Latest / Probation Behavior / 8 | Maura Murray: The Minutes That Changed Everything

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8 | Maura Murray: The Minutes That Changed Everything · Probation Behavior

0:23
You're listening to probation behavior.
0:28
We are puppies galore today. I know, doggy daycare over here.
0:33
Really, I had to bring Nemo because I had oh tippy tappy.
0:38
She might settle. That's OK, you guys don't mind
0:41
tippy tappies, do you? Tippy tappy, tippy tappies.
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OK. Well, Allie, how are you doing
0:50
today? I am good.
0:52
Nemo's sniffing the mic. I'm doing well.
0:55
I'm doing well. I am excited for summer.
1:00
I ordered some new bikinis. I hated them all.
1:02
Send them back. You know how it be.
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Or you don't because you're hot. And so are you.
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I you know what I don't get a lot though is bikini.
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Like I feel like I I wear the same ones for a long time before
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I buy a new one. I.
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They're fun, I love them, they're just so expensive.
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They are so expensive. I also just feel like I it's
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really hard to find bikinis that fit my top.
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My my knockers. I didn't say it.
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And I think like I go through phases where I think I can pull
1:40
off a certain like bikini of like, oh, this will not make me
1:44
uncomfortable to be in. And then I keep that bikini and
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it stays in the corner of my bin forever and I never touch it
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because I'm like, why would I think I could ever wear that?
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So I feel like I'm looking these days for it's like very like
1:59
almost 30s vibe like no, those are coming back.
2:04
Those are coming back. Oh my God, it's hasn't come back
2:07
for me yet. OK, I need some time.
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OK. To adjust a little behind with
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the. Fashion trend.
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Yeah, yeah, it still looks like a child to me, but I'm looking
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for like the mid rise. So it goes like over your belly
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button, sort of covers my like lower pouch stomach stomach, you
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know, I just feel like that's like very much like a 30s like
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vibe, you know? Yeah.
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And look, I, I wish I always buy bikinis and dresses and shirts
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and tops that I'm like, wow, cool version of Ally would
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totally wear this. And then I never end up wearing
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it because I always, I'm like, let's be comfy, you know?
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Yeah, I'm so sorry. I like blanked out for a little
2:52
bit there. And you didn't hear what I said?
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That's cool. I.
2:55
Isn't this podcast about listening?
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Well, we're the talkers, right? Yeah, but pretty sure you're
3:00
supposed to listen while I'm talking and I'm supposed to
3:02
listen while you're talking. But this is my episode so that.
3:04
Is your episode That's true? That's true.
3:09
OK, oh, I did want a quick say I.
3:12
Did want a quick say. Yes, I did want a quick say
3:16
quickly, very fast, rapid. Love Island is coming out.
3:24
I think it's June 2nd. Got to eat that shit up for
3:28
breakfast. Last summer, every single night
3:32
I. Right, yes.
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When After Sun was on and on Wednesdays when they don't have
3:38
episodes, I was pretty much depressed.
3:40
I was like, what am I going to do with my night?
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No, it I've never I've always watched Love Island, but I never
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watched it like that consistently every single night.
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I usually was like binging a season like after the fact.
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So I'm excited about that. I just wanted to say it in case
3:56
anybody else's and update on the Summer House saga.
4:02
I was just going to say what is the update?
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I have no clue. Well, the reunion is coming out
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in a few weeks. Part 1, there's going to be 3
4:09
parts of it. So the one part is is going to
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be the same day as premiere of Love Island.
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So what's a girl to do? I don't know.
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Wait, why would they do that to themselves?
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They're on different channels obviously, but.
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Yeah, but I don't know. I mean, I'm excited for all the
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content. Fair enough, I might watch the
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Summer House reunion having never seen Summer House.
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Do it. I did it with the scan ball
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situation with Vanderpump Rules, and then I went back and
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watched. Got into it, yeah.
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Didn't really like need fully need to watch it.
4:41
Can we talk about how obsessed I am with Ariana Maddox?
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Like I am clinically obsessed with her.
4:49
She is killing it. She is like the epitome of a bad
4:52
bitch who got out of a bad relationship, who struts into
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Love Island and looks unbelievable.
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Oh my gosh that leads me to this.
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Sierra Miller is going to be Co hosting After Sun.
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Shut the fuck up with Maura. No, I don't know.
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Maura's not doing After Sun Or did she just do it for the
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British? I can't.
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Remember, hold on, pause, Teffy Pesoa is what?
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Do you know who that is? Teffy I love teffy TikTok.
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I don't know who that is, but she's Co hosting with Sierra.
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Let me make sure I'm thinking of the same teffy teffy.
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She's like yes she's a tik toker.
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I've I've loved her from day one.
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She just like. It's hilarious for, like, Sierra
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is now, like, really following on the Ariana Maddox train
5:41
Exactly. Yeah.
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Like, they're both amazing. And I am.
5:44
So for those arcs, yeah, I'm really happy for them.
5:48
Me too. Well.
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Without further ado. Are we going to start every
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single? I said without further ado.
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Now you did, I think, is that going to become OK?
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People have said that as our podcast goes on, we will settle
6:04
more into our niche. Maybe we'll have like a little
6:06
outro, not like the outro music message, but like something that
6:10
we say at the end of every episode or something we say in
6:12
the beginning. Is this going to be our thing?
6:14
Without further ado, can we come up with something?
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Better I was I That's so. Like unoriginal.
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Lame. It's OK, We'll get there, guys.
6:22
Continue, Abigail. Thank you SO.
6:25
Without further ado. I was.
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I was going to say it again. Sorry, I'm done talking.
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But we both said it enough already, so I'm going to jump
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right in, obviously starting with a quote as we've been
6:39
doing. Maura was talented in everything
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she did, be it school work, straight A's, be it athletics,
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top notch and everything that she did.
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This quote comes from Fred Junior Murray, who is Maura's
6:56
brother. So who was Maura Murray?
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Mara Murray was born on May 4th, 1982 in Brockton, MA.
7:06
Shut up. That's where my dad was born.
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No way. And is from, Yeah.
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I figured you might be familiar. No, it's like right next to the
7:12
town that I grew up in. Won't say what town, but see,
7:15
I'm learning. But yeah, no, he grew up in
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Brockton. No way.
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Wait. OK, OK, this is ringing a bell,
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but I don't know what bell yet, so go.
7:24
OK, so the youngest daughter of Fred Murray, a medical
7:28
technician, and Laura Murray, a nurse, Mara grew up in Hanson,
7:34
though a small suburb on the South Shore of Massachusetts and
7:38
a working class family with siblings including her older
7:43
brother Fred Junior, and then sisters Kathleen and Julie.
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And then she had a younger brother, Curtis.
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Her parents divorced when she was six years old.
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So as I mentioned, she grew up in Massachusetts and originally
7:57
she attended West Point. Like her older sister Julie, she
8:01
kind of followed in her footsteps.
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She seemed to put a lot of pressure on herself trying to be
8:07
the best and was always perceived as, you know, just
8:11
really hard worker, smart and high achieving.
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So after a few mishaps at West Point, which I'll get into a
8:20
little bit later, she ended up transferring to UMass Amherst.
8:25
Incredible. Yes, I had a friend who went
8:28
there. OK, so that's just a little bit
8:31
of background on where she's at when this story takes place.
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Attending UMass as a student. She's also on the track team
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there. So Tuesday, February 10th, 2004,
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two calls were placed to the New Hampshire Police Department to
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report an accident. When the police arrived on scene
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of this car accident, the car was registered to a Fred Murray.
9:04
The address was still her mom's house.
9:09
Lori and obviously Fred and Laurie were no longer together,
9:14
but the police ended up at Laurie's house.
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The police arrive at Laurie's house and Laurie informs the
9:21
police that Fred, who was the owner of the car, gave the car
9:25
to their daughter Laura. So obviously, she knows that
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Maura was the one driving the car and starts making calls to
9:35
the rest of the family, trying to get answers of where Mara is.
9:39
No one could reach her, and it was extremely bizarre.
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I want to take a quick pause to just mention that Julie Murray,
9:50
Mara's older sister, has a podcast that details a lot of
9:56
this. And so I'm going to refer to a
9:58
few things from her podcast. It's called media Pressure and
10:03
she is still actively talking about this case and there's
10:07
things that are so detailed about this that you know, I
10:12
recommend everybody go listen to her podcast because it's really
10:16
good and obviously it's from first hand account of.
10:20
Yeah, that's super rare and I'm really interested in checking
10:24
that out. Yeah.
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So a lot of this does come from Julie's recalling of everything
10:32
that happened. So Kathleen, her Kathleen,
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Maura's other sister, ends up calling and getting a hold of
10:40
Fred, Maura's father and letting him know that Maura is missing
10:46
and her car was found crashed. It was suspected that around
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7:30 PM Maura crashed her black Saturn on a rural Rd. in
10:55
Haverhill, NH. Allie helped me with that
11:00
specific name because I did not know how how to pronounce it,
11:05
and it's definitely difficult. You're welcome.
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Our New England expert over here.
11:12
You're welcome. Can I get it once more?
11:16
And you're welcome. Wait, you're welcome.
11:20
That's from Awkward. Do you remember that TV show on
11:22
MTV? You're welcome.
11:24
You're welcome. I loved that show.
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I loved that show too. Maddie McKibben.
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Everything to me. Awoke me.
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Awkward. Yeah, OK.
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The police immediately recognized that the car had
11:42
damaged to the bumper and hood on the driver side.
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It was said to be a single car accident, so no other vehicle
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involved. And from what they could gather,
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she had ran into and hit a tree a few weeks prior.
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The car was actually having some issues, a cylinder blew a gasket
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and her dad told her that it was unsafe to drive so do not drive
12:06
the car. He actually ended up lending her
12:10
his car to borrow when she needed.
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So the question was, why was she even driving it right?
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Her dad told her not to drive it and she got in an accident with
12:23
it and she's nowhere to be seen. Another person that comes into
12:27
play here is Bill, who is her boyfriend at the time he's
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contacted, I believe, by Fred to see if he knows anything, to see
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if she's contacted him is, you know, does he know anything
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about her whereabouts? And that comes up short as he
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claims to know nothing and he didn't know that this happened.
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They probably thought like oh she would, you know, reach out,
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tell her boyfriend. And from what I understand he
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lives out of state so he is not in the area when this is all
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going down. The police also found alcohol in
13:01
her car. So they suspected ADUI
13:05
situation. She was a college kid, alcohol
13:09
in the car. They think she crashed it and
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then fled the scene to avoid getting in trouble by the
13:15
police. OK, this is all kind of adding
13:19
up, but it is very strange that she just wouldn't be in the car
13:24
or call 911 because they're going to find out who the car.
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Is registered to, right? Yeah, it did.
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And connect the dots. That's when things with this
13:32
case do. There's a lot of holes.
13:35
Yeah, and I also if somebody's like inebriated and and just
13:39
also probably have a concussion after, you know who knows, who
13:42
knows, They would just. Stumble away and both airbags
13:45
had been deployed as well. So also, just to preface, this
13:51
is taking place in the middle of winter.
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This is February in New Hampshire at night.
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So the thought of her, you know, leaving on foot is concerning
14:02
enough in those conditions. And it had just snowed.
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There was like 2 feet of fresh snow on the ground.
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Like there was a lot of snow. So again, her family's super
14:14
concerned and that's clearly valid.
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Her dad ends up going to the scene of where he was told the
14:21
crash was. This was, I think the following
14:24
day he got to New Hampshire and decided to go himself.
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He was told that she it was by this red barn and at that time
14:34
the car had been towed so it was no longer there.
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Her dad goes to the scene and he's looking for footprints or
14:43
any evidence of her having been there because again, there was
14:46
snow and he figured there would have been a trail of some sort
14:51
if she just walked away into the woods and he didn't see
14:55
anything. The police do end up bringing
14:58
the dogs in and they say that the dogs had her scent for about
15:04
100 feet and then they lost it. You have something to say.
15:10
That's crazy. There were no footprints, but
15:13
they had her scent for a bit. Like literally my brain is
15:16
thinking alien abduction. That's how could the scent and
15:20
then that's crazy. Yeah, well, some people
15:24
speculate that she got into another car, which we'll get
15:29
into more in a little bit. It was said by Julie that the
15:35
scent that the dogs were able to get from Maura was a pair of
15:40
gloves that were in the car. And her family, once they
15:44
figured out what was used to like catch her scent, was
15:48
concerned about it actually being her scent because these
15:53
gloves were new. They were like a gift that she
15:55
got for Christmas and they were in the car and according to her
16:00
family, they were like, I don't even think she's like worn them.
16:02
It almost seemed like they had just been in there and her dad
16:06
was on the scene as well. And I don't want to, I might be
16:11
wrong that the car was gone at this point.
16:13
I'm not entirely sure. So I just want to preface that.
16:16
But he was on the scene so they could have asked him like, you
16:20
know, is there anything that she like a sweatshirt or something
16:23
that was in the car? Because there was a lot of stuff
16:24
in the car or. Does it have to be something
16:28
that is right there? Can't they also, could they not
16:31
like go to her? I guess it's New Hampshire.
16:33
Like I'm just trying to think of like, wouldn't you want
16:35
something that has a stronger scent?
16:37
But I guess they need it quickly so it.
16:40
I guess, but there's again, so many other things in the car and
16:43
they picked these gloves, you know, I'm not saying that they
16:46
picked them and they're like, oh, these these look like she
16:48
never wore them. Like we're going to use these.
16:51
Exactly. So anyways, I think her family,
16:55
though was like, is that even really going to give us any
17:01
answers? So the family was also concerned
17:05
with lack of police action. We've seen this so many times
17:12
before. It sounds like they were really
17:14
stuck on the theory of college kid DUI, just trying not to get
17:21
in trouble, probably hiding out, laying low and is going to turn
17:26
up and her family again is like that's not her.
17:31
This wouldn't happen. They were hoping police would be
17:34
taking more action than they did at first.
17:38
They did include the New Hampshire Fish and Game
17:43
committee. I guess that started a search of
17:46
their own. I don't know exactly what they
17:49
are as an organization, but they were also conducting a search.
17:52
Do you have any idea? Yeah, it's fish and playing
17:56
games. Excuse me when I hear game, I
18:04
think Uno. I think.
18:06
Anyways, we don't have to go down that road.
18:09
I know I have nothing valuable to add.
18:11
Is that what you're asking? Yeah, No, nothing.
18:13
I thought you were going to be like, Oh yes, it's blah, blah,
18:15
blah, but that's OK. I Is it like the FDA of like
18:21
fish and animals? But like, you know what?
18:25
I mean like punching regulations like yes, I guess they.
18:28
Just know the area so they're well.
18:32
Yeah, it don't make sense. Yeah, they have to do probably a
18:34
lot of like maps and and stuff. OK, we don't.
18:39
We cut, Yeah. Cut.
18:44
So as I said, her dad was on the scene.
18:46
And soon enough, more of her loved ones, like her siblings
18:50
and friends, started to join the search.
18:54
The family noted again that the officers were off.
18:58
They were kind of a bit dismissive and they started
19:02
leaning on the idea that she was potentially suicidal.
19:08
And as we know so many times like it feels like they get, you
19:13
know, one lead or something that could lead a certain way or to
19:18
lead to some answer and they really stick with it versus
19:23
evaluating like so many other possibilities.
19:26
I know it's like important to obviously investigate, to try
19:30
and create a picture when you're trying to find somebody who's
19:32
missing. But also, at the end of the day,
19:35
does it really Like at the end of the day, you still need to
19:38
put all of your effort into finding them.
19:41
And I get it like they're they're, it provides a lot of
19:44
information, you know, when you know kind of the motive and, and
19:48
what's going on behind the scenes.
19:49
But sometimes I feel like they use it as a crutch.
19:53
They're like, oh, she's she's suicidal.
19:54
Oh, it's a DUI. Oh, she probably just wandered
19:56
off. She'll turn up to not look for
19:59
them. And I'm like, that doesn't
20:00
matter. She got into a car crash.
20:03
She could probably have a concussion no matter what, where
20:06
she is, who she's with, for what reason.
20:10
You need to be looking for her. Like it doesn't change that
20:12
fact. So that always throws me when
20:14
when they get tunnel vision and then somehow that ends up just
20:18
totally narrowing the case to something that isn't helpful.
20:22
Agreed, obviously her family is going through an unthinkable and
20:26
unfamiliar scenario like this is really scary for them.
20:30
Again, it's winter, nobody can get a hold of her and it's like
20:34
their worst nightmares coming true.
20:38
Bill, her boyfriend, shared a detail to police that he
20:44
received an odd voicemail when he was then on the way to help
20:49
with the search of Maura again. He's coming to New Hampshire
20:53
from wherever he lives. And I'm sorry, I don't know that
20:55
detail right now. He said that the voicemail was
20:59
extremely odd because it sounded like somebody was just, like,
21:03
kind of breathing. And then there was, yeah,
21:07
whimpering. Just those like whimpering
21:10
sounds, breathing and that was it.
21:13
The police are shown it, they hear it and they say that they
21:16
will track the call, but they're pretty convinced that it is
21:21
irrelevant because they are still believing that this is a
21:24
DUI. Flee the scene situation.
21:27
Again, how is it irrelevant? Everything is relevant at this
21:30
point. Everything is relevant because
21:32
you don't know. Exactly it.
21:35
Yeah, this case takes a lot of turns and is.
21:39
It going to inferior inferior. I think so the theories, again,
21:42
I really encourage everybody to listen to Julie Murray's podcast
21:47
because she knows more than anyone and shares a perspective
21:53
that is just obviously so unique and I can't imagine her
21:58
position. But like 22 years later, you
22:01
know. Madding family members.
22:03
Yes. So obviously, theory 1, the
22:08
police are leading with the suicidal thoughts and that she
22:13
was in a really bad place and they're starting to put that
22:16
together because they end up going to her dorm room.
22:20
She lived in a single dorm room. She had just moved into it like
22:23
12 days prior, so no roommate or anything.
22:26
And this is at UMass. They find an e-mail printed out
22:32
in her room from Bill, her boyfriend, where he's
22:36
apologizing to her for cheating on her.
22:39
So they think that she crashed walked into the woods and was
22:43
just like ready to let the elements like take her
22:47
essentially. Her family quickly debunks this
22:50
because her sister Julie says the note was super old, I think
22:54
like 2 years old and in a box with several other letters that
22:58
she saved. And she wasn't packing up her
23:00
room, she was unpacking. So they see her room getting The
23:04
police are under the impression she was packing things up.
23:08
She was. Oh my God.
23:10
Yeah, but she was actually in reality, just not fully unpacked
23:14
yet from just moving into this dorm 12 days earlier.
23:18
Oh my God. And I have to think too, you
23:21
know, they're finding this box of notes and picking one out
23:26
that seems to be convenient for their theory.
23:31
Like, I don't know. That is super strange to me.
23:34
As I mentioned, the family was pretty frustrated with police
23:38
action. Her father, Fred, kind of took
23:41
things in his own hands, and he went to some nearby neighbors of
23:46
where the crash happened. And he figured he would start
23:50
there and follow up after investigators only to find that
23:56
the investigators really didn't speak to a lot of the
23:59
surrounding neighbors. Yeah.
24:01
So the first person that Fred pays a visit to is Faith Weston.
24:07
She was the first call to police about the accident on that
24:12
night. So Faith reports that at 7:27
24:17
PM, she heard a crash and then looks out the window and saw the
24:22
car off the side of the road. And she noted that she noticed
24:26
the vehicle was facing in the wrong direction.
24:28
So whatever way it was going, it was basically turned around.
24:34
Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah, so she was going down the
24:37
wrong way. That's what it sounds like.
24:39
Or they're saying that the car would have had to do like a 180.
24:44
I don't know. Again, she was seeing this and
24:47
it was kind of dark. She says that she also saw a man
24:53
on the scene. This again, she didn't note
24:56
seeing Maura, she just saw a man.
24:59
The car and what she said looked like smoking a cigarette.
25:03
Faith's husband, who also had a look from the house once Faith
25:07
saw what happened, said that he saw what she described as a like
25:13
a cigarette burning as a red light.
25:16
I don't know whether he thought that was like a phone or
25:19
whatever, but he said she probably mistook it and it
25:23
wasn't actually a cigarette. Again, these are just little
25:26
details, but at this point, you know, Fred's just looking for
25:32
any answers to the other person that called the police was Butch
25:40
Atwood. Butch Atwood pulled up to the
25:46
car in his bus. He was a school bus driver, so
25:51
he was in the bus apparently had just dropped off.
25:54
I think some people that were going to ski, you know how
25:57
sometimes like they have like buses to take people like up to
26:02
the mountain and everything. What time is this again?
26:05
What time is this all happening? Like 7:30 at night.
26:09
Sorry, I keep picturing this at like 4:00 in the morning.
26:11
But it's, you know, it's so dark at this point, at this time of
26:15
year. Yeah.
26:16
So it is like, it feels like so late, you know, once it hits
26:19
like, 5:00 PM So anyways, Butch called the police at 7:42 to
26:26
report the accident. He says he was on his way home
26:30
and saw the driver, who he said was a young woman, and he pulled
26:35
over to see if she was OK. She was super shaken up.
26:39
He kind of noted that she was a little bit standoffish and he
26:43
said he didn't see any noticeable injuries.
26:46
Offered to call police and she declined, and she told him she
26:50
already called AAA. He knew that this was incorrect
26:54
because there's no signal at this spot since he lived in the
26:58
neighborhood. He claims that there's no way
27:02
she could have called AAA from here because there's no signal.
27:06
It's like a dead spot. So he drives home, which is like
27:10
right around the area and then calls police from his house.
27:15
He then states like he didn't see her anymore.
27:18
I don't know if he like went back to see but apparently he
27:22
didn't see her again. Fred has shown a picture of
27:25
Moore and he claims that is not the person that he saw and
27:29
obviously. 2 Freds. Oh my gosh.
27:32
Wait, sorry. OK, let me say this.
27:35
I said the wrong name. Oh no, that's that's totally
27:37
fine. I just want to make sure that
27:39
I'm not. I was like, whoa, I'm sorry,
27:42
wait a second. Fred doesn't know what his
27:43
daughter looks like. Thank God for you.
27:47
OK so Fred shows Butch a picture of Maura and what's a little off
27:55
is Butch misidentifies her and says that's not who he saw.
28:01
But then later he changes his story and said that it was her.
28:07
His story seems to change a lot in like small details.
28:11
Like in one of his statements he says he got out of the bus and
28:17
was talking to her and another he says he just opens the door.
28:20
Like, you know, things that don't.
28:23
They're little things, but the story changing is always a
28:28
tough. Yeah, I mean, eyewitness
28:30
accounts aren't notoriously unreliable, as we all know, but
28:37
I feel like it's unreliable in the sense of they don't totally
28:40
remember what someone looks like or what they totally saw, not
28:44
what they themselves did. That's super weird that he's
28:47
lying. Yeah, because he is, like,
28:49
lying. I don't like that.
28:52
I don't like it. So at this point Mara has been
28:56
missing for days and you have her dad following up with people
29:00
and not the police. From what it seems like again,
29:03
they are really set on this idea that she was depressed and just
29:12
somebody that had too much pressure on them and couldn't
29:15
take it anymore. Police shared that when they
29:17
searched Maura's room to collect her computer, they found that
29:22
she had been searching for directions to Vermont, I believe
29:26
to Stow, Vermont and also New Hampshire, and had called some
29:30
lodging places, sending emails and trying to like get
29:35
information about stays at these different places in Vermont, New
29:40
Hampshire. And they did find that there was
29:43
nothing ever booked. So she never actually ended up
29:46
booking anything, but she was looking into these things.
29:50
She also had sent out emails to her professors saying that she
29:55
had a death in the family and would be absent from classes for
29:58
the next few days, but this was not true at all.
30:02
Wait, OK, I have made-up lies before to get out of class.
30:08
I've used that excuse before. Imagine your friend after like
30:13
your friend dies and they get caught about lying like that.
30:17
No, but imagine, because I I often think about what you would
30:21
do for your friend if they were to ever get, you know, killed or
30:24
they were to die suddenly. All of that the things you would
30:26
do to like protect them, like, you know, maybe delete unsavory
30:31
photos or something like that before, like the family season,
30:33
all of that. You think about this often.
30:35
No, I always say often whenever I say I think about something,
30:39
the anxiety thing that we talked about in the last episode, I for
30:41
sure do think about often. I mean more so when you listen
30:45
to a lot of these cases, you think about, Oh my gosh, what if
30:48
police were searching my room? What if police were searching
30:51
your friends room? Like, and I've seen a lot of tik
30:54
Toks that are like what, what I would do for my friend, you
30:56
know, if I needed to hide some evidence or something like that.
30:59
But my only point in bringing this up is imagine getting
31:03
caught in a lie like that because you passed away.
31:05
Obviously nobody gives a fuck because they just want you home
31:09
or not pass away. And every, every like college
31:12
kid does that. Oh.
31:13
Totally so. But obviously with the events
31:17
that followed, like it's a little suspicious and strange.
31:21
So another thing Maura worked on campus and she had kind of like
31:27
AI don't know if it was like not an RA, but she would like check
31:31
students ID's when they would come into the dorm room.
31:34
So kind of like a security officer type of position, super
31:39
like cushy position. She kind of just would sit at
31:41
the desk like do her homework, you know, make sure everybody
31:45
who's there is supposed to be there.
31:47
And also, mind you, this is like 3, I think, what, three years,
31:53
four years after 911. So security is kind of also
31:58
becoming a bigger thing. Just wanted to throw that out
32:02
there. Just kind of like time and place
32:04
of where we're at in this country.
32:06
So February 6th, 5th. February 6th.
32:16
I start losing all like ability to speak at this time of day.
32:19
No, I understand. OK, so February 6th, I'm so
32:29
sorry. Wait, hold on, let me let me
32:30
check something. For our listeners, just a little
32:33
insight, we film on Mondays at like anywhere between like 7:00
32:39
and 10:00 PM. So you're catching us at A at a
32:42
time, that's for sure. Back to you, Abigail, as you
32:45
have now composed yourself. Take it away, OK?
32:49
Without further ado. Without further ado, on February
32:53
6th, which is four days before the accident, Maura has a shift
33:00
at her security job in one of the dorms and her supervisor
33:07
named Karen May was called. I'm not sure by who, but
33:11
reporting that Maura was super upset after receiving a phone
33:15
call from her sister Kathleen. And we find out later that this
33:20
phone call happened around 10:00 PM and Kathleen was letting
33:25
Maura know that she relapsed. And I guess Kathleen's boyfriend
33:30
like was driving her to a liquor store or something or like she
33:34
was in the car with him. And so it was like a super
33:37
upsetting situation. But again, this was at 10:00 PM.
33:43
Karen was called around 3 hours later.
33:48
And so the time difference between the phone call that was
33:52
upsetting her and then when she apparently was just really
33:56
emotional was three hours. And Karen says she was
34:01
inconsolable. Like she could not get her to
34:03
calm down. She was a mess.
34:05
And all she could make out that she was saying was like my
34:08
sister, my sister. And there was one other phone
34:14
call that Mara had in those in between those three hours
34:18
between the phone call with Kathleen and then her
34:22
supervisor, Karen, coming to see what was going on.
34:25
She called her boyfriend at the time.
34:28
And not sure what the conversation was about, but just
34:34
noting that because there is that big chunk of time, you
34:38
know, maybe people process things differently.
34:40
So I don't know, it seemed to have something to do with it
34:44
because of what she was saying, that it was about her sister.
34:48
But obviously nobody's really sure.
34:53
So Karen, her supervisor, offered to stay with her, but
34:59
Moore told her it's OK. Like, I have a roommate that's
35:02
going to be there. But this was a lie because Maura
35:06
was living in a single dorm. Why does she keep lying?
35:11
I don't know. That's so.
35:14
The following night takes us to February 7th.
35:17
Maura and her friend Kate go to a dorm party.
35:22
On the podcast Media Pressure, hosted by Julie.
35:25
She says that Kate, who is Mara's friend, discussed the
35:30
party just being super chill. Probably at most like 7 people
35:34
there. Like I'm picturing like one of
35:36
those little pregame just hang out like a bottle of vodka in
35:41
the middle. And yes, you're like, you're
35:43
going to a social or something like that and you're like on a
35:45
blind date or whatever. Oh my gosh, it's bringing back a
35:48
lot. No, literally.
35:50
And everything's awkward and you're trying to get, you're
35:52
getting set up. So again, like normal college
35:55
situation, probably something that we've all experienced just
36:00
being in a dorm with a few people, not really like a party,
36:04
but maybe a kickback, maybe we'll say that.
36:07
A kickback. So the party was Party in
36:11
parentheses was hosted by a girl named Sarah.
36:16
Following everything that happened, Sarah has declined to
36:21
ever talk about anything relating to Maura.
36:26
Think she's been, you know, sought out to be interviewed
36:30
over the years because she was one of the last people to, like,
36:34
be around her. So, you know, they're trying to
36:37
piece together anything. Did this party have any
36:40
significance? But Kate, who was Mara's friend
36:43
and at the party, said nothing happened.
36:45
Like, there wasn't any fight. There wasn't anything that
36:48
happened. They were literally just hanging
36:49
out. And she also said that Maura
36:54
mentioned wanting to get her dad's car back to him.
36:57
I think at this point, it was around 1:30 in the morning where
37:00
she's saying she wants to return her dad's car to him.
37:04
Her dad is staying in a hotel nearby because as I mentioned
37:08
before, her actual car has a blown gasket.
37:12
He doesn't want her driving it. So he's actually in town to go
37:16
car shopping with her the next day.
37:18
Because it was kind of at that point where it's like, let's not
37:20
put money into this thing. Let's just get a new one.
37:23
So her dad is in town. She tells Kate she wants to give
37:27
her dad's car back. Two hours pass.
37:32
We are now at technically Sunday, February 8th, 3:30 AM.
37:37
So two hours after she had that conversation with Kate at 3:30,
37:42
Maura crashed her dad's new car into a guardrail.
37:47
And obviously she was borrowing his car because of the issues.
37:50
And when she is found or, you know, the police arrive on
37:57
scene, there's no evidence of a DUI.
38:00
She's not even breathalyzed. Like, she's not drunk.
38:03
And they did confirm that, like, she wasn't inebriated or
38:07
anything. They said that they chalked it
38:10
up to her sliding on some debris in the road and being like,
38:13
distracted. Maura seemed to carry a lot of
38:16
shame with this, like, she felt awful.
38:18
And that she did this especially in her dad's car.
38:22
And it ended up their insurance covered a lot of it.
38:26
So her dad was like, you know what, It's not the biggest deal.
38:29
Like, it's OK. But she was being really hard on
38:31
herself about it. I do want to quick mention that
38:36
one theory comes up and I don't know how much traction this has,
38:40
but there is the boyfriend theory of course.
38:45
Bill. On Media Pressures podcast, Bill
38:49
is interviewed by Julie, her sister, and he said that he
38:54
barely knew Sarah and Kate. However, in phone records it
38:59
shows that Bill had called both Kate and Sarah like multiple
39:03
times but he says that he like doesn't know why he was calling
39:07
them. Little weird I don't know.
39:12
Like multiple times over the course of like?
39:15
Or is the night that Maura went like what?
39:18
I'm confused. Not I don't, not the night that
39:20
she went missing. I don't know if it was the night
39:22
that they were all together. I'm honestly not sure about
39:25
that. Might want to go check out that
39:27
episode on Julie's podcast. I'm not entirely sure.
39:32
But either way, like, if you have somebody you know, if
39:34
you're calling them, you know them to some degree, right?
39:39
So February 9th, Moore had emailed Bill.
39:43
And this is again, the day after wrecking her dad's car.
39:47
February 9th, she emailed him and basically told him she
39:51
didn't want to talk to anybody and she would just talk to him
39:54
later. Love you.
39:55
Like, pretty simple, clearly kind of just wanting to be
39:59
alone. Like, I get it.
40:00
Like she's feeling a lot of shame for what happened.
40:06
But just want to know, Bill has never been considered a suspect
40:09
in this case. It's just one of those theories
40:11
that gets thrown out there. And I'm sure there's so much
40:16
more about that. I think that there is, like I've
40:17
seen a lot of Reddit threads that go into, there's those
40:21
people that believe his involvement.
40:23
But I didn't want to go too far into all these theories because
40:27
it's really snowballs quickly and it's just too much to.
40:30
Cover some crazy theories on Reddit and or TikTok and
40:34
whatever it may be. Yeah, it's a lot to almost like
40:41
defame somebody. For a theory, you know I don't.
40:45
Know like I get it this is this is what like we're doing it's
40:48
speculation, it's talking about it, it's talking about theories,
40:50
but it's also somebody's life so if he was never considered a
40:54
suspect then. Yeah.
40:57
It's good to know. So another theory that comes out
41:02
of this is I'm going to call it like the police theory.
41:06
I don't think I mentioned their names yet, but the officer,
41:10
responding officer was Sergeant Cecil Smith.
41:15
That's like, what is that alliteration?
41:19
OK, so he is the responding officer the night of the crash,
41:23
the second crash where Morig is missing.
41:27
And another officer that I want to mention is Chief Williams.
41:31
So the police chief of the time, I'm going to talk about a woman
41:36
named Karen. I'm not going to include her
41:39
last name, but there was another person that saw the crash site
41:44
that night. Her name was Karen.
41:46
She drove by and which according to location tagging like after
41:50
the fact, after they looked into it, it showed that Karen had
41:53
passed the crash after 911 had already been called by both
41:59
those two previous calls that were made.
42:01
So time wise, the police were to be on the way.
42:06
She claimed that when she drove by, Mara's car was like nose to
42:11
nose with a police SUV. And she noted that on the car
42:19
it's or the SUV it said SUV 001. And I don't know how this works.
42:25
I don't know if it's like something every police car has,
42:29
but SUV 001 belonged to Chief Williams, but he wasn't working
42:35
that night. He wasn't on duty, so he was not
42:38
there. Sergeant Smith said that he was
42:43
driving the chief's car that evening.
42:45
However, earlier that evening, Smith had pulled over somebody
42:50
else. I actually think he pulled over
42:51
two other people for like ticketing and they were
42:55
questioned about this and they said that he was driving a sedan
42:59
like he wasn't in this SUV. So just weird, like weird stuff.
43:05
So I think the question here is like, OK, were was that just
43:10
like a first responder on site or was that car there before
43:15
first responders arrived? Like super strange.
43:19
It was also reported that SUV 001 and there is so much about
43:25
this SUV 001 like on Reddit and everything.
43:29
Like I think this is a theory that people are like really
43:32
interested in. There was reports that that SUV
43:37
was actually in a ditch that night and had to be like taken
43:42
out of this ditch because a police officer, specifically the
43:47
police chief, Chief Williams was driving impaired.
43:52
He actually ends up later getting arrested for drunk
43:56
driving by no other than Sergeant Cecil Smith.
44:01
Interesting, right? Weird politics.
44:03
Yeah. So, you know, the chief has
44:08
history with driving impaired and I'm not sure if they're
44:13
saying he drove the car into a ditch and I don't know again,
44:18
like. Nose to nose.
44:19
I don't know, I'm I'm just trying to go back to the scene
44:25
of more like what could that even remotely mean?
44:29
Like that he crashed into more and they're trying to cover it
44:32
up. I don't think, I don't know if
44:34
that's what they're saying. I think they are like believing
44:38
that, you know, there's a possibility Sergeant Smith ended
44:41
up like switching into that car. But that would be, I don't know,
44:45
I can't go too far down this because it kind of makes you
44:49
spiral a little bit. So I want to go back to the car.
44:55
The car was eventually towed to this mechanic's place and it was
44:59
like a really like, it wasn't like some big facility, like it
45:02
was like a just random mechanics garage.
45:06
And Fred or his dad and Bill, her boyfriend, go to the garage
45:11
that the car was towed to. And this is the first time
45:14
they're seeing the car in New Hampshire.
45:17
I think. I just want to correct myself
45:19
from earlier if I messed that up.
45:20
But when they see the car, they immediately are like thinking
45:26
what they were told by police doesn't entirely make sense with
45:29
like what the damage to the car is.
45:33
They're starting to think like, you know, was the crash like a
45:37
decoy? Like it was just, you know, odd
45:41
all around. And her dad actually went to
45:45
start the car to see because I think obviously was having some
45:49
issues. And he was like, OK, maybe she,
45:51
like, couldn't start the car. Like that's why she maybe walked
45:54
away. But he started the car and it
45:56
started like, immediately, no issues.
45:59
So he was thinking like, why wouldn't she have just drove
46:01
away if she was fleeing the scene?
46:03
Like, why leave the car there to leave any evidence of a crash,
46:08
obviously knowing that it would somehow get back to you, right?
46:12
Yeah, makes no sense. So another thing that was in the
46:15
car was like handwritten at this time it makes sense like
46:18
handwritten directions to Burlington, Vt.
46:22
So Yep. Yeah, know it well.
46:25
Yes, there was also an alcohol. There was also a receipt for
46:32
alcohol that she had purchased. I think she had purchased it
46:35
around like 3:30 PM that day or something.
46:38
There was also video footage of her going to an ATM at one point
46:45
and that clip is often reviewed. I know Julie has a TikTok that
46:51
she was like kind of breaking down some of the things that she
46:53
noticed. So again, check it out.
46:57
But there were just a few different things in the car that
47:00
weren't like super alarming because it's just a college kid,
47:04
like obviously the alcohol, but they they noticed some like
47:09
splatter. And I don't know if they think
47:10
it was like a drink that spilled, like indicating she had
47:14
been drinking and driving and like when she, you know,
47:17
crashed, like spilled the drink. A lot of speculation.
47:22
One of the other things that gets brought up a lot with this
47:26
case is the phrase rag and tailpipe.
47:31
Now what exactly? So I told you earlier how Fred
47:36
told Maura like, don't drive the car.
47:39
It's not really safe, but if you were to need to use it in a case
47:44
of an emergency, he directed her to put a rag in the tailpipe to
47:52
avoid, like, letting smoke billow out.
47:56
And I think the thought here is, so there was like, a rag in the
48:01
tailpipe when her car was found. And I think they were thinking
48:07
she probably did that so police wouldn't come to try and hide
48:12
the smoke from showing the crash or anything like that.
48:16
I don't know. Another thing that's just like,
48:22
you know, kind of a head scratcher.
48:24
But that was the case. There was like a rag in there.
48:29
So one thing that is noted by Moore's family is the police's
48:37
lack of resources and their opinion that they were just
48:40
like, weighing over their heads with this case.
48:43
There was even a man named very basic name here, John Smith.
48:51
No, yes, that's his real name. Real name?
48:54
Yeah, not an alias here. Brothers with Cecil.
48:58
No, no. But this guy, John Smith,
49:04
actually left a message to the Murray's saying that he was a
49:09
former law enforcement worker and a local to the area where
49:14
the crash was and might be able to help.
49:17
Like he genuinely just was like, you know, wanted to help the
49:21
family, thought he could be of help since he knows the area and
49:25
was in law enforcement and has some connections and everything
49:28
like that. Obviously, these rumors start to
49:31
swirl. People start talking about these
49:33
different theories like it's happening in real time.
49:36
I will be really upset if you tell me that they never found
49:39
her or her body. So just going to put that out
49:43
there. Continue.
49:46
She's making a weird face right now, so I don't really know.
49:48
It's because I'm. Like losing my, like, train of
49:52
thought. Oh, OK.
49:52
So no, no, it's OK. It's it's just me, John Smith.
49:57
I just feel like his name is fake, but it's not.
50:01
The New Hampshire State Police end up getting wind of John
50:06
Smith and his reaching out to the family, wanting to help them
50:10
with this. The New Hampshire State Police
50:13
pay a visit to him at his work, wanting to know why he wants to
50:18
help. And, you know, he kind of
50:20
explains his reasoning. Just like I think I could be
50:24
helpful and like, this family needs answers.
50:26
And you just seem to be like a good guy that wanted to help
50:30
out. And the police actually
50:33
threatened to arrest him if he continued to try and help with
50:39
the family and solving this case.
50:42
Yeah, this is straight from John.
50:45
John telling this that this happened with the police and
50:50
they were super threatened by the whole situation.
50:56
He found it to be super off putting.
50:58
And you know, at first he did take the threat seriously.
51:02
So he decided to like, stop looking into it because he was
51:07
like, threatened by the police. What could they arrest him for?
51:11
I have no idea, but he did end up coming to the realization
51:15
that like, you know, I want to help this family.
51:18
They deserve to have answers. So he said screw it and continue
51:22
to help them anyways and he was never arrested because again,
51:25
like what would they arrest? Him for I don't, I don't know,
51:27
like obstruction of justice, but like the opposite because he's
51:31
doing the opposite he's trying to help so I.
51:33
Don't know. I know too that the family also
51:36
was like pleading with the Police Department to involve the
51:40
FBI and they just like, refused. Yeah, because police departments
51:43
have to give approval for the FBI to come in.
51:46
So God that would drive me insane.
51:50
Yeah, and they wouldn't do it. So John Smith has actually been
51:56
working alongside the family for about 20 years.
51:58
Like taking us to present day. What a gym.
52:02
So unfortunately, where we are today is we don't really have
52:09
any clear answers. There are so many theories and I
52:13
really didn't go in depth with any of them in particular
52:17
because it's just a lot and because of the investment that
52:24
her sister has in this still and is actively speaking on it.
52:27
Like I think that's the best source to go to for all of this.
52:29
Obviously, I know too, that Julie was actually on, I believe
52:34
it was NBC being interviewed recently because she was talking
52:40
about just what it's like to be a part of a family where there
52:46
is a cold case and just how that feels and all the questions that
52:51
get brought up and just the pain of it.
52:54
And she was on talking about it because of the Nancy Guthrie
52:57
case. They were interviewing her
52:59
because of her familiarity with a situation like this.
53:03
So I thought that that was really interesting too, and.
53:08
What does Julie think? She just like, invested in all
53:13
the theories, I'm guessing. Like I leave no stone unturned.
53:16
Yeah, I haven't listened to like all her stuff about it.
53:19
I do know that she also in her podcast is now like in covering
53:24
other missing person cases and she.
53:27
Sounds amazing. Yeah, and she definitely, like
53:31
wants to keep it in front of everybody.
53:34
And she's posting on TikTok a lot.
53:37
So that brings us to where we are at today.
53:40
Like I said, not really many answers.
53:43
But Julie also mentioned recently in one of her podcasts
53:50
that they do have API working with them now.
53:54
And it sounds like they're getting a lot of tips, hopefully
53:56
some answers coming from it. Well, OK, Mike, sorry not to
54:01
jump in here. The search for her in general,
54:06
like I'm assuming their primary search is going to be looking
54:09
for a body that probably hypothermia froze to death.
54:13
But The thing is you go back to the dogs and not and losing her
54:17
scent and the fact the fact that most likely there would have
54:24
been tracks of. All that totally weird, but like
54:30
my question is how much land? I know so many people go missing
54:34
and like their body is never found.
54:37
There was another case where a kid was literally on the phone
54:40
with his parents and he said oh shit he had gotten like lost and
54:44
he had like oh shit and they never found his body.
54:47
He was like in the woods he got lost or something.
54:49
Oh my God. But I guess where I'm going with
54:52
this is how much surface area did they have to cover?
54:56
Like how big was the actual search?
54:59
It always just amazes me, like how let's go with the theory
55:03
that she just just the theory that she wandered away.
55:06
OK, take away all the unknowns and mysteries of all of it.
55:10
How far could she actually have gotten to where they can't at
55:15
least establish a perimeter and somehow look for her and I the
55:18
snow also is tough because then, you know, she could hurt.
55:21
She could be hidden underneath the snow and all of that.
55:23
But eventually, I mean, it's been how many years and there's
55:26
still no remains were found or or people who disappear but then
55:32
are alive like they pop up. They don't disappear for this
55:35
long like they are inevitably found.
55:38
It just I can't understand. I can understand the mystery of
55:44
it all. I can't understand when we can't
55:46
find a body of remains that always just like really like to
55:50
not all of this mystery is so horrible.
55:54
There's never closure. We've talked about this so many
55:58
times already but like to not at least know where she is.
56:05
Like where she is. I don't know, it just it just
56:08
amazes me that we can't find her.
56:10
I mean, it's like the same thing with Nancy Guthrie, which is why
56:13
I think like Julie Murray talking about it probably just
56:17
like for I don't know, I don't obviously can't speak for the
56:23
family or any of them that's going through that.
56:25
But like I have to think that's obviously such like a specific
56:29
scenario to encounter in life and like her talking about it
56:34
and just like relating to what that family is going through
56:36
again, like they don't it hasn't even I don't know how many
56:39
months it's been with that now, but like 20 plus years now of
56:43
like not knowing. I can't imagine.
56:46
And yeah, it just like even us just like talking about it.
56:50
We're like keeps you up at night.
56:51
But like, I just can't imagine. I can't remember if I talked
56:54
about this, but I, I have a friend who has had like grief
57:01
counseling training. Have we talked, have I talked
57:03
about this? I feel like I tell everybody
57:05
that I know, but I think it's really interesting when when
57:09
somebody loses somebody in any way, shape or form, like and you
57:13
go back to work or something like that, people think that,
57:15
oh, let's just, it's the elephant in the room.
57:18
Let's just not talk about it, right?
57:20
And they just get back into work and everything is normal again.
57:23
But my friend told me that what she learned in grief counseling
57:27
is that more times than not, all they want to do is talk about
57:32
them because they go through their days like, Oh my gosh,
57:36
everybody is just moving on and I can't like there's a hole in
57:40
my heart right now. And instead, like, just I think
57:44
what what my friend taught me was that asking them to talk to
57:48
you about this person. Tell, tell me about this person.
57:52
I actually like put that into action with like one of my
57:55
friends who then lost somebody as well.
57:58
And it was one of the most like beautiful interactions because
58:03
we just talked and laughed and shared memories of this person.
58:06
Again, I had never met this person.
58:08
So I'm just hearing kind of secondhand who this person was,
58:11
but it was like so incredible to just hear about this person and
58:15
I if it seemed like it was very cathartic for her too.
58:18
So the friend that taught me all of this about grief counseling,
58:21
I think if there's anything that I would share is simply
58:25
sometimes all they want to do is talk about the person.
58:28
So ask them. Keep them alive.
58:30
Keep their memory alive, you know?
58:32
That's really well said and I, I agree 100%.
58:35
I feel like yeah, it's the only way for their memories to live
58:40
on is through those who who knew them and miss them every day.
58:48
So yeah, this is definitely a super interesting case.
58:54
And like I said, there is a lot of content on it, a lot of
58:57
threads, a lot of opinions, a lot of theories.
59:01
I honestly don't know if I've, like, fully formed an opinion of
59:04
my own of like, what I think because it's kind of all over
59:08
the place. And again, yes, like, you think
59:10
about how big the area is of how far she could have went, but
59:14
because of the conditions and the cold, like, they had to
59:19
think that, like, she wouldn't have made it that far.
59:23
And after all these years, like, nothing.
59:25
I don't know, Yeah. It's crazy.
59:28
And then you think about like, I don't know, I could spiral
59:30
because then you think about like the lodging and like
59:33
looking and all that. Yes.
59:35
So everything is a clue, truly. And like the accident the day
59:38
before, like, I don't know. Yeah, I'm really looking forward
59:43
to listening to Julie's podcast and hearing everything about
59:46
that. Truly, what an incredible
59:48
sister. It's funny, I'd heard the name.
59:51
The name was very familiar to me.
59:53
And when you said Brockton, I was like, this is ringing a
59:55
bell. Yeah.
59:56
But I really didn't know anything about this at all,
59:59
which is, like, kind of incredible to me.
1:00:01
Curious to see all those different theories, too.
1:00:04
So. OK, I think that wraps up our
1:00:08
episode. Next time we talk, it will be in
1:00:11
June, June 2026. Crazy.
1:00:15
Oh my. Gosh, I kind of thought you were
1:00:17
joking, but it's no, it's true. No, seriously, time's going by
1:00:20
quick summer. Summer will go by quickly.
1:00:24
Thank you so much, Abby for telling that story and we will
1:00:29
talk soon guys. Bye guys.
1:00:31
Thanks for listening and we will see you next time.
1:00:35
See you next time. You will hear us.
1:00:37
We will hear you. Nope.
1:00:39
No, you will hear. US next time, bye.
1:00:44
That can be our Altro. That's it for today's episode.
1:00:51
Thank you for listening. If you're loving the show or
1:00:54
hating it, make sure to follow us on Spotify and our social
1:00:56
media. And if you want even more
1:00:58
content, you can join us over on Patreon at Probation Behavior.
1:01:02
New episodes are released every Thursday.
1:01:05
Thank you. Time and place, Time and place.
1:01:13
Do you know what that's referring to?
1:01:14
No Tati and James Charles, they're feud.
1:01:17
Oh my gosh, I always, I am. I was so there for that entire
1:01:22
saga. But like I it's on my for you
1:01:24
page. I keep like I keep.
1:01:26
Saying it's like. It was at my birthday dinner.
1:01:30
When you said time and place, I was like, yeah, hilarious, but
1:01:33
not. Good call out.
1:01:34
Yes, sorry you. We know when we interject in the
1:01:39
middle of these things it's never try and detract.
1:01:42
So apologies. Please continue cutting that
1:01:45
out. Yeah, please do.
1:01:47
This is going to be. This is going to be choppy.
1:01:51
The last one was super fucker choppy so.