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The Choice Before Us: Deciding the Future of the Volunteer Fire Service · Fire Engineering Podcast

• Nat Kapustin: From MSA helmets and streamlight flashlights to seek thermal imaging cameras and so much more, the firestore.com has everything you need to serve your community safely and effectively. Hello there, my friends, and welcome to Fire Engineering's Podcast Network in this installment of the Professional Volunteer Fire Department. This is the podcast that is dedicated to our great volunteer fire service and getting everybody to embrace the message that developing and displaying and maintaining a professional image and a professional reputation, that's the duty and responsibility of all firefighters, paid or volunteer for that matter. Tom Merrill here. Thank you so much for listening to this podcast. I hope everything's going well out in your area. I've certainly been busy bombing around this great country of ours. I've been meeting so many great men and women in our fire service. I just got back recently from South Dakota, where I was honored to be invited again back to the South Dakota Firefighters Association annual conference. I want to thank Rick George and Taylor Moore and all the other great brothers and sisters out there for their wonderful. hospitality. We had a great conversation about our history, about our heritage, about our legacy, about remembering those who passed and made the ultimate sacrifice to get us where we are today. And that's my Forge by Fire presentation and I was honored to do that in South Dakota. I rolled that out a few years ago and it's really gaining traction and people are really appreciating that message and understanding that we have so much to be proud of in this fire service and so much to know and understand and understand our why, why things are the way they are, some of our traditions and our customs. And certainly, certainly we need to remember those who made the ultimate sacrifice and learn the lessons that are there that they passed on by their sacrifice. So that was a great trip out to South Dakota. I'll be bombing around New York State a little bit here in the last quarter of the year. And gonna be on the road. I think I'm already doing one or two presentations. actually it averages out to about one a month through the first half of next year already. So I just love it. I talk about it all the time. I I love getting out and meeting all of you, and so many of you share this professional message, and if you ever wanna See where I'm gonna be, you can go over to my website, the professional volunteerfiredepartment dot com. It lists my travels and if I'm ever out in your area, please love to meet ya. Stop on in and come join us and we can certainly have a good conversation. So it's because of all of you supporting this message that I have to thank you all for doing that and for encouraging me to continue and for listening into this podcast. I truly Truly appreciate it. And just as a reminder, the great FDIC conference, it'll be here before you know it because time is flying. I can't believe we're already in October. But FDIC 2027 is going to be April 12th to 17th. And that'll be in Indianapolis, of course. Housing just recently opened up, so head on over to FDIC.com for information and to get yourself registered to get yourself your hotel accommodations. And I'm gonna be back. at FDIC I'll be presenting my four hour signature presentation, the professional volunteer fire department. I'd love to invite you all to please stop in, please attend. I know many of you have been there and have listened to my message before, but I want to invite you back because I'm always revising it. I'm always adding information, updating information, usually provided by you, the listener, things that you come to your mind or that you've experienced and pass on to me and this year will be no different. lot of new stuff, a lot of things we can talk about and strategize on to deliver that professional message. So again, just want to encourage you, start making plans for FDIC twenty twenty seven, April twelfth to the seventeenth in Indianapolis. More information of course available at FDIC dot com. And remember housing did open up so you can get your name in there and register your people for accommodations. So never too early to do that. Never too early to do that. So again, thank you to all of you for listening in and joining me today. I I'm pleased to welcome onto the show Assistant Chief Mike Ledford. He is an assistant chief in the city of Wilmore Fire Department in Kentucky. He's a 20-year fire service veteran. He's currently, as I said, an assistant chief there, and he's a leader in our volunteer fire service. And he's committed to maintaining this professional image, this professional reputation that we talk about. And he's also committed to providing effective emergency services in his area. And throughout his entire career, he has emphasized the importance of training and accountability and leadership and continued professional development. We talk about that all the time. You get elected, you get appointed to a position. A leadership position, your learning doesn't stop. If anything, it ramps up. There's so much to know, so much to learn, and it never stops. And that's the trademark of a true professional right there. Understanding that, yeah, you might have the the leadership trumpets, not bugles, leadership trumpets on your collar, but you know what? You still gotta train and you still gotta educate yourself and you still gotta work hard every single day. To motivate, to inspire, to move your people forward, to stay on top of what's going on in our fire service. So Mike is passionate about our fire service. He's passionate about the future of the Volunteer Fire Service as well. And a few months ago, he sent me an article, a draft of an idea he had for an article that he wrote, and he asked if I would review it. And if it would be okay to maybe submit it to fire engineering, and I immediately said, Yes, by all means. Fire engineering is always looking for authors and I and articles and new ideas and people's thoughts on the fire service. So absolutely anybody out there, submit your articles and come up with some ideas. Put your thoughts into words. And that's what Chief Ledford did, and he sent it on to me. And I'm reading the agricultural. And it's the choice before us, deciding the future of the volunteer fire service. And as I'm reading it, I said to myself, you know, this is a worthy topic, a great topic actually, for my podcast, the professional volunteer fire department. So I invited him onto the show to talk about this proposed article, not even published yet, not even I don't even think it's been accepted yet, but I know it will be. But I wanted to pick his brain about his ideas for helping out our volunteer fire service. And for having the courage to make the hard choices maybe back home and institute the changes that are gonna help move our departments forward and s institute some changes that are gonna, you know, be in line with today's reality of how things are, how times are, and also embrace the professional brand. And that's what got my attention because he also focused on that word professional several times in the article. So I'm glad to have him on board and I want to welcome him to the show. Chief Ledford, thank you for joining me. Welcome, brother. Thank you, Tom. I I appreciate the opportunity to come on here and speak. Well, you had a lot of good points in the article. You had a lot of great thoughts about where our volunteer fire service is headed and also maybe how to make it thrive a little bit more than it is in so many areas of the country. Before we dive into the article, why don't you introduce yourself to the listeners? Tell a little bit about your background, what got you out of into the fire service? Are you born and raised in Kentucky? Tell us about your journey. well, like Tom said, I'm the assistant fire chief here at the city of Wilmore, Kentucky. I was I'm born and raised here, never lived anywhere else, despite my wife's best attempts to get us to Florida. we haven't I haven't caved yet. but I mean my my path in the fire service is is pretty straightforward. I'm I'm not following the footsteps of a long legacy. I was actually kind of lost at the end of high school trying to figure out what I was gonna do. maybe the military, some different degree programs. And what honestly, as as cliche as it may sound, we watched Lighter 49 in one of my classes. And I said, Well, maybe I'll look into this, you know, fireman thing, see what it's about. And I graduated in May and in August I was on the fire service or in the fire department, and that was twenty one years ago now, so it it got a hold, it took effect and and I've never looked back. That's so you know, your story shared by so many. For me it was the show emergency and that got me to you know, prompted me to look into my local volunteer fire department. So yeah, those those shows could certainly be a great recruitment tool for us, that's for sure. Yeah. now When you say get into the fire service, is is this a volunteer department? Is it a combination department that you belong to? We're we're volunteer. Our our guys do get a per cost stipend. you know, it's it's like most departments that do that. It's not a ton. but it's it's a little spending money in their pocket. but we you know, we don't staff our station. we do a couple of duty crews throughout the week. that was An idea we came up with, we pitched it to the guys. They seem to like it. so those Wednesday nights and Saturday afternoons we do have a single engine company staffed for I think we're doing four hours right now. guys come down, hang out, you know, take care of some truck checks, train a little bit and make runs that come in. But but no, we don't we don't staff. We're you know, we're a typical volunteer structured department. Yeah, yeah. But But you're trying new ideas such as this the some duty crews here and there. So hey, you're trying something. Tell me tell the listeners and myself a little bit about the department. How many members, how many runs, how big's your response area? so we cover I think we're two point six square miles is our primary jurisdiction. We we run mutual aid with our county fire department, you know, the areas around us. right now I think we have about Twenty two or twenty-five members on the roster. That's the recruiting is a big thing we've been we've been trying to take care of the last couple of years. So we've got some, you know, some good feedback on that. we run about this year we're probably gonna finish somewhere around six hundred to six hundred and fifty calls. we average anywhere from fifty to seventy a month. Just depends on how the month goes. two engines, one aerial, a squad. We operate out of one primary station. We have one satellite station for a a reserve apparatus. but yeah, that's and we're an all hazards department. we respond to anything and everything. we have a special operations team within the department for all of our technical rescue calls. but yeah, I mean, we're just a typical small town fire department. some de Some s other small towns say we're crazy busy. and I guess we are for a department our size. We we do run a lot, but but to us that's that's just the way it is. so do you run medical? We do, yeah. Are you a transport agency or just first response? No, no. No, we d we don't want anything to do with the ambulance game. we just we just do first response. Gotcha, gotcha. And Is it a w I know it's paid on call or you get a stipend per call, but other than that, one hundred percent volunteer, none of the senior leadership, it's not a career for anybody. No, sir. Okay. Okay. Very typical setup scene throughout the country, that's for sure. So you put pen to paper. That's my baby boomer way of wording it. you put pen to paper 'cause you had some pretty strong thoughts about the volunteer fire service and your s your your title certainly is an attention grabber, you know, the choice before us, deciding the future of the volunteer fire service. So i Chief in your mind, what in your t way of thinking, what is the biggest threat to today's volunteer fire service, to the volunteer fire service of twenty twenty six entering twenty twenty seven? What do you see it as? I think the biggest threat to the volunteer fire service is the volunteer fire service itself. And And what I mean by that is, and just as the article discusses, we we have a choice to figure it out, or the other option is to fade away. And in our department, fading away is just not an option. So we've got to learn, we've got to figure out how to take in the next generation and give them the opportunities that were given to all of us and just We've got to make it work. And I think departments and the volunteer fire service in general, if we want to maintain a continued future, and and that legacy of the volunteer fire service that we've had for so long, we've gotta find a way to make it work and we have to be open to new ideas. Easier said than done, I think. but Like you said, there's no other choice in your area. Now I have read articles. Matter of fact, I just read an article today about a volunteer fire department in New York State shutting their doors. In some cases, especially in populated areas, there's always someone that's gonna fill the void. That's not the case in a lot of areas of our country. You know, if they if if if doors shut down, there might not be anybody within a few miles that can absorb those calls for help. So it's not always a simple answer to shut the door down. It's you gotta get creative, you gotta think of new ideas and like you said, maybe figure out how to get this new generation, the next generation to step forward. So in your way of thinking, is volunteerism dying? Or do you think there's hope? It just takes embracing new ideas. What do you think? No, I don't I don't think volunteerism's dying. That's I think that's a common a common myth, shared especially amongst the internet and social media. I can tell you that our experience over the last two years, you know, we were facing the same recruiting challenges as everybody else. You know, we we would try to recruit and on a good year, you know, we simplified our whole recruiting process so that it it wasn't complicated and it wasn't, you know, a a time sink for somebody to to show interest in our department. And, you know, on a good year you know 10 or 12 interest forms maybe, you know, would get turned in. And of course, you're not gonna turn you're not gonna get 100% return on those interest forms. And between 2025 and this year's recruiting process, I think we've taken in 86 interest forms. And I believe it's just a matter of for we We spent a lot of time creating a culture that people want to be involved in. It's it's a culture in a department that guys, you know, talk about outside of our department. And we really started pushing our social media. There's there's nothing our department does that our community doesn't know about. because that's and using that tool. to push out a recruiting message, to push out what we're doing. You know, every training night gets put on on our Facebook page. You know, every, everything we do, public events, that it all gets put out there. So, and then we we, you know, we took the time to make a recruiting video and not not just us with with iPhones, because it would not have probably generated anything. but we've got some local folks that that are just fans of the fire service there. They love it. And you know, we worked with them in twenty, I believe it was twenty twenty-four, you know, made a recruiting video, had some of our brand new recruits, you know, in the video to talk about their their experience and going through the recruit academy. And then just this year we started to update it. you know, and make it a little more a little more modern. And we've had some some leadership changes and things that we we needed to be to To have reflected in there. And then we've also, you know, added other divisions and operations within the department that we wanted to showcase. But it's I think it's truly just a matter of of creating a culture that people want to be a part of and then putting it out there so that people can see that culture and you'll find those that want to come and be involved in it. Yeah, you're right. You know, sh show them what what you're all about. Absolutely. so important and so many companies are doing that now. I see more and more social media campaigns. you know, the old day of maybe just putting a billboard in front of the firehouse, I think is is certainly passed. I mean, it's not gonna hurt, but there's so much more you can do with today's modern ways of doing things to sell the message that hey, we're a professional organization, here's some of the things we're doing, and hey, we're always looking for members. Speaking of members, so tell me a little bit about this interest form. You have a membership of about twenty five members, yet you said you had eighty six hits, eighty six or eighty-five hits on this interest form. So how do we get those people to join? I mean, are they waiting in the wings or when they say they're interested, what what's the next step that you take? Yeah, so a few years ago we really decided to to spend some time and structure our recruiting process that, you know, the The ways from years ago where guys would just stumble into the firehouse by mistake and then they had a radio and a pager and a set of gear, you know, those guys just don't stumble in anymore. so you've got to go hunt them down and find them. And so we decided to really sit down and and structure our recruiting process and be able to tell people from the time they applied exactly what the timeline they were looking at. exactly what that process would look like. And then, you know, to get them from a new hire to to making calls. you know, we used to have a a typical application like any other job you would fill out. you know, we nixed that, we got rid of it. it was too cumbersome. People don't want to sit down and fill out a paper application for 30 minutes and dig through, you know, employment history and references. So we got rid of that. We made a Google form, you know, give us your name, your age, your address, your phone number, and your email. And that's all we need to work with to get started. Wow. so they fill that out. all those all those those interest forms go to the training officer and myself. He reaches out to all of them. I don't know that he does it individually. I think he does it in groups, you know, every few days. He'll email all the all those that have put in. And then we have a an informational night. And it's not required for those people to attend it, but we do offer it. And they come down and we give them, you know, a rundown of what Wilmore Fire Department does, who we are, a little bit about our history, and then we give them That inside look at, you know, this is what you're looking at doing in the recruit academy. And we always invite one of our most recent recruit academy graduates to come and speak to them to tell them about their experience. And, you know, and again, not every interest form is going to turn in to a candidate that gets brought on the department. But and not everybody who chooses not to attend the informational night, you know, is gonna completely leave your process. Sometimes it's just a scheduling conflict. So they come down, they go through a that informational night. And I think this year we had thirteen come for the informational night. And actually tomorrow night is their we do we do have a a physical agility test. We put them through just you know, basic movements, nothing nothing like a C pad or or anything like that. But they'll come down, they'll do that. we'll do a round of interviews. Unfortunately, you know, if we have twenty five people that come down, you know, we unfortunately can't take twenty-five people, just budget constraints like anybody else. We can't buy, you know, twenty five new sets of gear and twenty five radios and things like that. So Yeah, we'll go through an interview process and those that make it through the interview process with all of I think it's the bulk of the of the company officers and one of our senior firemen. They they kind of get ranked just like it's it's very similar to career department. We'll rank them, we'll shoot them all emails and job offers and if they wanna come come work for us and go through the academy, we'll we'll take now say the flip side of that is we do hold a very high standard for the guys in our department and this will be our fifteenth or sixteenth recruit class and we have yet to graduate one hundred percent of everybody we take on. Wow. So that is that's sometimes not a popular opinion. With the volunteer fire service and staffing the way it is sometimes. A lot of departments will take anybody that's willing to come down. and and we're not, you know, we do have a standard that's that's expected. And if the standard's not met, unfortunately we'll we'll cut them from our class. But but we've only had to do that twice out of all those years. It's it's not something that happens very commonly. But but yeah, it's like I said, it is structured, but we've we've seen a ton of success with it. And I think a lot of it is just that we can tell these folks, you know, on on this day, you're done and you're out of recruit class. So we actually we actually released them to start making runs about halfway through recruit class. so they can start responding to calls, getting on trucks, going out and getting some of that training in the field on on actual incidents. so we're able to give them that structured timeline. So it's not a they're not coming in. Wondering how long it's gonna take. Very interesting. Now does your department it sounds like you have to be an interior firefighter to stay as a member of your department. A lot of volunteer departments around the country open their doors to people that wanna drive or do exterior work. Sounds like in your case you gotta make it through the physical agility test and then f the the the proby class or the recruit class. So do you open your doors for people that maybe join and say, I don't want to fight a fire. I just want to drive or I want to stay outside or doesn't sound like that's what your department's doing? So we do have we've got a an older gentleman that, you know, he's just physically he can't do the interior work anymore. but he's a fantastic member. He can drive the trucks great. He can pump great. He loves doing maintenance and oddball jobs around the station. he's probably one of our busiest guys because he's always looking for something to fix, you know, 'cause if anything's broken, he needs to fix it. But he was at one time interior. He was at one time. So what if someone wanted to come in off the street, a little older in age, maybe just no desire to to put an air pack on, but say they want to drive a truck or Do you offer any of that type of membership or no? We've we've never had we've never had anybody approach us that way. I'm not willing to say that we would tell them no. I think there's value in if you can take somebody, especially in a driving and and pumping scenario, if you can take somebody and teach them to drive a truck and pump a truck, then that gives me one of my guys. that is comfortable going inside, that frees them up. They don't have to pump. They don't have to drive. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm not saying that that's something we would not consider. I think there I think there are value in positions like that. I know there's some departments that that bring in you know members that serve and they take care of budget things and accounting and bookkeeping. you know, we don't we've never had anybody approach us for that. If there's Anything the chief and I would probably gladly give up. It would be dealing with invoices and POs. Now it we've had a couple we've had a couple of people over the years ask about coming just to make medical calls. some of the folks that work on our our county EMS agency and we've been a hundred percent open to it. but then they just never came back, you know, looking to actually make that next step. So Yeah. So so it sounds like you're open minded. Yeah. Yeah. Which we have to be. Yeah, you do. And that's And that's the thing, you know, we have to be understanding that we do have to have guys that can go in and and make an interior fire attack. But there's also a lot of other jobs on the fi in the firehouse that have to get done. And and if that means having somebody come in who's maybe not interested in doing that, but they want to serve your department in some way, there's no harm and no foul in letting them serve that way. you know, the chief and I were just talking this morning about how incredibly busy we are outside of our full time jobs, just because of the demands of the department. And if we had a flood of people that wanted to come in and take care of of PO's and and paperwork, I'd I would imagine we would give our offices to them and they could run wild with it. But Unfortunately we're the ones doing it right now. So Yeah, the old expression, many hands make light work. So you know, I I as I've been around the country, as I've talked to people on the podcast and as I travel, yes, there are departments employing those types of models. We've talked about in the show before. whether it's driving or whether it's what that some departments call administrative membership where people join to maybe pay they even to be a treasurer or something like that. The bottom line is And and you said it is you're open minded to those ideas, which I think you have to be in this day and age. And like the more people, the better it is. It lightens the workload. Now, tell me a little bit about the recruit academy. Is that like a a certified firefighter one training class that they're going through? Or is it your own in house recruit class? So it is a it's an in house academy. in Kentucky we have we have state level certifications you can get in addition to You know, your FSAC one and two. so there is a Kentucky, there's a Kentucky one and two levels that you can get. So we're one of the, from what I'm told, by I believe it was our state fire commission auditor who comes down and and takes care of our audit every year for our training hours. we're one of the few non-career departments in the state that offers a full certified academy. from start to finish. So if the if guys show up and and they are they're here every night and and we have some we build in some days, you know, towards the end to make up some classes for folks because life happens, you know, and and there's nothing you can do to plan for that a lot of times. So we typically add in a couple of days to do some makeup classes. But if g if they show up and they get all their hours, they will graduate our academy with their first level of their Kentucky firefighter certification. And how long is that Academy usually? we typically do we have we found that the sweet spot is one day a week for Five five months I think. They throw in a few a few hand or a few eight hour Saturdays. and there's some state fire commission classes that are required in Kentucky, like flashover and firefighter survival. We have to kind of just work those in based on the the state's availability to to have those props available for us. But but it's about five months and usually around the two and a half to three month mark, our members are released from the They're not they don't graduate Academy, but they're released to go ahead, start making runs. They can come down on duty cruise and and hang out with the duty crew and jump on trucks and and start getting some experience before they graduate the academy. So very good. So already here your mindset about the volunteer fire service is different than some. You've done away with the membership application. You you solicit this you've had them fill out this interest form. But you bring in, you talk to them about, hey, if this is something you want to do, here's what we can offer for you. And then you bring them on board and right away you got Training and in your article, I I loved your your one line, the mindset that we're only volunteers and doing the best we can must change. And and getting to know you a little bit and getting to know your department a little bit and reading this article, I think that that's the mindset of the department leadership. and then you had another I'm gonna be quoting you because you had some great lines in that article. The other one I loved and it segues into it so well from we're we're only volunteers and doing the best we can. You say volunteer service is our staffing model. It's not an excuse to lower the standard. What do you mean by that? Yeah, I mean that's and and I've you know, I've had the pleasure of listening listening to you speak. several times. and and one thing that that really resonates with me the last two times I've listened to you speak at the the NVFC conference is you talk about, you know, fire departments getting on social media or firemen and tearing each other down. And and that that doesn't that doesn't solve anything. And and I wholeheartedly agree. But one of the things that I always see in the comments when I look into those videos is Well, we're just doing we're just volunteers and we're doing the best we can. And that just absolutely drives me up a wall. because just just as I said in that article, you know, we're a volunteer department, but that's that's how our staffing model is set up. That does not dictate our standard, at all. And and when we say, you know, we're doing the best we can, you know, and that that's just absolutely not true. You know, if we were doing the best we can, and this is the fire service in general, you know, we wouldn't miss victims on primary searches and we wouldn't have firemen calling maydays from poor decisions and we wouldn't lose houses because of poor apparatus placement and poor first line of or first initial attack line choices. You know, when when we take the mindset that we're doing the best we can, then we're eliminating that idea that we can be better than we are today. And and that's just not acceptable. That's we build that amongst our department, amongst our members. We are we are never as good as we should be. And and I it I can't I hate it when I hear people say we're just doing the best we can. And and that's just not true because no matter what it is, you know, stretching lines, driving trucks, rope rescue, you name it. We're not doing the best we can. We can always be doing better. And and I think that just that's just a mindset that has to change is that being being a volunteer department somehow offers the ability to not hold ourselves to the same standard that any career department would. you know, my community deserves a department that is working to be as best as we can. And we're gonna come in and train Thursday night to be better than we were the last training night. And it's not because that's just what we should do. That's what this community deserves from us. Yeah, so talk to me about the importance of training. You obviously place a priority on training, training to be as good as you can be, to be better than you were last week. It's all about training. Training is one of the strongest points. blocks in the foundation of a professional organization. So how important is training to your department and what do you do to hold your people accountable? Do you have minimum standards? Do you obviously you clearly establish that expectation when they join, but tell me about your department's training mantra. Yeah, so so we do have a a minimum standard. So the state of Kentucky has a minimum standard of twenty hours to maintain your certification. that was just not enough, you know, for us. So we have our guys and and I've been I've been told directly by other firemen that this is stupid and we're killing our membership, but we require our members to do 60 hours a year. Now we teach in house over 200 hours of training a year. And our training budget is I think our third largest, you know, line item on the budget. And our training officer will send people anywhere to do any class that they want to do. you know, and he pays for me to go to the N V F C conference. You know, that comes out of his training budget. But it's gotta be, it has to be a priority. We, you know, I'm not I'm I may get shunned from the fire service for saying this. I can't remember who said it, but the saying that we can't train enough for a job that can kill us is absolutely true. not only do not only do the fellow members of the department need to be confident in the people that they're riding the truck with. But again, the people in the community don't care about anything else when we're going to their house that's on fire. They're they don't care about the certificates on the wall. They don't care about the public service hours we've given. All they care about is can we show up and do the job that needs to be done? And the only way we're gonna be confident in doing that is by training. Training. One of the pillars of the professional foundation. You hear us talk about it all the time. And as you put together your professional operation, that's obviously so important to your department and you've had great success at it. You also talk about this professional image and how it can be shaped in some other ways as well. Why is the department image so critical to you? And what are some of the things that you're doing? What are you instituting in your department to portray? the professional image above and beyond your response and your competency at calls. I mean, the same as a a job interview. You know, as soon as you walk in, whoever's interviewing you is starting to form their opinion of of you, whether they're consciously doing it or not. And and our image to the public is the same thing. You know, when we when we leave our station and, you know, big red, hopefully shiny fire trucks, they're I don't it doesn't matter where you're going, you're being looked at. And how we look and how we present ourselves matters to a lot of people. And you know, we're for departments that especially departments that, you know, if they have to fundraise that that image that you generate and give to the public, I I worry that that can that can sway people on whether they donate to your departments or not. And And that that's concerning if if we don't want to look the part, then it's gonna create doubt that we want to put in the work to actually be able to perform our duties. And because if you ask, you know, an average lay person walking down the street, you know, what does a professional fireman look like? They're gonna, you know, they're polished boots, clean uniform, they're probably gonna say something about a mustache, even though I can't have one. I can't grow one. and they're gonna talk about clean, shiny trucks with shiny chrome on it. And it it's because the image that we portray of ourselves is what the public is gonna take back with them. And how we act when we when we respond to calls, you know, people remember that stuff. And and that image is just it's it's so important to, you know, I think it sways public trust. I think it sways the opinions of your district or municipalities leadership. I think it's incredibly important. And and it's just something and it's typically one of the lowest cost item things that we can correct. If if we need help and we want to be more professional, I think it's one of the quickest and easiest things we can fix and it'll make a world of difference. And both those things that we've talked about in the last ten minutes, training. as well as presenting a professional appearance. Doesn't matter what your department's budget is. Doesn't matter how many members you have. These are things that there's n there's no obstacles to those. Right. To hold yourself to that standard. Training and how you present yourself. And your competency on the fire ground is obviously so important or at the emergency scene, let's say. But what about when you're out interacting with the public? All of us every day are out in our community. We have an chance to make an impression, to make an impact on our department's reputation and by extension the fire service reputation in our everyday interactions with members of the public. Out at the school event, shopping in town, out at a restaurant, walking your dog, whatever it is, you are your department's image, your department's reputation. And folks, you hear me say it all the time, and Chief, I'm sure you agree with me, just be kind and nice and treat people respectfully because by extension you're impacting your department's professional image as well. Yeah. And once they know you're on that fire department, that's that's front and foremost in their mind every time they see you. Is that hey, that's that guy from the fire department. That's the same reason when bad news stories come out about firemen, it leads with, you know, firefighter, whatever has done whatever. You know, that as soon as people know that, that's that's forever your identity. Very, very inexpensive way to to build that professional brand, that is for sure. You dive also in the article into leadership. and how leadership plays a part in this professional equation. Tell me your views on leadership. What can our volunteer fire department leaders do to not just build the professional brand, but to enhance morale and get the most out of their people and create this high performing team? Yeah, I mean I think I think on any team and especially in the fire service, leadership is gonna, you know, make or break your culture. I truly think culture starts with the people that sit at the top of an agency. And and how they interact with the people in their department is going to trickle down and how the department members interact with each other. You know, we you know one of the things the chief likes to do every year, towards the end of the year is and and and myself and him included, we he gets out a piece of paper and he writes down Or we have to give him goals that we want to achieve. And he writes those goals down. And if I come to him and say, you know, hey, this is the support I need to achieve this goal, he's going to go out of his way to make sure that that support is given to me. And and the same as our our company officers, you know, they're if if there's something they're looking to achieve, if there's a certification they're looking you know, to to earn their as far as we're concerned, there are no obstacles other than just the willpower to do it. And I think when you when you roll downhill like that with that buy in to not only the department mission, but the goals that individuals want to achieve, that spreads through your department and becomes the norm. And, you know, our guys I d I don't care if it's somebody one day out of recruit class or a guy that's been on twenty years. If you have an idea that you think's gonna make us more effective or efficient, we wanna hear about it. And and if if it's an idea that we think's gonna work, not only are we gonna support you, but you're gonna spearhead that idea and we'll give you what you need to achieve it. and I think I think that's one of the best and easiest ways to invest in your department is to invest in the individual goals of your members. But the only way you know that is if you ask them what their goals are. Wow. And I think that speaks a lot for leadership. If if I'm willing to sit down and talk to the newest guy and say, what do you want to achieve over the next year? And how can I get you there? You know, that's And and I will put that stuff ahead of what I want to achieve. You know, the the first year I went to the NBFC in Salt Lake City, I fought my chief about going because I didn't want to spend the money on myself when there were other guys that were looking to go do training. so we we battled back and forth about that. But but I really think I really think leadership starts inside the firehouse with identifying the goals and the needs of your individual members as individuals and then together you can work on figuring out the goals and the mission of the department. Well said. Wow. A lot to unpack there for sure, but the bottom line is you're putting ego aside, you're putting your trumpets aside and you're in this together. Just because you're the chief or assistant chief or a captain doesn't always mean you have the answers. Right. Be in tune with what your members want. What are they thinking? How are they seeing things? And just have a nice conversation with people. But boy, does that show you're invested in them? Does that show that you are concerned about what they s what they want, what they need? Does that show that you are in tune with your department? Very well said. Kudos to your department for that. And you you you also talk about the old style retro style leadership and that just doesn't work at all in today's environment, in today's culture. That the world has changed. So how do we change to meet today's firefighters, today's volunteer firefighters? If if the retro way of doing things isn't working, are there new ideas, things we should be doing when it comes to staffing models? training, flexibility, or or taking care of our members today. Yeah. I mean, when it comes to bringing in, you know, new new people to our department, I worry that a lot of chiefs look and and they'll see somebody and if they don't if they don't have an upbringing that was similar to their own, then they automatically assume they can't they're not gonna make it in the fire service. When I look at people that come into our department and they fill out our interest forms, I don't care what your background is, I don't care what your political stance is, I don't care what your hobbies are, I don't care about any of that. I'll love to learn about it. But what I want to know about is do you want to come serve our community? And if you do, I'll take you however you want and we'll get you there. you know, it's the classic. Phillips head versus flathead screwdriver and you know, kids don't know the difference or they can't start a chainsaw. I'm not worried about any of that. I can I can teach all that. I all I need is is a willingness to serve and learn. And we'll work out everything else beyond that. Yeah. And and obviously too, you have some ideas about today's schedules and people b busy. Tell us about your staffing program that you instituted. How's that working out for you? Is that something new or you've been doing it for a while now? No, so the duty crew program, I think we're on year number two. And and at first it was we we really just developed it initially because we looked at our our call statistics and we found the two busiest times that calls were coming out. And we picked four hour blocks of time and we said, okay, these are gonna be duty crews. And guys can sign up, they'll make a little stipend, we'll they'll get the opportunity to train some more. You know, it was just it was just a way for guys to to go to the firehouse and be firemen. There is really the main thing behind it. And we've slowly this year we've we've decided that. You know, like I said, we're a small town. We're we're two point six square miles. we have about six thousand full-time residents. So it's hard to recruit in a town our size. But what we found, you know, over the years is that we would get a ton of interest from people that lived outside our town. So instead of this year, instead of turning these folks away. If they're willing to come to our firehouse and give time to our community, then I want to find a way to capitalize on that. So we have a program now where our members can choose, you know, kind of the standard they want to meet. We have our run volume, which is just our our typical, you know, guys are at home, radio goes off, they make the run. And then we offered a program where people that live outside of Wilmore. can join the department, they can come to our training, they can be members, and they just work, they just sign up for the duty shifts and they come down and work the duty shifts when they can. And and if that's if that puts people in our station and that puts people in our community ready to go and make calls, I feel like we would be crazy to turn away from them. You know, if if they're willing to drive that little bit of distance to hang out for a few hours, we'll invest in And and if, you know, one of the arguments I've heard in the past is like, well, they just leave in a year or two years and they go somewhere else. And if they do, they do. And, you know, we we take pride and we had a little bit of of getting them to that spot and they'll go serve another community. And I think that's great. you know, it It it stinks to lose people, but that's that's the natural process of of the business. And we're not gonna hang our heads 'cause we invested in someone and got two or three good years and then they go to help another community. I think another thing I read in the article and closely related there, it's when you're competing for people, especially their time, you've gotta stand out and offer something that's rewarding and fulfilling. What are you What are you doing to offer your prospective members something that's rewarding and fulfilling? Obviously you're offering some flexibility there. Are there other things you're doing? It's creating excitement for them. Yeah, well, I mean, so we we have what's called a well, I'm sure it's probably common to be called this what we call it our fireman's fund. So our members all get paid once a month and twenty-five dollars from everybody's check. goes into the fireman's fund and and that's the fireman's money. if they want to buy an Xbox to put at the station, they take a vote on it, they want it, they we buy it, we've it goes in the station. you know if they want to a Blackstone's been a hot topic here lately. so the chief and I decided that the fireman fund will will keep their money. We will buy a black stone out of the budget put the station for them. but yeah, I mean it's it's and I I I th it all goes back to that culture. You know, if you're if you're not creating a place at the firehouse that people wanna be, then people won't be there. It's you know, we've went through years of that. You know, when I first came to Wilmore, there wasn't a great culture. And and by no means am I the saving grace that turned that around. It was a lot of people over several years working really hard. you know, but now I I'm sure if I drove down to the station tonight, there there's people hanging out down there. It, you know, it's it's a place people want to be. And and I think when we get people in in our recruit academy and they start being involved with our department, and then our senior members start jumping in, you know, they're our our recruits are overtaking a water break, and then you've got senior guys over there leaning into you know, giving tips and tricks on how to how to do something a little better or a little faster, you know, and then they end up forming study groups and the senior guys come down, you know, on non-training nights to work with them, or they start inviting them to come down and and hang out with them on duty crews and jump those calls. I think it starts to build not only that culture, but you start to get that camaraderie, that brotherhood and And as, you know, so many fire service leaders have talked about, it's it's a level of brotherhood you can't find anywhere else. Mm-hmm. You know, so once once they get exposed to that, what I hope it does is the same thing it did to me, is it it grab holds and and never lets go. And and, you know, every year we send people from, you know, from our department somewhere else in the country. They move and and I I love it. I love that our small department is is leading leading folks into a service that they can take with them somewhere else. Absolutely. Lifelong skills they'll take wherever they go in life. What's your take on the new generation stepping into the firehouse today? I love it. I you know, I'm I'm slowly finding myself getting to the to the point where I I occasionally start to struggle with technology. So I have to get one of my younger guys to come you know, fix the TV or something. but I I look at it as it's it's not just a a younger generation that's coming in the fire service. It is a whole new outlook on life and leadership in general. It's a whole different set of skills. And it's a generation that was a lot smarter than the previous generation because I was that generation. And you know, we were still kind of dumb when I got in the fire service. I you know, but the kids these days they're they're so much smarter. They they can pick up things quickly. But I I think the bigger challenge is you have to constantly for those first several months give them a reason on why they want to be there and why they want to put that effort in. And that's where it falls back to that culture. And that brotherhood and that team mentality, because you know, I think the j the new generation wants to be a part of a team. They want to be a part of something bigger. But you can't you can't drill them as an individual new in the firehouse and not give them that exposure to the to the bigger mission and the bigger brotherhood and the bigger teamwork. That is within the fire service. And let's face it, they're gonna be our future leaders. Absolutely. You're not you're not gonna be in that seat forever. And you outline in the article some of your ideas for how to develop these younger members to be a future leader in the organization. What are some of your thoughts on that? I think you have to give them you have to give the opportunity to be a leader. you know, all all too often, you know, I hear stories or Or hear people talk about, you know, a chief with an iron grip on their fire department. You know, they're they're the only ones that can do this or they're the only ones that can do that. My chief and I will we'll delegate almost a hundred percent of if somebody comes to us and wants to learn how we do something, you know, we'll teach There's there are no secrets in our office, you know, outside of a personnel issue. We we are not gatekeepers of anything. I can do everything the chief does on his day-to-day task, and he can do everything I can do. And and there's captains that can do what we can do. You know, there is a there's a continuity of that leadership there that if one of us is is absent or gone, the department's not gonna miss a beat. And I think the only way you achieve that. is you've got to give people the opportunity to lead. And and one thing that that we're very big on is, you know, we've got we have a university, two large nursing homes, and a seminary in our jurisdiction. so we we make a lot of fire alarms, a lot of burnt popcorn and burnt food on the stove at the dorms. And if if I get there after the first new engine, And that lieutenant or that captain has instant command, it it it is not expected that I'm gonna show up and just assume command and take it from him. if he's got the show handled and he's running it, I I sit back, I be a resource. now if he wants me to take it, depending on the situation, I will. Sometimes I make them keep it and work their way, you know, through whatever the challenge is. but I'm I'm not here to to be the only one that can that can run instant command and and be in leadership. That's that's a department wide skill with us. And you know, we don't know, you know, you may or may not get a chief when a call comes out. You know, it may be three firemen on a truck and somebody's gotta step up and be the leader during that call. And fortunately, we don't struggle with that. gals will will step up and and they'll do their job and but yeah, we don't you know I think the biggest the biggest part of it is just don't be a gatekeeper. Let people learn. Yeah, and don't be afraid to let learn. Right. W what your very a line that really impacted me from this article was you said people don't leave volunteer fire departments because the work is hard. They leave because the culture makes their sacrifice no longer worthwhile. We have to get better at developing leaders, planning for the future, and investing in our younger members. Man, that's a great, great thought process. What did you mean when you put that down? What what what was your message to the to the reader? Well, I mean being a fireman is hard. This This is hard, tough, physically demanding work, typically in the volunteer service at the most inconvenient times. And who wants to come work that hard for people they don't feel like cares about them? it it to me it's just a simple concept. If I'd I've worked for bad leaders, I've I've had bad fire service leaders and And I swore I would never be that way. but it's it's real hard to ask people to come out at, you know, 3 a.m. and work five or six hours really hard to go back home, shower, and then go to their full time job and then not treat them with the respect and give them a culture and a firehouse and a team that they can be proud to be a part of. Not only the hard work in sacrificing sleep, but y time, time away from your family, even just to go to that training drill or the many details we have at the firehouse to go up and clean something up or fix something or go to a community detail. All of that takes time. So members are sacrificing time in addition to the hard work. But if they're not respected, they're not treated well, they're not they're they're not made to feel like a valued member, let's face it, most everybody brings some value to the team. Right. The leader needs to bring that out in them. And if the leaders dismiss them, you know what? They're not gonna show up. They're not gonna be willing to participate and help out. And you know, now instead of having extra hands around, you're not gonna have those hands. So that is something to be aware of for sure. Yeah. I mean, and and there's, you know, I've got I've got two, you know, not young, but younger kids. And my daughter is incredibly active in soccer. and and I miss things at the firehouse sometimes, you know. And that's that's part of it. and I think we have to we have to build a culture that, yes, we need you to come. We need you to come ride trucks. We need to respond to calls. But also you're not the only person on the department either. And and I think sometimes departments get it wrong kind of from the get-go, and that it is you have to be here every call, every training, you need to be in this firehouse. And that's just that's just not the world we live in. you've got to be flexible with people. And and they've got to understand that the firehouse it's okay that it's important, but it doesn't have to run your life either. And and I think we we have to focus on building that culture that that it's okay to not be here because it's a lot of times it's equally important to be present somewhere else than it is to be at the firehouse. You know, I was I was on vacation all of last week. of course, I came back to a ton of stuff that needs to be done, both here and at my full time job. And unfortunately I'll be traveling again this weekend for a soccer tournament you know, down to Tennessee. So I'm pushing off on the chief everything I can. But yeah, I mean it's I think it's a balance and I think that when we bring in new members, we've got to We've got to make sure we're spending time talking about and be okay with a balance of of life outside the firehouse as well. Yeah. And I think some departments really struggle with that. And members sometimes can really struggle with that. But you're so right, it's important. It's a dichotomy there for sure. But it i it it is so important to have the balance. And I dare say though v those of us that came in in the eighties and those before me in the seventies and that I I don't think they recognize that as much as we do today. Right. So that definitely is a is important there. So some some really good thoughts you had there, Chief, in your proposed article, the the choice before us deciding the future of the volunteer fire service. A lot of good ideas. I love that you know, setting those expectations right from the beginning. Very interesting with the information form, no formal application. Just hey, do you wanna be part of us? Tell us your name and give us a phone number and we'll talk. And then you take the take it from there to do the background, but establish those expectations. That's called, you know, clear communication, you know, right? And and in the training, a focus on training. Training is an expectation. Obviously, your hours far exceed the minimum standards there in the state of Kentucky. So that says about a lot of your mindset on training and training leads to competency and competency on the fire ground leads to a professional image as far as how you handle emergency situations. And then the image and how important it is to look like a professional. Chief John Salka said it once, one of my mentors, who I just idolized when I was a young officer and always read his stuff and proud to call him a friend today, but he says it so well. There's just something more professional about looking like a professional. So again, even though we're volunteers, even though saying it I'm not saying it to degrade the volunteer, but even as volunteers, we could throw a sweatshirt on, a baseball cap, we can look presentable when those tones drop and we show up at somebody's call for help. And then leadership, leadership recognizing that Maybe the styles from yesteryear aren't going to work with today's environment, with people's different just a different family atmosphere today, different just a different makeup of society. Be flexible, be understanding, develop the future leaders, work with the new people. I love how you said, you know, they might not be able to start a chainsaw or change the oil in a piece of equipment. But you know what? We'll teach them that. I just want to know that they're willing and able to help the community and we'll tell how to do the rest. We'll teach how to do the rest. Great ideas there. And then build the culture. Build the culture inside the firehouse. Be warm. Be welcoming. Be understanding. So many, so many good points, in your thought process. Is there anything else you'd like to share with the listener before We sign off anything I didn't think of or we didn't talk about today that's important to you. I don't think so. I think it's it's really I think it really boils down to creating a positive culture in your firehouse, spending a little time making sure we're putting out that professional image that the community expects of us and be willing to train for the job that you said you would do. And I think if you take care of those three things, everything else comes comes pretty naturally. Very good. Chief, if somebody wanted to get a hold of you to talk about how you do things in the city of Wilmore or had questions that I didn't think of, could you share your contact information with our listeners? Yeah. So the easiest way to get a hold of me is by email. And that is Ledford L E D F O R D at Wilmore.org. And that's W-I-L-M-O-R-E. So that's my department email. I promise I'm on it 20 times a day. so if if you email me, I'll I'll see it and and certainly reach out. And and if we need to set up a Teams call, a phone call, you know, anything we can do at Wilmore to To help anybody anywhere, you let us know and and we'll we'll help do anything we can. And any of the listeners out there share your ideas. Send me an email. don't be afraid to write an article and submit an article to fire engineering. they're always looking for good articles and you know, there's always things to write about. And the chief came up with several several great points. in it his article here and I just wanna end here with it was your wrap up line it and I I I just thought it was so perfect to to end this podcast. Folks, Chief Ledford says it here the volunteer fire service has survived wars, economic downturns, and changing technology. It can survive the next generation as well. But only if we as volunteer fire service leaders Choose evolution over tradition. Change over, we've always done it this way, and progression over being happy with mediocrity. I worry the time to make that decision is slowly dwindling away. The time to act and make those decisions is now. And with that being said, it's too easy to say the demise of the volunteer fire service is here, I'm done, I quit. There's things you can do. And we just outlined several in this presentation today. Chief, thank you so much for joining me, brother. It's been an honor talking to you, and I look forward to more great conversations with you down the road. Yes, sir. I appreciate you letting me come on. Thank you so much. Chief Mike Ledford, Assistant Chief from the City of Whitmore, or sorry, Whitmore Fire Department in Kentucky, talking about his ideas, his article, proposed article. Watch for it. It will be coming. The choice before us. Deciding the future of the Volunteer Fire Service. Thanks again for listening in. If anybody wants to reach out to me, share your ideas, share your thoughts, let me know what you're thinking of writing. TA Merrill63 at AOL.com. T A Merrill63 at AOL.com. check out my Professional Volunteer Fire Department Facebook page, my Instagram, my X account, my website, the Professional Volunteer Fire Department.com. It's got all sorts of information of where I'm gonna be, who I'm gonna be talking to, and you can check it out. And thank you so much for listening in. And don't ever hesitate to contact me if you need anything at all. Thanks so much for listening in. Thank you so much for supporting the professional message. And remember folks that true professionalism is never defined by a paycheck. And your residence or owed professional service that's delivered by professional Firefighters representing a professional organization. Thank you very much. Stay safe.