Latest / The You Project / #2251 The Experiment Mindset - Tamsin Simounds

Transcript

#2251 The Experiment Mindset - Tamsin Simounds · The You Project

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: G'day, team.
• 0:01
  Speaker 2: It's Harps.
• 0:01
  Speaker 1: It's the You Project. What else would it be? And
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: who else would be saying these words? Of course I do.
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: As we record, it's Friday. It's just gone midday. It's 12.36.
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: It's been a very busy morning. It's been a lot
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: of cognitive load. I've been sitting on my ass. I
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: need to get up and stretch and do all the
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: things I tell you to do. But that's all right.
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: I will do this after this scintillating conversations with Tams
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: and Sims and Hot Simmons. Come on, Craig, put your
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: teeth in. Hi, Tamsin.
• 0:31
  Speaker 3: Hello, Craig. Nice to see you. It sounds like we
• 0:34
  Speaker 3: should have been doing a walking podcast today.
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, that would be a nightmare for recording, but
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: it'd be fun. Sorry about the wind, everybody. Yeah, walking
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: meetings are a thing now, aren't they, where people get
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: together and they go and have walking coaching is a
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: thing too. I do a little bit of that where
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: I'll meet someone and we'll just go for a walk.
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: But it's not the worst idea, right?
• 1:00
  Speaker 3: Soundproof booth light helmets could be a thing.
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: Soundproof. Oh, okay. We wouldn't look weird at all. Oh, look,
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: there's two aliens in here. A girl one and a
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: boy one. Hopefully they could tell the difference. Tell my
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: audience about you, whatever you want to tell them.
• 1:24
  Speaker 3: So I.
• 1:26
  Speaker 4: I have a windy career path, as I think many
• 1:29
  Speaker 4: of us do. I started my career in medical imaging.
• 1:33
  Speaker 4: Didn't know what I wanted to be when I grew up.
• 1:35
  Speaker 4: I started a double degree in journalism and international studies
• 1:38
  Speaker 4: and decided that wasn't for me.
• 1:41
  Speaker 3: And my dad went to.
• 1:42
  Speaker 4: Get a chest X-ray and said, you know what, that
• 1:45
  Speaker 4: lady was really nice. I think I can imagine you
• 1:48
  Speaker 4: doing something like that one day.
• 1:50
  Speaker 3: So I found myself with a medical imaging degree.
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: Why not? Great Genesis story. I'm like, really? I'm glad
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: you didn't meet like an oil engineer or something. You
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: could have ended up in the oil fields of WA.
• 2:06
  Speaker 3: Look, it's an interesting way to live life. We'll see
• 2:09
  Speaker 3: where we end up. But I very quickly ended.
• 2:11
  Speaker 4: Up in leadership and I'd had aspirations for leadership throughout
• 2:16
  Speaker 4: my whole life, but I don't know that I really
• 2:19
  Speaker 4: knew back then what it meant because once I found
• 2:22
  Speaker 4: myself running my first collection of medical imaging clinics.
• 2:28
  Speaker 3: It wasn't what I thought it was going to be.
• 2:30
  Speaker 3: And I found it really hard. And I was in
• 2:34
  Speaker 3: my early to mid 20s.
• 2:35
  Speaker 4: I was leading people who had been in the industry
• 2:38
  Speaker 4: for longer than I'd been alive. And I was just
• 2:41
  Speaker 4: waiting for that tap on the shoulder to be told
• 2:43
  Speaker 4: that I had no idea what I was doing with
• 2:46
  Speaker 4: a raging case of imposter syndrome. And my health and
• 2:50
  Speaker 4: my relationships were suffering as I tried to just prove
• 2:53
  Speaker 4: myself in that really demanding role. And it got to
• 2:56
  Speaker 4: the point after a few years where I either needed
• 2:59
  Speaker 4: to get out and I actually was going to leave.
• 3:05
  Speaker 3: But decided to stay. I got talked into staying and
• 3:08
  Speaker 3: thought I'm going to need to.
• 3:10
  Speaker 4: Learn how to thrive in this environment where I'm barely
• 3:12
  Speaker 4: just surviving. So I'd before that done all of the
• 3:17
  Speaker 4: leadership and management training that I could. I did a
• 3:20
  Speaker 4: diploma of management and leadership twice for good measure. But
• 3:23
  Speaker 4: you know, Craig, you go out to these trainings, you
• 3:26
  Speaker 4: get your certificates in hand and you get back into
• 3:28
  Speaker 4: the workplace and.
• 3:31
  Speaker 3: Nothing really changes.
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: A hundred percent. I mean, I was, I just had
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: a chat. In fact, I was coaching a lady just
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: before you. This lady is quite amazing. She is, I
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: won't say her name, but she is a, a politician,
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: she's a paramedic and she's a psychologist and not a
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: low level politician either. Like she's right up there. And
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: we were talking about how much learning, how much experiential
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: learning is, I guess it depends on the career, of course,
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: but it's so much more valuable often than what you
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: might learn sitting at a desk. Nothing wrong with academic learning,
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: nothing wrong with theoretical kind of downloads, but yeah, you
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: kind of, you learn in the field, you know, like
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: I just finished my doctorate in psych and virtually everything
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: I talk to people about is based on the first
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: 40 years of my working life as an exercise scientist
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: and a trainer and a business owner and an entrepreneur
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: and as an employer and Like I learned so much
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: more about human behaviour in the middle of all of
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: that than doing a six-year degree on meta perception, which
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: I loved, which was great. It's valuable. But, yeah, I
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: think real world, hands-on, fall down, get up, learn, unlearn,
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: you know, figure shit out in real time is the
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: ideal classroom.
• 5:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, learning through experimentation, there's a book on that, Craig.
• 5:09
  Speaker 4: Oh, really?
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: You should write a book called Learning.
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: The experiment mindset, unlocking the science of person. You should
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: think about writing that. Well, of course, that is the
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: name of your book. Congrats.
• 5:22
  Speaker 3: That is the name of my book.
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: That is the name of your book. We'll plug it repeatedly.
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: How did you go with the writing process?
• 5:32
  Speaker 4: So interestingly, when I went from the leadership.
• 5:39
  Speaker 3: Training, needing to figure it out, I... Found my way
• 5:43
  Speaker 3: over time.
• 5:43
  Speaker 4: To leadership coaching once I figured it out for myself
• 5:46
  Speaker 4: and didn't want other people to learn.
• 5:47
  Speaker 3: The hard way.
• 5:48
  Speaker 4: And I've been coaching for the last 10 years, working
• 5:51
  Speaker 4: in coaching and organizational development. And I had discovered through
• 5:56
  Speaker 4: that that people know they know a lot of information.
• 6:01
  Speaker 4: The people that I'm working with are so intelligent, probably
• 6:04
  Speaker 4: similar to this lady.
• 6:05
  Speaker 3: They're plugged into the podcast. They're reading the books. They've
• 6:07
  Speaker 3: done the courses.
• 6:09
  Speaker 4: Some of the people I'm coaching in leadership have been
• 6:11
  Speaker 4: over to Harvard and done leadership training. There's no shortage
• 6:14
  Speaker 4: of information out there, but the execution is a bit
• 6:19
  Speaker 4: of a problem for people.
• 6:20
  Speaker 3: You know, you might know the thing, but are you
• 6:22
  Speaker 3: doing the thing?
• 6:24
  Speaker 4: So there was that that I noticed, and then there
• 6:26
  Speaker 4: was the fact that people are often getting to these
• 6:29
  Speaker 4: places where they look really successful on the outside, but
• 6:33
  Speaker 4: really internally when they come and sit down with me,
• 6:35
  Speaker 4: they're like.
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: Is this it?
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 6:38
  Speaker 4: And looking around thinking I've worked really hard to get
• 6:41
  Speaker 4: here and I'm not sure if here is where I
• 6:43
  Speaker 4: really want to be.
• 6:44
  Speaker 3: And these are the things that made me.
• 6:48
  Speaker 4: Start to have a look at how do I help
• 6:50
  Speaker 4: these people in the environment that they're in? There's a
• 6:52
  Speaker 4: lot of change. There's a lot of information out there.
• 6:55
  Speaker 4: And the path that they found themselves on isn't necessarily
• 6:58
  Speaker 4: the one that they're actually wanting to be on. And
• 7:01
  Speaker 4: the way that I had started coaching people in the
• 7:03
  Speaker 4: frameworks that I developed and then started to study through
• 7:08
  Speaker 4: my master's in neuroscience and business that I'd started, I...
• 7:15
  Speaker 4: I realized it was an experimental mindset. I needed to
• 7:17
  Speaker 4: get people moving. How can I remove the barriers to
• 7:20
  Speaker 4: actually taking action on the information that you know, so
• 7:23
  Speaker 4: that people can start moving down the path toward what
• 7:27
  Speaker 4: they want, which can often.
• 7:28
  Speaker 3: Feel really scary.
• 7:29
  Speaker 4: So I developed this framework really just for my clients
• 7:32
  Speaker 4: and the people that I was working with. And I
• 7:33
  Speaker 4: was speaking on stages about that. And I was on
• 7:39
  Speaker 4: some speakers bureau websites and the Wiley commissioning editor was
• 7:44
  Speaker 4: Jordan Lott was scouting around on these websites, having a
• 7:49
  Speaker 4: look at what are people talking about and what's interesting.
• 7:52
  Speaker 4: And an email landed in my inbox saying, hey, Tamsin,
• 7:55
  Speaker 4: have you ever thought about writing a book? I've just
• 7:58
  Speaker 4: seen this topic, The Experiment Mindset that you talk about,
• 8:00
  Speaker 4: and I think that could be a really interesting book.
• 8:03
  Speaker 4: And I actually forwarded that email on to a friend
• 8:06
  Speaker 4: of mine and said, is.
• 8:07
  Speaker 3: This a scam?
• 8:08
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, understandably, yeah.
• 8:11
  Speaker 3: So out of the blue, she said, look, that's a
• 8:13
  Speaker 3: Wiley email address. You need to respond to her. And
• 8:16
  Speaker 3: I said, yeah, absolutely. And so in terms of the
• 8:19
  Speaker 3: process of.
• 8:19
  Speaker 4: Writing the book, I went from not thinking I was
• 8:23
  Speaker 4: about to write a book, like that being a maybe
• 8:25
  Speaker 4: 10-year down the track project, to finding out in April
• 8:31
  Speaker 4: last year that I was writing a book, getting it
• 8:33
  Speaker 4: started in June and having it done by November, December
• 8:37
  Speaker 4: last year.
• 8:38
  Speaker 3: Published in May this year.
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: It's interesting because the irony for both of us is
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: we know it's about largely about, you know, real life,
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: real time, problem solving, on the go, theory of mind,
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: understanding how others think, metacognition, understanding how you think, social awareness,
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: situational awareness, reading the room, reading the person, all this stuff.
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: And then you write a book about it, which is
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: another thing 200 pages of theory, you know, it's like,
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: and even these conversations, this is, it's ironic for me
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: because I always talk about, you know, how much like
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: knowing is important, but we need to be out there
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: doing as well, you know? So it's the, like the
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: irony of this show is we talk about motivation, inspiration, outcome, success, drivers, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: all the stuff. but it's just another hour of theory
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: that people are listening to. So how do you, who are,
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: and as you need to be, as we do the
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: same thing, right? So I'm not throwing you under the bus.
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: I'm asking because maybe you can teach me, right? Because
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: you're just, you're another theorist. I mean, even though you
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: practically do it, but you're sharing ideas, stories, and theory, right?
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: how do we get people to operationalize it yeah.
• 10:04
  Speaker 4: Look it's a it's a great question and I've worked
• 10:06
  Speaker 4: really hard to make the experiment mindset a doing book I.
• 10:12
  Speaker 3: Keep saying it's not a psychology.
• 10:14
  Speaker 4: Book this is a doing book and I have written
• 10:18
  Speaker 4: it in a way That is designed to embed a mindset.
• 10:22
  Speaker 4: So it's not a you must follow this framework in
• 10:25
  Speaker 4: this particular exact way because I know how many frameworks
• 10:30
  Speaker 4: I've read that I could not perfectly execute on. And
• 10:35
  Speaker 4: the way that building of a mindset happens is through
• 10:40
  Speaker 4: testing it in the real world.
• 10:44
  Speaker 3: And if we're trying to do it perfectly and if
• 10:47
  Speaker 3: we're trying to get it all right... we're really unlikely
• 10:50
  Speaker 3: to even start.
• 10:52
  Speaker 4: And if we do start, we're unlikely to keep it
• 10:54
  Speaker 4: going because it takes a lot of energy for us
• 10:56
  Speaker 4: to be doing something focused and new like that all
• 11:01
  Speaker 4: of the time.
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: A hundred percent. So tell me a little, sorry, you finish.
• 11:08
  Speaker 4: So what I'm encouraging people to do through the experiment
• 11:11
  Speaker 4: mindset is to start with reflection is to find if
• 11:14
  Speaker 4: you're wanting to head in a particular direction rather than
• 11:17
  Speaker 4: thinking about the end goal and the strategy to think,
• 11:21
  Speaker 4: what's my minimum viable experiment?
• 11:23
  Speaker 3: What's one small step.
• 11:25
  Speaker 4: That I can take so that I can gather some
• 11:28
  Speaker 4: learning and some data that's going to inform my best
• 11:31
  Speaker 4: next step?
• 11:32
  Speaker 3: And this is the mindset that I'm looking to embed
• 11:34
  Speaker 3: for people.
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: Oh, I love that. I love that. And also, maybe
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: you'll gain some more insight in that. Maybe you'll gain
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: a little bit of confidence in And a bit of curiosity. Yeah,
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: I love it. So I feel like a lot of,
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: you spoke about imposter syndrome, feeling like a fraud, all
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: that stuff. There are times when I get on stage
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: and I don't know how many I've done, but thousands
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: of corporate presentations and public workshops, even this podcast, we're
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: heading towards two and a half thousand over nearly 10 years, right?
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: So I spend my life talking at people. I still
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: get on a stage at times and feel like a
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: fraud and a fake, despite the fact that I have
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: the data that says, Craig, you're not. So I have
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: the intellectual understanding, well, Craig, You've actually spoken to ANZ
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: 20 times and you're now back at ANZ for number 21. Nonetheless,
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: that emotional state of fear or self-doubt or like it's
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: interesting that the feeling not good enough can coexist with
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: the knowing I am good enough. Have you experienced that ever?
• 12:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely.
• 12:49
  Speaker 4: I used to think it was a problem to be
• 12:51
  Speaker 4: solved and a lot of the clients that come to
• 12:53
  Speaker 4: me think it's a problem to be solved and now
• 12:55
  Speaker 4: I've come to see it.
• 12:56
  Speaker 3: As an inevitable part of growth.
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 13:00
  Speaker 4: If you're playing a big enough game and if you're
• 13:02
  Speaker 4: bumping up against the edges of your potential, then you're
• 13:05
  Speaker 4: going to feel some discomfort. There's fear, there's self-doubt, there's
• 13:12
  Speaker 4: anxiety around wondering if something's going to go wrong because
• 13:15
  Speaker 4: there's a lot of unknown associated with new audiences and
• 13:19
  Speaker 4: new things and wanting to do.
• 13:21
  Speaker 3: A good job. It's about how you frame that in
• 13:25
  Speaker 3: your mind.
• 13:26
  Speaker 4: Because I work with a lot of people who are
• 13:28
  Speaker 4: trying to achieve big things and I can tell you
• 13:31
  Speaker 4: that if they're doing it right, they're not feeling very
• 13:34
  Speaker 4: comfortable a lot of the time. So it's finding a
• 13:37
  Speaker 4: way to not want to run away from that but
• 13:39
  Speaker 4: to actually lean into it and use it as a
• 13:41
  Speaker 4: catalyst to help you.
• 13:42
  Speaker 3: To progress and grow.
• 13:46
  Speaker 4: And I still get nervous before I speak and, gosh,
• 13:51
  Speaker 4: writing the book, it was hilarious because I was writing
• 13:55
  Speaker 4: this book around taking action and there's this whole section
• 13:58
  Speaker 4: around perfectionism and procrastination and I'm having to apply these
• 14:03
  Speaker 4: frameworks to myself. I'm like, there is no way other
• 14:06
  Speaker 4: than doing this because this is literally what you're writing
• 14:11
  Speaker 4: about is that you're not going to feel like the
• 14:14
  Speaker 4: type of person who is an author or writes a
• 14:17
  Speaker 4: book because you've never done it before, right?
• 14:20
  Speaker 3: And so, therefore, I stopped talking.
• 14:23
  Speaker 4: About I'm going to write a book and started to
• 14:26
  Speaker 4: talk about I'm writing my first book so that it
• 14:29
  Speaker 4: was more like an experiment. I'm going to do the
• 14:32
  Speaker 4: best I can, see how it comes up and get
• 14:35
  Speaker 4: the feedback back. And thankfully, I'm really happy with the
• 14:38
  Speaker 4: way that it came out. But that's how I approach things.
• 14:41
  Speaker 3: Everything now. I've got a couple of speaking gigs next
• 14:43
  Speaker 3: week and it's.
• 14:45
  Speaker 4: Go out and do the best that I can, get
• 14:47
  Speaker 4: the feedback back in and then iterate and go out
• 14:50
  Speaker 4: for the next one.
• 14:50
  Speaker 3: But I can't tell you it's comfortable. It's not easy,
• 14:54
  Speaker 3: but it's not meant to be.
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so true. Well, firstly, congratulations on the book. Having
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: a publisher chase you, you are the unicorn. That is,
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: I mean, I have had that. but only after I
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: self published, you know, I got sought out by Penguin
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: to write a book as well. And it is, uh,
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: people don't understand the emotional, psychological, physical rollercoaster of writing
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: a book, like your deepest thoughts and understanding, pushing it
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: out of the literary nest into the world and going,
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: please don't hate me. Uh, please don't hate me. Please
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: like my book, buy my book. Um, What are the, like, okay,
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: let me start here. So as an exercise scientist, right?
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: If you said to me, Craig, who's going to make
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: a great AFL player? Or what's the, if you had
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: to kind of build a prototype that's brought, I would say, oh,
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: let's talk about men firstly, just because an AFL player, right?
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: Or could be women's, but the numbers would be different.
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: But Well, actually, let's make it the same because the
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: attributes are the same. But they'd need to be tall-ish
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: for a guy, maybe 6'2, 6'3. For a lady, maybe 5'10, 5'11, depending,
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: maybe 6 foot. They'd have to have speed, power, spatial awareness.
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: They'd have to be highly skilled, intelligent. They need to
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: be able to perform under pressure. They need to be
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: able to make decisions under pressure. There's this whole checklist, right?
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: What are the skills, qualities, attributes of somebody who might
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: become a great leader?
• 16:50
  Speaker 4: I think a sign of success in leadership, and this
• 16:54
  Speaker 4: might be a little bit outside the square, it's.
• 16:57
  Speaker 3: Someone who's congruent. So what they.
• 17:03
  Speaker 3: For themselves and others, what they know and.
• 17:07
  Speaker 4: What they think and what they.
• 17:10
  Speaker 3: Do is in alignment. And I think that's a really
• 17:14
  Speaker 3: good place to start from.
• 17:16
  Speaker 4: Because those people aren't people who tend to come in
• 17:19
  Speaker 4: with protection or ego or a self-doubt that gets in
• 17:25
  Speaker 4: the way of them listening to what other people have
• 17:28
  Speaker 4: to say because they are congruent in their mission and
• 17:32
  Speaker 4: They know where it is that they want to get
• 17:34
  Speaker 4: to and they really genuinely care about it.
• 17:37
  Speaker 3: They're aligned in.
• 17:38
  Speaker 4: The way that they're operating so they have enough energy
• 17:41
  Speaker 4: generally to keep going because we're energised.
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: By doing things that we're good at and that we.
• 17:47
  Speaker 4: Like and that we want to bring other people along
• 17:51
  Speaker 4: for the ride because the ride feels pretty good.
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. I agree with all of that. I also...
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: do leadership stuff with companies. And one of my observations,
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: and I look, obviously I look through the Craig lens,
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: you look through the Tamsin lens, right? Not better, not worse,
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: just different. But one of my observations over time has
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: been that so many leaders, managers, CEOs, don't have necessarily,
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: a lot do, but there's quite a percentage that don't have,
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: seem to have great situational awareness, great social or emotional intelligence.
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: And they don't really think about how their team think.
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: They don't, you know, there's no theory of mind with them.
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: They don't understand somebody else's version of right now. Like
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: this conversation, this meeting, this problem solving situation, this conflict resolution.
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: because they're always looking through, for example, the Craig window.
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: So this is how it is. Well, no, bro, that's
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: just how it is for you. That's how it is.
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: And we're not you, Craig. We don't think like you.
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: We don't look through your window. We are literally in
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: a different experience. Yes, we're in the same room at
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: the same time. Yes, we're hearing the same stuff. But no,
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: we're not having the same experience. Do you ever think
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: about that stuff? That how do I communicate with this person?
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: versus that person, even though it's the same issue?
• 19:28
  Speaker 3: Well, yeah, I mean, absolutely. And that is kind of
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: the human experience, isn't it? And some people do that
• 19:33
  Speaker 3: well and some people don't. I think some leaders get
• 19:36
  Speaker 3: really caught up on, they've got in their head where
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: they're wanting to go.
• 19:41
  Speaker 4: So they've got the outcome in mind and they've got
• 19:43
  Speaker 4: their version of how they want to get there.
• 19:45
  Speaker 3: And they are just.
• 19:46
  Speaker 4: Gung-ho trying to get there as quickly as possible.
• 19:50
  Speaker 3: Can and that.
• 19:51
  Speaker 4: Speed and the desire to win and to succeed and
• 19:54
  Speaker 4: to get the outcome can prevent people from having the
• 19:58
  Speaker 4: patience and presence to be able to slow down and
• 20:02
  Speaker 4: actually take stock of the environment to have that awareness
• 20:06
  Speaker 4: and to have those conversations with people and And I
• 20:09
  Speaker 4: think people who are more oriented with the process and
• 20:13
  Speaker 4: that how are we as we're going toward where it
• 20:18
  Speaker 4: is that we want to go, how are we going.
• 20:20
  Speaker 3: About that.
• 20:22
  Speaker 4: As a group and how is that working for us?
• 20:25
  Speaker 3: Those are the people who tend to do really well.
• 20:28
  Speaker 3: And I see that.
• 20:30
  Speaker 4: I think some of it is a personality trait. Some
• 20:33
  Speaker 4: of it is a skill and some of it is
• 20:35
  Speaker 4: a system.
• 20:35
  Speaker 3: And I see that in three levers.
• 20:37
  Speaker 4: I think any behavior is actually more of a symptom.
• 20:42
  Speaker 3: Of three different areas. One of those being the environment.
• 20:45
  Speaker 4: So the culture, if you're in a workplace, the people,
• 20:49
  Speaker 4: places and prompts that surround you. One of those is
• 20:53
  Speaker 4: the physical state of your brain and body. So that
• 20:55
  Speaker 4: can be just your physical well-being. How well slept are you?
• 20:58
  Speaker 4: Have you eaten some good nutrition? Have you drank enough water?
• 21:01
  Speaker 4: Have you had some exercise?
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: But also, do you feel safe?
• 21:05
  Speaker 4: What's your nervous system like when you're coming into work?
• 21:08
  Speaker 4: And the third lever being your mindset, your thoughts, beliefs,
• 21:13
  Speaker 4: and your sense of identity. And I think a really
• 21:16
  Speaker 4: good leader understands that as a system. So they're not
• 21:20
  Speaker 4: only looking at the behaviors to say, how can I
• 21:23
  Speaker 4: fix this as quickly as possible? They're thinking, if 20
• 21:26
  Speaker 4: people in my organization or my team are exhibiting this behavior,
• 21:30
  Speaker 4: it's not the behavior that's the problem. There's something that's
• 21:33
  Speaker 4: generating it.
• 21:33
  Speaker 3: And that's what I need to get to the bottom of.
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: And it does require some presence and some patience.
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah. How might they do that? If we go, this
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: is the behavior, which is a byproduct of something that's happening.
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: How do we find out what the something is?
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: It's a curiosity and an exploration.
• 21:51
  Speaker 4: So by having conversations with people, I mean, when I'm
• 21:55
  Speaker 4: working with a team, I would literally.
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: Sit down with the three levers and have a look
• 22:00
  Speaker 3: at each of them to get to the bottom of
• 22:02
  Speaker 3: what's going on.
• 22:03
  Speaker 4: And it's really just through facilitating conversations, which requires some friction,
• 22:08
  Speaker 4: which requires not agreeing on things, which requires I'm going
• 22:12
  Speaker 4: a little bit deeper.
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: And again, that's time.
• 22:15
  Speaker 4: And often, depending on the culture, people can be afraid
• 22:19
  Speaker 4: of having those conversations as well.
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: But it does just take a bit of.
• 22:24
  Speaker 4: Pause to have a look at what are the conditions
• 22:28
  Speaker 4: that we're operating in here and what's the most likely cause.
• 22:31
  Speaker 3: And it's all still a hypothesis.
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, right.
• 22:35
  Speaker 4: So it's just working out what's the thing we can try?
• 22:38
  Speaker 4: What's the most likely thing that's causing this? What's the
• 22:40
  Speaker 4: thing that we can try? Let's try that for four
• 22:43
  Speaker 4: weeks and see if it makes a difference. And if
• 22:45
  Speaker 4: it doesn't, we'll try something else. And if it does,
• 22:47
  Speaker 4: will continue to evolve that idea.
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, beautiful. It's educator guessing all the time, isn't it?
• 22:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you can't really know.
• 22:55
  Speaker 4: No.
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: It's like when people ask me how do I change
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: this or do I go, it's still an educator guess.
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: Even with like I've trained tens of thousands of people
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: as in physical training as an exercise scientist, right, and
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: even when I, which I don't do much these days,
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: but let's say I write an exercise program that I
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: have done on repeat for 40 years, I'm still taking
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: an educated guess because I don't know exactly how this
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: physiology and biology will respond to this stimulus, to this plan.
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: So it's like what I'll do is I'll get as
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: much information as I can and then I will write
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: what I think is the best approach or the best
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: program or protocol. And I say to them, look, let's
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: do this. and let's see how we go. Because some
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: people will respond close to optimally, and some people will
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: be like, Craig, I am totally exhausted all the time.
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: I'm like, thanks for telling me. Let's recalibrate. So there
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: is a bit of high level trial and error, kind of,
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: which sounds a bit haphazard, but there's no other way, really.
• 24:03
  Speaker 4: There isn't any other way. And I think that's a
• 24:05
  Speaker 4: sign of a great leader. People who hold on too
• 24:07
  Speaker 4: tightly to their idea of how things should be or
• 24:11
  Speaker 4: wanting to be right are more likely to try and
• 24:14
  Speaker 4: protect it. And that's how we prevent ourselves from being
• 24:17
  Speaker 4: able to evolve. And with the rate.
• 24:19
  Speaker 3: That things are changing, our ability to be right and see.
• 24:23
  Speaker 4: The future and know what's coming next is just getting
• 24:26
  Speaker 4: less and less.
• 24:27
  Speaker 3: So there really isn't any other way than.
• 24:29
  Speaker 4: Just creating a hypothesis and testing it and seeing how
• 24:33
  Speaker 4: things go. And I think it's a great way to
• 24:35
  Speaker 4: operate with that, um, sports science.
• 24:38
  Speaker 3: Sort of testing. I call that, um, becoming your own
• 24:41
  Speaker 3: end of one experiment. You know, we're all different in
• 24:44
  Speaker 3: how we respond.
• 24:45
  Speaker 4: Even scientific studies are just a kind of averaging of
• 24:49
  Speaker 4: the population.
• 24:50
  Speaker 3: It doesn't mean that because.
• 24:51
  Speaker 4: Something is proven by science, it's definitely going to work
• 24:55
  Speaker 4: for everybody. When we're given a medication or we're given
• 24:59
  Speaker 4: a protocol, it's a test of how is this person
• 25:03
  Speaker 4: going to respond to that.
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: We need to make sure we're adapting.
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: My audience are listening to you going, She's just a
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: Craig because you just said exactly what I say, so beautiful.
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: We are in total alignment. If we want to be
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: a leader, we have ambition of leadership or to be
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: a better leader, what are some of the questions that
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: we might ask ourselves?
• 25:33
  Speaker 4: When I was not doing such a great job of leadership, I–
• 25:41
  Speaker 4: was thinking a lot about other people.
• 25:43
  Speaker 3: I was thinking, how can I make that person do better?
• 25:48
  Speaker 3: That's funny.
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah. It's understandable though.
• 25:53
  Speaker 4: Well, this is what we taught in leadership training is
• 25:56
  Speaker 4: let's do this behavioral profiling. Oh, where does that person sit?
• 26:00
  Speaker 4: Where does that person sit? And it's all other focused.
• 26:03
  Speaker 3: How do I run a good meeting?
• 26:05
  Speaker 4: Um, And it was only when I started to do
• 26:09
  Speaker 4: the work on myself and understand, you know, my tendencies.
• 26:13
  Speaker 3: And behaviours and the way that I operate and see
• 26:15
  Speaker 3: the world and unpack some of the stuff that.
• 26:18
  Speaker 4: Really needed to change that the world around me started
• 26:21
  Speaker 4: to change. So I think that to become a good leader,
• 26:24
  Speaker 4: you've got to do the work on yourself first. I
• 26:26
  Speaker 4: think we've got that back because we're getting a lot
• 26:28
  Speaker 4: better at that. But the reason that I got better
• 26:32
  Speaker 4: as a leader was because I.
• 26:34
  Speaker 3: Went and studied leadership.
• 26:35
  Speaker 4: A diploma in psychology and the only way that we
• 26:38
  Speaker 4: could do that particular course, it was the.
• 26:40
  Speaker 3: Only one in the world and it was up in Noosa,
• 26:42
  Speaker 3: which was.
• 26:43
  Speaker 4: Lovely because it was an immersive five-week training. And we
• 26:49
  Speaker 4: were there from 8 a.m.
• 26:50
  Speaker 3: To 6 p.m. And we weren't just learning theory.
• 26:54
  Speaker 4: We were learning these applied techniques of psychology and then
• 26:58
  Speaker 4: we were having to.
• 26:59
  Speaker 3: Test them on each other.
• 27:00
  Speaker 4: So it was basically five weeks of intensive therapy.
• 27:06
  Speaker 3: Um, and that.
• 27:09
  Speaker 4: Really changed things for me because it's really hard to,
• 27:12
  Speaker 4: to not see, see those things that you, um, you know,
• 27:18
  Speaker 4: your ego, your self protection, the worrying about what people think,
• 27:22
  Speaker 4: all of that stuff started to get dismantled. And then
• 27:25
  Speaker 4: when I came back from there, um, I felt like
• 27:28
  Speaker 4: everyone around me changed.
• 27:29
  Speaker 3: But it wasn't them. It was me.
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: That's right. That's so good. And that's the thing. It's
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: like our willingness and ability, even as leaders, to be
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: able to acknowledge all our own flaws without beating ourselves up.
• 27:45
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: Just going, okay, so I'm pretty bad at that.
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: I should get better. Or, yeah, that is the, I mean,
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: I've been doing, you know, a similar version of what
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: you do for a long time. And I'm like, Yeah,
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: I still wouldn't call myself great at it. I would
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: say it depends. Like some days I'm shit. Most days
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: I'm somewhere between average and pretty good, I guess, but
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: not always, you know. And then that even, as I
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: said to you before we started, right, I've had a
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: really busy morning, which is great, and, you know, this
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: is appointment number six or seven almost in a row,
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: and I'm like I still need to be able to
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: show up For Tamsin and the audience, which I actually
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: feel very good anyway, so it's not a big struggle,
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: but with great energy, with a great attitude, like this
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: is the first thing I've done all day and I'm excited.
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: I need to self-manage and self-regulate and be self-aware, situationally
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: aware so that there's no kind of, oh, my God,
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: I can't wait for lunch, right? There's that, which I can't,
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: by the way, but I don't want you to know that.
• 28:56
  Speaker 4: You're doing a great job of it, of the self-management,
• 28:58
  Speaker 4: but it's such a skill.
• 28:59
  Speaker 3: It's such a skill.
• 29:00
  Speaker 4: And, you know, while we're worrying about not being good
• 29:03
  Speaker 4: enough or, you know, having this imposter syndrome or worrying
• 29:06
  Speaker 4: about what people think, all of those things, moments we're
• 29:10
  Speaker 4: just thinking about ourselves and then we're not able to
• 29:12
  Speaker 4: be there for the person who actually needs us to
• 29:15
  Speaker 4: listen to what they've got to say because it's not
• 29:18
  Speaker 4: about us and when you can get to that point
• 29:21
  Speaker 4: and know that your role really is to be there
• 29:23
  Speaker 4: for whoever else regardless of you know what they what
• 29:28
  Speaker 4: you think they think of you um that's when you
• 29:30
  Speaker 4: can do a really great.
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: Job yes My whole PhD was that, metaperception, understanding how
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: people see you. I think also this is very unacademic
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: and unscientific, but when I had lots of personal trainers
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: work for me, so I opened the first PT centre
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: in Australia and then a few more. But I always
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: used to talk to my trainers, Tamsin, about, their performance threshold,
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: or I would call it their shit threshold. And what
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: I mean by that is I would ask them, how
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: many sessions of PT can you deliver per day? And
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: all of them are at the same level. like of
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: the same quality? So your focus, your attention, your energy,
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: your professionalism, how many of those can you do a day?
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: And if the answer is three, then I'm like, well,
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: that's your limit. You know, it's like, or maybe eight.
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: I'm like, can you really do eight a day? Or
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: maybe I can do three in the morning and three
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: more in the afternoon. But so like with me, for example,
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: if I have to do a whole weekend, which I
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: don't do a lot, but I do every now and then,
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: I've almost got to physically, mentally, emotionally prep like I'm
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: going to the Olympics because it is very hard to
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: do eight to 10 hours, two days in a row
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: and be on because you want to be the best
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: version of you so that they have the best experience
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: and get the best learning. That's a kind of a
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: challenge for people.
• 31:11
  Speaker 4: It is and I don't think we take a lot
• 31:13
  Speaker 4: of time to understand that about ourselves.
• 31:15
  Speaker 3: I physically couldn't do two days. I am an introvert.
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: I can, you know, get on stage and.
• 31:22
  Speaker 4: Talk in front of hundreds of people but I'll do
• 31:25
  Speaker 4: that for an hour and then I need to go home.
• 31:27
  Speaker 3: I need to retreat.
• 31:31
  Speaker 4: You know, I can do a half-day workshop but I'm
• 31:33
  Speaker 4: not going out to lunch with the team and then
• 31:35
  Speaker 4: coming back into the room because I need that time
• 31:38
  Speaker 4: to recharge my social media batteries.
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: And I've learned that about myself over time.
• 31:44
  Speaker 4: I could return back and be a shell of a
• 31:47
  Speaker 4: human for the afternoon, but I can't operate at that level.
• 31:50
  Speaker 4: But many of us haven't done the work to understand,
• 31:53
  Speaker 4: you know, what conditions do I need to operate really
• 31:56
  Speaker 4: well and how can I do the best to create
• 31:59
  Speaker 4: those for myself? At the same time, doing the best
• 32:03
  Speaker 4: job you can with your body to increase your capacity,
• 32:06
  Speaker 4: you know, to give it the optimal performance. to be
• 32:10
  Speaker 4: able to perform in the best way that it can.
• 32:13
  Speaker 4: We've all got different environments that work best for us
• 32:17
  Speaker 4: and understanding those can be really important. With us, you know,
• 32:20
  Speaker 4: we've got a bit more flexibility over the way that
• 32:22
  Speaker 4: we can set our days up. That's not true for everybody,
• 32:25
  Speaker 4: but there's always something that you can do to make it,
• 32:29
  Speaker 4: to prepare your day in a way that makes it
• 32:31
  Speaker 4: more likely you'll show up in the best way you
• 32:33
  Speaker 4: can for yourself and others.
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's such a good question. You know, what's the
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: environment that I need to create or the energy or
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: even down to like I think about my food, which
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: sounds weird, but if I don't organize my food for
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: the day, I end up like I need to eat
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: a certain way and I need to be able to.
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: So I'm not going to in a corporate event, I'm
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: probably not going to eat what they're going to eat
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: at lunch just because I'm a bit fussy and a
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: pain in the ass. But if I sat down and
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: ate a heavy meal at lunch, which most people do,
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: which is why talking after lunch is a shit job
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: as a speaker, but anyway, yeah, I'd be terrible. So
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: not only do I need to know what is optimal
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: in terms of tools and resources and environment and structure
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: through the day, but what's optimal for my brain? How
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: do I make my brain work as well as it
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: can for as long as it can? Yeah, so have
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: you ever been.
• 33:33
  Speaker 3: I think we underestimate that. I.
• 33:37
  Speaker 3: Recently, and I think you're aware of this because.
• 33:39
  Speaker 4: I had to reschedule, but my dad passed away two
• 33:43
  Speaker 4: months ago and it was unexpected and.
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: It's been a really, really difficult time.
• 33:49
  Speaker 4: And I've had to ask myself lots of questions because,
• 33:52
  Speaker 4: you know, I'm still running two businesses.
• 33:54
  Speaker 3: I've still got speaking gigs. I still need to show
• 33:56
  Speaker 3: up for myself and others. I've got two little kids.
• 33:58
  Speaker 3: My life doesn't stop.
• 34:01
  Speaker 4: You know, what can I do that's going to give
• 34:04
  Speaker 4: me the best opportunity chance at being able to operate okay.
• 34:09
  Speaker 4: And I decided, you know, I gave myself a month
• 34:13
  Speaker 4: of just not.
• 34:16
  Speaker 3: Worrying about too much at all.
• 34:18
  Speaker 4: But then I thought, okay, I'm going to do 10,000
• 34:21
  Speaker 4: steps a day.
• 34:22
  Speaker 3: I'm going to drink two litres of water and I'm
• 34:25
  Speaker 3: going to do the.
• 34:25
  Speaker 4: Best I can of having just the basics of nutrition,
• 34:29
  Speaker 4: just making sure I've got decent food on hand, having
• 34:32
  Speaker 4: protein in my breakfast, like just getting the balance right.
• 34:36
  Speaker 3: Of nutrients that I need to go about my day
• 34:39
  Speaker 3: and that's all. Like that's it. That's all I'm going
• 34:41
  Speaker 3: to do for myself and I'm going to see how
• 34:43
  Speaker 3: that goes. I feel fantastic.
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, great.
• 34:47
  Speaker 3: And we know.
• 34:49
  Speaker 4: We know the basics of sleep, water, movement, nutrition, but
• 34:53
  Speaker 4: I think we overcomplicate them to the point that we
• 34:55
  Speaker 4: don't do them. But just taking care of those basics,
• 34:59
  Speaker 4: at least physically, makes me be able to show up
• 35:03
  Speaker 4: even when I might be feeling emotional or.
• 35:07
  Speaker 3: Not as sharp as I usually would.
• 35:10
  Speaker 4: Being able to come in with a physically well and
• 35:13
  Speaker 4: strong body has created a platform.
• 35:16
  Speaker 3: For me to be able to do things I don't
• 35:18
  Speaker 3: think I would have been able to otherwise.
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: You do not know. My audience are right now thinking
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: about something because most of them know. You don't know
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: how much alignment and weirdness there is going on right now.
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: So I'll explain to you. Firstly, sorry to hear about
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: your dad. My dad died two months ago.
• 35:37
  Speaker 3: Oh, my gosh.
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 35:41
  Speaker 3: I'm sorry to hear that. That is.
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: And as you're saying this, I'm like, wow, this is,
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: you really are a female me. I really am. I'm like, oh,
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: this is now getting weird. But anyway, I'm sorry to
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: hear about that. But yes, it is. It's like improvise, adapt, overcome, right?
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: It's like, all right, well, this is what is going on.
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: This is hard. This is all the things. Yeah. And
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: how are you now? How are you now with that?
• 36:13
  Speaker 4: Yeah, look, I think I'm getting through it. You know,
• 36:17
  Speaker 4: you obviously know what it's like. I go for a
• 36:20
  Speaker 4: morning walk and there are moments where things just happen
• 36:24
  Speaker 4: and I'll start crying. And I think that's a good thing.
• 36:27
  Speaker 4: I do think it's a good thing. And sometimes I'll
• 36:30
  Speaker 4: just have a moment where it pops into my head.
• 36:32
  Speaker 3: And I'll be like, he's not here anymore. But, you know, a.
• 36:38
  Speaker 4: Lot of the time I am still able to go
• 36:40
  Speaker 4: about my day and appreciate, you.
• 36:44
  Speaker 3: Dad's life was very complex and I write about it
• 36:47
  Speaker 3: a lot in the book. So it was pretty awful circumstances.
• 36:50
  Speaker 5: So there's a lot to unpack and I'm doing it
• 36:53
  Speaker 5: very slowly and gradually, but I am starting to be
• 36:56
  Speaker 5: able to pull out the good stuff that can help
• 36:58
  Speaker 5: me learn and progress and move forward and, you know,
• 37:02
  Speaker 5: close the door and frame it up in a way
• 37:04
  Speaker 5: that is kind of useful for myself, which without context,
• 37:08
  Speaker 5: that might sound like.
• 37:09
  Speaker 3: A very strange thing. If you read the book, you'll understand.
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: A little bit more.
• 37:13
  Speaker 4: Um but yeah some days are hard some days are
• 37:18
  Speaker 4: easier it's a lot and I think I will forever
• 37:21
  Speaker 4: be processing but I'm.
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: Doing all right well I'm glad there's definitely no three-step
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: plan for death and grief no it's it's like you
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: know some people almost infer No, they don't. They mean well,
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: but it's almost like I get the vibe from some
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: people that they think I'm not grieving enough. I'm like,
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: I just don't grieve in public. You know, there's plenty
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: of stuff going on, but I totally understand it.
• 37:52
  Speaker 3: How have you been looking after yourself?
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I just, I kind of have a gorgeous four
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: foot 11 distraction called my mother, who is 87. And yeah,
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: really needs me. So, uh, you know, basically since, you know,
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: dad passed away, um, um, it's like, I'm, I'm the
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: dad now almost it's like, and mom, she's gorgeous, but
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: she's had some real challenges and she's, there's a little
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: bit of, you know, cognitive stuff going on, which you
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: would understand. And, uh, she had a bad fall a
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: week and a half ago, smashed her head on a
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: hard floor, got a brain bleed, had a brain bleed,
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: terrible concussion, a bunch of stitches, nearly bled out on
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: the floor of a cafe because she's so little and
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: has so little blood volume. So there was three days
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: of just fucking trauma. But, you know, so it's been
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: an interesting journey.
• 39:01
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: And literally I handed in my PhD thesis about a
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: week before dad died. And so you understand study, you
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: understand the commitment and then five podcasts a week, corporate speaking,
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: coaching people, which is, and there's not one bit of
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: complaint in all of this. It's just the practical reality
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: of my life. And yeah, I am, we're probably digressing
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: a little bit, but I think it's interesting. I, for
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: whatever reason, maybe it's just luck. I'm quite good at
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: compartmentalizing in a healthy way, not an unhealthy way. And
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: I'm also quite good at just switching off. So I,
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: which I don't think I've ever said this on the podcast.
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: Maybe I have, but I will often at 2 o'clock
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: in the afternoon, I've been up for eight hours or
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: eight and a half hours, I've done a bunch of work,
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: I will go into my bedroom and watch an hour
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: of Netflix and leave the phone in another room because
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: I work at home and I'll just watch some bullshit
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: series and get right into the whatever it is and
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: then I'll get up and I may have a shower.
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: At the very least, I'll splash my face. clean my
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: teeth and just reset and off I go. So I
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: think that as you were talking about N equals one,
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: like we're always trying to figure out how we work optimally.
• 40:29
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: And the way, like my ideal operating system, I would
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: not recommend to anyone else because they're not me. You know,
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: not better, not worse, just different. And so, yeah. Like
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: a little siesta. Yeah.
• 40:45
  Speaker 4: Ah.
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: It's a steep learning curve going through what you've been through.
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: But I wanted to ask you about one of the–
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: I read it 100 years ago, so I can't remember
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: all the specifics, but John C. Maxwell wrote a book
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: called The 21 Irrefutable Laws of Leadership. It's old. It's
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: probably 30 years old. But one of the chapters or
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: one of the key concepts in that was to have people,
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: your team, like– buy into your vision, hopefully. What do
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: you think of that as an idea?
• 41:27
  Speaker 3: I think it's necessary. I'm just thinking of a particular.
• 41:30
  Speaker 4: Organisation that I've worked with recently who's basically had a
• 41:36
  Speaker 4: whole identity shift. So they've gone from being one particular
• 41:40
  Speaker 4: type of small family-like business to.
• 41:43
  Speaker 3: Being like a big corporate machine over the space of
• 41:47
  Speaker 3: a few years.
• 41:48
  Speaker 4: And the people who were involved in that organisation at
• 41:51
  Speaker 4: the beginning when I was working with them, they were
• 41:54
  Speaker 4: drawn to that because it was this smaller family-like field.
• 41:59
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 42:00
  Speaker 4: And then their needing to come along for the ride
• 42:03
  Speaker 4: was to completely shift of now we're a corporate that's
• 42:08
  Speaker 4: going toward this whole different area. Yes.
• 42:11
  Speaker 3: And that was so hard for people.
• 42:14
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 42:15
  Speaker 3: And a lot of them did leave. And I think
• 42:17
  Speaker 3: that makes sense.
• 42:18
  Speaker 4: Again, when you come back to that congruence thing, it's,
• 42:21
  Speaker 4: you know, being aligned with where you're going and what
• 42:25
  Speaker 4: you want and what you believe and what you think.
• 42:30
  Speaker 3: We all want to be working.
• 42:31
  Speaker 4: Towards something that means something to to us and I
• 42:34
  Speaker 4: don't think we can force that I don't think there's
• 42:36
  Speaker 4: any sort of spin that's going to make someone that's
• 42:39
  Speaker 4: you know not aligned with a vision to suddenly be
• 42:42
  Speaker 4: aligned with it I think you're either somehow for some
• 42:46
  Speaker 4: reason compelled toward a particular vision or you're or you're
• 42:51
  Speaker 4: not you know you might be a fence sitter that
• 42:53
  Speaker 4: can can go either way um but for most people
• 42:57
  Speaker 4: they they have things that they're going to get on
• 43:00
  Speaker 4: board with and things that they're not but I don't
• 43:02
  Speaker 4: think I would want to be working somewhere where I
• 43:04
  Speaker 4: didn't have a connection to the vision, but maybe that's
• 43:07
  Speaker 4: not everyone. You know, like we were saying, we're all different.
• 43:10
  Speaker 4: Some people just want to go to work and do
• 43:13
  Speaker 4: their tasks and go home.
• 43:15
  Speaker 3: They've got a vision for their life that's not work-related.
• 43:17
  Speaker 3: That's okay.
• 43:19
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: It's like I started working in a milk bar and
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: now we're a supermarket. How did that happen?
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: I didn't sign up for that.
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 43:27
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 43:28
  Speaker 3: But it all depends on what your reason to going
• 43:30
  Speaker 3: to work is.
• 43:31
  Speaker 4: You know, if I was working in a milk bar
• 43:32
  Speaker 4: because I love having those small conversations with Joe down
• 43:35
  Speaker 4: the road who comes in every morning and gets his
• 43:40
  Speaker 4: and I love that small milk bar feel and that's
• 43:42
  Speaker 4: why I do my job, then that would be really hard.
• 43:44
  Speaker 4: But if it's like I just go to work to
• 43:48
  Speaker 4: make my, you know, whatever dollars an hour so that
• 43:50
  Speaker 4: I can go home and work in my veggie garden
• 43:53
  Speaker 4: with my dog, maybe you don't care whether it's the
• 43:57
  Speaker 4: supermarket or the milk bar. Yes.
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and there's no right or wrong with this stuff. No.
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: When I describe my job to people, a lot of
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: people are like, I would hate that job. I go,
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: I don't blame you. It's like I would hate your job.
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: It doesn't mean it's a good job. Not a good job.
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: It just would not be a good job for me.
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: Like I figured out when I was in my early 20s,
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: And I was working in gyms, managing gyms by the
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: time I was 22 and three, running staff, had a boss,
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: had an owner. I was, of course, and that's how
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: it should be. But me having a job, me having
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: a boss, it's probably a personality flaw, but it just
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: didn't do it for me. It's like all I could
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: think of from when I was about 20 was how
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: do I work for me? Like I didn't want to
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: not work. I wanted to work. but I wanted to
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: create my own thing so that I could work as
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: hard as I want or not, when I want or not.
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: I could have a vision for the business. I could create,
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: I could fuck up and get up, fall down, get
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: back up, learn, unlearn. And for me, like for me,
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: business development is more of a creative journey than a
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: business journey. It's like, I love taking an idea and
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: even if it's like I've got a workshop coming up
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: in Melbourne. By the way, everybody, I think it's early November,
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: but it's called Life on Purpose. Come along. But I
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: have an idea, and then I'll turn that idea into
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: a concept, then I'll flesh it out, and then within
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: a relatively short period of time, not that it's a
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: big project or anything, but it's gone from an idea
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: in my head to uh an overview a synopsis a
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: title we've got a venue we've got a price we've
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: got a payment gateway and now it's a real thing
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: it's like i love that creating stuff and lots of
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: stuff that i've created hasn't worked some of it's been
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: awesome some of it's been the opposite but i still
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: love that process of develop something iterate iterate iterate and
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: then you know So I think the way that we
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: work and the environment that we work in, like what
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: is optimal for us is totally varied, right?
• 46:24
  Speaker 3: Absolutely.
• 46:25
  Speaker 4: I mean, we share that in common as well. I
• 46:28
  Speaker 4: certainly have had that drive to want to do my
• 46:30
  Speaker 4: own thing. I used to, after getting my medical imaging degree,
• 46:33
  Speaker 4: because I didn't know that about myself, I didn't know
• 46:35
  Speaker 4: what I wanted to do, but I got my medical
• 46:37
  Speaker 4: imaging degree and I afterwards kept thinking, why did I
• 46:41
  Speaker 4: do that degree?
• 46:42
  Speaker 3: Because I can't.
• 46:43
  Speaker 4: Own my own medical imaging business and I ended up
• 46:47
  Speaker 4: finding my way through but I love that process of
• 46:49
  Speaker 4: creation but I do think it can be really hard
• 46:52
  Speaker 4: for people particularly if they're listening now thinking I know
• 46:56
  Speaker 4: that I'm not in the right place I know that
• 46:59
  Speaker 4: this isn't it but I don't really know what is
• 47:01
  Speaker 4: it it can be feel really hard and frustrating and
• 47:05
  Speaker 4: there's something that I do with clients and the activity
• 47:08
  Speaker 4: is actually in the book and it's called horizon setting
• 47:12
  Speaker 4: um and it's forget forget the titles, forget the particular jobs,
• 47:16
  Speaker 4: forget the particular places. It's right up high level and
• 47:20
  Speaker 4: start to look at who, what kind of people do
• 47:24
  Speaker 4: you want to be surrounded with? What kind of environment
• 47:27
  Speaker 4: do you want to be in? What kind of principles
• 47:30
  Speaker 4: do you want to live by?
• 47:31
  Speaker 5: What kind of meaning.
• 47:34
  Speaker 3: Do you want to get from your work? What's the
• 47:36
  Speaker 3: impact that you want to make? And how do you
• 47:38
  Speaker 3: want to feel? on your average sort of weekday. You know,
• 47:41
  Speaker 3: it's a Wednesday morning, you're waking up and you're going
• 47:43
  Speaker 3: to work. How do you want to feel?
• 47:45
  Speaker 4: So take it up that high level and then take
• 47:48
  Speaker 4: a look at.
• 47:50
  Speaker 3: How far off am I between where I am and
• 47:54
  Speaker 3: where that is.
• 47:54
  Speaker 4: People don't want to look at that, particularly if it
• 47:56
  Speaker 4: feels so far away and so impossible.
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 48:01
  Speaker 4: But what I encourage people to do is to actually
• 48:03
  Speaker 4: stare it in the face and then say, what's one
• 48:06
  Speaker 4: thing that I can do that's just a step in
• 48:10
  Speaker 4: that direction. And from then on, it becomes your decision-making tool.
• 48:13
  Speaker 4: It's like, is it taking me toward the horizon or away,
• 48:16
  Speaker 4: toward or away? And suddenly if you start running these
• 48:20
  Speaker 4: life experiments that are like, well, I think that's toward,
• 48:23
  Speaker 4: I'm going to give that a go and then see what.
• 48:24
  Speaker 3: The next step unfolds.
• 48:27
  Speaker 4: You can find that you're evolving yourself from where you
• 48:31
  Speaker 4: are now to where you want to be over time without.
• 48:35
  Speaker 3: Having to blow up your life.
• 48:37
  Speaker 4: So if you're sitting there thinking I haven't found that
• 48:39
  Speaker 4: thing for myself, that was definitely me. I can remember
• 48:43
  Speaker 4: being in my 20s, standing in a medical imaging room
• 48:46
  Speaker 4: surrounded by light boxes, telling the lady I was.
• 48:48
  Speaker 3: Working with that I don't think I'll ever be one
• 48:50
  Speaker 3: of those people. I actually didn't say I don't think.
• 48:52
  Speaker 4: I said I won't ever be one of those people
• 48:55
  Speaker 4: who loves what they do and that's okay.
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 48:58
  Speaker 3: Wow. So I'd close the door. I'd call it a day.
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: You'd resigned.
• 49:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 49:03
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: Gosh, it sounds so ridiculous now, but I just didn't
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: think it was possible. But little by little, life has
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: opened up in the most incredible way because I did
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: some scary stuff and I took some risks and I
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: took some steps and I didn't know that I was
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: going to write a book so I would have said
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: I was insane if I went back to that version
• 49:25
  Speaker 2: of myself and told them now I'm running a an
• 49:28
  Speaker 2: absorbent underwear company I've.
• 49:29
  Speaker 3: Just written a book and I spend most of my
• 49:31
  Speaker 3: time coaching and speaking um.
• 49:34
  Speaker 4: But it doesn't all happen at once and it doesn't
• 49:38
  Speaker 4: have to.
• 49:38
  Speaker 3: So if it feels impossible, that's okay. It's meant to.
• 49:42
  Speaker 4: Just take some little steps and run some little experiments and.
• 49:46
  Speaker 3: See where you end up.
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: I love it. Two things out of that that came
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: to me. One is the idea of anti-goals, which is
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: a Craigism, which is figuring out what you don't want. <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL>
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: I don't, you know, like, do I want that guy
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: telling me what to do every day? It's not that
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: he's a bad human, but do I want that? I
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: definitely don't. So for me, the catalyst was just trying
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: to get away from all the things that I didn't
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: enjoy or I didn't want to be doing. It's great stuff.
• 50:50
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: I forgot the other one. It doesn't matter. So the book, everyone,
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: is called The Experiment Mindset. As I always say, Christmas
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: is coming up. Go and get five copies. Unlocking the
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: Science of Personal Growth. Tamsin, you're great. You're very interesting.
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: You're very smart. And I probably shouldn't point out that
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: we're quite similar because it sounds like I'm blowing up
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: my own tyres. But I loved meeting you. I think
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: you should come back and we should have another chat
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: one day.
• 51:19
  Speaker 3: I would love that. Anytime. It's been a great chat.
• 51:22
  Speaker 3: Really interesting.
• 51:23
  Speaker 1: Is the book on audio?
• 51:25
  Speaker 3: Not yet.
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: Oh, come on.
• 51:27
  Speaker 4: So if there's any audio book publishers listening, give me
• 51:30
  Speaker 4: a call.
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: Well, so lovely to meet you. I appreciate you and
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: your wisdom and insight and time and energy. We'll talk again.
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: We'll say goodbye air. But for the minute, thanks for
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: being on the You Project.
• 51:45
  Speaker 3: Thanks so much for having me.
• 51:47
  Speaker 4: Thanks, Tamsin.