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S1E5: If You're Firing Someone, You Probably Failed Them First · Biblical Business Podcast

• Calvin Seamons: If somebody's underperforming, it is a direct reflection of your lack of leadership. So if I'm firing somebody, then I have failed them most likely as a leader. So where how how has running a biblical business changed the way that you fire somebody? I'm a lot nicer. I'm a lot nicer. One, I don't fire as fast. So I know that there's a big philosophy on, you know, hire slow, fire fast. I don't think the biblical worldview is to fire fast. I think it's to be diligent. So it it's changed that. And the reason I jokingly say I'm a lot nicer is because when I was in the corporate world, it was really just you actually don't you want to say as little as possible. And it's going to be purely the facts of whatever's in front of us. Don't insert any emotions, don't talk about anything else, and then l let it go, leave it at the door, grab your box and they're gone. And that was a very, very cold experience. So in in that experience, I wasn't able to really care for people in the way that I would want. I feel like even based on the conversations we've had in the past, if you're gonna let someone go, they see it from a mile away. Like they have all the warning signs. And I and from what you've described in your process of letting someone go, it is very thorough. Like, and I want you to kind of talk about that process and how you developed it over time. You know, it I actually was talking to a coaching client about this this morning who sent me a voice note about a family member who they hired. And that family member started to just basically not show up at work. They were trying to do him a solid by getting them a job. They started calling out a lot. They started getting sick a lot. All these things started happening. And, you know, this business owner said, I know that, you know, I'm in the spot where I haven't held them accountable, but how do I deal with this? Like I know where this is going. And, you know, they they came back and I had this conversation. And essentially, like, it went the exact opposite way that I thought it would. They they actually wanted even more than I thought before. And My response was that this is where you can actually apply the corporate knowledge really, really well. So the whole idea of a performance improvement process or a pip is the the acronym that's used in corporate, it's actually really good. And so for me, what what has transpired is that there is a lot of grace that can come along with accountability. So first you set an actual process like, hey, I'm going to give you a verbal warning and then I'm going to document that. This is a warning about the things that you haven't done and this is what the expectation is. Then you move to a written, right? Okay. Hey, this is a 30 day written warning. Here are the things that have happened. Here are the things that need to happen between now and the end of the 30 days. And if they don't, then up to an including termination. You you can use this kind of language. You set really clear boundaries for the person in front of you. But then you have the opportunity as a small business owner to extend that further than what the corporate world might want you to. Right. And I think that's where the overcorrection comes. You have a lot of people say, well, just fire them fast. You know where this is going. But the the reality is if you actually care about this person, if somebody's underperforming, it is a direct reflection of your lack of leadership. Let's just start right there. If you can't swallow that, then you you you are already down the wrong path. And I say that as somebody who has had to terminate people, right? Wait, can you can you go deeper into that? I think that you skimmed over something that is really important and I don't know if I fully follow. Yeah. Yeah. So if I'm firing somebody, then I have failed them most likely as a leader. And what I mean by that is in this scenario, for example, or in scenarios that I've been in. I've not held them accountable along the way. I've not been clear along the way. Usually by the time you get to some of these call it performance improvement plans, it comes from a lack of clarity, a lack of accountability, maybe a bad hiring process, maybe you didn't set expectations up front, maybe you changed things too fast. A lot of things that are within your control as a leader. I'm not saying you do the job for people. Of course. You know, they're you can't do the work for them. And there that's where that point comes where it's like, okay, look, here are the things I expect from you in this next 30 days. What can I do along the way? What do you need from me to make sure you have everything you need to be successful in this role? And you mean that. You you actually are trying to. There's the whole corporate, like, we're gonna manage someone out. It's a very toxic approach. And really they're saying, like, we're gonna apply so much pressure to them along the way that they're gonna quit. And so can you give me an example? Like having never really worked in the size of corporate like that, what does that look like? Yeah. So that looks like, here's Joe. we don't like Joe. We don't want Joe here. So we need to manage him out. So what does managing him out look like? we're going to apply really concentrated pressure to him. And then we're going to hold him accountable to everything in front of him along the way to make it so that. He if he gets it right, right, then he can continue. But if he doesn't, he's on his way out. And we already know he's probably on his way out. So we're going to go through this process to manage him to the place that he's already going to get to, but to cover our butts legally from a corporate perspective. And the difference when you're running a biblical business is that you can still apply the accountability because you are a steward of that business. But your heart is not to manage them out. Your heart is to see them actually change and do better. It you can't do it for them, though. So there still comes the place where you might get to the end of that and you're like, hey, we set the guidelines. You know, we talk about this, right? If if you set a priority for the month and you fail, you're the one who pitched the idea. It was your idea. You you were able to ask questions and for help along the way. And then at the end of the month, it was either failed or executed, if that happens over and over and over, I can't do that work for you. You have to do that work. And so that's where it becomes like, well, it's clear that this isn't a good fit. and that's the the best thing for both the company and the employee is for them to move on to something else. So basically it is a period of, hey, verbal warning, 30 days. And an important piece of that is how can I help you? Like ending it with how can I help you to be able to achieve that. Yes. And laying out clearly the expectations of hey, this is what you're doing and this is what needs to change. Yes. And I'd say that the time but the time frame I would say on that verbal and really on any of these is open. It's an open aperture. Like do with it what you want. Those are just good guidelines. A month is a good good period of time, sixty days, ninety days. You can set your periods however you want them to be. The the the timing isn't important, the process is. And historically, is it typically about thirty for you or it depends? Typically it's gonna be thirty and then sixty and then ninety. Typically you're gonna get at least three months down the line. And then I would I would just add that you you asked how do you how does it make different how you fire people? A lot of times I won't fire people. I'll I'll give them an opportunity to do a different job that more appropriately fits their skill set or their desires. So another way to do that is not toxically. Hey, I'm just gonna move Joe from here to here so he doesn't but hey, maybe you're better at this thing. Let's give you a shot. Do you want to do this? Are you willing to try this? I'll give you another shot to try something else. So it's just another way to extend some grace. And and so okay, I want to come I wanna double click into that in a second. So basically, roughly verbal warning 30 days, written warning 30 days, and then some sort of we're about to make a transition. Final written warning. Yeah, final basically verbal, written, final written. Got it. how many how many times over the course of your career when running it like a biblical business have you actually had to do this? To actually take the person to a termination. Mm-hmm. Or a secondary job description? Once. secondary job description? Multiple times. Got it. Multiple times. Yeah. I've taken them down the path of accountability and then that led to them taking on a different scope. And then in other scenarios, people have bowed out. Yeah. So during that during that same process, they have decided and seen, because the roads and accountability was clear, that like they didn't want to do that or they couldn't do it or they weren't willing to do it. and so they've they've, you know, decided to to go do something else. And and so typically in In those situations, it's like, hey, here's a new updated job description that fits more of what you're doing with some sort of a lower pay. And it is an option. Basically, it's like, hey, it's an opportunity for me to still love you. And whether you want to stay, I could understand if you want to leave and if you want to go find a different job that pays what you were making previously, or maybe you leave of your own volition. I've done both. I've done where they get the same pay. And they just transitioned to a different job. And there's been others where it was clearly like we don't have another job, but this other job is a redu way reduced scope. I think there's people who l leverage the lower pay strategy to try and get people to quit. Again, that's like the manage people out approach. so it's a heart check always. Yeah. You know, are you actually trying to get them into something that they're going to enjoy that's gonna be good for them, good for the company? Or is your heart just trying to figure out how to get them out? You know, and I think that's That's you that's a really important question for leaders in businesses. Yeah. So then I I kind of want to ask about like more the heart side of it. Like when you're having to get to a place where you're taking them down that track. I know that you said it's like it's still an opportunity to love them. And you're even asking the question of how can I help you? And so what I'm particularly curious of is what's going on for you. in these situations because for them it's a really vulnerable moment and it hurts and I'm sure it feels there's a lot of shame and maybe anger that is coming alongside this. Yeah. And so how have you kind of seen the Lord work in your heart or in those moments where it feels like a season of this just sucks? Yeah, it's heartbreaking. I I hate it's it's the worst part of anything I ever have to do in business. And I mean, I have I have gone if you can think of the scenario, I've gone through it when it comes to having to either terminate somebody because of changes in the business or terminate them before something that they did or didn't do, terminate them before like there's it it is I I I never that never gets easy, ever. And it doesn't matter how many I had to deal with, it it it it wrecks you as a leader because Every time I approach it, I feel a deep sense of failure. I feel like I've failed that person. whether or not they decided to do their work, there's still a sense of ownership for me that I didn't I didn't do what I needed to do to serve them well. And I would say the one of the greatest feelings on the flip side of that is several people, pe lots of people that I know who I have literally terminated or have quit. still talk to me or ask me to be their mentor or ask for my advice today. And I think that's really like that's when I know I've I gave it my best and I represented the Lord well through the process is when somebody's like, okay, hey, I'm gonna still come back to you because I value your your opinion and your thoughts, even though this ended this way. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Could you I I really want to Also understand, like first off, let me fully agree. It sucks. And it is the worst part of the job. and it's one of those it's like I wish I never had to fire anyone ever again. Yeah. And I know that it's inevitable. Yep. And and also if you get f if you get fired, it's not the end of the world. A lot of times it's the beginning of something brand new God has for you. So don't let that shame sit with you. It's just a headspace, just move, you know, keep keep moving. Yeah. How do you typically frame those conversations? Let's say it's like, okay, we're we're having the written or the verbal conversation. you know, is it like an Oreo method kind of deal? Do you cut right into it? Like how how do you think about it? Yeah, I definitely take a little bit of the corporate in attempting to be really clear, but I bring then kind of the human, right? Like the human element. So You know, it's gonna sound like somet something like, Hey McLean, wanted to meet with you today. here are some of the things that have been going on that have been really concerning. And I wanna kind of call them out to you. Here's some of the stuff that we've talked about. Here's the expectations, whatever the clear expectations were. And here's where you've fallen short on those things. That's something that I need you, we need you to deliver on as a part of the role that you're doing here. And so I want you to consider this. This is a verbal warning. For you to step into doing these things well. I'm here to serve you. Whatever you need from me, I'm going to give you. But at the end of the day, you need to do the job. You're gonna have to do the work. So I mean, that's like that tone is the tone of how it goes for me. and I'm not in control of the way people respond to it. As you might imagine, different people respond in different ways. And that's why corporate trains people to be cold. Because it's it's a dangerous thing for corporate when you start sharing some sort of emotion. Right. So for example, if I'm in a corporate environment and I say, Man, I really don't want to do this. you've just really opened up a door. Cause then the person's like, What do you mean? Of course you want to do now. There's these feelings that come up. And so if it's just like very cold and calculated, Then you don't have to deal with the human on the other side of it. And so for me, I want people to know that I actually care about them, but I am also going to hold them accountable to the job that they have been asked and are have agreed to do. That is good stewardship. And it is bad stewardship for me to not ask them to deliver on that. Because it's not the thing about, just kind of on the subject of underperformance. The thing about not addressing underperformers is that it's not just them. It's everyone around you who's watching and going, that's what's acceptable. Right. There's the per you actually affect the performers because they go, well, he can just kind of get away with whatever. He isn't even doing the job. And this guy's still here. Why does that guy still have a job? Right. And so now they your leadership again is in question because they're going, he just accepts that because, and then they start filling in the blanks for you. They're friends, they're this, they're whatever. and so stewardship is it's it's God's idea, and that's why it works so well. If you if you really operate as a steward, things are just exponentially better across the board. And so you you kind of hit on what a verbal warning looks like. I can imagine, you know, what a written one would be when when you're at the end of the line. How does that conversation change from the original verbal warning? It doesn't change a whole lot. I think that by the time you get to that conversation, because you've had a verbal, because you've had a written, because you've had a final written, you're sitting in that last meeting and they know exactly what's coming. They knew the the they knew that what they needed to do for the period of time. They knew what that period of time was. And so they know that they know what this next meeting is about. And so by the time you come there, It's really kind of a a recap, right? Hey, these are the things we've done. This is the process I've been through. This is what was expected and you weren't able to get there. and so this is gonna be your last day. And then here's the here's the stuff that goes forward. That's when you kind of just you you you sever it. And what is it just you and them or do you have like HR in there? Do you have Yeah, you always wanna have at least one other person in the room with you. Okay. Yeah. Typically on all of these you want to have one other. And then I would always tell people to even on your verbals, send an email confirming what you had the verbal about. Because documentation is really, really key. It's one thing that they drill and you incorporate, but that you as a small business owner, from a legal liability perspective, from a stewardship perspective, documenting every single portion of it along the way is It's really important. So let's just say you're like, hey, we're it's a verbal and you have it over the phone or over Zoom or whatever. Obviously you've got AI to use notes, but I would then send a recap email to the employee, Joe employee, this is recapping ver the verbal warning we had today. Here are the expectations. Ba, bah, bah, bah, bah. So don't don't miss the documentation. It's probably one of the most important aspects of it. Got it. you you mentioned something with like the legal side of it. And Coming from the corporate training and for me, like as a small business owner, I don't I could imagine where the legal pitfalls are going to be. Yeah. But I'm sure that you will know better than I. And I'm sure that you're going to start the sentence with it depends. I'm not a lawyer, but it depends. But I am curious, like what I need to look out for, what things to completely avoid, anything like that. At the end of the day, what protects you the most is that you have a consistent process that everyone is held accountable to. So consistency is really important and that there are clear expectations for what the what success and expectations in the job are, and then clear documentation of those not being done. A lot of times when people document write ups or like stuff that happens with people, they put things that are irrelevant or that aren't first principles truth. So like, and then you said this in this way, and it's like, no, we're just gonna stick to the facts here. And that's what's really important. in corporate, you know, there's some really simple things that people don't think of. Sometimes they overdo it. It's like if someone's expected to be at work on time and they're always late, and you tell me that you haven't terminated them yet, then like that that's a really it's a really interesting one because it's the easiest thing to terminate somebody for. It is the most black and white. You were set, you were supposed to arrive at noon, you arrived at 1203, and then on this date you arrived at 1208, and then on this date you arrived at that shouldn't even be a question. and so you need the same kind of objective measures when you're building accountability for team members. There's, of course, the whole legal side of being an at-will employer. So a lot of states are at-will employees, which means, you know, fire at any time at will. That doesn't mean that you can fire people for any reason without documentation. It doesn't mean it's smart to do that. So documenting the process along the way is it's just basic care one one. but legally, you know, you want to have employee employer insurance in place. If you don't have it, you can you can get employer insurance. So that if somebody does sue you, it your your company's protected. if there's one thing that's for certain, as your business grows, you will be sued. So if you haven't been sued yet, it's just you you haven't you haven't gotten big enough yet. You haven't been around long enough yet. you're gonna get a wrongful termination suit. It's kind of how goes. so the best thing to do on on protections is create consistency around around the board. Yeah. What do you what are you typically praying before you go into those situations? Every time that that God would allow me to demonstrate his gentleness and love and care, that the truth would be said in love and that in whatever mysterious way he has planned that he would be glorified through it. Yeah. Man, I I love that. I think especially just like the gentleness, love, you know, just going going into the fruits of the spirit and that. It's hard, man. It's hard. When you're when you're in there, you know, you get people get nervous and they get squirrely and no one wants to do it. I mean, just think about like people get butterflies and I don't care what level you're at. Having a hard conversation with somebody is always hard. And I think some people think if somebody's more experienced in it or maybe they're a certain personality that it's easier, like, they like confrontation. No one likes confrontation. Yeah. and I think yeah, it's it it's a great thing to be praying before that, before those kinds of meetings for clarity. Yeah, man. You know, something I I was just kind of thinking about is like there's so many ways that you and I have talked about, and I know other people have either like DM'd you or sent you comments of where how do you go above and beyond in these situations? How can you bless someone? How can you still love someone? Right. And there's almost part of me that wants to just create like a database of like, hey, these are all of the ideas that other biblical business owners Yeah, I like that. what they do when biblical business blessings on your way out or what? Yeah. I was even thinking about it like for like, okay, on like when someone comes in, you know, how do you do it? When someone goes out, when someone experiences whatever. You know, I love the idea of like, okay, sure. The you talked about four hundred one K, you talked about like a full insurance for the for you, the family, for like all the kids, all that. I was even thinking back to like I I had to let someone go late last year. And it was when during our coaching relationship. Yeah. And I remember you told me it's like, how can you still bless them in this situation? And it what where I went, man, you're so right. It just it sucks every single time. And for me, it wasn't a issue on their end. I hired the wrong role at the wrong time. There you go. And I I needed to hire operations and I hired for growth. And so then it was like we couldn't even like keep up with and think about growth because we were just trying to work on fulfillment. And so that was like a complete mistake on my end. And And as much as that's your mistake, unfortunately that means that your debts will be paid by other people sometimes. That's the that's the cost of being a leader. Yes. And it's the worst. It's the worst. It's the worst. It's the worst. So how so how did you bless them on the way out? So it was I I remember like you and I talked about it and just kicked it around. And it was You know, essentially we, you know, paid out the rest of their contract plus through the rest of the year. And it was like Christmas. And what you know, like what's what's standard here? And it's like no, we're not gonna ask those questions. We're just gonna say, like, dude, this is the time think about the time of year. But even if it's not the time of year, like that time of year is all all the time. Yes. Yes. And I dude, what I think so much of it was I was still playing by like the business game, right? Yes. With a different scoreboard and not thinking of like, hey, what do I need to do? What does a book say? What are the best practices? Like, what's like the bare minimum? Because I wasn't thinking about blessing. My heart wasn't in blessing. My heart was in mind. they're a home builder and they asked, you know, they want to get my thoughts on this. They've got These two different paths they're thinking about taking. And and I'm like, well, and they're talking about this one that they're on, but it doesn't make a bunch of money, but they've just blessed people in such amazing ways when they build these homes. And they don't make a lot of money on the homes, but they deliver the most amazing experience. And it's like high level finishes. And when somebody asks for a really expensive fridge, they can give it to them. And and they're like, but you know. I I know that we need to like I just need to know which path I need to take. And I'm like, well, who told you it was a an either or equation? I said, Did you just watch a video from, you know, somebody on the internet telling you that, you know, it did when you do too many things, you you don't do anything well and you need to just focus on one and that's the way. And he's like, Wait, that's crazy. That's a that's exact we saw that video yesterday. And I'm like, show me where it says that in the Bible. Yeah. Show me where it says that in Bible. You're running a business over here that is tremendously blessing people. And i if you d if your definition of success is making the most money possible, well then yeah, go make all these decisions you're talking about. So same idea. You're you're gonna terminate somebody if your if your definition of successfully running this business is getting as much money out of it as possible, then yeah, you definitely wouldn't want to have paid him out for his contract. No, absolutely not. Just pay him the bare minimum, maybe give him a little extra juice and then send him on his way because you know you You checked the box. But no, that's not how God calls us to lead. No, dude. And I think too, it's like you yeah, I feel I you feel that weight. And so I was like, I know that you left this full-time job to come work full time for me. And now I'm letting you go. And like your world is like you're freaking out. And I can't blame you at all. So the other thing I was trying to think of is like, hey, if you tell me the direction of like where you think you want to head, I want to try to help you get that next job too. And so like he, you know, I think he was like, maybe this, maybe this, and like didn't give me a ton, but I just like literally tapped him into my network and was like, Hey, I hired this great guy. Like I I hired him at the wrong time, but he's perfect for somebody else. We just couldn't focus on growth enough to justify it. Like this was what we were paying him. Is anyone interested? And dude, I mean, 10 people were like, What's his email? And like, just like He had an inbox full of of options after that. And I was I was happy about that because it's like at least it didn't work out. Yeah. But I was help able to help him move on to the next thing. What you did was you owned right. Because at the end of the day, that feeling that you had of like, man, this sucks because I brought him on. That's you and the cost of you making bad strategic leadership decisions, right? Like that was the cost. So you going out and doing those things. is a part of, you know, one, like truly trying to help this person. but I think part of the thing we can always ask is how can we make this an uneven exchange of value for them to be on the the winning side of it? You know, and I and I love that way of thinking. it and so I I think a lot of times we're applying the world's business wisdom and we're like, well, you know, it it can only be this way if somebody loses something essentially. And that is that scarcity mindset. And that is that there's not enough to go around mindset. And that is the I guess God doesn't provide it's up to me mindset. So yeah, man, I I just l I love that. And I think then selfishly you actually get rewarded because how do you feel about that? From a leadership perspective. Yeah, way better. And I feel like I know that I've emailed him a couple of times after and just checking in. Like I don't need anything, but I just want to make sure he's landed on his feet or I saw something, you know, I was like, hey, this made me think of this conversation about whatever. Hope you're doing okay. And you know, knowing it's like as once we fix the operation side of it and we can focus on growth again, you know, it could just be worth a check-in and just be like, how's it going? You liking it? And You know, we have this role and maybe it like turns into something whenever we're ready for that. and or maybe or maybe it doesn't, and maybe you're just a part of his story to go do something that he really wants to do. And no matter what, the the goal, right? It's it's that hot dog stand effect. The idea is that yeah, you want people to follow you, but you also want to help them follow their passions. Your your goal is for is to love them, not to love them so that they can love you. Yes, yes. And so I think the hot dog stand effect and also the brand moat were two like really interesting pieces of this from a hiring standpoint. Because like I I was thinking in particular the brand moat. I know recently you you had a video that I don't know how many views it got. I don't know how many likes it got, but we we were for sure in the six figures where you were hiring for a growth marketing specialist. yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Dude, I mean that thing yeah, it did all right. That's a that's a way to put it. And how many it got like five. How many applicants? Five over five thousand. I actually still I still get I'm still getting applications on that. Even though I pinned a comment, like it yeah, it doesn't matter. I'm still getting a bunch of applications on that. And dude, I think one of my favorite things about it is so often we don't think about we don't think about hiring is In the same way we do marketing, but there's a lot of similarities. And in the sense of like marketing, what you're trying to do is ultimately get your word out. And so you have customers come to you and and becomes magnetic, but in a super similar way for hiring. Here you go. Here you go. How many? Yeah, 5004,000 views. Yeah. With 3,620 hours of watch time. Yeah, with 2,700 comments, almost 7,000 sends. And that's just on TikTok. So And that's just organic. No pay t yeah yeah yeah. No, I don't pay, I it actually paid me. I don't know if you saw it. I think it paid me like three three hundred bucks. So we have to use that toward the toward the the ad spin for whatever the next position is. Yeah. So I I think I think you've done a really great job from a brand mode perspective of thinking of it like marketing, right? To where customers instead of marketing, customers come to you and you attract them. The other side, you attract some of the best employees to come and want to work for you as well. Always. Yep. And so I want to kind of understand from the perspective of like five thousand people coming in. one, that's a ton. right. It's like you have options on options. Like what was kind of your thought process as you're observing this from the results of your brand mode that you've built. Well, you know that I had no expectation that about that many people would respond. I just thought I mean, I made the video walking through my my garage. I was just like, I sh I should make this video because we're looking to get somebody and I'll and I'll share it. And as it started at started people started pouring in, I was like, Man, this is really cool because the whole hook, if you will, was what if I told you you could work somewhere that, you know, was unapologetic unapologetically for Jesus, gave fifty one percent of its net income to advance the gospel, you know, four day work week. 100% benefits for you and your family like it was basically selling Sherman Research. and all of these people, there I can't tell you, you gotta think, like at 5,000 people, there's all walks of life. And people in different seasons, people who are like, Hey, I have nothing to do with this position you want, but I want to come work for this company. and I think when I my thought was It's really cool to see God work. Yeah. Because it had nothing to do with me. It had nothing to do with my plan. It had nothing to do with some str strategy outside of let me share, use this medium and see what God does. And so I think, you know, I could make a hundred other videos and nothing would happen. But in God's provision, it Had a bunch of people who responded. And I think from that, it just told me, and my hope was that it proved to a bunch of people also that you can lead a business for Jesus from the front door and people will really want to work with you. Yeah. And I think that a lot of people think the opposite. And so they bury it. And they bury it. And then they wonder why they get people coming in who don't align with what they want for the business. So but to your question on the brand, a brand mode is really that's nothing but a reputation. And the reason social media is so interesting is because it's it's a place where people get to see how you think. And then after they see how you think, they can decide, yeah, I think similarly. Or I like the way that person thinks, and I I want to associate with that because I think similarly. That's all that branding is. That's why Apple does what it does. That's why Yeti does what it does. You want to associate yourself with the way they think. And that's what they're presenting to you. So yeah, I I think hiring, getting clients, all of it is so brand and reputation based. over the past year that you spent building out a social media presence and opening that door, what are some of the things that you've learned about brand? Wow. I think the biggest thing that I've learned is that done is better than perfect. And that adding value for other people never goes out of style. What's some advice that you would have given yourself a year ago when you first go sooner. Go sooner, do more. Because I I decided, for example, like months and months in that I would start based on the feedback loop that I would start doing more and more content. Yeah. And and so then I ended up, you know, getting up to you know, three, seven, sometimes even more than seven posts a day. And through that process, a lot of refinement happens on your messaging. But also people get to hear a lot more about how you think. And so your your moat is dug deeper with every post you make. Yeah. Do you think it's like a muscle? Like, do you think it is like it's easier to do to make content now than it was even six months ago? Yeah, I think it's really difficult to make inauthentic content. And it's really easy to make authentic content. If you are attempting to put on, then content is exhausting. If you are simply attempting to share your authentic self, then content is easy. Now I'm not saying all content is the same. I'm saying kind of the let's call it the yapping style content, right? Something where you're just sharing. You know, the stuff that I do around biblical business where I work through like Teaching something from the Bible about business or trying to extract something to see what God's teaching, that takes more time. But that's such, I mean, for me, I'm like perfect. I've built an engine where I'm constantly spending time in the word even more than I would outside of my own time. And that's never going to return void. So I think, I think people struggle with making content for a bunch of reasons, most of which just has to do with them not doing it. And they had all the stuff that they tell themselves that they don't actually know in first principles. Ooh. what are some things that you learned about yourself? making three to seven videos a day for over a year? I don't like the sound of my voice. I man, I think that I'm a I'm a hyper introvert and I learned that it was a medium Where I could share things that I otherwise didn't externally because I didn't go to, you know, I'm not like a networking event and but get out and and be around and do a bunch of things. That's not me. I'm not a busybody in that way. Not that that's a bad thing. genuinely. I I think it's an amazing skill, but I it's not my natural path. So a lot of it also f allowed me, but also forced me to share more of my thinking. Because of the simple commitment to volume and cadence, which was a as much a gift for me as it was for anybody who might have benefited from hearing some of it. Did how did your communication style change? I think in the beginning it was I I I attempted to be authentic and clearly communicate, but if I go back and look. I knew when I started that my first video would be my worst video. Right. In that sense. So I would say my communication style has just become more authentic. It sounds more like me. And I also would say that It's not really about having one style either. Right. Meaning my style is that I want to reach people with valuable information f for Jesus. So if there's a way that I can do that more effectively to reach more people, then I'm gonna try those things, obviously within within guidelines. Yeah. Yeah. Man, I felt like 'cause I remember During our coaching sessions, you challenged me for like two weeks to post seven times a day. yeah, I remember. And I was like, I don't think I realized how bad at communication I was. And maybe like my version of bad was like still like a seven. It wasn't what you liked. It wasn't what I liked. And I think the opportunity to learn how to refine that, learn how to make improvements, what to adjust was really was really great. And it the biggest challenge for me was just coming up with ideas. Right. Right. And so then did you how did you find yourself coming up with ideas? I think at a certain point I just looked on my shelf and was going back to some of the books I'd read and what were some interesting concepts in it? And so I think Naval's Almanaca Naval when he talks about the different types of luck. I thought that was a really interesting Case study. And so talking about that, the why CEOs are paid so much. I think was another really interesting take of his that I thoroughly enjoyed. and then I know because I know you have a little note card where you just write your ideas down as you go throughout the day from meetings, from yeah, just thoughts and observations. And I realized that's a muscle as well. Of not just making the video but coming up with the ideas and then focusing on the hooks after that. You gotta be it's it's like the last episode we talked about it. You gotta be Seinfeld, right? Like you're you're building material all the time. A lot of times though, for me, it's like, what am I thinking about right now? What am I dealing with right now? What am I struggling with right now? What do I feel good about right now? And those a lot of times are great places to start because it's really easy, right? To talk about stuff that you're excited about. I think the other thing is that people think they need to present a certain brand, if you will, when you just need to be you. So, you know, like I talk about watches and I've not as much. I probably should do more now that I think about it. Like I watch a lot of UFC. you know, I talk about whatever things that I care at homeschool. And people might go, Well, no, that has nothing to do with it. No, but it's authentic. And the point is, it's so weird that people think that you shouldn't do that. Because what you'll find is that when people find out more about those other things that you like, your reputation, your trust, your relationship is built deeper. And they're like, Mm, because people do their own math, right? well, if he likes this and likes that and he does this and he does that, then that might mean we're aligned in this way. Yeah. And so you end up actually earning more business, right? Because people understand who you are more genuinely versus just being like some talking head who's constantly selling their things. Right. Yeah, man. I think it's even really interesting, like double clicking into our relationship because where we started was the coaching relationship. And now yes, it's the podcast, but then also I'm the head of research or head of head of ops at Sherman. And and that was so coincidental, and genuinely neither of us could have seen that one coming. No, definitely not. Exactly. And so I I mean to to kind of articulate the story and transition into like the hiring side of things, I think that something I learned from our experience was God works in a re just fascinating ways that we could have never orchestrated ourselves, that we could never, never have envisioned, that we could never have. She even dreamed of. Yeah. And because where we started was around this time last year, coaching quite my company. Yeah. And for us, we had for two years in a row almost tripled in size. And and I get to a point where I'm basically almost burnt out, which is why we're having a coaching session. But it also led me to taking a sabbatical 40 days off to where it was like not no phone, no computer, no work at all. My team just had to run everything. And I come back from those 40 days, and in the sales pipeline was basically more than what we did last year. So I was like, God blessed my faithfulness, like a yes and amen. Right. Yeah. And and I was so grateful for it, so excited for it. And then just along the way, those opportunities just kind of, you know, fizzle out. And you know, you work hard to revive it. You you go through the whole sales process, you know just keep bugging them after a while. And man, it was one of those things. I was grateful for our coaching because I had like the seven months just like saved up. We're good. Like we could we could just float. And like I'm not having to worry about it. And and so then probably you know, January, we pick up back our sessions. I'm like, dude, I'm good. We don't we don't even need coaching sessions anymore. And then come like March, I'm like, hey, do you have any like ideas for like marketing? And you know, how should I think about this right now? And which was which led to the conversations of yeah, post seven times a day for two weeks. Best of luck. and then on top of that, literally, man, April comes around. And you just start asking me some really good questions about like what I love about the business, you know, then you know, where I am in the season. and then you start grilling me on my numbers. Like I remember like you were grilling me hard and I was like, I I got in yeah. I mean, okay. You're you're fast, like you're quick and you could do really good mental math. And yeah, yeah. The mental math thing. Yeah. Yeah. And And so when you're asking me this, I'm like just praying that I'm keeping up and I can float all this. And and then you've had the idea of like, well, what if you were to come work for me? And I genuinely I don't know if I said this to you or not. I said if if it were anybody else, it would be a zero percent chance. And because it's you, I will give you a five percent chance. Sure. I don't remember if it was five, but I remember that I remember that transition of the conversation. It was it was like it was and I said I had I had no idea. I I i it no I won't even tell you the the story that was happening on the other side of it on how I got to that place. But there was so many things that had happened that was just like God clearly moving. Yeah. And I had worked I have worked over the last several years to try to be to quiet things down and to be more attentive to when I feel like it God is that you talking. Is that you moving? Because it's clearly out of nowhere. Yeah. And and I did and I wasn't planning for it. I can't take credit for it. And so I had no plan going into that call with you to talk to you about it. Zero. No. And it blindsided me. Yeah. Blindsided both of us. Yeah. and so yeah, it was just a f it was a fascinating that was a fascinating meeting. Mm-hmm. because both of us were like talking about stuff that we and we didn't know why we were talking about it. No, no. And dude, I mean, for months I Know I was praying, it's like Lord, I pray that you open some doors, you know, for some projects for some clients, right? And like that's what I'm praying. And he's like, and you're like, right, well, that's not it. Well, I said a different door. Not that one, for sure. Not. And then, dude, I think my my my wife, like, just I remember her being like sitting at a grocery store parking lot one day and be like, my claims, like, you know, he's he's okay. He's I could tell he's stressed about it. And so she starts praying about it. And dude, like. 24 hours later, like it it became our conversation. And yeah, but it was even crazy. Yeah, but it was even crazier than that, right? Because, because drink draw this back to content and and it's context sport. I had been asked by this family office to come speak in Scotland out of nowhere. Because literally, literally, I was like, Okay, well, hey, you you said we'll talk on the next call, like two weeks from now. And because I'll be out of town whenever. And I was like, where are you going? And you were like or because I never remember anything. Yeah. I didn't r I f I didn't know where you lived. I just for I wasn't thinking about it, even though I'd been coaching you for however long. yeah. I just it i it was like God blocked that out of my mind. So when when you said when I said we'll talk later, I was like, Yeah, yeah, because I'm gonna be out of town. And I had I had been asked by this family office to come to a a castle in Scotland to to do a speaking engagement out of nowhere that I and and the only reason he wanted me to come was because he wanted me to talk about Jesus and business. Because I was an operator. And and then, by the way, you don't you still also don't know this. I almost didn't make this the trip that we're that I'm about to talk about, because they had said, Well, before you come out, we'd love for you to come out to Florida. We want you to come with your whole family. Cause I said, Well, I don't want to come out to Florida beforehand. Yeah, we just want to meet with you. And they Well, bring your whole family, we'll go to Disney World, we'll play four season. I was like, No, my our girls, I talked to Jen, like the girls have soccer. Like, no. And then I thought, just randomly. Because they said they were gonna have a personal chef. I went, my my youngest, my son, he loves to cook. And he loves like great food. He's got an amazing palate. He's got his mom's nose, his mom's taste buds. Like he's just he's got it. And I was like, Maybe it'll just be he and I. And so then I floated that to them. I'm like, Well, I I'll come, but basically fly my me and my son. And then they're like, Not only do we want to do that, we'll have him come. the personal chef from Italy will show him how to make pasta. While we meet, he can go do that in the same house. And anyway, it was all this stuff. Yeah. Which then I was like, okay, fine, yeah, we'll do it. So Zeke and I ended up going, but all of that was like almost didn't happen. Right? And all was happenstance out of nowhere. I didn't ask for that. I didn't say, hey everybody, I'm doing speaking engagements. Who wants to book me? Mentioned it once. Yes. So then when you say, I say we'll talk later, I'll be out of town. Yeah. I was like, where are you going? And you're like, Orlando. And was like, well, like, let me know if you need recommendations or like if you got time. And you're like, yeah, you live there. And so not only wait, but then not only do I live do you live there? Yeah. But you're like, Where are you staying? where yeah, where are you staying? Right. And if the four seasons Orlando, we're like fifteen minutes away from like the four seasons. Four seasons Orlando, like I go there, I don't know, once a month to just go do work because it's a beautiful place to be. And and so it's like, like let me know. And man, like fast forward, like two, like I fast forward to that next week. There's been conversations all along this way. Well, hold on, hold on. Okay. All right. Wait, you're talking about at the hotel or after the hotel? I'm talking like the transition into it. Like I tell my wife this, and then she tells me it's like, like I literally, like just like was praying about this. And to me, I go to like the power of like a praying wife in those scenarios is like something that I could like I did not appreciate early enough in my marriage. And now if I am making any sort of like important decision, it she's a hundred percent involved and so many times she's had a just a bad feeling, like and she couldn't articulate it. There's not a rhyme or reason behind it, but just a gut reaction to something. Dude, and I if I had listened to her every single time, I would be way better off. Like I would not have gotten into those sorts of deals. I would not have wasted all that time. I would have not spent all that money. And like just that discernment is something that cannot be appreciated enough. So I tell her that. And it was like, my goodness. And the thing that rocked my world from our conversation was you told me there's easier ways to make more money. And I I did not believe you. Because I was right. And I it's a common theme of our relationship, McLean. right. No, it takes me a minute. It takes me a minute to get there. Not that I'm always right, but that you do that you don't believe me. You know what I It takes you takes you a minute. And then I buy it. I get it eventually. I don't buy it at first. And I think to me it was like my maybe it's like a the community I'm in, like I recognize I'm younger entrepreneur. And so there's not necessarily people who who are playing the same game. And so it's like it's hard to like for for my age, I'm like, okay, I'm doing all right. And so for you to be like, no, no, no, no, no, like you're you're you're still in like high school football, and like I want to at least show you college football and like and beyond that. So literally we text, we figure it out, you're the four seasons, I roll up. And I just by way, it was also it was also like a whirlwind because we ended up because I told him, Well, if I'm gonna come at all, it'd be that I also want Zeke and I to go we want to go to the Kennedy Space Center. Right. You know, we want to go check all that out. It all I'm telling you, it all just happened to work out to the where we could meet in that lobby that evening. And I I did not communicate this part of it to you either. I had woken up at four that morning to go take a train down to Miami. To shoot a commercial, take a train back. I am literally on a walk when you text me like you had just finished up with dinner, if like I if I was still around. And so I look at my wife and I was like, I think like, do I need to shave? And so I go take a shower so I don't just like reek and come in. Right. And it's for entrepreneurs, it's like the eighteen hour days that are just become like. it you don't think about it. It's not it doesn't become like I'm bragging about this. It's just like it's part of it. S somebody I don't know who, but somebody recently was like, How many hours a week do you work? I honestly have no idea. Yeah. I I I I've I've I don't remember any time since I don't know that maybe I was twenty five that I've counted the number of hours that I've worked. but I think it fluctuates too. Of course. It's it's all asymmetry. But I think you making that decision though was not just you making that decision because it was every it was the butterfly effect, right? Which is there is no butterfly effect. It was God's sovereign will that all of these things would be done. And of course, yes, we need to take steps of obedience forward. And every time I do that, or like like I say what I said to you on the call or you take you say, Yeah, I'm gonna come meet, I always, you know, I I can't help but think, Well what if I didn't? Mm. Yeah, man. You know, totally. What if I didn't? What would what would God? And I know God would do something else, but it's it's that the power of I I think for me, it's the power of finding a way to say yes. So one listening to God's still voice, reading his word, like quieting your mind. And then I've wanted to find more ways because I've always been a no person. I'm like the abominable no man. To to say yes. Yeah. and say, Yeah. Yeah, okay. Yeah, well let's try that. Or hey, there's something there. Like I feel this this little compelling thing to say something about this. Let's let's say it. Yes. And and then you s go, Whoa, God. The you you basically pull the sail up on your boat and then the wind just hits. Yeah. Yes, dude. Yeah. A hundred percent. And and I think about it like when we sat down at the four seasons just start talking. In my mind, I was I valued our coaching relationship so much. My big fear was like, I don't want like, let's say I take this role and it I'm not the right fit. Now I like gear shift out of it. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Did I like did I not just like learn lose this opportunity but also lose the relationship? Right. And so I remember it was like all these things of like, hey. If there's any pitfall that we're gonna have, this is I'm gonna lay them all out and we can talk about it. Yep. And you know, I love I love this one. I love asking this question of let's fast forward a year from now. And like what you you and I are sitting around at campfire singing kumbaya and everything has gone gone exactly the way we want it to. Like what is the what does the world look like? Yeah, what does the world look like? What has gone right? Yeah. And man, when when I ask that question typically, right, it is we hit these KPIs, we accomplish these goals, and you just get quiet for a minute. And you said, Man I just want you to love people. And I thought to myself, like I would be a complete idiot to not take this job. That was it? That was the that was the deal seal right there. Well, I think that the the that was the first thing that like set the domino effect. And then the second was you actually gave like gave me the offer. And what your offer was was exactly what I'd been making after my I just finished my best year. with my company. And it was like, dude, that was so generous. Like you did not have to do that. And I also don't have to close down my shop. Right. I could keep doing what I'm doing. I want you to. I like entrepreneurs. Yes. And like I was like, I I would just be a fool to say no to this. And I think it really became I told I think I told you this at the time. What excited me the most about it. Was it felt like an opportunity for me to go get my master's in biblical business? And not I like, I don't know if I needed the master's in business. I don't think I maybe I could read a PL a little bit better. I listen, I'm the guy who got an F minus in high school. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not the one to tell you. You know what I mean? But I was like, the to me, it the obvious thing was like, how could I learn the things that no one else is talking about? I can't learn. How to run a biblically based business by going anywhere else except learning under someone who's already running a biblical based business. Yeah, I think what was cool too is like, and and I mean, I I think what's amazing for this podcast, honestly, for really just anything is something I didn't think about at the time, but that I've thought about since, maybe recently, which is like, dude, it's also great accountability for me. On like, am I the real, am I really leading a biblical business? Yeah. So like I and that that I I think I thought more about that when when we had the the in-person biblical business conversations event in Court Alane. Yeah. And I had different people who were like talking to my wife, talking to my, you know, assistant, talking to Wendy, talking, talking to leaders. Yeah. And they're all wondering, right? Like, well, okay, like Are you the real deal? Yeah, yeah. Give me the give me the scoop. And Obviously, like, you know, there's plenty of things, all kinds of things that I'm not doing well, that I'm working at every day. But I think it's I love that. Yeah, like you're in the business coming from the where we came from coaching, through with your desire on what you want, to then go, Okay, you also know what it means as we do this to lead a biblical business. And so you can make sure that Like, hey, we're gonna push that as well, which for me, that's the win. That's why we didn't even talk about this, but like that's why it didn't matter that you didn't have any experience in investment advisory and management and research, like tactical model portfolios and momentum strategies. And now you run the research department of a firm that, you know, influences billions and billions of dollars. Wow. And that's, you know, I I really I I'm pretty sure it's a wooden quote, right? But like Your attitude, not your aptitude, determine your altitude. Yes. And I think I wouldn't even, yes, attitude, but for me, it's like, what do you believe about this life? What do you believe this business exists for? And that's going to then inform. And when you come in, and I know that you see this as stewardship and you want to lead from stewardship. And I got to see how you led your business in a coaching relationship, it was like, Basically, without even knowing it, without planning it, I was I was able to interview you and see how you ran a business for all that time. So it was just again, only God could plan stuff like that. And that's the kind of stuff that is such a gift to see when you are leading a business from a place of, this is God's, this is not ours. So let's just watch him watch him cook. You know what I mean? Dude, and I think that's why I wanted to bring up that story because it's almost complete opposite directions, right? To where in one sense you post a social media video and get 5,000 applicants. In another, you this dude who you were coaching for nine months, you know, is going through a challenging season. And you're like, wait a second, he would be a great fit over here. Would he even be interested? And and now like we're sitting here, you know, in like talking with one another in a podcast format. Like that's crazy story that we could have never stitched together, that we could never orchestrated, that a year ago we could never have been like, you know what we'll be cool. It it was just not even on the radar, not even the picture. And I think it's just which is exactly right. Like that is the God, you know, we serve a God who is able to do far more abundantly than anything we ask or think. And I think it's like we can think about whatever we want. We can dream about whatever we think it's gonna be a year from now. But It's gonna be so much cooler just to see what God does. Yes, exactly, man. And so one of the things I really wanted to hear, we touched on just a hair, but you said at one point, like you wouldn't hire top level people without your wife's buy-in. And so I I would love to hear maybe some things that she has caught that maybe you missed along the way. You know, it's interesting. I think this is one that I've learned over time. and I've only learned in the last few years. Again, I think really just God's gift as I've moved toward this idea of leading a biblical business. and a lot of the things that she catches are my typically my posture where I'm at, right? Because if haste leads to poverty, then when I'm in a situation, she knows. If I've been under a certain kind of pressure, she knows in ways that nobody else knows. So then if she sees me making a decision, like she's said to me before, like this kind of isn't you. You know, like you need to slow down. Yeah. Because you're not, you're not somebody who moves like that. And so it's it's not like you to move like that. Slow down. And she's also, and and that has, I mean Even when she has told me other things where maybe I've hired or worked with somebody or partnered with somebody and she was like, Yeah, okay. But she then picked stuff up along the way. It's always been right. Every single time. and so it's like, okay, now that I know that, thank you, God, for giving me 15 lessons of, you know, punches to the gut on this of how d dumb I've been. Now I'm like, okay, cool. Like essentially Vibe it needs to vibe check with Jen. and if she's like, mm, you know, if she doesn't have a feeling about it, if she does, then it's like I'm my ears are tuned. Yeah. And I think it's not really about like, let me put somebody through an interview. let me have the it's more like just the general vibe because she'll ask me about them, I'll tell her about them, how we met, where we're what we're talking about, what their experience is. And then, you know, if she meets them in person or even like hears a little bit more about them, she just has that discernment. She has that discernment to go, you know, I don't know. I don't know. This doesn't this doesn't feel right. And I've I've not listened to her. and it's never gone it's never gone well. She is definitely on that stuff, she is Novakane. You know what I mean? It'll work. Just give it time. Yeah, man. Yeah. She can be right. Yeah. I think the other thing that you you taught me, and I I think I touched on this at some other point, was I I would phrase it like the different types of hard, right? To where it's like a hard, like a workout versus hard like, hey, I'm working out, but my back's hurting or my knees hurting. And it's like a pain. And I think something that I really, really appreciated was that process. In retrospect, that process of, hey, what if you came work for me to I'm now going to join this team was so easy. And that was in the thick of a year, or I get that at that point, like five months of like, man, Chalant, my business is really hard. Like, and it's I feel like I'm doing all the things, but it it just feels like something's not right. And then I even look at this podcast of like. Dude, this is way too easy. Like I and I say that like I I mean, genuinely, episode one, right after that, a sp a sponsor, potential sponsor reaches out to sponsor that podcast. Not even before episode two comes out. We've recorded it, not not posted it. We have an an incredible editor step in. Yeah and it's like, dude, we've been doing this for not long at all. I mean not long at all. You mean like a week? Two weeks. And it's like the the green light. It's just like, my goodness, this is so easy. And I think it became this recognition of like, if things are like unusually hard, just like step back. And that doesn't mean just ask the question. Listen, and that and that I mean it's a story for another time, but that goes into the person who I actually hired in haste that didn't work out by God's provision. That they pulled themselves out, it would have been a terrible hire that led to me being able to then hire the two people that I eventually hired. Yeah, man. And it was like purely God's grace to give me another shot at not making a bad decision. Yeah. and so I think, and it was unusually hard to to get this person in. Yeah. And it was like, hmm, you know, and I wasn't listening. I'm just like unusually hard. Then I go unusually hard. Yeah. Yes. And when it's unusually hard, I'm going, you know, and and no one's gonna stop me. Yeah. And the thing that you taught me is introducing God's timing into my business is so backward from how I would typically approach running a business. Because I'd be like, this is the timeline. We're gonna go like do this in Q1, night this in Q2. This is like the entire operation of like how this is going to happen. And you showing me it's like, wait, if something is unusually hard, observe that and give it some space. Give it some space. Just ask question. Yeah. Just ask a question. Ask your wife. Ask yourself. Like find out is there is is is hey God, is that you? Yeah. Yes. Like and he might be trying to point you to something. And it's the vice versa. Like when things become super easy. Yes. Like it's crazy just to see the Lord bless and let this go. And I want to force it, I want to control it. Of course. Yeah, let me make it better. God, I can do this better than you. Let me handle it. Right. And I think I think the question to ask when it's going really easy is Is this an easy path to what? My glory? My riches? My honor? Or is this an easy path to his glory? Yeah. Because that answer will tell you if it's the right kind of easy. Yeah. Because it could be easy if somebody came to you, you know, and and had a, you know, hundred million dollar check and said, hey, I'm gonna fund this whole thing for you going forward. Like that would feel easy, right? But it may not be. It may be the hardest thing ever because of where it's coming from. So I think it's a good thing to simply Pause no matter what and ask the question each day, like, hey God, what are you doing? And is how is what we're doing right now glorifying you more? Is that the road we're on? Because that's the road we need to be on. If my as God getting glory and my business growing should grow, should be perfectly symmetric. If if my business is growing and God's not getting more glory along the way in the same At least the same? Yes. Yeah. Totally. Yeah, bro. More stuff, more things, more money, more recognition, more people know my name. Yeah. no. No. That's a that's a that's an easy answer to the question, too. So yeah, I think whether it's easy or hard, you want to ask that qu you want to pause and just see where God's at. Yeah, man. I think too the idea of and how me how me workshop this because this is an idea I had over the weekend. I feel like the idea of a business versus biblical business is like similar to like tennis versus pickleball. It's like a lot of like the rules in the game are really similar, but like they're also fundamentally different. And so it's like there's best practices that you could probably use in both. And like if you step into one, it's probably transferable to the other, but it ultimately is like a different game with a different score or scoreboard. Yeah, I think. It it's like the difference between a good book and the Bible. One one has the question is always it's like when somebody t says something bad about you. Uh-huh. You know, the great thing to always think about if somebody, you know, no matter what, if somebody gives you a compliment or if somebody tears you down, yeah, is consider the source. Where did it come from? Who told you that? sure. The difference between A business and a biblical business is that one has a single source of truth and the other is floating in the ether of the world's desires. It's the same thing between a good marriage and a biblical marriage. It is what is your source of truth? What is your what is your you know, where is your SOP? Who who wrote your SOPs? sure. Right. Because the SOPs are just like the things to do, but who wrote them is is the important part. Totally, man. Because you can have a you can have a good marriage if you are the one who makes the definitions. Yeah, man. You can have a good business if you're the one who makes the definition. Yeah. So who who defines the terms here? So, you know, I think the pickleball tennis analogy works. I don't know which one should be which, but I'm gonna go with the purist. We'll just say that God's the source of tennis. Yeah. Yeah. And if that's the case, then yeah, we want to play we want to play that game. Yeah. Yeah, man. so as we're kind of like wrapping up, I I want to touch hiring, firing. Essentially a few of the takeaways that I'm having is how do you leave leave each of these with love? How do you work in God's timing and not yours? And give space and being prayerful and acknowledge when there's resistance and just ask ask the questions. And notice when things are particularly easy and also look to him and be like, God, is it does this are you bringing this? and is is there any others that you really want to call out? No, I think I think you that's exactly right. I I think when you're looking at firing people, it's like understanding where to balance grace with stewardship and where those two things meet. And I think on the hiring side, it's where to balance the grind with stewardship. Right. Like I'm going to grind this thing into getting the right people versus what is stewardship? What does God want for me? So both of them, the other side of it is to pause and say, like, what is God doing? What does God want here? versus what do I want? What's my timing? What's my urgency? And it's the same thing on the the you know, firing side. It's like there's there's grace. We know God wants us to love people. We also are to hold people accountable to To do to steward the business that is his well. and not just for their sake, but for everybody's sake. So I think, yeah, it all of this always comes back to stewardship. It is understanding that a biblical business means it's not yours. Yeah. And when you understand that, it will change the way you lead that business forever. Man, I love that. Always thankful for our time, man. Thank thank you for this.