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GAMERS NEED DISCOURSE · Critical Error

• 0:00
  2025 was the year of discourse.
• 0:02
  >> Oh, what a great take. Did chat GBT come
• 0:04
  up with that? Did you get a little AI to
• 0:06
  come up with it? You don't even know
• 0:07
  what you're talking. Well, you captain
• 0:08
  woke over here. Oh, look at you with
• 0:10
  your
• 0:11
  >> A critical error is an error which the
• 0:13
  OS cannot reasonably ignore. Shake
• 0:16
  Steinberg is a streamer, writer, and
• 0:18
  certified yapper. Complimentary. Peter
• 0:21
  Hunt
• 0:22
  tech is a YouTuber, journalist, and
• 0:25
  certified yapper. Derogatory. These are
• 0:27
  the things they cannot reasonably
• 0:29
  ignore.
• 0:30
  >> More than any other year, I feel like
• 0:32
  2025 was controlled by the narrative.
• 0:35
  The games that had hype, the games that
• 0:37
  had staying power, the ones that we
• 0:39
  talked about on social media, the
• 0:40
  discourse was dominated by games that
• 0:43
  had a degree of weaponization that could
• 0:46
  be used, some kind of online friction
• 0:48
  that made it a hot thing to talk about.
• 0:51
  And I think when you look at the biggest
• 0:53
  games of the year, these are games that
• 0:55
  are not without scandal. They're not
• 0:57
  without online friction. And I think
• 0:59
  that because of this, there were so many
• 1:01
  good games, strong games, well-developed
• 1:04
  games that came out and just like came
• 1:07
  and went that we totally forgot about
• 1:09
  because it didn't have this thing online
• 1:12
  that you could attack or defend or get
• 1:15
  really up in arms, pick up the sword
• 1:17
  about. When Mario Kart World hits your
• 1:19
  brand new Switch 2 on launch day, what
• 1:22
  are you picking up the sword? Who are
• 1:23
  you fighting about online? Where are the
• 1:25
  trolls? Do you get what I'm saying here?
• 1:27
  >> I do. I do. I feel like this hits a
• 1:29
  little bit of what we talked about last
• 1:31
  week to a certain extent. It's a
• 1:32
  different sort of angle on it where like
• 1:35
  all of these games came out as you said.
• 1:37
  Uh and people loved them. You look at
• 1:40
  their Metacritic scores. You look at the
• 1:42
  way people talked about them the week
• 1:43
  that they came out and it's like you
• 1:45
  have to play this game. You are missing
• 1:48
  out if you do not play this game. I have
• 1:50
  never heard anyone say anything about
• 1:53
  the Shringing 2 after it came out. I'M
• 1:55
  SORRY. WOW. WOW.
• 1:56
  >> I liked it. I liked it. I'm actually I'm
• 1:59
  I'm going to I'm working on something
• 2:00
  about Designing 2 because it was there
• 2:03
  was one piece that like sort of stuck
• 2:05
  out to me, but that was it. And I just
• 2:07
  don't I I I I think the way that
• 2:11
  people have sort of like latched on to
• 2:13
  games this year is largely unrelated to
• 2:15
  the games themselves and more about, as
• 2:17
  you identified, the narratives
• 2:18
  surrounding them. A very common
• 2:20
  experience, I imagine, for listeners
• 2:22
  this year was more time was spent
• 2:25
  arguing about a video game online in a
• 2:28
  in a way that was almost devoid of
• 2:32
  actually what the game was or what it
• 2:33
  was doing. Kind of a a a thing about the
• 2:36
  game kind of like dominates the online
• 2:38
  discussion while the entirety of the
• 2:40
  game goes unlitigated. Or I I think a
• 2:43
  lot of the time like a moment from a
• 2:46
  game that is out of context is the thing
• 2:49
  that people are talking about and then
• 2:51
  with the full context people are not
• 2:53
  really talking about it. I think about
• 2:54
  uh Mr. Miles McKenzie in Metroid Prime 4
• 2:57
  that dominated the discourse for a week
• 3:00
  and then Metroid Prime 4 comes out and
• 3:02
  everyone sort of shrugs and goes, "Yeah,
• 3:04
  it's all right." And then I have not
• 3:06
  heard anything about Metroid Prime 4
• 3:08
  since. And I also think I would like to
• 3:09
  preface this conversation too by by
• 3:11
  recognizing the fact that um
• 3:16
  this is entirely subjective based on
• 3:19
  >> our circles, right? Like based on the
• 3:21
  people that we're talking to and the
• 3:22
  people that we like uh uh interact with
• 3:25
  online. Uh so just because I'm saying
• 3:29
  hey nobody's talking about death
• 3:30
  training too. uh that is not
• 3:34
  that I'm talking about like in my
• 3:36
  circle, in my experience online. Of
• 3:38
  course, I just don't think we need to
• 3:39
  cuff that with everything we say here,
• 3:40
  but I think it's worth saying right at
• 3:42
  the top.
• 3:42
  >> Yeah. I like that you bring up the Miles
• 3:44
  McKenzie thing because I think that that
• 3:46
  was maybe the most salient and like like
• 3:51
  marketing beat that that game had
• 3:53
  >> from how you know from however long to
• 3:56
  the game actually coming out. the the
• 3:59
  moment where I feel like there was a
• 4:01
  narrative, the strongest like solid
• 4:03
  tangible narrative around Metroid Prime
• 4:05
  4 was when those previews dropped. I
• 4:08
  think and and then I think that
• 4:10
  conversation, that friction about what
• 4:13
  what did that Miles McKenzie
• 4:14
  conversation represent? It represented
• 4:16
  that this Metroid Prime game was not
• 4:19
  what people wanted or thought of as a
• 4:22
  Metroid Prime experience. And then I
• 4:25
  think you can see very naturally how
• 4:27
  that conversation framed a lot of the
• 4:29
  reviews that came out and how that
• 4:31
  conversation framed a lot of the general
• 4:33
  conversation that happened after that
• 4:35
  game came out. It was kind of situating
• 4:37
  that conversation, the framing of what
• 4:39
  was important because of that really
• 4:41
  strong discourse that emerged from that
• 4:43
  moment on.
• 4:44
  >> Yeah, 100%. And and it's this thing
• 4:46
  where like the discourse surrounding the
• 4:48
  game seemed to be more interesting to
• 4:50
  talk about than the game itself. And you
• 4:52
  know, like you it came out, people
• 4:53
  talked about it on podcasts for that
• 4:55
  week. Maybe they mention it the next
• 4:57
  week where they say like, "Yeah, I'm
• 4:58
  still sort of getting the end of Metroid
• 4:59
  Prime 4." But it's not the sort of thing
• 5:02
  that is
• 5:05
  people liked the game. It scored well.
• 5:06
  It reviewed well. People talked about
• 5:08
  it. A lot of people said, "Hey, this is
• 5:10
  one of my favorites of the year." And
• 5:12
  yet it feels like it disappeared because
• 5:14
  what was more interesting about the game
• 5:16
  was talking about one aspect of the game
• 5:20
  because it was it was hot and then as
• 5:22
  soon as that disappeared is gone.
• 5:24
  >> I want to bring in split fiction.
• 5:27
  >> Welcome pod split fiction. Joseph Ferris
• 5:29
  welcome anytime.
• 5:31
  >> Split fiction uh released in released in
• 5:33
  March of this year. Uh, Split Fiction.
• 5:36
  Currently, if we go to Metacritic's best
• 5:38
  reviewed games of the year, if we
• 5:40
  eliminate the two Legend of Zelda Switch
• 5:43
  2 editions that are at the top of this
• 5:45
  list, there are three games above Split
• 5:49
  Fiction. Uh, Blueprints, Clare Obscure
• 5:52
  Expedition 33, and Hades 2. Split
• 5:55
  Fiction the fourth best reviewed game on
• 5:58
  the year of the year according to
• 6:00
  Metacritic.
• 6:02
  I think if you take a glance, a gander
• 6:05
  at
• 6:06
  year-end lists published by most
• 6:08
  outlets, I I think that a commonly
• 6:12
  missed game if you are going to look at
• 6:14
  the games that surrounded on this list.
• 6:16
  So again, Hades 2, Expedition 33,
• 6:18
  Blueprints. Now below Split Fiction,
• 6:20
  Donkey Kong Bonanza, Hollow Knight 6,
• 6:22
  Silkong, Despalote. I think out of all
• 6:24
  of the games I just listed, Split
• 6:26
  Fiction is the most likely title to be
• 6:29
  left off of these year-end lists. And
• 6:33
  >> I think that this demonstrates how
• 6:35
  important discussion around the game is,
• 6:38
  what people talk about with this game is
• 6:41
  to kind of these reflections of um
• 6:46
  what's important, what we want to
• 6:47
  represent us, what we think is a
• 6:49
  valuable game. Because split fiction is
• 6:51
  the rare instance of a game having
• 6:54
  negative online aura. Whatever people
• 6:57
  get out of saying putting Despalote on
• 7:00
  their list, whatever people get out of
• 7:02
  putting and Roger on their list,
• 7:04
  whatever people get out of putting
• 7:05
  Hollow Night Silk Song on their list,
• 7:07
  whatever that quality is, you get the
• 7:10
  opposite. You get negative from putting
• 7:12
  split fiction on your list because it is
• 7:14
  seen as dumb. It is seen as a game that
• 7:17
  to appreciate what it is doing,
• 7:19
  particularly on a narrative level, you
• 7:21
  must be a baboon. You must be like like
• 7:24
  an actual little weirdo. And it's it's
• 7:27
  like embarrassing to have that on a list
• 7:28
  that is representing you at the end of
• 7:30
  the year. While at the same time, we can
• 7:32
  all agree objectively objectively this
• 7:34
  is one of the best reviewed games of the
• 7:36
  year by far. And it's so funny, right?
• 7:38
  Because it's like I don't feel that way.
• 7:39
  You I don't think feel that way about
• 7:41
  like if someone had split fiction on
• 7:42
  their list, it's like, "Oh, great.
• 7:43
  Awesome. It's it was a fun game. could
• 7:45
  be on my list.
• 7:46
  >> But it's it is this thing where it's
• 7:48
  like but yeah, if you put it on your top
• 7:50
  10 list, I think people are going to be
• 7:51
  like, "Really?"
• 7:52
  >> Yeah.
• 7:53
  >> Split Fiction, the number four best
• 7:55
  reviewed game of the year that when it
• 7:57
  came out, everyone said you must play.
• 7:58
  It's it's Hazelite Studios best game
• 8:00
  they've ever made. And what's critical
• 8:02
  here, Peter, is that I think that this
• 8:04
  is directly the the the causal situation
• 8:07
  that we're looking at is because the
• 8:09
  discourse surrounding split fiction is
• 8:11
  that the story is bad and embarrassing
• 8:14
  and stupid and that has then controlled
• 8:17
  how people think of that
• 8:18
  >> going to remember it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
• 8:20
  Yeah.
• 8:20
  >> Yes. Yes. Exactly. So, it has changed
• 8:22
  the narrative because the discourse that
• 8:24
  emerged is that this is stupid and
• 8:26
  embarrassing. And just a quick note on
• 8:27
  split fiction, everybody listen, that is
• 8:29
  a it is a rare instance of a game just
• 8:32
  being absolutely destroyed by how bad
• 8:37
  its story is in a very specific way. But
• 8:39
  I do want to make a little a little note
• 8:41
  here that there are narrative elements
• 8:44
  in that game that are quite good. I
• 8:46
  don't know if you even played it, but I
• 8:48
  did.
• 8:49
  >> There is Okay. There is kind of a funny
• 8:52
  situation in that game where two
• 8:53
  characters I think are on like a
• 8:55
  motorcycle or something and one has to
• 8:56
  >> unlock the phone. The phone is the best
• 8:58
  part of that whole game
• 9:00
  >> and they have to go through the
• 9:01
  >> Yes. Cuz I was doing the phone part and
• 9:03
  and my friend Josh was doing the the
• 9:05
  other I don't know what he was doing cuz
• 9:06
  I was locked in the funniest gag in a
• 9:10
  game
• 9:11
  >> in like a long time. That's like a
• 9:14
  Portal 2 level ass gag that is just like
• 9:16
  no this is good. This is quite funny.
• 9:18
  >> Yeah. and and that's writing and there
• 9:21
  are a lot of video gamey ideas that
• 9:24
  emerge and kind of tell their story and
• 9:27
  then the video game idea ends and then
• 9:29
  they move on to another thing and there
• 9:31
  so like it's a lot of this has to do
• 9:32
  with the way that we talk about
• 9:33
  narrative just just a little just a
• 9:34
  little I just want to give a tip of my
• 9:35
  cap to split fiction I don't I don't
• 9:37
  want to be like oh if you like this game
• 9:38
  you're an ape but that was the
• 9:41
  >> no which to be clear that is not what
• 9:42
  the position is it is that that is how
• 9:45
  other people view it feels this game
• 9:48
  >> yes of course and and I understand why
• 9:50
  there are embarrassing things about the
• 9:52
  narrative. The way that that game
• 9:54
  deploys the word story in a game that is
• 9:57
  obsessed with stories makes me think
• 9:58
  that they don't know what a story is and
• 10:01
  that quite embarrassing. But um the way
• 10:04
  that that narrative was able to kind of
• 10:05
  like grab hold and I think affect how
• 10:08
  people now reflect on that game at the
• 10:10
  end of the year. Um, but then I think if
• 10:13
  we look at some other games, if we
• 10:14
  broaden our views,
• 10:16
  >> you will find that a lot of games
• 10:20
  sustained attention and were able to
• 10:24
  operate online, especially kind of like
• 10:27
  in these social spaces we're talking
• 10:28
  about simply because
• 10:31
  there was a, for lack of a better word,
• 10:33
  maybe a scandal associated with them
• 10:36
  there.
• 10:36
  >> Yeah. I think just generalized discourse
• 10:39
  about a game.
• 10:40
  >> Thank you. M
• 10:41
  >> um right you know it's really easy to
• 10:43
  point to some of these you know like
• 10:44
  clear obscure the discourse was the
• 10:47
  story of the game's development and then
• 10:50
  on top of that there were a billion
• 10:51
  different discourses right about how
• 10:53
  there you know it's like oh only 30
• 10:55
  people made this game and then it's like
• 10:56
  no more than 30 people made this game
• 10:59
  and oh you know but how did they all
• 11:01
  meet and it's such an interesting
• 11:02
  inspiring story and all that sort of
• 11:04
  stuff which is is I think part of and we
• 11:07
  talked about this a little bit last week
• 11:08
  part of what gripped people so much
• 11:10
  about that game is that it is this sort
• 11:12
  of feel-good interesting discourse and
• 11:14
  narrative and all that.
• 11:15
  >> And every time I've kind of brought this
• 11:17
  up, I've had some people online be like,
• 11:19
  "Jake, what are you talking about? I
• 11:21
  don't I didn't see this discourse at
• 11:22
  all." So, I do want to, but then the
• 11:23
  people that have experienced it are
• 11:25
  like, "Jake, you did not invent this.
• 11:26
  This is a real thing." Uh, there is a
• 11:28
  kind of weird discourse surrounding
• 11:31
  Expedition 33 about its relationship to
• 11:34
  Japanese RPGs. And uh yes,
• 11:37
  >> this is something that like I am not in
• 11:39
  these particular circles online, but I
• 11:41
  do know it is a like engine of discourse
• 11:45
  that has kind of sustained all year. So
• 11:47
  I do want to bring it up and talk about
• 11:49
  how I think this did contribute to the
• 11:52
  game being as big as it was. Um, so I
• 11:55
  want to point to there was an article
• 11:57
  that came out back in August on GameSpot
• 11:59
  by Jess Reyes called Clarecure
• 12:01
  Expedition 33 is great, but its
• 12:03
  popularity raises big questions about
• 12:05
  how we view Japanese RPGs. Um, and in
• 12:09
  that piece, just to read a quick bit,
• 12:11
  Clare Obscure success also magn
• 12:13
  magnified criticisms of Japanese
• 12:15
  turn-based games, only some of which are
• 12:18
  deserved. Finally, the haters said, "A
• 12:20
  turnbased RPG that is actually good, as
• 12:24
  if those don't already exist." So this
• 12:27
  weird
• 12:29
  discourse kind of emerged about uh
• 12:32
  anti-Japanese
• 12:34
  bias in video games and a certain class
• 12:37
  of video gamer that is like oh because
• 12:41
  this doesn't have maybe the cultural
• 12:42
  trappings of a JRPG, people are much
• 12:45
  more open to trying it when there maybe
• 12:47
  would be all of these games that if they
• 12:49
  were Yeah. So so that's kind of like the
• 12:52
  heart of what that discourse is. And I
• 12:54
  do think that the
• 12:56
  size, the appeal, the the staying power
• 13:00
  online of Expedition 33 at least is in
• 13:03
  small part to having this
• 13:07
  uh well-meaning
• 13:09
  kind of class of video game player
• 13:12
  praise and love this game, but also this
• 13:15
  weaponized kind of understudied
• 13:20
  group of people using it to forward a
• 13:24
  narrative that is maybe not so good.
• 13:27
  >> Yeah. It's interesting too like a game
• 13:28
  like Clear Obscure like just there were
• 13:30
  so many different like
• 13:32
  >> layers to it that you could then
• 13:35
  discourse about, right? Cuz I also like
• 13:38
  right now, literally right now this
• 13:40
  morning, uh everyone's being like, "Hey,
• 13:42
  did we all forget that Clear Obscure had
• 13:43
  like Gen AI content in it when it
• 13:45
  launched?" Which is interesting. Like I
• 13:48
  I never heard about this, but sure,
• 13:51
  let's talk about this now, too, you
• 13:52
  know. Um, but then, you know, I I turned
• 13:54
  my eyes to something like like Hollow
• 13:56
  Night. Hollow Knight dominated the
• 13:59
  conversation leading up to its launch
• 14:01
  and then it launches and then I in my
• 14:03
  circle haven't really seen a whole lot
• 14:04
  of people talking about it. Um, that's
• 14:07
  not to say that people aren't, right?
• 14:09
  Uh, people are it's it's particularly
• 14:11
  big on YouTube. Um, and and within like
• 14:14
  the Hollow Night community, people are
• 14:15
  still just loving it. But when it comes
• 14:17
  to um like a lot of like the games media
• 14:19
  class of people that we that we talk
• 14:21
  about a lot on the show, it feels like
• 14:22
  it kind of disappeared because there
• 14:23
  honestly wasn't a whole lot of discourse
• 14:26
  surrounding it after it came out. People
• 14:28
  were talking about difficulty discourse
• 14:30
  and run boss runbacks and stuff like
• 14:31
  that. But like that's all played out,
• 14:35
  right? Like it's I don't think Hollow
• 14:36
  Knight was adding anything new to the
• 14:37
  conversation other than a lot of people
• 14:39
  saying like, "Hey, I don't like this."
• 14:41
  And that's it, you know, for the most
• 14:43
  part. Obviously, I'm simplifying, but
• 14:45
  >> there is a kind of person that I think
• 14:48
  maybe likes participating in discussions
• 14:51
  about video games on Reddit, on forums
• 14:54
  more than they like or maybe spends more
• 14:57
  time doing those things than they
• 14:58
  actually do playing video games. Yeah.
• 15:01
  And I wonder too, just because the
• 15:03
  premise of this podcast, how we talk
• 15:05
  about games, if this exposes a certain
• 15:08
  level of inadequacy in being able to
• 15:13
  drudge meaning out of the text itself,
• 15:16
  as opposed to to being in conversation
• 15:19
  with what the narrative surrounding the
• 15:21
  game is, because I think you'll agree
• 15:22
  with me, the biggest narrative, the most
• 15:25
  amount of discourse surrounding Hollite
• 15:27
  Silkong was its absence, was its where
• 15:31
  is it? When is it going to come out? And
• 15:33
  I think we saw the most online material
• 15:37
  discussion about the game when they
• 15:38
  announced their release date and all of
• 15:40
  those other games had to move out of the
• 15:42
  way.
• 15:43
  >> Yeah.
• 15:43
  >> You know what's interesting too about
• 15:45
  this is and and again 7 million people
• 15:48
  played Hollow Night Silkong. Like that's
• 15:50
  like astounding. People are talking
• 15:52
  about this, but I think we're talking
• 15:53
  about like the reason this is all like
• 15:55
  on the mind for for us is as these like
• 15:57
  game of the year lists kind of come out.
• 16:00
  Um, and you see, you know, here's the
• 16:01
  top 10 games and it's all the same games
• 16:03
  and they're like pretty much in the same
• 16:05
  order. And then you sort of like go and
• 16:07
  if you're like me, uh, and you're an
• 16:09
  insane person, I then go and I will like
• 16:11
  look at the people who like write for
• 16:12
  that publication. I'm like, what are you
• 16:14
  saying about these games? Whatever. And
• 16:15
  it's like what we're saying where like
• 16:17
  then you look at what they're saying and
• 16:18
  like the game just disappears and it's
• 16:20
  gone except for when it launched. um
• 16:22
  often times and like what I find so kind
• 16:26
  of like fascinating is
• 16:33
  when these stories come out, when like
• 16:35
  the discourses about the game show up, I
• 16:38
  often times am like trying to like get
• 16:39
  to the bottom of, hey, is the game good
• 16:42
  or are we just talking about it,
• 16:44
  >> right?
• 16:45
  >> You know what I mean? Like like is is
• 16:46
  the game actually good or are we just
• 16:48
  talking about it this week? Is there
• 16:49
  gonna be more to say about it than than
• 16:51
  whatever uh uh than than whatever like
• 16:54
  we're just saying this one week? And you
• 16:55
  know, you sort of just hit on this idea
• 16:57
  of like um it's important now and then
• 17:01
  maybe it's not important later. And if
• 17:03
  it's not important later, then is it any
• 17:04
  good? And like that's for me as someone
• 17:06
  who like does not have like, you know,
• 17:07
  infinite cash to pick up every single
• 17:09
  video game that comes out. Sometimes I'm
• 17:11
  like, is it actually that good or did
• 17:14
  you just get to play it and now you're
• 17:15
  talking about it and then it's gone next
• 17:17
  week or two weeks or whatever? Yeah,
• 17:19
  it's funny. It makes me wonder if this
• 17:22
  is a symptom of our current media
• 17:25
  landscape because most people will meet
• 17:29
  a video game for the first time not
• 17:31
  through playing it but through a
• 17:34
  conversation about it. The first
• 17:36
  exposure to a video game is like a
• 17:38
  controversy or a take. So by the time
• 17:40
  somebody interacts with a game, the kind
• 17:42
  of like framing of it, the meaning of
• 17:44
  what they are parsing has already been
• 17:47
  decided and it becomes increasingly
• 17:50
  difficult to find meaning on your own
• 17:53
  because you are involved in a
• 17:55
  conversation from the moment that you
• 17:57
  encounter a game, right?
• 17:59
  >> Yeah. It's it's interesting too because
• 18:00
  it's like
• 18:02
  >> depending on when like it's usually and
• 18:04
  for me it's usually the proximity of
• 18:06
  when the game was released
• 18:07
  >> will be decide what uh will decide what
• 18:10
  discourse you get and if it's closer to
• 18:12
  the game release usually it's the better
• 18:13
  it's like people are saying it's really
• 18:15
  good and then the further away you are
• 18:16
  people saying it's really bad. I think
• 18:18
  about Mario Kart World. Um, that's a
• 18:20
  game that when it came out, everyone's
• 18:20
  like, "Oh my gosh, it's good. It's good.
• 18:22
  It's so good. It's so good." And then
• 18:23
  like three weeks later, people were
• 18:25
  like, "Hey, it's actually pretty bad."
• 18:28
  And it's interesting because actually I
• 18:29
  I like the game quite a bit. Um, and I
• 18:32
  think a lot of the things that people
• 18:34
  are saying about it when they're like
• 18:35
  saying, "Oh, it's bad." are a lot of the
• 18:37
  things that they were saying were good,
• 18:40
  you know, just two weeks before. And and
• 18:43
  it's so interesting because I'm like,
• 18:44
  okay, but like how are we making this
• 18:45
  dis this distinction? And and
• 18:49
  >> why is it that that those things are
• 18:52
  good right when the game comes out, but
• 18:54
  then 3 weeks later they are bad? Is it
• 18:56
  the sort of idea that like, hey, we just
• 18:57
  actually sat on this and like the more
• 18:59
  you play it and the longer you you're
• 19:00
  exposed to it, it's actually not quite
• 19:01
  as as solid as you once thought or like
• 19:03
  how does all that work? And I find it to
• 19:05
  be kind of fascinating. You know what I
• 19:06
  mean?
• 19:06
  >> You know, it's it's funny. I actually
• 19:07
  think that Split Fiction and Mario Kart
• 19:09
  World have more in common than you might
• 19:10
  initially think. And it's it's this
• 19:12
  funny thing where I play Mario Kart
• 19:15
  World and I find the most expressive
• 19:18
  Mario Kart game I've ever played. Not
• 19:20
  just in terms of the literal characters
• 19:22
  being expressive, but the kind of mental
• 19:25
  stack of your possibilities, what is
• 19:27
  available to you as you are driving.
• 19:28
  That's why I like it so much. I felt
• 19:30
  like Mario Kart 8 Deluxe, I was kind of
• 19:31
  on autopilot. And uh I've I've described
• 19:34
  the getting new uh tracks in Mario Kart
• 19:37
  8 Deluxe felt like getting skins for
• 19:39
  tracks. like no matter what I was doing,
• 19:41
  it kind of became invisible and I was
• 19:43
  doing the same thing all the time.
• 19:44
  Whereas in Mario Kart World, the
• 19:46
  addition of the the the grinding, the
• 19:48
  jumping, the all this different stuff,
• 19:50
  the I just found it to be more like I
• 19:54
  have moments where I go, I have to make
• 19:55
  a choice about what I'm going to pursue
• 19:57
  right now and can I execute it in a way
• 19:59
  that I really really like.
• 20:01
  >> It's that idea like what you're saying
• 20:02
  where like the old levels were just sort
• 20:04
  of skins for you to sort of engage with
• 20:07
  the exact same way you engage with
• 20:08
  everything else. Whereas the levels in
• 20:10
  Mario Kart World, you're trying to like
• 20:12
  decide like how am I going to get
• 20:13
  through this and like like what path am
• 20:16
  I going to take and and are there skills
• 20:18
  that I'm going to have to apply to get
• 20:20
  through it?
• 20:20
  >> Oh my god. But dude, and then um
• 20:22
  Knockout Tour, which I find to be the
• 20:25
  >> I love it's good. It's quite good.
• 20:27
  >> The intensity of a race finishing, they
• 20:31
  found a way to compound that feeling so
• 20:34
  it happens constantly over the course of
• 20:36
  a long gauntlet. So, it's like the most
• 20:38
  interesting part of a race. It's not the
• 20:40
  part where you're like sandbagging and
• 20:42
  you're like, "Okay, then it's going to
• 20:43
  get real at the end." It's like that
• 20:45
  just keeps happening over and over
• 20:46
  again. And I can say all this great
• 20:48
  stuff about Mario Kart World, but I
• 20:50
  think what happens is that Mario Kart
• 20:52
  World comes out and there's a certain
• 20:54
  kind of person that sticks with the game
• 20:57
  that gets to decide what the discourse
• 20:59
  is. And then you kind of see people
• 21:01
  taking their cues about what the correct
• 21:04
  answer is, the correct response to that
• 21:06
  game is based on who those people are.
• 21:09
  We actually talked about this a little
• 21:10
  bit earlier in the year with the kind of
• 21:13
  relitigation of Borderlands 3 before
• 21:15
  Borderlands 4 came out.
• 21:16
  >> Oh yeah, exactly. Yes.
• 21:18
  >> And it was this funny thing where like
• 21:19
  Borderlands 3 reviews very well. I like
• 21:21
  that game a lot. But then in the years
• 21:23
  following its release, one narrative
• 21:25
  emerges about that game, which is nobody
• 21:27
  liked this. And you will find Actually,
• 21:30
  >> yes. In every leadup to Borderlands 4,
• 21:32
  even in many of the reviews for
• 21:34
  Borderlands 4, there was this reference
• 21:36
  back to a Borderlands 3 that didn't even
• 21:38
  exist that they were like, "Don't worry,
• 21:39
  they've fixed that thing that you all
• 21:41
  liked." And it was Yeah. So, it was very
• 21:44
  weird. So, but anyways, I I bring up
• 21:46
  this comparison to Split Fiction because
• 21:47
  I do think that it's like this game that
• 21:49
  everybody plays it and they go, I like
• 21:50
  this. I have things to say about this.
• 21:52
  But then the narrative takes hold and
• 21:55
  the narrative is able to rewrite the
• 21:58
  identity of what that game was. I would
• 22:00
  even say this happened with the original
• 22:02
  Kirby Air Ride on the Gamecube we've
• 22:04
  talked about. I think the Yeah, the the
• 22:06
  narrative is able to rewrite the legacy
• 22:08
  and kind of the lasting conversation
• 22:10
  about that game and maybe make it more
• 22:12
  or less important than it ever was.
• 22:16
  >> Yeah, 100%. And it's interesting too
• 22:18
  like like I'm just looking at this list
• 22:20
  on on Metacritic of just you know the
• 22:21
  year's best scoring games and and um we
• 22:24
  will at some point eventually do a video
• 22:27
  or a podcast about Metacritic as a
• 22:30
  concept
• 22:31
  >> certainly. Um but you know it is a
• 22:33
  helpful tool to just like see like yeah
• 22:34
  what scored well this year? What what
• 22:35
  resonated with people in reviews? Um and
• 22:38
  and I look at you know here we got
• 22:39
  number 35 on here scoring 86 Ghost of
• 22:42
  Yote. And this is a video. This is a
• 22:45
  game that that has like popped up on a
• 22:46
  lot of these end of the year lists. But
• 22:48
  what's so interesting is is
• 22:51
  I don't feel like anyone is is really
• 22:54
  engaging with the g with what the game
• 22:56
  actually is and what it's actually
• 22:57
  trying to do and what it's actually
• 22:58
  telling you when they talk about it
• 23:01
  >> because like
• 23:04
  I don't know maybe this is a different
• 23:05
  different sort of problem I'm I'm
• 23:07
  talking about here but like um
• 23:10
  that is a game that I feel like
• 23:13
  came and went faster than anything this
• 23:15
  year. Uh uh and and it feels like it
• 23:18
  ends up on these lists because it's kind
• 23:20
  of an like obligation of just like well
• 23:22
  it was a really good-looking game that
• 23:24
  was a little bit more of that combat
• 23:25
  that I liked from Ghost of Tsushima. Um
• 23:27
  do you know what I mean?
• 23:28
  >> I do. Um add to this conversation
• 23:30
  though.
• 23:31
  >> No, no, no. This reminds me of um one of
• 23:35
  my favorite authors, Todd Coots. M
• 23:37
  >> uh he talks about in between uh the
• 23:41
  world and me how people
• 23:45
  and people and cultures kind of
• 23:48
  construct narratives and beliefs for the
• 23:51
  sake of maintaining their the identity
• 23:54
  of the self. So even when there is like
• 23:57
  evidence to the contrary, there is kind
• 24:00
  of this this sense of self that is like
• 24:02
  really important to maintain. And I
• 24:05
  found that maybe the bulk of the
• 24:08
  discourse surrounding Ghosts of Yotay,
• 24:10
  the most tangible way I saw that game
• 24:12
  talked about online was maintained and
• 24:15
  manufactured by this kind of like
• 24:18
  Gamergate anti-
• 24:20
  >> Yeah. Yeah.
• 24:21
  >> Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it was the um
• 24:26
  displacement of this male protagonist
• 24:29
  for the sake of this, you know, uh N
• 24:34
  binary actor playing a woman.
• 24:36
  >> Yeah.
• 24:37
  >> And Yeah. And that was kind of like the
• 24:39
  the tangible discourse there. And I
• 24:41
  wonder if the
• 24:45
  sense of self, this maintaining this
• 24:47
  identity, uh, if having a a particular
• 24:51
  opinion about a game, we'll talk about
• 24:53
  with something like Arc Raiders, uh,
• 24:55
  being able to show people you are
• 24:59
  anti-AI
• 25:00
  through a kind of social performance. Is
• 25:03
  there
• 25:04
  >> is there is there maybe not a social
• 25:06
  performance attached to saying I like
• 25:10
  >> Atsu in this game?
• 25:12
  >> It's and obviously I'm not trying to
• 25:14
  levy that people are like faking that
• 25:16
  they that they like this character.
• 25:17
  Obviously not. That's that's not what
• 25:19
  I'm trying to say. But I am trying to
• 25:20
  say that there there is something
• 25:23
  important to people in how they talk
• 25:24
  about games that is a representation of
• 25:26
  the self.
• 25:27
  >> Yes. So like it's interesting in in my
• 25:30
  video critiquing the game. Um, obviously
• 25:33
  I I think I think it goes without
• 25:35
  saying, but to make it clear, the reason
• 25:37
  why I don't like as a character has
• 25:39
  nothing to do with the fact that she's a
• 25:40
  woman.
• 25:41
  >> Uh, obviously. But it's this thing where
• 25:43
  in the comments of that video, there
• 25:45
  were people saying like, "Oh, great.
• 25:47
  Another grifter just hating this game
• 25:49
  cuz it's a lady." And I'm like, "No, no,
• 25:51
  no. Atu as a woman and Erica Isi as a I
• 25:54
  think non-binary, maybe gender fluid
• 25:56
  person." Um, that has nothing to do with
• 25:59
  what I don't like about this game. And
• 26:01
  you know, if you watch my video, you can
• 26:02
  I outline very clearly what I don't like
• 26:04
  about this game. Um, but I think that if
• 26:08
  you are to bring a
• 26:12
  negative
• 26:14
  take to the table of Ghost of Yote, you
• 26:18
  have to worry about being seen as the
• 26:21
  people who do
• 26:23
  >> hate the game because of of the the
• 26:26
  gender identity of the character and and
• 26:28
  the actor and and all of that sort of
• 26:30
  thing. Um, which is complicated. And to
• 26:33
  your point, I'm also not saying that
• 26:35
  anyone who says they like the game is
• 26:36
  pretending because they're trying to be
• 26:39
  woke or whatever or perceived as that or
• 26:41
  whatever. That's not what I'm getting at
• 26:43
  here. Um because you can certainly like
• 26:46
  those things. You can certainly like the
• 26:48
  game and and have it not be nothing to
• 26:50
  do with with all that in the same way
• 26:52
  that I don't like the game and it has
• 26:53
  nothing to do with that,
• 26:54
  >> of course. But do I think that the
• 26:56
  existence of the anti-woke narrative
• 26:59
  makes it maybe to some people more
• 27:02
  important that they are outspoken about
• 27:05
  liking something that they do like?
• 27:07
  Maybe it does.
• 27:08
  >> I would rather be shot in the chest with
• 27:09
  a rifle than have anyone perceive me as
• 27:10
  a homophobe.
• 27:11
  >> Do you know what I mean? Like I would
• 27:13
  rather be drawn and quartered than have
• 27:15
  anyone like think that I am transphobic
• 27:18
  or anything like that. I I really uh
• 27:21
  don't want anyone to walk away from my
• 27:24
  distaste for that game with that being
• 27:26
  their perspective of me. So like
• 27:29
  >> I think then yeah I I do think that like
• 27:31
  there is going to be an ele potentially
• 27:33
  an elevated sense of like you have to
• 27:35
  play this game. It is so good. But some
• 27:39
  of the re some of that reason might be
• 27:41
  because it's like well we want to
• 27:42
  champion the fact that this game is a
• 27:45
  has a protagonist that is a woman with
• 27:47
  an actor that is I I should maybe
• 27:50
  clarify if they're a gender uh
• 27:52
  non-binary or or gender fluid. I think
• 27:53
  there is a difference there that is not
• 27:56
  to my understanding here. Um but uh
• 27:58
  regardless of of what that exact
• 28:02
  definition is,
• 28:04
  you don't want to come across like you
• 28:05
  are you are being you are aiding to the
• 28:08
  people who are are criticizing it
• 28:09
  because of that. And so I think
• 28:11
  sometimes we we maybe over uh
• 28:14
  overcompensate maybe I don't know.
• 28:17
  >> Yeah, of course. And I I think what's
• 28:18
  important here a couple of things. First
• 28:20
  I think it is very easy for anybody to
• 28:21
  see what we are trying to describe in
• 28:23
  the inverse relationship. Do people who
• 28:27
  are these kind of like anti-woke
• 28:28
  grifters, do they go into a video game
• 28:33
  and
• 28:34
  ready not to like it, ready to hate it
• 28:36
  and then kind of perform hating it even
• 28:38
  if they even if they don't even really
• 28:40
  hate it that much. Like we know that
• 28:42
  that is true. We know that that's true.
• 28:45
  And then it's like does that create a
• 28:49
  media and online environment where if
• 28:53
  you have a voice in this space it
• 28:56
  becomes more important for you to say
• 29:00
  something. Maybe it does. Maybe some
• 29:01
  people feel that pressure. Either way, I
• 29:04
  think that the counterweight, the kind
• 29:06
  of, oh man, there is this bad faith
• 29:09
  discourse out in the world is still
• 29:11
  discourse and that creates attention on
• 29:15
  a game that makes it seem more important
• 29:17
  to comment on it than it prior than it
• 29:19
  might have previously. A great example
• 29:21
  of this over the past week, the uh Lords
• 29:25
  of the Help me out here.
• 29:26
  >> Oh my gosh. Uh uh yeah, Lords of the
• 29:29
  Fallen 2
• 29:31
  getting in the news to say that there
• 29:32
  will be scantily clad sexy women that'll
• 29:36
  horn you up when you're playing your
• 29:37
  little souls. Like I'm talking fully
• 29:40
  erect attention when you sexy women in a
• 29:43
  video game. I can't what what
• 29:46
  >> and um and I'm sure you saw not that not
• 29:48
  to say it's untrue but not to say it's
• 29:51
  untrue at all actually but is there a
• 29:54
  kind of socially performative
• 29:56
  prerogative to kind of speak up and say
• 29:58
  I don't like this in a way that is
• 30:00
  representative of the cell.
• 30:02
  >> Yes.
• 30:03
  >> Certainly. Yeah.
• 30:03
  >> Yes. And I Right. So that's that's all
• 30:06
  we're that's that's all I'm kind of
• 30:07
  trying to say is that like that story
• 30:09
  became a story and it wasn't just
• 30:12
  because you had all of the anti-woke
• 30:15
  people going yay boobies. It was because
• 30:18
  the yay boobies created a need for kind
• 30:22
  of like a counternarrative and that
• 30:24
  raises the popularity of a game in the
• 30:27
  general space just across the board.
• 30:29
  >> Yeah. Do you think which real quick by
• 30:30
  the way to clarify Erica Ishi is gender
• 30:33
  fluid? Uh, okay. I don't know if they're
• 30:35
  gonna come up again, but I figured might
• 30:37
  as well clarify that. Um, but do you
• 30:40
  think that like part of the reason why
• 30:42
  whoever from the Lords of the Fallen
• 30:44
  team decided to come out and say that is
• 30:47
  because their trailer dropped uh and
• 30:49
  then it was kind of like, okay, not much
• 30:52
  to say about it. Looks like, you know,
• 30:55
  another one of those games from this
• 30:57
  studio and then it was like, well, we
• 30:58
  need to have some sort of press about
• 30:59
  this. let's get in the public and by
• 31:01
  starting a discourse about this. Do you
• 31:03
  think that do you think it's like
• 31:04
  motivated or do you think it just
• 31:05
  happens?
• 31:06
  >> Uh it's motivated. Uh meaning is harder
• 31:09
  to monetize than discourse. And I think
• 31:11
  that
• 31:13
  >> discourse creates
• 31:15
  clips and quotes and replies and and you
• 31:18
  know I I think that like uh platforms
• 31:20
  prioritize noise. So, if you can create
• 31:24
  a little bit of discourse, all that does
• 31:26
  is give your game a higher footprint, a
• 31:29
  larger footprint on the internet. Uh,
• 31:32
  what's that old adage? All PR, all press
• 31:34
  is good.
• 31:34
  >> All press is good press. Yeah.
• 31:35
  >> There you go. That's I mean, that's it,
• 31:37
  right?
• 31:38
  >> Yeah. No, I I agree. Um, it's
• 31:41
  infuriating. I find it so frustrating
• 31:43
  >> and it really I think works uh in these
• 31:46
  games favor because
• 31:49
  >> you know arguing online feels like
• 31:53
  engagement and I think engagement will
• 31:56
  feel like belonging and I think if you
• 31:59
  can get people
• 32:00
  >> arguing about a game online you will
• 32:03
  create a an extremely valuable
• 32:06
  attachment and a fan somebody who is
• 32:09
  again this representation of the self
• 32:11
  once you start arguing in favor of
• 32:12
  something online. This game is now
• 32:14
  important to how you kind of
• 32:16
  selfidentify. It is important that you
• 32:18
  are the kind of person who is in support
• 32:21
  or against these kinds of things.
• 32:23
  >> Do you think that
• 32:26
  is is the lesson for 2026
• 32:29
  >> fla looking ahead is it like we need to
• 32:33
  have for a game to be remembered it
• 32:35
  needs to have the biggest discourse
• 32:37
  imaginable. Do you think that's what the
• 32:38
  lesson is? Because, you know, I look at
• 32:40
  I I am looking at the, you know, the
• 32:41
  best reviewed games of the year. These
• 32:43
  games are all for the most part, a lot
• 32:44
  of them are on these, you know, end of
• 32:47
  the year lists and are are being
• 32:48
  remembered through the year, whatever.
• 32:50
  But the ones that I'm like, oh my gosh,
• 32:52
  the ones that are always at the top of
• 32:53
  these lists are the ones that did
• 32:54
  generate the most discourse. I'm looking
• 32:56
  at Clare Obscure, right? I mean, like
• 32:58
  there were just so many different layers
• 32:59
  to it. And you know, even, you know, I
• 33:01
  said like Holl Night Silk Song kind of
• 33:02
  came and went, but that is in my
• 33:04
  experience usually like the number two
• 33:05
  or number three on these lists. And even
• 33:08
  though I'm saying like I don't think it
• 33:09
  generated a ton of like meaningful
• 33:10
  discourse, there were like multiple
• 33:12
  pieces of it, right, with the difficulty
• 33:14
  discourse and then also the like the um
• 33:18
  development team sized discourse which
• 33:20
  is pretty much just reitating what was
• 33:22
  talked about with Clare Obscure, but um
• 33:23
  you know what I Like like do you think
• 33:24
  that in the future not not I don't think
• 33:27
  it's necessarily going to be intentional
• 33:28
  but do you think that it is this idea
• 33:30
  that like hey you're going to be able to
• 33:31
  tell what game is going to be the most
• 33:34
  popular based on the size of the
• 33:37
  conversation that happened around it.
• 33:39
  >> Yes.
• 33:41
  >> Yeah.
• 33:41
  >> Yes. I mean I mean yes I I don't think
• 33:43
  that this is unlike how we got our most
• 33:47
  recent president to be honest with you.
• 33:49
  I like I
• 33:52
  >> Yeah. I I find this to just be a trend
• 33:54
  of the time that we live in. Um it is a
• 33:57
  Yeah, please.
• 33:58
  >> You know what's something something kind
• 33:59
  of interesting is I'm thinking about
• 34:00
  Destiny 2. Uh because it's a game that I
• 34:03
  passively liked and and like I said, I'm
• 34:04
  going to make something about it at the
• 34:05
  end of the year here. Um even though I
• 34:07
  didn't finish it, but I remember Hideoko
• 34:10
  Kojima talking about how and I don't
• 34:12
  know if this is true or not, but he did
• 34:15
  say this. Um he said that that they had
• 34:18
  play testers come in and and you know
• 34:21
  give Destiny 2 a shot at a certain point
• 34:24
  and uh they
• 34:26
  all had a pretty even consensus on how
• 34:29
  they felt about it and he didn't like
• 34:31
  that and so he wanted to make it more
• 34:32
  controversial so he changed so they
• 34:33
  changed a bunch of stuff
• 34:34
  >> right
• 34:35
  >> um I I don't know if that's true or not
• 34:38
  >> um but I wonder if
• 34:41
  that sort of mentality
• 34:44
  was an attempt to make at a game that
• 34:46
  had a lot of conversation surrounding
• 34:49
  it. And I wonder if the fact that um you
• 34:53
  know, in my perspective, in my circles
• 34:54
  and whatever, people are largely not
• 34:57
  talking about this game a whole lot. I
• 34:59
  wonder if that is a measure of a
• 35:02
  potential like failure in design or
• 35:04
  failure in intent or something like that
• 35:06
  with with what they were trying to do
• 35:07
  with that game. Do you know what I mean?
• 35:08
  >> Yeah. Yeah. I do. It's funny. I think
• 35:10
  with that game in particular, it's it's
• 35:12
  such a funny one to try and connect the
• 35:13
  dots because did did Kojima say, "I I
• 35:17
  don't want this to be a game that is
• 35:18
  universally beloved because the thing
• 35:20
  that is so important to him is kind of
• 35:22
  this aura of being a weird misunderstood
• 35:26
  artist, a kind of person that is not,
• 35:28
  you know, once everybody loves you,
• 35:30
  you're commercial, baby. You're
• 35:31
  mainstream." And that kind of I think
• 35:34
  goes against how he wants people to talk
• 35:37
  about him. And I do think that largely
• 35:40
  that works for him because you do find
• 35:42
  in a lot of his work and when people
• 35:44
  review it there is this air of oh it's
• 35:47
  so weird. It's co there's cojima weird
• 35:49
  stuff. Not everybody gets it but I do.
• 35:52
  And not everybody's af not everybody's
• 35:54
  afforded that.
• 35:54
  >> And I find it interesting too with
• 35:56
  dashing too specifically because um
• 35:59
  >> first of all Kojima does like to just
• 36:01
  say stuff. I mean, all of these people
• 36:03
  just say whatever they want, right? But
• 36:04
  he's someone who I find to be uh do you
• 36:07
  remember when there was like rumors that
• 36:08
  Destination 2 was happening before it
• 36:10
  was announced and um he did a podcast
• 36:12
  with Jeff Keley of all people and they
• 36:15
  sort of just talked about it and they
• 36:16
  talked about how like it was the two of
• 36:18
  them being like, "Dude, all these
• 36:19
  freaking journalists online just just
• 36:22
  spinning tales." And Cojima said like,
• 36:24
  "No one's asked me if Desranding 2 is
• 36:27
  being made. If if they asked me, I would
• 36:29
  tell them the truth. I would say no,
• 36:30
  it's not." and then like six months
• 36:31
  later it gets announced. So like
• 36:32
  obviously he's lying. So like he could
• 36:34
  just say whatever he wants is what I'm
• 36:35
  getting at. Um but
• 36:38
  >> don't you Isn't it kind of interesting
• 36:39
  though that if that's the perspective of
• 36:41
  like we are going to make a game that's
• 36:42
  going to be worth talking about and it's
• 36:44
  going to be really different and it's
• 36:45
  going to be controversial. Um, it is
• 36:47
  going to be um a more traditional thirdp
• 36:50
  person shooter than Death Stranding one
• 36:51
  was. And it is uh going to be a more
• 36:54
  traditional story about family and uh
• 36:57
  found family than maybe the first one
• 36:59
  even was, which was largely about that
• 37:01
  as well. 89 Metacritic. Do you know what
• 37:04
  I mean? Like like I kind of look at that
• 37:05
  I'm like, "Oh, wait. If that was your
• 37:06
  goal, I do think that you created a game
• 37:08
  that is uh in a lot of ways kind of
• 37:10
  safer than the original one was." And
• 37:12
  part of that does come from the fact
• 37:14
  that it is a sequel and so it is going
• 37:15
  to be less like it's building off of
• 37:17
  what already exists and so by definition
• 37:20
  it's going to be less surprising and
• 37:21
  whatever. But uh I don't know. Do do you
• 37:22
  sort of understand like what what I'm
• 37:25
  poking at here?
• 37:25
  >> Yeah. I mean listen Death Stranding is
• 37:27
  such a funny situation because there
• 37:29
  there we could have a lot of different I
• 37:32
  think bespoke topics surrounding that
• 37:35
  the way in which that game uh was
• 37:36
  deployed this year. And I think even
• 37:38
  when we talk about ultimately where it
• 37:40
  ends up with reviews, all I can really
• 37:43
  think about is just uh the kind of
• 37:45
  filtering out that happens with a sequel
• 37:47
  where the person who reviews Death
• 37:49
  Stranding 2 is the person who liked
• 37:51
  Death Stranding one.
• 37:52
  >> Yeah. Yeah.
• 37:53
  >> And that, you know, that kind of self-
• 37:54
  selects a little bit how those reviews
• 37:56
  are going to end up as opposed to the
• 37:59
  first Death Stranding game which
• 38:00
  probably had more varied perspectives
• 38:04
  and opinions in in its reviews. Right.
• 38:06
  >> Right. Because it was new. It was new.
• 38:07
  But do you think that that the fact that
• 38:10
  as you say and it it is true that like
• 38:13
  you have this self- selecting reviewers
• 38:16
  the fact that
• 38:18
  >> Cojima again said that he was trying to
• 38:21
  create something that was not
• 38:23
  >> safe and was not going to just be the
• 38:25
  exact same thing that people were
• 38:26
  expecting out of Destiny 2. But the fact
• 38:28
  that
• 38:29
  >> these self- selected reviewers played
• 38:31
  the game and all generally seemed to
• 38:32
  like it um and it was not in fact a very
• 38:35
  controversial game. Do you think that's
• 38:36
  a failure if again if that was the
• 38:39
  actual intention?
• 38:40
  >> Uh it's tough, right? Because it's it's
• 38:42
  I think what we're speaking to here is
• 38:43
  something that this whole conversation
• 38:45
  is about. Whereas I I think the the
• 38:48
  discourse surrounding a game can
• 38:49
  function to make a
• 38:52
  uh an audience member either more
• 38:54
  generous or more antagonistic towards
• 38:57
  the game. And I think that that comment,
• 38:59
  the I'm going to make a game that not
• 39:01
  everybody likes, that sort of general
• 39:03
  comment, actually serves to make the
• 39:06
  kinds of people who would review that
• 39:07
  game more generous to it because you
• 39:10
  want to be the kind of person who
• 39:12
  understands, who is on that level and
• 39:15
  sees the artistry beneath everything
• 39:18
  that Kojima does. Um, and then so then
• 39:21
  this question of like
• 39:24
  is it is not this kind of controversial
• 39:27
  game. It's not getting the sixes, the
• 39:29
  sevens out of tens that you might expect
• 39:31
  from what Kojima was describing. Um, I
• 39:34
  think what that I don't think it's a
• 39:36
  failure. I think what that does to me is
• 39:39
  instead it is evidence as to
• 39:45
  the he's like he was doing like a little
• 39:47
  PR for his cult of personality. I think
• 39:49
  that's all that was.
• 39:49
  >> I I agree. Yeah. And that's why, like I
• 39:51
  said, you know, he's free to say
• 39:53
  whatever. He can say whatever. He's
• 39:54
  gonna say whatever he wants to say.
• 39:56
  >> Yeah.
• 39:56
  >> Um
• 39:57
  >> Yeah, I think you're right. Yeah.
• 39:58
  >> But Yeah. Yeah. Just How does Donkey
• 40:00
  Kong Bonanza, that's a game that that
• 40:03
  came out. That's another one of these
• 40:04
  games that came out. Everyone's like,
• 40:05
  "You have to play it." Oh my gosh.
• 40:07
  Nintendo's back, baby. They're back.
• 40:10
  >> I have it. I have it.
• 40:14
  Donkey Kong Bonanza is a game that you
• 40:17
  will not see discussed too much online.
• 40:20
  You will not.
• 40:21
  >> But we had an episode, our first episode
• 40:25
  of the Kirk podcast.
• 40:27
  >> Yeah, we did.
• 40:28
  >> Yes. Where we talked about the weirdness
• 40:31
  of the Donkey Kong Bonanza reviews. And
• 40:33
  I think it is in that episode and in our
• 40:35
  conclusions in that findings in that
• 40:36
  episode that you can find what the most
• 40:40
  tangible bit of online discourse about
• 40:42
  Bonanza was. And then I think there in
• 40:44
  lies our answer to what we're
• 40:45
  investigating today. Uh that episode was
• 40:48
  largely concerned with people tying that
• 40:50
  game back to to the want to the desire
• 40:53
  of a 3D Mario game on their new Nintendo
• 40:57
  consoles. Yeah. And yes, and I do think
• 41:00
  that that game kind of taking the space
• 41:03
  of a 3D Mario game allowed it to occupy
• 41:07
  a level of greatness, a of prestige, of
• 41:11
  importance that was not entirely
• 41:13
  justified by the content of the game.
• 41:15
  And I think that that is the that is the
• 41:17
  context that shaped the conversation.
• 41:19
  It's like this is Nintendo's big wouldbe
• 41:23
  3D Mario and because of that it must be
• 41:26
  in our game of the year list. It must be
• 41:28
  great. Uh but I don't find a lot of
• 41:32
  meaningful discourse about what is
• 41:35
  actually great about that game and more
• 41:38
  what it means and what it represents for
• 41:40
  Nintendo to have released it now in this
• 41:42
  time. Uh because when the next 3D Mario
• 41:44
  does come out, no, nobody's gonna no go
• 41:47
  by. Everybody's going to go, "Oh, this
• 41:49
  is better than Bonanza."
• 41:51
  >> Yeah. Right. I mean, to me that it's a
• 41:53
  game that I I think feels very like
• 41:56
  >> very much like it's going to be tossed
• 41:57
  to the side the second that you know
• 42:00
  that that whatever new Mario game comes
• 42:01
  out.
• 42:02
  >> Um
• 42:05
  yeah, just cuz it's it's it positioned
• 42:07
  itself sort of as or or maybe was
• 42:09
  positioned by people talking about it as
• 42:11
  like
• 42:12
  >> I mean, yeah, that is exactly what we we
• 42:14
  said in that first episode, right? About
• 42:15
  just the idea of like it's not a new
• 42:16
  Mario. All the reviews start by saying,
• 42:19
  >> "I know you want a new Mario.
• 42:22
  >> Crazy.
• 42:22
  >> This is not that." And it's like, "Okay,
• 42:25
  uh, or this is that or it, you know, it
• 42:27
  kind of is that." However, you know,
• 42:28
  whatever reviews said. Um, but yeah,
• 42:32
  weird. Weird. I think something that I
• 42:34
  am coming to terms with about this year,
• 42:36
  not just across games, but across um
• 42:39
  just like our culture itself, is that I
• 42:42
  think this was the year that people more
• 42:45
  than ever outsourced their thinking. And
• 42:51
  >> I'm thinking about that a lot in context
• 42:54
  with um AI of course. And
• 42:57
  >> if I were to reframe the conversation
• 43:01
  that we're having here and because I
• 43:02
  think that there is a way in which
• 43:04
  somebody listening might think,
• 43:07
  wow, the discourse that Jake and Peter
• 43:10
  are talking about is a failure of the
• 43:14
  audience to properly interrogate the
• 43:18
  medium.
• 43:19
  >> Yeah. But I wonder if we can reframe
• 43:22
  this, if we can think about this in a
• 43:23
  different way, could we say that this
• 43:25
  discourse that we are observing that is
• 43:27
  um largely thin, could we say that this
• 43:31
  is instead a coping mechanism to
• 43:38
  a culture that needs structure to its
• 43:42
  abundance. Um there are
• 43:46
  >> so many there are so many games we live
• 43:49
  in an era where it is more important
• 43:51
  than ever to have a take to have a
• 43:53
  position that what's happening here is
• 43:56
  that uh we are finding the quickest
• 43:58
  possible path to social meaning in a
• 44:02
  time in which personal meaning is harder
• 44:04
  than ever to extract. So it's not that
• 44:08
  we are it's not that gamers are avoiding
• 44:10
  meaning. It's that we are outsourcing it
• 44:12
  to so so then the narratives that do
• 44:16
  emerge do kind of like turn into we all
• 44:18
  land on these like big conversation
• 44:20
  topics rather than
• 44:23
  introducing something new, introducing
• 44:24
  something insightful. We kind of have
• 44:26
  the lowest common denominator discourse
• 44:28
  and that becomes the identity for the
• 44:30
  game.
• 44:30
  >> Yeah. Because it's much easier to say,
• 44:34
  well, you know, I'm not
• 44:37
  homophobic, so I like so so Ghost of
• 44:40
  Yote is good than it is to interrogate
• 44:43
  what's going on with Ghost of Yote as a
• 44:45
  game, right? Because because it's like,
• 44:46
  well, here's my take on the discourse,
• 44:48
  right? Um uh it's much easier to say
• 44:52
  clear obscure was actually made by more
• 44:54
  than a hundred people or I don't know
• 44:56
  how many right than it is to say what is
• 44:58
  clear obscure actually saying about
• 45:00
  grief or lack thereof.
• 45:02
  >> Yeah. The question is not whether or not
• 45:05
  video games are being misunderstood. I
• 45:06
  think the maybe the more salient
• 45:08
  question is whether the misunderstanding
• 45:10
  of video games in the environment we
• 45:11
  exist in now is the point. Are we
• 45:14
  comfortable letting argument replace
• 45:18
  interaction, replace encounter?
• 45:20
  >> Yeah.
• 45:20
  >> And and I don't think, you know,
• 45:22
  obviously it is it is fine to have those
• 45:24
  conversations and and to to point those
• 45:27
  things out and talk about those things.
• 45:28
  Those are important conversations to be
• 45:30
  had uh undoubtedly. Uh that's kind of
• 45:33
  what we do on this show, right? We talk
• 45:35
  about the way we talk about games. Um,
• 45:37
  but it has been interesting in doing
• 45:39
  this show and like uh meaningfully
• 45:41
  trying to engage with gaming
• 45:43
  conversations because it has opened my
• 45:46
  eyes a little bit to the point to to see
• 45:48
  like, oh man, so many of these
• 45:50
  conversations are just so shallow and
• 45:51
  not about the games themselves. And I
• 45:53
  would love I would love if 2026 was full
• 45:57
  of critical error episodes where we got
• 45:59
  to talk about games a little bit more
• 46:00
  and less about, you know what I mean? If
• 46:02
  if the discourses were about like, oh my
• 46:06
  gosh, in Resident Evil 9 it switches
• 46:09
  between first person and third person
• 46:11
  and here's the discourse about that. I I
• 46:14
  would love that. I would welcome that
• 46:15
  gladly because then we get to talk about
• 46:17
  like the actual meat of a game and and
• 46:19
  talk about the way we talk about
• 46:21
  mechanics and stuff like that which I
• 46:22
  find to be significantly more
• 46:24
  fascinating than than looking at like uh
• 46:27
  than being like a is even that's I don't
• 46:30
  know uh my examples here are not good
• 46:33
  but what I'm saying is
• 46:36
  my hope is that we are able to shift
• 46:39
  away from as you say like replacing the
• 46:42
  thought of of engaging with the game
• 46:44
  with just like what is the take about
• 46:46
  the game?
• 46:47
  >> The longer I sit with this, the more I I
• 46:50
  think that this conversation is maybe
• 46:52
  emblematic of an issue among the critic
• 46:56
  class more than I realized when I
• 46:58
  entered the conversation because I think
• 47:00
  that it is fair to say that critics are
• 47:03
  not guiding the interpretation of video
• 47:05
  games anymore as much as they are
• 47:06
  navigating preloaded meaning. And I
• 47:09
  think you see that in so many reviews
• 47:11
  this year. you see like the the the
• 47:14
  framework of the conversation like what
• 47:16
  we're supposed to be discussing has
• 47:18
  already been decided and then it dude
• 47:20
  the Metroid Prime 4 reviews like I you
• 47:22
  see how there is this kind of like I
• 47:25
  have to navigate this conversation
• 47:27
  within this very specific framework. So
• 47:29
  I I obviously it's like the the the
• 47:33
  critic class has a specific space in
• 47:37
  like video game culture or whatever and
• 47:39
  it's maybe not as powerful as I would
• 47:41
  like to imagine it is but I think when
• 47:45
  looking at the art form it is
• 47:47
  >> important to recognize the critic's role
• 47:50
  especially for us and I think the
• 47:51
  conversations that we have here. Yeah.
• 47:54
  >> Yeah. I hope people understand what
• 47:55
  we're getting at. I I hope it's things
• 47:58
  where like
• 48:00
  >> um this is another one where I think
• 48:03
  >> you might be able to take us in bad
• 48:04
  faith if that's what you want to do.
• 48:06
  >> Um
• 48:07
  >> but I I hope that people are are
• 48:11
  trying to meet us where we're at and
• 48:12
  understand what we're what we're getting
• 48:14
  at here. Um I think we've made our our
• 48:16
  points. I I think we've well articulated
• 48:18
  our points for the most part. Um, but I
• 48:20
  just want to say if you're listening,
• 48:22
  thanks for being here and thanks for
• 48:24
  thanks for uh taking us in good faith
• 48:26
  because I think that's what um we are
• 48:28
  trying to to offer here.
• 48:30
  >> Well,
• 48:32
  how do uh who do we who do we thank
• 48:35
  every week on the Critical Error
• 48:36
  podcast?
• 48:37
  >> Why Jake?
• 48:38
  >> Yeah.
• 48:39
  >> Why we thank the members of the Critical
• 48:40
  Error Nation. Uh, and specifically I
• 48:44
  want to thank the members of the
• 48:45
  critical error nation at the Jake and
• 48:48
  Peter tier of our Patreon. That's
• 48:50
  patreon.com/critical
• 48:52
  error. I want to thank Evan Pon. I want
• 48:54
  to thank Renquir. Maybe Renqua. I don't
• 48:56
  speak French. I'm not from Expedition
• 48:59
  33. I want to thank Anel Trait. I want
• 49:01
  to thank Evan Snee. I want to thank May
• 49:04
  row. All of these people are at the Jake
• 49:07
  and Peter tier on our Patreon. they have
• 49:09
  taken a uh a further step to say we want
• 49:13
  to support critical error. We want to
• 49:14
  support the things that these two fellas
• 49:17
  are doing. And I want to say thank you
• 49:19
  so much for uh uh supporting us here.
• 49:21
  You know, we're we're getting to the end
• 49:22
  of the year here. And it's it's been on
• 49:24
  my heart a little bit to think about,
• 49:26
  hey, uh these people are are tangibly
• 49:30
  supporting us and saying that they want
• 49:32
  more of what we're doing and and I
• 49:33
  appreciate that um so much. But they're
• 49:36
  not the only ones doing that, Jake, are
• 49:37
  they? No, they are not. The $10 and up
• 49:42
  supporters of the critical error nation,
• 49:44
  who by the way, everybody that's at the
• 49:46
  $5 tier or up gets our bonus pods every
• 49:50
  single week. And like you were kind of
• 49:51
  starting to say there, I would like to
• 49:52
  urge as we head into the holiday season
• 49:54
  and as we start the new year, if you
• 49:56
  wanted to start your new year off with a
• 50:00
  $5 up subscription to Critical Error, oh
• 50:02
  my god, I would love to see that.
• 50:04
  patreon.com/critical. I would love to
• 50:06
  get that email. Give me a little holiday
• 50:08
  delight. Not Not many viewers out there,
• 50:10
  you might not know, but right now in the
• 50:12
  midst of recording this podcast, we're
• 50:14
  celebrating Hanukkah, baby. Hanukkah.
• 50:16
  So, you've still got some days. This is
• 50:17
  an 8 day affair. You Christmas people,
• 50:19
  you don't even know. That's one day. You
• 50:21
  got to get that sub. Dude,
• 50:23
  >> Christmas is one maybe two days if we're
• 50:25
  counting Christmas Eve. Hanukkah, a week
• 50:28
  and some change.
• 50:29
  >> That's right. A week and some change.
• 50:30
  So, you have an opportunity right now to
• 50:32
  get me a little Hanukkah present. You
• 50:34
  wait till the sun goes down. You go to
• 50:36
  patreon.com/critical
• 50:37
  error and I will know.
• 50:39
  >> Oh my gosh, you did that for me.
• 50:40
  >> Can I ask a question? Can I just ask a a
• 50:42
  cultural question? Is waiting till the
• 50:44
  sun goes down a thing that you do for
• 50:46
  Hanukkah? Is that is that when you light
• 50:48
  the the is that the manora?
• 50:49
  >> That's correct.
• 50:50
  >> Oh my gosh.
• 50:51
  >> Yeah.
• 50:51
  >> Oh my gosh.
• 50:52
  >> It's an exciting time.
• 50:53
  >> Here's the thing. Here's what's
• 50:54
  interesting about the the critical
• 50:55
  eration as a people. Multicultural.
• 50:58
  >> That's right.
• 50:59
  >> Multi multi-religious.
• 51:00
  >> Are you talking about between you and
• 51:01
  me? Well, certainly you between you and
• 51:04
  I as one person who is Jewish and one
• 51:06
  person who's not. That's by definition.
• 51:08
  Um, but I'm talking about as the nation
• 51:10
  as a whole,
• 51:11
  >> we're welcoming you in. Celebrate
• 51:13
  Hanukkah. We're welcoming you in.
• 51:14
  Celebrate Christmas in a in a religious
• 51:16
  way, in a in a secular way, however you
• 51:18
  want to do it. Celebrate the new year,
• 51:20
  >> perhaps. Yeah. I don't know. I don't
• 51:22
  know.
• 51:22
  >> Well, see now, but now we've got
• 51:23
  something going on here where I'm going
• 51:25
  to take any past sundown Patreon
• 51:27
  subscription as a Hanukkah present. But
• 51:29
  if I wake up Christmas morning and I see
• 51:31
  that we've got 12 new subscribers, I'm
• 51:32
  going to be A LITTLE HURT. I'M GOING TO
• 51:34
  BE A LITTLE WOW. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. SO,
• 51:36
  IT'S IMPORTANT TO GET PETER A CHRISTMAS
• 51:37
  PRESENT, I guess.
• 51:38
  >> No, no, no, no, no, no. I think
• 51:40
  percentage- wise, right, of the
• 51:41
  population uh in terms of in terms of
• 51:44
  religious spread, it would make sense a
• 51:46
  little bit, right? That that um just
• 51:49
  just in terms of the sheer number of
• 51:50
  although perhaps we we can appeal to a a
• 51:53
  the Jewish side of the game community,
• 51:55
  you know what I mean?
• 51:57
  >> Welcome, please.
• 51:59
  is fine. Oh my god.
• 52:01
  >> Need to know more about Judaism in order
• 52:04
  to make like slight funny little jokes.
• 52:07
  Not joke, like not like poking fun at
• 52:09
  joke, but just like I was going to say
• 52:11
  some stuff, but I was like, I don't
• 52:12
  know. Is that offensive? I don't I don't
• 52:13
  have the cultural god
• 52:15
  >> understanding yet. Uh we're going to get
• 52:16
  there cuz that's what we're uh we're
• 52:18
  building towards with the critical error
• 52:20
  nation understanding and the love of all
• 52:22
  people.
• 52:22
  >> And if we want to get a third one out
• 52:24
  there, you know, my mom loves to do the
• 52:26
  uh three kings day. Are you familiar
• 52:28
  with this?
• 52:29
  >> Is this a Jewish thing? I don't know.
• 52:30
  >> No, this is a Latin like
• 52:32
  >> Oh my gosh.
• 52:35
  >> An intersectional podcast is is what
• 52:37
  this is.
• 52:37
  >> Yeah. Yeah. So, we we It's like January
• 52:39
  like 5th, I think. You you put you put
• 52:41
  your shoes out and then there would be a
• 52:43
  little present in my shoes. January 6th.
• 52:47
  >> Oh, this is similar to um St. Nicholas
• 52:49
  Day, which is a thing that I celebrate
• 52:51
  as as a Polish person.
• 52:52
  >> Okay. Um
• 52:54
  uh
• 52:55
  >> you know you know about this the three
• 52:56
  wise men they they put a little present
• 52:58
  in your shoes.
• 52:58
  >> Oh I'm familiar with the three wise men
• 53:00
  bringing gold myrr and um
• 53:03
  >> oh my god
• 53:04
  >> frankincense.
• 53:05
  >> Oh my god.
• 53:06
  >> To little baby Jesus.
• 53:08
  >> Wow.
• 53:08
  >> Um though January 6. That's a little
• 53:11
  dicey. It's a little dicey.
• 53:13
  >> Oh my god. All right let's play the
• 53:14
  sound. And by the way, yes,
• 53:16
  >> you were you were talking about Require
• 53:17
  or whatever, and I was like, "Oh my god,
• 53:20
  I'm going to find the the best copyright
• 53:22
  free kind of Frenchy music I can find,
• 53:25
  and I'm going to do the sound this
• 53:26
  week." Doing doing it in f in French,
• 53:29
  the best I can do.
• 53:30
  >> Renquoire, this is for you. Oh, thank
• 53:33
  you very much to Anel Trey, Evan Lee,
• 53:37
  Evan Pauls, Ranca, and Mero. And of
• 53:41
  course our $10 supporters Connor True
• 53:44
  Love Andrew Boa Danny Disaster Cro
• 53:50
  Sam Ceda James Pierre Reed Jgo Richtor
• 53:57
  Jared Coeno Pepe Leu Sam Woods and Co. I
• 54:04
  fear we've gone a little off the rails.
• 54:06
  >> Uh yeah, this is going to be a tonal
• 54:09
  shift, huh?
• 54:09
  >> Oh my god. Okay. So, you each and every
• 54:12
  week we prepare a pre-written piece.
• 54:15
  This, of course, is your turn. I have no
• 54:17
  idea what you have brought for us this
• 54:19
  week, but please, Peter, take it away.
• 54:21
  >> So, before we get into this, I would
• 54:23
  like to I I have been told that
• 54:27
  sometimes my work, not any of the
• 54:29
  writing I've done on critical error, I
• 54:30
  don't think, but sometimes I've been
• 54:31
  told that my work uh can be a little
• 54:33
  triggering for people. Um, and so I
• 54:37
  personally, if I were to hear this, I
• 54:38
  would not be particularly triggered by
• 54:40
  the things that are in this essay, but I
• 54:42
  would uh like to just give a heads up
• 54:44
  for a trigger warning of a discussion of
• 54:46
  depression and suicide. Uh, but in a in
• 54:49
  a it's it's not like I don't know,
• 54:51
  doesn't matter.
• 54:52
  >> In in case you choose to leave us here,
• 54:54
  thank you so much for listening. We'll
• 54:55
  see you next here. Yes. Apologies if
• 54:57
  this is something you are not interested
• 54:58
  in engaging with, but um this is a
• 55:00
  personal essay that I have written here
• 55:02
  for you now.
• 55:06
  I've been having a hard time plugging in
• 55:08
  the Christmas tree. That's such a weird
• 55:10
  thing to come to grips with, but it's
• 55:12
  true. My fiance works early, so I wake
• 55:15
  up alone every day, and I walk into the
• 55:17
  main room of our apartment to see our
• 55:19
  Christmas tree in the corner, lights
• 55:21
  off.
• 55:22
  I look at it, then I leave. For no
• 55:26
  reason at all, I find the thought of
• 55:28
  reaching down and plugging it in
• 55:29
  entirely overwhelming. It's not the
• 55:32
  task, I don't think. It's just that
• 55:34
  sometimes doing things for the sake of
• 55:36
  doing them makes me feel like I am
• 55:38
  dutifully adhering to some nihilistic
• 55:40
  ritual. Why plug the tree in if I'm just
• 55:44
  going to unplug it tonight? Why make the
• 55:46
  bed if I'm crawling back in in just a
• 55:49
  few hours? Why shower? Why leave the
• 55:51
  bed? Why do anything at all?
• 55:55
  Well,
• 55:58
  because it's nice to look at Christmas
• 56:00
  lights, man. Just plug the damn tree in.
• 56:04
  It's not that simple. I don't think you
• 56:06
  get it, I say to myself as I pace around
• 56:08
  my tiny kitchen, circle the drain of the
• 56:10
  overwhelming weight of the passage of
• 56:11
  time, the weight of doing anything at
• 56:13
  all. I'm not going to shower today
• 56:16
  because showering means I get my hair
• 56:18
  wet, which means it's not just a quick
• 56:19
  10 minutes in and then I can start my
• 56:21
  day, but it's instead 45 minutes of
• 56:23
  having wet hair before I can put my
• 56:25
  headphones on and get to work. But I
• 56:27
  woke up late, so that means I'm not
• 56:28
  getting started until like 10:00 and so
• 56:30
  I might as well just take the entire
• 56:32
  morning off and get started after lunch.
• 56:35
  But I'm not leaving the house today. The
• 56:38
  president's not coming over. And even if
• 56:41
  he were, he's not invited in. He's kind
• 56:43
  of a dick.
• 56:45
  No need to shower, I say, lying to
• 56:48
  myself for the third day in a row.
• 56:52
  I heard once that people get surprised
• 56:54
  that sometimes people get so depressed
• 56:55
  that they can't even take a shower.
• 56:58
  It's kind of a regular thing for me, but
• 57:00
  sometimes I pretend like it's not so
• 57:02
  bad, like it's not some kind of sad
• 57:04
  warning sign. Sometimes people get so
• 57:06
  depressed that they kill themselves. My
• 57:09
  showering thing is pretty inoffensive if
• 57:12
  you ask me. Keeps the water bill down
• 57:14
  for starters.
• 57:16
  I forget to turn the heat on when I wake
• 57:18
  up. It's been a cold December. Last
• 57:20
  week, every day was sub 10°, but I turn
• 57:23
  the heat off at night since I can't
• 57:24
  afford to keep it going on all day. But
• 57:26
  then I spend too long trying to figure
• 57:28
  out if I have the cognitive function to
• 57:29
  step into the shower or reach down to
• 57:31
  plug the tree in that I forget that I'm
• 57:33
  supposed to flip the switch and start
• 57:35
  the heat. So, I just stand here in the
• 57:38
  kitchen paralyzed in a room that's 58°.
• 57:42
  As I write this, I didn't shower today,
• 57:45
  but I'm planning on showering tomorrow.
• 57:48
  I'm going to shower tomorrow after I
• 57:49
  plug in the tree and turn on the heat.
• 57:52
  These nihilistic rituals send me
• 57:54
  spiraling. I am often not good at
• 57:56
  handling them or taking care of myself,
• 57:58
  but
• 58:00
  well, I guess there is no but, but
• 58:02
  nothing. That's just true. I have a hard
• 58:05
  time with these sorts of things, but I
• 58:07
  am planning on doing them tomorrow, and
• 58:09
  sometimes that's good enough. I'm
• 58:11
  telling you this now that I'm not going
• 58:13
  to have a handle on any of that stuff by
• 58:16
  tomorrow, but just doing it once has to
• 58:18
  count for something. It's the first step
• 58:21
  in a reverse nihilistic spiral. Or maybe
• 58:26
  it's just nice to look at Christmas
• 58:28
  lights, man.
• 58:32
  Thank you,
• 58:35
  H man, you know,
• 58:37
  >> I know. I don't mean to be a bummer. I'm
• 58:38
  sorry.
• 58:38
  >> I I I look forward every Wednesday to
• 58:42
  sitting down and recording the Critical
• 58:44
  Error podcast. It's
• 58:46
  >> it's often one of the the best things uh
• 58:50
  going on in my week. I look forward to
• 58:51
  it. We talk for so long before we even
• 58:54
  record our bonus podcast
• 58:56
  >> cuz we're just we're just having a nice
• 58:58
  little time.
• 58:59
  >> Yeah. And it is um I think especially
• 59:01
  when things are not so good and there's
• 59:04
  a lot that we can kind of swish around
• 59:06
  in our bodies and make ourselves feel
• 59:08
  worse and worse, there is a medicine,
• 59:10
  there is reprieve in
• 59:13
  uh just this time we get to spend with
• 59:15
  each other and our friendship.
• 59:18
  >> And I think um it's tough because I know
• 59:22
  I know this is out there. I know it's
• 59:23
  out there for you. I know it's out. It's
• 59:25
  certainly out there for me and I know
• 59:29
  it's probably out there for a lot of
• 59:31
  people that are listening. Um
• 59:34
  I more than ever in my life, I have been
• 59:37
  talking to people and they have been
• 59:38
  saying to me, "Man, I am just not in the
• 59:41
  Christmas spirit. I'm not in the holiday
• 59:43
  spirit. I'm not enjoying this winter.
• 59:45
  This has been a harsh winter. This has
• 59:47
  been tough." And
• 59:50
  that like, oh man, I don't know. just
• 59:52
  like knowing
• 59:54
  that people I people I know are feeling
• 59:56
  this, knowing people that I love are
• 59:58
  feeling this, that that life is so hard
• 1:00:00
  for so many uh really weighs on me and
• 1:00:04
  it's hard to listen to. It is it was it
• 1:00:06
  was hard to it was hard to hear all that
• 1:00:07
  because I think I just you know I just
• 1:00:10
  want my friends to be happy.
• 1:00:11
  >> It's difficult, right? And it's it's
• 1:00:13
  this thing where
• 1:00:16
  >> it's bad out there right now.
• 1:00:18
  >> Yeah. Right. It's pretty it's pretty
• 1:00:20
  like you know no no no no two ways about
• 1:00:22
  it. It's it's bad out there right now.
• 1:00:24
  >> And sometimes I think that um
• 1:00:28
  to be totally like honest and
• 1:00:30
  vulnerable. I think since the pandemic I
• 1:00:33
  have had a hard time sort of like
• 1:00:35
  >> um
• 1:00:37
  uh adjusting. Um there's a line from a
• 1:00:40
  song I really like called Low Tide by a
• 1:00:42
  band called The Wonder Years where he
• 1:00:43
  says, "I'm exploding on re-entry." And
• 1:00:45
  I'm like, "Oh my gosh, that's how I feel
• 1:00:48
  about the pandemic, right? About like
• 1:00:50
  coming back uh uh after all of that to
• 1:00:54
  just sort of like I guess that's just
• 1:00:55
  like a low-level worry forever now." And
• 1:00:57
  I have this thing where I'm like, "Why
• 1:00:58
  am I having a hard time concentrating?
• 1:01:00
  Why am I having a hard time putting all
• 1:01:01
  this together? Why am I having a hard
• 1:01:02
  time plugging in the stupid Christmas
• 1:01:04
  tree?" And it's like because
• 1:01:07
  there is so much stuff that's like
• 1:01:08
  weighing down right now all the time in
• 1:01:11
  every aspect of everything. And it's
• 1:01:13
  like you don't even like subconsciously
• 1:01:15
  need to be thinking about it to feel
• 1:01:16
  overwhelmed, right? And so I I hope that
• 1:01:20
  like in writing about this, my my
• 1:01:22
  intention is not to make anyone feel bad
• 1:01:23
  or to be like like uh uh to like remind
• 1:01:27
  people of that, but it's instead to just
• 1:01:29
  be like, "Hey, I'm going through this
• 1:01:31
  with this with literally plugging
• 1:01:33
  something into the wall."
• 1:01:35
  >> You know what I mean? I'm like literally
• 1:01:36
  plugging something into the wall or or
• 1:01:38
  showering, which I know is is a thing
• 1:01:40
  that uh you know, care tasks are things
• 1:01:41
  that sometimes I struggle with, but it
• 1:01:43
  is it is true, right? And and um it's
• 1:01:46
  not it's not I'm not bringing it up to
• 1:01:48
  be like,
• 1:01:50
  >> gosh, we all need to feel terrible, but
• 1:01:51
  it's to it's sort of the end point
• 1:01:53
  because I I wrote 90% of this and I was
• 1:01:55
  just like looking and I was like, what
• 1:01:56
  am I even supposed to say?
• 1:01:58
  You know what I mean? But like, oh, but
• 1:02:00
  but it's all fine. Like, no, it's not.
• 1:02:02
  >> I don't have a handle on this. But I
• 1:02:04
  showered today. I did show like today. I
• 1:02:06
  wrote about that. I wrote this last
• 1:02:07
  night and I was like, "Tomorrow morning
• 1:02:08
  I'm waking up. I'm seeing Jake. I'm
• 1:02:09
  going to plug the Christmas tree in and
• 1:02:10
  I'm going to take a shower." I know that
• 1:02:11
  sounds like so simple, but it's like
• 1:02:13
  it's tough sometimes.
• 1:02:15
  >> There's a precariousness that I think
• 1:02:18
  pervades our current society or at least
• 1:02:21
  the people in my immediate circles that
• 1:02:24
  um I feel like like here's a here's a
• 1:02:27
  special kind of pain for you. I I feel
• 1:02:29
  like at any moment I could get a text or
• 1:02:32
  a call on my phone that destroys my
• 1:02:34
  life.
• 1:02:36
  >> Yeah.
• 1:02:37
  >> Even if it never comes,
• 1:02:38
  >> I try to put that stuff to bed.
• 1:02:40
  >> Yeah.
• 1:02:40
  >> Um I
• 1:02:42
  >> the fact that that's what we
• 1:02:44
  >> I wrote about that that's in my
• 1:02:46
  Signalist video where I'm like I can't
• 1:02:47
  actually like think about this too much.
• 1:02:49
  The idea of like what what if you've
• 1:02:51
  talked to someone the last time and you
• 1:02:52
  don't know? Like I can't even think
• 1:02:53
  about it because it's too it's too big,
• 1:02:55
  it's too painful, it's too real.
• 1:02:56
  >> Yeah. Um,
• 1:02:58
  >> yeah. I did this thing, you know. Hey,
• 1:03:00
  this is what bonus pods sometimes turn
• 1:03:02
  into, by the way, if you're interested.
• 1:03:03
  >> Yeah. Yeah. The bonus pod. $5 up.
• 1:03:05
  Patrons, please.
• 1:03:06
  >> Uh, I do this thing sometimes where I
• 1:03:08
  convince myself that Elena, my fiance,
• 1:03:10
  has died and I don't know. And so I've
• 1:03:12
  like I go through the entire I will
• 1:03:15
  spend an afternoon in grief
• 1:03:17
  >> and then she'll just come home and be
• 1:03:19
  like, "Hey."
• 1:03:20
  >> And I'm And she doesn't know she doesn't
• 1:03:22
  know that I have I I'm mourning her
• 1:03:24
  death now. Do you know what I And it's
• 1:03:26
  it's like you got you can't do it. You
• 1:03:28
  can't do that. You have to put that to
• 1:03:30
  bed.
• 1:03:34
  I'm sorry for ending it like this. I
• 1:03:37
  said I I tried to write about something
• 1:03:38
  else and it was it was I was having a
• 1:03:40
  difficult time sort of articulating how
• 1:03:41
  I felt, but I was like I can write about
• 1:03:42
  this.
• 1:03:43
  >> I think anybody still listening to the
• 1:03:44
  podcast at this point to be completely
• 1:03:46
  transparent is probably already
• 1:03:48
  supporting us on Patreon and is probably
• 1:03:51
  already part of the critical error
• 1:03:52
  nation. So, um, just to address those
• 1:03:54
  people, I think in no uncertain terms, I
• 1:03:57
  I truly mean this. I I'm getting a
• 1:03:58
  little emotional even queuing up the
• 1:04:00
  comment I'm about to make, but um I
• 1:04:02
  think largely it is uh our dream to
• 1:04:08
  be able to do this in a way that is
• 1:04:10
  stable and sustaining and in the
• 1:04:13
  simplest terms uh make this and a kind
• 1:04:16
  of a growing part of the growing this
• 1:04:19
  our jobs
• 1:04:21
  >> and the support that we've already seen
• 1:04:24
  from people that have uh encouraged us
• 1:04:27
  to keep doing in this and have
• 1:04:28
  encouraged us and made us believe in the
• 1:04:30
  thing that we are doing is meaningful
• 1:04:33
  and valuable.
• 1:04:34
  >> Uh cannot cannot be stated and I and I
• 1:04:36
  think a lot of um a lot of my personal
• 1:04:38
  philosophy when I'm feeling down about
• 1:04:39
  anything is to practice a bit of
• 1:04:42
  gratefulness. There are always things to
• 1:04:44
  be grateful for and uh I think just to
• 1:04:47
  get us out of this moment a little bit
• 1:04:49
  not to devalue or diminish what this
• 1:04:52
  moment has been. I do just want to say
• 1:04:54
  uh how grateful I am for the listeners
• 1:04:58
  and supporters who are still with us.
• 1:05:00
  >> Yes. 100%. And whether you're you
• 1:05:01
  whether you're supporting us on Patreon
• 1:05:03
  or not, the fact that you're here means
• 1:05:04
  a lot. And and I think that um
• 1:05:08
  to your point
• 1:05:10
  >> to get us out of this, there is light.
• 1:05:13
  >> Of course.
• 1:05:13
  >> Right. Like there is light cuz Hey,
• 1:05:15
  here's something interesting about
• 1:05:16
  taking a shower. It's really warm and
• 1:05:18
  nice in there.
• 1:05:21
  >> Do you know what I mean? Oh, yes it is.
• 1:05:24
  >> It's really It's nice in there.
• 1:05:26
  >> Yeah.
• 1:05:26
  >> Um and and so thanks for being here. Uh
• 1:05:30
  I hope you're I hope we're all doing
• 1:05:31
  okay. I hope we're all having have I
• 1:05:34
  hope we all have a nice holiday for
• 1:05:35
  whatever you celebrate, whether that is
• 1:05:37
  Hanukkah with Jake, whether that is
• 1:05:39
  Christmas with me, um New Year's Eve,
• 1:05:43
  getting married. I think it's going to
• 1:05:44
  be kind of fun. Jake and I will take a
• 1:05:47
  picture together, I'm sure. Just one one
• 1:05:49
  singular photo.
• 1:05:50
  >> Just one. And then and then and then we
• 1:05:51
  will continue to not talk because you
• 1:05:53
  know this about us we we don't talk
• 1:05:54
  outside of doing our podcast any any
• 1:05:56
  conversation
• 1:05:57
  >> could you imagine
• 1:05:58
  >> some people do that some people are like
• 1:05:59
  I will not talk to you unless it's
• 1:06:00
  content like
• 1:06:01
  >> as if I am not talking to you every hour
• 1:06:04
  of every day.
• 1:06:05
  >> If I don't hear from you for an hour I'm
• 1:06:07
  like something's going on with Jake.
• 1:06:08
  He's either having a busy day or
• 1:06:09
  something like something's up.
• 1:06:11
  >> Yeah. Um yeah. Hey thanks for being
• 1:06:13
  here. We'll catch you in the next one.
• 1:06:15
  Bye
• 1:06:16
  >> bye.