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The Real Jason Bourne · Conspiracy! The Show

• 0:10
  Speaker 1: Win True Insurance goad.
• 0:11
  Speaker 2: I'm true this troth.
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: I'm a check cout with insurance good actrue than is.
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  Speaker 3: Hey, everybody, welcome to Conspiracy the Show. I'm your host,
• 0:35
  Speaker 3: Adam Todd Brown joining me as co host this week,
• 0:38
  Speaker 3: my favorite co host of all no co host, but
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  Speaker 3: I do have a returning guest, author of the book
• 0:45
  Speaker 3: Mind Games, the Assassination of John Lennon, David Wheeland's here.
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  Speaker 3: How's it going, man.
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  Speaker 2: Hey, Adam, how you doing. Nice to see you.
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  Speaker 3: I am doing great, and I am very excited to
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  Speaker 3: talk about what we are talking about today, which, in
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  Speaker 3: a nutshell is the assassination of Democrat Congressman Allard Lowenstein
• 1:05
  Speaker 3: wasn't a congressman at the time.
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  Speaker 2: But that's right. Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: Always fascinated when a conspiracy crosses my desk that I
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  Speaker 3: have never heard of, and I had no prior knowledge
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  Speaker 3: of this at all. How did this land on your radar?
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  Speaker 2: Good question? After my Lenin assassination main investigation book was done,
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  Speaker 2: I've been writing a lot of subsequent substack articles about
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: about the case. New information keep coming on board, and
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  Speaker 2: it's been an ever evolving thing, never ending thing. Four
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  Speaker 2: years now. Looking forward to doing something else in to
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  Speaker 2: be honest, but I decided to look into whether there
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: were any other mk ultra esque Manchurian Candida esque assassinations
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: around the time of Lenin. We all know about the
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: famous sixties groupings. You know, it's definitely a line between JFKRFKMLK,
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  Speaker 2: no question about that. Malcolm X as well put him
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  Speaker 2: in there at Hampton, all happening around that time. Yeah,
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  Speaker 2: of sort of five six years. But what about nineteen eighty,
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  Speaker 2: So I thought, we know about Reagan? That was a
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  Speaker 2: little bit later. You know, it's similar, a lot of
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  Speaker 2: similarities at Hinckley, very similar, Yeah, disturbingly similar. But I
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  Speaker 2: knew about Hinckley and I sort of added a bit
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  Speaker 2: about him in my book. But I just thought, is
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  Speaker 2: this someone else that I missed? And then I came
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  Speaker 2: across Alad Lowenstein, who was, as you say, used to
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  Speaker 2: be a congressman, a Democrat guy, quite a heavyweight political guy,
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  Speaker 2: did a lot of stuff at the un been around
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  Speaker 2: politics all his life. Very smart guy. But by the
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  Speaker 2: time he was assassinated in March nineteen eighty, he was
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  Speaker 2: working for Ted Kennedy and he was very much into
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  Speaker 2: gay rights and sort of gay affairs. He was kind
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: of a guy that'd in the closet most of his life,
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: got married, didn't Elton John then realize this, it's not
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  Speaker 2: for me, and then, you know, near the end of
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  Speaker 2: his life, tragically he started to find himself and was
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: quite openly dating men, and you know, he could have
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  Speaker 2: been a trailblazer actually for the gay rights movement. Sadly
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: that wasn't meant to be. But what happened was some
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  Speaker 2: one he knew called Dennis Sweeney, a guy that he
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: was kind of mentoring at Stanford, just walked into his
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  Speaker 2: office on March fourteenth, nineteen eighty at the Rockefeller Plaza
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  Speaker 2: and shot him. Police turned up arrested him. It seems
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  Speaker 2: a bit like the Mark Chapman thing with Lennon, just
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  Speaker 2: an open and shutcase kind of thing. I thought, Okay,
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  Speaker 2: I'll start looking into it because it's a famous guy
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: got shot near the time. A bit strange that a
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  Speaker 2: guy just walks into his office.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, there are a lot of similarities to the John
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  Speaker 3: Lennon assassination, especially the part where he just sits and
• 3:33
  Speaker 3: waits for the police to show up. Yeah, that's unusual.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's there's lots of similarities. There's that he turns
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  Speaker 2: up very cold and sort of calculated and very calm
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  Speaker 2: asks for this meeting books It walks into Aled's office,
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  Speaker 2: shuts the door, and apparently fifteen minutes later, Alared's secretary
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  Speaker 2: hears two pops. He says, oh, pops, they weren't They
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: weren't gunshots, or at least she didn't think they were.
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  Speaker 2: And then she heard five gunshots. Now he did have
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: a sudden apparently had a seven bullet gun. But she
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  Speaker 2: thought the two pops came from this infamous telephone installer
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  Speaker 2: who was working in the office at the time. Now,
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  Speaker 2: the fact that she thought the two pops came from
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  Speaker 2: the telephone installer's staple gun within Aled's office means that
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  Speaker 2: she probably thought that the telephone installer could be in
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: there at the same time because he was obviously working
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  Speaker 2: around the office at the time. So that's kind of strange.
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  Speaker 2: When she ran in to see what was going on,
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  Speaker 2: Dennis Sweeney walked out, sat down, put his gun on
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  Speaker 2: the table, and got out a Winston cigarette and started
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  Speaker 2: smoking in a very calm fashion. Now, Aled Lowenstein's secretary
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  Speaker 2: knew that Alan Lowenstein knew Dennis Sweeney for a long
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  Speaker 2: time because they were constantly crossing paths throughout their lives.
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  Speaker 2: And Alan Lowenstein's secretary was very close to Alan throughout
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  Speaker 2: his life, so she knew all about Dennis Sweeney. But
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  Speaker 2: when she went in to the office, Alan Lowenstein was
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  Speaker 2: lying down on his stomach and he turned around and
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  Speaker 2: said to her, did they get the guy who did it?
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  Speaker 2: Which is a very strange thing for Allah to say.
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  Speaker 3: Because he had known Dennis Sweeney for a long time,
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  Speaker 3: so if Dennis Sweeney was the one who shot him,
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  Speaker 3: he probably wouldn't say did you get the guy who
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  Speaker 3: did it? Right?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, very strange, that very strange thing to say. And Dennis, then,
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: you know, he was sitting out thereving to Winston. And
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  Speaker 2: apparently according to the telephone installer who was never identified
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: in the newspapers, he was always just a telephone installer,
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: but he had a lot to say about the murder.
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: To the newspapers. He said that the gun was taken
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: away with a handkerchief before the cops got there. So
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  Speaker 2: you've got an almost identical, right Mark Chatman, John Lennon
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  Speaker 2: thing where a guy walks in shoots someone very strangely
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  Speaker 2: comes out, drops his gun, waits for the cops calmly,
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  Speaker 2: and then the gun is taken away before the cops
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  Speaker 2: get there. It's a dry run almost. It's absolutely bizarre.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, it is striking how similar these two shootings are,
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  Speaker 3: and it is rife with coincidences, like how the office
• 6:01
  Speaker 3: building where this happened there was apparently a sort of
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  Speaker 3: CIA connected law firm in that building. Is that right?
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  Speaker 2: That's right, Donovan Newton, Irvin and Leisure were operating out
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  Speaker 2: of thirty Rockefeller Plaza at the time, and they are
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  Speaker 2: the law firm that gave Mark Chapman's attorney, second attorney,
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: private attorney, the guys you never should have got the
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  Speaker 2: get the gig. They gave him one of their employees
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  Speaker 2: to help him when he was working on the Chapman case.
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  Speaker 2: You know, I don't know where your coincidence threshold is, Adam,
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  Speaker 2: but that one starts to push mine a bit too
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  Speaker 2: high near the red zone. But you know, and then
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  Speaker 2: of course these two guys then starts putting people up
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: Milton Climb, who just happens to be the head of
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: the Manchurian candidate Assessination program for the CIA. Again coincidence
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  Speaker 2: red zone pushing up there on the barometer. But yeah,
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  Speaker 2: they were in the same building. So it's a very
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  Speaker 2: cozy millieu, this thirty Rockefeller Plaza. Literally six months later,
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  Speaker 2: Jonathan Marx was also working in there, this second lawyer
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  Speaker 2: that was working for Chapman, and he obviously went across
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  Speaker 2: the corridor up, up and down the stairs and Donovan
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  Speaker 2: have an leisure they could give him one of their
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  Speaker 2: guys to help him on the on the Lennon Chapman case.
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  Speaker 2: So yeah, all very cozy, all very Rockefeller Plaza.
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  Speaker 3: And another name popped up when I was reading your
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  Speaker 3: article that I recognized just from looking into Jonestown. And
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  Speaker 3: I'm wondering if you know if there's any connection between
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  Speaker 3: Robert Layton, who was a lawyer at this law firm,
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  Speaker 3: who there's a quote where he says he asked Sweeney
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  Speaker 3: if he had a gun in that Sweeney's right, I'm
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  Speaker 3: not armed anymore. The Layton, there's there's a I don't
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  Speaker 3: know how much you've looked into Jonestown.
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  Speaker 2: But a bit of many through your excellent work.
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  Speaker 3: Actually, yeah, everyone aside from Jim Jones who kind of
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  Speaker 3: built and founded Jonestown, came from one Cia connected family,
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  Speaker 3: the Layton family, and what a weird coincidence that a
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  Speaker 3: Layton would pop up in this. I don't know if
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  Speaker 3: they're related.
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  Speaker 2: But I would not be surprised. But yeah, I didn't
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  Speaker 2: look into this. Robert later was, I mean he was,
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  Speaker 2: he was there. He was quoted in the newspaper, as
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  Speaker 2: you know, describing the scene afterwards. So again it's all
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  Speaker 2: very cozy and all very strange. And to be honest,
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  Speaker 2: super Adam, I thought that was the end of it.
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  Speaker 2: I thought, okay, it's there's a lot of coincidences here.
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  Speaker 2: The police came and arrested him. He was taken away,
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  Speaker 2: obviously to be assessed. Poor old Allard was rushed to
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  Speaker 2: a local hospital. They did the same thing with John then,
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  Speaker 2: and they tried to pump his heart, but they couldn't
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  Speaker 2: save him and he died. So Alid was not going
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  Speaker 2: to say anything more apart from, you know, did they
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  Speaker 2: get the guy who did it? Was pretty much his
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  Speaker 2: last words, right, So I just kind of thought, why
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  Speaker 2: go for Ellan Lowenstein? You know, he was you know,
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  Speaker 2: he was working for Ted Kennedy, but he was a
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  Speaker 2: bit of I think a low hanging fruit at the time.
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  Speaker 2: I would say he wasn't really a top guy for
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  Speaker 2: Ted Kennedy had at lastein at that point, so I
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  Speaker 2: sort of I couldn't really find a motive. So I thought, Okay,
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  Speaker 2: what I need to do here is to look into
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  Speaker 2: who Dennis Sweeney was, you know, and try and work
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  Speaker 2: my way backwards with him. And when I started to
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  Speaker 2: look into Dennis Sweeney, these other characters just started to
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  Speaker 2: come out. And then one character I'm sure going to
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  Speaker 2: discuss shortly just started to loom very large. And it
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: was almost like a kind of Forest Gump guy who
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  Speaker 2: just had this incredible, crazy career at the heart of,
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: you know, the top government, and he just sort of
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  Speaker 2: flip flopped around and did these crazy things, and he
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  Speaker 2: was associated with all these crazy places. And we're talking
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: about Peter Bourne. I'm sure we're going to get to shortly,
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  Speaker 2: and I just thought this is going to this is
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: going way deeper, Adam than I ever thought it would.
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  Speaker 2: Because I thought this is going to be a short
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: article that'd be finished in I would say two weeks,
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  Speaker 2: maybe three weeks work. It took me six months to
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: do this because once I found out about Peter Bourne
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: and his associates, I just had to go deeper and
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: deeper and buy lots of books and do lots of research.
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  Speaker 2: And the more I found out about this guy, the
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  Speaker 2: more I was just shocked, really really shocked.
• 9:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah, we'll get to it more at the end. But
• 9:46
  Speaker 3: people might hear Peter Bourn and think, oh, like born
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  Speaker 3: identity exactly.
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: Just that guy. Getting back to Dennis, he was born
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  Speaker 2: in forty three. Father died in career, you know, and
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: he was a very boy. He took on his stepfather's name,
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: was pushed out to these boys ranches kind of places
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: when he was younger, so I think mum couldn't really
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: cope with him, and stepfather probably didn't want him around.
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  Speaker 2: Didn't have a happy childhood, I don't think. Started to
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: dabble in LSD and drugs when he was fifteen, very
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: Mark Chapman esque. Started to get get into religion deeply
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: round about fifteen sixteen, very Mark Chapman esque, and he
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: kind of, you know, he was looking always to sort
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: of find himself, which again is classic Mark Chapman. A
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: guy who's just not got a very strong identity. And
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: he came across Alan Lowenstein, and Lowenstein is a completely
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: different cut of fish. He was born much earlier, in
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: nineteen twenty eight to an affluent Jewish family in New York.
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  Speaker 2: And you know, he was always on a fast track
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  Speaker 2: to get to have a career in politics. Lots of connections,
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  Speaker 2: no doubt, through his family. Fantastically charismatic. Apparently when he
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: walked into a room, the room just lit up and
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  Speaker 2: had a Lowenstein. I think a lot of people were
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  Speaker 2: thinking he could be, you know, possibly even a Democratic leader.
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  Speaker 2: But unfortunately for Ralloed he had this problem from in
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  Speaker 2: those days. He was a gay man who was hiding
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  Speaker 2: his sexuality, and I think that was probably well known
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: at the time. There was a lot of complaints that
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  Speaker 2: he got too close to certain students at Stanford, which
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  Speaker 2: is where he ended up teaching in the early sixties,
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  Speaker 2: and that's where he met Dennis Sweeney. And the first
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: thing added Lonstein did to said to Dennis Sweeney was
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: do you want to come out to Mississippi and work
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  Speaker 2: on some civil rights movements and you know, and some
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  Speaker 2: action groups out there. And Dennis Sweeney said, yeah, sure,
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  Speaker 2: I'd love to do that. And Dennis was very much
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: enamored with this smooth urbane, added Lowenstein, who at that point,
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: was already heavily into politics and was already sort of
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: on a fast track apparently to a great political career,
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: which sally didn't happen for him. So when just getting
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: my dates right here. So when Sweeney went down to Mississippi,
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: was invited to travel down there by Lowenstein to join
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: the civil rights movements. That's where he met this woman
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: called Mary King, and Mary King at the time, she
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: wasn't a leader of such, but she was a very
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: devoted civil rights activist at the time, and apparently according
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: to everyone that knew them at the time, they quickly
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: became an item and within a few months they got married,
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: which was apparently to everyone's surprise. And this was around
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: about nineteen sixty five. But he was having some problems
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: down there, Dennis. There was a believe a bomb that
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: was placed in his house, the civil rights activists house,
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: by some white nationalists that just literally blew the house apart.
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: It was all made of wood, and amazingly he survived that,
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: but that must have really affected him quite badly. And
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: then he went to dinner with some local business people
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: who were kind of supporting the civil rights movement, and
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: they were their house was surrounded by white nationalists who
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: were all sort of threatening to kill him when he
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: came out, and then he started to get these strange
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: phone calls that came into the house, which seemed to
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: be from the FBI saying, you know, you're in trouble.
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: You need to get out, or we're not going to
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: come and help you. So I think there was probably
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: a lot of paranoia going on down there at the time.
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: There was a lot of, no doubt, very difficult work,
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: very dangerous work. I have to admire Mary and Dennis
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: for doing it, incredibly brave to do it Allard was
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: not down there all the time, just popped in and out.
• 13:01
  Speaker 3: And one thing, just to back up a little bit
• 13:04
  Speaker 3: that we should mention from the article, when Sweeney and
• 13:09
  Speaker 3: Lohenstein meet at Stanford, it's at a time when there
• 13:13
  Speaker 3: are seven known MK ultra projects happening.
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah there, yeah, yeah, just just eight years previously. I
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: think fifty five was when it started, and they met
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: in sixty three, so as you know, it wasn't out
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: until the mid seventies mkulture, So there's a pretty good
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: chance that from fifty five to sixty three it was
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: still going on. So yeah, Stanford was an mkulture hotbed
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: and that's that's as you're right, you rightly point out,
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: and it's a very important point in this story to
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: mention that.
• 13:37
  Speaker 3: And it's those when we talk about the coincidences in
• 13:42
  Speaker 3: this story. That's a big one is people as they're
• 13:46
  Speaker 3: moving around, they're kind of moving in the same way
• 13:49
  Speaker 3: MK ultra stuff moves and where it's at these people
• 13:53
  Speaker 3: are at. But just a coincidence.
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean it needs to get in coincidence
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: threshold down Adham. I think it's too high. Your bar's
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: too high.
• 14:04
  Speaker 4: But yeah, I think, yeah, that that adds a bit
• 14:07
  Speaker 4: odd and he's going to get more odd when you
• 14:09
  Speaker 4: talk about mchoutr facilities, especially when we talk about Peter Bourne,
• 14:13
  Speaker 4: who I can't wait to get into because he's the.
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: Real star of this story. He just emerged as this incredible,
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: yeah superscar of weirdness.
• 14:22
  Speaker 3: Let's talk about him. His father served in a precursor
• 14:26
  Speaker 3: to I six, that's right, so.
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: A special Operations executive. Yeah, that was the original I six,
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: just after the second Bobo.
• 14:33
  Speaker 3: Which that's always immediately suspicious to me because in my
• 14:38
  Speaker 3: looking into the CIA, I know they love a family band.
• 14:42
  Speaker 3: They I mean that makes sense. If you can get
• 14:45
  Speaker 3: an entire family on that side, they're going to be
• 14:48
  Speaker 3: easier to work with and use and manipulate. So the
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: fact that he has those intelligence ties makes me automatically
• 14:55
  Speaker 3: suspicious that Peter Bourne has those same ties.
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, Jeffrey when his father was a serious
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: so he dude, he was based in Malaysia, based in
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: the Far East. He was doing some very strange things.
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: Let me just get this right here, what they were
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: saying he was doing, because it's quite sinister. He was
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: in charge of biomedical research the Special Forces in Southeast Asia.
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: That just puts his ship up the spine.
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: There's an interesting picture of him in your article because
• 15:21
  Speaker 3: it seems like he's kind of over the years downplayed
• 15:26
  Speaker 3: as participation in Vietnam a little bit.
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, that's Peter. That's his son.
• 15:31
  Speaker 3: Oh sure, Jeffrey's just.
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: As interesting as Peter. But Jeffrey, because he's old school,
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: I think he kept a lot of what he did
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: under wraps. Peter, God bless him. His son has got
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: a bit of an ego, got a bit of a
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: massive ego, and he put a lot of stuff on
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: his website. He shouldn't have put on his website, which
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: is now a website has been very quickly deleted, probably
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: after I emailed him. Actually I shouldn't have done that,
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: but I emailed him through the website, and I had
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: to go through a process where it has to go
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: to a sort of third party to verify me, which
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: is always very vicious. Yeah, that's that's got intelligence all
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: over it. But I email, I'd say that I'd like
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: to talk to you about certain things. I mentioned one
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: of the facilities that he worked with, which we'll get
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: to in a minute, which I think was probably a
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: massive red flag in Peter Bournes world. And within a
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: few weeks of that email, his website was down. But
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: good old way back machine, you know, it's it's always
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: there for you, and it's still there, so thank goodness,
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: I could go back and find it. But but yeah,
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: just just to get back to Peter. Actually, before we
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: do that, we should just finish off with Mary King
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: and Dennis Sweeney down in Mississippi with their marriage. One
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: really important thing happened there with Dennis and Mary. Dennis
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: went to the dentist.
• 16:34
  Speaker 3: Yes, very important.
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: Boy.
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: We'll get to how important it is later. But he
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: went to the dentist. Mary was there was his wife.
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: Was his wife when they went to the dentist. Whether
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: she had tended with him or not, we do not know,
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: but that will become very important later. So if your
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: listeners can just bear that in mind, around about sixty five,
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: Dennis and Mary dentists appointment. We'll come back to it,
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: very very important. So then what they do is they
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: go back to San Francisco. Oh, I don't have done
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: if Mary went back to it's where she was from.
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: But that's where Dennis went back and Mary went with him.
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: They got into some anti war stuff. It was kind
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: of sixty six, sixty seven, now, no, it was sixty six,
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: so you know it was very much anti war at
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: the time. Was it was all kind of Vietnam, and
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: you know, could imagine that the sort of groups that
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: they mingled in. Dennis went back to Stanford again, where
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: again obviously ada of low esteem was around, and this
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: is where things started to really go wrong to Dennis.
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: He started to hear voices, he started to take more drugs,
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: he started to see psychiatrists. He started to do the
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: exact things that Mark Chapman did when he was with
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: Gloria Chapman exactly the same playbook. I'm starting to hear voices.
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: I'm starting to see very psychiatrists. I believe I'm kind
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: of falling apart. Mary being Mary being an incredibly ambitious
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: young woman. She wasn't going to put up with this
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: nonsense for very long, and she divorced him in double
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: quick time and kind of left him at that point.
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: So Dennis Sweeney was kind of left to drift in
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: San Francisco, and we'll come back to him later, but
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: that's kind of the end of Dennis Sweeney part of
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: this story. So Mary goes off and does some strange
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: things back in the South. She marries another person, but
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: she doesn't say who. So she's got another mysterious second marriage.
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: Who knows who that is? Could be another Dinner Sweeney,
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: who knows. Then she starts Mary to get into government,
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: which surprised all of her friends. She starts to get
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: into government and sort of health NGOs, and she started
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: to work for Lbjy's administration, and she started to work
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: for Nixon's administration, and all of friends like, how the
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: hell did you get this gig? Mary? You don't know
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: nothing about health you're a pr person pretty much back
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: in Mississippi in the civil rights days. But suddenly she's
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: seamlessly moves into government. So we'll leave Mary there for now.
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: So that's Mary's starting the kind of government ladder climb.
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: That's kind of Mary's position where Dennis is over in
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: San Francisco taking his LSD on his corn flex and
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: seeing psychiatrists and starts to hear voices in his head. Now,
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: so let's get it to Peter. Good old Peter, the
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: real fascinating character if you need another fascinating character in
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: this story. And Pete I was just not expecting Peter Bourne.
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: I only found Peter Burn through Mary King, and we'll
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: get to how I found that out because they got married,
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: as you know right, Peter was Mary's third husband. But
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: Peter Bourne, I thought, okay, let's look into this Peterborn guy.
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: And boy did I not see what was coming when
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: I found out about this guy. So we know his
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: father was Jeffrey, worked in Malaysia, worked in some biomedical
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: research whatever that was after the Second World War. We
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: can only I don't want to think about what that
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: would have been. Yeah, yeah, Peter, Jeffrey was very much
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: a kind of nepotistic kind of guy. He wanted to
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: help out his young lad, Peter. So what Peter did
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: once he finished his schooling in the UK, Jeffrey got
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: in a position as a fellow at Emory University in
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: the psychiatric department now Emory University. Here we are cheering
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: number two MK culture facility number two, Emory University in
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: the story.
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: And what he ends up doing there could not sound
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: more like an mk ultra thing, at least in terms
• 19:56
  Speaker 3: of his work at the Atlanta Penitentiary.
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, what we know for definite is that from nineteen
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: fifty five onwards, Emory University was experimenting on prisoners at
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: Atlanta Penitentiary with mkulture experiments, So we know that was
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: definitely going on fifty five homards. When Peter Bourne turns
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: up in sixty three, eight years later, they're probably still
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: doing the same stuff. But he starts to work. Peter
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: Bourne on his official resume helping people with their alcoholic
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: problems in Atlanta's penitentiary. So it's kind of it's a
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: nice potential cover for Peter if he's potentially doing something
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: else other than helping out alcoholics, right, and you sort
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: of wonder you're banged up in prison, you know you're
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: not going to go out of bars very often. You
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: probably don't get that much access to alcohol. Is alcoholism
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: a big problem for prisoners when they're actually in prison?
• 20:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And he described the group he was working on
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: or experimenting on as arrested alcoholics, And yeah, I don't
• 20:54
  Speaker 3: think you get arrested just for alcoholism. There's gotta be
• 20:57
  Speaker 3: more to know. And even then, his means of treating them,
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: or the way this program worked, it seemed, was, well,
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: you can avoid jail time if you just take this drug,
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: which again sounds very MK ultra esque.
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And Emory University is only five miles away from
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: Mark Chapman's house, so that's the world worth considering. So,
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: and you know, Chapman was at this point. I'm not
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: saying there's any link between Peter Bourn and Emory and
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: Chapman five miles down the road, but Chapman was beginning
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: to unravel at the exact same time that's Peter Bourne
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: turned up at Emory. I don't think there's a connection,
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: but I would not be surprised if there was one.
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: But anyway, we'll part that for now. So what does
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: Peter Bourne do. Once he's done his great work in
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: Atlanta jails for Emory University, he decides to go to
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: Vietnam as a captain. You know, again, no doubt Dad
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: pulling a few strings. And you know, his biography says
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: that he worked for the Wall to Read Army Institute
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: in Vietnam and he's apparently was looking after and assessing
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: the psychological effects of stress on soldiers in Vietnam, which
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: which on the face of it seems fairly denign and legitimate.
• 22:01
  Speaker 3: Sure, but the problem.
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: The problem is that wr Ai R also did a
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: lot of experiments that have been documented on microwave audiograms
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: to spoken word sounds that you could implant in people's heads,
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: which again is it couldn't be more MPa outra if
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: it tried. So he's working for an organization that's all
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: about electromagnetism and the foundation of putting thoughts into side
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: people's heads. Again, no verified proof that that's what he
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: was doing in Vietnam. I know, people like Maybrus will
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: say that that sort of stuff was going on in
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: Vietnam with sort of you know, battle fatigued troops all
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: the time. They were using with these kinds of experiments
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: in the psychiatric field. Whether Borne was doing that or not,
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: who knows. I mean, you know, as far as Bourne's
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: official biography would say he was a researcher, that's all
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: he was doing out there.
• 22:44
  Speaker 3: Yeah, who knows. But also probably like it seems like
• 22:49
  Speaker 3: that's probably what he was there for.
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean he's admitted again on the website you
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: go to Away, he's admitted that he was in Special Forces,
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: so you know, we know special Forces weren't really into
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: their as such. You know, there are more into doing
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: sort of clandestine special stuff. And there's also a picture
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: that he put up on his website which I put
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: in the article where it's just quite a chilling picture.
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: Actually you'd expect to see Peter Bourne in a white
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: coat with a pad and some poor soldier in front
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: of him and he's trying to coax him through his
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: dreadful time. But what this picture shows, and it's an
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: incredibly I can't believe the guy put this up on
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: his website, is Peter Bourne dressed as a kind of
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: army guy and all his fatigues with a rifle in
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: his hand, walking away from a burning Oliver Stone platoon
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: esque village behind him. Okay, it was just a burnt
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: to the ground, and he's got this massive grin on
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: his face.
• 23:40
  Speaker 3: The biggest smile on his face.
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: It's kind of like, how are you enjoying this? Yea, yeah,
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: you know what's what's going on here? You know you're
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: not doing research in that village, are you? You know
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: you're not going to get many medical research offices that
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: are going to be usable in a burnt down Vietnamese village.
• 23:59
  Speaker 3: It's just and he comes out of all that and
• 24:03
  Speaker 3: decides he's an anti war activist now.
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but just before he does come out, the researcher
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: got a bronze Star medal. He got an air medal
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: when he got a Comback's medic badge, which is pretty
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: good going for a researcher. So he did, he did.
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: We got some good got some good medals there, and
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: you're right. Bizarrely, after that, he decides to relocate to
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: the West Coast as an anti war protester and he
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: starts to operate in the anti war protester circles, which
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: again to Captain Bourne, who likes to get in the
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: thick of it in burning villages. That's quite a swerve,
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: isn't it.
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And around this time he ends up at a
• 24:38
  Speaker 3: third mk ultra.
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: Well, he ends he ends up at Stanford. He goes
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: to Stanford. Sure, it's sixty seven, sixty nine, he's in Stanford,
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: you know, so he's gone from Memory to Stanford. Nows
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: this is this is Born's second mk ultra links university
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: in America. So that's kind of disturbing. And just when
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: you think can't get any more disturbing with Peter Bourne,
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: I discover that at the very same time he decides
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: to volunteer at the Heights Ashbury Free Clinic, right, which
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: I don't know if you know about that, Adam, but
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: that is a mk ultra almost kind of templeture.
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Doctor Jolly West.
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: That's right, as exposed by Tom O'Neil in his great
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: book Chaos, where Tom O'Neil put together the fact that
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: the Manson family, Charlie Manson and his and his group
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: and his group of followers, his so called family went
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: there a lot to this clinic at the very same
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: time that Jolie and West was working out of there.
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: And I think Tom O'Neil's theory is that Jolie west
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: gave Charlie Manson the sort of skills that you know,
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: he would need to brainwash and hypnotize his followers, and
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: a lot of his followers said that he did have
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: magnetic hypnotic skills, you know, to get them to do
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: things that they didn't really want to do. So you
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: sort of think, if that's true, that's you know, you
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: get into co and tell pro you're getting into Operation Chaos,
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: You're getting into you know, really dark dark waters. But
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: as well as Jolie Westby and there and Charlie Manson,
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: you've got our old friend Peter Bourne also, which is
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: that's your third MK Ultra laite facility, Peter. It's getting
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: a bit careless now, and my coincidence meter is getting
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: very high here. My threshold has pretty much been surpassed
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: at this point.
• 26:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I tell people all the time think of this
• 26:14
  Speaker 3: podcast more as a true crime podcast where the government
• 26:17
  Speaker 3: is always the criminal, because if you listen to enough
• 26:20
  Speaker 3: true crime podcasts, you're immediately going to hear, oh, well,
• 26:23
  Speaker 3: I don't believe in coincidences, but with stuff like this
• 26:26
  Speaker 3: you do. Because when you put this together with Mark Chapman,
• 26:30
  Speaker 3: it feels like some entity carrying out a playbook kind
• 26:35
  Speaker 3: of thing where they've got this down, they know how
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: to do this, this is their mo How is that
• 26:39
  Speaker 3: a coincidence? I don't know how people can take that
• 26:42
  Speaker 3: as a coincidence when it's happening at the same time
• 26:46
  Speaker 3: a massive government program meant to cause this kind of
• 26:50
  Speaker 3: thing is also happening. There's no way those are coincidences.
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And if you look at the West coast at
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: the time, Adam, you've got someone like James Olray mlk's
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: alleged assassin, seeing those few of them, eight different psychiatrists
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: and hypnotists in California at the same time sixty seven
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: until sixty eight. So he's there being hypnotized. Okay, So
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: you know, is that a coincidence? Maybe Siah and Syrah
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: same thing he's in the area is so called assassination
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: of Robert Kennedy is in San Francisco at the time
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: in sixty eight, same time West and Born are working
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: out of their clinic. Is it because I don't know,
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: I mean, it could be, it could would we just
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: have to kind of park it, really, but what.
• 27:31
  Speaker 3: A wild coincidence that would be.
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think that's the question that got Peter
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: Borne spooks when I asked him that on an email, said, look,
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: the thing I want to talk to you about because
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: if you go on his Wikipedia, he talks about Emory,
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: you know, he did some great work with some alcoholics.
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: He talks about Stanford. You know, he went to Stanford
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: Psychiatric Department, you know, world renowned. But he doesn't mention,
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: you know, too much about hip Sasbury just says he
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: was there as a volity. It quickly moves on. So
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: I thought, that's that's a weird one, because no one
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: even I mean communication with Time, I Neil, not even
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: Time I Neil got that guy that one. So Tom's
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: going to be looking into that because Tom's got some
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: documentation Mike Sashbury at the time, and I'm hoping that
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: he can find some links to Peter Bourne from that time.
• 28:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah, he also started working for Nixon in seventy two.
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: Okay, Yeah. What happens is after he's finished his volunteering
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: at Pikes Aashbury and working at Stanford in sixty nine,
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: he goes back to Emory and Georgia. This is Peter Bourne,
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: and Peter Bourne at this time starts to hook up
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: with Jimmy Carter, who's an up and coming politician, local
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: politician who obviously becomes governor of Georgia in the early seventies.
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: And what Peter Bourne says he's doing there is setting
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: up a health center, a community health center. And coincidenta
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: is exactly the same time that Mark Chapman started to
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: take LSD and started his journey into charismatic Christianity in
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: Georgia five miles down the road. Again, I'm sure this
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: is a complete coincidence. So I'm sure Muchapmon never went
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: to Peter Bourne's health center. No, and if he did,
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: doubt will ever find out, right, But yeah, so then
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: Bourne is kind of hooking up with Bourne's father. Jeffrey
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: and Peter are both Jimmy Carter friends and kind of
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: enable us. And they're the guys that, apparently, I don't
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: think Carter's disputed this. They gave him the idea to
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: run for president, okay, and they kind of pushed him.
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: So Carter at the time starts to work with Peter
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: Bourne as an anti drugs kind of guy, as a
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: drugs are in Georgia, and Bourne started to sort of
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: class himself as Carter's Special Advisor for Health in Georgia.
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: So what you've got there is you've got a British
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: guy who's had a lot of MK culture potentially experience
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: in different universities, who's now pushing for a democratic nobody.
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: Let's face it, at the time, Carl literally was a
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: nobody to run for the American presidency. But before he
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: did that, Bourne had bit more politics to get involved with,
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: and he starts to work, would you believe for Richard Nixon?
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: As you say, he starts to work for Rition between
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: as a drug as a drugs health guy, so you
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: know he's kind of in there, and he says he
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: kind of did it because it was a kind of
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: career thing and he had no affiliate affiliation with Nick
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: and that his heart was always with Jimmy. But what
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: he was doing was while he was working for Nixon.
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: This is obviously pre Watergate's sort of seventy twoish, he's
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: going back to Georgia and he's teeing up Jimmy for
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: his seventy six run. So it's kind of like you
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: had a classic insider there working for for Nixon, and
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: he worked for Forward as well born, so he's kind
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: of the ultimate Washington insider for Jimmy Carter, giving him,
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: no doubt all the intel on obviously Nixon's inadequacies as
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: a president and a guy running for seventy six. So
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: it's very interesting that you've got this guy there and
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: you've got his wife, because what happened is Peter Bourne.
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: This is where it all ties up. Peter Bourne. When
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: he went back to Emery and Georgia and started to
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: hang out with Jimmy Carter in the early seventies, he
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: met Mary King, and true love blossomed, and Mary King
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: and Peter Bourne married and became this kind of you know,
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: Washington power couple. Really, there's another way to describe it.
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: So what you've got there is you've got this very
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: disturbing link between Peter Bourne and Dennis Sweeney and Mary King,
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: which again is it could be a coincidence, could just
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: be Peter Ball doesn't want to ever talk about Dennisweeney.
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: Apparently when he was asked about Dennis Sweeny and his wife,
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: he just said, oh, she was only married to him
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: for a few months. I think it was nearly a year.
• 31:10
  Speaker 3: It seems like Mary King also kind of later in
• 31:14
  Speaker 3: life tried to distance herself from Dennis Sweeney.
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: She did. She wrote a book, quite a good book
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: actually about you know, her struggles in the civil rights
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: movement in the sixties. This is a very interesting book,
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: you know, because that's a very interesting time and there's
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: a lot of brave people down and do some great work.
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: But she gives a few things away in the book
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: she probably doesn't want to. And she kind of mentions,
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: you know that after she'd done all the civil rights
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: and divorced Dennisweeney and all the rest of it, she
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: was told by her friends, don't ever mention Dennis Sweeny again,
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: obviously after Danna Lancetey murder, and she said she kind
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: of thought that was where she was going to go.
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: But then her friends sort of said, to hell, you
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: might seem a bit evasive if you don't actually talk
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: about and if you tried to completely scrubb matter your life.
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: So no doubt she considered that, but then she thought, actually,
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: he's done such a big, famous crime. I was married
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: to the guy. I'm going to have to be honest
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: about it. And the stuff she reveal, which we'll get
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: to at the end of this podcast, you know, she
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: go too much away, really about what she might have
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: known about Dennis Wheney and what was going on in
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: his mind. So so, yeah, Mary, you know, getting back
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: to where we are in the sort of coming up
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: to Carter's run for presidency, You've got two people there
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: who were just completely at the heart of government. And
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: obviously when Carter did win, Peter Bourne was made his
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: drugs are which was incredible.
• 32:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's really strange. Should we talk about the dental
• 32:26
  Speaker 3: appointment now? This is where I have it in the notes.
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: If nothing, Yeah, yeah, that's good, the DNI point, because
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: what how did you got Dennis with Let's get back
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: to poor old Dennis, right, Okay, he's now a divorcee.
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: He's hearing these voices in his head, and these voices
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: are becoming more and more strong, and he's getting more
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: and more depressed. And he believes, and he's now come
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: to believe that the voices are coming from a transmitter
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: that were placed inside his teeth, would you believe? And
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: he believes this was done when he went to the
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: dentist with Mary back in sixty five in Mississippi, and
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: he's convinced that's where this happened, and it got to
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: such a horrible point with poor old Dennis. He actually
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: tried to pull out his teeth with pliers because he
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: was convinced that was the only way he was going
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: to get this transmitter out of his head. When he
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: got most of his teeth out, would you believe he
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: then still kept on hearing the voices. This is not surprising.
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: And he said he thought it might be an implant
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: into his brain because he just felt that something was
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: transmitting internally messages to his mind. I mean, of course
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: this could be mental illness. You know, we have to
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: we have to state this, you know. But then there's
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: something else that Mary King gives away later on. We'll
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: get to that points to maybe there might have been
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: something else going on. But Dennis is on a bad
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: path now. You know. It's interesting with Peter and Mary,
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: you know, becoming this Washington power couple rising up the ranks,
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: You've got poor old Dennis who's just literally becoming destitute.
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: He goes from home to home, he tries to be
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: a carpenter. All his friends just see him going down. Obviously,
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: he's lost all his teeth, becomes homeless. He tries a
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: bit of music, He tries a bit of filmmaking. Everything
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: doesn't work for poor old Dennis. And in a way,
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: he's kind of going on this fast track through the
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: seventies to oblivion. Really to the point where I think,
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: you know, when you get to March nineteen eighty, he
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: turns up in Adam Lowenstein's office. You know, he's a
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: breaking point, there's no question about that. But yeah, let's
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: let's get back to good old Peter Bourne. The Drugs Are.
• 34:17
  Speaker 3: Yeah, he in his role as Drugs Are wrote a
• 34:21
  Speaker 3: very interesting article about cocaine. It seemed like he was
• 34:27
  Speaker 3: kind of pro cocaine.
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he called it the cocaine myth. It's just it's great,
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: you should all take it. There's nothing wrong with it. It's
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: just like, you know, what's what's the big deal. And
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: remember when he's saying this, it's seventy four, so he
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: hasn't become in the car administration yet, but he is
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: working with Jimmy as his health advisor and his drug
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: advisor in Georgia. So he's kind of laying down the
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: marker there. I would say to never give this guy
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: a job drug yeah, as a Drugs Are, you know,
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: but it's something about p Born. He's just he can
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: say or do anything, is literally untouchable. The guy, as
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: we're about to get into the stuff he did when
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: he was Jimmy Carter's drugs aret is just off the charts, horrific, dreadful.
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: You know, it's the sort of thing he would not
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: expect the guy in his position to do, but he
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: does it, and he just gets away with it.
• 35:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah. For example, he participated in a weird insecticide spring
• 35:24
  Speaker 3: campaign against Mexican and marijuana.
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, he always said he didn't have too
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: much of a problem in marijuana, and his big target
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: was heroin. Clearly he didn't want to go to any
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: cocaine because he loves cocaine. We don't worry about cocaine.
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: That's great stuff. We should be having that back in
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: our pharmacist. Now, heroin was his target, and he thought
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: his big idea was was to give the Mexican government
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: some of this thing called parakeet. I forgot the name
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: of that, right, paraketta, I think it's actually called, which
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: was a herbicide, very deadly for humans. And he decided
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: to spray the heroin crops, the poppy fields with this
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: stuff and he thought that will kill off the heroine
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: that's coming in from Mexico and it will solved. My
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: big problem probably was the Mexicans went, yeah, that okay,
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: that's fine, but we've got a big marijuana problem in
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: our country, and you're you know, coming from our country
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: to your country. You want to spray that stuff when
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: our marijuana crops. He's some of that could be coming.
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: I'm not sure about that, but he agreed to it.
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: But at the end of the day, it's illegal, so hey,
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: they shouldn't be taken anyway. So he's got some crap
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: on it. We sprayed on it. It's your fault. You know,
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: it's not nothing to do with me. You know, it's
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: all illegal, so shame on you. So he decides to
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: spray all the crops, all the marijuana crops at the
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: time with parakeet in Mexico. He allows the Mexican go
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: to do this, and of course this stuff comes over
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: with the American border and people have started to take
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: it and they're getting health and you know, they're getting
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: a heart and lung problems. You know, it's a massive scandal.
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: The press picked up on it, but the guy, again untouchable,
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: he just got away with it. He was just kind
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: of like, you know, at the end of the day,
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: these people are moaning about some of that's illegal.
• 36:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that seems like that was his actual defense was, well,
• 36:49
  Speaker 3: it's illegal, you shouldn't be doing it, so what if
• 36:51
  Speaker 3: it's making you sick?
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: Unbelievable. There's another But there was a guy. There was
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: a kind of pro marijuana group and there's a guy
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: around it called Keith Stroop. Was a very interesting guy.
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: And because Peter Bourne is a bit of a kind
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: of bona v kind of guy, I think Peter Bourne
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: liked to be popular, he kind of was ali with
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: Keith Stroop, and he got Keith strooping once in the
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: sort of I would say, run about sort of sixty
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: seventy six cent, I'd say seventy seven. This happened possibly
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: seventy eight, and there was a big would you believe
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: pro marijuana party at the White House, and of course
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: Peter Bourne, being Peter Bourne, decides to take some marijuana
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: and cocaine at the party and is spotted by various
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: people at the party. Right, So stupid man, stupid man again, arrogant, untouchable.
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: So what then happens is would you believe Keith Stroop
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: keeps this piece of knowledge in the back of his head,
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: right it thinks, Okay, I've got this guy now. If
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: he starts to cause me problems and goes back on
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: his pro marijuana stance, I'm going to get him. So
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: when Keith Stroop found out about this parakeet being sprayed
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: on marijuana crops in Mexico, He's like, what is this
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: guy doing? This is shocking. And Keith was going to
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: the press and saying that this stuff provenly will well
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: give people lung conditions. You know, this is deadly stuff.
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: His spraying okay, But even then Peter was untouchable. But Peter,
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: I think the problem with people like Peter Bourne who
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: think they're untouchable and they've got egos the size of planets,
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: and no doubt Peter has that he pushed it too far.
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: And his undoing was he gave some quail Aids prescriptions
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: to a White House stuffer, a girl who just was
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: feeling a bit a bit down and she wanted to
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: sort of like and as you know, it's got some
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: hypnotic qualities, this drug. It's I don't think they've prescribe
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: it today. Maybe they were, who knows, what they prescribe today.
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: But anyway, he shouldn't have done it. He gave it
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: as a legal prescription. But his big problem was he
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: gave it to this girl who was sick, and she
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: gave it to a friend. Okay, a friend went to
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: the pharmacy to get these drugs for her friend, and
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: the pharmacist got a kind of suspicious who's like, you
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: don't seem like the person that's on this name. What's
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: your name? She got it all confused. It then led
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: back to Peter Pawn at the White House. You've been
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: given this prescription and eagerly by the drugs are of
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: the Jimmy Carter government. And would you believe would you believe, Adam,
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: he's still survived. Okay, he's still clung on right. He
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: still said, no, no, no, no, no, it's not a problem.
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: You know, I was just trying to help someone out
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: and I was keeping it undercover because you know, it's
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: it's doctor patient privacy thing. I'm an amazing hubris for
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: this guy to just still, you know, do And then
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: he admitted that he'd given a dozen of these prescriptions
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: to a dozen different people in the White House. It's
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: like Christ of a all on this stuff. Jimmy cut
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: up Residency. I mean, whilstgo, You've got an MK ultra
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: linked guy giving these hypnotic drugs to White House staffers illegally,
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: and he's still in his job. But the thing that
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: pushed him over the edge, just at this point, Keith
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: cashed in his chips with him and he went to
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: the press and said, I saw Peter Bourne take cocaine
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: and marijuana at a party that I attended. And that
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: was the thing where Carter has just probably got him
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: in and said, look, Peter, I know you, I know
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: you created me. I know you pushed me forward, and
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: we're good friends and I love your dad, but you've
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: done this, this, this and this. You know, the parakeet,
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: the quailis the you know, taking cocaine in the White House.
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: You gotta gost And he went and that was the
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: end of it. He left and you know, and he
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: like his wife, Mary King, he just decided to go
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: down the NGO route. He decided that I'm just going
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: to just go and start to work for the World
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: Health Organization. Would you believe the World Whole Organization hired
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: a guy who wrote an article called the cocaine myth
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: a couple of years earlier.
• 40:21
  Speaker 3: Amazing, and he worked at the UN for a while.
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: After that, worked at the UN for a while and
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: seventy eight where he met Ada Lowenstein, who was working
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: there at the time, where he might would you believe
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: I met Mark Chapman who was at the UN in
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: seventy eight in the summer at the same time. Just
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: Mark Chapman just happened to be passing through. There's absolutely
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: no evidence that they met. I've got to put that
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: out there, but they were all roughly in the UN
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: building in Geneva in the summer of seventy eight, Lowenstein,
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: born Chapman.
• 40:48
  Speaker 3: I mean, you just that's make such an insane coincidence. Again,
• 40:54
  Speaker 3: especially when you consider they're all kind of in the
• 40:56
  Speaker 3: same area in Georgia and then they just like all
• 40:59
  Speaker 3: have happened to be at the UN at the same
• 41:02
  Speaker 3: time too. It's almost as if someone's keeping tabs on
• 41:05
  Speaker 3: someone here.
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: It's extraordinary. So the Born hasn't finished, yeah, I mean
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: his extraordinary And this guy needs a mini, not a mini,
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: a massive drama series. Netflix needs to do a Peter
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: Burne series, you know, based on a true story and
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: just just tell this guy's life. It's just you know,
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: you could bring in so many crazy people into this
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: guy's life. So what does he do after that? He
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: decides to go and use his international contacts to help
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: secure releases of prisoners being held in Iraq, Cuba, Bangladesh
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: and other countries. So he's become a kind of like
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: an international hostage release guy. Just just just why wouldn't
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: you you know, if you out? Yeah, yeah, the coat
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: probably helped him push him and he was getting tired,
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: or the travel Just have a aquick too, and off
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: your gates the next country, do some more, maybe brought
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: maybe brought a bag with him.
• 41:55
  Speaker 3: So look, slide that across the table.
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: Let's all have a few lines. Just let those business go.
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: Come on, get him off that radiator. We did to
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: all go out. I've got some parties to attend. So
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: he's doing that, okay, which is bizarre, utterly bizarre. And
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: then in the mid eighties, he decides that he wants
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: to write a biography on Feedo Castro. Oh sure, okay,
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: actually do right. And what's even more incredible, Captain Peter Burne,
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: a guy who'd worked for the Nixon administration in the
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: cart administration is allowed with open arms into Cuba and
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: given access to Feedo Castro's archives.
• 42:28
  Speaker 3: Sure, sure, sure, nothing unusual about that.
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: How the hell did he pull that one off, especially.
• 42:34
  Speaker 3: At that time. Yeah, it's so weird, so weird.
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: It's a good book. It's probe Castro book to the
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: point where I've heard whispers online where some people think
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: this may prove that Peter Bourne's a Soviet double agent. Maybe,
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: you know, otherwise, why would Castro let him in? Right,
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: it's very odd. He was given lots of access, and
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: then he was then allowed after this favorable book was published,
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: to set up a health program in Cuba where America
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: doctors were allowed to come under a sort of medical
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: program to work in Cuba. So again, you know, if
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: you want to get people in there.
• 43:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's exactly the kind of thing an intelligence agency
• 43:11
  Speaker 3: could exploit. CIA always gets involved in shit like that, Like,
• 43:16
  Speaker 3: there's absolutely no way that wasn't a means of infiltrating Cuba.
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: It's even an American government titan, ex American government titan. Yeah,
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: why would they not use him to you know, get
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: it's got access to the Cuban archives. Yeah, it's almost
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: if you didn't know this was true, you'd think I
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: was bullshit you. There's no way that's going to happen.
• 43:37
  Speaker 3: That's the kind of detail you'd see in a movie
• 43:40
  Speaker 3: and be like, all right, plot hole. They'd never let
• 43:42
  Speaker 3: him access to those archives.
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, there's more to that Cuba thing. I
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: just don't buy you to see it just a MyD
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: castro and just decided to, you know, help their medical
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: problems by getting American doctors in and then writing this
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: biography on this fascinating guy, fascinated him. I don't buy it.
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: There's something not you know. But Peter Bourne, obviously his
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: official Wikipedia page doesn't give you a lot of detail.
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: You need to go a bit deeper. You know, he's
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: kind of on the surface it's like, wow, what a
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: government heavyweight, and what a great guy. He had that
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: little drug problem, but you know he's an international man
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: of great standing, you know. So anyway, so let's get
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: back to Lowen Steam. We forgot about poor old now.
• 44:22
  Speaker 3: So they meet at the un is that where born
• 44:24
  Speaker 3: and Lowlan's person.
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: I don't know there's any connection there. There was just
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: there at the same time. So there's kind of no
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: Peter Bourne Loanstein thing. But what Loan Steed does. He
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: got married, had a couple of kids, so he went
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: down the Elton John route and just tried to hide
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: his you know, his true sexuality, I think, and which
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: is very sad, but you know, you can imagine in
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: those times difficult and especially if you want to be
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: a politician, you know, you've got to You've got to
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: play the game. The marriage obviously didn't last that long.
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: I think it lasted eleven years and seventy seven they
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: got divorced, obviously, and he started to then live openly
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: as a game man. So probably in seventy seven things
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: were possibly getting easier for gay men in America. I'm
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: not sure. All your excellent podcast on the horrific you
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: know aide stuff with Reagan. Yeah, you know in a
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: two point eighty two, you know, so when that started
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: to come in, Reagan was hardly looking out for for
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: that disease? Was he and looking out for for the
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: gay community? Couldn't care less? Could he? Let's be honest,
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: you know, he was getting blighted and they just look
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: the other way. So on your recommendation, Adam, I watched
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: the Reagan film just to see if it was horrific
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: as you said it was. And boy that was that
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: was quite the watch. That was quite a watch. Yeah, yeah,
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: I digress. How do you get away a film like
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: that that really is quite astonishing? Quite you think the
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: guy just saved the world. But anyway, So get back
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: to Lowenstein. So Lowenstein is he's trying in politics again.
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: He's trying in in you know, to become a governor,
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: and he's trying to get into the Senate. He's trying,
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: He's trying lots of different things, but it's not working.
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: His career is just I think because of wasn't he
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: wasn't getting the kind of winnable elections because of who
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: he was in his background. I think he was kind
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: of being sidelined into into elections he could never win. Interestingly,
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: one of his friends at the time was Donald Rumsfeldt.
• 46:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah that's so weird.
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And you know what they like to do together?
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: Tell people what wrestle they like to wrestle together? Wres
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: Does he get any stranger than that.
• 46:15
  Speaker 3: I don't have a single friend that I've ever thought,
• 46:19
  Speaker 3: you know, we should do this weekend wrest Let's just wrestle, dude.
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: It's crazy. I mean when I saw that detail, I mean,
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: this has going to be a movie. It's says, you
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: can't make this stuff up. So, yeah, Donald was a
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: big friend of the Democrat Lowenstein. I don't know what's
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: going on there. I don't think we'll ever know, will
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: we best facing them both dead now, So yeah, we
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: leave that one for imagination. So what happened then was
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: and again this is where it starts to get weird again.
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: Our Lowenstein decides to become interested in the rf Care assassination, right,
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: and he decides that he wants to start talking to
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: URF Care assassination researchers in the mid seventies. Now, mate Brussel,
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: who was in that kind of millieu, thought he was
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: a fake and he didn't really care about the assassination,
• 47:04
  Speaker 2: and she thought he was a CIA asset, and she
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: could be right. I think there's a lot of evidence
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: that you might have been a CIA asset. But he's
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: seen sincere and if you go on YouTube, you can
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: see our Lowenstein interview that he did with I think
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: is it William Buckley, the famous talk show host in
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: the seventies. I think it's William Buckley. It's something in
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: Buckley was it was an admitted CIA asset himself who
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: worked with eld Hunt. So again and all these incredible
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: links together, and on this show. You know, I've seen
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: the YouTube clip. It's a fascinating clip. Great seventies clothes
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: going on there. Loss. You know, he lays it out.
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: I think Sarah and Syrium was Patsy and I think
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: it was you know, it wasn't wasn't right. He was
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: shot from the back, you know, very similar John then
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: and Chapman thing. She was at the front bullets company
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: other side. So that's interesting. But then just before the assassination,
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: our starts to I think give away the position that
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: he's really in, and he starts to kind of talk
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: about dark forces that kind of, and I fact that
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: it's probably best why I read it, actually, Adam, if
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: that's okay, I'll read the quote because I think it's
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: quite telling.
• 48:06
  Speaker 3: I actually haven't the notes too.
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah. Where he is and where there might
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: be a problem here. He says, if the White House,
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: the CIA, the FBI, the i r S, and other
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: prime instruments of an impartial government could be used against
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: civil rights groups, members of Congress, and anyone else who
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: incurred official displeasure. Clearly, someone somewhere might have organized some
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: of the events that changed America. They are very powerful.
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: They have allies in politics, the professions, the medias, and
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: the banks. In the end, no one knows what is
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: in the ultimate computer. What a great term them. When
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: it becomes unclear what are the forces of law enforcement
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: and which have organized crime, then it's not difficult to
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: understand why an atmosphere of fear develops. This is the clincher.
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: It takes no imagination at all to understand that things
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: can be planted in rooms that can be raided. Who
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: doesn't have something they don't want knowing, who doesn't have
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: a relationship that can be made to look embarrassing. Now
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: for a gay guy in the closet who's trying to
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: get into politics, that to me tells me his own
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: by someone, and he's compromised. There's no question about it,
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: and you just, you know, you just have to feel
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: sorry for the guy. Really, he couldn't be his true self,
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: and I think he was being manipulated by dark forces,
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: no question.
• 49:11
  Speaker 3: And one thing that we haven't mentioned yet that's in
• 49:15
  Speaker 3: the article. He when he first starts getting into politics.
• 49:20
  Speaker 3: One launches a dump Johnson campaign in part helps get
• 49:25
  Speaker 3: Nixon elected, but then he becomes disillusioned with his experience
• 49:30
  Speaker 3: running for office, and so he runs a dump Nixon
• 49:33
  Speaker 3: campaign and ends up number seven on Nixon's famous enemies list.
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, which is not a good list to be on.
• 49:42
  Speaker 3: No, no, no.
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: He could not want to be in the wrong side
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: of that guy. So yeah, I think apparently he was
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: quite proud. I've been on that this wasn't it, but
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: I think steeped down. I think he would have known
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: how dangerous things were getting for him. And you know,
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: there's people talk about when he was doing his RFK investigation,
• 49:59
  Speaker 2: you know, how much did he learn? Did he learn
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: stuff that they wanted to silence and for I don't know.
• 50:03
  Speaker 2: Maybe we just don't know. You know, he seemed very
• 50:06
  Speaker 2: sincere to me on that William Buckley talk show that
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: he was very much trying to get to the truth.
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: I think a guy in his position probably could have
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: got some more truth than anyone else can, because obviously
• 50:13
  Speaker 2: he's inside the machine somewhat. But you know, it's by
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: the time he was shot by Dennis Sweeney, he was
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: working for take Kenny as we say, you know, he
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: was mobilizing gay activists to work for take Kennedy as well,
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: which I suspect would have upset quite a lot of
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: people on the far right of things. So yeah, he
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: was possibly seen as a problem for lots of different reasons. Well, no,
• 50:34
  Speaker 2: I don't think we'll ever know for sure what the
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: reasons were. There is always an outside chance here, Adam,
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: we need to put it out there that Dennis Sweeney
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: was just a crazy guy who had some voices in
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: his head, and just you know, that's always there as
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: a possibility. But I think when I tell you these
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: last little bits, especially about what Mary King said in
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: her book, it starts to look a little bit more sinister.
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: But just just leading up to the murder, just to
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: finish up with Dennis Sweeney, he kind of he started
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: to sort of write right to his friends about his
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: unraveling and he sort of said, you know, there's there's
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: psychological quote, psychological warfare is being waged on me. I'm
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: fairly certain that I have software that I wasn't born with.
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: I've done everything I can to locate it and remove it.
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: My efforts have all been failures and usually self destructive
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: no doubt in the sixties, I was partied to some
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: behavior that was politically irresponsible. If that incurred a social debt,
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: then I'm willing to pay it in reasonable terms. So
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: it's kind of he went to lots of clinics like
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: Mark Chapman went to see lots of psychiatrists. Will never
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: really know who all these people were. So he's constantly
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: being monitored, and he's just drifting through the seventies having
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: a horrible time. So by the time by the time
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: he got to that, you know, his father died. You know,
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: he was just having a dreadful, dreadful time. And by
• 51:43
  Speaker 2: the time I think he got to our largesting's office,
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: I think he was ready to snap. But there's a
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: lot about that murder that doesn't quite add out with
• 51:50
  Speaker 2: what our Larenstein said about. You know, did they get
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: the guy who did it, The different sounding bullets that
• 51:55
  Speaker 2: the secretary heard, the fact that the telephone his stare
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: was probably in the room at the same time. The
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: telephone is Staller is the guy who lays down the
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: whole narrative of the gun being taken away. He was
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: very calm. No one knows to stay who this telephone
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: installer was media didn't bother doing their job. Again, as
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: with the John Lennon Witnesses, they don't bother asking any names.
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: They don't bother looking too deeply who you are, where
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: you come from. So it's all all very troubling, let's
• 52:18
  Speaker 2: put it that way. And Peter Bourne is just off
• 52:21
  Speaker 2: after his Cuba book more NGOs. He's doing water stuff,
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: he's trying to clean up water around the world, and
• 52:30
  Speaker 2: he's just you know, he's he's just kind of write
• 52:32
  Speaker 2: lots of different books about obviously Jimmy Carter years, his
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: glory years and no doubt helping to release hostages up
• 52:39
  Speaker 2: until her until he can't get on a plane anymore.
• 52:42
  Speaker 2: And you can still find that they're still alive. Mary
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: King and Peter Bourne is still alive. They still they
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: still go on YouTube and talk about their glory days
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: of saving the planet. You know, they very much kind
• 52:51
  Speaker 2: of like kind of like to sort of push out
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: that Mary King pretty much saved the civil rights movement
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: in the South in sixties on her own, you know,
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: born saved the world you know, from from dreadful drugs,
• 53:03
  Speaker 2: even though some of them he quite likes evidently, So
• 53:07
  Speaker 2: to get to the sort of final thoughts here, and
• 53:09
  Speaker 2: this is where it starts to I think really get
• 53:11
  Speaker 2: as a good conclusion to the peace. Like we just
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: said earlier, Adam, I wasn't sure because he did sound
• 53:18
  Speaker 2: like a guy in a lot of mental illness and
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: a lot of mental conditions that lots of people get.
• 53:23
  Speaker 2: You know, he could easily just be hearing voices in
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: his head because he's in schizophrenic you know, we know
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: this is what happens with schizophrenic patients. But Mary King
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: in her autobiography gave something away very nearly. It's a big,
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: thick book, as it took me a long time to
• 53:39
  Speaker 2: wage through it, and there's a lot of Mary King
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: is the greatest woman in the world. Stuff you've got
• 53:42
  Speaker 2: a way through. But when you get through it, she said,
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: it's a line near the end, and again I'll read it.
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: She said. The death of our Lowenstein and the ruination
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: of Dennis Sweeney may have been caused by the traumas
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: of the civil rights movement, battering what may have already
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: been a fragile balance, and that here comes to clincher.
• 53:58
  Speaker 2: I was shocked and dismay, but later learned that this
• 54:01
  Speaker 2: was a mental aberration that had been experienced in similar
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: terms by at least four individuals I knew at the time.
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: That's I let's get back to our coincidence. Yeah, tolerance here,
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: My tolerance has now reached this limit with that because
• 54:17
  Speaker 2: four people hearing voices in Mary King's group in the
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: South in Mississippi at the same time when this dentist
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: was doing his stuff. That's standing. That's pretty damning for me.
• 54:27
  Speaker 2: That sounds like a program that sounds like you know,
• 54:29
  Speaker 2: it sounds Nkultrish.
• 54:31
  Speaker 3: And the part where Born and King meet and get married.
• 54:35
  Speaker 3: You know, it could just be, well, they move in
• 54:38
  Speaker 3: the same circles, they kind of work in the same fields.
• 54:41
  Speaker 3: But also it seems like both of them at various
• 54:43
  Speaker 3: points just go work in different fields that they weren't
• 54:45
  Speaker 3: working in before, which is weird. But also it could
• 54:48
  Speaker 3: just be that they're fucking government agents and that they
• 54:51
  Speaker 3: set this up. Yeah, it's not I think a big
• 54:56
  Speaker 3: leap to think. Oh, was maybe the guy who was
• 54:59
  Speaker 3: not uber seven on Nixon's enemies list killed by right
• 55:03
  Speaker 3: wingers of some sort. That's not possible to believe at all.
• 55:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, was the Donald Rumsfeld thing? Was that awkward? Was
• 55:10
  Speaker 2: that difficult for Donald.
• 55:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that's a good point, you know, a.
• 55:14
  Speaker 2: Rising star in Reagan's administration and Bush's. You know, I
• 55:18
  Speaker 2: don't know, I'm I'm just grasping of strawsy. I don't know.
• 55:22
  Speaker 3: I mean, I'm always willing to accept that Donald Rumsfeld
• 55:25
  Speaker 3: had a role in killing someone.
• 55:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's easy to make. That one's very easy.
• 55:30
  Speaker 3: We're just talking one person in this case.
• 55:32
  Speaker 2: Not yeah, he prefers half a country normally, but for him, yeah, yeah,
• 55:39
  Speaker 2: just yeah, a little deals. But just to get to
• 55:43
  Speaker 2: one thing we missed about Peter Board in the mid
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: eighties eighty three, I think it was he just happens
• 55:48
  Speaker 2: to be in Grenada, right with his dad, who happens
• 55:52
  Speaker 2: to be working at the university that just happens to
• 55:54
  Speaker 2: be the university that Ronald Reagan used as the excuse
• 55:57
  Speaker 2: for getting the American troops to go in and save
• 55:59
  Speaker 2: them because they're the peril for this new leftist revolutionary
• 56:02
  Speaker 2: government that came in. And who's there, who is there
• 56:05
  Speaker 2: just before the Grenada invasion by American forces, Jeffrey Born
• 56:10
  Speaker 2: and Peter Bourne at the UNI.
• 56:12
  Speaker 3: And together we haven't gotten into I think the most
• 56:15
  Speaker 3: damning detail in terms of whether Peter Bourne was CIA
• 56:20
  Speaker 3: connected or not. He is the basis for the Jason
• 56:23
  Speaker 3: Bourne character.
• 56:24
  Speaker 2: Let's get to it. Let's get to it. I mean
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: that name kept horn to me throughout the research, right
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: getting Born Born, God, it's so weird that Jason Bourne
• 56:32
  Speaker 2: is based on an MK culture program guy and this
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: guy is allegedly possibly involved in MK ultra of facilities.
• 56:40
  Speaker 2: That's weird. I kind of just you know, Peter Bourne,
• 56:44
  Speaker 2: he's been. This is what he's been. He's been a
• 56:46
  Speaker 2: Vietnam Special Forces soldier, he's been a drug start he's
• 56:48
  Speaker 2: been a health sar. You've been a psychiatric researcher, hostage negotiator,
• 56:52
  Speaker 2: a clinician, a pharmacist, a senior government official, an international
• 56:55
  Speaker 2: civil servant, a diplomat and author and the creator and
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: Jimmy Carter that's a a CV, right, So I thought,
• 57:02
  Speaker 2: I don't need to put anything more on this guy.
• 57:04
  Speaker 2: He's like, he's clearly he should have ten seasons of
• 57:07
  Speaker 2: TV shows about him, you know, and just based on
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: a true story. Can you imagine how amazing it will be?
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: But I just thought the Bourne thing kept coming to me,
• 57:14
  Speaker 2: so I thought, I'll just go to his website again,
• 57:15
  Speaker 2: which again is hard to get now because it's kind
• 57:17
  Speaker 2: of very but I recommend people go to way back
• 57:19
  Speaker 2: to the sheet and find it and believe it or not.
• 57:21
  Speaker 2: Good Old Peter, who has an ego at the size
• 57:24
  Speaker 2: of the planet, was thinking the exact same things we
• 57:26
  Speaker 2: were at him. He was thinking, chase some Born character.
• 57:30
  Speaker 2: He's got a name similar to me. I wonder if
• 57:32
  Speaker 2: Robert Ludlam, you know, knew about me or heard about me.
• 57:36
  Speaker 2: So apparently Peter discussed this with his father. Jeffrey met
• 57:41
  Speaker 2: Robert Ludlam and he said he said to Robert Ludlam,
• 57:44
  Speaker 2: he said, you know what's the thing with the Born name?
• 57:48
  Speaker 2: You know what's it about? And Robert Ludlam said to
• 57:51
  Speaker 2: Jeffrey Bourne that he partly got inspiration for his Born
• 57:54
  Speaker 2: stories from reading newspapers and especially the Washington Post about
• 57:58
  Speaker 2: Peter Bourne. And then his father said to him, so,
• 58:00
  Speaker 2: are you confirming that the Jason Bourne character was byed
• 58:03
  Speaker 2: by what you heard and read about my son Peter.
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: And Robert Ludlin, who a lot of people think also
• 58:09
  Speaker 2: was an intelligence asset, said yes, I based Jason Bourne
• 58:14
  Speaker 2: on your son Peter Bourne, and that is not known
• 58:18
  Speaker 2: that's like and Peter put this, he put it in
• 58:21
  Speaker 2: a bog this website. He's proud of this. It's like
• 58:24
  Speaker 2: Jason Bourne's me, Jason Bourne's ank culture assassin. You fall,
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: You've been to every culture facilities. Are you not putting
• 58:33
  Speaker 2: two and two together here that people might start to
• 58:35
  Speaker 2: think this is a bit simious to this guy.
• 58:37
  Speaker 3: That is fascinating.
• 58:39
  Speaker 2: It's incredible.
• 58:40
  Speaker 3: That's the other part of this that I cannot believe.
• 58:42
  Speaker 3: I've never heard that Jason Bourne is based on an
• 58:46
  Speaker 3: actual guy. I had never heard that before reading the
• 58:50
  Speaker 3: article Peter.
• 58:51
  Speaker 2: Born, who was the creator Jimica. I mean, you can't
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: make that. Why this is not I mean I thought
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: when the article went out, I didn't probably I didn't
• 59:00
  Speaker 2: push it. I've given up approaching mainstream media outlets now.
• 59:04
  Speaker 2: I just I'm tired of the rejections. I know people
• 59:06
  Speaker 2: who work for big mainstream newspapers friends, and I went
• 59:10
  Speaker 2: to them with my leven stuff and they went a
• 59:13
  Speaker 2: bit scared to go. I'm not going to go there.
• 59:14
  Speaker 2: It's too scary. So I thought, I'm not going to
• 59:16
  Speaker 2: waste my time going anymore of these guys. But I'm
• 59:18
  Speaker 2: amazed I was picked this up because this is you know,
• 59:21
  Speaker 2: Jason Bourne is a very famous fictional character and Robert Ludlam.
• 59:24
  Speaker 2: The story of Robert Loadtham is very interesting. He died
• 59:27
  Speaker 2: of very mysterious death. You know, his second wife who
• 59:30
  Speaker 2: was not suited to him when he was with her.
• 59:33
  Speaker 2: He ended up burning himself alive in his armchair. Jesus, yeah, yeah,
• 59:37
  Speaker 2: burning himself alive in his armchair. And when they the
• 59:41
  Speaker 2: vibr ses should laugh, it's not laugh. It's not funny.
• 59:43
  Speaker 2: When the fire people turned up, they kind of saw
• 59:47
  Speaker 2: that the ex wife drunk in the kitchen, not trying
• 59:50
  Speaker 2: to save him. He'd kind of like almost burnt to death.
• 59:52
  Speaker 2: They managed to get into hospital. He was kind of
• 59:54
  Speaker 2: just a lie, but he died. But obviously she's in
• 59:56
  Speaker 2: the kitchen, not helping, smoking a cigarette, having a not
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 2: caring a job, her husband's burning alive in the other room,
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 2: and she committed suicide. I think about a year later.
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 2: And the Robert Ludlam mistake is very mysterious and it's
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 2: kind of quite tangled. I tried to look into it.
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 2: Who earned the rights and stuff? Good luck anyone trying
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 2: to untangle the Robert Ludlam estate rights and who owns
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 2: what But it's kind of yeah, it is. I think
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 2: there's a Robert Ludlam story there. I think his nephew
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 2: wrote a book on the murder, and we call it
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 2: a murder he thinks as Emmarlia, I don't think it's
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 2: an accident. Yeah, there's more there. There's more company love
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 2: them and loved them. I think told a lot of
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 2: his friends have found at the time that he was
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 2: an intelligence asset. And we know you worked for the military,
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 2: so before he started writing his born books. So it's
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 2: someone like Ludlin would have known all about people. I'm
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 2: pretty sure, you know, I think he would have had
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 2: his measure from a very early day. And you know,
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 2: I'll never look at the Jason Bourne films in the
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 2: same light again.
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that is such an insane detail that, Yeah, I
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 3: had never heard. One last thing about Sweeney that I
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 3: found really interesting is one he never really went to
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 3: prison for what he did. He was just hospitalized and
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 3: it seems like his schizophrenia just cured itself.
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 2: The doctors said they were amazed. They said they're amazed,
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 2: said almost you know, in a matter of weeks he
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 2: was self cured.
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I wonder if any doctor was like, it's almost like,
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 3: I don't know, let's say the CIA was firing something
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 3: at him to make him hear voices and then they
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 3: just stopped. I know it wouldn't be that, but it
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 3: seems like that.
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 2: It does sell that, that, isn't it. It does? I mean, yeah,
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 2: they were amazed and then he just you know, in
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 2: two thousand, I think he was released and no one's
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 2: ever heard him since. You know, he's he's a bit
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 2: like Peter bourd. He's been allowed to be just kind
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 2: of forgotten about and pushed under the carpet. You know
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 2: you've heard of D notices. Yeah, I don't know where
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 2: the government in the UK tell the press not to
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 2: cover something, right, Yeah, I think I think with Peter Bourne,
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 2: the whole world is D noticed him. I think all
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 2: the world's media just looked the other way with Peter
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 2: Bourne because the story I've given you is, you know,
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 2: I spent six months on cover all that, but I'm
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 2: certain there's more. You know, you know, I'm deeping a
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 2: lenin and stuff. So I couldn't go as far as
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 2: I wanted to go, and at this kind of this
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 2: article got way bigger than I wanted to get but
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 2: I had to a bit like a lenin. Once once
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 2: you start uncovering the stuff, I need to keep going
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 2: here this is available. You know the world needs to know.
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Peter Bourne seems like he could at least be
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 3: a book of his own.
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 2: Definitely, Yeah, but you know, an objective book, not not
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 2: a Peter Borne book. I think that would be rather
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 2: dull read. But he apparently he hangs out at and
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 2: this is on his Wikipedia because he he does like
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 2: to leave crumbs. Peter he hangs out at a place
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 2: in London, nights Bridge called the Special Forces Club, And
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 2: apparently the Special Forces Club is the Intelligence Security is
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 2: a club for the intelligence and security communities, both military
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 2: and civilian and special forces, along with other organizations individuals
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 2: whose work reflects the ethos of the club, such as
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 2: high threat bomb disposal and members drawn from the psyops community.
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 2: We need to get ourselves down and help that of
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 2: that club.
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 3: I want to have some drinks there for sure.
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 2: The sps QVT as a club for these people.
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 3: I wonder if your drinks just come with LSD in them.
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 3: If you're a visitor, just everyone watches you and sees
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 3: if they pick up any new intel who knows.
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 2: And I mean he's laying it out there. I think
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 2: Peter wants the world to know. I think he's bored.
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 2: I think he's in his late eighties now. I think
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 2: I just want people to know that. I think he's
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 2: proud of being Jason Boord. I think he's proud of
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 2: all the adventures his head.
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah, well something. I mean, if you have enough of
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 3: an ego to put all those breadcrumbs and clues on
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 3: your website, I don't doubt that when you hit eighty
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 3: five ninety, you're going to be like, fuck it, I'm
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 3: telling everyone everything, what are you going to do? Please?
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 3: I agree, Please do it?
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 2: I agree. I couldn't agree more.
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I would not doubt for a second that. I mean,
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 3: of course he was CIA. He's got to be. That's six, Yeah,
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 3: something like that.
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 2: He's probably working for them, you know, maybe in the
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 2: you know the KGB, who knows you know that that
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 2: Castro thing. I just I don't know how you pulled
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 2: that one off. If I had a drink with him
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 2: in his club, not I never want to go into
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 2: a club there hass people in it. But if I
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 2: ever did go in there, the first thing I'd asked,
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 2: is how the fuck did you pull off that Cuba thing?
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 2: Actually Castro's archives. I mean that's just like that's James
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 2: Bond will be proud of that one. That's just like incredible.
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 2: And I'm just to finish off port Ol Lowenstein and
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 2: maybe May Brussell thought this was a very telling point.
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 2: Was buried in Arlington apparently between jeff Karen RK's plots,
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 2: you know, which is very interesting. And you know he
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 2: was in the military for a very short time back
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 2: in the early sixties. Hated it and apparently when he
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 2: was in Germany he decided to have gone for a
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 2: few few days to go down to the wedding of
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 2: Prince Vania and Grace Kelly.
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 3: As one does, as you do.
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 2: And Prince Rainier would you believe wrote a book on
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 2: primates with Jeffrey Bourne. How about that? You want some links,
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 2: I'm going to give I'm going to give you all
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 2: the links. It's a mini it's a series. We need
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 2: to go to Netflix to more and pitch this, Adam.
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 2: This is just you know, awful, This needs to be written. Yeah,
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 2: be ahead of a series.
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree. But in the meantime, thank you for
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 3: doing this. Podcast about it. I appreciate I appreciate you
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 3: reaching out and suggesting this. It's a fascinating story. I
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 3: will link to the article in the show notes so
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 3: people can read it. Still a lot of meat on
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 3: the bones in terms of information in there. And yeah,
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 3: thanks again for being a guest on the pod. What
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 3: do you want people to know or check out.
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 2: Where they can get my substack? Really, you know, there's
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 2: there's this article there. There's lots of letther assassination articles
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 2: on David Wheeler dot subset dot com. Obviously, I think
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 2: he talks about my book at the start Mind Games
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 2: ASSASSINATIONA Jo Lennon still available on Amazon. And thank you
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 2: Adam so much. Shelby, and I love chat with you.
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 2: You don't This stuff's dark, and I love the way
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 2: you don't take it too seriously because's the only way
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 2: you can get through it. Yeah, it takes you down
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 2: this stuff. But but yeah, I hope more comes out
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 2: about Peter Bowen and Mary King and you know, there's
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 2: there's Yeah, I think I think there's going to be
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 2: a lot more to come. Yeah, I just hope it
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 2: comes out while they're still around, you know, you know,
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 2: it's just like, because you.
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 3: Want him to enjoy it. You want him to enjoy
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 3: it fame.
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 2: And I think he would. Yeah, I think it sounds
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 2: like it.
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 3: It sounds like, as for me, my substack will be
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 3: back in action soon. Adam Todd Brown dot substat dot com.
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 3: I had to have a tooth drilled with no novacane
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 3: a couple of weeks, like like they threatened to do
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 3: when you're being tortured, and uh man, has it been
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 3: a recovery? But that's awful, get back to it.
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 2: I just make sure I start hearing voices in your head.
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. Well I think they were taking it out.
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 3: I think I'm all right, okay, carry it out all
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 3: my mentions, so I should stop voices now.
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 2: I thought you were doing it. Dennis Sweeney, Dennis gag.
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 2: But that's actually real. You actually went through that. That
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 2: sounds awful. Yeah.
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I had to have a tooth pulled and there
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 3: was a thing happening where my nerves were so inflamed
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 3: that they couldn't numb the tooth, so they had to
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 3: open it by drilling into it so they could put
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 3: anesthesia right on the nerve. And it was It was bad,
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 3: bad times.
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 2: That's that's that's it was really bad. I'm impressed your
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 2: back up riding a week later.
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 3: Jesus, it has put me up hiding schedule for sure.
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, take a rescue, take it easy.
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 3: Yeah and all right, let's get out of here. David
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 3: say goodbye, goodbye, Thanks Adam, goodbye everybody. We love you.