta. So literally, I remember one day in particular, I'm like painstakingly editing out some wires, finish the thing, submit all of my photos to my publishing team. And like the very next day or later that week, the generative AI, which also has a removing feature, but the the beta is launched. And I was like, What is this about? Like, no way. Like, if this is doing what it says it can do, this would have saved me like, you know, 16 hours of my day, like, you know, just a few days ago. So I started going back to some of the same images, but the unedited versions and trying out the feature. And lo and behold, within a matter of seconds, the work that took me. eight plus hours to do like a full day's worth of work. Yeah done. And I really had to sit with that because, you know, in that instance and using that feature, it was called artificial intelligence, generative artificial intel intelligence. But a few days prior, it was just me doing this same exact thing manually, but obviously it taking me so much longer. So that really begins, I think, the conversation about the divide and what's too far, you know, what's going too far and what's acceptable and what's not acceptable. ⁓ and I've continued to, you know, confront that in my photo editing work. And then earlier this year, the software that I used for specifically my interior design portfolio and projects and and you know, everything essentially everything that I do for interior design, they also launched a generative AI feature. And it's still very, very clunky. I think to some extent, like it's, you know, it adds kind of a bow, a bow on on top of ⁓ the type of work that I could already produce without it. But that's not to say it's not going to be so much more. Sure. Advanced in a year. And that particular feature, like a it's a photorealistic rendering feature that I A didn't have before, like built into the software that I already use regularly. And then B, when I would seek, you know, to be able to outsource and have somebody else produce those images, ⁓ it was thousands and thousands of dollars. ⁓ so To the extent that I use it now in my work, I do use it to translate some of my finished ideas into a photorealistic image. And then I do use it to enhance some of my photography in interior design, and in, you know, even in my book and on my website images, et cetera. So those are the the two primary ways on a very high level that I engage with artificial intelligence, primarily in the form of generative AI in my work ⁓ on a daily, yeah, pretty regular basis. I love that. I wonder if ⁓ my mind is curious, like because you have ⁓ almost like a leap leapfrogged from photography into interiors, ⁓ if you were like more willing to adopt, because I feel like the maybe the AI in the photography world preceded a lot of the AI that we're seeing right this second as as tools within business and interiors and whatnot. So ⁓ in a sense it's almost like you're like a little bit of an early adopter because you you had access to a tool before ⁓ maybe those those tools became mainstream with within the interiors world. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. So absolutely. And especially My my undergraduate education is in ⁓ is in architecture and art history and in architecture. Like we've always had programs that translated, you know, ideas and abstract notions into actual concrete, true figurative and literal concrete. So, you know, we can also does that fall within, you know, the AI pool CAD has always, well not always, but CAD has been around. For decades. ⁓ And that's a whole nother form of translating ⁓ and really building on the hu the extents and the boundaries of human capability and extrapolating from that point. So CAD has always done that, but there hasn't been, you know, so much of a concerted backlash or conversation around the ⁓ appropriateness of. using CAD. CAD is industry standard. Everybody uses everybody every architect uses CAD, which I never could really figure out my way around. ⁓ but yeah, there have always been these programs in architecture and interior design. We just did it. We just called them something else. ⁓ and then now they're I think being lumped together with in a sense ⁓ with with the whole umbrella that is AI. And I also have to recognize at the same time, as an author and a writer as well, there's a whole nother conversation totally taking place in that in in that industry. and there it has come at a much bigger as a much bigger shock ⁓ because it's completely revolutionized overnight ⁓ the capabilities of you know a writing and editing in a way that we're really with you know photography and design and we've we've had like we've had some lead, we've had a bit of a head start. Yeah, I love that. It's interesting because ⁓ I think that there's this assumption that in the interiors world, when we talk about engaging with AI or artificial intelligence, whatever, I think it's that that means that we're relying on that for creative work and that it's not a byproduct of what we're doing. And I think it's ⁓ right. I think that's really sad because I I haven't talked to a single designer yet that is using it in that way. I think it's, you know, mostly otherwise we wouldn't be doing this. Like why would we be here? Totally. And I do think, I mean frankly, I do think that AI will will reach a place where a small subset of the market will use AI instead of coming to a designer ⁓ because they can get, you know, maybe close to what we can produce. ⁓ but I but I have to believe that there's like a larger group that still wants a human touch, a human experience. They still want to be like stewarded on a journey. And so ⁓ I don't think that we're there yet to where like our industry should feel completely jeopardized. And at the same time, I think that there's some really excellent tools out there that can help benefit business. So in like my world, we don't really use AI for any renderings ⁓ or any design based stuff on our end. ⁓ of course, I will say, like to your point, defining what AI is, we use tools like I moved from Photoshop. I w you know went to college and had to do Photoshop for our mood boards. Yeah. And we have shifted to Canva because the tools within it, which are also like pretty much AI, ⁓ you know, they it just makes us more efficient and we can be quicker. So you know, we use tools like that, which are now industry standard, but we're not using it really in like the ⁓ can like in the traditional assumption of like a designer's using it for renderings. I have done that for like a quick turn. A client comes back to us and they're like, want help on with an exterior paint color. And we just like pop a picture in and change a color. And we're like, here's, here you go. so you know, we have done it for things like that. But ⁓ what's kind of revolutionized our business in the last probably six months really has been ⁓ using AI mostly from a a business and operations standpoint. So it's okay. I have me and ⁓ two other people full time. And then I've got different like subcontractors and people that help within their sphere. And so we use AI pretty much every day in terms of like marketing and planning, helping me like a good example is w I have one agent like scans my email at seven o'clock in the morning and then like filters out everything in my email that's like a promotion and then ⁓ right will read through client based emails, send me a brief, and then it will draft a reply for me. So I can just like wow. So you're way ahead of you're way ahead than me. No, I think that there's like this is two sides of the same coin, you know? I think that that's really yeah. How we're using those tools. And you're using the tools more on the design side, and we're using the tools more on the business side right now. So ⁓ I don't I don't see us not ⁓ migrating towards the design side. I just think my natural inclination with it was how can I get back time and efficiency? So my like absolutely the administrative part. Yeah. So we we just have used it more from that perspective. We do a lot of like, I don't know if in your ⁓ business model you guys do procurement, but we do a ton of procurement. So it's like we have ⁓ help with agents like reading our trade email and like telling us what's shipped, what's back ordered, what's not. And so ⁓ it's more just like efficiency models, I guess, that are helping us. Yeah. Okay. Streamline what we're doing. ⁓ but it's not replacing it's not replacing a seat in the office, if that makes sense. Just like helping our capacity. Not at all. Yeah. And none of that is is really like client facing either. Whereas like I'm using it in a in a almost entirely client facing or end user end user way. Which is why I think on my side there are a lot more ⁓ And perhaps in a different way, but there are a lot more like there's a lot more d of that discussion around like transparency and yeah the potential like, you know, intervention or threat of AI and how AI could like displace the designer component of or the the creativity component eventually of yeah, of the design work of interior design. Yeah, I mean, that's a really good point. So I know you are somebody that talks about how we need to have transparency around AI and when we're using it for imagery and things like that and deliverables. So, like, what does that look like for you with the client? How do you disclose that? And then like what what level of transparency do you think we should adopt and be telling people up front? You know what I mean? Right, right. So I find that when I'm working with clients because I'm coming, I mean we're because we're coming in at like the, you know, conceptual stage. And fortunately, like I have enough of a portfolio that I've developed, you know, pre quote unquote AI in terms of generative AI or ⁓ getting ideas from from AI. I don't know how to and and and and in no way am I relying or referring to AI for for ideas. ⁓ I think when and I often I'm finding and you you've mentioned sometime, you know, AI will likely one day get to a point for at least a small percentage of small population where the AI can render something sufficient and, you know, that potential or would be client can figure it out on their own. What I'm finding is that people who try to do that, like I've had a couple of I've been approached by a couple of potential prospective clients ⁓ who have tried to get, you know, AI to do, you know, they've put in the prompts, they've gone to I don't know, Chat GPT or Claude and and tried to come up with a di with a design there and it hasn't doesn't work. ⁓ so then they come, so then they come. to me and they're like, can you not so much can you fix this, but like, and they're, you know, they're transparent about totally what they what they tried to do and and how they can only get so far ⁓ within the abilities and capabilities of of the software. So ⁓ I think this is it's absolutely an a challenge and an opportunity for us as designers who use it, who use AI in whatever fashion on the design side to really hone in on what aspect of our human experience and our lived experience and our creative journeys totally ⁓ what how we make that show up, how that shows up in our work. Like what is that, what is that fingerprint? What is the DNA of our work? And how d does our experience ⁓ shape that? DNA? How does it shape that helix which runs through all of our work? And that piece, ⁓ excuse me, because I follow like this AI conversation, ⁓ you know, far not just in interior design at all, but just like how it's the conversations that are happening in the world, whether it's, you know, the pushback at the recent university graduations with ⁓ you know, the different speakers who were promoting AI and the students. like kind of launching. I heard the other day it was referred to ⁓ as a Luddite rebellion, which I loved that term. ⁓ yeah. But ⁓ but in the various ways that the conversation is being had. but now the challenge is even for those who are strong proponents of, you know, AI and in in the tech world, specifically in the tech world, ⁓ that they're now actually having to take class on what it means to have taste. Because AI doesn't have taste. AI doesn't have that sensibility. And as far as we know, it because taste comes from experience. Taste comes from human connection. Taste comes from traveling. Taste comes from tasting. It's a tangible, it's a real 3D in real life thing. That's how you acquire and and cultivate taste and that sensibility. And you know, nothing is ever going to replace exposure and interaction and curiosity. And that's even a conversation that I have with my son who's 17. He's gonna be a senior in high school in a couple of weeks. And, you know, he's also, I mean, he's a s he's on the cusp of AI, he's not an AI native in the way that, you know, I'm a, you know, I guess we're not even I don't even think I'm an internet native. No, I'm dating myself. ⁓ me though. ⁓ yeah, okay, good. ⁓ but I've seen just in the span of, you know, these four years when AI was launched and he was a tween and now he's a a proper teen, how it has become just so kind of instinctual for him to look up something on, you know, Chat GPT or to kind of skip some of those steps. that I feel are part of the journey of like, you know, developing a sense of curiosity. So constantly, ⁓ which is important regardless of, you know, what field you're in or what regardless of what you're doing with it, like still having to know what the right answer would be or look like without the software, without the technology, because technology invariably will fail at some point. So what happens when we don't have access to that. So I think again, like, you know, knowing whatever your system is, because like even you with creating these systems or ⁓ these, you know, efficiency systems and then technically like outsourcing it to AI, you still have to know what's going on. Like you still need to have that experience because it's the same if you outsourced it to a human being. You still have to know like, okay, yeah, like do the spot checks and be like, yeah, this makes sense. This is This trackness is so it doesn't actually like it it removes the the you know the like the grunt work, but we still have to know we still have to be the experts in our respective fields, which I find is like very important. And again, like why we're here and why we're doing this work. Yeah, no, I agree. It's interesting that you say that because it's I mean, that's absolutely true. Whenever we've tried to create a new system. within the business that we're trying to like train AI on or whatnot, it's really not smart. Like it really doesn't know how to do it. And so ⁓ it's it is like training a human, so to speak, and like, okay, this is what the problem is. This is what I want you to learn. I want you to develop this skill. And it isn't innate. It takes time. It takes a lot of like going back and forth before it's something that like actually runs efficiently. And so yeah, I think for us, my goal with it was like, I'm not really trying, I mean, just for context, I had a team of five and then our market ⁓ stalled after the election. And so I think in Hood River, we're like an insulated lifestyle town that typically we have the highest per capita income in the state, but ⁓ we're typically insulated from like the political moment. But I think This particular election cycle ⁓ really threw people off. We're we are Oregonians, we're sensitive beings. We we like really had a hard time adjusting. And so ⁓ I had to lay off my team and just like pare down and just like keep the doors open and focus on like my family. And so then when I got to a place where business picked back up and I was like, okay, now. I'm hiring, but there's these opportunities to leverage making our efficiency better to where I maybe don't need to hire five people. I could maybe hire three back, see how that goes, or ⁓ get to the point where, you know, we can handle a a decent project load without me needing to manage a ton of people. Cause frankly, for me as a business owner, it was very tiring to manage more people. Yeah. ⁓ from like just like an emotional standpoint, when I regrew, I really wanted to be like very intentional over I'm gonna hire one person at a time. We're gonna sit together and then we're gonna hire the next person. I literally just hired the third person on the team last week. And so Wow, congratulations. Thank you. and and in doing that, we've integrated like I said, these kind of efficiency strategies. That have allowed my business to get to the same, essentially the same level of revenue that I was pre-stall, but with just three people instead of five. And so in terms of business and profitability, it has it hasn't replaced people because I didn't, it's not like I laid off people to ⁓ to do those things. But at the same time, it has made us more profitable and increased our efficiency and capacity because we are able to manage more. By leveraging the tools that are available. So I think that's where I tend to be like really passionate about this topic because I think it's ⁓ you know, we're all in the trenches of small business and we're all like trying to figure it out. And we all want to be able to have work-life balance and we all want to be able to like do the things. And so part of my like whole reason that I like talking about this is because I'm like, holy crap, this is. actually really cool that we've been able to get to that same level of revenue with this with these efficiency systems. ⁓ and our team still feels like we're not stressed. We're we actually feel okay. And so ⁓ right. I think that there's there's a lot of benefit to it. Now I agree though, like it's still just like a muddled conversation over like how much we use. And we do people will ask us. We live in a very tech heavy area. So we have like literally the drone capital of the United States is in our teeny tiny town. ⁓ wow. So ⁓ we have we also have like a really big Google data center about 20 minutes from us. And ⁓ we have a ton of like subsidiary companies situated in that drone sphere. So we have a lot of like random political dignitaries visiting and learning about drones. And so it's a very weird like micro pocket of technology. And so we do get people ask us that, you know, clients that ask us, like, do you use AI? And I'm like, Yeah, we do. ⁓ mostly for like if streams of efficiency and business, ⁓ you know, you're always gonna be talking to me on the phone. You're always gonna be like talking to me in the field. ⁓ all of our emails are still us. We're still reading them. The draft might be preliminarily put together by an agent, but like we're reading those. They don't have the authority to just like reply for us. And ⁓ you know, we don't we definitely hold tight to the human process of our of our business, if that makes sense. So right. Yeah. That does make sense. And I wonder, like, even to say or even to ask to pose the question, do you use AI? That's such a gen I mean, AI is such a generic term. So I wonder if, you know, when people are asking you that question, like 10 people could be asking you that question and they could all mean something entirely different by that question. yeah. So it's like, we'll use it in like they could be asking it more. Cause I would think my assumption is that they would be asking whether you use it in on the design end or, but I feel like in any sense, like as a client or as a customer, like delving into the back end, you know, the back end tanglings of my, you know, of the of the business is like not necessarily my business. But Yeah. Yeah. I mean, but people are nosy. I mean, like people ask us before on renderings, they'll be like, do you do these in house? And I'm like, no, we we definitely outsource those. And so I think there's always we have a very like, I don't know about your market in particular, but like our market is very pragmatic. The the saying I like to say to people is like, We have the largest per capita income and people will spend like a quarter million on a sprinter van that's fully fitted out, but they would in no way ever drive like a Porsche. So they like there's this idea of like, well, if it's being outsourced, then what's the rate for that and why? So it's mostly for them like a money thing. Which is fine. And I don't mind the question I'm very direct, 'cause I'm like, well, it doesn't matter. If I'm doing it or they're doing it, I'm overseeing it before you see it. So you're paying for that. So Right, exactly. Which they should also understand as, you know, one of those if they're scrutinizing the line of each We just have like a really interesting micro as a culture here. So it's just like a very fascinating. fascinating little group of people. But ⁓ hey, so if you're finding this content helpful or informative, I would so appreciate if you could consider subscribing to us and leaving a comment or a review just so that we can reach more people, reach more designers and help elevate the design community. Thanks for tuning in. I still use we do outsource our renderings. ⁓ and we still use one person. She's literally been with my company for like I want to say like five or six years, honestly. and because we ⁓ our business is definitely more situated on like architectural detailing, any of the renderings we do have to be like actually accurate to the exact drawings. So even when I've played around with, you know, Nano Banana Pro and like sticking stuff in there, I'm like this the proportions on this are still not a hundred percent to where I feel good. Showing it to a client. So and to your other point. Yeah. I did have a client come in ⁓ with like our elevations that they had like put in chat GPT and they had like colorized it. And so they were like, We we did this. What do you think? Wow. And I was like, Wow, it changed the whole like actually it like condensed your whole house and the roof lines are incorrect. And so the proportions are And they're like, well, we just want it to look like this. I'm like, it can't. This isn't even your house. Like it's but they don't see that. Exactly. So they were like, it does look what that makes me think of is ⁓ even even in the like the medical industry, and I'll just use dentistry as the example. Like my son had when he was, I don't know, nine or so, this actually happened twice, but like he chipped his two front teeth. And he we took him to the dentist, he got the the bonds, and then like a number of years later, he did it again. And so we go back to the dentist. This time we're living in another state. And then for whatever reason, that bond, one of the two wasn't ⁓ adhered properly and it came off on the first day of high school. And so, and then we had a wedding a couple of days later. So I rush him back to the dentist and they're like, Well, ⁓ Yeah, that you know, the dentist who did that work is not in today and like I can't do work on other people's, you know, once they've done it, I can't touch it. And I was like, I was on almost the verge of a like meltdown. So eventually they saw my son. But the lesson is that like, you know, dentists even and the medical you know, medical professionals are very particular about not touching other people's work. Or other in our case, like other technologies work. And that rendering is coming to you, coming to us in a way that like we almost it's unrecognizable. We don't even know, we don't know what the process or the procedure was there. Now, in the instance of the dentist, maybe they could have gone through and looked at the notes or done whatever. But they're just like, we're not doing this. So I think for us as interior designers, we could be like, I'm not doing that. Yeah. Like we have to start from scratch so that because we build this, you know, we work with you from the ground up and you know, the ideas and the work builds on previous, you know, groundwork that's laid by us based on our procedures and our expertise, et cetera, et cetera. But ⁓ going back, I think I kind of got off like minutes, many minutes ago, but going back to how like I how or where I disclose the transparency, ⁓ I think I was I started to say that almost from you know from the outset. I, you know, explain to my clients, mostly in the in the context of deliverables, because it's an iterative process. So I say, like, you know, at first I'll give you, I'll sh generate a mood board for you to review and, you know, get your sign up on, and we can move things around in there. and from that I'll develop like a 2D. rendering so you can get an idea of like what everything looks like together, like more conceptually. And then once that's approved, I will share the photorealistic rendering. And that's where the AI comes in. Now even a funny story on that, again, this was the year twenty twenty two. That was such a big year in the AI. ⁓ but so this was like this was summer of twenty twenty two. I was working on a full like bathroom renovation. And I was on the road by this point. I was finishing up or doing research for my books. I'm I was finishing up this project from Uganda, but I had already done like really the bulk of the work and like, you know, before I had before I left. and so this was just like refining some of the design components and then we already had hired contractors and all of that good stuff. So ⁓ put together a rendering, but in in Photoshop. And it was the client, the main point of contact for the project was the, it was a couple and I was working closely with the wife. She had like the initial approvals and et cetera. And she would share the the designs with her husband. And so she shared one of she shared the rendering with her husband. And she told me later that. He got confused because he was like, but wait a minute, like I didn't know the project was done already. And she's like, No, this isn't our bathroom. Like this is this is a this is a a rendering. And yes, I had to chuckle because you know that was just again something I put together in Photoshop. And it is the same exact thing. I think at one point too, and I'd actually started going back to even old, old projects that ⁓ the it that the generative, the photorealistic ⁓ feature didn't exist for when I created going back, applying that feature and seeing how much that differed from what I put together, you know, the manual analog way just a couple of years ago. And it wasn't remarkably different or better. Now, in some instances, like there is a project I've been working on in Uganda and like I'm adding an entire new story to a home and like it's it's a very like in-depth thing. So in that instance, I can like it's it's a huge lifesaver because it ⁓ it really helps me translate the idea from like just a much more two-dimensional, like yeah, two-dimensional looking room or space to something that the client understands. Whereas for me, Again, being trained in architecture and just the way that I look at the world, like I can see a whole plan come together from a blueprint. Like totally different kind of projects up for me and I and I can't see the thing. But that's not how everybody's brain works. And that's usually not how our clients' brains work, which is why they hire us. So, you know, I approach it as something fun, but they they're they very much see the parts of the process ⁓ that are coming from our conversation, that are coming from ⁓ you know, the ideas that they sent me that are coming from the experiences that I've shared. And I also, you know, I I you I'm an avid social media user. So they know where my inspiration is coming from. They know where I've traveled. They know where I've gone to school. They know all of these elements ⁓ that feed into my projects. And really one of the examples that I'll use is a project I just finished up. in Boston and ⁓ the the paint color I actually I absolutely love this this like genre of paint anyway but it's like that Merloty like aubergine you know paint color and there are like so many versions of it every every paint paint company has a colorway and then like 50 million shades and iterations of it so with anything within that family I love but there was one one of the options ⁓ at the Benjamin Moore store was called Nouveau Beaujolais. And I was like, I freaked out because I was in Paris in November on Nouveau Beaujolais Day. So I was like, that's the one. You're like, kizmet. Yep, this is it. End of discussion. And they were like, great. So like being able to share that anecdote with them because, you know, I traveled, I had the experience and did it all. Like AI is not going to do that. So I kind of I was able to plug it into the rendering. Like Benjamin Moore is available in the program and it could be rendered beautifully, but I had to select it. And I selected it based on, you know, my travel there. And then like another tile wall that I had seen and another nuke and cranny. ⁓ so there's all of that that feeds into our process. And it's so much more than like, you know, when when we live and breathe these things, it's always percolating. It's always happening. Right. Yeah, no, I agree with that. I think that's a really good. ⁓ I think that just reminds us all that like we still are in control of this. I think where the lines maybe get yeah blurred or I'm curious about is like or your perspective is like let's talk about maybe the emerging designer that ⁓ is using mostly AI ⁓ conceptual photos on a portfolio to like now sell their services. ⁓ I have no opinion of this. I'm just curious if it's like, you know, is does that feel like we're crossing a line to just ⁓ and I guess maybe the the answer is like how much are they directing that? But how does the consumer know that? How do we help the consumer both vet from like an ethical standpoint that somebody is fully qualified versus maybe also encouraging the d design industry to either like report transparency on a website and say these are you know rendered photos of work that I would really like to do or inspiration that I would like to do. We have done that. So as a side we had a year where we really wanted to lean into like boutique commercial in our lifestyle town. So we did come up with conceptual projects and rendered them and then we're like This is an inspiration of a project that we want to be able to acquire. And so we're gonna market it. But we say that this is like not a project. We don't list it as like this is a real project. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm just curious like thoughts on that. I think it's as simple as that. And even if we go back to ⁓ like the education, the education context. ⁓ so when I was in architecture school, like we actually had to put together, like, you know, we would come up with these, you know, landscapes or temples or whatever the whatever the concept was that we were tasked with as architecture students and execute it with essentially cardboard, like cardboard and toothpicks. And create many, many models of it. ⁓ And, you know, we would photograph that and that would go into our portfolio. Totally. And then a couple of years later, then there were like, you know, computer programs where we could also demonstrate what our concepts were like, you know, based on the computer or that we could render with and create with the software. and that would also show and demonstrate ⁓ the level of complexity or our efficiency and familiarity, level of skill on that, on that software program. So again, like. leapfrogging a bit like this isn't that that isn't new to design school, architecture school, or interior design school. It didn't go to interior design school, but from architecture school, ⁓ we've always put forward conceptual work as kind of a vouch for our level of experience. We've also always made it clear there hasn't, we've been very transparent around that. I think maybe the difference or the distinction has come around you know, people who are coming into design, not necessarily from the academic channel, from an academic stream, because it's already baked into especially around the the the elements around academic integrity. Like it's just like, you know, 101 to be transparent around you know, how that idea was generated and executed or how that finished product was generated and executed. It's built into academic. integrity. Now for interior designers who are coming into the field or interior decorators who are coming into this from, you know, a different, you know, from a different path, they don't necessarily have that training or that awareness or that, you know, not even the the language to necessarily consider it a matter of integrity. But I think that's the conversation we need to have maybe at some of these like trade shows and design shows and you know in in the trade publication because there has to be a standard and the standard needs to be even if I mean even in the real estate industry they've passed a law. I think at least in New York, in New York our law was recently passed where if they're generating ⁓ you know any not even not a rendering but if they're like using AI generation for furniture layouts. Right, right, right. Real estate listings, they have to disclose that. Yes. Yes. You know, or if they're like completely like removing mold from a room where there's, you know, the the potential renter shows up, ⁓ the applicant shows up and there's mold in the corner. Like they have to say that. They have to disclose that. So I think that's I think it's as simple as that. It can be an ask asterisk, it can be you know, a footnote, but there has to be something ⁓ just to share that. I don't think it's that big of a deal. I don't think it's a huge turnoff. But if it if the potential client is not ⁓ accepting of that, then that's that's their right. And then that's not your client. That's fine. Not not everybody is is our client. but yeah, like when I'm hiring interns out of school, like that's what their whole entire portfolio consists of. And that's that's okay. That's a right. We have to start somewhere. We have to somewhere. And that's where they start when they're in school, for example. So Yeah. No, and I agree with that. I actually on other episodes I've talked about, I'm a big believer. I do have a Bachelor of Science in Interior Design, but I also believe in ⁓ everyone being able to achieve their dream and not go the academic route. And I don't think that that's I don't think that that's required. ⁓ I have, you know, have had Other designers on my team that don't have a technical background or academic trading. And I will invest in them and help them get those ⁓ tools and skills if I feel like they're the right fit for the company. So I'm a I am definitely somebody that's very supportive of like whatever entry you need. But I think that you really hit the nail on the head by saying, like, I just think that there's maybe a little bit of lack of ⁓ some of the ⁓ Just like typical expectations when you do come from that academic environment where we would all hear, hey, you need to just say that this is your portfolio or you need to say this or that. And I think baked in. Yeah. Yeah. I think you're absolutely right. I have never really processed that, but I do because I have seen like designers emerge into the market not from the academic lane and then they like pop a bunch of photorealistic renderings on their website and then they're not disclosing that. And I I think that that is tricky. And I do think that that's can be problematic. But I think you're right that the the vehicle for getting that would be educating the market in like the trade environment or where where wherever we are to be able to say like, hey, yeah, we should have some full disclosure on this. This should be, you know, yeah. People should know about this. And so ⁓ I like that. That's like brilliant. I hadn't I hadn't really like ⁓ pieced that together. So that That's as as we're talking, I'm piecing it together, by the way. So this is completely like, you know, building on what you're saying and Yeah, yeah. Well, it's interesting because your background, like you have an academic lane, but then you also like found yourself in interiors, not necessarily a architecture background, but you found your like lane through, you know, photography and then this and then that and styling and pillows. And so it's like the journey that got you to where you are wasn't necessarily your academic one. And so ⁓ exactly I think that that's like a really you have like both sides of that equation, which is great. Right. ⁓ I'm wired one way, but then I execute another I execute another way. I think similarly like my background, I am a first gen college student. No one in my family went to college. So like college was like a really big deal for me and my family. But I don't have like a lineage of academic background. So like my knowledge of business is like so, so limited. I feel like I was just like a baby and now have a business and I'm like, what are we doing? So yeah. Yeah, I I I can resonate with both sides of that, which is why I am somebody that like believes that there shouldn't be barriers to entry and if academics absolutely are the thing. I don't think that that's available to everyone. So you know, we should be able to welcome anyone that comes to the market. But what does it look like to like hold that market to a standard so that we can all be at the same playing field of I don't know, professionalism and execution and expecting us to all rise to that. So Right I love And then may you know maintaining maintaining the value of the service that we that we bring. ⁓ you know. within within the field. We don't want to like devalue the very thing that we're, you know, working hard at doing, even if we're coming from different angles, because otherwise then we're putting we're really putting ourselves out of business. ⁓ totally. I mean if we're really all in it together, then then I think it only stands to benefit us by maintaining a certain caliber based on integrity at a minimum. Yeah. I love that. Do you as a like sit random side, are there areas that you would never see yourself using AI in your business? ⁓ like are there areas that you would like hold tight and be like, it will never participate in this sphere? I think if I have like an actual project, an actual client, an actual room, I can't imagine meeting or wanting to use AI just to like come up with an idea. Like, so, you know, where should the, where should I put this sofa or what color should this wall be? Like for me, that's the fun part. That's the fun part. I can't ⁓ yeah, I can't see a ⁓ an instance in which I would use it to just, you know, to jog, to jog a cre, you know, the creativity component. ⁓ for me, again, it's like, when I look at a floor plan. I mean, I can I can walk into a room and I'm already like, yep, that's where that's gonna go. Totally. Totally. And if if the client, you know, sees it differently, or again, based on how they live and how what their daily root routine is, we might tweak some some things from there. Again, the same Boston project, it was almost a whole home design. And yeah, like the they have a three year old and they wanted a three year old to be able to put up her coats on her own. So then figuring out like precise measurements of the entryway besides would accommodate a three year old who can put her coats up and but then also you know making it a space that can grow with them. ⁓ those are all things that I enjoy. Those are all things that I enjoy. So yeah, I don't ever I don't see. But I would I would honestly love to be able to integrate more into that administrative the back end. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, hey, reach out, girl. I'm happy to like I know out of this out of this like conversation, I'd be happy to tell you all the things that have worked for me and like give you whatever strategies I can. ⁓ so definitely reach out after this and we can keep in touch and I can tell you more about it. but yeah, in my sphere on the business side, I will never have AI touch my books and like help with. The house. ⁓ right. ⁓ Claude did like at one point, Claude was like, connect QuickBooks to me and I can help you with bookkeeping. And I was like, that's a hard no. Like, we're we're not a human will be like looking at my books and paying my taxes for me. I feel like ⁓ I just am not comfortable with that. So although I heard, I think I I heard after this past tax season that like, I don't know if it's into it or IRS, but somebody has a deal with one of the AI agents now to like just do the thing. Yes. I don't know. So it must some people are true. I've heard designers be like, yeah, I'm gonna connect it. I'm like, that's not a human job I feel like replacing in my thing. Yeah. Yeah. I mean it helps with a lot of other things, but like not I for sure. I don't I just personally have too much angst and anxiety over the like financials of my business to like let yeah AI be the thing that I trust and rely on that one. So for sure it's never gonna touch. Yeah. The security issues are very real. I think within the past week there have been like two major hacks into systems or something. So You know, it's still it's still new. It's still new. Now, if we come back in another five years and have the same conversation, it might go a little bit differently. But for now. Yeah. Do you this is also random, but do you do you have I I know there's been lots of talks on I've seen on Instagram in the interiors world with AI specifically about the need to put in your contracts a provision that says that. P your clients cannot upload your work into ⁓ AI or a Claude or chat or any of that. Do you have thoughts about that? Or do you have something like that in your contracts? Or what are you throwing it out there? That's that's a good ⁓ question that hasn't actually come up for me. ⁓ but now that you mention it, I'm not opposed to doing that. I think contracts are meant to cover all of the puts, you know, the risks involved. ⁓ For both parties. ⁓ I'm actually gonna I'm actually gonna add that. ⁓ but I mean there's already something built in there to the extent of like I mean it that would almost be the same. There's already language ⁓ built in around like if they took a preliminary model and or or board design and took it to another designer. It's the same thing. Like you Yeah, I mean it's like IP protection, right? It's just maybe like an extension of your IP clause, which Probably most of us have that. If you don't know what that is, is intellectual property clause. So you know, I would think most of us have that in there to a degree. ⁓ I just haven't find I heard it and I was like, I don't know about that. And because for me, I'm kind of a pessimist by heart on and by nature because I'm I've just jaded about my life, I think. But I ⁓ was like I could put that in a contract, but a client's gonna do it anyways if they wanna do it. Like it's you know, and so or Right, like how would you know? How would I know? And then I guess the other question is like I get it if you don't want AI to be like accessing how we do things and like learning so that it can eventually maybe replace us, but at the same time To what degree can it already do that based on the fact that we have websites and social media that we're already displaying how we do things in? So I Yeah, exactly I have to sit with it. I'm still sitting with it. Cause I'm like, I don't know if that feels like that I don't I what I don't love in my and at least in my contracts is to sound like we're afraid of something. So if it's you know, I wanna I always wanna err on the side of like We're confident in what we do. So even if you put this in there, it's not gonna give you what you would get from us, you know. So exactly. And it's like we're service based. Like there's creativity and there's there are the ideas, but then there's also the service. So AI is most certainly not gonna give you the service. ⁓ it might give you it might it might at best spit out a a beautiful design, but then what? But then what they gonna do? You know, especially like if we're also man like have a project management component, which my business does, like that's tremendous. And for clients who are busy juggling life and everything else, like that pro that project management aspect is so valuable. Like that's what they're paying for. when they when they select that package. ⁓ and then also like going back to some of the technical ⁓ you know, constructs of of the contract. ⁓ you know, my payment schedule is based on a set of deliverables. So like let's just say that, you know, they I, you know, give them the first set and then they bug it into AI and then they decide they don't want to work with me anymore. Well, I still get paid for the work that's been done up to that point. So You know, that then means I don't, you know, we're not doing the refining and the services, which is also, you know, part of what I enjoy doing. ⁓ and unfortunately, but if I don't have to do the work for the if I'm not doing the work for the the latter set of deliverables, then then, you know, but I've been paid for what I have delivered, then that's just, you know, I guess we would both have to cut our losses. But so far my clients have been great. That hasn't come up. But I I'll think about whether it makes sense or how to to cover that. Yeah. I haven't landed one way or the other because I can see both sides of it. So I'm I'm just like wrestling. And I think it's fair to say that many of us are just like wrestling in the tension of where AI is at and how to use it, how to, you know, be respectful and transparent and all the things. So ⁓ I think this was just one example for me at least of like I'm sitting with it. I'm not sure. Where I'm at with it, you know? So Yeah. But like she said, that I the intellectual property piece, like it's it's part of that that same clause, but then where exactly or how exactly does it fit? But I think you nailed it with that. Yeah, I think it's I there is a lot in this moment, ⁓ around AI that I think is scary, overwhelming, and a little bit like fear based. And I guess to like sum up this conversation full circle, I think anyone that's in business, especially in a creative discipline that is like dabbling to like very opposed anywhere on the spectrum, ⁓ like we all just need to try to move forward in confidence instead of fear and know like there is no AI that can like do what you do, do what I do, that can have our taste preferences, experiences. And that it's okay to just like set aside the thought of like how scary it is and just be like, What am I doing today for myself? And ⁓ maybe try to like not let the the fear of 'cause I I just have seen it so much in the industry right now, all over, you know, Instagram and TikTok of like, ⁓ AI is this and you need to buy this and we need to do this and you need to take this course and it's just a lot right now. And so I think Yeah. To just like pause all of that and to just kind of be like, okay, well, it this moment's here. What does it mean for me? And to just like, I don't know, sit with it, I think is my encouragement to everyone, I guess, in this moment. So I don't know if that's helpful or not, but No, I think I think that's extremely helpful. And, you know, again, like zooming out in in terms of how just our you know, life experiences or principles impact how we show up or how we work, like in general, like not making fear based decisions. Like that's one of the mantras that I try to live by. And I think that is that has still a relevance in in the workspace in in particular in this moment. not yeah, not making those decisions like out of the fear of of the unknown. Yeah. No, that's great. Well, I think I mean that's that I feel like we've covered a lot and I had we had our outline and I like deviated in still be different ways. But I think this conversation's been so yes. ⁓ I think this conversation's been so beautiful and so fun to just like talk through this moment. And ⁓ I just really appreciate your willingness to like talk, share, ⁓ hear I like hear your stories and your experiences and I'll be curious to see like What the response is. So likewise. Now I wanna come to Hood River. I'm coming to visit. Yeah, come visit. Come visit. I'll come visit you. You I write you on the East Coast. I'll come out. Yeah, we we got it. We're dreamers. Don't care what other people say. We live it like this to be a fun day. We're dreaders.