Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Woman murders three separate infants for 'constantly crying,' & Missouri Governor sex scandal a crime?

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Woman murders three separate infants for 'constantly crying,' & Missouri Governor sex scandal a crime? · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:06
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Serious x M Triumph
0:09
Speaker 1: Channel one two. No one wants to hear that news quote.
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Speaker 1: I can't take kids that constantly cry. Okay, well, all
0:23
Speaker 1: children constantly cry. That's just a given. They're gonna cry.
0:27
Speaker 1: Let's see. Why did John David start crying this weekend?
0:30
Speaker 1: Which is very rare? Oh, because I made in practice piano.
0:34
Speaker 1: Lucy started crying when I told her she had to
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Speaker 1: put away her homemade slime that she's obsessed with making
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Speaker 1: and go to sleep. She had a big that of
0:43
Speaker 1: it in a giant tupperware. I mean, anything, can they'll
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Speaker 1: just cry. They can be tired, they cry, They're hungry,
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Speaker 1: they cry, that's just that's just part of it. But
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Speaker 1: three dead infants because you couldn't stand the way that
1:03
Speaker 1: they cry. I Meancy Grace, this is Crime Stories, and
1:09
Speaker 1: believe you me. I want justice. Nancy Maronez now suspected
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Speaker 1: in three murders, including the murder of her own son.
1:27
Speaker 1: How did she get a mits on? Two others joining me?
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Speaker 1: Chicago psychologist Dr Tiffany Sanders, forensics expert and Professor of
1:37
Speaker 1: forensics at Jacksonville State University, Joseph Scott Morgan and investigative
1:42
Speaker 1: journalist Alan Duke Uh Alan Nancy Maronez now suspected in
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Speaker 1: suffocating three babies, but all three deaths were attributed to SIDS,
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Speaker 1: Sudden infant death syndrome. Hold On, hold on, Alan, just
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Speaker 1: got Morgan. You're the forensics expert. Maybe you can explain
2:08
Speaker 1: it a little better than I. What is SIDS. We
2:11
Speaker 1: don't really Still to this day, Nancy, we still don't
2:15
Speaker 1: know what SIDS is. What it stands for is sudden
2:18
Speaker 1: infant infant death syndrome. For many years, people referred to
2:22
Speaker 1: it as crib death, and it's this mysterious thing that
2:26
Speaker 1: kind of hangs out there in the air, and new
2:29
Speaker 1: parents in particular, I remember me being terrified of h
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Speaker 1: you know, walking in and finding my baby deceased, and
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Speaker 1: then at autopsy. Many times there's just no viable explanation.
2:43
Speaker 1: And that's what's troubling about this because lots of times,
2:47
Speaker 1: lots of times, it's the default position when you're trying
2:50
Speaker 1: to make a diagnosis postmode. Well, I was the same
2:53
Speaker 1: way with the twins. I finally got him something called
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Speaker 1: angel something. It was a very thin mattress, almost like
3:03
Speaker 1: the the thickness of a heating pad that you put
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Speaker 1: under their sheet and if they if they're breathing stopped.
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Speaker 1: It was supposed to alarm. Of course, it never did
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Speaker 1: alarm because, as you said, Joe Scott, that no, to
3:24
Speaker 1: this day, the real cause of sudden infant death syndrome
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Speaker 1: SIDS has not been identified, which makes me highly suspicious
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Speaker 1: when I keep hearing about children dying of SIDS, and
3:37
Speaker 1: it does happen. But when one woman is connected to
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Speaker 1: three different children, unrelated in time and space of SIDS,
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Speaker 1: they all die of SIDS. She's the commonality, She's the
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Speaker 1: common factor. And I can't believe it's taken all these
3:54
Speaker 1: years to put two and two together to read to
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Speaker 1: get four sudden infant death syndrome. And this is even
4:03
Speaker 1: I remember when the twins were born, and that was
4:05
Speaker 1: ten years ago. There's a huge effort, an initiative call
4:09
Speaker 1: back to sleep, Back to sleep. Always put your child
4:14
Speaker 1: to sleep on their back, because part of the theory
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Speaker 1: is that if you put your child to sleep on
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Speaker 1: their tummy, their face will get smushed down in blankets
4:26
Speaker 1: or sheets which you're not supposed to have in the
4:28
Speaker 1: bed anyway, and they'll suffocate because they don't have the
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Speaker 1: power to move their heads or to turn over on
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Speaker 1: their back back to sleep. And to this day, that
4:39
Speaker 1: was ten years ago, no serious strides have been taken
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Speaker 1: in reducing sudden infant death syndrome. So I guess everybody
4:48
Speaker 1: just took it at face value that Nancy Morona has
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Speaker 1: just happened to be connected to three dead babies. So,
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Speaker 1: Alan Duke, uh, what brought about any type of break
5:00
Speaker 1: in the case. We'll start with the first death. What happened.
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Speaker 1: Little Justin Brunka was just eighteen days old when he
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Speaker 1: died suddenly. This was in nineteen eighty and as you said,
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Speaker 1: the corner concluded it was SIDSA Justin This is Nancy's son,
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Speaker 1: eighteen days old. Okay, how is he found? Do we know? Yes,
5:26
Speaker 1: he was found at her home. She called the police
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Speaker 1: and said her baby was not breathing, and so they
5:34
Speaker 1: responded and concluded it was SIDS. It was at the home.
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Speaker 1: Chilling details and documents that we have obtained from prosecutors
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Speaker 1: where she states and I quote, I quote can't take
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Speaker 1: kids that constantly cry God forbid one of them have colic? Okay,
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Speaker 1: just God forbid? Um. Interesting, that's the first dead infant,
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Speaker 1: just four years after her own son's death. It's now
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Speaker 1: believed Moronez was babysitting a six month old baby boy.
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Speaker 1: Now at the time. She tells investigators she noticed the
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Speaker 1: baby was unresponsive in less than an hour after she
6:27
Speaker 1: puts him to sleep face down on a water bed. Okay,
6:31
Speaker 1: she tells police she got concerned when she saw the
6:34
Speaker 1: baby's face turned purple the way her sons did when
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Speaker 1: he died. Now right there, Alan, Police, Uh, Antenna should
6:44
Speaker 1: have shot up when she says, this is just the
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Speaker 1: way my baby's son died. Hello, she's on the scene
6:51
Speaker 1: when two babies died. How did the baby's parents find
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Speaker 1: Nancy Morinez? Nancy Moronez responded to a Milwaukee newspaper ad
7:02
Speaker 1: where the couple was looking for a babysitter, and she
7:05
Speaker 1: signed up for the job, and they hired her and
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Speaker 1: started baby sitting for this child. It was just one
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Speaker 1: year after the six month old little boy is dead.
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Speaker 1: The next child victim, just one year later, she was
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Speaker 1: babysitting an eleven week old little girl. What happened? Alan?
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Speaker 1: Do you? She called? Firefighters? Called? Firefighters responded to her home.
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Speaker 1: She pointed to a plastic seat on the floor, just
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Speaker 1: saying there it is, and that's where two months old
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Speaker 1: katie cousin Nikki was on the seat, cold blue, not breathing.
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Speaker 1: And this is what's really crazy. Maronas recognized one of
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Speaker 1: the firefighters who responded, realizing he had come to her
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Speaker 1: home the previous March when Brad died, and she yesked
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Speaker 1: the firefighter, do you yeah, that's so odd, Alan do
8:03
Speaker 1: because reportedly the firefighter says, yeah, I remember, and that
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Speaker 1: Maronas then said, according to the court documents we've just obtained,
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Speaker 1: I told my husband I didn't want a babysit anymore.
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Speaker 1: That's the third dead baby. The first time her own
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Speaker 1: son justin Bronco, just eighteen days old dead. Four years later,
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Speaker 1: an infant six month old baby boy dead. She tells
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Speaker 1: the cops, I became suspicious because he died just like
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Speaker 1: my son did. That should have warned them right then,
8:41
Speaker 1: but no, it didn't. Then the third one, and she
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Speaker 1: actually starts a conversation with the firefighter to remind him
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Speaker 1: that he responded to one of the other dead baby calls.
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Speaker 1: And still nothing is done to Dr tiff Me Sanders,
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Speaker 1: Chicago psychologist. Dr Tiffany do you believe the fact that
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Speaker 1: cops and firefighters e. M t s didn't piece anything
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Speaker 1: together because we have a natural tendency to invoke maternalism
9:18
Speaker 1: on moms. We we just assume mother's love children. Yeah, Nancy,
9:25
Speaker 1: I'm listening to the story and I'm reading the information,
9:28
Speaker 1: and it seems so shocking that no one is putting
9:33
Speaker 1: the pieces together. I work continued with Department Children and
9:36
Speaker 1: Family with Services, and when you see a circumstance happened once, okay, sure,
9:41
Speaker 1: but a second time and it's very eerily similar to
9:46
Speaker 1: the way her her child path, it will bring up
9:49
Speaker 1: all sort of red flacks and have all sort of
9:52
Speaker 1: case workers or investigators determining what is the relationship between
9:57
Speaker 1: these two deaths. And I do believe to your point
10:00
Speaker 1: that they may have afforded her some sort of uh
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Speaker 1: privilege that, oh, she's a mother, she wouldn't harm another
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Speaker 1: person's child, versus looking at this woman with some form
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Speaker 1: of psychopathology and saying, why is she killing babies? It's
10:14
Speaker 1: a shame that that they did not investigate this further.
10:17
Speaker 1: With that second child, I'm looking at a family photo
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Speaker 1: of her. She's smiling and happy, apparently with he must
10:25
Speaker 1: be her husband. Completely normal looking woman. She's kind of attractive,
10:34
Speaker 1: I guess, and big smiles, seemingly normal, but the bodies
10:41
Speaker 1: are stacking up. In one statement, she apparently says that
10:48
Speaker 1: she used a blanket with one of her tiny victims,
10:54
Speaker 1: that the baby quote kind of moved around in her
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Speaker 1: hands as she suffocated. Did the baby dead? Does? She
11:03
Speaker 1: goes on to say she did not use a blanket
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Speaker 1: with her own sun because quote, she wanted him to
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Speaker 1: go sooner. What? What? What? Dr Tiffany? What about impulse control?
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Speaker 1: You know you want the child to quit crying, but
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Speaker 1: to kill it? Absolutely? I mean you're you're you're thinking
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Speaker 1: about impulse control, you're thinking about you know, does she
11:27
Speaker 1: lack empathy? Remorse? Uh? Does she have care or concerned?
11:32
Speaker 1: I mean, these are all signs and symptoms of possible psychopathology.
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Speaker 1: Possible this woman is deranged, and and no one's looking
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Speaker 1: and investigating her mental illness. You just don't do those things,
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Speaker 1: especially with the newborn so and and and I'm not
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Speaker 1: trying to blame the mom of these the second child,
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Speaker 1: but what background check does she conduct? I mean, did
11:56
Speaker 1: you not investigate her own care of children? That's usually
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Speaker 1: one of the first things you want to do before
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Speaker 1: you placed your own child and someone else's care. Hello,
12:03
Speaker 1: her own child died. I'm gonna put some ownership on
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Speaker 1: that parents. They didn't do their own good enough job
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Speaker 1: or due diligence research in this woman's background. Alan, do
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Speaker 1: you what brought it to the forefront? I mean, how,
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Speaker 1: after all this time was it uncovered that these children
12:20
Speaker 1: did not die of SIDS. Well, it was the daughter,
12:23
Speaker 1: the younger sister of the first child to die. Uh
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Speaker 1: Nancy's daughter was curious about why her older brother had died,
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Speaker 1: and she wasn't accepting SIDS. So she had talks with
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Speaker 1: her mom, and what her mom told her was chilling,
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Speaker 1: and so she couldn't keep it in. She went to
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Speaker 1: the police and told them what her mother had revealed
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Speaker 1: to her. And what did the mother say? What was chilling?
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Speaker 1: She said, I killed her brother. I suffocated him. I
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Speaker 1: understood that. She first said she suffocated him with a
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Speaker 1: black garbage bag, but then later she's tells prosecutors he
13:02
Speaker 1: actually died. After she held less than one month. All
13:07
Speaker 1: taught the baby the infant under the water in the bathtub.
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Speaker 1: Now Joe's got Morgan. If that's true, they should have
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Speaker 1: found water in the baby's lung, shouldn't they not? Necessarily, Nancy, weren't.
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Speaker 1: One of the ways that they explained this is that
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Speaker 1: there's a spasm that takes place in the airway that
13:32
Speaker 1: literally shuts down the airway to include it from taking
13:37
Speaker 1: in the water. But also what it includes is the
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Speaker 1: ability to breathe. It's um. It's a curious thing, isn't it,
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Speaker 1: Because this it doesn't take a lot. It doesn't take
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Speaker 1: a lot. I gotta be real careful in saying this.
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Speaker 1: It doesn't take a lot to kill a baby. This
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Speaker 1: is this. These little angels are the most fragile among us,
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Speaker 1: so it doesn't take a lot of effort to facilitate
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Speaker 1: their death. UM. And in this particular case, when they
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Speaker 1: did the examination on the child, the pathologist UM didn't
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Speaker 1: find any evidence of drowning in in this particular case
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Speaker 1: what we would normally associate. And this is another thing,
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Speaker 1: if I can just go a little bit further, one
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Speaker 1: of the things that we look for in sins first off,
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Speaker 1: is do they fit within the age parameters. And that's
14:31
Speaker 1: what's so disturbing about this. They're saying this child is
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Speaker 1: eighteen months old. Now, granted this is back in night,
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Speaker 1: but I'm sorry, eighteen days old. And that is a
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Speaker 1: major problem in the sense that we don't even start
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Speaker 1: considering sins until we're out past the one month old marker. Okay,
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Speaker 1: So if you're talking about eighteen days, Nancy, we're talking
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Speaker 1: about some kind of metabolic condition that exists within that child,
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Speaker 1: that maybe was in dwelling that child since birth. We
15:03
Speaker 1: don't start to look at sids until about one month
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Speaker 1: out at that point, so it didn't fit the parameters
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Speaker 1: that have been There's another fact in her statement, Jo Scott.
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Speaker 1: She says she quote saw bubbles coming out of his
15:16
Speaker 1: nose and mouth, But why are we even considering the
15:19
Speaker 1: statements of a three time killer. She also says, quote
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Speaker 1: when her daughter was born, she made a promise to
15:25
Speaker 1: God that she would not do anything to hurt her
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Speaker 1: daughter if she was crying, but later tells cops, I
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Speaker 1: made a promise, but I broke it. Yeah, you darn right,
15:39
Speaker 1: you broke it. Here's the kicker. You can kill as
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Speaker 1: many infants as you want to in Wisconsin and they
15:47
Speaker 1: don't have the death penalty. And I've already seen her,
15:51
Speaker 1: I've already heard of her. I saw her walk in
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Speaker 1: the court, but I already here tell that she's using
15:58
Speaker 1: a wheel chair. Alan do yes, she was sitting in
16:02
Speaker 1: a wheelchair in court, slumped down, not looking up during
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Speaker 1: her preliminary hearing. And know where that's going. Dr Tiffany Sanders, Well, Nancy,
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Speaker 1: she's trying to give this an image that, Oh, I'm
16:15
Speaker 1: I'm feeble, I'm I'm frail, I couldn't possibly have done
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Speaker 1: something such as a horrible as killing three children. No,
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Speaker 1: you have someone else that you have the wrong person.
16:26
Speaker 1: So she's trying to play on the psyche of of
16:29
Speaker 1: the jury and the judge, and it's just not working.
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Speaker 1: When she when she allegedly committed these actually was not
16:36
Speaker 1: in the wheelchair. Uh, and she was probably moving about
16:39
Speaker 1: with as much energy as you and I are the
16:41
Speaker 1: next person. So it's a lame attempt that will not
16:44
Speaker 1: work in Milwaukee. In Wisconsin, capital punishment was abolished in
16:49
Speaker 1: eighteen fifty three. They were one of the earliest U
16:54
Speaker 1: S dates to abolish. To the DP, it's the only
16:57
Speaker 1: state in the Union that has performed only one ex
17:00
Speaker 1: keastion in its entire history. So I guess she's just
17:02
Speaker 1: been free to kill as many infants as she wants
17:07
Speaker 1: with no real repercussion. At first she was walking into court.
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Speaker 1: Now she's taken to a wheelchair. Okay, three dead infants
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Speaker 1: that we know of. Listen to this, Nancy. This is
17:23
Speaker 1: Amy Brunca, the daughter, speaking to Fox News six in Milwaukee.
17:27
Speaker 1: I was just shocked, just completely shocked. I feel bad
17:33
Speaker 1: to feel shocked. I feel horrified, sick. No one wants
17:38
Speaker 1: to hear that news from their own mother. And she's
17:40
Speaker 1: kind of like she didn't care. She had no emotion
17:45
Speaker 1: when she told me what she did. I went ballistic.
17:48
Speaker 1: My heart goes out to these families. I hope that
17:51
Speaker 1: maybe that these people have a little closure now, at
17:54
Speaker 1: least she knowall some of the truth. I hope she
17:58
Speaker 1: gets Brfe in prison and that understand that a cheating
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Speaker 1: Missouri governor slams a quote reckless liberal prosecutor after the
18:11
Speaker 1: governor is indicted for taking naked photos of his quote
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Speaker 1: hairdresser in a blackmail plot. What does it never end?
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Speaker 1: I guarantee you his parents weren't their fingers to the
18:27
Speaker 1: bone to send him to good schools, to help him
18:30
Speaker 1: get through college so he could pursue his political ambition
18:33
Speaker 1: to what sleep with the hair addresser and end up
18:38
Speaker 1: in the middle of the scandal. And to top it
18:41
Speaker 1: all off, how much of this do the taxpayers pay for?
18:46
Speaker 1: First we've got the Nashville mayor meeting for sex with
18:49
Speaker 1: her bodyguard at a cemetery, no less at seven in
18:54
Speaker 1: the morning, and now this with the Missouri governor. You
18:58
Speaker 1: know what, I want to throw the whole kit and
19:01
Speaker 1: caboodle out. But you know what, wherever they whoever they
19:05
Speaker 1: sleep with as their business. But did the taxpayers have
19:09
Speaker 1: to pay for it? I Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories.
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Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us, so you may ask
19:16
Speaker 1: what's the crime? Hold on a moment with me, Pamela
19:20
Speaker 1: for Crime Stories. Investigative reporter, Pam I have missing children
19:25
Speaker 1: to find. I have unsolved homicides to solve. Why is
19:30
Speaker 1: this considered a crime? Is the oldest story in the book.
19:33
Speaker 1: A manchets, So what's the crime? The crime is allegedly
19:39
Speaker 1: that he photographed a woman without her consent, someone he
19:44
Speaker 1: was sleeping with. You mentioned a moment ago his hairdresser,
19:47
Speaker 1: So the indictment states that he photographed her while she
19:52
Speaker 1: was handcuffed, while she was blindfolded, and in the basement
19:57
Speaker 1: of his home, and while he was taking the picture,
19:59
Speaker 1: he said to her, if you say anything about this affair,
20:03
Speaker 1: I will release these pictures. And so they are charging
20:07
Speaker 1: him with invasion of privacy because she did not consis okay, Wait,
20:12
Speaker 1: you had me on photo and handcuff and naked in
20:15
Speaker 1: the same sentence, that's a crime. That is a crime
20:20
Speaker 1: if she did not consent to it. Now, Uh, Troice Layton,
20:28
Speaker 1: renowned defense attorney, And yes, that was a little bit
20:32
Speaker 1: like eating a dirt sandwich, but I said it. Troice Layton,
20:35
Speaker 1: renowned defense attorney out of l A Hey, buddy, Troy,
20:38
Speaker 1: you know what, when you are in a guy's basement
20:42
Speaker 1: completely buck naked and your handcuffed and blindfolded, it's gonna
20:48
Speaker 1: be a little difficult to argue I didn't consent to
20:51
Speaker 1: have my photo taken. Help me out. It's going to
20:54
Speaker 1: be very difficult. And the only way that any of
20:57
Speaker 1: this got out, Nancy, is because us her husband surreptitiously
21:03
Speaker 1: and without her knowledge, recorded her telling her husband about
21:09
Speaker 1: the whole thing. Wait a minute, Karen Stark, Karen Stark
21:14
Speaker 1: psychologists out of New York, Excuse me, Troy, what's with it.
21:17
Speaker 1: Every man in her life is recording her without her knowledge.
21:20
Speaker 1: According to her, the boyfriend who happens to be the
21:23
Speaker 1: Missouri governor has her tied up, handcuffed, naked with the
21:29
Speaker 1: blindfold over her eyes and takes her picture. Well, that's
21:32
Speaker 1: not flattering. And then you've got her husband allegedly recording
21:37
Speaker 1: her conversations. This woman can't win. Well, there's no there's
21:44
Speaker 1: no crime involved in the fact that she didn't know
21:50
Speaker 1: about it, however, but what you wonder about is how
21:56
Speaker 1: is she even getting into all of these situations and
22:00
Speaker 1: see what's going on that first she's with this guy
22:04
Speaker 1: and allowing herself to be blindfolded, and then she's going
22:08
Speaker 1: to her husband and telling him the story. Well, hold on,
22:11
Speaker 1: speaking of that, Karen's dark. He brought up a very
22:13
Speaker 1: good point. My partner in crime, Alan, do you has
22:18
Speaker 1: managed to locate some of the surreptitiously recorded tapes for
22:23
Speaker 1: the husband is taping his wife as she admits to
22:28
Speaker 1: the relationship with the Missouri governor. Listen to this, Roland Allen,
22:33
Speaker 1: So he Saturday morning before my first client, I did
22:38
Speaker 1: go to his house. What person ever, like I said,
22:46
Speaker 1: nothing of the period had ever happened or taken place
22:49
Speaker 1: until the snowball tornado just happened. I know I brought
22:55
Speaker 1: it on, you know, Troice Lyton. I always find it interesting,
23:00
Speaker 1: and I can't say that I've never done something similar.
23:02
Speaker 1: I guess we all have. You're not mad, you're you
23:06
Speaker 1: did it. You're mad you got caught, okay, And that
23:10
Speaker 1: seems to be her response here. She's like, I know
23:15
Speaker 1: I brought this on, but now a tornado has quote
23:19
Speaker 1: just happened. Oh tornado, Troice Layton, And you can tell
23:22
Speaker 1: this to some of your criminal defense criminal clients. Didn't
23:26
Speaker 1: just happen. The tornado started when you're you're married and
23:32
Speaker 1: you're flirting with a married guy. And again, I'm not
23:35
Speaker 1: the church lady. I don't care who sleeps with Who's
23:38
Speaker 1: none of my business as long as it's not me
23:39
Speaker 1: or my husband. But you start off with a married man,
23:44
Speaker 1: you're married too, and then you quote find yourself in
23:48
Speaker 1: his basement buck naked with handcuffs and blindfold on. That
23:52
Speaker 1: didn't quote just happen. It didn't just happen. Every one
23:57
Speaker 1: of those was a conscious decision, you know, whether it's
24:02
Speaker 1: um cheating or booze or drugs, or gambling or anger.
24:09
Speaker 1: It could be a myriad of things that destroy a relationship.
24:14
Speaker 1: When you give into that, that is your decision. That's
24:19
Speaker 1: a conscious decision to mess up the marriage. Troy. I
24:24
Speaker 1: mean this, but this is we're talking about a crime now,
24:28
Speaker 1: and this was a conscious decision. It did not just happen. Troy.
24:33
Speaker 1: Reminds me of drunk driving. You make the decision to
24:36
Speaker 1: get in the car, crank up the car, reverse out
24:40
Speaker 1: of the bar, and get on the open road and
24:42
Speaker 1: kill somebody with your vehicle. It's not an accident. It's
24:46
Speaker 1: a conscious decision. Troy. You mean, Nancy, that this is
24:50
Speaker 1: a case about choices and responsibility. The thing that every
24:53
Speaker 1: single prosecutor says in every single case that I've tried.
24:57
Speaker 1: M Nancy and cow of Fornia. This would have been
25:02
Speaker 1: a crime for this hair dresser's husband to have recorded
25:05
Speaker 1: her because out here it's a two party consent. States. Well,
25:08
Speaker 1: it probably used to crime on Mars too or the
25:10
Speaker 1: planet Saturn. But guess what, that's not where it happened.
25:13
Speaker 1: It happened in Missouri, and that's the one party consent state. Troy. That, Nancy,
25:18
Speaker 1: we have an over zealous prosecutor from the old other
25:22
Speaker 1: party who decided to wait two years and eleven months,
25:27
Speaker 1: about a month before the statue of limitation would have
25:31
Speaker 1: run out on this to bring a case against the
25:33
Speaker 1: governor of the opposite party in order to try to
25:37
Speaker 1: bring him down. Well, I have to agree with you
25:40
Speaker 1: with the political problems, the political involvement on either side.
25:45
Speaker 1: I think it would be better to have handed it
25:46
Speaker 1: over to the state attorney and keep local politics out
25:52
Speaker 1: of it. But the governor, I understand, Pamela for Crime
25:58
Speaker 1: Stories investigative reporter, has now been indicted by a grand
26:02
Speaker 1: jury and taken into custody. It's happening, people, Pam, it
26:08
Speaker 1: is happening. And um, you mentioned the state attorney. It's
26:11
Speaker 1: my understanding that the state's attorney said they did not
26:14
Speaker 1: have jurisdiction in this so therefore wouldn't be investigating. So
26:18
Speaker 1: that's why it was How can they not have jurisdiction
26:22
Speaker 1: it's within the state of Missouri. What does that mean?
26:24
Speaker 1: Good question, but that is what their statement was publicly
26:28
Speaker 1: on this particular case. I will also say that this
26:33
Speaker 1: all happened before he became governor, but it was right
26:36
Speaker 1: before he just started. He decided to run for governors,
26:40
Speaker 1: so he knew he had this in his very very
26:42
Speaker 1: immediate past. So to take this kind of risk is
26:46
Speaker 1: pretty interesting. And also it should be noted he was
26:50
Speaker 1: a Democrat right before he decided to run for governor
26:55
Speaker 1: as a Republican. So there may be some you know,
26:58
Speaker 1: retaliation from a political standpoint simply because he switched parties.
27:03
Speaker 1: That's what the scuttle but really is in the Missouri
27:06
Speaker 1: political circles. At this point, he admitted to having this
27:10
Speaker 1: affair in but he didn't admit to it until January
27:15
Speaker 1: of this year, and that's when the investigation started. Well,
27:18
Speaker 1: another thing, Joseph's got more going with me. Forensics expert
27:21
Speaker 1: and professor at Jacksonville State University Jo Scott, Here's the
27:25
Speaker 1: problem I have with it. I don't care again, who's
27:29
Speaker 1: sleeping with a Okay that that's a moral decision, and
27:33
Speaker 1: I'm certainly don't have a leg to stand on regarding morals,
27:38
Speaker 1: but the law once it's a felony, then I'm in.
27:43
Speaker 1: In this case, you've got two consenting adults. She has
27:48
Speaker 1: consented to a sex relationship with the married governor. She's
27:54
Speaker 1: um in the room, obviously living out some kind of
27:59
Speaker 1: a fetish between the two of them and says that
28:03
Speaker 1: photo has taken off her without her consent. Now, to me,
28:09
Speaker 1: that does a disservice to all women that have truly
28:14
Speaker 1: been victims of sex assault. And we see it unfolding
28:20
Speaker 1: before our eyes. I've seen it in all the rapes,
28:24
Speaker 1: send the molestations that I prosecuted when nobody believed the
28:29
Speaker 1: victim but me. But you know what, it's not our call,
28:35
Speaker 1: Joe Scott, because a grand jury heard the evidence. A
28:40
Speaker 1: grand jury, they decided that it was without her consent
28:47
Speaker 1: and there was enough evidence to send the case onto
28:49
Speaker 1: a petit jury or a jury of twelve. So Joe Scott,
28:53
Speaker 1: I mean there you haven't, yeah, Nancy, As you know,
28:57
Speaker 1: the in in grand grand jury proceedings, these proceedings are
29:04
Speaker 1: essentially sealed. It's not something where you can go in
29:07
Speaker 1: and you know you've got an audience that's in there.
29:09
Speaker 1: They're gonna hear everything that's going on. This is the
29:12
Speaker 1: prosecutor presenting evidence to this group of empaneled people decide
29:18
Speaker 1: if they're going to move forward with charges. And obviously
29:21
Speaker 1: in this particular case, they've heard evidence that has been
29:25
Speaker 1: presented to them by the prosecutor that would compel them
29:29
Speaker 1: to move forward with charges in in this environment. And
29:33
Speaker 1: another layer to this we begin to think about this is, uh,
29:37
Speaker 1: you've heard this term blackmail floated around in the news media,
29:42
Speaker 1: and this is very troubling. And I really wonder if
29:45
Speaker 1: that has an influence on the decision that uh, not
29:50
Speaker 1: just the prosecutor, but this impaneled grand jury. Uh, if
29:54
Speaker 1: it influenced them to the point where they said, yeah,
29:57
Speaker 1: we're gonna come back with a true bill on this
29:59
Speaker 1: and and we were going to recommend indictment on this
30:02
Speaker 1: particular charge, and we're not really going to know anything
30:06
Speaker 1: until all of this comes out in court are as
30:09
Speaker 1: played out in court before our very eyes. Well you
30:12
Speaker 1: know what, actually, Troy, you know, I've been saying, how
30:15
Speaker 1: could she go that far and living out this fetish
30:21
Speaker 1: between herself married and the governor married? But actually, let's
30:28
Speaker 1: think about this for a moment. Who would consent to
30:31
Speaker 1: a photo of it that could be used against her?
30:35
Speaker 1: That that's when you when you think about it in
30:38
Speaker 1: that light of argument, who would nobody would nobody would
30:43
Speaker 1: want that photo taken that could bring down a marriage.
30:47
Speaker 1: So she she may very well have an argument that
30:51
Speaker 1: this grand jury brought into Can we just say for
30:54
Speaker 1: a moment that the governor is not being charged with blackmail,
30:59
Speaker 1: So this is a uncount indictment for invasion of privacy.
31:02
Speaker 1: There is no allegation of blackmail, and Nancy, as far
31:06
Speaker 1: as the grand jury is concerned, you and I both
31:08
Speaker 1: know that any prosecutor worth his salt or her salt
31:13
Speaker 1: can indict a ham sandwich. And the same class with
31:17
Speaker 1: Irving Younger that I did. I mean, the ham sandwich
31:20
Speaker 1: thing is way overdone, okay, Troy, I expected more from
31:24
Speaker 1: you the idea, Nancy. You know that any prosecutor that
31:28
Speaker 1: wants to get the indictment gets the indictment. The grand
31:31
Speaker 1: jury is the sheep, and they indict just about everything
31:37
Speaker 1: that the prosecutor wants because there's no defense attorney in there.
31:40
Speaker 1: The only person that they hear from in a grand
31:42
Speaker 1: jury is the prosecutor. There's no one arguing on behalf
31:47
Speaker 1: of the governor in those proceedings. And even if this
31:51
Speaker 1: prosecutor thought that there was a basis for a blackmail,
31:55
Speaker 1: she would have indicted it. Well, the defendant has a
31:58
Speaker 1: right to show up at injury proceedings. Although I would
32:02
Speaker 1: advise against it to any defendant because it will all
32:05
Speaker 1: be used could be used against them. Got a question
32:07
Speaker 1: for you, Hold on, Troy, pam for crime storys investigative reporter,
32:13
Speaker 1: Pamela for joining us on the Missouri governor story unfolding.
32:17
Speaker 1: Pamela for they do have the photo, don't they? I mean,
32:21
Speaker 1: the photo exists. This isn't just a he say, she say.
32:24
Speaker 1: Isn't they say they have the photo? But they released
32:29
Speaker 1: thirteen pieces of evidence. Uh, the prosecutor's office. Uh, actually
32:35
Speaker 1: released the thirteen pieces of evidence that was presented to
32:39
Speaker 1: the grand jury, and the part of that evidence was
32:42
Speaker 1: a photo of this woman that they're listing as k
32:46
Speaker 1: f This allegedly the hairdresser. Also in that evidence list
32:52
Speaker 1: were emails between this woman and the governor. So that
32:57
Speaker 1: could be why they believe they have such a strong
33:00
Speaker 1: case also of the possibility of the invasion of privacy,
33:04
Speaker 1: and they're still investigating on the blackmail part. That's why
33:07
Speaker 1: that allegation is still so strong out there in these
33:10
Speaker 1: circles in Missouri. Hang on, Nancy, Let's let's make this clear.
33:15
Speaker 1: The prosecutor just revealed in a court hearing that they
33:19
Speaker 1: don't actually have the picture that is involved in the indictment,
33:24
Speaker 1: and in fact, in a court hearing, prosecutor Robert Steele said,
33:28
Speaker 1: I did not tell them that the picture doesn't exist.
33:31
Speaker 1: I told them we don't have it in our possession
33:33
Speaker 1: at this time. We plan to get that picture. Seems
33:37
Speaker 1: to me that there's something in those emails that would
33:41
Speaker 1: suggest the photo was against her consent. Guys. Audio uncovered
33:49
Speaker 1: audio secretly recorded by the husband of his wife describing
33:54
Speaker 1: her sex encounter with the Missouri governor. Listen said, I'll
34:02
Speaker 1: make you feel better because I'll make you so good.
34:06
Speaker 1: Come downstairs. I want to show you how to get
34:08
Speaker 1: a proper pull up. And I knew that he would
34:12
Speaker 1: being sexual, and I still let him. I mean, use
34:21
Speaker 1: some sort of tape I don't know what it was,
34:24
Speaker 1: and take my hands to these wings and then to
34:29
Speaker 1: boring pulled on me. I don't I don't know, I feel,
34:33
Speaker 1: I don't even know. I love and he's stuffed back
34:40
Speaker 1: and I'm so flashed its blindfold. He said, you're never
34:45
Speaker 1: going to mention my name, otherwise he's pictures something that wouldent.
34:55
Speaker 1: So he said, just please just come to my house.
34:59
Speaker 1: You you were just hearing a secretly recorded conversation by
35:03
Speaker 1: the hairdresser that is basically brought down an administration in
35:09
Speaker 1: the Missouri State Governor's office that was recorded by her husband.
35:16
Speaker 1: But there's more. Take a listen to this. That Eric
35:23
Speaker 1: a year ago, and I instantly had a big crush
35:26
Speaker 1: on it. She goes on to explain her interactions with
35:29
Speaker 1: Grighten's are sometimes it's initiated by herself, and that they
35:34
Speaker 1: met because she cut his hair. She said she felt
35:37
Speaker 1: drawn to talk to the governor, but when he told
35:40
Speaker 1: her I want you to come over to his home,
35:43
Speaker 1: she first said no and wanted to meet for coffee.
35:51
Speaker 1: You know it's interesting right there, Karen Stark that he says, no,
35:56
Speaker 1: I can't meet you for coffee because we would be seen.
35:59
Speaker 1: This is wrong, But Karen start New York psychologists joining me.
36:05
Speaker 1: Even knowing it was wrong, he continued to do it.
36:10
Speaker 1: I mean, we've all done things that are wrong, all
36:15
Speaker 1: of us, including me. Things I wish I had never done,
36:21
Speaker 1: things I wish I could take back. I guess my
36:25
Speaker 1: question is, when you have so much to lose and
36:28
Speaker 1: you're in public life, you know you're gonna get busted, Karen,
36:34
Speaker 1: and yet you see Nancy that had happened so all
36:36
Speaker 1: the time. It's mind blowing when you considered the fact
36:42
Speaker 1: that so many people who are in the public eye,
36:46
Speaker 1: who are responsible to citizens, knowing that they're running for
36:51
Speaker 1: office or that they're in office, go ahead and allow
36:57
Speaker 1: things like that to happen, can't app themselves. So they
37:02
Speaker 1: are psychologically compelled. I'm not saying there's any kind of
37:05
Speaker 1: mental disorder, but they are compelled to do it despite
37:09
Speaker 1: the fact that it's a risk that can bring them down.
37:13
Speaker 1: And we see it happen all the time, that all
37:17
Speaker 1: of a sudden, they're not paying attention to the fact
37:20
Speaker 1: that they have a responsibility and that this could actually
37:25
Speaker 1: ruin their careers and ruin their reputation with the people
37:30
Speaker 1: that they're representing, they're drawn to keep doing it. Back
37:34
Speaker 1: to Pamela for our Crime Stories, investigative reporter, what more
37:39
Speaker 1: do we know? And you said that blackmail is actually
37:45
Speaker 1: on the table, that they're investigating blackmail. What's the genesis
37:49
Speaker 1: of a blackmail charge? The only thing that uh is
37:53
Speaker 1: being reported on the blackmail charges again, the email exchanges
37:58
Speaker 1: between the two that the City Attorney's office has, and
38:03
Speaker 1: they released that as part of the list of evidence,
38:06
Speaker 1: thirteen pieces of evidence that they have, including a picture
38:10
Speaker 1: of this hair dresser, but it's not the picture that
38:13
Speaker 1: everybody is talking about. You had asked earlier if they
38:18
Speaker 1: even have that picture. The truth is, we don't know.
38:22
Speaker 1: They act as if they do, but we actually don't
38:25
Speaker 1: know if they have that picture. As far as blackmail,
38:28
Speaker 1: what's leading to that is possibly the conversations between the
38:31
Speaker 1: two that maybe in those emails, and that they keep saying.
38:36
Speaker 1: The investigation is ongoing and there could be more indictments
38:40
Speaker 1: handed down. The hairdresser says, the governor taped her hands
38:44
Speaker 1: to rings, rings that you hold on to um and
38:50
Speaker 1: then put a blindfold on her, took a photo of
38:52
Speaker 1: her partially nude, and remained and warned her to remain silent. Quote.
38:58
Speaker 1: I saw a flash through the blindfold and he said,
39:01
Speaker 1: you're never going to mention my name. Now. That's according
39:05
Speaker 1: to her. Take a listen to what her husband says,
39:09
Speaker 1: who took a picture of my wife naked? As blackmail?
39:14
Speaker 1: There is no worse person. I think it's as bad
39:18
Speaker 1: as it gets. I think it's as bad as it
39:20
Speaker 1: gets when somebody takes advantage of somebody, you know, what's curious,
39:24
Speaker 1: Troy Slayton, l a defense lawyer. The statute of limitations
39:28
Speaker 1: for invasion of privacy Missouri is three years. That means
39:34
Speaker 1: that statute was due to expire in less than a month.
39:38
Speaker 1: That's some pretty uncanny timing, Troy. I think it is,
39:42
Speaker 1: and it's smacks of politics that the prosecutor would wait
39:49
Speaker 1: until the very last minute, actually the eleventh hour, before
39:54
Speaker 1: she could file this indictment. And the governor has filed
39:58
Speaker 1: a motion to dismiss the indictment on the basis that
40:01
Speaker 1: any interaction between the two of them was consensual. So
40:06
Speaker 1: if if the only evidence that they have of blackmail
40:11
Speaker 1: or that this was not consensual is her statement, well
40:16
Speaker 1: that just doesn't have the ring of truth to it,
40:19
Speaker 1: because here we have a woman who's engaging in a
40:22
Speaker 1: bondage UH scenario, agreeing to be dominated. This could have
40:28
Speaker 1: very well been a part of their entire fantasy interaction together.
40:32
Speaker 1: This is what sticks out of my mind. The governor,
40:37
Speaker 1: as a father of two little boys. Now he came
40:40
Speaker 1: into office as a political outsider, which I like a
40:45
Speaker 1: Rhodes Scarlar. That's not easy. A Navy seal, an officer
40:53
Speaker 1: who was wounded an a rock? Wow, I mean just
40:59
Speaker 1: got Morgan. What better resume? What better background could you have?
41:07
Speaker 1: A father, a husband, a political outsider, a Rhodes scholar,
41:12
Speaker 1: and a Navy seal who was actually wounded in the
41:16
Speaker 1: line of duty? Any rock? Yeah, you're right, Nancy, he
41:20
Speaker 1: it what a better resume? What a better better resume? Also, Uh,
41:26
Speaker 1: to to look at it through this light, you should
41:29
Speaker 1: have known better. And I think that that's that's what's
41:34
Speaker 1: disturbing about this whole thing. You know, the world that
41:37
Speaker 1: we live in now. Um, you know this, this guy
41:42
Speaker 1: is set up. He's everything that you want to be.
41:44
Speaker 1: You know, to become a Rhodes scholar in and of
41:47
Speaker 1: itself is a monumental task. Uh, to go abroad and
41:51
Speaker 1: study in locations like Oxford, UH, and to make it
41:56
Speaker 1: through Navy seal training, to lead men in battle. And
42:00
Speaker 1: he's also been involved in charitable efforts relative to veterans
42:05
Speaker 1: coming home from the war. And I applaud him for
42:07
Speaker 1: all of that. But you know, in one one instance,
42:11
Speaker 1: in just one blink of an eye, all of that
42:14
Speaker 1: can be destroyed by decisions that you make and things
42:20
Speaker 1: that he should have known better than to have been
42:22
Speaker 1: involved in. But again we fall back to our fallback
42:27
Speaker 1: position is always wealth their consenting adults, So it's none
42:31
Speaker 1: of our business. Well, unfortunately it is our business now
42:34
Speaker 1: because he's a public servant. It's in the light of day,
42:37
Speaker 1: and everybody's exposed to all of this tawdry, tawdry business. Well,
42:41
Speaker 1: I agree that it's chaudry unless it's blackmail, unless a
42:45
Speaker 1: photo was taken of her unclosed without her consent. And
42:49
Speaker 1: I don't care what she agreed to. If this was
42:51
Speaker 1: against her consent, it is against her consent. And if
42:54
Speaker 1: the prosecutor does believe the photo was against her consent,
42:58
Speaker 1: it must be process acuted. I know it's a hard sale,
43:02
Speaker 1: but if they really believe the photo was against her consent,
43:06
Speaker 1: there's no choice. But they must present it to a jury.
43:10
Speaker 1: In a recording obtain initially by news for, a woman
43:15
Speaker 1: says she had a sex encounter with Missouri Governor Eric
43:19
Speaker 1: Grighton's and that he tried to blackmail her to keep
43:23
Speaker 1: the encounter secret. Interesting choice light in l a defense attorney,
43:29
Speaker 1: he has been indicted for allegedly taking the photo, but
43:33
Speaker 1: not for blackmail, that's right, And so all this talk
43:38
Speaker 1: about you know what an amazing person he is. Uh,
43:43
Speaker 1: we can't forget that. And if it sounds to me
43:47
Speaker 1: like this woman would have the motivation to lie to
43:51
Speaker 1: her husband, who is figuring all this out, and to
43:55
Speaker 1: say to him, you know, honey, you know he was
43:58
Speaker 1: blackmailing me. And and and that's sounds to me like
44:04
Speaker 1: that was her excuse to her husband, and that she
44:08
Speaker 1: was trying to look for sympathy from her husband at
44:12
Speaker 1: that point. Well, we know a little bit about the
44:15
Speaker 1: emails that may suggest blackmail. Uh. In an October email,
44:21
Speaker 1: the hair addresser allegedly sends an email to a Gmail
44:25
Speaker 1: account she told her husband she had used to get
44:28
Speaker 1: in touch with Governor Grayten's and it states allegedly, Eric,
44:34
Speaker 1: I'm asking you to please consider all who were involved
44:37
Speaker 1: in the circumstances around us. I need you to not
44:41
Speaker 1: book at the salon anymore. This isn't fair to me
44:44
Speaker 1: nor anyone else close to us. Please respect me and
44:47
Speaker 1: my wishes. Now, I I don't know that that proves blackmail,
44:52
Speaker 1: that she's asking him not to book appointments at the salon.
44:56
Speaker 1: That that doesn't really impress me one way or the other.
44:59
Speaker 1: Troy Slaton, No, that sounds like she's having remorse and
45:04
Speaker 1: wants to maybe do the right thing now and doesn't
45:07
Speaker 1: want to be forced to be in a situation with
45:12
Speaker 1: him that has nothing to do with whether or not
45:14
Speaker 1: he surreptitiously took the photo like her husband surreptitiously recorded her.
45:20
Speaker 1: Now the wife has spoken out. Graydon's wife, Shena has stated,
45:25
Speaker 1: we have a loving marriage and an awesome family. Anything
45:28
Speaker 1: beyond that is between us and God. I want the
45:32
Speaker 1: media and those who wish to peddle gossip to stay
45:34
Speaker 1: away from me and my children. Man, she's in a
45:38
Speaker 1: bad spot here and start yeah, and there's not too
45:41
Speaker 1: much that she can do about it. It sounds it
45:45
Speaker 1: sounds great, great that she's saying it's, you know, between them,
45:52
Speaker 1: and I do agree that it is between them, except
45:55
Speaker 1: that he is somebody who's in the public eye, and
46:00
Speaker 1: it's very hard to say that the media shouldn't be
46:03
Speaker 1: involved when he took that kind of a risk. Well,
46:06
Speaker 1: you know, I've also got a question the motives of
46:07
Speaker 1: a husband that records his wife's conversations. Joe Scott Morrigan,
46:11
Speaker 1: I mean, what's his motive other than revenge, hatred, greed,
46:15
Speaker 1: get back? I mean, what do you think, Yeah, I know,
46:17
Speaker 1: we've uh I remember famously the uh there was a
46:22
Speaker 1: case and it it uh the name escapes me right
46:25
Speaker 1: now done in Florida where you had a fellow that
46:28
Speaker 1: was taping the sexual encounters of his wife, uh to
46:34
Speaker 1: that was actually used as as blackmail towards the individuals
46:38
Speaker 1: that they would target. So you know that brings up
46:41
Speaker 1: that raises a completely different specter uh in this whole
46:45
Speaker 1: thing as well. You know, what is his motivation or
46:48
Speaker 1: is it financial gain? Uh? Is it just him? Is
46:51
Speaker 1: it some kind of uh paraphilia he has uh you know,
46:56
Speaker 1: sexually directed to these these events that his wife has engaged.
47:00
Speaker 1: I don't know, it leaves it leaves a big, huge
47:02
Speaker 1: open swath for you know, kind of filling the blank
47:05
Speaker 1: year as we go forward. Is this indictment the real
47:08
Speaker 1: thing or is it just more political trickery Nancy. The
47:13
Speaker 1: first step in a possible impeachment of the governor was
47:16
Speaker 1: taken Tuesday, as a Missouri State House committee met for
47:19
Speaker 1: the first time it's in its investigation of the scandal.
47:22
Speaker 1: The bipartisan committee has forty days to call witnesses with
47:27
Speaker 1: subpoenas and to prepare a report that depending on what
47:31
Speaker 1: they find, could lead to impeachment proceedings against Governor Grden's
47:36
Speaker 1: Michigan Republican Party officials say that they've created a new
47:40
Speaker 1: nonprofit in order to raise money to help the embattled
47:45
Speaker 1: Missouri governor with his legal expenses. Also, supporters of Gridens
47:51
Speaker 1: have started a legal defense fund privately, and on the
47:55
Speaker 1: flip side of that, there's a veterans charity founded by
48:00
Speaker 1: a Gratans that says they'll now support an attorney general's
48:05
Speaker 1: inquiry into whether the misuse of our resources by the
48:10
Speaker 1: Gratans campaign took place. Nancy Grace crime Stories, Goodbye Friend,